The understanding of the relationship between the devotee and the Spiritual Master is of great importance since it is the basis of all spiritual traditions, prophecies and teachings. If people didn't fully study my Teaching on this matter they might tend to associate and even identify it with some of the traditional exercises. . . in such traditions as the Advaitic tradition. And there's a tendency in the Advaitic tradition to develop this kind of "talking school" approach to Realization. And therefore it tends also to legitimize the point of view of certain kinds of advocates who can be read, and even heard in public. Who "preach" to people about consciousness and call them to identify. . . merely to identify with it. They try to talk people into identifying with consciousness, or merely to relax their minds and so forth, and settle into a conscious state, that doesn't have any particular reference to the body-mind, although its still associated with it practically. There are many such advocates. I've spoken about Krishnamurti from time to time, he's just one. There are many such people these days. They all have in common, a call to people to do something like the. . . exercise of logic recommended in the Advaitic "talking school". They call upon them to identify with Consciousness, presently, to believe and affirm that the essence of the being, the consciousness behind thoughts and actions is presently and always already identical to Brahman or the Transcendental Condition. Therefore, merely by involving yourself in this kind of analytical exercise, you can presume that you are enlightened, or that you have achieved Jnana. That's not at all true. The same kinds of advocates are also busy telling people that there is no real purpose for a Spiritual Master, except to bind yourself to another ego and so on. The reason they can so easily dismiss the Spiritual Master is because they have already dismissed the whole process of spiritual practice. And all that's necessary for them is this kind of analytical effort of identifying with Consciousness. It is true that our own consciousness, that which is at the root of attention, is ultimately, even inherently, identical to the Transcendental Being. But this must be Realized to be so. And it cannot be Realized to be so until energy and attention are free for that most profound and Radical Intuition. It's not merely factually so. It's not factually so that Atman and Paramatman or Brahman are identical. It's not factually so that Nirvana and samsara are the same. By definition these are opposites. Nirvana and samsara are actual or absolute opposites of one another. That's how the two terms arose in traditions. They indicate two entirely different states of existence, one Transcendental and the other conditional. Well, in the Buddhist tradition, this formula developed eventually, that the states that are Nirvana and samsara are the same. Well, this is a confession of Adepts. This is a confession of Realization. In the case of Realization it is True. In some profound, paradoxical sense. But it is not factually true. It's true only in the case of Realization. Likewise, in the Advaitic tradition, in many places in the Hindu tradition, we hear the proclamation that Atman and Paramatman, or Atman and Brahman, are identical. This is not factually true in the original development of these terms. They were meant to indicate complete opposites. They are Realized to be identical by Adepts. The equation is Realized to be true, or the Truth in the case of an Adept. But not otherwise. The equation is not factually true, it's only true by virtue of Realization. So you cannot, merely by inverting upon the self-essence, identify with the Transcendental Being. To invert upon the self- - essence is merely to continue the act of Narcissus (the ego act of identification with a separate self). It is to meditate upon the self-essence, the essence of the ego, the root consciousness of the ego. Until the ego is transcended, that's all that's at the base of the "I" thought. We may have some sense, some intuition of that which goes beyond the limit of self-contracted consciousness, but we cannot Realize our identity with it, apart from the fullest development of spiritual practice. In fact, therefore, it is a heresy to claim that Atman and Paramatman are the same, or that Atman and Brahman are the same, until you have Realized it. It is a heresy to declare that Nirvana and samsara are the same. Its a ridiculous claim except in the case of Realization. Spiritual Understanding in our discussion is not to be equated with a kind of "talking school" conceit, or the presumption of the ego, that wants to be realized immediately without having to go through the hard school of purification, liberation, and awakening. Spiritual Understanding involves the transcendence of the ego, or conditional attention and this develops by stages - it has a number of forms. . . The reason for this is that the ego is not merely some superficial notion. The ego applies to every single aspect, every part, function, state, relation, and condition of the self. There is no part of the manifest self that is not characterized by the ego or self-contraction. It's not merely a superficial part of you, underneath which there is this eternally free essence which you should identify with. Even that essence underneath it all, that fundamental sense of self-consciousness is a fraction of this total character that is the ego or seperate self. This total character must be understood and transcended. In every feature, function, part, relation, state - waking, dreaming, and sleeping - this consciousness that is identified with in the "talking school" is nothing but the bare consciousness of the waking state, or attention apart from objects. It is not, in any sense, a practice of enlightenment or enlightened understanding; it is simply egoic consciousness. That egoic consciousness in all of its forms must be transcended for any spiritual understanding to awaken. Avatar Adi Da Samraj What Is The Conscious Process?
Thank you for injecting some Trurh into this tangle of mind that is Ken Wilber and his admirers. It truly is the dark epic if Wilber’s narrative is dominating.
Kai is this what you mean by take your "medicine"? "vande guroh sri-charanaravindam": By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the benediction of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement. Therefore, I should always remember and praise the spiritual master.
This is the clearest and to the point presentation of nirvana, samsara and the nondual state I have ever seen/heard. Personal shadow-work is probably the most unrespected and missing part in most spiritual "stuff". It is so obvious why this ruins otherwise so greatly developed teachers. Great interview
Ken Wilber is an amazingly wise and enlightened person. And, guys, really, thanks a lot for the questions you were asking him! Brilliant questions and brilliant answers. I'm subscribing :)
Adi Da didn’t need to get drunk in order to open up but a number of his devotees did, and that is why alcohol was occasionally used in the early gatherings, to temporarily sensitise his devotees in order that they would be receptive to his spiritual transmission . He was neither a drunk not a womaniser. He had a profound spiritual connection with each of his partners. Surface judgements fall woefully short of the truth.
We don't have to be perfect to call out BS. You're misunderstanding that saying. The way you're using it gives cover and is a version of the defence discussed where any problem we see is only ever our own ego; a sty in our own eye only. The way you're using this biblical phrase is protecting the abuser and dismisses and thus dishonours the real suffering of people who have been at the receiving end, which you apparently have not known, so, it's easy to say. Finally, it's not just about the suffering of victims which you may or may not care about, but there is a principle of truth here, at stake.
If anyone hasn't read ken wilber, just do it, nothing will bring more clarity to every aspect of your life and work than his models And everything that is broke in the world is just missing an integral framework
I’m no follower. I never have been but I take what is offered if it resonates as truth in my own psyche. Ken has some pretty good insights as does other teachers of this era. Discernment is best.
