Horizontal Loop Antenna Experiments
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2017
- This video describes my experiments with a new antenna for me, the horizontal loop a.k.a. sky loop antenna. We talk about the design and installation, and strengths of this antenna in terms of low noise. There are some examples of this antenna in action in comparison to dipoles.
For more information go to the Mount Evelyn DX Report: www.medxr.blogspot.com.au
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About 10 years ago I attended a Club meeting where the presenter was W7FB Dave Fisher. The topic was full wavelength
horizontal loop antenna. Dave wrote an article in one of the ARRL antenna books about the Skyloop or Skywire antenna.
He was previously W0MHS when he authored the article. I erected one soon after. I then had the room for a 160M loop.
It was not nearly as nice a shape as yours. But did it ever perform!! I regret that we moved and it had to come down.
LOW NOISE was an understatement. It was fantastic. I remember being able to say that the other station was zero on my S meter but they were armchair copy. I wonder why they aren't up in every Amateurs garden. Mine
was only at 8 meters but I was working DX all the time.
w0fen
Hi Robin. Thanks for your comments. All my antennas are down this week while the tree lopping man paid us a visit. Going up in the air soon is a 160m loop such as you mentioned. I think it will be a wriggly affair to make the full 160m length fit the property. Should be interesting to see how it goes. Thanks again for taking the time to watch the video. Rob VK3BVW
P.S. I enjoyed reading your transmitter stories on QRZ.com! :-)
HI!! I for got to say mine was sorta in the shape of Orion. Not the best but what I could get up with
the trees I had. I now have about 0.7 Acre now. Lesson learned... NEVER put up a loop over your
own house. The RF gets into everything. Moving it to back yard and maybe making it a 40M loop.
The 160m loop was amazing on 40M.
@@rcelectronicsllc9400 Agreed! My radio shack is a detached building in the back yard, away from the main house. Helps heaps with the noise factor!
Really enjoyed the video. No annoying music, well lit, very informative. I am KF2MS from Norway Maine.. I have a huge yard.. with plenty of trees that border the yard along with a fence lining the back of the yard. This antenna, in the rectangular form would suffice quite nicely for me.
Thanks so much, Lee. Good luck with your antenna experimentations.
Nice video! I’m in the process of designing and building a horizontal loop for 75 meters. Best of 73! From Mississippi, USA
Good luck with the antenna construction, Josh!
I have had one with 500 feet total for the last ten years after my 50 tower and KLM Kt-34 beam was blown down in a storm. I use it for transmitting also. Good reports up to 5K miles. You have a Lovely yard. Peace and Happiness to you.
Rob:
I love my 40 meter full-wave loop antenna that I made many years ago.
True the noise floor is greatly reduced as I have experimented at many locations while on vacation.
I use the 450 ohm ladder line going into a MFJ 300 watt tuner.
One thing I have noticed that I get some gain from the antenna while being on higher bands (20, 15 and 10 meters etc) than just on 40 meters.
One time, I worked a pile-up and got through to the South Pole on the first call. The antenna location was this antenna just thrown up in the trees, nothing special. My QTH is Portland, Oregon (CN85ql) and I was shocked to say the least using 100 watts on 20 meters.
When on vacation, I always take the full-wave loop with extra floating insulators so that I attach the loops to any number of trees while trying to make the antenna form a circle.
I have worked the world on my loop and it was cheap to make. I would put my loop against other dipole or vertical and win out for lower noise floor.
I am a true believer for loop antennas and have used it many times while running QRP with great results.
I consider the loop antenna my secret weapon during Field Day in June. Others feel it is it a inferior antenna thinking the signal just goes vertical...no, I have worked the world with it on both high power and my personal preference QRP.
Thanks for the great video! Looking forward in seeing your next video.
73!
Kurt Warner - KA7ZDD, Milwaukie, Oregon (suburb of Portland)
(Good on QRZ.com)
Hi Kurt! A fabulous story there. Great to hear that someone else is enjoying the benefits of the loop antenna. I must redo my balun so it can transmit on higher power. It's an old one made with thin wire intended for receiving only. However, on more than one occasion I have pumped a 40w full carrier FT8 signal through it in error and it has survived just fine. Like you, I have also found that it tunes up easily on a number of bands, even though I am not using ladder line. So it seems that it is a very forgiving antenna. Thanks for checking out the video, "Zippity-Doo-Dah"! ;-) 73, Rob VK3BVW (also good on QRZ).
Excellent comparison of the antennas. I've read that to the degree that you can "round" the horizontal loop to open more central square footage you can also improve your Rx and tx coverage with less RFI.
Impressive difference between the different antennas! Enjoyed the video, it has flung an urge upon me to build a horizontal loop at my station. Thanks
Glad to hear you enjoyed the video. If you have the real estate, then a horizontal loop is certainly worth some experimentation. Good luck! Rob VK3BVW
Great video👍 A T2FD was the lowest noise antenna I've had, especially when i used a long wire underneath it as its earth
What a great video comparison between antennas I’ve got enough room out here in the country to try to put up a triangle super loop on 160. 73’s KE5MUG
I have had a 80 meter horizontal loop up just 20 feet for the past ten years. Does not require any work. I have it corner fed with and four to one balun and 50 ohm coax.
Extremely interesting video!
As always another great video. I am a SWL of 40 years and I find horizontal loops to be quieter. I prefer to use a 9-1 balun as they appear to work better across the complete shortwave spectrum. Thanks again and good luck with your experiment. Mike
That's interesting, Mike. I suspect that the variations between 9:1 and 4:1 (or indeed I read somewhere that someone was using 12:1!) has much to do with the antenna shape, height and surrounding objects. Impedances can vary for a multitude of reasons, can't they? If I could get my hands on a proper antenna analyzer, I could see what was going on in my particular situation. Still, much more experimentation to do, which of course, is fun! It's nice to have the time to play with these things when retired! ;-) All the best, Mike.
