Hey buddy I like your thinking behind this, however, I believe you have overlooked a key aspect to the design of this synchronous motor, if you observe the little metal tabs on the casing of the motor that the coil sits into you will notice that the bottom of the metal has tabs little metal tabs sticking up that the magnetic rotor runs past and on the top side of the metal encasing the motor it has little metal tabs sticking down which the rotor turns past, the reason for this is that the alternating magnetic poles line up with those little tabs, the north will line up with the bottom and the South will line up with the top and it transfers the magnetic field from the sides of the rotating magnet to the top and bottom of the magnetic coil making the face of the magnetic coil North and the other face South as it alternates as it spins around, so the housing of the motor is crucial to the design aspect of its workings, just thought I would share a little insight that I have discovered from playing with these motors and studying the design construction
yep,the devils in the details as they say, in hindsight its now clearer, ;-) i bet it was optimised by a toy maker, you can learn a lot about cost and reduced materials use from them iv found
@@paulmaydaynight9925 yep, that's why all industrial runs on 3 phase, is most efficient out of any other system, and it high voltage 480, so the efficiency is even greater, we have a saying in the industry, " the higher the volts, the lower the bill" it's the most efficient and powerful and it works just the opposite for generation which is why all the hydro and wind turbines are 3 phase
Yoke "Description: A magnet that induces a magnetic field in the area of a part that lies between the poles. Yokes may be permanent magnets or electromagnets. Permanent Magnet Yoke - A body which possesses the ability to retain or hold a large amount of the applied magnet field after the active power of the field is removed." im not sure that 'Description' describes the basic action for better understanding, id say its more the left/right flipping of the temp induced trailing magnetic field in the steel as a consequece of rotation perhaps. as eric put it, the tea is always trailing the spoon as you stir it... oc now the thought pops in the head ,modified cost reduced wimshurst frame with coil and steel sheet with many bent thickend tabs over and intersecting the pole, double the output by also using the other pole by winding the coil with a space etc...
@@paulmaydaynight9925 yes and as I've studied this effect I also came to a great realization when I understood that in certain circuits or certain scenarios and in inductive circuits voltage will lead current, and in resistive circuits current will lead voltage, and in capacitive inductive resistive they can be tuned to a desired phase differential which can actually eleminate the Lenze effect almost entirely
Hola Robert. Te felicito por los buenos experimentos y los valiosos análisis que realizas. Aunque en este caso en especial creo que perdiste de vista que en el pequeño motor hay dos núcleos, superior e inferior a la cubierta de la bobina y con aletas entrelazadas de manera que al girar los imanes permanentes en el centro, con plano paralelo a la bobina inducen campos magnéticos opuestos simultáneamente a las aletas que son parte de cada una de las láminas de hierro al silicio de los núcleos y estos a su vez aplican el campo magnético inducido a la bobina perpendicularmente. Que tal si vuelves a hacer la prueba tomando en cuenta esa característica que considero super importante en este tipo de diseño.
Fun stuff!! It will be interesting to see how multiple parallel windings ( and hence reduced total coil resistance) change the power output. It also would be nice if you had the luxury of a magnet replacement module, that would allow you to easily try different combinations of magnet polarities.
'Why are you smiling?" 'Because, I know something you don't know" 'And what is that?" 'i am not left handed..." Dread Pirate Roberts and Enigo Montoya - Princess Bride
I also know he carefully concealed the pole pieces of the coil. The coil have 4 pairs of poles. 4 on the top plate, and 4 on the bottom plate that he very quickly removed from view after removing the coil. Fake science video trying to make it appear that the coil alone can create torque on the 8 pole rotor magnet without pole pieces. Then he conceals the magnet assy in the large coil. I see others spotted this too. Congrats some know how these motors actually work. Not sure to attribute this to malice or ignorance on the subject.
@@undernetjack Thanks for the reference. I had to look it up. If I was young and could get ROI on the investment in school, I would consider that, but hard study and certifications work fine for engineering jobs. Nearing retirement, so university would be an expense with too little returns. Investing instead to increase my dividends as much as possible. Hope to reach $2500/month before I retire. Should be there in 5 years.
It's a unusual setup in comparison to standard motor based orientation of coils and magnets. Usually there is also 2 coils or multiples of 3. In this design, apart from what Paul has said about magnetic fields passing through the steel, I think you have to look at magnetic flux, this usually occurs in the 4 corners of the magnet and each flux rotates counter to its neighbours. Howard Johnson was a pioneer in magnetics and until recently not enough forward learning has been done. This motor works because of the flux movement in the magnet and it's distance to the coil. The coil is also thinner and thicker (maybe I should have said narrower and wider) The bobbin possibly has a thin ferrite ring within the inners where the ring magnet sits. Great video Rob, I might try a few versions of this myself.
Robert -- as others have alluded to, your understanding would _really_ jump ahead if you studied up a bit on magnetic circuits. By itself, the coil in the small synchronous motor produces a field parallel to its axis, which would impose zero net force on the rotatable magnet. You have set up the reverse of that, and discovered the expected -- the rotating magnet induces almost no voltage or current in the winding. The key is that in the motor there is a magnetic circuit, consisting of the top and bottom plates, each with fingers that extend into the region around the rotatable magnet. Those fingers "conduct" the north- and south-pointing fluxes into the area around the magnet, and their interleaving produces a N-S-N-S pattern around the magnet. In addition, since the current itself alternates in time, those fingers of flux alternate N-S-N-S in time as well. The result is that the magnet sees around it a rotating N-S-N-S... pattern, to which is is drawn and thus persuaded to rotate. At least once it gets started. At any rate, applying this to your generator, you would need to set up a similar pattern of two magnetically susceptible plates (one each side of the coil) with fingers that the magnet poles pass by, and which conduct the pulses of magnetic flux to either one plate or the other, so that you actually achieve an alternating axial field through the coil. Then you'll get a far more robust result!
Slight problem. The round magnet has multiple alternating poles, and the metalwork (looks like prongs) guides the alternating magnetic field to each face of the coil. One set of prongs leads to the plate on one side of the coil and another set (interleaved with the first set) leads to the plate on the other side. The prongs and plates make the magnetic circuit. Each plate gets an alternate north / south through the 'prongs' from the multi-pole magnet, as it rotates, when use as a generator.
