what a fun look into the past of the game of 9 ball....very interesting rules they played with....many of my pool buddies dont think these guys could compete in todays game.....give both of these guys todays equipment and a little time to adjust and i think theyd be just fine.....both well deserving hall of famers
For years, and even though it’s called Texas Express, we played by these rules down in Houston.. Behind the line on the break, spot everything on a foul.. We did have a roll out option after the break, though.. The road players hated it!..
I appreciate the kind words. Glad you enjoy the top-level play as much as I do. I've met and heard from many of the players seen on my videos, who are now -- like myself -- in a "more advanced state of youth" and amusedly asking me, in effect: "Was I ever really that young and shooting so beautifully?"
ray carlton billiards First off, thanks for the reply. So many elements going on in this video. This was the year “The Color of Money” premiered in theatres. Paul Newman won best actor for reprising his role as pool shark “Fast” Eddie Felson. Nine ball had grown to fever pitch in popularity. Mike Sigel was a technical adviser to the movie. I like how I can look the production of ESPN and I actually would like for them to use some of the old graphics. I always have loved pool and I go every Saturday Night to Kingpins in Hattiesburg to practice. I play okay. I win some and I lose some. I could be better but I have always loved watching people like Mike “Captain Hook” Sigel and Earl “the Pearl” Strickland with their artistry, finesse, and showmanship. You probably will not believe when I tell you this but I think that I managed to buy a Balabushka at a flea market called The Lucky Rabbit that they hold monthly in my hometown. I have done a lot of research on it and I think that it is a Balabushka. It shoots like dream. It saddens me that I do not see it much on tv anymore, although you can find streams that have been recorded. Again, you are an excellent archivist to preserve history and allowing the world to see, especially with those no longer with us like Steve Mizerak and Willie Mosconi.
Ray, thank you very much for such high-quality uploads. I love being able to see/download stuff from this era, especially, because I was too young to have seen matches like these the first time around. upload everything you've got, man. I'll definitely be here to watch it!
Mike Sigel's cue stick does NOT bend when he hits the ball... it bends after he hits the ball, because his tip is on the table and he pulls the cue stick down with his right hand... its an easy illusion...
Robert Carroll The earlier rule set had it that the 1 would spot on the foot spot since "cue ball in hand" was behind the head string, but apparently no longer here. Given that the yet earlier rule set had it that all balls made on the break would spot on and behind the foot spot (in this case behind the 1), one rule step closer in hindsight to the Texas Express rules (no balls spot except the 9 on a cue ball scratch). I don't remember every rule set in detail, but they may have used Texas Express rules at this tournament, possibly with minor modifications for TV (in order not to confuse spectators - remember seeing some such modifications during e.g. ESPN Word 9-Ball TV matches). In hindsight, we all seemed to be in favor of not punishing the incoming player after the opponent's scratch on the break, however, speeding up the game has turned out to be only one aspect, the other being less tactical and safety exchanges (or shorter ones) after the break, which I must admit I miss, as in general, the rule sets aren't favoring intelligence over shotmaking ability anymore (making the game somewhat less colorful or at least multi-faceted than it used to be). It's a moot point whether it's what "the spectators want" (fast play, no safety exchanges etc.), given lesser TV exposure today…
For most Americans and Canadians in that time period it was more reflexive to see, hear, and pronounce, the word "Efren" as "Ephram" because of the multi-season, concurrently hugely popular FBI TV series starring Ephram Zimbalist. In any country, sound-alike prenoms and even surnames are routinely and erroneously conflated even by highly literate folks.
He was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge; but a man who commendably set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments quite efficiently. As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct, ad hoc "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera when speaking to, or about, them -- as anyone dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent might do.
Phil: The cameramen were innocent contractors, blamelessly following the video director's exact instructions radioed to them via their headsets -- in spite of how pool-adverse the instructions sometimes *inarguably were* . Before the advent of *computer-controlled camera positioning* (and today's remarkably sharp zoom lenses) there were *hundreds* of televised misses completely attributable to having a crouching cameraman directly in players' line- of-sight, often hovering inches away from the intended pocket. *All of that said however, lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters, video production companies, and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive) early-days' films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts* . Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
He was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge; but a man who commendably *set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments quite efficiently* . As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct, *ad hoc* "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, *he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera* when speaking to, or about, them -- as any hobby-level player -- dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do.
Danny won most of his high-stakes "challenge" (wagering) matches throughout his career and was always hesitant about raising his public profile too much by entering too many televised tournaments which would have led to having to give more weight to opponents than he wanted during his road games. Enter "Danny Medina pool" in your YT search box and you'll see a tiny handful of existing videos and clips that you may enjoy. He passed away much too young. Outstanding, highly creative, fearless player. More info about him at wiki and also AZBilliards (.com, of course). And here are 12 excellent Medina video choices: tinyurl.com/yylllheq (that you may not otherwise have known about or how to locate.)
I don't know how the players was able to make some of these shots with the camera man setting his camera on top of the pockets.what a distraction that was.
More than 3 centuries ago, Isaac Newton set the bar for the *classiest way to view progress in a given field* . When Newton's peers resoundingly praised the scientific progress he contributed to the world he humbly stated *“If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants”* New generations benefit from, and expand upon trial & error experiments and principles commendably resulting from previous generations (and *usually with newer and better equipment* as is the case with billiards and most sciences.)
1:55:42 commentator says "He's just going to spin this ball right in hole" referring to Varner and the 9-ball. Varner did look like he hit the shot with left spin but he hit the shot with such force there's no way the spin he used had any affect on the 9-ball. Still, an incredible shot by Varner at a crucial time of the match. This is what I think happened. Varner lined the shot up with left spin and where he lined up at he had to hit the shot that hard to squirt the cue ball to the right to make the shot.
He (Jack) is misusing the word "spin" to mean "cut" just as you are misusing the term "squirt" when the billiards physics involved was *throw* (left spin *throws* the OB to the right, as you'll already know). *Jack Johnson* was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. *with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge* but a man who commendably and appreciatively *set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments quite efficiently* . As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct -- actually simply *token* (out of the players' gratitude) -- ad hoc "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera (ex: Jose for Efren, etc. when speaking to, or about, them -- as any overexcited hobby-level player -- *dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do* . Cut him some slack, if you will, -- he did a lot for the pro players who were thrilled to play at the casinos on early televised pool and happy for a shot at respectable prize money (just as we lifelong fans were at being able to spectate *in-person* and via the nationwide broadcasts of the closing matches.
Bruce: A few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players) . *These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts* . Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
another thread about this a player who was there said the logo actually messed up the roll of the ball. it wasnt just distracting, it actually messed up the roll of the balls.