Very good video. I would like to add my comments to this. My experience with these kinds of loops is, they are very hard to beat. If you have the yard (space) for a single HF antenna for all bands, this would basically be it. Ideally a full wave 160 meter version. The shape is not critical. One major change I would make is to feed the loop with ladder line. This is actually very easy to make yourself and you can find many videos that explain the various ways to make it. My ladder line is made using electric fence plastic insulators and 12 gauge coated copper and UV resistant wire ties. Many hams have heard you can't bring ladder line into the shack. I'm here to tell you that you can. I run 1500 watts and my antenna tuner has binding posts for ladder line. If you don't want to purchase a tuner with ladder line posts on it, I would run the ladder line into the shack or just outside it, and get a balun with a very short piece of coax to connect to the rig or tuner. Remember, coax is a good choice for resonant antennas, but if you want to use 1 antenna on all bands, the losses that occur in coax for the non resonant regions are very high. Ladder line is pretty much lossless in the same circumstance. Even a single dipole fed with ladder line is a better choice to make it a good all band antenna. My 2 cents.
Thanks for your excellent observations. As I mentioned in the video, I had not prepared any ladder line and only had coax on hand. My intention with this one was to use it primarily as a receiving antenna. But as you say, using LL would work much better as an all-round tunable antenna. After the video, I did upgrade the balun to one that could handle some transmitting power. It tuned up on 30m pretty well, but struggled on most of the other bands. Using LL would allow the antenna to work much better on transmit across the range. Unfortunately, where the antenna is located running down across the creek gully, it struggles to get out due to sloping landmasses surrounding it. If I could locate it on higher ground or get it up higher, I'd have a better chance of getting a stronger signal out. However, it works well as a low-noise receive antenna at this time. Thanks for your input, Ricardo! 73, Rob VK3BVW
Wow! Very interesting. Thanks, Ricardo.
Thanks, Rob! Very useful video.
Hi Rob, I have just watched your very comprehensive review of the Loop Ant. thankyou for spreading the word about Loops. I have been spoiled, I built a 160m Delta loop here at my QTH 24 yrs ago and have never looked back, it's the only HF ant I have at the moment fed with open wire 90mm wide into the shack and tune my FT991 with the MFJ989D, works well on 160-10m very low noise. Wayne VK2DWP.
Hi Wayne. Thanks for the comments, and great to hear from you. This video is around five years old now. The loop collapsed when large branches of gum trees gave way in a storm. The new loop is 100m long, in a similar location, and in more of a square-ish shape and works on most bands. I now also have a vertical delta loop cut for 30m that also works great on 10m. These antennas are really the "bee's knees"! 73, Rob VK3BVW
Beautiful creek Rob, you're definitely blessed. Well done on the video. :) Stephen VK4VSM Gold Coast
Thanks for watching, Stephen! 73!
Rob, I forgot to add, the mag loop is also a home made antenna and I was inspired to make it after reading a article by VK5SFA
Very good! I'm a big fan of loop antennas. So far, I only have small ones for indoor use and they ara really quieter. My QTHs are located in very noisy environments and these antennas allowed me to listen to shortwave again, maybe better than the time there wasn't so many appliances and what not around. Right now, as I'm writing it I'm listening to Radio New Zealand International on 7425kHz and sometime before I was able to pick up Radio Congo on 6115kHz here in downtown Curitiba, a big and busy city. I noticed that when I use it horizontally, it's even quieter and frequencies below 10MHz signals actually come stronger. Signals above 10MHz get weaker so I have to use it as a vertical loop. Fortunately, the afternoon is the best time for listening to these frequencies when there's much less qrm. Recently, Ulysses Galletti PY2UAJ built a horizontal loop antenna in his property to specifically tune in RNZI on 13840kHz and was very successful. Thanks for posting
Fabulous! Thanks for your interesting comments. Best wishes to you and all listeners in Brazil.
Yes, is a very nice quite antenna. I Homebrew one for 11 meters band, with two fishing cans, and works well. The adapter, I use a 75 ohms TV cable. It's fantastic low signals, but the quality of radio is amazing. TKS fer the video.
Thanks for watching, Paulo. Rob VK3BVW
Thank you: Nice property!
Oh, thank you, Jeffrey. And thanks for watching!
These loops work well. I've used one for years. but for best performance you need to optimize the loop by feeding it 450 twin lead (or other balanced feed) and then tuning it at the radio with a balanced tuner. Best one right now but pricey is the Palomar BT-1500 Balanced tuner. (The tuner incorporates a 1:1 BALUN The tuner lets you optimize for the band you're on. I built my own tuner identical to the BT-1500 I built my own balanced tuner by scrounging a couple of roller inductors from old Murch UT2000A transmatchs I got cheap at a hamfest. Used the tuning caps from them also. See the BT-1500 schematic, retty simple to build.
It works great!! My loop is 220 ft long total. It will tune 160M to 6M on this length of wire, but I needed to add some inductance with coils on the antenna and mess around with the twin lead length to get 160 work well. Try to keep this antenna up off the ground to at least 4o+ ft if you can. Less will work with messy lobe patterns, more NVIS. I've worked a lot of worldwide DX on this antenna and it is certainly at least a whole S unit quieter!! Cheap too!!
PS Make sure to use a couple of spark plugs to make a simple lightning arrestor before bringing the twin lead into the shack!! 2 spark plugs mounted in a thick copper plate that is attached to a ground rod. Gap the plugs at about .020-.030" at least if using a linear smp. Twin lead just comes down to the 2 spark plug tips, and then passes on into the shack. Cover the bottom of the plugs by soldering 2 1:diameter copper pipe caps over the spark plug tips to keep out water, bugs and dirt.
I think you mean "Palstar" tuner.
RR Thanks for correctyion update,!
Thanks for interesting posts
I am also using 80 m sky wire.
I use it in all bands using a 4: 1 transformer like you.
Now I am trying 600 Ω open wire.
It is a very good antenna. FBDX！
Thank you for watching the video. Good luck with your 600Ω open wire. Best wishes from VK3.
Enjoyed watching your vid Rob and found it very interesting. Local man made noise is only getting worse and we all strive to avoid this problem. I am currently experimenting with a magnetic loop antenna and comparing the RX performance to a 8m tall vertical. So far the mag loop has been performing extremely well. By using the WSPR software and different receivers for each antenna the mag loop is spotting more stations so far on the 40m band.
Thanks again and will wait to see the results of your next antenna experiment.
73
Very cool, Joe! Thanks for your interesting comments. I'm really glad you are having some success with your antenna system. Best 73 to you!