I'm sorry but as much as I love Ken, I've never understood the distinction between waking up and growing up. One might have brief glimpses of awakened consciousness despite being undeveloped in terms of the body-mind. But in order to fully awaken, there can be no complexes left in the body mind. There may be 'gurus', such as Andrew Cohen, who behave in narcissistic ways, but that just shows how much of a fraud they are. And there may be other gurus, such as Adi Da, who are pilloried for certain behaviours that are in fact necessary teaching aids for the devotees present at that time.
_"Sudden awakening, gradual cultivation."_ I believe this has been around in the Zen tradition for a while, and it points to waking up, cleaning up, and growing up.
He brings up the problem in spiritual circles I have been discussing for years. The mystical view must merge with the scientific view so you can apply wisdom while operating in the world accordingly.
Wisdom is not predicated on science. And the problem with (some of) these spiritual circles was not lack of science, but rather, lack of wisdom (prajna), maturity, and morality (sila).
In my experience, meditation have been lead me to whole process of cleaning, transforming and live in no duality step by step. When we reached it we can really understand the four noble trues of budhism, not just know about.
If it works for You, that's great. Usually we get stuck along the way if we are not aware of the simple fact, that there is such a thing as shadow and therefor rationalize, where it should be about accepting and letting go. It's an individual process with no final goal, neither no goal, nor both, nort neither of both... namaste :-)
This old sage is quite right... Here in east in Hindu and Muslim mystic traditions a desiple is traind in unconditonal obedience rather servitude to the Guru Or Murshid. There is saying " A DESCIPLE TO A GURU IS LIKE A UNCONSINCE AND NAKED PATIENT ON A TABLE IN OPERATION THEATER BEFORE HIS DOCTOR"
The chasm between form and emptiness is the cause of deep suffering. What the DSM5 calls "depersonalization" is absolutely an experience of this chasm. The fact that emptiness is not other than form, is the very reason, you can feel separated from it. If they were in truth, not connected, then there would be no way to feel separated. Our mental health authorities often have little insight into spiritual realities, and often are not even aware of their own lack of awareness of their own psyche. This is causing much ignorance to spread on what mental illness may turn out to actually be. We are filtering "sicknesses" of the Soul/Psyche through eyes of materialism. "That which is emptiness is not other than form, and that which is form is not other than emptiness". This is a statement that will stand the test of time. The apostle Paul wrote "we walk inside his being" when speaking of God. The creation is not separate from its creator at the absolute level, but that doesn't change the experience of samsara, the experience of the relative, from not feeling like actual hell at times. Will we find the truth within ourselves, and compassion on others ignorance while this world either transforms, or falls before our eyes? These are not worthless endeavors. Absolute Love still remains after catastrophe, or the apocalypse, wether it be our own personal shattering of identity, or assisting in the healing of other vessels outside ourselves. But this is Gods will that works through us, it is not that the we as separate identities will ourselves to love and truth. Just felt like writing that up. Peace and blessings to all walking the way, even on the days it feels too much to bear, we know we shall overcome.
"emptiness is not other than form" there is no separation the traditional way it is taught in Mahayana Buddhism (more analogous to a wave-particle duality) but for sure anyone could have problems if taken out of context or without the proper education for it. The Tibetan culture does not teach this out of context traditionally. See commentaries on the Heart Sutra by HH Dalai Lama or Thich Naht Hanh.
Anyone who wants to become a guru is not fully enlightened. A deep part of them is still unenlightened which is why they try to seek others to enlighten, since they're a projection of their own enlightened part. A true guru does not seek students, they just naturally gravitate towards them, a la Ramana Maharshi.
@@zootsoot2006 But that ignores the part of the Bodhisattva vow that anyone that is allowed to gain enlightenment is morally obligated to pass on that knowledge to others to let them gain enlightenment also. After all it has always been true that "With Great Power there also must come Great Responsibility" so you might not have to become famous as a Guru but it is not just projection to seek others to enlighten from any skillful means that you can find
@@zootsoot2006 People were having awakening experiences when they were in Adi Da’s company when he was Franklin Jones. He wasn’t seeking students or devotees . They were drawn to him
How does Ken reconcile his years of mutual adoration and support for fallen emotionally crippled Andrew Cohen? They publicly adored each other, sharing the stage and limelight for years as Andrew's megalomania ran amok for decades. They obviously benefited business wise from their association.
david fields, this is an excellent point. I am not aware that Ken has publicly made any statements on the "emotionally crippled Andrew Cohen." Cohen seriously and horribly abused many spiritual seekers who sought spiritual insight and refuge. Given Ken's many years of association with Cohen, it seems reasonable to expect him to have made some kind of statement about this. If anyone knows of anything Ken has said or written in this regard, I would be interested in knowing about it.
So odd that now hearing this validates to myself that infact I have reached the highest state but it happened before any knowledge about these practices and now that I have closure about my awakening I haven't come close to that again.
I wonder whether Alan Watts had a shadow? I love his RUclips talks but I read he had a serious alcohol problem. Watts was asked why he drank so much and he said it was because he hated himself and wanted out. But you will never guess this by listening to his melodic, happy English voice.
It would appear that some of watts shadow elements were appropriating and portraying the role of legitimate “eastern,” spiritual teacher. It hadn’t been done prior to him in the west and so was a blind spot ripe and rife for posing as the master. That one has access, and even an intellectual or inner understanding of truth/information does not make one a qualified and authentic teacher, as we pretty much well know nowadays
From what I can tell there is no person who has woken up or grown up to a stage that isn’t still primarily driven by the shadow. But, say in the case of Ken Wilber and his teachings, there are a few with a more fully developed awareness of the shadow. The need to have “my” answer versus “the” answer to our current psychological and spiritual problems, seems to be the prevalent obstacle. To develop beyond this stage takes individuation. And that means you as an individual have addressed and solved the problem of the shadow to the degree it is not the driver of your reality.
Reminds me of another point Wilber said about doing shadow work to get to the shadow... "The shadow will bite you in the ass when you're not looking. The shadow will also bite you in the ass when you *are* looking, but at least you'll know it's there."
@@fightington just read his rude boys article. I spent a year at the Andrew Cohen community in the 90s when Wilber was a regular contributor to his magazine and they did many talks together. Unfortunately, Andrew's shadow must have completely blindsided Ken, fortunately it didn't blindside me I'm not saying Wilber doesn't have some valuable points.
