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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- A look inside the Rigol DSG815 1.5GHz RF Signal Generator
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Really liked how this machine was engineered. The front panel pop-off was really nice.
Rigol has really come a long way and they've seriously upped their game in regards to the hardware and engineering.
We'll see if their prices will increase in the same way or will they always give incredible value for money.
Dave: Not everything with 8051 on it is a microcontroller. This one is an Ethernet PHY from Micrel.
Did not even get to Minute 10 and my hat is already off to Rigol! Very, very nice construction.
Glad to see the video is back up
Nice one Dave. 19:50 Thank You very very much for covering this topic.
I love the sound during the time lapses.
In the "80s we had a digital video effects processor for broadcast TV which took up a whole rack. One type of board had the tops of the chips sanded with a belt sander after assembly. Fortunately, they missed a lot of chips and our guys were able to compare several boards to reverse engineer it. Not to copy it, just to understand it and fix it. When they went to a week-long maintenance training course, to the instructors horror, my colleagues handed out block diagrams to the other students.
Actually a teardown of the front panel would be interesting to see how those buttons work - i have never seen buttons like those before.
Dave Jones...........- I'm not in the modern electronics industry, my work experience was in the "old" days. But, I am fascinated and amazed by the incredible complexity of not only the circuitry inside these sophisticated products (such as the one in this video), but also the incredible precision manufacturing processes involved.-- You've been along for the ride in the industry for more than 20 years, so seeing the State of the Art is not as shocking to you as it is to me.- But by my reckoning, a product like this represents a level of genius.-I'm a little surprised, and actually a little dissappointed that you don't express a more WOW feeling when you look at a board like this (the big one). It just feels like we "should" be more in awe of the people who can design and manufacture this stuff. In my day a resistor was a cylinder with two wires an inch long, not some little speck of dust that seems to stick to the main board by magic, and so small you can hardly get a pair of needle tip probes on it.I would be fascinated if you could take a guess as to how many engineers would work on a product like this, in total. There are so many disciplines. RF, Analog, Board layout, Manufacturing and Production, Test, R+D, and just the basic circuit designers themselves. And that doesn't even get into the purchasing people, the various Quality Assurance people, and all the assemblers.I guess that there is CAD/CAM and Circuit Simulation software and PCB design software that might make it to be not as big a deal to build something like this as I think it is, but still..........-Somebody had to design and build THAT stuff. I remember seeing what you call a "pick and place" machine around the early 1980's, (we called them "board stuffing machines" back then). It flew so fast you couldn't see the parts being placed, it was just a big blur (and very noisy). I can't imagnien what it would be like now.I also saw a flow solder machine around the same time frame, but it processed through hole boards with discrete individual components, which were held to the board primarily through gravity, as the board moved throught the flow solder machine. On some components, there might be a slight amount of tension on some of the leads to help hold the components in place, but mostly they just "laid there", until the solder cooled and set up.Carry On.
+douglas „The flame is dead“ lee Believe me, Dave was pretty WOW in this video. He usually finds a lot of stuff to pick on, but with this device the only thing he found basically were the capacitors and the angled buttons, which is pretty much as high praise as you can get :)
+douglas “The flame is dead” lee Sorry, but I did spend a good part of my career designing and laying out boards of this complexity and more. So please forgive my lack of "wow" sometimes for a complex 10 layer impedance controlled board.
I'm always in awe of RF design though, as that was never my field.
+sanjuuyonsai Thank You
+EEVblog Thank You
I don't even understand half the things you say but the video is so entertaining! And you seem so excited with it, which makes it even more fun to watch! Good job.
That front panel removal is VERY well engineered.
+doggie015 I am legitimately amazed that that didn't instantly become an industry standard...
When he asked "If you don't know the difference", I was expecting an insult.
The triangle marks next to those holes are there to tell you that a longer screw needs to go in to that hole. Makes it easier to assemble since you don't have to know what screw goes where. If there are 3 kinds of screws they sometimes mark it 1 2 3 or A B C.
Hi Dave, can't you do a fundamental Friday about decibel? I have tried to understand all the different kinds of decibel but I just don't get it.
Great show, let me know if you want some STBs designed in Sweden for some teardown Tuesday. I have loads of them at work.
+Daniel Gustafsson Here you go: ruclips.net/video/mLMfUi2yVu8/видео.html
"Half a bees dick!" I love that and I cannot wait to use that in a sentence. Its so much less vulgar than the American equivalent that I currently use! haha
The hinged keys are reminiscent of an old HP calculator like an HP 25, HP 67, or HP 41.