That's a great video mr. Smith. I was playing around with one of those the other day and I seem to remember the spindle in mine was like a ball and socket. I also seem to remember that it had North and South Poles Half & Half facing the coil. I may be mistaken but that's the way I remember it working.
That is quite interesting. I think you'd get a better output if you were to alternate the magnets, so the poles are perpendicular to the plane of the coil, and affix a series of C shaped iron pieces such that the coil was surrounded by them with the gaps nearly touching the magnets, and spaced such that only one polarity of magnets were between the gaps in the C's. That way there's a coilwide change in the flux as the the fields in the iron peices and in free air changes with the change in polarity of the magnets sweeping by.
1. Yes, the resistance is large and the distance of those magnets is too big. 2. I've got an old training bike in the shed, once will clean up moving my rooms, can take it out :D as well and play with it. I'd try multi-level magnets. What I mean by that is to use one layer of magnets for one coil, and make several of these that in one turn we have at least 3 phases :). We can use capacitors to charge and even MOSFETs from old electronics to switch. Not once capacitors are charged enough, they can release energy to the battery and be ready to charge again. I've got a bunch of old HDDs that I can take apart for magnets. Some of them were even bought to do so years back. This way there's much less loss IMHO. And if we'd be able to use those layers + phases, that potentially can increase the efficiency.
Robert yet again you are onto something different and very interesting. Some years back I chanced upon some videos related to free energy systems, and the thing you are now experimenting with now look quite a bit like a type of motor John Newman had designed. It also looks like something Gerard Morin was demonstrating on another video. Both with fascinating results. Thanks for this insert.
it would be nice to add a car alternator to this "exercise bike" and use the charge from the magnet to "activate" the alternator. i wonder what they could generate combined ??
Great idea to explore this arrangement, after watching one of your vids on the turntable motor a few months back, I turned the rotor with a drill and I was able to dimly light a 240v lightbulb, ac voltage was well over 50v. If I had a suitable high building I'd have explored a gravity battery.
I would love to see first the arrange of the magnets north South north, South, and maybe try the same thing, but with the serpentine coil which im a fan because of you. Cheers!
If you refer to microwave motor you will notice the metal sheald which transfer magnet fields around the coil, if you try that there will be improvement of volts
Generating electricity is fun. I created and stored some solar power gathered from LEDs instead of solar cells. Not useful as power generation, but I understood energy harvesting and how larger systems work a lot better afterwards, while only needed basic components and a multimeter.
I would really like to see a video on taking electrical measurements. You frequently measure open circuit voltage and short circuit current to judge the power output of a device. This seems counter intuitive to me. I'm not questioning your understanding of it, just curious to know if the measurement is an accurate representation of the power being generated. I have also been told that this measurment technique can be used to help derltermine the optimal load. That's really cool if it is true!
Hey Robert, over the years of tinkering I have been pleasantly surprised at how many things fit other things, it seems that due to standard sizes already used designers tend to continue to use standard sizes for a number of reasons including the sizes of existing jigs and tools. On my projects where I found things that fit other things I was always working on my own but you have a lot of interested people here therefore I suggest that you give us the required dimensions for a winding to fit your roof ventilator, ask everyone to have a look around to see if they know of anything that might fit and give it some time, maybe give us a reminder over the next couple of videos. Wouldn’t it be fantastic if there was a motor winding still in production that was suitable.
Rob sir hope your finger hurts less now happy to see the video content as well as the reduced size of the bandage, it seems you hammered your finger disassembling those exercise bikes, take care and wish you fast recovery, Love and warm regards from India!!
The synchronus motor is built that way so the AC wave becomes the driving frequency and maintains a set speed. I put a lego cog on one last week to make it drive a large cog and turn even slower, and got bitten by the voltage when the drive pin turned from me driving a screw into it. Note to self...don't touch connectors while trying to turn it.😲
Before you rewind it in smaller coils maybe it is a good Idea to change the coil orientation to 90 degrees and try with same magnet configuration and a N,S,N,S config. I know it is easy for me to "advise" since I am not doing the work, but would add to the play.
the newman motor generator has similar coils but they have the traditional opposing polarity to the magnets configuration. I never thought of trying it this way. I once built a minni version to play with inside an aresol lid with a nail for a shaft and 9v battery and a 2.5x1x0.2cm neo magnet .pretty powerful little thing! Now if you wound that one coil with a zigzag it might be a better generator because it would have more opposing lines to the mag field . if you think lines of magnetism in a doughnut shape spinning out from the edges of the magnet and returning to the point between the poles you would have some intersecting of wire and "lines of magnetism" going on (like a wheel travel forward and backward at the same time kinda)
What if you painted over the coil with graphene paint, wouldn't that put out more, and FYI, lol you are almost building that metal detector coil with that winding. Awesome stuff mate, loved it
"Playing with coils and magnets". I still want to make an old style tone generator. Just a coil around a magnet and a square plate spinning through the field. It creates fluctuations in the field where the corners intersect. This concept seems useful to me for other purposes.
It might be possible to mount magnets to the drive belt and wrap it in coils of wire. It might also be possible to add reverse-wound coils to the inside, negative pole area of the driven rotor.
Hey, I need alittle information please. I have a 110volt ceiling fan, which i turned into a windmill, using those same exercising magnets😄Im producing 13 volts at max wind speed but im gaining milliamps, like 5.1 4.5. Also i have a 12volt dc motor but its the same milliamps. How can i improve this system to amps?
Another informative video. I’d like to suggest a direction for you. I’ve found that the bifilar wound coils I’ve used in motors and generators seem to significantly outperform coils with a winding of a single wire. I rarely see anyone use this technique. I also saw a video of the assembly of a motor used for a Tesla Model S that crimped hundreds of wires together, then only wound them once or twice. So, you have less resistance, and the capacitance between the wires (also, notably in generator form) greatly impacts the window of operating voltages. Unfortunately, using multiple wires to create a coil is only easy if you know the exact length of wire and have them pre-cut and wound, or you have to multiple wires simultaneously. The latter is a little easier, but still a little more work.
