Interesting. I agree about the term “ self taught.” You see this in any art area. But if I learn from your videos, then I’m not self taught… if I read books that are explicitly “how to books”, then I am not self taught. It is important to give credit where it’s due. It speaks of integrity. IMHO I’m grateful for teachers in whatever format.
A very thorough and scientific overview of this important topic: Black-on-White Pottery. Thanks, Andy! What would we do without you? You are a modern-day blessing.
This was my presentation at the 2022 Southwest Kiln Conference. When I gave this presentation on Friday we were hoping to try some of the ideas at the pottery firings on Saturday but it rained all day Saturday. So I hope to fire soon and film it for a video, so look for a follow-up video soon. In the meantime, check out some of the firings that took place at last year's conference ruclips.net/p/PLxjk09ZJzrlsTsZBsEz3rrh9OlvW8ZDFI
really fun presentation! Your depth of knowledge is great to listen to, and your passion shows through. The black on white stuff is truly very pretty; the contrast just grabs your eyes. Hope you have good success with the experiments and firings you mention here soon!
I love those black and whites. Pothunters turned replicators. How else would one be inspired, then to travel the same trail as the spirits who created these majestic pieces of art? Take it till you make it!!! LOL! thats only a joke! kinda! Great video, Andy! Truly a pleasure to see these combinations of technique and style!
Really interesting episode! Loved all the detail you packed in here. Just an observation though, the use of a trench kiln would seem to depend on how much pottery is being fired at once. I'd expect smaller communities to just fire individual pots as needed. In that case, a trench kiln seems like a lot of extra work. Perhaps larger communities organized larger firings to make more efficient use of time and resources. It makes me wonder if any archaeologists have found a correlation with trench kilns and settlement size.
Thanks! I have seen this discussed, not among archaeologists but among replicators. There are huge, community sized kilns and small household sized kilns. Many replicators have small, household sized kilns in their yards. If you are making organic paint black on white there is no substitute for a smothered trench kiln for producing white whites and black blacks.
Andy, one thing I don't recall having heard you talk about is if you've had a conversation with a chemist about the oxidation phases of iron and if there are ways to promote the creation & retention of Iron(II) Oxide [black] and inhibit Iron(III) Oxide [red] under the conditions of open firing. There might have been a catalyst (or whatever the opposite is called) which the ancients used that washed off after firing - Just my fleeting thoughts.
You will love Jeff Cooper's presentation which deals with exactly this subject. I recorded it and will be posting it here in the next week or two. And yes, I would love to get an expert's thoughts on the oxidation process because I definitely have some unanswered questions about the process of oxidizing iron.
I am from Brazil and i think you would find interesting the Marojoara ceramic Or even some north eastern brazil or Capixaba black ceramic Our policromes look very much like those from the video very interesting great content keep up sir!!! 👍🏼👍🏼
That video was awesome! I have seen the videos where at the end they put dirt on top at the end to reduce the oxygen. I have seen your concern regarding the dirt containing carbon so that it might discolor the pots. For the smothering, couldn't you heat up sand in pots in the fire next to what is being fired, and then pour that hot sand over the cooling pots or take the pots out and set them face down in one hot pot of sand and then pour another hot pot of sand on top? I don't know, just a thought.
I'm looking forward to tonights ancient pottery Zoom meeting and probably some educated questions and comments. I took notes on the entire presentation. Man that was a lot for a beginner but taking notes is more mechanical than cerebral. Ill keep them and return as needed plus re-view the video too. One of the things I learned as a new potter and new ancient pottery student is that there are some simple (simplish techniques and processes for me to start in e.g. oxidation) and then as I progress to go deeper. Since I live in Montana with Gene, I'm super glad to have such experience both a few hours a way and also via Zoom tonight. It sure facilitates my education. I am sure thankful to you both for bringing me along.
All fascinating .. great video … makes RUclips worth watching, thanks. My trash can kiln almost complete. I hoping to stumble on to things not replicate process , if the kiln works , I will play with black on white, somehow.
I tend to lean in the direction of “ no smother” and I am not saying I’m right! I’m not sure but I have had some fair to good results using both hemitite for red and limonite for black all in the same firing but like I said , I have no real predictable results yet . Dog gone Andy has us all crazy over primitive pottery ! So much fun
It may be a non starter considering the type of clay you're using but in modern times we lock in reduction all the time in Raku with a water quench. Primitive clay should have enough sand to withstand the thermal shock, worth a try on a test tile...
