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- Опубликовано: 6 май 2016
- Dave gives a first impressions review of the 350MHz National Instruments VirtualBench combined 4 channel oscilloscope, logic analyser, arbitrary waveform generator, 5.5 digit multimeter, digital I/O, and power supply.
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You just know that on Monday, someone at NI will be tasked with sitting down to watch this with the pause button ready, and making list of all your observations, to be fed back to the marketing and engineering departments. Cool!
Great review - totally out of my price league but always great to see this stuff and appreciate the thinking behind these higher-end tools. Thanks Dave and NI!!
The real problem is when they don't do that. Client feedback is very important in quality control!
It's 4:47 am, but it's never to late to learn! Thanks for the video!!
The problem with locking USB cables, is that if someone pulls it by accident, the whole shooting match goes flying. Can't say I have ever had a USB B casually fall out in normal use.
+Zadster I have had the USB B fall out, several times. In classroom labs in fact.
+Zadster Agreed!. That's precisely why the USB spec has ditched the screw-locking stuff
+krypton2k Yep, but that would happen to virtually any usb device, right?
Clovis Fritzen yes it would, but reduced motion decreases deterioration of sockets and the resulting attenuation and noise from chip creep.
Type B is very solid in my opinion. mini b and micro b not so much, but normal B seems solid. And type A of course as well.
@7:50 - I'd rather the USB cable get pulled out than pull the $6K test equipment down on the floor.
From an *educational standpoint* (I've been teaching electronics to students at uni and for the courses it had been decided to use NI Elvis and myDAQ, which you could see as the low end version of the workbench):
It is an *advantage* that all the hardware can controlled by the software, so it makes some tasks, like bode plots or tracing component characteristics, very easy. Now that you mention it in the video, these "low end platforms" had software for bode plots and 2/3 wire measurements for components! It's weird that with a platform priced that high they did not implement something like that and loses thereby all advantage it had over dedicated devices.
The *disadvantages* IMHO *outweighed* it. I don't really know why, but the knowledge of how to use the tools in software did not transfer over to use the real tools. Give the students a real scope or DMM and they were stuck (to mention the "low end platform" again: at least the software UI looked a little like real scopes/DMMs, and even there it was hard to go from "virtual" to "real"). There's also the quirky issues that sometimes the software has bugs and certain settings give wrong readings. And there's the annyoing issues with hardware not being recognized by the PC, sometimes licencing issues, driver issues after the IT department updated the PCs aso.
The other issues (which as you stated would never make a professional buy aa virtual workbench as daily tool): a "normal" lab power supply and a good DMM can easily be had for less than $1k and are useable for a decade and much more. *What happens when NI decides to stop supporting the workbench with its software?* A perfectly fine PSU and DMM hardware, but no way to use it...
That leaves you with $5000 to spare, which will get you an equivalent brand MSO+fgen from Keysight/Tektronix (and I would even consider Rigol). Again, a scope will work decades, if treated well, and no missing driver/OS support will suddenly make it an expensive brick. So I would never recommend the workbench over dedicated tools.
+superdau
They should have just put a dedicated computer inside it, say a RPi compute module or similar. Just plug in a keyboard, mouse and monitor and your go.
+Jack Evans
Or even a optional regular scope front end.
Most of the issues with this seem to be with implementing the control software.
We used these in school. The main advantage of the software is allowing for easy screenshots of the scope/analyzer data, so I could quickly assemble a graphical collection of data.
In our lower division classes, we used simpler tools, so we graphed and tabulated everything by hand.
Nowadays, I would like a decent oscilloscope and function generator for my own usage, but I make do with a leftover educational tool with a software interface - the Analog Discovery 2.
Cool! An NI Virtual Bench. I didn't get to use one of these while I was working research but I did do a bit of LabView programming. Once you get the hang of the GUI in LabView it is really easy to make any slick looking virtual instrument or control panel that you want. It's free to try and cheap for students.
Thanks for the review.
For the price, NI could have gotten high end Noctua fan in there and it would have been whisper quiet.
better yet a "be quite!" fan, they almost have negative decibeles (well, thats an iver exaggeration if you haven't figured but they're quite)
+Anas Malas BeQuiet! doesn't supply or manufacture industrial fans. Papst has been the choice for manufacturers when they need long life time and reliability, but Noctua does have their industrial fan line that are meant for difficult enviroments and they know how to make a quiet fan.