I would have thought that the microwave motor runs with 230 Volt AC. So rotation of the magnet arises from the magnet’s poles being pushed/pulled by the resulting moving (‘rotating’) magnetic field in the coil. Your bunch of rotating north poles produces minimal change in flux in your big coil (due only to wobbles in the winding). Lack of iron around your coil also leaves the magnetic field dissipated but with no changing field strength or direction iron wouldn’t help anyway. Next!!!
while you have the big coil together, you might as well test as many orientations as you can to see how they compare. what else would be cool is if you had a big piece of iron you could put inside of the coil to help concentrate the field. maybe even a big ball of aluminum foil would work?
Did you check the original magnet from the motor to see if it was axially or radially aligned for polarity? I've seen a few small motors with similar setup where the magnet was split along it's length for polarity instead of end for end
I like you idea Robert. This would work way better with less ohm resistance. THE part with north facing magnets seems to be a bit strange. One would think that north south arrangement would work better, at least that is my thinking. Have a great day fella and I hope your fickle finger of fate heals well. Peace fella too.
I really like the concept! I know you said its not the most efficient but I feel the magnetic fields should be at 90 degrees to the direction of the coil windings?
careful though Rob! if you do get a decent out put with all that copper wire and a magnet rotor with that diameter could produce some serious power, what gague wire is it ? An athete could produce 500watts on an exorcise bike for a while i think , or rather they exert the watt 500 equivelent of joules. So theres your upper limit on a human powered electric generator , you may need coils to withstand that much energy without turning into a peddle powered magnetic induction kettle.(now theres an idea lol oops!)
Hi Robert just a suggestion ,in regards the roof ventilator generator. I too tried to build a generator from a bicycle wheel with vanes attached and a steering rudder to keep it pointed into the wind, it did not work very well. So l put my thinking cap on and came to the same conclusion as you that the ventilator turns no mater which way the wind blows. So here's a suggestion, have you considered winding a toroidal coil with the magnets passing so that the flux lines cross the windings at right angles. That way you only have one winding and you can use heavier gauge wire for greater current.
Of course this works! The magnets are nothing more than a paddle, that paddles/pushes the electrons down the wire. Why this guy seems so surprised goes to show you that even so called experts don’t fully understand the cause and effects of magnetism. I’ve been research this in earnest for over 50 years now. I bet you this guy can’t tell us where the electricity comes from. And no, the electricity does not come from the wire or the magnet. Say what? To take this one step further there is no such thing as an electric generator because electric generators don’t actually generate electricity at all. Once you understand that then, and only then, do you actually know where the electricity truly comes from. Good luck magnet heads.
You need separate coils mate... make a 3 phase coil arrangement and then you can run the wiring long distance from your wind turbine without any losses.
You need to make it an axial flux design. Sit a South Pole on the other side to pull the flux path thru the coil. Or go back to a proper three phase design by using Sam Chamas’ serpentine coil designs. Then you don’t need fifty coils.
I tried it on a small amount and it went up very very little that big version right there it's given a lot more. Supposedly everything was facing north when you did it with the magnet?
I like what some of us need to know is if we're trying to charge a 12 volt battery, which in my understanding means 12 volt is the low end of what it contains and you need to input More voltage than 12 volts to charge the battery? Or will applying any voltage eventually accumulate to charge up that battery? And how does amperage play in that equation?
Thanks again Rob.. my brain is starting to try and think this thing to the next step.. it is so hard to cut through the fog that is my thoughts.. But isn't it really the game of trying that is the most fun? Success is always good.. but in the trying we discover so many other things.. carry on my friend.. Up for the challenge..
Having fun and learning is great and sufficient for many. Sourcing low cost materials or buying mew, Optimize for cost, or size, or effort, or power, or some other need needs is important for others. There isn't a one size fits all.
Ah- Here was my second question- Could you use the homopolar generator notion on this somehow? that theoretically would keep you from having to fight the induction. This may be utterly stupid of me, but instead of two magnets on either side of a plate spinning, can you do that with a coil and magnets? I just have this flickering lightbulb of an idea between that and the electrostatic collector you just made with the ink and carbon brushes.... I dunno. May not be worth considering but...
The voltage generated is related to the number of turns. Without insulating one turn from another you effectivly reduce your coil to a shorted single turn coil. If you insulate the new wire, then you run into the space per turn, and can only wind fewer turns. Copper is best/cheapest conductor for most, including home DIY projects.
@@ryanjamesloyd6733 Resistivity is measured or calculated acording too: a 1 meter × 1 meter × 1 meter solid cube of material with sheet contacts on two opposite faces, and if the resistance between these contacts is 1 Ω, then the resistivity of the material is 1 Ω⋅m. And its conductivity is the reciprocal of that. So lower resistivity means higher conductivity. Superconductors and silver aside, copper has the next highest conductivity. And while the ink is good conducting as far as ink goes, it is not as good as copper. Either way, if you add more material (good conductor or bad) to a wire increases its diameter and thus allows fewer turns in a given volume.
.......that's a conundrum you've landed on us with the winding and magnet arrangement. Is the magnet perhaps magnetised NS across it face rather than along it's short cylindrical length.? For some reason I'm recalling the Faraday paradox which I'll need to look up again . In that paradox movement of coil generates electricity but seemingly relatively matching movement of magnets generates nothing . ...So how about getting hold of a magnetic compass to locate north south placement for the magnet .? I'm even thinking it might be magnetised obliquely from top to bottom across the two faces.
Hi Robert. This should not work ... There's no flux change top to bottom of this coil but just a rotating flux aligned with the coil where flux change top to bottom is 0. This should not produce a working motor nor generator. This is easy to see because it's a symetrical setup. If you turn the coil 90 deg clockwise in respect to the rotating magnet it will provide full voltage. If you turn the coil 90 deg anti clockwise it will provide full voltage with opposite phase. If you turn the coil 0 deg. you will have the average of these 2 : 0. Imho you missed something in the original motor. A meander pattern or something in the iron ... something like that ...
Yes agreed that is should not work, but there is a measurement that is does, so unless there is a measurement error it is either an error in the theory or more likely an oversight on how the theory applies. My guess is that the electrons still experience a directional force due to the fluctuating field strength, it won't be as strong as crossing the lines since that 'locks' the electrons in a position in a field, but a directional force never the less.
@@MartinPHellwig I can only assume that the presence of the metal frame of the bike is allowing some sort of flux variation to occur when combined with the small variations in the strength of the magnets. It's perhaps easier to visualize if you take the magnets as stationary and envision the frame and coil as spinning.