Somewhere in my book collection I thought I saw or read about a shallow clay lined depression they found at one of the Mimbres sites. About 2 inches deep 1.5’ x 2’ wide they thought was a kiln feature. Can’t find it at the moment. Also a bunch of those black on white bowls have oxidized red or gold designs inside. Much like the Greek pottery. They got that iron so black!
I have property in northern california that is very iron clay. these experiments look so interesting I want to play. problem is it is am 4 hour drive away from where I am living now. fuel getting there and back is a no go right now.
Because we didn't get to fire at the conference because of the rain the experiments didn't get done. So hopefully I can do that soon and post a video about it.
That's very interesting, i always wanted to know the techniques about the black on white pottery. I have a question: i don't have access to any cover shreds that you mentioned in your videos like metal buckets, large earthenware shards, so i can make a substitute by breaking the common terracotta pots for plants? They would they be good for oxidized firing? If you know any other method please tell me. Thanks a lot Andy!!
You can use flower pots. The trouble is that they are not tempered very well so they tend to crack and break apart in an outdoor firing. In my experience a flower pot is good for only one firing, so you have to keep buying new ones as they break. Metal works better because it lasts forever.
I haven't yet seen how to tell if a clay is a smectite type clay. Do you have to fire it and just experiment if will be white and organic paint will bond to it?
It is really expensive to have clay tested at a laboratory. So I just kind of guess. Smectites are extremely plastic, have extreme shrinkage and are formed from volcanic ash. So you can make an educated guess using that information and of course test it with organic paint too.
nice one. lots of info here. could the piece of pottery be placed painted side down just barely off the hot coals, over the hot earth. with cover sherds, then fire the pottery up to you needed temp. then as soon as you hit the desired temperature, don't touch the pot, don't move them, don't take them out, just bury it all quickly, then do not open it until the next day. just thinking out loud here, because i have a hard enough time just getting rite conditions to fire in. another great video thanks
Could work but what are you burying it with? Dirt is full of organic matter that would carbonize on the pot. This is similar to the cover sherd and smother idea I talked about in the video. The cover sherds are there to keep the earth from contacting the pot and smudging it.
@@AncientPottery maybe bury it with the burnt ashes from the primary fire, the organic should be burnt out of that. what i was thinking is, as soon as you lift that pot to turn it over you have exposed it to oxygen, no matter how fast you do it. i am just guessing but if the pot stays in the fire and not moved that may minimize that from happening. i am long way from trying to make nice painted pottery, it was just the problem solving side of my brain kicking in.
Have you ever looked up the process of rust bluing that's used for firearms? Is it possible that some of the pots were fired then intentionally boiled to promote turning the red pigment black?
@@AncientPottery The first part of the process I was taught had the first step be de-greasing the metal. Then we used dilute nitric acid and peroxide to create rust on a steel surface. Once the rust was there, all we had to do was put it in boiling waster and repeat the process until we got the color we wanted. It seems logical, to me at least, that starting with the rust already being there should make it easier, though more paint may need to be added in the process. If you have the resources to experiment a bit, maybe try it on a small tile and see how it works out
I'm not an expert on New Mexico Pueblo pottery but from my understanding Jemez black on white is made exactly like Anasazi organic painted black on white and is even fired in a smothered pit in the same manner.
@@AncientPottery very interested in recreating the Jemez black on white. There is an artist that has recreated the craft but not so open to teaching. Some info on how to would be great!
Really interesting anlaysis. I don't believe not finding trench kilns means anything. When a trench kiln is found it is usually mistaken for some kind of hearth, in Sweden like a prehistoric "cooking pit", "covered with clay" which "explains" the burnt sherds found in them, I myself excavated some of these full of charcoal. They are just not visible to archaeologists as firing pits for pots. But whether in a pit or not, why not cover the fire with earth when it is the hotest? This is believed to be the basic method among archaeologists for making reduced firings and it is how I do it, although sometimes I get really black pots, sometimes almost red ones, I haven't quite sorted it out yet, but it probably has to do with the wind always interfering somehow in northern Sweden's coast. Why would you pull out the pots from the fire, why not let them cool down covered by earth? Tomorrow I'll do a great fire with some of my pupils using the same method, and another one Tuesday, as I teach already Prehistoric pottery methods to local people interested, it's really fun. I'm sure you'll get it right.