Papst doesn't worry about noise but reliability. :)
Mtaalas which makes me wonder, what makes a fan industrial? Ive seen BeQuite! Used in 4000$ rigs!!
+Anas Malas If you can put the fan under water and it still works for thousands of hours... it's industrial. :D
+Mtaalas The Noctua stuff is all consumer grade hardware. NI should have used an EBM Papst fan in this unit.
Nice review Dave. I agree that is nice and fairly well done as I would have expected from NI. Lots of missing features that would be pretty easy for them to implement if they decide to. Another simple missing feature that may require hw changes is separate output enables for each power supply. It would be interesting to see an NI demo or an explanation from a designer on some of the decisions made.
That manfrotto's doing its job. Clean tilt when the fan turned on. :)
Hey Dave, a thought on the constant power load you applied. For a programmable load that looks like constant power, with the programmable supply turned off, as soon as you enable the programmable supply and it ramps above the minimum compliance of your load, the programmable load will draw an excess of the programmed current limit while the supply ramps. This will push the supply into constant current and never give it the opportunity to ramp. If you power into CR?
Data acquisition and signal processing is handled by LabView. Honestly, give it a quick try.
I suppose that this little spike in the I2C-signal (34th minute) is an acknowledgment-bit which the receiver sends back to the transmitter after every 8 bits of data.
I don't know enough about scopes and whatnot, but I do not believe I'd want something without a physical screen built-in.
+Cody Yes, that's a common and reasonable opinion. USB scopes are generally terrible, and having lots of knobs to turn rather than clicking buttons is definitely preferable. However, sometimes it is nice to be able to collect data and analyse it more deeply right there on the computer (although the NI software fails to really deliver on this aspect).
Just commenting to support Dave's awesomeness!!!
question for all, do they make hybrid binding posts? meaning "binding post/ dmm jack"? I am planning on performing a complete lab hardware upgrade. thanks All.
Hey Dave, would it be possible for you to do a short video on proper line, and resistor terminations for some different applications?
Thanks for all of your dedication, and excellent videos!
Can I ask if I am starting out with oscilloscopes at home should I get a bench oscilloscope like a rigol 1054z or something like an analogue discovery 2? The price with the accessories either way is pretty similar and I can hack the 1054 to 100mhz so it would be comparable.
The list price on these aren't the actual price universities buy them for. Most research universities (at least in America) buy these in quantities of anywhere from 10 to a couple of hundred at steep discounts (anywhere from 50% to 75% off). There's a reason why NI is the standard when it comes to university lab and learning equipment despite cheaper and more "feature rich" competitors: when it comes to ease of use, product service/repair, software integration, and flexibility, no one beats them. And you have to remember, a lot of the people using these aren't EE or CompE majors. These are often used in physics or chemistry labs by people who dont know a single thing about electronics and want nothing more than something that "just works".
Dave, what is the ruler button in the left bottom corner? It is scales there?
Most certainly ^^
+ProTipsTV Maybe it controls some automated measurements like Vpp, frequency, rise/fall times and stuff.
Nice review!
By the way, does anyone know where i can get one of these NI screwdriver, the seems extremely handy to have in the pocket for on-the-spot work!
I'm trying to find that BNC to Scope adapter but can't seem to find one in Amazon... What search criteria would you use to find it?
It's great that it has a built-in disc image that includes all the needed drivers and software to run right out of the box, but I'd still hit the manufacturer's website to see if there are any updates. Dave asks how features might be added to the FPGA. That's exactly how. Plus, who knows, some of the missing features might be in the latest version of the interface software.
Thank you
Is the USB protocol or whatever network protocol it uses open at all?
National Instruments acquired Digilent a few years ago, it's strange they haven't implemented the same nice set of software features you get with the Analog Discovery.
+Alfred Stampe I agree. My Analog Discovery 2 has a better arbitrary function generator. It comes with a pile of preset waveforms to choose from. I prefer the Waveforms software to that stuff.
"The fan sounds a bit whiny, that's annoying," says the world's whiniest Australian.