@@MartinPHellwig That is not the case. The situation is symetrical watching the coil from top or from bottom. The measurement result robert is measuring is just due to the magnet angel being slightly off in respect to the coil. If either one can be adjusted just a tiny bit the result would be zero. Now I happen to have one of these in a drawer for ages and I took it apart. I found the exact tabs Jason Joplin is talking about below. So RPM of the magnet is fMains/4. If someone would do a tooth count of all gears it would lead to the specified RPM for the motor axis. Robert will have figured it out by now. I bet another interesting video is coming :-). There's one more thing to this and that's rotating direction. Due to symmetry there is no reason for it to go either clockwise or anti clockwise. It might go clockwise, it might go anti clockwise, it might just resonate and not rotate. As this is a proven design it will go one way or the other. It'll probably depend on the moment switched on in respect to the mains phase at that moment. Anyone with a micowave oven should be able to check this ( my plate and spindle broke a long time ago. I cannot check it:) )
Iron and other high permibility materials cause cogging. Magnets fight being pulled away from iron, converting mechanical energy into potential energy, and are pulled to the next, converting that potential energy to mechanical. What your refering to is that with a single phase the mechanical power is drawn off a little bit at a time, and converted to pulsed electrical power. Cogging can stop a turbine in low wind where as pulsed power just does a smaller P=V^2/R but will continue to spin. These are two different effects, and if you don't have reasonable flywheel effect for the amount of power drawn, or the amount of cogging, then either can send vibrations to the turbine that could be a problem. Going three phase can smooth out the power drawn, and there are techniques for reducing iron cogging.
@@kreynolds1123 I totally agree with you! I have found that 3 phase is definitely the way to go! I have experimented a lot in the past with three phase motors that you get out of old VCRs cuz I can pick them up for free out of the trash and tear them down that's a great source for small three-phase motors and they actually have a pretty good size diameter 2-in overall very flat pancake design, I also like the Samsung washing machine motors the big 12-in drum, and of course all size is in between, and yes there are methods for reducing that cogging to practically zero for the most efficiency depending on the arrangement of the magnets
Hi Robert, enjoy your channel greatly. I am trying to figure out how to make a generator to harness wave action while at anchor for my sailboat. I have imagined a free floating ring around around a bottom weighted cable hanging off a boom on the boat. With wave action the float would travel vertically up and down the cable with opposing magnetic fields. Our solar panels only make 200 watts in prime conditions and the wind generator doesn't always spin. But we have fairly constant wave action. I can't wrap my head around making the linear generator and electrical circuitry for the float style device. Can you make something in a future episode please? Thank you.
There are plenty of generators out there, there is no need to reinvent them... what we need is something that can actually spin those generators... Something reliable, like a steam engine maybe?
@@QuintusGaius Maybe you could think about the terms Robert brought up, "efficient" and "sufficient". Would love to see a steam engine that could be anyhow sufficient.
Why not use a paper ribbon, 1" wide and painted on one side with your conducting ink. Wind 500 feet of that, instead of the copper wire around the bobbin. Would not that act as a coil also?
Interesting once again Robert. I would caution you as when you rotate a magnet inside a loop of copper tubing it will create heat. I seen a vid of a guy playing around with this yrs ago. I was thinking about using this to create hot water for portable shower. Point being, you may create heat and melt your set up. Just some thoughts. Keep up the great work. God speed
Pls can you assist me how to construct xenon lamp power supply with a pulse function that can power up to 1000W. Kindly help with the circuit diagram. Thanks
@@Barskor1 sounds like MHD magnetohydrodynamics. There are fluid motors /fluid generators that use such. Often salt water, sometime hot gas. Sometimes plasma
Now mix your knowledge of making graphene in with copper make a new coil pack and it will output because it will have less resistance but you still need the copper because of its
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Hey buddy I like your thinking behind this, however, I believe you have overlooked a key aspect to the design of this synchronous motor, if you observe the little metal tabs on the casing of the motor that the coil sits into you will notice that the bottom of the metal has tabs little metal tabs sticking up that the magnetic rotor runs past and on the top side of the metal encasing the motor it has little metal tabs sticking down which the rotor turns past, the reason for this is that the alternating magnetic poles line up with those little tabs, the north will line up with the bottom and the South will line up with the top and it transfers the magnetic field from the sides of the rotating magnet to the top and bottom of the magnetic coil making the face of the magnetic coil North and the other face South as it alternates as it spins around, so the housing of the motor is crucial to the design aspect of its workings, just thought I would share a little insight that I have discovered from playing with these motors and studying the design construction
A rotating shield ? is that what your referring to? Interesting!
yep,the devils in the details as they say, in hindsight its now clearer, ;-) i bet it was optimised by a toy maker, you can learn a lot about cost and reduced materials use from them iv found
@@paulmaydaynight9925 yep, that's why all industrial runs on 3 phase, is most efficient out of any other system, and it high voltage 480, so the efficiency is even greater, we have a saying in the industry, " the higher the volts, the lower the bill" it's the most efficient and powerful and it works just the opposite for generation which is why all the hydro and wind turbines are 3 phase
Yoke "Description: A magnet that induces a magnetic field in the area of a part that lies between the poles. Yokes may be permanent magnets or electromagnets. Permanent Magnet Yoke - A body which possesses the ability to retain or hold a large amount of the applied magnet field after the active power of the field is removed."
im not sure that 'Description' describes the basic action for better understanding, id say its more the left/right flipping of the temp induced trailing magnetic field in the steel as a consequece of rotation perhaps.
as eric put it, the tea is always trailing the spoon as you stir it...
oc now the thought pops in the head ,modified cost reduced wimshurst frame with coil and steel sheet with many bent thickend tabs over and intersecting the pole, double the output by also using the other pole by winding the coil with a space etc...
@@paulmaydaynight9925 yes and as I've studied this effect I also came to a great realization when I understood that in certain circuits or certain scenarios and in inductive circuits voltage will lead current, and in resistive circuits current will lead voltage, and in capacitive inductive resistive they can be tuned to a desired phase differential which can actually eleminate the Lenze effect almost entirely
Always interesting and informative. Thanks Robert.