The " postmodernists", the " green people " would desperately need shadow works . That would possibly really save the world and preserve cultures and natures . There is no contradiction between the two. Greetings to Ken and Wishes for health and a long life. From the middle of my heart. I am drinking Red Bull to you , dear Ken . Not my guru . A friend in the " frosts of freedom ".
Real Spirituality is beyond thinking, maps, modalities, and wokeness. Ken subtly dismisses the deeply powerful teachings of Adi Da and plugs his model as superior. Adi Da is the deepest body of Spiritual Wisdom on the planet. Ken is amazing, and best at Jnana, or the intellectual style of Waking Up to the Self. The Bhakti or surrendered loving devotional element is lacking from this approach. Adi Da combined both, and so was quite worldly and sex-positive. Working at that level is largely experimental, as in a devotional and non-dual sense the right thing at the right time often animated whatever was appropriate, uncensored and ecstatic. His teachings and personality aren't for the faint of heart or spiritual consumers, and the opinions of those folk dont change the magnanimity of the offering. Love.
I believe Wilber held Adi Da in the highest regard at one point, actually putting him as virtually the highest of the highest. But Mr. Da had his share of shadow issues apparently too, right?
@@jr6200 Funny just an hour ago I listened to a thebeezone interview released today with intimate Adi Da devotee Julie Anderson Its somewhat advanced, yet brilliant, and they discuss Wilber's stance on Adi Da. It's on RUclips. Worth a listen. I feel integral is stuck having cancelled its main Guru, so itself is experiencing some pathologies. Wilber prepped me for Adi Da though, so maybe that is his function as an intermediary. He seems to allude to this being his intention mentioning that the deepest would find Da eventually, which was the case for me, because integral leaves one with somewhat of a cultic emptiness and arrogance that Adi Da rebuilds as fullness truly Spiritual. Love.
@@jr6200 P.S. shadow self I feel is a function of the notion of a separate self that is obliterated when awakening fully into and as Love. There is a litany of metaphysical maps that Da left behind in his prolific writings that dwarf Wilber's. It is clear studying those teachings that they are different leagues with an actual spirit current associated with Da. It's a matter of corroboration via investigation rather than immediately canceling over smear notions and psychological fad lingo. I think of shadow work as something done at beginning stages in order to stabilize the ego enough for the process of transcendence to begin. Wilber may disagree in his model, yet all lines still merge in the Heart.
@@jgannon1637 I suppose you don't accept the various reports of Adi Da being abusive, doing lots of drugs, forcing people to have sex with others and with him etc?
@@jr6200 I know there are reports and contexts. I'm not woke. I follow Love, not smears. Not into abuse tho. Tricky because there are boundaries and egos to protect, yet Gurus are tasked with breaking those down to discover the egoless Divine. Tough to say. I see cancel culture as narcissism though, so actually easy for me to dismiss as ego games.
It is amazing how unsophisticated this unenlightened rant is by who used to be one of the greatest spiritual pandits of the late 20th century -- Ken Wilber is distorting history and what Gurus do and what they can offer people just so HIS theories are as seen as the best ever: talk about hidden shadows! And to do this to these inquisitive attentive young adults, who just lap it up with no ability (or knowledge) to contradict or challenge the Almighty Ken Wilber is very sad. Let me say: SOME of what Ken says is true but a WHOLE LOT is wrong, false, and deluding. He distorts history because traditions of the past did in fact know what "Growing Up" and "Cleaning Up" were all about -- they just didn't call it "modern psychology" but the principles were the same: human maturity and healthy compassion and love for other human beings. His debasing of the Guru function and what the Eastern Gurus did in the 1960s and 70s is pathetic -- Ken himself sat at the feet of Zen Masters and Buddhist Rinpoches who SERVED his awakening -- but now he acts, and misleads these young people as if Gurus simply operate from below the navel (sex and self-indulgence) which is ludicrous, misleading, and bad karma. DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS VERSION OF KEN WILBER for he is wrong about so much it's impossible to explain it all -- he will not sit and have open discussions with people who can challenge his views: talk about cultic! And he offers NO TRANSMISSION of the enlightened state nor does he talk about Right Life and real spiritual practice except in the most simple terms -- thus be forwarned: yes, some of Wilber's books and ideas are very useful... but his oversimplification of spirituality to the 4 or 5 "UPs" is childish and adolescent as he fights back against "mommy and daddy" authority figures (aka real Gurus) in order to make his integral way the best ever ("in the history of the world," yes, his words)... and it is not. Real Gurus are to be honored and revered -- sure, learn to tell the authentic ones from the fakes, like duh. Maybe Wilber should try helping people do that! This version of Ken has lost it. Be careful, folks, and this is coming from someone who loves Ken very much and admires much of what he has done... in the past. This talk is mostly garbage.
what shadow do I need to box when I cannot watch this guy on the right with his mouth hanging open? I tried to cover that side of the video with another browser window... yet, then, the guy shows up in the middle part of the video... I need a 2nd tier opinion, please!!!
The problem is also the naive students. I'm not blaming real victims, but y'all need to check out a teacher for a long time before making that commitment.
What actually was the legit, woke, enlightened, teacher-gurus with complicated residual shadow issues vs your run-of-the-mill spiritual-con-artist ratio Ken? Do we have any data on that Ken?
Let’s all do a bit of shadow boxing or eat that shadow. If we don’t transform the pain and the shame we surely will project it on to others. Ken is cool. For me it’s...the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death🙏🌹🥳
Calling the world of form "Samsara" is an insult to the Divine Feminine and the teaching of samsara is rooted in patriarchy, misogyny, and narcissism. Yes, the world is deeply flawed. But that's because the world is being co-created by wounded souls and narcissistic egos. However, you don't forsake, condemn, or seek to escape the world. One must develop an attitude of compassion like a Bodhisattva. Human beings live in this world and without the world, humans cannot survive on this planet, at least most of us cannot survive this conditional existence. Earth is a school. To realize the Oneness and to exclude the Many is an incomplete realization. To realize the Many and not the One is also incomplete. One must bring these opposites together. There is the very real phenomenon of the spiritual bypass and spiritual narcissism. Adi Da is perfect example of an unhealed shadow and partial realization or integration. He arrogated himself to the level of "Avatar" but behaved like a narcissistic demon and hurt many.
Ken points out that far too many leaders are willing to abuse their followers in their lust for money, power, and sex. It's up to followers to say no. This includes to leaders that Ken is even now currently endorsing.
