Marshall Gain Comparison - 2204 vs 1987
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- I'm comparing how much you can get out of the standard Marshall JMP 50W Lead (model no 1987) to dito for the hotter Marshall JMP Master Volume 50W (model no 2204).
Gear used in the video:
1973 Marshall JMP 50W lead model no 1987
1977 Marshall JMP Masetr Volume 50W no 2204
1971 Marshall model 1960A 4x12 with G12M25 75Hz Celestion Pulsonic Greenbacks
2008 Gibson Les Paul R9
2xSM57 Close mics
2xBeta57a room and hallway mics
This is how the circuits differ; (100W versions here)
• Marshall Super Lead Vs...
1987 for my ears, tighter low end without flatulence. At a NAMM show I asked Jim Marshall what his favorite was, "50w is still the best". I agree.
I love it when you can see the camera shake. That 1987 just has a little something extra in the mids that I like.
Thanks! 😁
When his camera shakes you know the amp is happy!! 🔊🎸
Both sound great to me. Better to have one of each for tonal variation. Great stuff as usual Johan. God bless and rock on 🎸😎👍
Thanks my friend, rock on!
Agree completely. I built a two channel amp with both. It's versatile, and doesn't leave me wanting. I highly recommend.
I've been looking into both of these amps lately and this is the EXACT test I was trying to find. Another excellent video!
It would’ve been interesting to hear the 2204 with the preamp dimed, and the master turned up to the threshold of feedback. I feel like the bright cap on the 2204 would be very audible with the preamp at 6, and it does sound brighter than the 1987 here.
Here the 2204 doesn’t sound like it has tons more gain, so I prefer the thickness of the 1987. Great work as usual, Johan!
Thanks Todd! That’s a good point
Yeah, the 800 has a bit more gain than that, but the comparo works as to the change in tonality in the cascaded vs non cascaded designs at a similar gain setting.
I would have liked to have heard the 1987 with the channels jumpered.
1987 by far for me. Thicker and more " grunt ". The 2204 is brighter and a bit more edgy in the distortion. Still very nice but 1987 all the way for me. Nicely done.
I dig the vintage tone jumper. Makes everything you play sound about 200% cooler.
Thanks man, it actually was that cold
Unheated practice space, eh? Here in Austria we only had -5°C, so not too bad yet.
Also superb playing as always! You always manage to come up with the catchiest riffs. Makes me want to grab the guitar and jam along.
50Watters are my favorite. The 100W equivalents are 2203 vs 1959.
Both, please 😄 I have a 79 JMP 2204 modded by Friedman to tighten the bass and add a Jake E Lee mod and before that sometime around '80 Jose added a beefed up transformer and a little mojo. So many killer sounds available out of a deceptively straightforward looking bit of kit.
More similar than I expected but still preferred the 1987
Same.
I bought a 2204 in 1987. Never got along with that amp for some reason (I was a strat player), sold it and started playing Hiwatts instead. The ealy 70's 1987 I have now is the amp I wish the 2204 was back then.
Yeah I tried to make Strats work with vintage 2203’s for many years and wish I had my stock 71 1987 back then. But even though I play LP Specials with P90’s or humbuckers now, I still slightly prefer the 1987 to my stock 79 2203. There’s something about the low mids that make the 1987 warmer at any setting.
Great video, as usual! The 2204 really benefits from the master volume backed off a bit IME, around 6 is usually the sweet spot (depending on potentiometer taper). Which will actually not decrease volume, but make it much tighter and clearer. Though perhaps it has a little less gain than the 1987 at that setting. I agree in this video the 1987 sounded the best, but with the right settings I prefer 2204 any day of the week 🤘🏻
i have both. i really enjoy both. my 1987 has a little extra weight to notes. my 2204 has a bright cap mod that makes sound closer to the 1987. with it off its the sound of my childhood. 70’s arena rock at its best.
So close, that you can't go wrong with either one!
In this particular test it pleases me more to listen to the 1987, but I think I would find the 2204 more comfortable to play, because among the very minute differences it seems to have a bit more compression.
Not much in it - both sounded awesome with that brilliant riffing. Thanks Johan!
Thanks man, great to hear that!
I would like to hear you play something thru that Fender speaker cab next to the Marshalls with what appears to be an 18" speaker!
I like the deeper and more mids sound of the 1987 plus it came off as sounding a little higher gain than the 2204 because of that to my ears. I’d rather play through the more bassy/midrange sounding 1987. As I remember those 2203/2204 models had a cap over the volume and the gain controls that cut the bass that made them thinner sounding.
That’s an interesting reflection. The bright cap on this 2204 is 1000pf. I haven’t checked the one on the 1987. I think the 70 schematic says as much as 5000pf (.005 nano farads)
@@JohanSegeborn This is one comparison video I always hoped you would do! Always wondered how they stacked up.