Hola Robert. Te felicito por los buenos experimentos y los valiosos análisis que realizas. Aunque en este caso en especial creo que perdiste de vista que en el pequeño motor hay dos núcleos, superior e inferior a la cubierta de la bobina y con aletas entrelazadas de manera que al girar los imanes permanentes en el centro, con plano paralelo a la bobina inducen campos magnéticos opuestos simultáneamente a las aletas que son parte de cada una de las láminas de hierro al silicio de los núcleos y estos a su vez aplican el campo magnético inducido a la bobina perpendicularmente. Que tal si vuelves a hacer la prueba tomando en cuenta esa característica que considero super importante en este tipo de diseño.
Fun stuff!! It will be interesting to see how multiple parallel windings ( and hence reduced total coil resistance) change the power output.
It also would be nice if you had the luxury of a magnet replacement module, that would allow you to easily try different combinations of magnet polarities.
'Why are you smiling?"
'Because, I know something you don't know"
'And what is that?"
'i am not left handed..."
Dread Pirate Roberts and Enigo Montoya - Princess Bride
I'm not left handed either
I also know he carefully concealed the pole pieces of the coil. The coil have 4 pairs of poles. 4 on the top plate, and 4 on the bottom plate that he very quickly removed from view after removing the coil. Fake science video trying to make it appear that the coil alone can create torque on the 8 pole rotor magnet without pole pieces. Then he conceals the magnet assy in the large coil. I see others spotted this too. Congrats some know how these motors actually work.
Not sure to attribute this to malice or ignorance on the subject.
@@isettech My, you have a lot to say ‘Mr. Dunning-Kruger.” Perhaps you should attend University?
@@undernetjack Thanks for the reference. I had to look it up. If I was young and could get ROI on the investment in school, I would consider that, but hard study and certifications work fine for engineering jobs. Nearing retirement, so university would be an expense with too little returns. Investing instead to increase my dividends as much as possible. Hope to reach $2500/month before I retire. Should be there in 5 years.
@@isettech Good fortune to you. I retired 9 years ago and still invest my time in learning beyond anything taught at Uni. Cheers.
It's a unusual setup in comparison to standard motor based orientation of coils and magnets. Usually there is also 2 coils or multiples of 3.
In this design, apart from what Paul has said about magnetic fields passing through the steel, I think you have to look at magnetic flux, this usually occurs in the 4 corners of the magnet and each flux rotates counter to its neighbours. Howard Johnson was a pioneer in magnetics and until recently not enough forward learning has been done.
This motor works because of the flux movement in the magnet and it's distance to the coil. The coil is also thinner and thicker (maybe I should have said narrower and wider)
The bobbin possibly has a thin ferrite ring within the inners where the ring magnet sits.
Great video Rob, I might try a few versions of this myself.
Robert -- as others have alluded to, your understanding would _really_ jump ahead if you studied up a bit on magnetic circuits. By itself, the coil in the small synchronous motor produces a field parallel to its axis, which would impose zero net force on the rotatable magnet. You have set up the reverse of that, and discovered the expected -- the rotating magnet induces almost no voltage or current in the winding. The key is that in the motor there is a magnetic circuit, consisting of the top and bottom plates, each with fingers that extend into the region around the rotatable magnet. Those fingers "conduct" the north- and south-pointing fluxes into the area around the magnet, and their interleaving produces a N-S-N-S pattern around the magnet. In addition, since the current itself alternates in time, those fingers of flux alternate N-S-N-S in time as well. The result is that the magnet sees around it a rotating N-S-N-S... pattern, to which is is drawn and thus persuaded to rotate. At least once it gets started.
At any rate, applying this to your generator, you would need to set up a similar pattern of two magnetically susceptible plates (one each side of the coil) with fingers that the magnet poles pass by, and which conduct the pulses of magnetic flux to either one plate or the other, so that you actually achieve an alternating axial field through the coil. Then you'll get a far more robust result!
Slight problem. The round magnet has multiple alternating poles, and the metalwork (looks like prongs) guides the alternating magnetic field to each face of the coil. One set of prongs leads to the plate on one side of the coil and another set (interleaved with the first set) leads to the plate on the other side. The prongs and plates make the magnetic circuit. Each plate gets an alternate north / south through the 'prongs' from the multi-pole magnet, as it rotates, when use as a generator.
That's a great video mr. Smith. I was playing around with one of those the other day and I seem to remember the spindle in mine was like a ball and socket. I also seem to remember that it had North and South Poles Half & Half facing the coil. I may be mistaken but that's the way I remember it working.
That is quite interesting. I think you'd get a better output if you were to alternate the magnets, so the poles are perpendicular to the plane of the coil, and affix a series of C shaped iron pieces such that the coil was surrounded by them with the gaps nearly touching the magnets, and spaced such that only one polarity of magnets were between the gaps in the C's. That way there's a coilwide change in the flux as the the fields in the iron peices and in free air changes with the change in polarity of the magnets sweeping by.
1. Yes, the resistance is large and the distance of those magnets is too big.
2. I've got an old training bike in the shed, once will clean up moving my rooms, can take it out :D as well and play with it. I'd try multi-level magnets. What I mean by that is to use one layer of magnets for one coil, and make several of these that in one turn we have at least 3 phases :). We can use capacitors to charge and even MOSFETs from old electronics to switch. Not once capacitors are charged enough, they can release energy to the battery and be ready to charge again. I've got a bunch of old HDDs that I can take apart for magnets. Some of them were even bought to do so years back.
This way there's much less loss IMHO. And if we'd be able to use those layers + phases, that potentially can increase the efficiency.
Robert yet again you are onto something different and very interesting. Some years back I chanced upon some videos related to free energy systems, and the thing you are now experimenting with now look quite a bit like a type of motor John Newman had designed. It also looks like something Gerard Morin was demonstrating on another video. Both with fascinating results. Thanks for this insert.
it would be nice to add a car alternator to this "exercise bike" and use the charge from the magnet to "activate" the alternator. i wonder what they could generate combined ??
Great idea to explore this arrangement, after watching one of your vids on the turntable motor a few months back, I turned the rotor with a drill and I was able to dimly light a 240v lightbulb, ac voltage was well over 50v. If I had a suitable high building I'd have explored a gravity battery.