Mr Wilber is undoubtedly a very intelligent being, but is clearly in an advanced state of delusion if he thinks (and he is obviously operating from an intellectual ego-state, complete with "ums" galore) that he actually understands all of the dynamics of the universe and can therefore observe and comment definitely upon the creation it from his oh-so-lofty perch. That said, his observation that most, if not all of the eastern gurus who have flooded the west since the 60s and the newer self-declared western purveyors (for a hefty price) of truth - the SAND folks for exmple - are frauds who, although they may have had awakening experiences, are not nearly as evolved as beings as they claim, is, as he notes, a real problem.
This is a too simplistic explanation and doesn’t address that the vast majority of these trainings, have specific focus on not reacting to physical and mental desires, such as hunger, thirst, lust etc. the whole training of yoga is to train the body and mind is such a way to not attach to desire, removing impurities and ignorance.
He said it succinctly and he said it the best I am the way the truth and the life, find out what that means and you will forget about all the garbage that you hear continually coming out of the brains and mouth that people that are being used by the evil one to confuse you
Sexuality, is the most shadow of all. Everyone self steam depends on it. All men and women value themselves based on their sexual attractiveness. Look to anyone who receive a compliment on their appearance and how they look beautiful? They shine up directly. All spiritual and motivational teachers touch this subject with two hands open. So they match people fears and insecurities about this subject, and more they develop strong attention to whom they seek more pleasurable self fallfilment through it. The human psych is tricky, all I see is how many weak men inters these type of work in addition to yoga teaching just for the female part. For everyone out there, your own spirituality is already in you. Go out there to discover not to learn. Observe and never absorb. You’re not like anyone in this earth neither you will be like anyone. Investigate within when you face an obstacle. Never lie to yourself this is the model. The shadow in the first place is what you have been lying to yourself all along. When you call out your own shit. You reached your truth.
It is still very much happening, and has gotten much worse since 1970. Everybody whos teachings has to do with tantra and/ ore sharmanisme in the New Age Community, is abusing some of the volnerable student in some horrible way ( A World wide example: Tibetan Buddhism). I would know! And how can you separate states of waking up, from shadow work ? what else is there to wake up to ? We are humans living a human existence.
Turned up Side down You can live for years and repress all kinds of uncomfortable stuff, become a seeker, meditate, and have an awakening and boom! Here it is. Now you’ll have to find a way to deal with the pieces. It’s tough but necessary if you want that peace. That’s why so many healers are being created. Clearing the human energy field, or cleaning up as Ken calls it, is required to effectively live as an enlightened person and feel whole, and more importantly joyful.
Turned up Side down I hope what we are waking up to is a happier life. We’re all looking for heaven. Even a drug addict, a money addict or a chocolate addict etc is looking for heaven.
I am 40 years in integral yoga (sri Aurobindo and the mother) , every day efforts, sometimes more, sometimes less. my only Problem seeing myself and also the world: is adwaita Vedanta, Buddha the ultimate truth, or is a big step for us coming now , solution of all, the supramental force working? the supramental truth. now, this is my work to try to be most open. to endure, to stand the confusion. otherwise I don´t Need any Input anymore. no Methods, no readings I just live my cautious life, my vegetarian Food, my rejection for power, my modesty for Money and property, my disciplin in sex-life- ect. all this is not a big Thing. the big Thing for me is not to despise my surroundings. to reject a prioi a contact. like this Young women with some metal in her face - how can she dare to talk to me?
Whoever has any knowledge based on true spiritual traditions of the world knows a simple fact that whatever comes from USA cannot have spiritual value. And this so called philosopher is a great example of this plain fact. Sadly, some spiritual seekers could be exposed to his pseudo intellectual BS and get an impression he knows what he talks about. He has got no clue what GURU is, trying to focus all the attention on himself as someone wise and worth listening to. Do not get fooled by this fake master...
I think by the 80s / 90s most of these as-portrayed-here, bad actors of the 60s / 70s had faded, or maybe were just overtaken by the self-help enthrallment and capitalization that followed. I learned meditation in a serious sangha in the late 80s and were taught butt-wiping in a context of merit badges for levels achieved right at the outset. It was good as cub scouts and some of the same animals were woven into those badges. Lions, Tigers, Garudas. But some of these outfits regressed in the 90s (as women took over, I think) and became obsessed with how well everyone was wiping their asses. Not sure why anyone focused on spiritual rigour would bother to discuss this topic at such length. Paranoia (or an axe to grind) I guess.
Neal Brenard I think he is just talking about basic codes of human conduct - respect - self control - accountability, very important things to not spread ones own neglected garbage onto other vulnerable undeserving beings. The ax was ground by the wrong doers, Ken has the courage here to pick it up and swing it for safety and protection. That’s just my opinion anyhow.
Mr. Wilber I respectfully recommend that you read CS Lewis's book a mind awake before you check out of this world, because you are severely disillusioned,
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The understanding of the relationship between the devotee and the Spiritual Master is of great importance since it is the basis of all spiritual traditions, prophecies and teachings.
If people didn't fully study my Teaching on this matter they might tend to associate and even identify it with some of the traditional exercises. . . in such traditions as the Advaitic tradition. And there's a tendency in the Advaitic tradition to develop this kind of "talking school" approach to Realization. And therefore it tends also to legitimize the point of view of certain kinds of advocates who can be read, and even heard in public. Who "preach" to people about consciousness and call them to identify. . . merely to identify with it. They try to talk people into identifying with consciousness, or merely to relax their minds and so forth, and settle into a conscious state, that doesn't have any particular reference to the body-mind, although its still associated with it practically.
There are many such advocates. I've spoken about Krishnamurti from time to time, he's just one. There are many such people these days. They all have in common, a call to people to do something like the. . . exercise of logic recommended in the Advaitic "talking school". They call upon them to identify with Consciousness, presently, to believe and affirm that the essence of the being, the consciousness behind thoughts and actions is presently and always already identical to Brahman or the Transcendental Condition. Therefore, merely by involving yourself in this kind of analytical exercise, you can presume that you are enlightened, or that you have achieved Jnana. That's not at all true. The same kinds of advocates are also busy telling people that there is no real purpose for a Spiritual Master, except to bind yourself to another ego and so on.