@@Ranger4244 but real pool players are happy they had an opportunity, one that made pool more popular and kept it alive longer. @Bruce Smith is capitalism unprofessional? Money pays bills. Be like Pretty Boy Floyd: get the cash no matter what.
Seems to be the "old" rules of 9-ball. I think a scratch on break requires opponent to play a ball above the headstring. Since the 1 ball was behind the ref got rid of it. Can anyone confirm that this is how it was played back then?
@@livinontheedge13your assessment is correct. Upon a foul if the next ball was in the kitchen. It is removed and next ball is played with the cue ball from behind the line
+vic vega Exactly the same position: *zero* percent. *Approximately* the same position: about 85 percent. It's a matter of logic in scoping out the "easiest" minimal-problems route that gets them an ideally productive angle on each sequential shot on the way to the frame-winning 9-ball. The kind of spin +speed control used in their personal envisioning of the rack navigation depends on their most reliable stroking strengths and preferences with specific kinds of CB spinning. My opinion only; your mileage may differ.
Did they continue to do the us 9 ball open? Or whatever this tournament is, I️ forget. I️ just can’t find this tournament in later years on the internet
After several years of watching pro pool players I have noticed that none of them ever check their cue tip after they chalk unlike Snooker players. How do they know that the chalk is even. Surely an uneven layer of chalk could cause a kick or alter the integrity of the contact between ball and cue.
*Jack Johnson* (the particular commentator you refer to, Ed) was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. *with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge* but a man who commendably and appreciatively *set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments extremely efficiently.* As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct -- actually simply *token* (out of the players' gratitude) -- ad hoc "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera (ex: Jose for Efren, etc. when speaking to, or about, them -- as any overexcited hobby-level player -- *dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do.* Cut him some slack, if you will, -- _he did a lot for the pro players who were thrilled to play at the casinos on early televised pool and happy for a shot at respectable prize money (just as we lifelong fans were at being able to spectate _*_in-person_*_ and via the nationwide broadcasts of the closing matches._
ray carlton billiards ● OK. Thanks for the quick response! Now I have a better understanding as to what happened. ● As a short aside, Mike Sigel always mispronounces Efren's name. I've watched AT LEAST a dozen videos where Mike wss either a player or a commentator. He inevitably calls Mr. Reyes "Efram".(Mike isn't the ONLY one who mispronounces Efren's name. But, as familiar as he is with Efren, I just thought it was (odd?).
Ed: . . . For any open-minded viewers occasionally wondering about that frequent mispronunciation, here's the precise reason for it: For many Americans and Canadians -- equally intelligent as you and I -- *in that time period (and even now)* it was more reflexive to see, hear, and pronounce, the word "Efren" as Ephrem because of the multi-season, hugely popular FBI TV series starring the oddly-named Ephram Zimbalist. In any country, sound-alike prenoms and even surnames are routinely and erroneously conflated *even by highly literate folks.* Can happen with any language. *I would think that -- given today's challenging and perilous times -- kindness and tolerance for others and all our harmless, generally humorous and innocent human foibles whenever possible goes a long way in lightening our daily lives.*
Bill Staton is heard expertly and mellifluously commentating throughout this hour-long vid which incidentally also centers on Sigel (in Sigel's finest 14.1 performance ever recorded): ruclips.net/video/PYGYGrChn5A/видео.html Grady's deep, southern inflected baritone is also a joy to listen to on this one. I was fortunate enough to be in the NYC audience for this match.
toward the end it doesnt really matter if he fouled or not. The ball is hanging in the pocket. Its just like having ball in hand anyway. Especially to these guys.
In the 13th rack of the Sigel-Garcia match, After Sigel scratches on the break, the referee pushes the 1 ball into the pocket before placing the cue ball on the table for Garcia. Why did he do that?
I found the explanation for you, Sepant: *_If the cue ball scratches on the break and the lowest number object ball is in the kitchen, that ball is put down and the incoming player now shoots from the kitchen at the lowest number object ball. That's why the ref put the 1-ball down_*
Our beloved sport is a complex, beautiful, healthful and totally engaging one, whose situational rules are officially refined progressively as needed. They have become less "weird" over time. This video's case involved the applicable, widely employed rule/practice in 1986. Professional and casual pool playing which roughly resembles what is played today is about 173 years-old. *_With up to 15 object balls (for given disciplines like 8-, 9-, and10-ball; Straight Pool, One-Pocket, Banks, etc.) plus the cue ball as the equipment base, there are many, many thousands of situations that must be governed and resolved via disseminated rules_* The rules have in fact, been purified to the point that fewer and fewer future generations who play, will find specific rules to be either weird or totally impractical IMO.
Michael: If you're interested here are a few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players) . These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . *The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts* . Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
Pool was so classy back then. No silly sports shirts with funny names plastered on them. People knew who you were as soon as you entered the room. Must be so uncomfortable though to play so dressed up.
Veronica: For more than a hundred years of MAJOR billiards tournaments starting in the late 19th century and during about 3/4 of the 20th century, *_no player in history was ever comfortable playing in a tuxedo_* but whenever deemed necessary, sensible players did it in willing compliance with sporadic efforts to enhance the general public's sometimes negative perception of the sport's image. The players generally had a shot at substantial money (for the times) and quite willingly cooperated (wouldn't anyone?) with any promoter's dress codes whenever that's the look the production company (and appreciative sponsors) wanted. It was "their dime", (the funding that made certain major events possible -- to delight of fans of quality pool events. In former days, tuxedos were often contractually required either for the entire tournament (or sometimes only for closing matches) by promoters of many high-stakes, televised major tournaments. ~ Ray C.
Trip: If you or other viewers might be interested here are a few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players) . *These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts* . Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 Was wondering how distracting or not at all it was for the players. Really enjoying going back and watching these old tournaments and comparing the game play to today. Mike Sigel was quite a dominating figure around the table. It's funny... the game remains unchanged only the people holding the sticks are.
Enjoy some pool history facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament: Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that *_the casinos_* were -- thankfully -- experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the firs time, (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino *_contractual relationships_* The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of *_poker table fabric_* thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history .
A cue's thin at the tip but grows thicker until the butt end. Whilst his cue followed through the thicker part brushed the 7 ball. Mike didn't cheat... He just wasn't aware of the foul.