We're not interested in efficiency but sufficiency. LOVE IT ❤
You sure sparked the comments with this one.. Great video. Thanks..
I would love to see first the arrange of the magnets north South north, South, and maybe try the same thing, but with the serpentine coil which im a fan because of you. Cheers!
If you refer to microwave motor you will notice the metal sheald which transfer magnet fields around the coil, if you try that there will be improvement of volts
Generating electricity is fun. I created and stored some solar power gathered from LEDs instead of solar cells. Not useful as power generation, but I understood energy harvesting and how larger systems work a lot better afterwards, while only needed basic components and a multimeter.
I would really like to see a video on taking electrical measurements. You frequently measure open circuit voltage and short circuit current to judge the power output of a device. This seems counter intuitive to me. I'm not questioning your understanding of it, just curious to know if the measurement is an accurate representation of the power being generated. I have also been told that this measurment technique can be used to help derltermine the optimal load. That's really cool if it is true!
Hey Robert, over the years of tinkering I have been pleasantly surprised at how many things fit other things, it seems that due to standard sizes already used designers tend to continue to use standard sizes for a number of reasons including the sizes of existing jigs and tools. On my projects where I found things that fit other things I was always working on my own but you have a lot of interested people here therefore I suggest that you give us the required dimensions for a winding to fit your roof ventilator, ask everyone to have a look around to see if they know of anything that might fit and give it some time, maybe give us a reminder over the next couple of videos. Wouldn’t it be fantastic if there was a motor winding still in production that was suitable.
very cool! more experiments like this please
Didn't see how you had the Magnet configured.
I believe it was the wheel to Robert's left side on the bench, looked like the magnets were on the outer edge of the wheel..
@@dansdroids4067 Got it. Thankz. I missed it .
@@dansdroids4067 I think that is the belt of the wheel driving something else.
Some interesting ideas there nice coil i need one twice that size, so it gives me som construction ideas, nice project Rob
Rob sir hope your finger hurts less now happy to see the video content as well as the reduced size of the bandage, it seems you hammered your finger disassembling those exercise bikes, take care and wish you fast recovery, Love and warm regards from India!!
The synchronus motor is built that way so the AC wave becomes the driving frequency and maintains a set speed. I put a lego cog on one last week to make it drive a large cog and turn even slower, and got bitten by the voltage when the drive pin turned from me driving a screw into it. Note to self...don't touch connectors while trying to turn it.😲
Before you rewind it in smaller coils maybe it is a good Idea to change the coil orientation to 90 degrees and try with same magnet configuration and a N,S,N,S config. I know it is easy for me to "advise" since I am not doing the work, but would add to the play.
the newman motor generator has similar coils but they have the traditional opposing polarity to the magnets configuration. I never thought of trying it this way.
I once built a minni version to play with inside an aresol lid with a nail for a shaft and 9v battery and a 2.5x1x0.2cm neo magnet .pretty powerful little thing!
Now if you wound that one coil with a zigzag it might be a better generator because it would have more opposing lines to the mag field .
if you think lines of magnetism in a doughnut shape spinning out from the edges of the magnet and returning to the point between the poles you would have some intersecting of wire and "lines of magnetism" going on (like a wheel travel forward and backward at the same time kinda)
What if you painted over the coil with graphene paint, wouldn't that put out more, and FYI, lol you are almost building that metal detector coil with that winding. Awesome stuff mate, loved it
"Playing with coils and magnets". I still want to make an old style tone generator. Just a coil around a magnet and a square plate spinning through the field. It creates fluctuations in the field where the corners intersect. This concept seems useful to me for other purposes.
Try a roll of aluminum tape as a coil
@@IC86688 they usually have plastic backing for the adhesive removal and it's often a Aluminum laminate with plastic
It might be possible to mount magnets to the drive belt and wrap it in coils of wire. It might also be possible to add reverse-wound coils to the inside, negative pole area of the driven rotor.
Hey, I need alittle information please. I have a 110volt ceiling fan, which i turned into a windmill, using those same exercising magnets😄Im producing 13 volts at max wind speed but im gaining milliamps, like 5.1 4.5. Also i have a 12volt dc motor but its the same milliamps. How can i improve this system to amps?
Also, if neodymium magnets are used, it would make the magnet wheel heavy enough to get a decent flywheel effect.
@@IC86688 Good to know - then those are the ones to use!
As always; Great stuff Robert!
Another informative video. I’d like to suggest a direction for you. I’ve found that the bifilar wound coils I’ve used in motors and generators seem to significantly outperform coils with a winding of a single wire. I rarely see anyone use this technique. I also saw a video of the assembly of a motor used for a Tesla Model S that crimped hundreds of wires together, then only wound them once or twice. So, you have less resistance, and the capacitance between the wires (also, notably in generator form) greatly impacts the window of operating voltages. Unfortunately, using multiple wires to create a coil is only easy if you know the exact length of wire and have them pre-cut and wound, or you have to multiple wires simultaneously. The latter is a little easier, but still a little more work.
Could you please explain this because I don't understand how you could get any voltage out of one coil. Thank You
I think the magnet has alternate poles around it. It is easily possible to magnetise it with around 16 alternate poles
I would have thought that the microwave motor runs with 230 Volt AC. So rotation of the magnet arises from the magnet’s poles being pushed/pulled by the resulting moving (‘rotating’) magnetic field in the coil. Your bunch of rotating north poles produces minimal change in flux in your big coil (due only to wobbles in the winding). Lack of iron around your coil also leaves the magnetic field dissipated but with no changing field strength or direction iron wouldn’t help anyway. Next!!!
while you have the big coil together, you might as well test as many orientations as you can to see how they compare. what else would be cool is if you had a big piece of iron you could put inside of the coil to help concentrate the field. maybe even a big ball of aluminum foil would work?
Did you check the original magnet from the motor to see if it was axially or radially aligned for polarity? I've seen a few small motors with similar setup where the magnet was split along it's length for polarity instead of end for end
I like you idea Robert. This would work way better with less ohm resistance. THE part with north facing magnets seems to be a bit strange. One would think that north south arrangement would work better, at least that is my thinking. Have a great day fella and I hope your fickle finger of fate heals well. Peace fella too.
always enjoy your videos, thanks for sharing
I really like the concept!