Thanks for the video. New subscriber here. I enjoy learning about antennas and one day I might get my license to transmit on one of those fine instruments.
Thanks for watching the video and subscribing, Brent. Have fun with your antennas! - Rob
I run a full size G5RV folded into a vertical delta loop and soldered at the ends for listening and specific for 20 metres QsO's. Best thing I ever did with the G5.
Wow! That sounds really interesting! Food for thought there! Thanks. Rob - VK3BVW
RFI filter 120/220V 30A - have several of them they filter out a lot of the Line Noise on my AC Power. There old school came out of the old Main Frames Computer (DEC PDP-10 KI) Your IBM 360/370 type of computer
Boy that end fed antenna sucks. I have had a horizontal loop for transmitting and receiving for the last 25 years. Just Love it. No maintenance required. You live in a wonderful place and must chare it with others as we all do. Thanks so much for the information. Many never try a loop. Peace and Happiness to you. WB7ORB
Thanks for your comment, Tim. You are right about the "no maintenance" aspect of the horizontal loop. The only time this one came down was because a large gum tree fell over and took it out! It has now been replaced with a 100m long square-ish version that covers so many bands, virtually an all-bander! I also now have a vertical delta loop which is full-wave on 30m - hums along on 30/15/12 and 10 very nicely! Cheers, mate. Rob VK3BVW
I recently tried to use the aluminum gutter on the front of my house. I was surprised at how well it works with my Kaito KA 1103. I live in a pretty remote location, but I have one neighbor very close and their various electronics activities don`t seem to have much of an impact. Thanks, KC3BXZ Joe
Cheers, Joe. I've never tried the gutter....I might load it up one day! Best 73 mate, Rob VK3BVW
Is your shack's earthing system embedded in the creek?
What size wire you using
Thanks Rob!
Thanks for watching, Dino! Best 73.
Beautiful setup . . I’m jealous of all those amazing trees ! Do you think the trees however might be earring up some of your signal strength ? Thanks for posting.
John Peterson - If transmitting, then yes the trees can be a problem. However, this is currently a receive-only antenna, so not an issue. Thanks for checking out the video.
Excellent and informative video! In 2 days I am putting up my first horizontal loop. Because of where I live, I will be experimenting with putting it in the attic first. Also I wanted to say that you have a beautiful slice of heaven in your back yard. I’d love to have a little creek running through my property! Thank you for the interesting vid!
Thanks for your kind comments, Donald. Best of luck with your antenna experiments. Rob
I really enjoyed your video Rob. Thank you for posting it. You may wish to also consider, in your experiment, the use of ladder line and tuned feeders to resonate the loop on the frequency of choice. From listening to your neighbour's noise, I'm pretty sure that you could eliminate this 100% with a phasing noise-canceller, using one of the other antennas as the noise-sense pickup antenna. Looking forward to Part 2 of the experiment! 73, Steve, VE7SL
Thanks, Steve. In the video, I mentioned that, at this stage, this is just a receiving loop. If I was going to transmit, ladder line and other mods would certainly need to be made. Re. the noise cancelling, I have the MFJ 1026 noise canceller and have experimented with it as you suggested. It's OK with some noises and not others. And if there are a variety of noise sources giving off different wave forms on the listening frequency, then it underperforms. There's also a canceller made by DX Engineering that has been getting rave reviews, but it's hideously expensive. At this stage, I'm also looking at buying a barrow-load of ferrite to see if that helps. Cheers, Rob VK3BVW
FB Rob. I'm sure the ferrites will help a lot as well, especially if your neighbour will allow you to put a few over his power cords too. I see what you mean about the DXE noise canceller price...wow! Perhaps some RFI line filters would also help, on your neighbour's end especially so that the crud can be quenched before it hits the power lines and gets re-radiated.
You may have seen these already but I did a couple of blogs on noise cancelling with one blog comparing the MFJ with the Timewave:
ve7sl.blogspot.ca/2017/05/mfj-1026-noise-canceller-tests-at-va7mm.html
ve7sl.blogspot.ca/2017/07/mfj-timewave-noise-canceller-shootout.html
The nasty noise heard in the videos is from a grow-op just down the street from Mark's place...there seem to be more and more of these showing up everywhere unfortunately.
You have a wonderful-looking place there BTW and your videos are exceptionally well done. I think you must have been in the broadcast industry!
Thanks for your really interesting response, Steve. Yes, I had already seen one of your blog posts, but not the other one. Nice work there! I think the issue here relates to a variety of different noise sources, all with different wave forms. My 1026 can't seem to cope with multiple types of noise at the same time. The other thing is that I tend to move across the shortwave spectrum quite quickly, constantly tuning and checking different frequencies on different bands in a sort of "search and destroy" or "hunt and peck" method! ;-) That makes it difficult to use the 1026 because of the need to constantly retune it for maximum effect on each frequency.
Re. the videos - No, not in the broadcast industry, but a musician and educator. And in retirement, an active and passionate photographer. So I very much enjoy the video making process. I'm just using the Apple iMovie desktop app, a Rode video mic, a Nikon D800 camera, and sometimes the iPhone 6+ camera. And a very basic lighting setup (which still needs work). All good fun. And it helps to have some time on my hands!! Cheers, mate. Rob
Thanks Rob thanks for the nice video. I've just moved from a country setting with a six acre field where my nearest neighbours were sheep. I've now moved to a new location overlooking a university town with around 16,000-18,000 inhabitants, all with lots of gadgets. The first thing that hit me in the new location was the QRM on 80m. Fortunately I've got 1/3rd of an acre at the side of the house and I think I might just have to have a play with a loop. I've used a vertical quad on 20m in the past and that always kept the QRM down but now my preferred band now is 80m and my old ears surfer from 5 an 9 tinnitus at the best of times so a loop could be just the ticket!! Thanks again . . .Andy GWØJXM
Hi Andy. I am all too familiar with the tinnitus problem, unfortunately, hihi. My loop came down a few months back when a large gum tree collapsed on part of it. The lumberjack ;-) has since been through and I'm toying with the idea of a replacement 80 or even 160m loop (160 will be a squeeze!). Anyway, good luck with your 80m version. I hope it goes well for you. 73, Rob VK3BVW
Cheers Rob, the reality is that I have so many options I don't know what to play with first. I also want to have a go at an off-centre-fed-dipole with multi band coverage.I'm a bit concerned about lightning as I'm on top of a hill 60 metres above sea level a about 120 metres back from the coast and just about the highest thing around for quite some distance. When I designed the house I included 4 lightning conductors, the old building that I knocked down had a lightning conductor and there have been strikes up and down the coast so I'm busy thinking more about earths than aerials at the moment!! Got to say those trees of yours are something special, not everyone has got a bunch of them in the back yard to play with.Enjoy every day. 73 Andy GWØJXM
Wonder wether your trees won't eat up most of the EM field?