The reason they can so easily dismiss the Spiritual Master is because they have already dismissed the whole process of spiritual practice. And all that's necessary for them is this kind of analytical effort of identifying with Consciousness. It is true that our own consciousness, that which is at the root of attention, is ultimately, even inherently, identical to the Transcendental Being. But this must be Realized to be so. And it cannot be Realized to be so until energy and attention are free for that most profound and Radical Intuition. It's not merely factually so. It's not factually so that Atman and Paramatman or Brahman are identical. It's not factually so that Nirvana and samsara are the same. By definition these are opposites. Nirvana and samsara are actual or absolute opposites of one another. That's how the two terms arose in traditions. They indicate two entirely different states of existence, one Transcendental and the other conditional.
Well, in the Buddhist tradition, this formula developed eventually, that the
states that are Nirvana and samsara are the same. Well, this is a confession of Adepts. This is a confession of Realization. In the case of Realization it is True. In some profound, paradoxical sense. But it is not factually true. It's true only in the case of Realization.
Likewise, in the Advaitic tradition, in many places in the Hindu tradition, we hear the proclamation that Atman and Paramatman, or Atman and Brahman, are identical. This is not factually true in the original development of these terms. They were meant to indicate complete opposites. They are Realized to be identical by Adepts. The equation is Realized to be true, or the Truth in the case of an Adept. But not otherwise. The equation is not factually true, it's only true by virtue of Realization. So you cannot, merely by inverting upon the self-essence, identify with the Transcendental Being. To invert upon the self-
-
essence is merely to continue the act of Narcissus (the ego act of identification with a separate self). It is to meditate upon the self-essence, the essence of the ego, the root consciousness of the ego. Until the ego is transcended, that's all that's at the base of the "I" thought.
We may have some sense, some intuition of that which goes beyond the limit of self-contracted consciousness, but we cannot Realize our identity with it, apart from the fullest development of spiritual practice. In fact, therefore, it is a heresy to claim that Atman and Paramatman are the same, or that Atman and Brahman are the same, until you have Realized it. It is a heresy to declare that Nirvana and samsara are the same. Its a ridiculous claim except in the case of Realization.
Spiritual Understanding in our discussion is not to be equated with a kind of "talking school" conceit, or the presumption of the ego, that wants to be realized immediately without having to go through the hard school of purification, liberation, and awakening. Spiritual Understanding involves the transcendence of the ego, or conditional attention and this develops by stages - it has a number of forms. . .
The reason for this is that the ego is not merely some superficial notion. The ego applies to every single aspect, every part, function, state, relation, and condition of the self. There is no part of the manifest self that is not characterized by the ego or self-contraction. It's not merely a superficial part of you, underneath which there is this eternally free essence which you should identify with. Even that essence underneath it all, that fundamental sense of self-consciousness is a fraction of this total character that is the ego or seperate self. This total character must be understood and transcended. In every feature, function, part, relation, state - waking, dreaming, and sleeping - this consciousness that is identified with in the "talking school" is nothing but the bare consciousness of the waking state, or attention apart from objects. It is not, in any sense, a practice of enlightenment or enlightened understanding; it is simply egoic consciousness. That egoic consciousness in all of its forms must be transcended for any spiritual understanding to awaken.
Avatar Adi Da Samraj
What Is The Conscious Process?
Thank you for injecting some Trurh into this tangle of mind that is Ken Wilber and his admirers. It truly is the dark epic if Wilber’s narrative is dominating.
Vande Guru Sri Charanaravinadam. < 3 Please take your meds.
Kai is this what you mean by take your "medicine"?
"vande guroh sri-charanaravindam":
By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the benediction of Krsna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement. Therefore, I should always remember and praise the spiritual master.
@@julieanderson8380Bingo. You've obviously eaten some Mung Daal in your time.
Wilber at his very best
This is the clearest and to the point presentation of nirvana, samsara and the nondual state I have ever seen/heard. Personal shadow-work is probably the most unrespected and missing part in most spiritual "stuff". It is so obvious why this ruins otherwise so greatly developed teachers. Great interview
Ken Wilber is an amazingly wise and enlightened person. And, guys, really, thanks a lot for the questions you were asking him! Brilliant questions and brilliant answers. I'm subscribing :)
Adi Da didn’t need to get drunk in order to open up but a number of his devotees did, and that is why alcohol was occasionally used in the early gatherings, to temporarily sensitise his devotees in order that they would be receptive to his spiritual transmission . He was neither a drunk not a womaniser. He had a profound spiritual connection with each of his partners. Surface judgements fall woefully short of the truth.
Regarding some of the comments; 'Let he without sin cast the first stone.' I enjoyed listing to this. Thank you, Ken.
We don't have to be perfect to call out BS. You're misunderstanding that saying. The way you're using it gives cover and is a version of the defence discussed where any problem we see is only ever our own ego; a sty in our own eye only.
The way you're using this biblical phrase is protecting the abuser and dismisses and thus dishonours the real suffering of people who have been at the receiving end, which you apparently have not known, so, it's easy to say.
Finally, it's not just about the suffering of victims which you may or may not care about, but there is a principle of truth here, at stake.
If anyone hasn't read ken wilber, just do it, nothing will bring more clarity to every aspect of your life and work than his models
And everything that is broke in the world is just missing an integral framework
I’m no follower. I never have been but I take what is offered if it resonates as truth in my own psyche. Ken has some pretty good insights as does other teachers of this era. Discernment is best.
Love this interview, and I really relate to Ken's point of view on nirvana, and especially on the subject of guru behavior.
I'm sorry but as much as I love Ken, I've never understood the distinction between waking up and growing up. One might have brief glimpses of awakened consciousness despite being undeveloped in terms of the body-mind. But in order to fully awaken, there can be no complexes left in the body mind. There may be 'gurus', such as Andrew Cohen, who behave in narcissistic ways, but that just shows how much of a fraud they are. And there may be other gurus, such as Adi Da, who are pilloried for certain behaviours that are in fact necessary teaching aids for the devotees present at that time.
Thank you for mentioning Father Thomas Keating ❤
_"Sudden awakening, gradual cultivation."_
I believe this has been around in the Zen tradition for a while, and it points to waking up, cleaning up, and growing up.
돈오점수
He brings up the problem in spiritual circles I have been discussing for years. The mystical view must merge with the scientific view so you can apply wisdom while operating in the world accordingly.
Wisdom is not predicated on science. And the problem with (some of) these spiritual circles was not lack of science, but rather, lack of wisdom (prajna), maturity, and morality (sila).