I never knew what the caps were-at 5000pf, no wonder the bright channel on the 1987 is so piercing at low volumes. Haha. I just knew when at bedroom level when I jammed at home in the 70’s the bright channel on my 1987 (year 1971) was too thin and bright until I discovered cross-channel/jump-channeling. It made a Big Muff Pi sound good back then for learning Ritchie Blackmore solos. Then in the later 80’s I had a couple of early 70’s 1959 models and one 1969 Plexi modded for master volume plus the same caps (on the 2204) put on pull pots because then I could have the deeper sound if I wanted but also one OR both caps engaged to get that modern master volume sound. Even with both caps engaged the amps still sound thicker and more bassy than the 2203/2204 series. Even though some players wouldn’t like the bassy sound, I needed it when I played in my church in order to make the amps sound more like they were played really loud with the natural low end. They worked quite well.
Hi, Johan!
Like an old school boy, I like 1987, but 2204 is a little brighter and more sustainable. Thank you for the video! See you!
S.
Thanks man! See you!
Fantastic tone on this one 🔊!
Thanks, glad to hear it!
Those pulsonic greens are a major factor here I’d think
Great AB demo .... I love them both ...to bad I live in an apartment.....
Thanks John! They sound great with an attenuator at bedroom volume level too but it isn’t as fun of course
They have the same DNA but for more solo lead playing I prefer the 2204 and for rhythm tones the 1987. I thought I´d go with the 1987 for all! Surprised! Great playing by the way! As usual! :)
Thanks my friend! Glad to see you here.
[1987] Output tube push has more clarity to me. Thanks for the video, John.
As usual with Marshall amps, just get both!
Indeed!
Finally got my hands on the studio jtm. Sounds amazing. I did a comparison of the origin 50, studio jtm and studio vintage. I'm uploading it to my channel now.
At 20 watts it's 110 decibels the jtm. 5 watts about 103db i think. I haven't measured the other ones.
both are great amps...i wish i could buy this two and be happy all my life....
Interesting. It's like the 2204 is more direct, less squishy, which made me prefer the 1987 slightly.
Voth sound great. You can hear that extra gain from the 2204, which definitely can fuzzy the low end. The sd1 is perfect for the low end cut. That's why it tube Screamer works better on the plexi because it has a little more bottom end
I have a ‘76 2204 that’s non-cascaded, sounds ace, think 1987 with more headroom
Cool, those are really rare!
Båda låter verkligen fantastiskt.
Tackar! Gott att höra
Great vid as usual! For me its the 1987...just some hint of magic in there 😎🍷
Yes, but we are now 2024, not 2204 yet..... Love your videos Johan!
Thanks Ronnie! 😆
Normally I would say 2204, but that 1987 sounded better to me today. Very nice!
Thanks! Glad you like it
I don't so much hear a difference in gain but rather I can hear the grit and grind the cold clipper of the 2204 adds.
The 10k cold clipper to my ears has more tp offer than say a 33k cold clipper
Thanks, interesting feedback
I agree with that. I’ve never been big on amps that use a really large cold clipper. It adds a cool sounding edge to very saturated lead tones (like in a SLO, Recto, or 5150), but doesn’t clean up well from the guitar volume.
Boah. Great Tone. great comparison. 👏
Thanks! Glad to hear it
That's got to sound awesome in the room with those at full tilt!
I have a reissue 1987X and an JMP 2204 from -84.
The 1987X has quite a bit of gain available, if you are able to get the volumes up. I have trouble seeing the settings from the thumbnail, but my JMP 2204 is not really high gain.
They are different though, actually quite different, even though recorded audio doesn't always totally reveal it. 1987X is mids, not really much bottom. The 2204 is a bit wider and sort of more modern in a way. Punch the 2204 with e.g. an Boss SD-1 and it is the sound of ages. I feel the 1987x doesn't benefit from that in the same way, but it does take overdrive pedals very well.
I love both!
Great video, I've been waiting for this one! BTW are you using the Fredman micing technique?
Thanks! I’m having one sm57 perpendicular to where the dust cap meets the cone and another one 45 degrees to that in the same horizontal plane.
The nosel 1987 sounds particularly fabulous!
hey Johan, great work. The 1987 rulez big time on the low end. Much tighter (e.g. your low E chrords). The 2204 is mushier there. However, in the higher registers the solo tones on the 2204 are quite addicting. (shall I say I am biased?? I own both variants :-) )
2204 has more jcm style upper mids the 1987 sound more woodyer or creamier both have their magic tone in combination with great speaker cabinets maybe i wood play the 2204 with a g12-80 cassic lead or a g12-65 speaker for more heavy rock the 1987 is sound perfekt in combination with greenbacks and g12h
Thanks Dominik!
Both sound great and very similar. The 2204 seems to make the cabinet "speak" a little more, if you know what I mean, and is little raspier. I think I prefer the 1987.
Very interesting, thought I would prefer the 1987 but I like the 2204 a lot more here. Brighter mids character.
Thanks, glad to hear it!
As much as i love the 1987, with how amazing PA are, I'd either have to commit sacrilege and add a post PI master vol or just take the 2204 and run it cause it sounds good and has master vol so you don't have to blow people out of the room to get a good pre sound.