Maybe a phasing arrangement for your antenna to null out interference?
Just came in and caught another of your videos, on the loop. I had a 160 meter band loop feed with 450 ohm open lead. Hope to get it back up, soon as it worked great 160 - 10. Thanks for the A/B show and tell. The weather is to good to stay in doors cul. 73 Leo k
Hi Leo. Thanks for stopping by and checking out the video. WOW! A 160m loop - you must have some space in your backyard!! Great stuff!. 73 mate. Rob VK3BVW
Such insulators should be installed so that they're in compression, not in tension. In other words, the routing of the wire and support rope should be intersecting, with the insulator center in-between and being compressed (not stretched). Perhaps you'll have to look up an image.
Yes, correct. I threw this old antenna up in a bit of a hurry and did not take enough due care with threading the insulators. That antenna has been gone quite a while now (brought down by a falling gum tree) and replaced with an even longer (100m) loop in a more square-ish shape with the correct installation of the insulators. Thanks.
I'm about to start on my loop project as I now see no other option in my particular situation!
Hi rod i put up a delta loop sky loop horizontal 160m long 40 feet up on 4 poles ,seems still a bit noisy but not as good as my inverted v on 40m but on 10 15 20 it kicks butt big time i was very surprised also its very directional at a perfect sq in free space out in a field. 4to1 balun fed from antenna with l line 450 short coax lmr 400 back to shack still think the inverted v beats it on 40 m band less noise bigger gain better on line reports with the inverted v .
Thanks for sharing the results of your experiments, Alan. Best of luck with it, Rob VK3BVW
Hi Rob. Very good video on your Skyloop antenna. Thank you. I did notice that the egg insulators that you used are not being used correctly. You need to flip them around so that if the egg insulator breaks, the wire antenna does not fall to the ground because the support cord will be looped through the wire antenna loop. That's what the grooves in the egg insulator are for. Its a pretty neat design. For that reason, I always prefer egg insulators for wire antennas; especially when I lived in Minnesota with lots of heavy snow. WB0CGF - Paul in Florida.
Hi Paul. Yep. You are correct. They were around the wrong way when I installed it four years ago. That antenna has now come down....by force of nature....when a huge gum tree fell on it! :-) A bigger 100m long and more square-ish shape antenna now replaces it. With the insulators correctly installed this time. :-) Good antennas, the loops. I have also added a vertical Delta loop which is full wave on 30m and goes like the clappers! Thanks for checking out the video, cheers, mate. Rob VK3BVW
@@RobVK3BVW Ouch! I'm sorry to hear about nature taking down your antenna. Oh well, another opportunity to improve upon and existing antenna. :-) After reading, listening, and watching about the design of the Skyloop and its performance, I am excited to try a horizontal loop antenna myself; which I plane to put up this weekend. Thank you again for sharing your experience. 73s
@@paulkoppie2657 Good luck with it, Paul.
Hi Rob very nice video on skyloop. I have mine also connected to a Palstar auto tuner and it is working good. Btw, what bideo camera and setting are you using? Dindo DU1UD
Hi Dindo, I use two video cameras in this video. In the shack, I use a Nikon D800 and for the shots of the antenna outdoors I used an iPhone 6S+. The setting is 1080p. Editing was done on the latest version of iMovie for Mac. Best 73, Rob VK3BVW
I've got plenty of space and I'm considering a 160m double wave loop. I'm in a bit of a valley with high terrain immediately to the east and a stoney ridge to the west that is less steep and somewhat lower. The valley is more open to the north and south and all the terrain is heavily wooded.
I'm going to feed it with ladder line and because of all the high terrain (and I just installed a 15m mast for TV) I don't think the loop will be any lower than about 15m. There are many tall trees that make my 15m mast look unimpressive.
Like you I read many articles on the sky/horizontal loop and found double wave seems the way to go due to lower takeoff angle.
I'm in 2 minds as to whether to shelve the 160m double wave part since most 160m is vertically polarized (and part of me thinks what's the point) and go 80m double wave which would be 160m single wave anyhow or just do the full 160m double wave.
I'm thinking an isoceles triangle would be good and the article I read suggests feeding it at the apex in such an arrangement gives some directional aspect to the antenna in modelling at least. But at the initial location it would not be feasable to feed it at the apex (I'm living in a caravan at a different location on the property while the house is being built). At the caravan site I have a nice cleared river flat that will easily accomodate 1100' wire.
I do want to use the loop for TX and its transmit performance is important but my main interest in amateur radio is mostly listening on various pieces of equipment. I have a Kenwood R5000 with VHF board and every filter and option box ticked. It is a great receiver but frustrating to use and I have a Yaesu FT1000MP with all filters installed which is great to use but doesn't cover VHF and isn't as quiet as the Kenwood. For example, the Kenwood is almost deaf to the power supply noise of my plasma TV and the Yaesu isn't too bad but it takes plenty of tweaking to get that noise blanked out and it effects the sensitivity.
I'm convinced double wave is best for multiband loop antennas.
Wow I wish I had that space and trees to boot!
Seems to be a bit of confusion here. Rob, I made these tests with skyloop and other related antennae maybe 15 years ago. Even made one with a autotuner after a specific length of 450 Ohm ladder line so could transmit on it. As in your video, it did make reception more quiet, but not enough. This said, an end fed wire is the worst of all receive antennas for noise. I got rid of them a long number of years ago. Now, a transmit antenna is mostly not the best receive antenna. It will radiate your power well, if constructed well, but reception is not optimal. The last 8 years I always separate things by using a separate dedicated receiva antenna with an autoswitch, external or internal, swapping antennas. The next thing is that you install the receive antenna at the most quiet place on yur property and using a, in my case, high quality active loop. This loop is oriented so its deaf side is pointing to the qrm direction, so it eliminates even more noise. NEVER mount a active loop in a horizontal plane as Mike suggested. Also mount it about 3 to 5 meters up on a rotor so you can tune to get the most signal from the wanted transmitter and make a compromise with the local noise. I hope this sounds logical. Good luck!