Everybody wants to talk about the cameraman but that ref needs to learn what he's doing because that was clearly not a foul he did not foul the 7 at all he hit it with the cue stick you can clearly see that's why at the end Mike Siegel shook the man's hand and said guess what I still won
@@liambaker6423 It's always hard to compare players from different eras, especially when a sport evolved so much. It's almost like Snooker, where Joe and Fred Davis share a ridiculous 23 world champion titles between them - it's not comparable by any means. And as Gerhard Berger said about the great Ayrton Senna: to be the greatest is not only about being the fastest or who wins the most. Sports is not only about what you achieve for yourself - sportsmanship is a package.
Kev Dav please don't mistake me for the anyone else, I am not that guy. Now if you would please look at the "first" side shot of him shooting that shot you will see the ball shake. Not the later angles but the very first, from the side.
Kev Dav You have the facts wrong. Referee Ron O’Brian and tournament officials consulted a TV monitor near the finals table - the first instant replay in pool history. The 7-ball didn’t seem to budge upon review, but O’Brian trusted his eyes, and the judgment call stood. He later said: “From that angle on TV, I admit it looks like the 7 ball wasn’t touched, but from where I stood, the cue ball *did* hit the 7.” This info is from Pool & Billiards magazine's report on the match.
Hey Kev, I must say you must be looking at this shot on your phone or laptop, maybe even a crt monitor. Now I understand that there is just a difference of opinions here but you have to look very close. Please take the time to view this on a full HD monitor and look at the shot and not the replay, also don't look at the ball itself but look for a spot on it. Look at the white on the top of the ball where the white circle is and you will see the shake. From that angle it is very faint but guessing from the ref it was perfect and I commend him for keeping his eyes on the ball (no pun intended). I am sure that in your years of play you had to of seen this happen once where a ball was hit so lightly that it appeared to not move at all. I trust that you will see what the ref did.
Kev Dav That's what it looks like to me: Mike does not appear to shoot the cue ball into the 7 (despite the optical illusion, there appears to be a tiny little space between the balls which Mike refers to as "plenty of room"), yet it wobbled. Looking from the top down it appears the white number circle on the 7 grows larger - an indication that it did in fact move. It's merely hard to see why exactly. It does look as if the 7 moves after the cue ball left versus near-simulaneously, if anything an indication that the cue (coming up from the shot) was the culprit. The way I remember those thick wool cloths (I loved them, by the way, and think we should return to slower cloths, so people would have to work on their stroke and not poke at the ball as so many modern players do), object balls would sometimes "fall" into small indentations in the cloth (roll over by a fraction of a rotation) especially on tables like the Gandy model here, or the entry-tournament model Brunswick Centurion, as those tables were top-heavy with the slate resting on a comparatively light substructure, these tables would vibrate upon down-stroking into the table bed (as Mike does here), actually, I always felt they weren't solid as a rock leaning against them (being short and slim myself). In short, apart from what Mike said himself, that he may have grazed the cue ball with his cue (which it doesn't look to me as though he did, but he may very well have), there's any number of reasons why the 7 may have visibly wobbled a bit - very tough call. It sure looks like a foul given modern all-ball fouls, but the exact reason why the 7 moved is hard to see (of course the relevant question at the time was whether or not it was a cue ball foul). On a side note, I've suffered from bad or just plain wrong referee calls sometimes, including ones the referee had to take back, but have also seen fouls on video that neither player nor referee noticed, in the heat of the battle, a call that may have changed (but didn't in the end) the outcome of a match worth 40 grand, can't say I envy the referee's position who I'm sure saw "something" (but then the human eye is no high-speed camera, not even the telly resolution we get here is sufficient to make a call either way with absolute certainty) - in a nutshell, I agree one should try and be pragmatic and wait for another chance. Not much of a lead, though, against a player of this calibre, easier to be said than done to keep one's calm - but really, once one's had one's share of referee calls either way (and I'm sure Mike did), one learns to just nod and let go…
Marvin St John ● Either way, it all comes down to the referee's judgement. I would assume that, if the players found fault with the ref's call, there's a process to take it up with the "tournament director". At least, that's how it worked in any tournaments that I played in. But, if there was no "tournament director" available, the judgement was left up to the referee. As with any game/tournament, the rules are written down, and, you either agree to play with those rules, or, you don't play. It's your choice.
Mikes cue bending upon the break, doesn't mean he's hitting them that hard. He bends it on the follow through on purpose. There is no reason for it, imo.
kingstaff4 you're right it is done intentionally. It is a common practice among some of the best breakers in the world. Bustamante Jeffrey De Luna Karl Boyes and I believe Larry Nevel arguably the best Breaker of all time. Mike Sigel was Known in this period for having one of the greatest breaks on the tour. Actually Shane Van Boening learned to break from watching Sigel
It is his body swing momentum going up while he is holding his cue down on table. That upswing throw of his body thus makes his cue bend. If he tries to prevent bending his cue, he would not have proper follow though on his break and of course not give him a proper power break stroke.
Lou: If you're open to a few facts behind the cloth and that *table-center logo* they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully* experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the firs time, (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of *poker table fabric* -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history .
Jack Johnson (the particular commentator you refer to, Danny) was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge but a man who commendably and appreciatively set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments extremely efficiently. As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct -- actually simply token (out of the players' gratitude) -- ad hoc "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera (ex: Jose for Efren, etc. when speaking to, or about, them -- as any overexcited hobby-level player -- dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do. _We respectfully always cut him plenty of slack for occasional "name" lapses because did so much for the pro players who were thrilled to play at the casinos on early televised pool and happy for a shot at respectable prize money (just as we lifelong fans were at being able to spectate in-person and via the nationwide broadcasts of the closing matches_
Darin: Enjoy some pool history facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament: Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were -- thankfully -- experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the firs time, (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of *_poker table fabric_* thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history ~ Ray C
+Chuck Holden Actually those tables appear to be the Gandy mfg. "Big G" brand ,,,,,,, not worthy of pro standards, .... in my opinion. Gold Crown is still a very good table even by todays standards .
3rd last rack where he shoots the 8 in the center, u can see the weird tablefitting with shotty rubber edges. Table looks like a nightmare to play on tbh.
Billy: Enjoy some pool history facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament: Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were -- thankfully -- experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the firs time, (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history ~ Ray C.
The players had to deal with , " "cyclops " the cameraman doing the head on camera shots , now that is another distraction the players had to deal with. What other sport does the cameraman get to ,"shark" you while you are trying to perform. DUMB IDEA , LET THE PLAYERS PLAY , THE GAME IS TOUGH ENOUGH !!!!! The LOGO is another dumb idea .