(kidding... love your work Dave)
+BilbyBaggins If you listen closely to the fan on that NI unit as it spins up, you can hear it reviewing all the other less expensive test equipment in the room, whining about the inferior build quality. :D
You can probably move the scope panel with the angled arrows below the file dropdown menu
I wanted to see the ARB. My impression is the price is a smidge high for what you get unless NI is committed to providing periodic software updates to add the missing features.
Does the new firmware version solve some of these issues? One benefit of having a software-based user interface is that as long as the HW supports the functionality, the SW can continuously grow and develop.
So, what should be my first scope?
So basically, the same as almost every time a hardware manufacturer makes some kit and bundles software with it. Good hardware, terrible software.
These days I tend not to bother with such devices. I get hardware that I know will work nicely with open-source software (e.g. sigrok). It would be nice to see more hardware companies realising this, and actively soliciting the opensource programmer-types to help cooperate on a project like that.
+Paul „LeoNerd“ Evans the "cool"thing about this hardware/software combinations is...when you updated your PC let say 2-4 times....you can be sure that the old provided software will not work or even run anymore...so you´re stuck with a 6k block lying dead on your bench.
If you could rearrange and resize panels this would be a really nice tool for doing troubleshooting videos where you can capture and overlay as you want.
Can someone explaine me why there is a "phosphate intensity control" on a virtual oscilloscope? Isn't that a thing of old green screens of old school scopes?.
You make great vids
Update your software in the VB! There have been some great features added to the 2-channel version! I have to assume the same with yours.
I spoke with one of the NI product managers about this product a number of months ago, she he had reached out to me seeking feedback. I had suggested some UI considerations and most importantly a USB control surface that has various knobs, buttons, and direct entry like a traditional scope to avoid using a mouse for everything. Not sure if any of those are going anywhere, but it is critical IMHO.
There's an firmware-update option in the File-menu, maybe they have added functionality?
Dave, you mention "USB 'Scope" several times. Would connecting via Ethernet improve certain functions?
nice review, but I couldn't understand Dave's enthusiasm for NI from the start. OK, the instrument appears to be quite solid in its construction, but I still believe that decent real instruments are much more suitable for education. And for this amount of money you get a decent set of scope, power supply, function gen and multimeter.
For reference, similar spec'd 4 channel, 350MHZ MSOs are in the ~12K price range without power supply, DMM or DIO. He keeps saying its an educational product, but it is not, its an industry targeted product which also fits into academia.Its a quarter of the size, and under half the price of typical instruments, with virtually all of the same functions. There is also a 100Mhz version for 2000, which is a more appropriate for academic. And faceless instruments are the future :)
is not any Opensource CRO and Frequency Generator that might be able to use the hardware that you are using, maybe you have to use a Pro_Key as you might only have been given the Trial_Key, is there a Key_Generator in order to unlock everything.
The trouble with having the software built in as a virtual CDROM is that it becomes useless when they release an update of the software. Unless they have something which updates the virtual CDROM image as well. I've got a few things like that which don't and the original out of date image is there every time you insert the device (but I have disabled that in the OS so it doesn't appear).
+Dave Curran
I would expect that the CD image could be updated, probably firmware updates would have a new image.
Being able to run the software from the CD image like that is actually not a bad idea, as it means you don't have to prepare the machine before using it, for example, students can use their own machines without you having to spend the first lesson getting stuff downloaded and installed.
This could also have the advantage of it being more easy to ensure that a uniform version of the software and firmware is run and schedule updates, so you don't have to deal with differences between versions or updates disrupting the lessons.
It would be annoying having to spend class time hunting up the correct version because a student got a new machine and the older version of the software your lessons are planned around is not available anymore(sure, you have the installer on a USB stick, but where was it you put that thing?...)
+Ts6451 As long as the kit can be updated it's a good system. But as I say I've got various things here (admittedly not quite in the same price range) where the CD image is out of date and annoying.
You guys ought to see what auto mechanics have to shell out for a DSO/OBD2 combo. 10,000 USD plus 108 USD a month for a software update subscription.
one thing that bugs me about this thing is the lack of a screen, or any buttons. how do you know what ip address it'll use when you plug it in for the first time, and how do you change it remotely?
+omfgbunder2008 I'd assume that you have to connect to it via USB first, then you can setup wireless and/or wired ethernet settings.
