holy SHIT the part about the overheads made so much sense. for years i've set them up more or less visually, thinking as long as it's vaguely the same left to right, this sort of thing. following his method of a) keeping the mics equidistant from the center of the snare (which usually leads to one mic being lower than the other, which seems like the wrong thing, but absolutely is not) and b) attempting as best you can to arrange those overheads on a perpendicular line relative to the kick/snare axis is mind blowing. i'm doing a session this week and i don't want to oversell it but it has absolutely changed the way i'll set up overheads going forward.
The EQ man of men doing his best to not filter. He loves to hear a music performance not gear. And the ribbon is just way to cool. Massenburg is one of the guys that I scower the net to find. With a hand full a short list .
More please. ? Great video, GM is a ledg and it's amazing to hear him talk about placement and the thought that goes into it. Audio examples would be amazing. Thanks uploader!
Wow, I reached the same conclusions about overhead positioning by experience. For me, people that set the perspective of the drum kit from the front of the bass drum are just hearing with their eyes and usually get a phasey image of the snare, that shifts to one side of the stereo image after the initial attack captured by the close moc. Thanks for this reassurement.
it's not only phase "cancellation", it's also phase summing so basically 'comb-filtering' so some frequencies are up to 2x louder than normal and others down to silent depending on phase interactions. Maybe we could call it phase-colorations.
As much as I respect George, he comes across as a little arrogant here for my tastes. I can't help but roll my eyes a little: "Right. All the engineers who prefer a more traditional overhead spacing 'have no f*ing clue.' Thanks George. Please tell us about it. While completely missing any of the tradeoffs inherent in this position. :D" Each approach has its own tradeoffs. I've used this one many times, but still prefer centering the kick in the overheads on many occasions. To each their own!
Hello Justin, i do understand your point regarding arrogance. And i know that him and Al Schmitt are friends so i fowarded that video to Al. He just anwsered he does not do such things but, that does not mean GM would be wrong about that OH positionning. I think we have to take what he says without forgetting it was mostly under the mood of that particular day. This was make for a french website were lots of amateurs are connected to. Pro's too but my guessings mostly are that video was made for beginners there. I know this website a lot because i am french and had my moments back in the days where i was posting a lot on it. We have to admit that as a beginer we first make lots of misstakes and obviously, GM is a very passionate guy that also loves teaching. And if you want to know the truth i mostly laughed when i heard him say what he said.
You can put on as many microphones as you'd like, but if you turn them all on in the mix you're gonna have a bad time. I often put on a lot of mics for choice, but I leave many/most of them muted in the end.
LoL. You CAN say fuck. I don't mind. Great video. Very informative. I'm micing a drum set in a 10x12 shed , dry-walled with comforters covering the walls and ceiling. Having a heck of a time with my 2 over heads....
@deadbirdsings For better or for worse, by today's recording standards, I would very much count seven mics on a drum kit as being "fewer" than average. Besides, this is George Massenburg. He's done enough for the audio world that he could get away with being self-indulgent if he wanted, and probably no one would really mind.
If I could not get a great drum sound with 15 to 20 k worth of mics then I would give up!!What about getting a sound with mics in the normal range like 2 to 3 hundred?
get a pair of Beyerdynamic M201's, some SM57's and maybe a Beta 52. A bit more expensive than 300 but if you looked for used stuff it wouldn't be so bad. You can get a great sound with that provided you have a good room and nice sounding drums. I'm currently working on my own album and things changed over time, but for the most part I used Beta 52 on the kick, 421's on snare and toms, 57 on snare bottom, a crush mic, and then M201's and U89's as overheads in the position George talks about. I find that for the sound I was after the M201's sounded much more natural and full than the Neumanns. They're about like 10% the price too. Money isn't everything, but you do need to invest if you want great recordings!
I routinely use 4 mics on drums since watching this video. None of them are over 500.00. Using this technique you can get a great sound even if you choose not to close mic anything but the kick and snare.
@deadbirdsings 7 mics is very few by most standards today... I often deal with 24-30 mics on a standard size kit... of course, most aren't that great and their signal is discarded. But the overall sound suffers because the recording engineer relied on too many mics instead of trying to get a great sound from just a few--a few meaning approximately 7.
I have never heard anyone explaining something so complicated/weird. He is talking in east and west, and in the end talking about how there are no rules, yet dissing the engineers placing overhead mics in a certain position.
I would say that's on you. I found it very easy to understand. Having struggled with whether to center the OH on the snare (as most do) or on the kick, for years, I tried this and haven't looked back. It pulls everything together so much better than all the work-arounds (like high-passing the OH at 150). I've been using less mics and getting more detail as a result. The first time I tried this I just used a stereo mic (Rode NT4) and was blown away. The second time I used a pair of 414s and played around with the positions. George is absolutely correct. WTF have all these engineers with tier OH over the cymbals or XY measured to the snare been hearing? I also tried the ribbon on the snare, and have been using that ever since. It works great even in live situations. I also tried a figure 8 condenser. It can work on the right drum.