Many pros would get "camera-bit" and badly miss easy shots when shooting at the 2-ball (as any shooter would when the director's cameraman was ordered into players' line of sight to get a view of the ball coming at the pocket). A very common annoyance in the '80s and '90s before mostly computer-controlled, more distant video camera work became widespread at pool events. Logos of various casinos were frequently seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with *sponsoring* and *heavily promoting pro pool for the first time* (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino *contractual relationships* . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Helpful intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 thanks for the uploads of old school pool matches. Unfortunate for the players and the sport the game of pool never got established with sponsors and regular events. Pool and snooker are growing rapidly in CHINA, and other Asian countries love pool. Last year a televised world title Snooker match had 300 mil. viewers in CHINA. I been around the Jointed Cue Billiards poolroom since 1974 in Sacto., .CA. Nice to sweat some good pool . Thanks.
Jack Johnson (the particular commentator you refer to, Sean) was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge but a man who commendably and appreciatively set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments extremely efficiently. As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct -- actually simply token (out of the players' gratitude) -- ad hoc "color" commentator. *_Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera (ex: Jose for Efren, etc. when speaking to, or about, them -- as any overexcited hobby-level player -- dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do *_** *We respectfully always cut him plenty of slack for occasional "name" lapses because did so much for the pro players who were thrilled to play at the casinos on early televised pool and happy for a shot at respectable prize money (just as we lifelong fans were at being able to spectate in-person and via the nationwide broadcasts of the closing matches*
Corner pockets averaged 5" at the mouth, 4 and 1/8" at the throat. Side pockets 4 and 5/8" at the throat. (The word "throat" refers to area of the pocket nearest to the pocket's ball-drop receptacle.)
That HUGE "Resorts" logo on the table is extremely distracting. Was that there during the actual game, or, is it just there on this video? There's no way I would play such an important match with something like that on the table. It would be like, "Hey! I just covered my pool table with genuine zebra skin. Wanna come over and play for $10,000?"
Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships. The *table* seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Had you personally possessed the skill to reach one of the closing matches, your refusing to play on such a table would have been of little interest to the casino or the pro tour. Another pro would have taken your place happily, and you'd be given a free seat in the audience (and would almost certainly be excluded from future pro tour events). Not a good career move I think you'd agree. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Helpful intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
ray carlton ● OK. Thanks. Nowadays, they simply "project" images onto the table top, via video equipment. Sort of like watching the football games on TV, and seeing the "10-yard gain" image. The TV viewers can see it, but, the players can't.
AMG: If you're open to a few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). *These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts.* Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
Efren didnt make it to too many finals when Sigel ruled. Look how hard these guys have to hit every shot. Anyone who doesn’t see that these conditions were tougher has no idea how much harder it was to play. Mike won 7 professional tournaments that year.
Slow indeed, and there are a few facts behind the cloth they used in this tournament Luis, that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships. The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an *extremely* slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of *poker* table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Helpful intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
All three men are BCA Hall of Fame inductees. World-class players obviously, with more than 270 major tournament wins collectively, in a variety of pool disciplines.
Tuis: If you're open to a few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with *_an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric_* -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. *Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history* .
This is the match that got me started in pool!!!!!! :-) Thanks for the throwback!!!!
what a fun look into the past of the game of 9 ball....very interesting rules they played with....many of my pool buddies dont think these guys could compete in todays game.....give both of these guys todays equipment and a little time to adjust and i think theyd be just fine.....both well deserving hall of famers
For years, and even though it’s called Texas Express, we played by these rules down in Houston.. Behind the line on the break, spot everything on a foul.. We did have a roll out option after the break, though..
The road players hated it!..
Thanks for uploading this. It is pure joy watching old school billiards being played.
I appreciate the kind words. Glad you enjoy the top-level play as much as I do. I've met and heard from many of the players seen on my videos, who are now -- like myself -- in a "more advanced state of youth" and amusedly asking me, in effect: "Was I ever really that young and shooting so beautifully?"
ray carlton billiards First off, thanks for the reply. So many elements going on in this video. This was the year “The Color of Money” premiered in theatres. Paul Newman won best actor for reprising his role as pool shark “Fast” Eddie Felson. Nine ball had grown to fever pitch in popularity. Mike Sigel was a technical adviser to the movie. I like how I can look the production of ESPN and I actually would like for them to use some of the old graphics. I always have loved pool and I go every Saturday Night to Kingpins in Hattiesburg to practice. I play okay. I win some and I lose some. I could be better but I have always loved watching people like Mike “Captain Hook” Sigel and Earl “the Pearl” Strickland with their artistry, finesse, and showmanship. You probably will not believe when I tell you this but I think that I managed to buy a Balabushka at a flea market called The Lucky Rabbit that they hold monthly in my hometown. I have done a lot of research on it and I think that it is a Balabushka. It shoots like dream. It saddens me that I do not see it much on tv anymore, although you can find streams that have been recorded. Again, you are an excellent archivist to preserve history and allowing the world to see, especially with those no longer with us like Steve Mizerak and Willie Mosconi.
Ray, thank you very much for such high-quality uploads. I love being able to see/download stuff from this era, especially, because I was too young to have seen matches like these the first time around. upload everything you've got, man. I'll definitely be here to watch it!
Awesome match, thanks for uploading!
Mike Sigel's cue stick does NOT bend when he hits the ball... it bends after he hits the ball, because his tip is on the table and he pulls the cue stick down with his right hand... its an easy illusion...
1:23:05 the ref just knocks the 1 ball in with his hand. Never seen that before
Robert Carroll The earlier rule set had it that the 1 would spot on the foot spot since "cue ball in hand" was behind the head string, but apparently no longer here. Given that the yet earlier rule set had it that all balls made on the break would spot on and behind the foot spot (in this case behind the 1), one rule step closer in hindsight to the Texas Express rules (no balls spot except the 9 on a cue ball scratch). I don't remember every rule set in detail, but they may have used Texas Express rules at this tournament, possibly with minor modifications for TV (in order not to confuse spectators - remember seeing some such modifications during e.g. ESPN Word 9-Ball TV matches).
In hindsight, we all seemed to be in favor of not punishing the incoming player after the opponent's scratch on the break, however, speeding up the game has turned out to be only one aspect, the other being less tactical and safety exchanges (or shorter ones) after the break, which I must admit I miss, as in general, the rule sets aren't favoring intelligence over shotmaking ability anymore (making the game somewhat less colorful or at least multi-faceted than it used to be). It's a moot point whether it's what "the spectators want" (fast play, no safety exchanges etc.), given lesser TV exposure today…
The commentator who keeps calling Jose "Efren" lol
Not only is he doing that, but he's saying EFRIM...