Thanks for your comments, Ron. I do very little transmitting these days, so as I mentioned in this video, the main purpose of this loop was an experimental ant for receiving. I would build it somewhat differently if transmitting. Your observation of using two separate antennas for transmitting and receiving is a very good strategy. Cheers, Rob
What a difference! I have a delta loop antenna whose perimeter is about half of yours. I tested it as a vertical loop and it worked well. So I think I'm going to lift over the roof as such. A friend of mine, Jorge Freitas, you may know, has the same delta loop model as mine and he chose to install it as a skyloop for the same reasons as you did, but he was not very much satisfied the results. Could it be that as a skyloop antenna it should have a larger perimeter?
Hi Julio. I think that the more wire you can get in the air the better. It also depends on which bands you want to listen to, as well. And, of course, any antenna which is close to a manmade electrical noise source will still be a problem. Perhaps the 4-sided loop is better than the 3-sided delta loop? Who knows? :-) Best to experiment and see if there is a difference. If you can keep the old antenna in the air as well as the new antenna, then it is useful to make a comparison between the two antennas. Good luck with your research on antennas. Rob VK3BVW
i have an 80 meter loop ladder line fed to a balun design 1:1 balun up horizontal at 70 feet, hears excellent and super quiet especially being in the country. On 40 meters i work austraila and mid east 100 watts with no problem, loops have generally 3 dbd gain over a dipole and a little more quiet but not by much over my 80m doublet.
Thanks for your observations, Anthony. Good stuff! 73, Rob VK3BVW
Great test...73!
Thanks, Alf. All the best my friend!
How do you know how long the ladder line should be. Does it matter. For my scenario- it will be about 35-40 ft and will pass under a window where it will be connected to a 4:1 LDG balun. There will be about 35ft of Rg8x coax before it then connects to the tranceiver. Any specific minimum length the loop wire should be. Can you also run the horizontal loop in a triangular pattern.
Davey, if you are using ladder line, then the length is not going to matter much at all. This is a pretty broadbanded antenna, so yes, the length of the ladderline will have some bearing on resonant frequencies. Experiment to see what works best in your situation. On the lower frequencies, the length of the loop will be a function of which bands you want to operate on. e.g. If using the 80m ham band, then cut the loop for one full wavelength i.e. 80m long. Adding ladderline will need to be taken into account, of course. A triangular shaped antenna is called a delta loop, and yes, they work well, too, in both a vertical and horizontal layout. I currently have a delta for 30m which also works great on 15 and 10m. I hope that helps. Cheers, Rob VK3BVW
Cool
enjoyed the video rob 73
Hi Rob, I'm thinking of a loop for transmit and receive. The shape of yours would be a similar fit for here, so your comments were very useful ....and 3 years on I hope all is going well with the LNNs! 73 G6XiB.
I have played around with horizontal loops a bit. I need to put up another one. Full wave loops will work on their even harmonics. So a 40 meter loop will also work on 20 and 10. Even if I intended the loop to be primarily for RX; I would want to be able to TX with it. I really need to see about getting something up for 40 and 20. Right now for HF all I have up is my A99 that works 10, 11, 15, and 20 with a tuner.
73
Jennifer
KK6FVP
Thanks for your comments, Jennifer. Good luck with your loop experiments. Best 73, Rob VK3BVW
Appreciate some input on the following:
Any updates on your opinion and experience with this antenna? We have an acre, and I have been using two Chameleon Emocmm III antennas. These particular endfeds have done pretty well. One runs N/S orientation for east west propagation, and the second E/W orientation for north south propagation. Both are Inverted L configuration and the vertical portion is at 32’. Im considering replacing these with one large loop. My primary use for HF is standard ragchew nets, sometimes contact nets, and nearly always on 20/40/80m bands.
73....K5JRX
Hi Jay-Rus. Since that video was made, that horizontal loop collapsed under the weight of a falling gum tree! :-) A new longer loop is now in the air, 100 meters long and in a more square-ish shape. Why 100m long? Well, I just wanted to get as much wire in the air as I could and 100m was the entire reel. Just didn't have enough space for the full 160m length. Doh! Also added was a balun capable of transmission to 500w and new coax (although you can also use open wire line if you wish). With the internal tuner, it fires up on 30 - 6 meters. With the external tuner and some fiddling, it tunes up on 40 and 80. I'm very happy with it. Recently, I also added a vertical delta loop cut for 30m, which also resonates quite well on 15, 12, 10 and 6m. If you can, I suggest you keep the end-fed ants up and a horizontal loop. Then compare between the three. Good luck. Rob VK3BVW
interesting looks to me the dipole looses s units, the end fed gains s units but its all noise, and the horizontal is in between the two but legible and can hear the music and singing.
The loop certainly is less noisy. If the signal is also down a bit, I'd still rather listen to a clear signal without the noise. Thanks for watching, Mike.
Hi Rob, this is the second time I watched this video. I have been running loops for 30 years. With that being said you do not have to have it with 4 corners.
I have mine in a Delta Loop shape and feed it at the top with a 4:1 Balun. Apex is at 45ft or 13.75 meters. The bottom two corners are 20-25 ft. above the ground and all are very broad banded antennas.
I have them for 40m 60m 80m and 160m. I have about 20234.28 Square Meters here to use though. So lucky in that respect I guess.