You've got to use your ears. You create an imaginary line running diagonally through the top head of the snare and the beater head of the kick. That's where you start. Then you move them forward or backward, to bring out more or less of different elements. You can also raise or lower either side and narrow/widen them. As long as they are equidistant to that diagonal axis, you get a great drum sound.
It is outrageous... honestly, I don't like it and I wish it were different... that just seems to be the way things go with a lot of tracking engineers these days--they aren't skilled enough to be able to place mics well, so they just place a mic everywhere... and when I get the tracks for the mix, it's chaos. Also, there is inevitably too much hhat in every mic and phase incoherence between every mic... George knows best. I wish the ppl I worked with had the skill to do what he does.
Yeah! that's all well for the adult but I had to stop the vid, my 3 year old was sitting on my lap watching with as much interest as I was. I'll pick this video up later I guess. :-)
it's not only phase cancellation, it's also phase summing so basically 'comb-filtering' so some sounds are up to 2x louder than normal and others down to silent depending on phase interactions. Maybe we could call it phase-colorations.
holy SHIT the part about the overheads made so much sense. for years i've set them up more or less visually, thinking as long as it's vaguely the same left to right, this sort of thing. following his method of a) keeping the mics equidistant from the center of the snare (which usually leads to one mic being lower than the other, which seems like the wrong thing, but absolutely is not) and b) attempting as best you can to arrange those overheads on a perpendicular line relative to the kick/snare axis is mind blowing. i'm doing a session this week and i don't want to oversell it but it has absolutely changed the way i'll set up overheads going forward.
That was literally the BEST video I’ve ever seen on micing a drum set
same here. in less than 10 mins even.
The EQ man of men doing his best to not filter. He loves to hear a music performance not gear. And the ribbon is just way to cool. Massenburg is one of the guys that I scower the net to find. With a hand full a short list .
Those Earth, Wind and Fire Drums are legendary. Never the same after Mr Massenburg.
wow. love the idea of the ribbon position on the snare. eliminates the need for top and bottom mic. really cool
More please. ? Great video, GM is a ledg and it's amazing to hear him talk about placement and the thought that goes into it.
Audio examples would be amazing.
Thanks uploader!
1:40 Yes you can, George. Yes you can.
He's like the Bob Ross of drum miking
Annnnnnnd you didn't let us hear how it sounded.
Wow, I reached the same conclusions about overhead positioning by experience. For me, people that set the perspective of the drum kit from the front of the bass drum are just hearing with their eyes and usually get a phasey image of the snare, that shifts to one side of the stereo image after the initial attack captured by the close moc. Thanks for this reassurement.
Golden words from an audio genius!!!
Really enjoying this!
Thank you for sharing. Looking forward to Episode 2.
Common cents... bright man... like tailing to Karl Diehl about how electronics deals with sound... mind automating ... Thanks Doyen
Nice drum grooves, drums in all sound great! I love passionate people!!
David Curtis Drumming
it's not only phase "cancellation", it's also phase summing so basically 'comb-filtering' so some frequencies are up to 2x louder than normal and others down to silent depending on phase interactions. Maybe we could call it phase-colorations.
The amazing Massenburg
Fantastica lezione. Grazie!
I CAN say fuck..oh okay...love it
Très intéressante & enrichissante vidéo : merci Audio Fanzine !!! :)
9 mics ( not counting ny room mics we can't see.) on 3 drums is considered minimal micing?
george youre a genius!
George said "fucking"!!!!! He's definitely the man!
George knows his stuff
fantastic
1:40 just made me love him more. lol!!!
cool players!! when the musicians are good, it makes it so much easier for the sound tech.
Great video
bon groupe 1 love
Nice!
finally someone else who knows how to mic overheads!!!! wait... it is George Massenburg... no surprise...
Do you a list of the microphones used? Figured most out, but unsure what he used on the rack tom and high hat.
Thanks! Cool video.
As much as I respect George, he comes across as a little arrogant here for my tastes. I can't help but roll my eyes a little:
"Right. All the engineers who prefer a more traditional overhead spacing 'have no f*ing clue.' Thanks George. Please tell us about it. While completely missing any of the tradeoffs inherent in this position. :D"
Each approach has its own tradeoffs. I've used this one many times, but still prefer centering the kick in the overheads on many occasions. To each their own!
Hello Justin, i do understand your point regarding arrogance. And i know that him and Al Schmitt are friends so i fowarded that video to Al. He just anwsered he does not do such things but, that does not mean GM would be wrong about that OH positionning. I think we have to take what he says without forgetting it was mostly under the mood of that particular day. This was make for a french website were lots of amateurs are connected to. Pro's too but my guessings mostly are that video was made for beginners there. I know this website a lot because i am french and had my moments back in the days where i was posting a lot on it. We have to admit that as a beginer we first make lots of misstakes and obviously, GM is a very passionate guy that also loves teaching. And if you want to know the truth i mostly laughed when i heard him say what he said.
You can put on as many microphones as you'd like, but if you turn them all on in the mix you're gonna have a bad time. I often put on a lot of mics for choice, but I leave many/most of them muted in the end.