For most Americans and Canadians in that time period it was more reflexive to see, hear, and pronounce, the word "Efren" as "Ephram" because of the multi-season, concurrently hugely popular FBI TV series starring Ephram Zimbalist. In any country, sound-alike prenoms and even surnames are routinely and erroneously conflated even by highly literate folks.
He was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge; but a man who commendably set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments quite efficiently. As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct, ad hoc "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera when speaking to, or about, them -- as anyone dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent might do.
God, those cameramen are OBNOXIOUS. Do they HAVE to stand right up on the pocket?
Phil: The cameramen were innocent contractors, blamelessly following the video director's exact instructions radioed to them via their headsets -- in spite of how pool-adverse the instructions sometimes *inarguably were* . Before the advent of *computer-controlled camera positioning* (and today's remarkably sharp zoom lenses) there were *hundreds* of televised misses completely attributable to having a crouching cameraman directly in players' line- of-sight, often hovering inches away from the intended pocket. *All of that said however, lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters, video production companies, and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive) early-days' films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts* . Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
instead of complaining about the cameras i just wish they were back filming again helping pool i miss the days when it was on espn
1:02:33 Yeah, that camera man would make me miss too. FFS.
Man just look at those buckets
He keeps calling Jose, Effren lol
He was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge; but a man who commendably *set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments quite efficiently* . As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct, *ad hoc* "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, *he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera* when speaking to, or about, them -- as any hobby-level player -- dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do.
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 this is the only Danny medina match I could find, he was feared by a lot of the top pros, why no tv coverage of his matches?
Danny won most of his high-stakes "challenge" (wagering) matches throughout his career and was always hesitant about raising his public profile too much by entering too many televised tournaments which would have led to having to give more weight to opponents than he wanted during his road games. Enter "Danny Medina pool" in your YT search box and you'll see a tiny handful of existing videos and clips that you may enjoy. He passed away much too young. Outstanding, highly creative, fearless player. More info about him at wiki and also AZBilliards (.com, of course). And here are 12 excellent Medina video choices: tinyurl.com/yylllheq (that you may not otherwise have known about or how to locate.)
I don't know how the players was able to make some of these shots with the camera man setting his camera on top of the pockets.what a distraction that was.
Mike's woman crying real tears in the end...... That's real love there.
Oh how the game has progressed.
Oh how you have no idea what you're talking about!
How has it progressed? Everyone who is good right now is technically very good, but low on entertainment value. They are grim, like gunslingers.
@@ficheye00 Exactly!! They have ZERO personality now.
More than 3 centuries ago, Isaac Newton set the bar for the *classiest way to view progress in a given field* . When Newton's peers resoundingly praised the scientific progress he contributed to the world he humbly stated *“If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants”* New generations benefit from, and expand upon trial & error experiments and principles commendably resulting from previous generations (and *usually with newer and better equipment* as is the case with billiards and most sciences.)
1:55:42 commentator says "He's just going to spin this ball right in hole" referring to Varner and the 9-ball. Varner did look like he hit the shot with left spin but he hit the shot with such force there's no way the spin he used had any affect on the 9-ball. Still, an incredible shot by Varner at a crucial time of the match. This is what I think happened. Varner lined the shot up with left spin and where he lined up at he had to hit the shot that hard to squirt the cue ball to the right to make the shot.
He (Jack) is misusing the word "spin" to mean "cut" just as you are misusing the term "squirt" when the billiards physics involved was *throw* (left spin *throws* the OB to the right, as you'll already know). *Jack Johnson* was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. *with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge* but a man who commendably and appreciatively *set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments quite efficiently* . As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct -- actually simply *token* (out of the players' gratitude) -- ad hoc "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera (ex: Jose for Efren, etc. when speaking to, or about, them -- as any overexcited hobby-level player -- *dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do* . Cut him some slack, if you will, -- he did a lot for the pro players who were thrilled to play at the casinos on early televised pool and happy for a shot at respectable prize money (just as we lifelong fans were at being able to spectate *in-person* and via the nationwide broadcasts of the closing matches.
It’s Jack Johnston
Geez that huge sticker on the table must be distracting...extremely unprofessional to slap an ad there on the playing surface
Bruce: A few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players) . *These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts* . Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
another thread about this a player who was there said the logo actually messed up the roll of the ball. it wasnt just distracting, it actually messed up the roll of the balls.
@@Ranger4244 but real pool players are happy they had an opportunity, one that made pool more popular and kept it alive longer. @Bruce Smith is capitalism unprofessional? Money pays bills. Be like Pretty Boy Floyd: get the cash no matter what.
I know right??? Like, we all know where the match is being played 😂😂
Great post!
'why was that a good shot? don't forget the why and how'
I wasn't aware of this rule... at 1:23:08 where the ref pots the 1 ball?
Seems to be the "old" rules of 9-ball. I think a scratch on break requires opponent to play a ball above the headstring. Since the 1 ball was behind the ref got rid of it. Can anyone confirm that this is how it was played back then?
@@livinontheedge13your assessment is correct. Upon a foul if the next ball was in the kitchen. It is removed and next ball is played with the cue ball from behind the line
With a wide open table, what percentage of pro's will play the same position to run the table?
+vic vega Exactly the same position: *zero* percent. *Approximately* the same position: about 85 percent. It's a matter of logic in scoping out the "easiest" minimal-problems route that gets them an ideally productive angle on each sequential shot on the way to the frame-winning 9-ball. The kind of spin +speed control used in their personal envisioning of the rack navigation depends on their most reliable stroking strengths and preferences with specific kinds of CB spinning. My opinion only; your mileage may differ.
No way I could shoot with that camera sitting behind every ball!
Did they continue to do the us 9 ball open? Or whatever this tournament is, I️ forget. I️ just can’t find this tournament in later years on the internet
Captain Hook had his mind on the money. Great match.
Glad you enjoyed it, Fred.
Second set, hill match for Mike, why does the one go down after the scratch on the break?
at the 21min mark they talking about most balls on the break. years ago at the deadwood sd 9 ball shootout a player made 7 balls on the break.
After several years of watching pro pool players I have noticed that none of them ever check their cue tip after they chalk unlike Snooker players. How do they know that the chalk is even. Surely an uneven layer of chalk could cause a kick or alter the integrity of the contact between ball and cue.
That "Resorts" logo on the table would distract my pool play for sure.
♥♥ Why does the commentator keep calling Jose Parica "Efren"?