Maybe you can help me out I'm new to pottery. I'm in the land of the Caddo Indian I sourced some clay from the Ouachita River it is dark grey I started processing it today. I'm trying the wet method since I ended up with gravel mixed in is there a better way
@@nickb8791 Oh! “A country” meaning an area, a region, you know like you might say “that’s awful pretty country” or “this is cowboy country”. I grew up in Sierra Vista, Arizona.
Interesting. I agree about the term “ self taught.” You see this in any art area. But if I learn from your videos, then I’m not self taught… if I read books that are explicitly “how to books”, then I am not self taught. It is important to give credit where it’s due. It speaks of integrity. IMHO I’m grateful for teachers in whatever format.
Something not taught in art school: humility.
A very thorough and scientific overview of this important topic: Black-on-White Pottery. Thanks, Andy! What would we do without you? You are a modern-day blessing.
My pleasure!
I don't care about pottery, let alone ancient pottery, but your channel is extremely interesting. Can't stop watching.
Awesome, thanks
This was my presentation at the 2022 Southwest Kiln Conference. When I gave this presentation on Friday we were hoping to try some of the ideas at the pottery firings on Saturday but it rained all day Saturday. So I hope to fire soon and film it for a video, so look for a follow-up video soon. In the meantime, check out some of the firings that took place at last year's conference ruclips.net/p/PLxjk09ZJzrlsTsZBsEz3rrh9OlvW8ZDFI
Thanks to you, Andy, I saw this video of polychrome pottery made by Michael Hawley
ruclips.net/video/BhgkP-6SdAg/видео.html
really fun presentation! Your depth of knowledge is great to listen to, and your passion shows through. The black on white stuff is truly very pretty; the contrast just grabs your eyes.
Hope you have good success with the experiments and firings you mention here soon!
Thanks. If the weather holds up I might be able to fire this weekend.
I love those black and whites. Pothunters turned replicators. How else would one be inspired, then to travel the same trail as the spirits who created these majestic pieces of art? Take it till you make it!!! LOL! thats only a joke! kinda! Great video, Andy! Truly a pleasure to see these combinations of technique and style!
Ha ha! "Take it till you make it". Thanks
Really interesting episode! Loved all the detail you packed in here. Just an observation though, the use of a trench kiln would seem to depend on how much pottery is being fired at once. I'd expect smaller communities to just fire individual pots as needed. In that case, a trench kiln seems like a lot of extra work. Perhaps larger communities organized larger firings to make more efficient use of time and resources. It makes me wonder if any archaeologists have found a correlation with trench kilns and settlement size.
That's an interesting thought.
Thanks! I have seen this discussed, not among archaeologists but among replicators. There are huge, community sized kilns and small household sized kilns. Many replicators have small, household sized kilns in their yards. If you are making organic paint black on white there is no substitute for a smothered trench kiln for producing white whites and black blacks.
Andy, one thing I don't recall having heard you talk about is if you've had a conversation with a chemist about the oxidation phases of iron and if there are ways to promote the creation & retention of Iron(II) Oxide [black] and inhibit Iron(III) Oxide [red] under the conditions of open firing. There might have been a catalyst (or whatever the opposite is called) which the ancients used that washed off after firing - Just my fleeting thoughts.
You will love Jeff Cooper's presentation which deals with exactly this subject. I recorded it and will be posting it here in the next week or two. And yes, I would love to get an expert's thoughts on the oxidation process because I definitely have some unanswered questions about the process of oxidizing iron.
I am from Brazil and i think you would find interesting the Marojoara ceramic
Or even some north eastern brazil or Capixaba black ceramic
Our policromes look very much like those from the video very interesting great content keep up sir!!! 👍🏼👍🏼
That video was awesome! I have seen the videos where at the end they put dirt on top at the end to reduce the oxygen. I have seen your concern regarding the dirt containing carbon so that it might discolor the pots. For the smothering, couldn't you heat up sand in pots in the fire next to what is being fired, and then pour that hot sand over the cooling pots or take the pots out and set them face down in one hot pot of sand and then pour another hot pot of sand on top? I don't know, just a thought.