Hi Dave. I love watching your teardown videos, my electronics knowledge is fairly basic and so I only really understand about 15-25% of the stuff you describe on these circuit boards. I would love it if you could produce a kind of beginners videos on all this stuff, explaining what you are looking for when you open up a device like this and how you identify key areas on the circuit boards and maybe even a description of what key chips do (in layman's terms). Even so I always learn something new each time I watch a video of yours so will continue to do so. Thanks!
This looks like machines die-cast alu. The thing first get's die-cast (for the ribs, they are pretty die-cast-ish looking= and the other side get's machines for a smooth surface (good contact to these ground strips/borders) and pockets etc.
Wow, such a beautiful piece of equipment! I don't need it, but it looks so good inside I really want it!
BLOODY RIPPA
+TheLawnWanderer you blahdy beauty
THAT'S A BOBBY DAZZLER
Bonzer!
And bob's your uncle
You guys are in like Flynn.
Thanks for the tear-down, I've been considering purchasing one of these for my bench. Think you may have pushed me over the edge, just waiting for the Dayton Hamfest and a deal on it.
That alluminium ribbed cover is not machined it is 100% diecast. when you turned it over all the round spots is where it pushes it out of the diecast mold .
26:53 KSZ8051RNL is 10Base-T/100Base-TX Ethernet physical layer transceiver ! LoL.
+nRADRUS Wow, really, I got duped by that one!
+EEVblog were is the nichic con caps ?
the debug is right there. the J103. It's a serial wire or SWD pretty common these days.
The tilting push button thing might work well for a meter that's setup on a tilting bail, less prone to pushing it over on a key press.
That case looks cast, heat treated, then lightly machined/ground
"rubber baby buggie bumpers". Say that 5 times really fast.
I still prefer my old rack mount Racal RF generator and the matching Racal two-tone generator. I have a Cushman two-tone generator, also, but prefer the Racal hands down. They are big and heavy, but they have given me years and years of great service. Plus, they're much easier to service, since I purchased a ton of spare parts, though they're collecting dust.
I use an older rack mount HP frequency counter, up to 1.6 GhZ, hooked to a Motorola GPS freq. standard, as I don't use the HP crystal oven. I can also use the standard on my Racal generator, too. I am still old school yet.
My next purchase! May be even purchase two!
I bet the laser marking removal cost more than the savings from using those crappy caps in the power supply.
I waited for you to comment the keys on the very left. Like "What the?". Some designer really must have had an design-gasm putting these skewed descriptions on the buttons... :D
I suspect the lasered-off devices will be Hittite (now owned by Analog devices) RF switches and gain blocks.
+Zadster Likely, they turn up a lot in this stuff.
I can't believe no one else commented on this but Dave where's the "Welcome to everyone's favorite segment"?
I had to watch just for the nice internal modulation especially when you pulled the front panel. I have no intrest in the main board yet I watched it because you made if three quarters interesting'
Hm, looking at how U801 is connected via some cap and then through R650 (probably to seperate during testing phase) and then further to the next section I would suspect it being something that oscillates
you can see a droplet of saliva appearing at 25:49 on the coin cell (giggle) just after Dave mentioning how contamination could effect the boards performance...
that's a beautiful machine! Brings a happy tear to the eyes! :'D
little qfn package on main processor board is KSZ8051RNL Ethernet PHY
Best front cover ever!
The only drawback I see with Rigol are their crazy front panel designs, like the "push to side" buttons here. Or Dave's Rigol power supply with that weird circular number pad... What is their designer smoking? Lucky me that he was on vacation when they designed my 1102E. Or is it some kind of Feng Shui?
I like your videos, I have no idea what you are on about though just find them very entertaining.
I don't see any solder thieving pads on the QFPs or red glue on any of the smaller components on either side of the board. Are both sides reflow soldered? how would they manage that - a custom molded carrier to support the bottom side components perhaps?
The heated portion of the board is probably the amplitude reference (just before step attenuation, etc.) Also, the long boot time is the warmup/stabilizing period. I've seen worse!
My HP8648 takes about the same time to boot.
RF analog awesomeness aww yesss
When I saw the thumb of this video, I thought this is an strategy game! :D
I am suprised to see two fpgas in this. Why do they need two ?