*Jack Johnson* (the particular commentator you refer to, Ed) was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. *with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge* but a man who commendably and appreciatively *set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments extremely efficiently.* As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct -- actually simply *token* (out of the players' gratitude) -- ad hoc "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera (ex: Jose for Efren, etc. when speaking to, or about, them -- as any overexcited hobby-level player -- *dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do.* Cut him some slack, if you will, -- _he did a lot for the pro players who were thrilled to play at the casinos on early televised pool and happy for a shot at respectable prize money (just as we lifelong fans were at being able to spectate _*_in-person_*_ and via the nationwide broadcasts of the closing matches._
ray carlton billiards ● OK. Thanks for the quick response!
Now I have a better understanding as to what happened.
● As a short aside, Mike Sigel always mispronounces Efren's name. I've watched AT LEAST a dozen videos where Mike wss either a player or a commentator. He inevitably calls Mr. Reyes "Efram".(Mike isn't the ONLY one who mispronounces Efren's name. But, as familiar as he is with Efren, I just thought it was (odd?).
Ed: . . . For any open-minded viewers occasionally wondering about that frequent mispronunciation, here's the precise reason for it: For many Americans and Canadians -- equally intelligent as you and I -- *in that time period (and even now)* it was more reflexive to see, hear, and pronounce, the word "Efren" as Ephrem because of the multi-season, hugely popular FBI TV series starring the oddly-named Ephram Zimbalist. In any country, sound-alike prenoms and even surnames are routinely and erroneously conflated *even by highly literate folks.* Can happen with any language. *I would think that -- given today's challenging and perilous times -- kindness and tolerance for others and all our harmless, generally humorous and innocent human foibles whenever possible goes a long way in lightening our daily lives.*
It’s Johnston
Weanie Beanie speaks close to exactly the same as Nick Varner does. If I didn't know better I would have thought it was Nick Varner speaking.
Bill Staton is heard expertly and mellifluously commentating throughout this hour-long vid which incidentally also centers on Sigel (in Sigel's finest 14.1 performance ever recorded):
ruclips.net/video/PYGYGrChn5A/видео.html
Grady's deep, southern inflected baritone is also a joy to listen to on this one. I was fortunate enough to be in the NYC audience for this match.
toward the end it doesnt really matter if he fouled or not. The ball is hanging in the pocket. Its just like having ball in hand anyway. Especially to these guys.
In the 13th rack of the Sigel-Garcia match, After Sigel scratches on the break, the referee pushes the 1 ball into the pocket before placing the cue ball on the table for Garcia. Why did he do that?
Provide a time stamp for where that occurs, Sepant, if you will.
@@raycarltonbilliards57981:22:50
I found the explanation for you, Sepant: *_If the cue ball scratches on the break and the lowest number object ball is in the kitchen, that ball is put down and the incoming player now shoots from the kitchen at the lowest number object ball. That's why the ref put the 1-ball down_*
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 Thank you for your response, there are some weird rules in the game!
Our beloved sport is a complex, beautiful, healthful and totally engaging one, whose situational rules are officially refined progressively as needed. They have become less "weird" over time. This video's case involved the applicable, widely employed rule/practice in 1986. Professional and casual pool playing which roughly resembles what is played today is about 173 years-old. *_With up to 15 object balls (for given disciplines like 8-, 9-, and10-ball; Straight Pool, One-Pocket, Banks, etc.) plus the cue ball as the equipment base, there are many, many thousands of situations that must be governed and resolved via disseminated rules_* The rules have in fact, been purified to the point that fewer and fewer future generations who play, will find specific rules to be either weird or totally impractical IMO.
the stick doesnt bend when they hit the ball it bends when they shove it down on the table
Thank you!! Drives me nuts when they obsess about that!
IKR! What's the sense of bending the crap out of your perfectly straight cue
@@michaeljbanaszak3620 well they use a different cue to break as they don't want to bend the cue they play with
Just glad I'm not the only one that wonders why they go crazy over it.
It's ridiculous
This felt is super slow. Its like trying to shoot through grass for christ sake.
Michael: If you're interested here are a few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players) . These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . *The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts* . Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
Pool was so classy back then. No silly sports shirts with funny names plastered on them. People knew who you were as soon as you entered the room. Must be so uncomfortable though to play so dressed up.
Veronica: For more than a hundred years of MAJOR billiards tournaments starting in the late 19th century and during about 3/4 of the 20th century, *_no player in history was ever comfortable playing in a tuxedo_* but whenever deemed necessary, sensible players did it in willing compliance with sporadic efforts to enhance the general public's sometimes negative perception of the sport's image. The players generally had a shot at substantial money (for the times) and quite willingly cooperated (wouldn't anyone?) with any promoter's dress codes whenever that's the look the production company (and appreciative sponsors) wanted. It was "their dime", (the funding that made certain major events possible -- to delight of fans of quality pool events. In former days, tuxedos were often contractually required either for the entire tournament (or sometimes only for closing matches) by promoters of many high-stakes, televised major tournaments. ~ Ray C.
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 ..how interesting! I didn't know the complete history. Thanks for letting me know!
Wow having to play with that logo in the middle of the table is crazy. very distracting
Trip: If you or other viewers might be interested here are a few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players) . *These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts* . Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 Was wondering how distracting or not at all it was for the players. Really enjoying going back and watching these old tournaments and comparing the game play to today. Mike Sigel was quite a dominating figure around the table. It's funny... the game remains unchanged only the people holding the sticks are.
That Resorts logo in the middle of the table is driving me nuts 😫😫😫
Enjoy some pool history facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament:
Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that *_the casinos_* were -- thankfully -- experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the firs time, (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino *_contractual relationships_* The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of *_poker table fabric_* thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo.
Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history .
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 ...amazing facts! Thank you!
A cue's thin at the tip but grows thicker until the butt end. Whilst his cue followed through the thicker part brushed the 7 ball. Mike didn't cheat... He just wasn't aware of the foul.
Vaya esa forma de manejar el palo .. parece Efrén reyes
*Esa es una observación muy precisa, Jose. Gracias por mencionar eso.*
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 a ti amig@ que subes este contenido y pueda verlo... Gracias a ti
Saludos y bendiciones
*Feliz navidad y próspero año nuevo, a ti amigo Jose.*
*
Everybody wants to talk about the cameraman but that ref needs to learn what he's doing because that was clearly not a foul he did not foul the 7 at all he hit it with the cue stick you can clearly see that's why at the end Mike Siegel shook the man's hand and said guess what I still won
Buddy Hall is right in front, seated close to Mike.
Mike won over 107 tournaments no one was as good as he was
Exactly right. The logic is indisputable. If they were as good, they would have won the tournaments.
How about the money games how many did he won?