73's
de W4DRA
Dave
Dunnellon, Florida
Hi Dave, and thanks for watching the video TWICE! :-) Yes, of course, there is the delta loop with three sides. And if one wanted to dabble with antenna logistics, engineering and execution, you can have loops of more than four sides. I guess the possibilities are endless and so are the variations in backyard sizes and shapes.....oh, and in XYL approvals, too! ;-) I checked out your QRZ page and your very impressive setup there. Most of us would kill for something like that! Thanks again, Dave. 73, Rob VK3BVW
Dave hi Dave. I’ve made a delta and 2 ends will be high and one end will be lower. Where should I feed this antenna with the 4:1 ? I would like to shoot northeast for some dx as well. Someone told me to feed in the southwest corner of the delta?? I’m good on qrz if you wanna help
I using no balun ,but a balanced Balance tuner and 450 Ohm ladder line I can tune on evry band for the best signal 73,
I have almost precisely the same arrangement, rectangular, 60 metres long. Hot Tip, if the antenna is less than halfwave high the impedance drops, so try a 1:1 Balun, halfwave and above in height use the 4:1. Also loops are resonant on every harmonic, unlike dipoles that resonate every other harmonic 73 de GØUSL
Thanks for your comments, Mark. Much appreciated. 73, Rob VK3BVW
@@RobVK3BVW My pleasure Rob, I have been experimenting with loops for some time. I am in two minds whether to try to extend the loop for 80metres (some imagination required there!) Or to shorten in for 40metres and take the vertical option for 80.
Impressive improvement in noise floor, I have been curious about experimenting with a sky loop in comparison to my T2FD (which also has a lower noise floor than my right angle random wire antenna).
I had a T2FD in the air many years ago and it worked OK. Got pretty ungainly to hoist in the air when built for the low bands. I think that the loop would have beat the T2FD for lower noise floor. But perhaps I should make another T2FD and test it. Or perhaps I wait for your video comparison tests!! ;-)
Since I can't post pictures? on here, my sky wire 80 meter loop is 275ft long, my house on a hill, top 2 corners are 28' and 20', hill drops 20', bottom corners are about 35; each. My best swr was 3.749. My 80 meter dipole is at 40' over the same slope. My loop outperforms the dipole by 3 db, and is quieter. I use 26' of rg58u, and the rest is rg8..Nice video..
Cool, Steve! Great to hear of your success with the loop. Some guys use the loop as the receiving ant and another ant with low swr for transmitting, which is an easy thing to do these days with many transceivers having a separate receive ant terminal. Thanks for your comments. Good luck. Rob VK3BVW
Hello Rob
I run from a balcony apartment in central London and have also an 80 metre sky loop AND a top band Windom.
I see Zero difference in noise between the two antennas.. in fact the extremely respected W8JI disputes this lower noise floor on horizontal loops.
In my QTH and as of writing this I wish I could be in agreement with what I’ve seen on your experience. Alas I can’t and folks should be aware that this is not a magic cure for noise...
Many thanks
Mark
Hi Mark, Sorry to hear that you have had no luck with your horizontal loop. In the video, I don't think I said the loop was a "magic cure", but that my experience indicated it helped me in the noise department. Since I made that video in 2017, I have erected another loop 100 metres long and is more of a square shape. Recently, I added a vertical delta loop for 30 metres. Both antennas continue to perform well and are resonant on multiple bands (especially the 100m long loop). I can imagine that apartment living in central London is a hard ask for ANY antenna! Perhaps you could check to see if much of the noise is coming from within your own apartment or other apartments close by. No antenna will reduce noise if the noise is emanating from switchmode power supplies and such within the home. The usual tests of unplugging and replugging household devices one at a time can tell you much about what is going on. But this is a subject for another video. ;-) Best wishes, Rob VK3BVW
Dear Rob,
I wasn’t doubting your findings at your QTH OM, far from it..
What I was trying to get across is that I’m aware that quite obviously my QTH is a QRM nightmare, but the loop was never as good as the doublet re noise on A/B switching.
So I wasn’t pointing out the problems of my QRM nightmare QTH but that the antenna that is supposed to be quieter on RX was never realised here at mine, and quite obviously it’s a good test (my QTH) for any noise suppression antenna.
@@markfeltham9456 No problems at all, Mark. All understood. Good luck with the noise reductions, my friend. Rob.
Hi am building a 20m full wavelength horizontal loop in loft to use 10-20m, it will be 10 meters above ground, will it work on 20m?
Derek, if you are building a full-wave loop that is 20m (approx 65.6 feet) long, then yes it should load up on 20m! Having said that, it will also depend on the environment within which the antenna is located. Enclosed in a loft MAY impose some transmission or reception limitations. But you should try it anyway. Good luck. Rob VK3BVW
great video! does it need to be a loop? if i hang it i the trees i have available it will not loop back.
Matt, if it doesn't rejoin at the balun (as in the video), then it's not a loop. It's something else....long wire, random length wire, end-fed antenna, etc? Since doing this video, I now have a new loop which is more of a square-ish shape rather than the rectangle in this video version. - Rob VK3BVW
@@RobVK3BVW thank you. looking to get a CHA sky loop and wondering if i’ll have an issue with not being able to loop it back. i guess it will just be a large end fed.
@@TheAllred13 The value of the loop design is that it can reduce the severity of local noise. If there was a way of retaining the loop concept at your installation I think you would see an advantage. The shape of the loop doesn't appear to be too critical. Good luck.
@@RobVK3BVW thank you sir, i appreciate it
i agree with mr smith.73
The loop seems to be the best receive S/N ratio - the end fed seems to be the worst (by far).
How do you keep the loop tensioned with each tree moving in different directions on a windy day?
Thanks! 73! VE3GHP
G'day, Garry! To avoid moving tree limbs, I anchor the wire to tree trunks - They don't move very much. 🙂 This video is around five years old now. The loop collapsed when large branches of gum trees gave way in a storm. I have a new loop now which is 100m long, in a similar location, and in more of a square-ish shape and works on most bands. I now also have a vertical delta loop cut for 30m that also works great on 10m. These antennas are really the "bee's knees"! 73, Rob VK3BVW
@@RobVK3BVW G'Day Rob - Thanks for your reply! - I also hope to have ~100m length in what will be four or five sided loop using trees and fed at my 15m tower.
I'm not wuite sure how I will deal with each tree moving in a different direction at the same time - I'm thinking it will involve some pulleys and weights though.
I'll be feeding it with open wire. - I gave a 30m doublet now, and I'm very pleased with it.