I know you said its not the most efficient but I feel the magnetic fields should be at 90 degrees to the direction of the coil windings?
careful though Rob! if you do get a decent out put with all that copper wire and a magnet rotor with that diameter could produce some serious power, what gague wire is it ?
An athete could produce 500watts on an exorcise bike for a while i think , or rather they exert the watt 500 equivelent of joules. So theres your upper limit on a human powered electric generator , you may need coils to withstand that much energy without turning into a peddle powered magnetic induction kettle.(now theres an idea lol oops!)
Curious I wonder what the flux pattern is of that magne?
Hi Robert just a suggestion ,in regards the roof ventilator generator. I too tried to build a generator from a bicycle wheel with vanes attached and a steering rudder to keep it pointed into the wind, it did not work very well. So l put my thinking cap on and came to the same conclusion as you that the ventilator turns no mater which way the wind blows. So here's a suggestion, have you considered winding a toroidal coil with the magnets passing so that the flux lines cross the windings at right angles. That way you only have one winding and you can use heavier gauge wire for greater current.
Of course this works! The magnets are nothing more than a paddle, that paddles/pushes the electrons down the wire. Why this guy seems so surprised goes to show you that even so called experts don’t fully understand the cause and effects of magnetism. I’ve been research this in earnest for over 50 years now. I bet you this guy can’t tell us where the electricity comes from. And no, the electricity does not come from the wire or the magnet. Say what? To take this one step further there is no such thing as an electric generator because electric generators don’t actually generate electricity at all. Once you understand that then, and only then, do you actually know where the electricity truly comes from.
Good luck magnet heads.
Let me guess, the energy produced from his own hand forcibly turning the coil?
You need separate coils mate... make a 3 phase coil arrangement and then you can run the wiring long distance from your wind turbine without any losses.
The whole time I was expecting that you will be testing it also as a motor not only as a generator.....
You need to make it an axial flux design. Sit a South Pole on the other side to pull the flux path thru the coil.
Or go back to a proper three phase design by using Sam Chamas’ serpentine coil designs. Then you don’t need fifty coils.
Ferrocell, a gadget you might benefit from greatly.
I tried it on a small amount and it went up very very little that big version right there it's given a lot more. Supposedly everything was facing north when you did it with the magnet?
Elegant bodging.
Thanks again Robert 😊 👍
Can't wait till you find something putting out full amps
Have you tried playing Rodin coils as transformers or generators? I recommend it if you have not. It's basically 2 coils into one.
I like what some of us need to know is if we're trying to charge a 12 volt battery, which in my understanding means 12 volt is the low end of what it contains and you need to input More voltage than 12 volts to charge the battery? Or will applying any voltage eventually accumulate to charge up that battery? And how does amperage play in that equation?
Painting a continuous strip of paper/tape,/plastic and using it for the wire. ;)
You could also use some ferrite in the middle of the coils to see if amps go up 🤔
Yes I see the potential, electronic potential. Wonder if anyone else got that?
Thanks again Rob.. my brain is starting to try and think this thing to the next step.. it is so hard to cut through the fog that is my thoughts.. But isn't it really the game of trying that is the most fun? Success is always good.. but in the trying we discover so many other things.. carry on my friend.. Up for the challenge..
Having fun and learning is great and sufficient for many. Sourcing low cost materials or buying mew, Optimize for cost, or size, or effort, or power, or some other need needs is important for others. There isn't a one size fits all.
@@kreynolds1123 Ain't that the truth Keith... Well said!
Isn’t it amazing when simpler is better possibly?
Thanks brother
Can you turn the coil 90 degrees?
Ha ha, I’m a day or two behind your vids Rob......I can guess what’s coming though 😁
Nice demo, btw try not to wave with the hand with patched finger.
what happens if you dump your ink on a coil- just get all the wire coated, would that improve conductivity at all or no?
Ah- Here was my second question- Could you use the homopolar generator notion on this somehow? that theoretically would keep you from having to fight the induction. This may be utterly stupid of me, but instead of two magnets on either side of a plate spinning, can you do that with a coil and magnets? I just have this flickering lightbulb of an idea between that and the electrostatic collector you just made with the ink and carbon brushes.... I dunno. May not be worth considering but...
The voltage generated is related to the number of turns. Without insulating one turn from another you effectivly reduce your coil to a shorted single turn coil. If you insulate the new wire, then you run into the space per turn, and can only wind fewer turns. Copper is best/cheapest conductor for most, including home DIY projects.
@@kreynolds1123 But... bare copper wire isn't insulated from touching itself, so why doesn't That affect it?
@@ryanjamesloyd6733 the wire he used is not bare. Its coated. Google magnetic wire. You can buy spools full.
@@ryanjamesloyd6733 Resistivity is measured or calculated acording too: a 1 meter × 1 meter × 1 meter solid cube of material with sheet contacts on two opposite faces, and if the resistance between these contacts is 1 Ω, then the resistivity of the material is 1 Ω⋅m. And its conductivity is the reciprocal of that. So lower resistivity means higher conductivity.
Superconductors and silver aside, copper has the next highest conductivity.
And while the ink is good conducting as far as ink goes, it is not as good as copper. Either way, if you add more material (good conductor or bad) to a wire increases its diameter and thus allows fewer turns in a given volume.
Can you take a look at Crystal cell battery. I have made a few myself with interesting results
.......that's a conundrum you've landed on us with the winding and magnet arrangement. Is the magnet perhaps magnetised NS across it face rather than along it's short cylindrical length.? For some reason I'm recalling the Faraday paradox which I'll need to look up again . In that paradox movement of coil generates electricity but seemingly relatively matching movement of magnets generates nothing .
...So how about getting hold of a magnetic compass to locate north south placement for the magnet .? I'm even thinking it might be magnetised obliquely from top to bottom across the two faces.
Hi Robert. This should not work ... There's no flux change top to bottom of this coil but just a rotating flux aligned with the coil where flux change top to bottom is 0. This should not produce a working motor nor generator. This is easy to see because it's a symetrical setup. If you turn the coil 90 deg clockwise in respect to the rotating magnet it will provide full voltage. If you turn the coil 90 deg anti clockwise it will provide full voltage with opposite phase. If you turn the coil 0 deg. you will have the average of these 2 : 0. Imho you missed something in the original motor. A meander pattern or something in the iron ... something like that ...