What about the Perl
Hahaha... Until Efren came along
@@liambaker6423 It's always hard to compare players from different eras, especially when a sport evolved so much. It's almost like Snooker, where Joe and Fred Davis share a ridiculous 23 world champion titles between them - it's not comparable by any means. And as Gerhard Berger said about the great Ayrton Senna: to be the greatest is not only about being the fastest or who wins the most. Sports is not only about what you achieve for yourself - sportsmanship is a package.
Push was unknown at the time?
Kev Dav please don't mistake me for the anyone else, I am not that guy. Now if you would please look at the "first" side shot of him shooting that shot you will see the ball shake. Not the later angles but the very first, from the side.
My Favorite !
Glad you like it, Eddie. There are plenty more on my channel.
foul on all balls, doesn't matter if it was the tip or the shaft, ball cant NOT move during stroke, matters none if it's the tip or the shaft
Good call by the ref, most would of missed it most did but it didn't matter
Kev Dav You have the facts wrong. Referee Ron O’Brian and tournament officials consulted a TV monitor near the finals table - the first instant replay in pool history. The 7-ball didn’t seem to budge upon review, but O’Brian trusted his eyes, and the judgment call stood. He later said: “From that angle on TV, I admit it looks like the 7 ball wasn’t touched, but from where I stood, the cue ball *did* hit the 7.” This info is from Pool & Billiards magazine's report on the match.
Hey Kev, I must say you must be looking at this shot on your phone or laptop, maybe even a crt monitor. Now I understand that there is just a difference of opinions here but you have to look very close. Please take the time to view this on a full HD monitor and look at the shot and not the replay, also don't look at the ball itself but look for a spot on it. Look at the white on the top of the ball where the white circle is and you will see the shake. From that angle it is very faint but guessing from the ref it was perfect and I commend him for keeping his eyes on the ball (no pun intended). I am sure that in your years of play you had to of seen this happen once where a ball was hit so lightly that it appeared to not move at all. I trust that you will see what the ref did.
Kev Dav That's what it looks like to me: Mike does not appear to shoot the cue ball into the 7 (despite the optical illusion, there appears to be a tiny little space between the balls which Mike refers to as "plenty of room"), yet it wobbled. Looking from the top down it appears the white number circle on the 7 grows larger - an indication that it did in fact move. It's merely hard to see why exactly. It does look as if the 7 moves after the cue ball left versus near-simulaneously, if anything an indication that the cue (coming up from the shot) was the culprit.
The way I remember those thick wool cloths (I loved them, by the way, and think we should return to slower cloths, so people would have to work on their stroke and not poke at the ball as so many modern players do), object balls would sometimes "fall" into small indentations in the cloth (roll over by a fraction of a rotation) especially on tables like the Gandy model here, or the entry-tournament model Brunswick Centurion, as those tables were top-heavy with the slate resting on a comparatively light substructure, these tables would vibrate upon down-stroking into the table bed (as Mike does here), actually, I always felt they weren't solid as a rock leaning against them (being short and slim myself). In short, apart from what Mike said himself, that he may have grazed the cue ball with his cue (which it doesn't look to me as though he did, but he may very well have), there's any number of reasons why the 7 may have visibly wobbled a bit - very tough call. It sure looks like a foul given modern all-ball fouls, but the exact reason why the 7 moved is hard to see (of course the relevant question at the time was whether or not it was a cue ball foul).
On a side note, I've suffered from bad or just plain wrong referee calls sometimes, including ones the referee had to take back, but have also seen fouls on video that neither player nor referee noticed, in the heat of the battle, a call that may have changed (but didn't in the end) the outcome of a match worth 40 grand, can't say I envy the referee's position who I'm sure saw "something" (but then the human eye is no high-speed camera, not even the telly resolution we get here is sufficient to make a call either way with absolute certainty) - in a nutshell, I agree one should try and be pragmatic and wait for another chance. Not much of a lead, though, against a player of this calibre, easier to be said than done to keep one's calm - but really, once one's had one's share of referee calls either way (and I'm sure Mike did), one learns to just nod and let go…
Marvin St John ● Either way, it all comes down to the referee's judgement. I would assume that, if the players found fault with the ref's call, there's a process to take it up with the "tournament director". At least, that's how it worked in any tournaments that I played in. But, if there was no "tournament director" available, the judgement was left up to the referee. As with any game/tournament, the rules are written down, and, you either agree to play with those rules, or, you don't play. It's your choice.
de belles accélàrations,la blanche qui circule bien j aime
Mikes cue bending upon the break, doesn't mean he's hitting them that hard. He bends it on the follow through on purpose. There is no reason for it, imo.
kingstaff4 you're right it is done intentionally. It is a common practice among some of the best breakers in the world. Bustamante Jeffrey De Luna Karl Boyes and I believe Larry Nevel arguably the best Breaker of all time. Mike Sigel was Known in this period for having one of the greatest breaks on the tour. Actually Shane Van Boening learned to break from watching Sigel
It ensures a consistent stroke on the break
It is his body swing momentum going up while he is holding his cue down on table. That upswing throw of his body thus makes his cue bend. If he tries to prevent bending his cue, he would not have proper follow though on his break and of course not give him a proper power break stroke.
That table is covered with shag carpet slow and ugly
Lou: If you're open to a few facts behind the cloth and that *table-center logo* they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully* experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the firs time, (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of *poker table fabric* -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo.
Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history .
4:10 - "he feels like his break is so much more powerful than Efren's" 🤣 I'm pretty sure he meant to say Jose
Jack Johnson (the particular commentator you refer to, Danny) was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge but a man who commendably and appreciatively set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments extremely efficiently. As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct -- actually simply token (out of the players' gratitude) -- ad hoc "color" commentator. Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera (ex: Jose for Efren, etc. when speaking to, or about, them -- as any overexcited hobby-level player -- dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do. _We respectfully always cut him plenty of slack for occasional "name" lapses because did so much for the pro players who were thrilled to play at the casinos on early televised pool and happy for a shot at respectable prize money (just as we lifelong fans were at being able to spectate in-person and via the nationwide broadcasts of the closing matches_
It’s Johnston
The cloth on this table appears to be so slow compared to what we play now.
Darin: Enjoy some pool history facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament: Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were -- thankfully -- experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the firs time, (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of *_poker table fabric_* thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo.
Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history ~ Ray C
This was before push out was introduced
Sharked by the cameraman
Big pocket Gold crowns and slow cloth, Those were the days
+Chuck Holden Actually those tables appear to be the Gandy mfg. "Big G" brand ,,,,,,, not worthy of pro standards, .... in my opinion. Gold Crown is still a very good table even by todays standards .
3rd last rack where he shoots the 8 in the center, u can see the weird tablefitting with shotty rubber edges. Table looks like a nightmare to play on tbh.