Are you still liking the 3000 Yaesu ? Debating on it or the 7300
Absolutely! I've had the 3K since Dec 2014 and it hasn't given me a scrap of bother over that time. Once you get used to the menus, it's easy to operate (but, hey, that's the same for all the different brands of rig these days!). Very sensitive receiver and transmitter works great. Using it a lot on FT8 at the moment.
Hi Rob, Vince here from South Africa. I am interested in a horizontal loop for Mediumwave rx. Our property is 42mx100m but unfortunately has no high trees anywhere. Any suggestions?
G'day, Vince! For general mediumwave reception, I wouldn't worry too much about trying to get height into your antenna. The main factors are going to be the length and locating it away from any potential manmade noise sources. Since this video was made four years ago, I have replaced that antenna with one that is 100m long and in more of a square-ish shape. It works well on mediumwave, picking up plenty of signals. If you can get some poles in that are, say, more than 2m above ground (so that you don't decapitate people), that that would be a great start. As with all antenna work, experimentation is the name of the game. Good luck, my friend! Rob VK3BVW
@@RobVK3BVW hey mate, g'day to you too. Thanks for the response. At present i have two delta loops which are between 40 and 60m in circumference, fed at the middle of the bottom horizontal wire thru a balun. They are quite directional and definitely quieter than a long wire. I'm only 3km away from a local MW txer though, which does cause some overloading issues, even on my Drake R8A. These loops are very close to the house. So i was thinking of a 40x60m horizontal loop running on top of a fence around the perimeter of the property. The fence is a steel diamond mesh style one though, which i think could in itself be an antenna for all sorts of local QRN. I want all my antennas to be bidirectional to receive US AMDX to the north west and Aussie MWDX 'over the shoulder'. As you say its probably best to experiment. A mini rhombic or loop-on-ground antenna are definitely do-able.
@@vincentstevens5048 Go for it! If that doesn't work, you can try some other design.
What a fascinating video, here in the UK we have been let down by our regulator Ofcom who will not enforce the EMC regulations and noise has become dreadful. Of course we don't have the space you guys do so I am wondering if a balanced loop such as the Wellbrook ALA1530 mounted horizontally would display the same noise reduction??? Do we know the theory behind why the horizontal loop hears less noise?
Mike, same EMC issues here as well. So much Asian stuff imported without proper filtering and with poor circuit design - it's cheap, but it comes at a price - RF pollution! I've had no experience with the Wellbrook (too expensive to buy and ship to Australia), so I can't really comment on a comparison. More research needs to be done! Cheers, mate!
Hiya Rob, ok I will do that research and report back :) Keep an eye on my channel, I have used the ALA1530 over many years but recently swapped to a MiniWhip which is great for LF but getting swamped on HF
A few months ago I was curious about how my ALA1530LNP would perform when mounted horizontally. I also have a ALA1530s+ which I kept oriented vertically. In my experiments I switched between the two. Indeed, noise levels dropped even further with the ALA1530LNP than what this Wellbrook loop normally offers. Unfortunately, with its omni-directional pickup in this orientation, there was no directionality at all on medium wave or lower HF. I decided to return the ALA1530LNP to its normal orientation, but I plan to remount it on an antenna rotor like I used before. Perhaps I'll try a skywave loop again, but it is a big hassle to route the wire through the dense foliage in the green belt (forested area) behlnd my house.
Thanks for your interesting comments. I guess it depends on how bad the noise is versus the ability to have directionality in your antenna. Good luck with your antenna experiments! Rob VK3BVW
Thanks for this video Rob , I am SWL from Algeria ( 7X1001SWL -Callsign 7X2GK and follow all your posts and videos, thank you for the great work, Best 73 de 7X2GK
Hi Kamel, thanks for stopping by and checking out the videos. Hope to work you on the air one day. 73, Rob VK3BVW
Works have been good to tune to a dead spot on the band to show noise reduction
Does the horizontal loop need to be in a square (4 equal sides), or could I use the same length wire configured in a triangle (3 equal sides)?
The shape of the loop appears to be quite forgiving. As you saw from this video, the shape I used was rectangular. Since that video was made, I now have another loop that has more of a square-ish shape. A three-sided loop would be called a Delta Loop and can be either vertical (depending on which band you cut it for) or horizontal. I recently installed a vertical Delta Loop and that also works really well. I hope this helps you.....
@@RobVK3BVW ....looking at installing in horizontal configuration. So what are your thoughts on length for primarily 20, 40, and 80 meter. I dont DX, but like to QSO with operators from east to west coast. Im in Oklahoma, so Ive got a fairly centralized location. Im on the edge of town, with less rfi than others. As a newer HAM, only licensed in June 2020, then upgraded to Extra by August, I have actually spent a lot of time on my grounding system, reducing possible rfi within the shack, keeping data cables away from coax, and predominantly use DC power over AC. Have some picks of my setup on QRZ. So should I look at a half wave, or is there a great benefit in going to full wave length.
Currently running a chameleon emcomm III oriented E/W in an Inverter L configuration, as well as a second chameleon emcomm III oriented N/S in an inverted L configuration. Height of each approx 32’
Im considering replacing these two with a horizontal loop, but havent made that final decision as of yet. Any input would be appreciated
K5JRX
@@jay-rus4437 A few points to make here, Jay-Rus.
1) Definitely try full-wave horizontal loops.
2) Lengths are, conveniently and approximately 20, 40 and 80m long, :-)....you US guys will have to do the conversions to feet.
3) Try to keep the Emcomm things up so you can do on-air comparisons against the loops
4) WSPR transmissions are GREAT for on-air comparisons. Almost instant feedback via the WSPR.new website
5) It all depends on how much room you have on the property (you haven't given me any idea about space available), but I guess you have some room to spread out these antennas, and
6) Built the 80m full-wave first. You may find that it also resonates on the other bands you want to use. This will possibly give you additional handy lobes off the sides of the loop - an antenna analyzer helps here!
I hope that helps. btw, nice QRZ page! You are way too young to be a grandfather!!! ;-) Cheers, Rob VK3BVW
@@RobVK3BVW ....thanks for the info. We live on an acre, on the edge of town with open field behind us. So enough room to set up.