1987 sounds less fuzzy, more midrange, more dynamic and punch to my ears
Great video that pretty much nails the difference between my stock 71 1987 and 79 2203 set for the same volume and gain.
The MV will always be a little sharper in the treble and the NMV will have a warmer, more midrangey tone.
OTOH the MV’s distortion sort of holds together better making it a little more refined or modern, while the NMV has a rawness and rasp that some might not like.
Tone is delicious
1987 definitely tighter; holds together better on low end; better articulation...
I like both
I wish I had your job, Johan! 😊
1987 all the way 🎉
2204 needs that bright cap clipped out. They both do really
I’ve got a stock 70 Superbass and it’s a great amp with the vintage Marshall sound, but it’s a different playing experience to the Lead spec amps. No way would I want my stock 71 1987 and 79 2203 to lose that upper mid Kerrang and sparkle in the rolled down treble.
I like them both, the 2204 is more bassy, but we need to have both (in stereo must be glorious)…
One question, why you don’t crancked the preamp at 8 and low master? (In my experience the preamp between 7-8 gives the maximum gain, over 8 only gives more volume)…
Thanks for share Johan!!! (I’m waiting for the stereo 50 watts jmp video)
Thanks man, I’m afraid I instinctively maximise the master as a first order of business, but I see your point. Maybe a topic for another video
They sound pretty much identical to me Joh! \m/
Thanks for the cream Johan
1987 for the win
They both sound great but I like the 1987.
1987 is the best amp they make imo. I would prefer they just release a post phase inverter mv version with a switch to change to from hi to lo input. No more four hole
Hey, Johan, have you ever thought about going down the Jose mod rabbit hole? That might be an interesting way to explore 80’s tones. I just did a Jose mod to my Traynor, and it sounds killer.
Hi Todd! I did a bunch of videos of the SIR studios mods together with the Swedish amp builder Daniel Forsberg earlier here on the channel.
@@JohanSegeborn doh! Sorry I missed that.
Nice demo. Would you be able to put the setting on each amp in the description.
Cheers
Thanks! They are in the thumbnail actually!
@@JohanSegeborn I did try zooming in but it was too blurry to decipher. 🤘
I feel like to much gain staging is jut like the point you reach at going to far down tuning where you just loose the notes interval structure...IDK how to put it into words , but in this great example the 87 has that note separation / punch 🍻🤘
2204 has a little bit of a flabby low end. 1987 has a great grind to it and is slightly more articulate. Cheers from Hawaii
2204 sounds nice and nasty. Both sound great but that’s the one to me.
Thanks!
The 1987 seems to “breath” a little deeper than the MV. Either one is vintage Marshall and fine by me!!!
The 2204 definitely has the cascaded preamp section here? Any idea when in ‘77 this changeover occurred?
Aloha Johan!
Aloha!
Isolated, 1987 wins for me...However, I believe no one has the ears to hear a track in a dense mix and say:: "Ahh..Guitarist is using a 2204 with Tungsol EL34s and Mullard 12AX7s
In isolation, if one changes the V1 tube in either amp, the comparison changes yet again i suppose.
So, the 1987 has no master volume, correct? How is it breaking up then? Is it cranked?
It’s interesting how close they sound, given that the 2204 has cascaded preamps, or is this 2204 the early version without the cascaded preamps?
I think all 2204´s have cascaded preamp tubes and a MV.
@@qddk9545 no the first 2204‘s had the mastervolume but not the cascaded preamp that the 2203 already had. Strange decision, but they corrected that a year or so later
How do you switch between the tops? They both sound amazing when you play
Thanks glad you like it! I edited out when I switched amps
They're identical. If you blindfolded someone and told them to raise their hand when a different amp is used....they wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
You listening to music in the headphones?
If you bridge the Channels on the 1989 you should get a little bit closer to the gain structure of the 2204. But i like the more vintage sounding 1989 though. Nice demo as always Johan
Thanks, yeah it becomes fatter then but usually too rounded
IME jumping channel’s doesn’t add any more gain, if anything it’s the opposite. As Johan says it just makes the amp rounder sounding, which is the opposite of the 2203/4 sound
@@zachariahwade8482 it depends on how you are using the jumped channels. With both volumes at the same level the overall gain is significant higher cause you are using both halfs of the triode’s
1987X is so mean! Does 2204 have less gain than 1987X if you lower the master and crank the gain?
2204 has more gain but the 1987x has more tighter useable gain
I think the 1987 sounds much fatter and fuller. Makes me want one.....
Thanks, glad to hear it!
What you definately dont get thru the video is the FEEL
I only hear a homeopathic difference. Both sound great!
Thanks 😆
Will there be Marshalls inn 2204??
Sure! Bluetooth Marshall speakers and headphones for $500. 😂
😂
2204 is like the 1987 but "more".
Great gear doesn't denote talent
No on the contrary, These are brutally honest
Good thing for Johan - he’s a talented badass w/ badass gear💪🏼
Not pointing fingers. Just good advice learned the hard way.
The same and not the same but in a way that makes absolutely no overall difference.
Too close to call.