The more I watch the more that crazy logo bothers me
Billy: Enjoy some pool history facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament: Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were -- thankfully -- experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the firs time, (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo.
Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history ~ Ray C.
The players had to deal with , " "cyclops " the cameraman doing the head on camera shots , now that is another distraction the players had to deal with. What other sport does the cameraman
get to ,"shark" you while you are trying to perform. DUMB IDEA ,
LET THE PLAYERS PLAY , THE GAME IS TOUGH ENOUGH !!!!!
The LOGO is another dumb idea .
Many pros would get "camera-bit" and badly miss easy shots when shooting at the 2-ball (as any shooter would when the director's cameraman was ordered into players' line of sight to get a view of the ball coming at the pocket). A very common annoyance in the '80s and '90s before mostly computer-controlled, more distant video camera work became widespread at pool events.
Logos of various casinos were frequently seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with *sponsoring* and *heavily promoting pro pool for the first time* (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino *contractual relationships* . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Helpful intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 thanks for the uploads of old school pool matches. Unfortunate for the players and the sport the game of pool never got established with sponsors and regular events. Pool and snooker are growing rapidly in CHINA, and other Asian countries love pool.
Last year a televised world title
Snooker match had 300 mil.
viewers in CHINA. I been around the Jointed Cue Billiards poolroom since 1974 in Sacto., .CA. Nice to sweat some
good pool . Thanks.
Speaking of "Color of Money, what ever happened to FAST EDDIE?😮
He slowed down.
That "RESORTS" on table is distracting.😮😢
Ahh, 1986. That was back when Atlantic City was "beautiful."
Kept calling parika efren
Jack Johnson (the particular commentator you refer to, Sean) was a very respected casino employee from the casino's special events dept. with only a hobby-level basic pool knowledge but a man who commendably and appreciatively set up a number of experimental, early-days major pool tournaments extremely efficiently. As a casino rep, he was conscripted as an adjunct -- actually simply token (out of the players' gratitude) -- ad hoc "color" commentator. *_Genuinely overflowing with excitement, he nervously conflated pros' names on- and off-camera (ex: Jose for Efren, etc. when speaking to, or about, them -- as any overexcited hobby-level player -- dazzled up-close by the pros' sheer talent -- might do *_** *We respectfully always cut him plenty of slack for occasional "name" lapses because did so much for the pro players who were thrilled to play at the casinos on early televised pool and happy for a shot at respectable prize money (just as we lifelong fans were at being able to spectate in-person and via the nationwide broadcasts of the closing matches*
Wait, what??? At 1:22:12...why the hell does the ref put the 1 in the pocket???
They have to shoot from the kitchen after the break, so if the lowest number ball is in the kitchen, they dump it. Weird rule.
Ball Behind the line after a scratch shot? they use to spot that ball
When this event was?
'86. That $40,000 prize money would equal $93,000 in today's money.
thanks pal aprox which is the width of the pockets in those events??
Corner pockets averaged 5" at the mouth, 4 and 1/8" at the throat.
Side pockets 4 and 5/8" at the throat. (The word "throat" refers to area of the pocket nearest to the pocket's ball-drop receptacle.)
thanks a lot pal
That HUGE "Resorts" logo on the table is extremely distracting. Was that there during the actual game, or, is it just there on this video? There's no way I would play such an important match with something like that on the table. It would be like, "Hey! I just covered my pool table with genuine zebra skin. Wanna come over and play for $10,000?"
Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships. The *table* seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Had you personally possessed the skill to reach one of the closing matches, your refusing to play on such a table would have been of little interest to the casino or the pro tour. Another pro would have taken your place happily, and you'd be given a free seat in the audience (and would almost certainly be excluded from future pro tour events). Not a good career move I think you'd agree. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Helpful intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
ray carlton ● OK. Thanks. Nowadays, they simply "project" images onto the table top, via video equipment. Sort of like watching the football games on TV, and seeing the "10-yard gain" image. The TV viewers can see it, but, the players can't.
i played on that table. it was very slow and i lost the 1 ball on one shot.
Edward Hartgrove I'd say u wouldn't turn it down if offered 40k back then. I had a tigerskin table in 70s. Lol.
you a funny man.
Jeez this table is slow af :D
AMG: If you're open to a few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). *These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts.* Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
@@raycarltonbilliards5798 thank you very much
Foul or no foul? If all ball fouls then yes. I couldn't see it move maybe maybe wiggle
I think that table a lot slower than now days
+caleb woods It is probably because Simonis was not available.
@@fastballonly I love simonis it is like makes pool so much funner to play.
@@debussychopin2766 Yes, Simonis allows the balls to roll on the true path.
All the balls benign except the 9 ball.
Sigel in his prime was the best ever!!!
Definitely true, Nick. Can't argue with Mike's *never-equaled* record of 120 *major* tournament wins.
Not even close
That some drama come on Nick varner
Amazing to see any 86' videos without efren haha, that was the year!
Wyatt - It was indeed a great pool year in all respects.!
Efren didnt make it to too many finals when Sigel ruled. Look how hard these guys have to hit every shot. Anyone who doesn’t see that these conditions were tougher has no idea how much harder it was to play. Mike won 7 professional tournaments that year.
Slow table
Slow indeed, and there are a few facts behind the cloth they used in this tournament Luis, that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships. The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with an *extremely* slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of *poker* table fabric -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Helpful intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history.
Nandyan na ni bata
efren is obviously the best ever to play, but you hafta say people like sigel and strickland are a close 2nd as far as 9 ball was concerned!
All three men are BCA Hall of Fame inductees. World-class players obviously, with more than 270 major tournament wins collectively, in a variety of pool disciplines.
Buddy hall also
Super pool players but the table is too slow
Tuis: If you're open to a few facts behind the cloth and that table-center logo they used in this tournament that you and others might like to hear about. Logos of various casinos were seen during several major tournaments' semis and finals in the mid-1980s for the obvious reason that the casinos were thankfully experimenting with sponsoring and heavily promoting pro pool for the first time (to the delight of pool fans and all professional players). These occasional logos in the finals were very briefly a condition of a few pro tour-casino contractual relationships . The table seen in these three video-ed matches was fitted with *_an extremely slow rug-like cloth from that particular casino's large supply of poker table fabric_* -- thus the visible power-stroking of most shots, and thus the conspicuous publicity logo. *Lifelong fans of pro pool appreciate all efforts made by promoters and sponsors throughout the four or five recent decades of our beloved sport, and especially the absorbing (and instructive)films, videos and pro tournaments that resulted from their efforts. Just my helpfully intended oldtimer's insight into some of televised-pool's history* .