In my experience, meditation have been lead me to whole process of cleaning, transforming and live in no duality step by step. When we reached it we can really understand the four noble trues of budhism, not just know about.
@@DiegoLinde you are right! Sorry!
@@DiegoLindeI speak portuguese and I have to improve my english.
If it works for You, that's great. Usually we get stuck along the way if we are not aware of the simple fact, that there is such a thing as shadow and therefor rationalize, where it should be about accepting and letting go. It's an individual process with no final goal, neither no goal, nor both, nort neither of both... namaste :-)
This old sage is quite right... Here in east in Hindu and Muslim mystic traditions a desiple is traind in unconditonal obedience rather servitude to the Guru Or Murshid. There is saying " A DESCIPLE TO A GURU IS LIKE A UNCONSINCE AND NAKED PATIENT ON A TABLE IN OPERATION THEATER BEFORE HIS DOCTOR"
The chasm between form and emptiness is the cause of deep suffering. What the DSM5 calls "depersonalization" is absolutely an experience of this chasm. The fact that emptiness is not other than form, is the very reason, you can feel separated from it. If they were in truth, not connected, then there would be no way to feel separated. Our mental health authorities often have little insight into spiritual realities, and often are not even aware of their own lack of awareness of their own psyche. This is causing much ignorance to spread on what mental illness may turn out to actually be. We are filtering "sicknesses" of the Soul/Psyche through eyes of materialism. "That which is emptiness is not other than form, and that which is form is not other than emptiness". This is a statement that will stand the test of time. The apostle Paul wrote "we walk inside his being" when speaking of God. The creation is not separate from its creator at the absolute level, but that doesn't change the experience of samsara, the experience of the relative, from not feeling like actual hell at times. Will we find the truth within ourselves, and compassion on others ignorance while this world either transforms, or falls before our eyes? These are not worthless endeavors. Absolute Love still remains after catastrophe, or the apocalypse, wether it be our own personal shattering of identity, or assisting in the healing of other vessels outside ourselves. But this is Gods will that works through us, it is not that the we as separate identities will ourselves to love and truth. Just felt like writing that up. Peace and blessings to all walking the way, even on the days it feels too much to bear, we know we shall overcome.
"emptiness is not other than form" there is no separation the traditional way it is taught in Mahayana Buddhism (more analogous to a wave-particle duality) but for sure anyone could have problems if taken out of context or without the proper education for it. The Tibetan culture does not teach this out of context traditionally. See commentaries on the Heart Sutra by HH Dalai Lama or Thich Naht Hanh.
thank you
When I hear about these abusive figures, I fall into thinking that probably personal experience and discipline might be the best guides after all.
Anyone who wants to become a guru is not fully enlightened. A deep part of them is still unenlightened which is why they try to seek others to enlighten, since they're a projection of their own enlightened part. A true guru does not seek students, they just naturally gravitate towards them, a la Ramana Maharshi.
@@zootsoot2006 But that ignores the part of the Bodhisattva vow that anyone that is allowed to gain enlightenment is morally obligated to pass on that knowledge to others to let them gain enlightenment also. After all it has always been true that "With Great Power there also must come Great Responsibility" so you might not have to become famous as a Guru but it is not just projection to seek others to enlighten from any skillful means that you can find
@@zootsoot2006 People were having awakening experiences when they were in Adi Da’s company when he was Franklin Jones. He wasn’t seeking students or devotees . They were drawn to him
@@ArgonTheAware Well put, Argon.
Amazing Interview
How does Ken reconcile his years of mutual adoration and support for fallen emotionally crippled Andrew Cohen? They publicly adored each other, sharing the stage and limelight for years as Andrew's megalomania ran amok for decades. They obviously benefited business wise from their association.
david fields, this is an excellent point. I am not aware that Ken has publicly made any statements on the "emotionally crippled Andrew Cohen." Cohen seriously and horribly abused many spiritual seekers who sought spiritual insight and refuge. Given Ken's many years of association with Cohen, it seems reasonable to expect him to have made some kind of statement about this. If anyone knows of anything Ken has said or written in this regard, I would be interested in knowing about it.
Charles Scott thank you for your response.
Ken seemed to be drawn towards narcissists. No one's perfect.
I think he made some reference to it in one of his Rebel Wisdom interviews (could be wrong)
I would suggest this speaks to Ken’s unowned Shadow.
This actually got me out of being stuck in the unmanifest
So odd that now hearing this validates to myself that infact I have reached the highest state but it happened before any knowledge about these practices and now that I have closure about my awakening I haven't come close to that again.
What state was that?
I wonder whether Alan Watts had a shadow? I love his RUclips talks but I read he had a serious alcohol problem. Watts was asked why he drank so much and he said it was because he hated himself and wanted out. But you will never guess this by listening to his melodic, happy English voice.
It would appear that some of watts shadow elements were appropriating and portraying the role of legitimate “eastern,” spiritual teacher. It hadn’t been done prior to him in the west and so was a blind spot ripe and rife for posing as the master. That one has access, and even an intellectual or inner understanding of truth/information does not make one a qualified and authentic teacher, as we pretty much well know nowadays
everyone has a shadow
From what I can tell there is no person who has woken up or grown up to a stage that isn’t still primarily driven by the shadow. But, say in the case of Ken Wilber and his teachings, there are a few with a more fully developed awareness of the shadow.
The need to have “my” answer versus “the” answer to our current psychological and spiritual problems, seems to be the prevalent obstacle.
To develop beyond this stage takes individuation. And that means you as an individual have addressed and solved the problem of the shadow to the degree it is not the driver of your reality.
Reminds me of another point Wilber said about doing shadow work to get to the shadow...
"The shadow will bite you in the ass when you're not looking. The shadow will also bite you in the ass when you *are* looking, but at least you'll know it's there."
I just want to live, let’s start there.
Book 33
Tell us about your bromance with Andrew Cohen
Rude boys...
Always gonna be shadow projection on yt
@@fightington just read his rude boys article. I spent a year at the Andrew Cohen community in the 90s when Wilber was a regular contributor to his magazine and they did many talks together. Unfortunately, Andrew's shadow must have completely blindsided Ken, fortunately it didn't blindside me
I'm not saying Wilber doesn't have some valuable points.