Dave, what happened to all those teardown tuesday things you get in the mailbag? You almost never do those!
I have a silly question, why bother with a lithium button cell to retain custom data ? Why not use flash memory ?
I don't know who so many people (even really high-end manufacturers) like Delta fans so much, when equivalent Nidec or Sanyo Denki fans will be quieter for the same amount of airflow.
is the "other bigger teardown" the one of the ultrasonic machine?
Maybe, but I'm just hoping it's one of those self driving cars :)
Hi Dave
Can you please tear down Rigol DS1054
I have already bought one because of you, but I want to know what is inside
Moreover, I want to know does it have protection system from high currents ?
@28:03 lol "stoped" :D
So what's it used for anyway? You use it to test reception on cell phones or something?
I was waiting for RF magic stuff ))))
I loled when I saw the Capxon caps. I'm thinking to myself "ohhh I know he'll say something about THAT". Does make you wonder though why they use a low end part in such a high end device, it's not like going with a higher end brand is THAT much more money. Maybe they just figured due to the general low power requirements and the fact that it's not something that will be on 24/7 it does not really matter?
Why do these expensive instruments all have those soft squishy buttons? Why not the hard clicky ones?
they hide labels from chips to get around the patents
+Andrew Bond How that stops someone from being sued ?
+Andrew Bond they hide it because dave "caught them with their pants down" on the rigol oscilloscope :)
+ElectronicMarine what did Rigol do?
+ElectronicMarine Wow, that was a long time ago now! Yep, they certainly improved after that video.
+VEC7ORlt For patent holder it will be real pain in the ass to prove that these are exactly the same components that were in the patent description. Something like serious reverse engineering or checking the inside of chip with electronic microscope would be required by court. If big manufacturer knows, that patent holder is a really small fish, and doesn't have technical capability to dig the issue, he will go straight to copy without any hesitation. Also, in China: no labels - no case.
For playing around can you make music with it?
Rigol has really stepped up their quality, but it's a shame about all the etched-off part numbers and lack of documentation. These things won't be serviceable at all 10-20 years down the road.
hahaha great review as always, interesting and keeps me chuckling with your little comments like "half a bee's dick!" :)
"I'll just crowdsource that!" :)
What is so special about the RF connector? Is it bigger (for lower impedance)? Or better shielding?
+TheTrueM3ga I'd guess it's just an established standard, many analogue and digital oscilloscopes use the same connectors too whether push in or screw in.
+TheTrueM3ga keep in mind how much power can go over such an RF connector.
+TheTrueM3ga The N connector is the industry standard for high frequency RF stuff. BNC's are not as well designed for high frequency.
CrapXon capacitors - responsible for free monitors for all who know to replace them with Panasonic, Nichicon, Rubycon, et al. In fact, the monitor I'm using right now was thrown away when the CapXon capacitors failed.
Dr. Shahriar Shamanian will probably spend some time reverse-engineering the RF in this...
Gotta have your RF voodoo
Non-Auto MDIX ethernet? Is this 1998 or is this a desirable feature?
+Christopher Johnson Also the PHY supports Auto-MDIX! Did they disable it in software? For what benefit?
Did you discharge the big capacitor?
Amazing video, I wish you do more videos about repairing stuff, i enjoy them very much, by the way, i haven't seen any video about repairing pc's motherboards.
+Alfred William Dave has "bad luck" with repair videos. When he buys broken test equipment from eBay, they either power on just fine or (more rarely) a blown beyond economical repair.
hhhhh, actually it doesn't matter, whether the stuff get repaired or not, but still, the man teach me a lot of tricks, when he tries.
Alfred William
true - but Dave can´t repair test equipment that is working just fine. Some people put up their stuff on ebay as "defective" just to avoid complaining costumers. If the buyer buys a "defective" scope as part donator, but it is working as is, the buyer usually does not complain. Just our friend Dave here is specifically looking for defective units and gets sad when the device is just fine ;-)
+Alfred William Because I have no interest in repairing PC motherboards.
the repair its self is not that important, but knowing how things works, and testing stuff is interesting
good old RF
Echt ein Rigol? Man mag es nicht glauben, dass dieses Prachtstück von denen sein soll.
What looks like the fuse inside the power supply is soldered, why isn't it socketed, to change it easily ?