A bit like demonstrating a brand new Tesla (with self-driving capabilities) without showing that it can drive by it self=) If you buy something like this product, you ALWAYS have LabVIEW or Teststand that will do their thing. You basically have full control over everything inside and can draw your programs. And that is the real advantage, besides that you get many good instruments in a bundle. Besides that a good review!
Great video, Dave! But for a 6k thing, i really do expect that it would have all these things you talk about already builtin...not just that basic stuff...
This one remebers me a whole lot of that redPitaya thing....great hardware...but crappy software....
That locking USB cable just means the device will get yanked off a table. When it says that it's searching Windows update for drivers you can press the "skip searching Windows Update" and it will revert to the driver provided by the device if one is there. I don't know what causes it to search Windows Update even when you have the driver, I've had it happen with plenty of devices. Check the instructions on what to do though, Microsoft sometimes has the newest drivers from the manufacturer and that might be expected for this device. With it showing up as a CD drive HP printers with drivers in them do the same thing, must be a Windows thing.
are the missing functions projects for the classroom maybe? like deliberately left out?
Does it work with LabVIEW? maybe you can program digital I/o in LabVIEW
Yes.
That small Pulse you see at 32:00 is the I2C "ACK"-Bit. The Master let's the Data line pull high again, if any Slave accepts the adress or data that has been transmitted via the data line, the slave will pull the line low. This accepting of Data takes time. That's why you've always got this spike after 8 Bits of data.
I know it's not a fair comparison, but i believe the Digilent Analog Discovery is a better package if you look at features and cost. This NI product seems to have too many odd quirks.
Do you know if this unit will work with LabView?
Yes
I'm still mystified about those LEDs behind the company logo on the left.
Neutrik NAUSB and mating NKUSB connectors are even nicer than that custom USB B cable with the screw lock.
+Greg Robinson Interesting connector, it's like a USB connector within an XLR connector latching shroud
Gernan Probe datasheet. Nice.
Thanks Dave. Yes it is disappointing, I was hoping the software had moved on since it first came out.
An important point for this device is you can programming this to make automated test
The hobbyist version is called the SJ Electronics MK IV.
Nice box.
Also: Windows 7! Nice.
It's all software tho, with all that hardware and a few updates they can always improve the product
Most of the functionality happens on the hardware and the GUI is just being updated. But as Dave said, you can easily write your own software to add the functionality (including programming the FPGA). However, I do agree with you in the sense that it should have the functionality out of the box
+charles beauville why everyone says "updates"..if i buy a TV i expect it to be fully functional with no updates....the same goes for things like this..."Outa Box"....it´s 6k....plug..ready...run...!
Couldn't they lower the price from $6000, to around $1000-1500? that would make it a little more reasonable.
Check the teardown, one of the FPGAs alone costs near 500$
+Razor2048 I suspect that the cost of the main FPGA and the two ADC chips in this unit costs NI over $1000 on their own
+Dreamagine1 And that's just those parts as they are, then you've got to count the support and the tech, then there's the software, etc. The price is reasonable. It does have some missing features tho.
Dave do a DSO138 build and review
At 36:20 - Maybe CLK0 und CLK1 are for the Analog Inputs. Just an Idea of a noob.
Does it support mac, it seems like a weird omission to have iOS but no Mac,
Can you use this in LabVIEW ?
Yes, the libraries are all available. You can program the FPGAs like you would with their cRIOs
Wow thats pricey. Im curious, what makes it so expensive. I realize its very capable but does it cost more to manufacture than a less capable model?
+ShopTalk Watch the recommended video on the internals.
Are YOU actually saying the fan is whiney? We kind of call that the pot calling the kettle black here in the States.
But will it survve a drop from that dam
PC and iPad? But no Mac?
maybe they well do a update and add stuff to the software
Is National trying to inspire users to "take it APAHHT"? ;)
For 6 GRAND, a crappy fan?
WHY?
Too bad it's only for Windows too :( It could be a quite a tool with all the simple additions, plus if it worked on other OSes than Windows...
Sagan's Computer on the network?! :P
When I power something that is $6000 on I expect a little more than that wimpy little blue light.
I'm kinda allergic to Windows. Does it show up on Linux? Can we do scpi programming for it?
+Lucas Hartmann
It doesn't have linux software.
+Lucas Hartmann This is another reason why NI has always produced toys.
I don't care for NI software on Linux, all I need is for the device to talk SCPI so I can use it on my programs. This would make a really cool automated test system, but NI has failed me in the past...