I feel too young to be a grandfather, but Ive been married for 31 years, didnt have our sons until we were in our mid 20s, and our son is 24 now. Time flies 😁 ....and my QRZ just highlights my OCD. Lol
Agree about the figuring out feet in place of meters. With an engineering background I have NO idea why we all arent on metric. Should have been me on projects dealing with feet....then reading architectural plans with their use of scales....then, if all that wasn’t enough, we had to deal with civil engineering plans in 1/10ths....1/10ths of what? FEET.....what? 1/10ths of feet. Knuckleheads know that 12 inches in a foot seems like a stupid system, so they attempt to somehow merge SAE and metric. Good grief
@@jay-rus4437 :-) All good. Love your last paragraph! All the best, mate! Rob
👍.
Use your IPO on bands below 14mhz. Looks like you have the preamps on which is increasing your noise. 73 Sid MI5UTC
Hi Sid. Yes, of course, you are correct. Switching off the IPO will reduce noise, as will judicious use of the RF gain control. But the purpose of the video was to illustrate that even with the IPO on the amp 2 setting, where noise will be higher and more apparent, the horizontal loop still made a difference in reducing noise in comparison to the other antennas trialled in the video. The FTDX3K has a wonderful receiver, and there are many facilities in it to combat noise. Perhaps I should make a video one day showing some of the ways we can mitigate noise problems using the 3K controls. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video, Sid. Vy 73, Rob VK3BVW
Cheers, KD9NTD
There was a time when you never heard of this. Quiet. Very quiet. We should make a better effort at locating the sources and reporting them. They are interfering with you. Not permitted.
Just spotted how you've wired the antenna through egg insulator at one corner.
Not seen the rest yet. Ah yes... the one at the metal pole as well.
Eggs are fragile and if they break your wires would fall.
The egg is shaped to feed the wire into the hole via a path...same for both wires.(or rope).
That way your egg is subject to compression rather trying to pull it apart AND should it get busted, your wires will support each other and not drop to the ground.
On rx only, you would probably not even notice it if it did break!
Question. Have you tried or is it feasible to put up a loop of whatever dimensions you are forced to use according available space?
eg. My shack is not near a corner (more in the centre of the loop area) so feed would be on a straight stretch AND I have lovely neighbour as well so I might get the OK to make it even bigger over their patch but boy, it would be a odd shape.
Sorry can't draw you a pic about the eggs but the fluting on its shape should tell what I'm
getting at.
Great video.. Million thanks! 73 de G3NBY
G'day Howard! All your comments noted on the eggy insulators. It's a pretty "stress-less" setup here so I suspect that eggs are going to hold up very well. In fact, they are decades old - possibly 30 years? Still going strong.....we make 'em tough out here in VK! ;-) Indeed, since that video was recorded, the wire has stretched somewhat and there's even less tension on the eggs now.
After having done a little research on the loop, I've got a feeling that the shape is probably not that critical. I've seen several DXers with loops that have 5 and 6 supports, the main aim being to try and get as much wire up in the air as possible. Certainly, for receive-only conditions, it doesn't seem to be critical, so in your case, I wouldn't worry too much about the odd shape. For transmitting off one of these things, the build and placement of the feed point probably need to be considered more carefully. Try it and see!! Let me know how it goes for you.
In the last week, I have been getting into the FT8 mode, and enjoying it! I've been using the loop on receive because it's quieter and dipoles for 40 and 80 on transmit. Works well.
Just looked you up on qrz.com - I see you are a muso! Trombonist here. Big band jazz for many years, classical and teaching as well. I don't play professionally anymore due to a dodgy ticker. Always nice to meet another muso/radio enthusiast!! My "About" web page is as robwagner.com.au/styled/About_Rob_Wagner.html. Anyway, thanks for stopping by and checking out the video, Howard. Cheers mate! - Rob VK3BVW
That ceramic insulator in the picture is not being used correctly it is being used in reverse mode its weakest way
Yep, that's correct. It was a temporary string-up before the video was done. I've reinstalled it since. Is that your only feedback? 🙂
I see this is an old video. So my comment is this, the Bose system could have been used to cancel out the noise of added to your audio speakers, that's a possible fix, and I believe a computer software could have been work ed into the Bose system. To cancel out the noise itself. Just my thoughts on this problem.
Quite possibly. But you have to hear a signal, too! The horizontal loop is an antenna that works to pick up signals across multiple bands (a range of frequencies) in one easy-to-build, low-cost antenna system. The lower noise on the loop is a happy side benefit with an antenna of this type. Since this video, I now have a second generation of the antenna at 100m long in a square shape, plus a vertical delta loop at 10 MHz that also exhibits great signal pickup while rejecting noise. Thanks for taking the time to watch the video and comment. Much appreciated. Best wishes from Australia. - Rob VK3BVW
I look you really enjoy doing SWL DX... consider to buy a Collins R 390A completly restored... is amazing how they perform... 73 XE1ZLG
Hi Luis. The Collins R390A is a BIG radio!! Very good for keeping warm in winter, too! HiHi. Best 73 my friend!. Rob VK3BVW
Try open wire feed back to the shack instead of coax , you should see a further improvement
That's why I live in the forest.... Nearest neighbor 450 meters away. Next one. 1km.no qrn,qrm. Sadly today modern homes are full of radiating electrical equipment.. And you will also cause them problems of interference.
bummer good ideas but why cant u TX on it? in title RX only would have been nice..
:-) I can! I have! Tunes up well on 30m quite well and usable on most other bands through an ATU. When first erected, I was using a balun made of light wire designed for reception only. Since making this video nearly two years ago, I have installed a heavy duty balun for transmitting. However, I don't use it for transmitting as my other antennas are much higher and get out better.
Yeah,loop antenna is less qrm
they got some Nasty PLA's in here house, will they not let you swap them out for some Clean ones"
You have a high noise inside ur shack probably due to nasty laptop dc power supply or led lamp etc. get a noise canceller
Mohamad Ibrahim - No. The noise is NOT coming from inside the shack. It is external noise being picked up by the antennas. Tests show that shack equipment is quiet.
Plasma TV
Make a mag loop antenna and you won't get a lot of interference from other's !
Stop telling everyone how RF quite it is in Mt Evelyn 😁
Yes, Ken. It's blissfully quiet here (cough, cough). We wanna keep it a secret, don't we?! ;-) Cheers.