The " postmodernists", the " green people " would desperately need shadow works . That would possibly really save the world and preserve cultures and natures . There is no contradiction between the two. Greetings to Ken and Wishes for health and a long life. From the middle of my heart. I am drinking Red Bull to you , dear Ken . Not my guru . A friend in the " frosts of freedom ".
Real Spirituality is beyond thinking, maps, modalities, and wokeness. Ken subtly dismisses the deeply powerful teachings of Adi Da and plugs his model as superior. Adi Da is the deepest body of Spiritual Wisdom on the planet. Ken is amazing, and best at Jnana, or the intellectual style of Waking Up to the Self. The Bhakti or surrendered loving devotional element is lacking from this approach. Adi Da combined both, and so was quite worldly and sex-positive. Working at that level is largely experimental, as in a devotional and non-dual sense the right thing at the right time often animated whatever was appropriate, uncensored and ecstatic. His teachings and personality aren't for the faint of heart or spiritual consumers, and the opinions of those folk dont change the magnanimity of the offering. Love.
I believe Wilber held Adi Da in the highest regard at one point, actually putting him as virtually the highest of the highest. But Mr. Da had his share of shadow issues apparently too, right?
@@jr6200 Funny just an hour ago I listened to a thebeezone interview released today with intimate Adi Da devotee Julie Anderson Its somewhat advanced, yet brilliant, and they discuss Wilber's stance on Adi Da. It's on RUclips. Worth a listen. I feel integral is stuck having cancelled its main Guru, so itself is experiencing some pathologies. Wilber prepped me for Adi Da though, so maybe that is his function as an intermediary. He seems to allude to this being his intention mentioning that the deepest would find Da eventually, which was the case for me, because integral leaves one with somewhat of a cultic emptiness and arrogance that Adi Da rebuilds as fullness truly Spiritual. Love.
@@jr6200 P.S. shadow self I feel is a function of the notion of a separate self that is obliterated when awakening fully into and as Love. There is a litany of metaphysical maps that Da left behind in his prolific writings that dwarf Wilber's. It is clear studying those teachings that they are different leagues with an actual spirit current associated with Da. It's a matter of corroboration via investigation rather than immediately canceling over smear notions and psychological fad lingo. I think of shadow work as something done at beginning stages in order to stabilize the ego enough for the process of transcendence to begin. Wilber may disagree in his model, yet all lines still merge in the Heart.
@@jgannon1637 I suppose you don't accept the various reports of Adi Da being abusive, doing lots of drugs, forcing people to have sex with others and with him etc?
@@jr6200 I know there are reports and contexts. I'm not woke. I follow Love, not smears. Not into abuse tho. Tricky because there are boundaries and egos to protect, yet Gurus are tasked with breaking those down to discover the egoless Divine. Tough to say. I see cancel culture as narcissism though, so actually easy for me to dismiss as ego games.
Woww everything is so true. Amazing
It is amazing how unsophisticated this unenlightened rant is by who used to be one of the greatest spiritual pandits of the late 20th century -- Ken Wilber is distorting history and what Gurus do and what they can offer people just so HIS theories are as seen as the best ever: talk about hidden shadows! And to do this to these inquisitive attentive young adults, who just lap it up with no ability (or knowledge) to contradict or challenge the Almighty Ken Wilber is very sad. Let me say: SOME of what Ken says is true but a WHOLE LOT is wrong, false, and deluding. He distorts history because traditions of the past did in fact know what "Growing Up" and "Cleaning Up" were all about -- they just didn't call it "modern psychology" but the principles were the same: human maturity and healthy compassion and love for other human beings. His debasing of the Guru function and what the Eastern Gurus did in the 1960s and 70s is pathetic -- Ken himself sat at the feet of Zen Masters and Buddhist Rinpoches who SERVED his awakening -- but now he acts, and misleads these young people as if Gurus simply operate from below the navel (sex and self-indulgence) which is ludicrous, misleading, and bad karma. DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS VERSION OF KEN WILBER for he is wrong about so much it's impossible to explain it all -- he will not sit and have open discussions with people who can challenge his views: talk about cultic! And he offers NO TRANSMISSION of the enlightened state nor does he talk about Right Life and real spiritual practice except in the most simple terms -- thus be forwarned: yes, some of Wilber's books and ideas are very useful... but his oversimplification of spirituality to the 4 or 5 "UPs" is childish and adolescent as he fights back against "mommy and daddy" authority figures (aka real Gurus) in order to make his integral way the best ever ("in the history of the world," yes, his words)... and it is not. Real Gurus are to be honored and revered -- sure, learn to tell the authentic ones from the fakes, like duh. Maybe Wilber should try helping people do that! This version of Ken has lost it. Be careful, folks, and this is coming from someone who loves Ken very much and admires much of what he has done... in the past. This talk is mostly garbage.
The Beatles also sang "Sexy Sadie" which tore the Maharishi Yogi a new 1. U take what u want according 2 the frequency u r on.
No more gurus, okay.
Ok green
@@michaelmcclure3383 No i'm not Green Gartside (although i am impressed you know of him) but i did work at Findhorn.
Anything else you wanna know?
what shadow do I need to box when I cannot watch this guy on the right with his mouth hanging open? I tried to cover that side of the video with another browser window... yet, then, the guy shows up in the middle part of the video... I need a 2nd tier opinion, please!!!
The problem is also the naive students. I'm not blaming real victims, but y'all need to check out a teacher for a long time before making that commitment.
What actually was the legit, woke, enlightened, teacher-gurus with complicated residual shadow issues vs your run-of-the-mill spiritual-con-artist ratio Ken? Do we have any data on that Ken?
Let’s all do a bit of shadow boxing or eat that shadow. If we don’t transform the pain and the shame we surely will project it on to others. Ken is cool. For me it’s...the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death🙏🌹🥳
Calling the world of form "Samsara" is an insult to the Divine Feminine and the teaching of samsara is rooted in patriarchy, misogyny, and narcissism. Yes, the world is deeply flawed. But that's because the world is being co-created by wounded souls and narcissistic egos. However, you don't forsake, condemn, or seek to escape the world. One must develop an attitude of compassion like a Bodhisattva. Human beings live in this world and without the world, humans cannot survive on this planet, at least most of us cannot survive this conditional existence. Earth is a school. To realize the Oneness and to exclude the Many is an incomplete realization. To realize the Many and not the One is also incomplete. One must bring these opposites together. There is the very real phenomenon of the spiritual bypass and spiritual narcissism. Adi Da is perfect example of an unhealed shadow and partial realization or integration. He arrogated himself to the level of "Avatar" but behaved like a narcissistic demon and hurt many.