+Onel s4 maybe that´s the reason. If the fuse is just the very last line of defence, it is not a bad idea to solder it in, making it harder to replace. For e.g. if a power supply is current limited by design, either the supply has to go overvoltage or both the board and the supply have to be faulty to trigger the fuse. In either case, simply replacing the fuse would not remove the true fault.
+sarowie Thanks for your answer. :)
+Onel s4 Not uncommon. it's for gross failures only. If it pops then something else is horribly wrong.
+EEVblog Definitely. And if the user isn't competent enough to replace a soldered-in fuse, then you definitely don't want them able to just pop a new one it after a major failure.
One of those button has the CBS logo on it. Do you see it?
Eye see everything.
+Pixel First thing I saw.
25:48 dave spit on the CR2032
Cute machine. :)
God! one of these things is something i drool over trying to get into complex RF engineering!
This with that IQ modulation option would be heaven!
But those caps ... really really annoying! A clear failure mode on this product!
I would had probably handled the screws that way anyway, and not used a cordless screwdriver...
what are the yellow things on the board? The ones look like gold plated
Are you inquiring about the tantalum capacitors (which are typically a golden yellow or black two lead SMD chip package) or some other part? If it is the round items near the power input section then those are simply coaxial connectors. But those are the only two golden components I can think of that you may be referring to.
+Ethan Poole No. I am asking about the rectangular looking gold coloured "borders" on the board
+Alperen Akküncü Those are just gold plated contact points dividing all the various RF modules from one another to avoid unwanted RF interference and leakage into or out of each section and its neighbor. The two diecast shielding cans then clamp tightly along all those borders (with conductive gaskets) top and bottom to both complete the RF grounding and to keep all the desirable RF inside and isolated and all the outside RF out. All of those borders and the cans themselves become part of a single low impedance ground plane.
+Ethan Poole thanks !
Smitch mode power supply XD
that's a faaaantastic video you bloody rippaaaa :D
Rigol under evolution :) they at least use the money for developing what we give to them :)))) Nice gear, nice.
Please use electric screw driver :)
"Flappin' around in debris"?
+Michael Kohler Flappin' around in the breeze. You know, the wind is just blowing it around=not fixed
+Krisztián Szirtes Yeah i know but it sounded like debris (= "refuse/rubble") instead of "the breeze"
+Michael Kohler If it was a "Made on chine" product, like all of it being like those caps, it would be correct :D
+Michael Kohler _the breeze_
art
I just realized that you keep saying "roof" rather than "ceiling" because you're on the other side of the world and everything is upside-down there.
50fps video, weird.
Can this do square waves?
Every cool
CapXon crap! :( Dealbreaker to me.
+Indiskret1I accidently read CrapXon cap
122 view yeah
Omg hi-end, not cheap, lab electronics and shitty capxon caps????!!!!
Why???????
We can see nichicon or nippon chemi-con caps in consumer electronics!
weee
MONGRELS!
why offend mongolians its 21 century after all and they have internet too you know 15:42
+Gardner ! I'm not sure if that is a joke or not but nobody mentioned Mongolians. The word is mongrel, you should be complaining to the RSPCA ( is there a ASPCA?).
+Gardner ! Mongrel!
БП полное говно, какого хрена БП говно в приборе за 160т.руб?
+Электроника , 160т.руб - эт малая цена. БП нормальный. что в нём не так ?
+nRADRUS самые плохие электролиты, да еще и вентилятор который пыли насосет((
могли-бы постараться сделать и без принудительного охлаждения!
Электроника
, электролиты - миф и суеверия. есть статистика ? вентилятор возможно и не включается на комнатной, а вот при температуре воздуха 50-60 С может и включается. где факты ?
+nRADRUS какие еще суеверия? 90% неисправностей БП не важно какой топологии происходит из-за отказа конденсаторов! конечно есть статистика, не разу сами БП не чинили с засохшими кондюками? о_О
БП обратноходовый, нагрузка на выходные конденсаторы не большая, а вот на сетевой побольше. При температуре градусов 50 он проработает максимум 6-7тыс часов (это года 3 в режиме 8 часов в день)
Например в осциллографах rigol вентилятор работает всегда (во всяком случае в риголах с которыми я имел дело)
Электроника
, какая нагрузка на сетевые конденсаторы, если мощность устройства жалкая ? =) запас на ёмкость и напряжение выбран огромный, так что возможно всё будет в порядке и большее время. фирма CapXon работает давно, и до 2008г нареканий на неё не было слышно.