Yes agreed that is should not work, but there is a measurement that is does, so unless there is a measurement error it is either an error in the theory or more likely an oversight on how the theory applies. My guess is that the electrons still experience a directional force due to the fluctuating field strength, it won't be as strong as crossing the lines since that 'locks' the electrons in a position in a field, but a directional force never the less.
@@MartinPHellwig I can only assume that the presence of the metal frame of the bike is allowing some sort of flux variation to occur when combined with the small variations in the strength of the magnets. It's perhaps easier to visualize if you take the magnets as stationary and envision the frame and coil as spinning.
@@MartinPHellwig That is not the case. The situation is symetrical watching the coil from top or from bottom. The measurement result robert is measuring is just due to the magnet angel being slightly off in respect to the coil. If either one can be adjusted just a tiny bit the result would be zero.
Now I happen to have one of these in a drawer for ages and I took it apart. I found the exact tabs Jason Joplin is talking about below. So RPM of the magnet is fMains/4. If someone would do a tooth count of all gears it would lead to the specified RPM for the motor axis. Robert will have figured it out by now. I bet another interesting video is coming :-).
There's one more thing to this and that's rotating direction. Due to symmetry there is no reason for it to go either clockwise or anti clockwise. It might go clockwise, it might go anti clockwise, it might just resonate and not rotate. As this is a proven design it will go one way or the other. It'll probably depend on the moment switched on in respect to the mains phase at that moment. Anyone with a micowave oven should be able to check this ( my plate and spindle broke a long time ago. I cannot check it:) )
What if you put a thick band of copper in plce of the coils
Would you get a higher current
This also produces a "cogging effect" when you rotate the magnet rotor
Iron and other high permibility materials cause cogging. Magnets fight being pulled away from iron, converting mechanical energy into potential energy, and are pulled to the next, converting that potential energy to mechanical. What your refering to is that with a single phase the mechanical power is drawn off a little bit at a time, and converted to pulsed electrical power. Cogging can stop a turbine in low wind where as pulsed power just does a smaller P=V^2/R but will continue to spin.
These are two different effects, and if you don't have reasonable flywheel effect for the amount of power drawn, or the amount of cogging, then either can send vibrations to the turbine that could be a problem. Going three phase can smooth out the power drawn, and there are techniques for reducing iron cogging.
@@kreynolds1123 I totally agree with you! I have found that 3 phase is definitely the way to go! I have experimented a lot in the past with three phase motors that you get out of old VCRs cuz I can pick them up for free out of the trash and tear them down that's a great source for small three-phase motors and they actually have a pretty good size diameter 2-in overall very flat pancake design, I also like the Samsung washing machine motors the big 12-in drum, and of course all size is in between, and yes there are methods for reducing that cogging to practically zero for the most efficiency depending on the arrangement of the magnets
@@JasonJoplin Check out the motor I made on my channel. Axial flux BLDC with zero cogging slotless stator iron and three coils on the stator.
@@kreynolds1123 good stuff!
Hi Robert, enjoy your channel greatly.
I am trying to figure out how to make a generator to harness wave action while at anchor for my sailboat. I have imagined a free floating ring around around a bottom weighted cable hanging off a boom on the boat. With wave action the float would travel vertically up and down the cable with opposing magnetic fields. Our solar panels only make 200 watts in prime conditions and the wind generator doesn't always spin. But we have fairly constant wave action. I can't wrap my head around making the linear generator and electrical circuitry for the float style device. Can you make something in a future episode please? Thank you.
Let's see the magnet assembly.
There are plenty of generators out there, there is no need to reinvent them... what we need is something that can actually spin those generators... Something reliable, like a steam engine maybe?
Reviewing old inventions may often give you new ideas.
@@Teknopottu Yes, that's absolutely true, but I'm trying to say that generator itself is not a problem, the thing making them spin is.
@@QuintusGaius Maybe you could think about the terms Robert brought up, "efficient" and "sufficient". Would love to see a steam engine that could be anyhow sufficient.
Steam engines have already been invented also.
Present for class Professor! 😊👍
spinning magnet in a coil of copper, but polarity constantly switching because of a transistor.
Why not use a paper ribbon, 1" wide and painted on one side with your conducting ink. Wind 500 feet of that, instead of the copper wire around the bobbin. Would not that act as a coil also?
Interesting once again Robert. I would caution you as when you rotate a magnet inside a loop of copper tubing it will create heat. I seen a vid of a guy playing around with this yrs ago. I was thinking about using this to create hot water for portable shower. Point being, you may create heat and melt your set up. Just some thoughts. Keep up the great work. God speed
thank you
What kind of a magnetic field would be generated by a coil that is in the shape of a 3 dimensional lissajous pattern ( a 3D " infinity symbol " ) ?
... Blood sprays everywhere...
COOL MATE! 🥸/Mikael
Have you ever done a jump start a car Alternator to run a 5000 watt generator (so it could power the ALT) for continue free power
What was the thinking in having all the magnets the same way?
Pls can you assist me how to construct xenon lamp power supply with a pulse function that can power up to 1000W. Kindly help with the circuit diagram. Thanks
How about a tube of stacked coils with a shaft of mags spinning very closely under each of the coils & driven by tesla turbine
Why copper wires at all, magnetic fluid would perform much better.
Source for such a schema?
Coper tube as a circle or coil with the fluid inside moving through?
Could a coil of magnetic gas work?
Could a coilf of magnetic gas work?
@@Barskor1 sounds like MHD magnetohydrodynamics.
There are fluid motors /fluid generators that use such.
Often salt water, sometime hot gas. Sometimes plasma
Now mix your knowledge of making graphene in with copper make a new coil pack and it will output because it will have less resistance but you still need the copper because of its
Scaling up a design or mechanism has its own challenges and problems.
Observing the mid digit , c' mon, whom dga flip off?
captainmidnite17 he cut it on the vent turbine build
well, thank god i didn't have to spend any time imagining a design that didn't work. oops , too late.
The windings have to cross each other, you are too neat in winding the coil.
Never showed the agent arrangement
Thanks back to the basic
What I do like about you
"Beginners' All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code" says it all really
How does he earn money to fund all his play time?
Robert dont you ever have a day off lol
did not enjoy the video as much, we could not see the wheel turning, just the armature of the bike :(