Yes, I have even used fairly clean natural sand without bothering to heat it up or anything and it worked okay. I think I will try this again soon.
I'm looking forward to tonights ancient pottery Zoom meeting and probably some educated questions and comments. I took notes on the entire presentation. Man that was a lot for a beginner but taking notes is more mechanical than cerebral. Ill keep them and return as needed plus re-view the video too.
One of the things I learned as a new potter and new ancient pottery student is that there are some simple (simplish techniques and processes for me to start in e.g. oxidation) and then as I progress to go deeper.
Since I live in Montana with Gene, I'm super glad to have such experience both a few hours a way and also via Zoom tonight. It sure facilitates my education. I am sure thankful to you both for bringing me along.
Thanks! Yes, you have to crawl before you can run, take one step at a time and you will get there.
You are a true scientist! Thank you for posting!
Glad you enjoyed it.
Great video Andy! Thank you for all this information, your videos are always inspiring to me and wake up the muses🙏🏻✨✨✨🧚🏻♀️
You are so welcome
Awesome!!
Thanks!
Thank you for sharing!! Keep up the good work!
Thank you! Will do!
All fascinating .. great video … makes RUclips worth watching, thanks.
My trash can kiln almost complete. I hoping to stumble on to things not replicate process , if the kiln works , I will play with black on white, somehow.
Great
I tend to lean in the direction of “ no smother” and I am not saying I’m right! I’m not sure but I have had some fair to good results using both hemitite for red and limonite for black all in the same firing but like I said , I have no real predictable results yet . Dog gone Andy has us all crazy over primitive pottery ! So much fun
You presentation offered some great food for thought in this regard. I will be posting it here in the next week or two. Thanks!
It may be a non starter considering the type of clay you're using but in modern times we lock in reduction all the time in Raku with a water quench. Primitive clay should have enough sand to withstand the thermal shock, worth a try on a test tile...
It might be fun to try, but was unlikely the way it was done in ancient times.
@@AncientPottery I agree, very unlikely, but it is a primitive technology
This is such a great video. But I now need to rewatch it and take notes because my brain hurts 😂
Yeah, there's a lot to take in here for sure.
Somewhere in my book collection I thought I saw or read about a shallow clay lined depression they found at one of the Mimbres sites. About 2 inches deep 1.5’ x 2’ wide they thought was a kiln feature. Can’t find it at the moment. Also a bunch of those black on white bowls have oxidized red or gold designs inside. Much like the Greek pottery. They got that iron so black!
Interesting, I have never heard about that possible kiln. Let me know if you figure out where that is written about.
I have property in northern california that is very iron clay. these experiments look so interesting I want to play. problem is it is am 4 hour drive away from where I am living now. fuel getting there and back is a no go right now.
I hear that. I fire my pottery out on public land and nowadays I am going out to fire less because of the cost of gas to get there.
@3:27 I see the step pyramids & Egyptian pyramids on that bowl
I would like to see the results of the smothering and pull and smother.
Because we didn't get to fire at the conference because of the rain the experiments didn't get done. So hopefully I can do that soon and post a video about it.
@@AncientPottery that would be cool.
👍
That's very interesting, i always wanted to know the techniques about the black on white pottery. I have a question: i don't have access to any cover shreds that you mentioned in your videos like metal buckets, large earthenware shards, so i can make a substitute by breaking the common terracotta pots for plants? They would they be good for oxidized firing? If you know any other method please tell me. Thanks a lot Andy!!
You can use flower pots. The trouble is that they are not tempered very well so they tend to crack and break apart in an outdoor firing. In my experience a flower pot is good for only one firing, so you have to keep buying new ones as they break. Metal works better because it lasts forever.
I haven't yet seen how to tell if a clay is a smectite type clay. Do you have to fire it and just experiment if will be white and organic paint will bond to it?