+Lucas Hartmann "I'm kinda allergic to Windows." Snobs, *eyeroll*.
our computers in our computer lab are windows 98 rated with slow windows xp and loud fans!
+Efthimis kritikos Computer lab at my sixth form has two storeys and about 40 Intel i7 AIO PCs. It's sad that some places have real shit computers.
$6000? Yea. Dave didn't buy it. On loan for sure! ;) It is nice - and thanks for the review.
+GeorgeGraves is there a Key_Generator package to generate a key to unlock everything or do you have to pay to get the Pro_Key to unlock the whole package.
ni stuff is sold into education at steep discounts. 50% maybe even more.
First 17 seconds I thought about buying it, but waaaaa it's to expensive only to play with it at home. ;-)
Why would you not want NI to collect non personal data? I would think engineers would be all over getting data about how their product is being used. I generally click yes. Its not like I dont use google or facebook afterall...
Dave, why no firmware upgrade? :(
shouldn't that be the first thing to do?
+Guillermo Lovato Same thing i thought........
+Guillermo Lovato How many schools do you think actually do firmware updates? They're almost guaranteed to use these out of the box as is.
+Zzyzx Wolfe Well, I as a student would make sure it was up to date if I used it :)
Zzyzx Wolfe ANY absurdely rich school that can afford this will have competent people that will take care of keeping this updated.
Our school's entire lab for 45 students probably costed the same as one of this things
Albin Ekblom You as a student would be responsible for the 6000$ instrument if the firmware changeover was detected, and put under watchful observation on suspicion of tampering with school property whenever your name hit an attendance record for any class. Schools don’t like inconsistent-operation observed between their lab instruments.
Dear comments section,
Should I do electronics for my GCSEs?
Nah... another commercial advert :-(
What about uSupply and other projects?
Maybe with other NI softwares can do some deep stuffs... But yes, 6K for this...... I don't get it.
NI makes better stuff like cRIO (with real time controller and FPGA ) with huge assortment of modules (24 bit ADCs, bridge input for strain gauge measurements and more...). This is just an 8-bit MDO with 300 MHz bandwidth, weak power supply (1 amp and only +-25V) and some DIO.
"They got 90% with the user interface and then gave up"
- Story of my live (as a software developer)
No OSX? I don't have a mac, but..... COME ON! It's so easy to port software over to OSX!
+StarTrek123456 Agreed. OS X is my preferred OS, and it is NOT hard to port software, especially since Apple has been using Intel hardware for the last decade... but also, no Android?!? Come on!
For the price of that thing, you can have a real workbench, which is better for both trained persons and students.
the 100 MHz is starting at 2000 dollars. wth.
Dave you didn't test performance of the PSU. How is the noise? How is the switch on and off behavior? Or pulse loads?
A quality piece of kit, but the question I would ask is, if a student is trained using this, will they be able to operate a conventional 'scope afterwards? A really BIG mistake many trainers make, is to buy equipment that 'looks ideal for training purposes' but which is never used in industry. The poor student thinks they've learned the subject well, but on the first job interview they are faced with a 'scope having a conventional set of knobs and are completely foxed by it. The interviewer sees this, and well... Fail.
Basically I could train a guy with a 40yo CRT scope, and he'd soon pick up how to use the latest Keysight or Rigol, the control functions being similar enough despite the huge technology gap between them. With this... No, because it's so unconventional.
Wohoo
If this is for classroom use, the display is not well designed. White text on grey with small fonts is not going to show up well on a projector. For anyone with a visual impairment, this is going to be hell.
I am not very impressed, especially with that price. The software seems really basic and is not cross platform (I wouldn't use it if someone gave me one for free without Linux support).
It should have had something better than an 8 bit converter for $6K and a thunderbolt port to stream all that data to the pc in real time.
Are you a professor?
oy mate
Bugger Alert, Bomb’s not really your uncle.
lol full classroom,$ 6k a piece?
First. nice Review.
And Teardown.
+Florian Daßler You haven't even watched it yet!
Im at 10 minutes.
+Florian Daßler Yes, off course you are 10 minutes in 12 minutes after your post... d'oh!
+Wouter Weggelaar 100x Speed?
06:06 That whiney sound was your voice. 😝
+Mac Donalds wow, destroyed