Real guru cannot have a shadow
Ken points out that far too many leaders are willing to abuse their followers in their lust for money, power, and sex. It's up to followers to say no. This includes to leaders that Ken is even now currently endorsing.
Who do you mean?
"Crazy wisdom" is what he's talking about, and it has been a problem for a long time.
He should not have taken those names. A lot of his followers take him for his word, it can incite hate towards other teachers.
Mr Wilber is undoubtedly a very intelligent being, but is clearly in an advanced state of delusion if he thinks (and he is obviously operating from an intellectual ego-state, complete with "ums" galore) that he actually understands all of the dynamics of the universe and can therefore observe and comment definitely upon the creation it from his oh-so-lofty perch. That said, his observation that most, if not all of the eastern gurus who have flooded the west since the 60s and the newer self-declared western purveyors (for a hefty price) of truth - the SAND folks for exmple - are frauds who, although they may have had awakening experiences, are not nearly as evolved as beings as they claim, is, as he notes, a real problem.
What are your sources of Ken claiming he knows it all ?
14:34
Agreed. Best sentences of the entire video
This is a too simplistic explanation and doesn’t address that the vast majority of these trainings, have specific focus on not reacting to physical and mental desires, such as hunger, thirst, lust etc. the whole training of yoga is to train the body and mind is such a way to not attach to desire, removing impurities and ignorance.
He said it succinctly and he said it the best I am the way the truth and the life, find out what that means and you will forget about all the garbage that you hear continually coming out of the brains and mouth that people that are being used by the evil one to confuse you
Sexuality, is the most shadow of all. Everyone self steam depends on it. All men and women value themselves based on their sexual attractiveness.
Look to anyone who receive a compliment on their appearance and how they look beautiful? They shine up directly.
All spiritual and motivational teachers touch this subject with two hands open. So they match people fears and insecurities about this subject, and more they develop strong attention to whom they seek more pleasurable self fallfilment through it.
The human psych is tricky, all I see is how many weak men inters these type of work in addition to yoga teaching just for the female part.
For everyone out there, your own spirituality is already in you. Go out there to discover not to learn. Observe and never absorb. You’re not like anyone in this earth neither you will be like anyone. Investigate within when you face an obstacle. Never lie to yourself this is the model.
The shadow in the first place is what you have been lying to yourself all along. When you call out your own shit. You reached your truth.
It is still very much happening, and has gotten much worse since 1970. Everybody whos teachings has to do with tantra and/ ore sharmanisme in the New Age Community, is abusing some of the volnerable student in some horrible way ( A World wide example: Tibetan Buddhism). I would know! And how can you separate states of waking up, from shadow work ? what else is there to wake up to ? We are humans living a human existence.
There's nothing to awaken to.
@@SMH-vi4ht ask them.
@@SMH-vi4ht it's funny. You got it.
Turned up Side down You can live for years and repress all kinds of uncomfortable stuff, become a seeker, meditate, and have an awakening and boom! Here it is. Now you’ll have to find a way to deal with the pieces. It’s tough but necessary if you want that peace. That’s why so many healers are being created. Clearing the human energy field, or cleaning up as Ken calls it, is required to effectively live as an enlightened person and feel whole, and more importantly joyful.
Turned up Side down I hope what we are waking up to is a happier life. We’re all looking for heaven. Even a drug addict, a money addict or a chocolate addict etc is looking for heaven.
Sexual abuse happened well before people got to California. If you know some people in religious traditions who trust you, talk to them.
I am 40 years in integral yoga (sri Aurobindo and the mother) , every day efforts, sometimes more, sometimes less.
my only Problem seeing myself and also the world: is adwaita Vedanta, Buddha the ultimate truth, or is a big step for us coming now , solution of all, the supramental force working? the supramental truth. now, this is my work to try to be most open. to endure, to stand the confusion.
otherwise I don´t Need any Input anymore. no Methods, no readings
I just live my cautious life, my vegetarian Food, my rejection for power, my modesty for Money and property, my disciplin in sex-life- ect.
all this is not a big Thing. the big Thing for me is not to despise my surroundings. to reject a prioi a contact. like this Young women with some metal in her face - how can she dare to talk to me?
Whoever has any knowledge based on true spiritual traditions of the world knows a simple fact that whatever comes from USA cannot have spiritual value. And this so called philosopher is a great example of this plain fact. Sadly, some spiritual seekers could be exposed to his pseudo intellectual BS and get an impression he knows what he talks about. He has got no clue what GURU is, trying to focus all the attention on himself as someone wise and worth listening to. Do not get fooled by this fake master...
Yeah true guru's are liberated, no shadow whatsoever.
wojtan My god, he just offering his insights not trying to set himself up as a guru. You can take it or leave it.
He misinterprets Buddhist philosophy and thinks he knows better. It’s ridiculous!! .
I think by the 80s / 90s most of these as-portrayed-here, bad actors of the 60s / 70s had faded, or maybe were just overtaken by the self-help enthrallment and capitalization that followed. I learned meditation in a serious sangha in the late 80s and were taught butt-wiping in a context of merit badges for levels achieved right at the outset. It was good as cub scouts and some of the same animals were woven into those badges. Lions, Tigers, Garudas. But some of these outfits regressed in the 90s (as women took over, I think) and became obsessed with how well everyone was wiping their asses. Not sure why anyone focused on spiritual rigour would bother to discuss this topic at such length. Paranoia (or an axe to grind) I guess.
Neal Brenard I think he is just talking about basic codes of human conduct - respect - self control - accountability, very important things to not spread ones own neglected garbage onto other vulnerable undeserving beings.
The ax was ground by the wrong doers, Ken has the courage here to pick it up and swing it for safety and protection. That’s just my opinion anyhow.
All such GURUS are really exploiting their followers monaterly and filling up their cofers.
Thats your ego deal with it.. didn't he say that?
“Never trust a hippie”
Mr SuperNobody Why not, if what they are offering resonates with your senses.
Cindy Weir ☝🏼Don’t take it too seriously... Although there are a lot more important things in life than your senses.🃏
Mr. Wilber I respectfully recommend that you read CS Lewis's book a mind awake before you check out of this world, because you are severely disillusioned,
harry craft how so? Can you share your perspective please?
Rude boys...
"Guru hitting on a 15 year old girl.". Must be referring to adida.