It is really expensive to have clay tested at a laboratory. So I just kind of guess. Smectites are extremely plastic, have extreme shrinkage and are formed from volcanic ash. So you can make an educated guess using that information and of course test it with organic paint too.
nice one. lots of info here.
could the piece of pottery be placed painted side down just barely off the hot coals, over the hot earth. with cover sherds, then fire the pottery up to you needed temp. then as soon as you hit the desired temperature, don't touch the pot, don't move them, don't take them out, just bury it all quickly, then do not open it until the next day.
just thinking out loud here, because i have a hard enough time just getting rite conditions to fire in.
another great video
thanks
Could work but what are you burying it with? Dirt is full of organic matter that would carbonize on the pot. This is similar to the cover sherd and smother idea I talked about in the video. The cover sherds are there to keep the earth from contacting the pot and smudging it.
@@AncientPottery maybe bury it with the burnt ashes from the primary fire, the organic should be burnt out of that.
what i was thinking is, as soon as you lift that pot to turn it over you have exposed it to oxygen, no matter how fast you do it. i am just guessing but if the pot stays in the fire and not moved that may minimize that from happening.
i am long way from trying to make nice painted pottery, it was just the problem solving side of my brain kicking in.
@@oldugly9295 Yes, good idea. If the ash was totally clean it would be a safe smothering medium.
I'm glad this video was on pottery and not crime. I read the thumbnail too slow lol
Ha ha, yes I suppose that could be interpreted differently.
Have you ever looked up the process of rust bluing that's used for firearms? Is it possible that some of the pots were fired then intentionally boiled to promote turning the red pigment black?
I thought that bluing required oil, is that right? Oil was pretty scarce in the ancient Southwest.
@@AncientPottery The first part of the process I was taught had the first step be de-greasing the metal. Then we used dilute nitric acid and peroxide to create rust on a steel surface. Once the rust was there, all we had to do was put it in boiling waster and repeat the process until we got the color we wanted. It seems logical, to me at least, that starting with the rust already being there should make it easier, though more paint may need to be added in the process. If you have the resources to experiment a bit, maybe try it on a small tile and see how it works out
Is safe to cook or eat form pottery that has been painted with lead based pigment?
What category does Jemez black on white fall under?
I'm not an expert on New Mexico Pueblo pottery but from my understanding Jemez black on white is made exactly like Anasazi organic painted black on white and is even fired in a smothered pit in the same manner.
@@AncientPottery very interested in recreating the Jemez black on white. There is an artist that has recreated the craft but not so open to teaching. Some info on how to would be great!
@@deeg4379 The information you are looking for can be found in this book amzn.to/3Vne1bX
Really interesting anlaysis. I don't believe not finding trench kilns means anything. When a trench kiln is found it is usually mistaken for some kind of hearth, in Sweden like a prehistoric "cooking pit", "covered with clay" which "explains" the burnt sherds found in them, I myself excavated some of these full of charcoal. They are just not visible to archaeologists as firing pits for pots. But whether in a pit or not, why not cover the fire with earth when it is the hotest? This is believed to be the basic method among archaeologists for making reduced firings and it is how I do it, although sometimes I get really black pots, sometimes almost red ones, I haven't quite sorted it out yet, but it probably has to do with the wind always interfering somehow in northern Sweden's coast. Why would you pull out the pots from the fire, why not let them cool down covered by earth? Tomorrow I'll do a great fire with some of my pupils using the same method, and another one Tuesday, as I teach already Prehistoric pottery methods to local people interested, it's really fun. I'm sure you'll get it right.
Why pull and smother? Because it is easiest to smother a bowl sitting face down on the ground. Less work and less earth moved. Parsimony.
Maybe you can help me out I'm new to pottery. I'm in the land of the Caddo Indian I sourced some clay from the Ouachita River it is dark grey I started processing it today. I'm trying the wet method since I ended up with gravel mixed in is there a better way
The clay I have is wet thick and very sticky it doesn't like to dissolve even in clean water
have you tried mixing it with a drill? Maybe try drying it out first and grinding it up
Andy, so what country were you born in or did you mean state?
What are you talking about? Did I say I was born in another country or something?
@@AncientPottery yes around 21:28 mark you said you grew up in a country rich and something. "Self taught" part
@@nickb8791 Oh! “A country” meaning an area, a region, you know like you might say “that’s awful pretty country” or “this is cowboy country”. I grew up in Sierra Vista, Arizona.
@@AncientPottery ohhhhhhhh LOL. Sorry. Yeah I'm born and raised upstate NY
So sad looting was so common back then. All that lost history stolen to probably collect dust in some old geezers attic.
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