LoL. You CAN say fuck. I don't mind. Great video. Very informative. I'm micing a drum set in a 10x12 shed , dry-walled with comforters covering the walls and ceiling. Having a heck of a time with my 2 over heads....
thanks
The great massenburg!
@deadbirdsings For better or for worse, by today's recording standards, I would very much count seven mics on a drum kit as being "fewer" than average.
Besides, this is George Massenburg. He's done enough for the audio world that he could get away with being self-indulgent if he wanted, and probably no one would really mind.
Nice Sanken CO-100K Mics.
If I could not get a great drum sound with 15 to 20 k worth of mics then I would give up!!What about getting a sound with mics in the normal range like 2 to 3 hundred?
Placement is critical. It is easy to make pricey mics sound bad.... interns do it all the time.
get a pair of Beyerdynamic M201's, some SM57's and maybe a Beta 52. A bit more expensive than 300 but if you looked for used stuff it wouldn't be so bad. You can get a great sound with that provided you have a good room and nice sounding drums. I'm currently working on my own album and things changed over time, but for the most part I used Beta 52 on the kick, 421's on snare and toms, 57 on snare bottom, a crush mic, and then M201's and U89's as overheads in the position George talks about. I find that for the sound I was after the M201's sounded much more natural and full than the Neumanns. They're about like 10% the price too. Money isn't everything, but you do need to invest if you want great recordings!
I routinely use 4 mics on drums since watching this video. None of them are over 500.00. Using this technique you can get a great sound even if you choose not to close mic anything but the kick and snare.
less mics = less spill aswell
bravi
@deadbirdsings 7 mics is very few by most standards today... I often deal with 24-30 mics on a standard size kit... of course, most aren't that great and their signal is discarded. But the overall sound suffers because the recording engineer relied on too many mics instead of trying to get a great sound from just a few--a few meaning approximately 7.
Work harder with fewer mics.. it's that simple. More is less on drums. Unless you have 8 tom mics, and do top and bottoms... yuck.
I have never heard anyone explaining something so complicated/weird. He is talking in east and west, and in the end talking about how there are no rules, yet dissing the engineers placing overhead mics in a certain position.
I would say that's on you. I found it very easy to understand. Having struggled with whether to center the OH on the snare (as most do) or on the kick, for years, I tried this and haven't looked back. It pulls everything together so much better than all the work-arounds (like high-passing the OH at 150). I've been using less mics and getting more detail as a result. The first time I tried this I just used a stereo mic (Rode NT4) and was blown away. The second time I used a pair of 414s and played around with the positions.
George is absolutely correct. WTF have all these engineers with tier OH over the cymbals or XY measured to the snare been hearing?
I also tried the ribbon on the snare, and have been using that ever since. It works great even in live situations. I also tried a figure 8 condenser. It can work on the right drum.
Using less mics makes for better phase? like using no mics and going with a drum machine, lol!?
Is there a specific spot that the overheads are pointing to?
You've got to use your ears. You create an imaginary line running diagonally through the top head of the snare and the beater head of the kick. That's where you start. Then you move them forward or backward, to bring out more or less of different elements. You can also raise or lower either side and narrow/widen them. As long as they are equidistant to that diagonal axis, you get a great drum sound.
Now what do we know that we didn't know when we started watching this video?
1:37 SO TRUE LOL
"Think FUCKED UP METALLICA"... wisdom.
Does anyone know which mics he uses for overheads?
Sanken CO-100k's.
3-7mics r good...
It is outrageous... honestly, I don't like it and I wish it were different... that just seems to be the way things go with a lot of tracking engineers these days--they aren't skilled enough to be able to place mics well, so they just place a mic everywhere... and when I get the tracks for the mix, it's chaos.
Also, there is inevitably too much hhat in every mic and phase incoherence between every mic... George knows best. I wish the ppl I worked with had the skill to do what he does.
This guy is fuckin hilarious
Yeah! that's all well for the adult but I had to stop the vid, my 3 year old was sitting on my lap watching with as much interest as I was. I'll pick this video up later I guess. :-)
Well at least she's ahead of the curve.
Think...Fucked up metallica.... HAHAHA
3:54 - 4:08 =)
Damnit! Which one of you upset George?
lol, they put them in the wrong fucking spot, whispers "i cant say fucking" "oh i can say fucking" lololol
i meant bravo' lol
Cool, No eq !
"Think 'fucked up Metallica'" 😂
All this talk and we haven't even heard what it sounds like. Not very compelling.
You hear it at the very beginning of the video… haha.
Haha, more swears. Be natural and just talk. It makes it more personal. :D
what's the intro song? i love a good ska song! and what's the name of this band?
what is the song in the intro?!
the more mics you have, you'll get alot of phase cancellation, 7 mics isn't alot. i record with at least 16 mics
And I'm sure you get lots of cancelations. ...
it's not only phase cancellation, it's also phase summing so basically 'comb-filtering' so some sounds are up to 2x louder than normal and others down to silent depending on phase interactions. Maybe we could call it phase-colorations.