Runners Lane Interference or not? You make the call.
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Smart base running scores a run. RLI not called, but should it have been?
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OBR based rules, I would not call this due to the lack of quality throw.
Fed based rule set, there is no provision for a quality throw so I would call the interference.
I believe in NFHS this is Runners Lane Interference. In NFHS (unlike MLB) the umpire can rule that the runner interfered with the throw and caused a bad throw by being outside of the runners lane. So I would call this RLI, batter's out, inning over, run does not score.
He can't interfere with the throw if it was a bad throw.
@@Subangelis Under NFHS rules, the quality of the throw is irrelevant. What matters in a situation like this is whether the runner was in or out of the lane, and whether he was retired.
@@milwaukeejt7483 This is spot on. The throw is irrelevant in NFHS (only that there has to be a throw towards third base ; no throw = no interference). Under NFHS rules, this is runner's interference. The batter-runner is out, and the run does not score. If there were less than two outs, the batter-runner is out, and the R3 returns to third.
Runners lane interference in NFHS. Not under other rule sets.
you should give a read to NCAA 7-11p Note 1:
"If the batter-runner is running illegally to first base and their being outside
the lane _alters the throw of a fielder,_ hinders or alters a fielder’s opportunity to field the
throw, or the batter-runner is hit by the throw that has been made in an attempt to
make a play, it shall be called interference and the batter-runner is to be called out."
[emphasis added]
@@davej3781 Ah, college decided to change from OBR too. That's what I get for not double checking.
Nope.
8-4-1 The batter-runner is out when:
7. he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base; or
This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw.
He didn't interfere with the throw or the fielder. It was a bad throw, so there's no RLI.
@@Subangelis you're coming off as quite the fool copy-pasting the same incorrect comment in multiple threads. This is absolutely without a doubt running lane interference in NFHS and NCAA rulesets. Insisting otherwise with a dismissive "nope" and copy-paste just makes you look silly.
Under NFHS, that is RLI. The throw came from behind the runner and the batter runner was never in the runner’s lane. He’s out and R3 is returned to third base.
Except there was already 2 outs so the inning is over.
Nope.
8-4-1 The batter-runner is out when:
7. he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base; or
This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act *does not interfere with* a fielder or *a throw.*
He didn't interfere with the throw or the fielder. It was a bad throw, so there's no RLI.
@@SubangelisAs I said, under NFHS rules that is RLI. The pro and college rules are different.
@@Quidproxo he's quoting NFHS rules... he just doesn't understand them. though I'm not clear why he has 8-4-1g listed as 8-4-1-7; g is indeed the 7th letter of the alphabet, but I don't know where he's copy-pasting from that it'd be listed that way. and the college rule is basically the same as the NFHS rule, NCAA 7-11p and 7-11p Note 1.
@@davej3781 But, in his opinion, he is saying the runner did not interfere with the throw... It was just a bad throw, in his judgement, not caused by the runner. In that case, I agree an umpire can rule this is just a live ball and no infraction under NFHS.
OBR: no RLI since the runner did not interfere with the fielder taking the throw at first base; OBR 5.09(a)(11)
NCAA: yes RLI since the runner out of the lane very likely caused the fielder to try to toss the ball over the runner to reach the fielder at 1B. NCAA 7-11-p, Note 1.
NFHS: yes RLI since the runner out of the lane very likely caused the fielder to try to toss the ball over the runner to reach the fielder at 1B. NFHS 8-4-1g
Little League: no RLI for the same reason as OBR; Little League's rule is the same as OBR, and does not recognize interference with the fielder making the throw. LL 6.05(j)
Nope.
8-4-1 The batter-runner is out when:
7. he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base; or
This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw.
He didn't interfere with the throw or the fielder. It was a bad throw, so there's no RLI.
BR interferes by being outside the lane and ‘causing’ a poor throw. That’s all you need for interference with a throw in FED.
Nope.
8-4-1 The batter-runner is out when:
7. he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base; or
This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw.
He didn't interfere with the throw or the fielder. It was a bad throw, so there's no RLI.
If there are no runners on base - even if there are less than two outs - it can also be advantageous for the batter-runner to run out of the runner's lane. For example: Let's say the batter hits the ball about 5 feet in front of the plate. It's quickly fielded by the catcher and the batter-runner, in all likelihood, is going to be thrown out easily. The runner might as well run in fair territory and get into the catcher's throwing lane. The catcher might try to throw the ball over the batter-runner's head and *also* throw it over the first baseman's head. Under OBR (Official Baseball Rules, the same rules in MLB), this would *not* be a running lane violation because there was not a quality throw.
Make the umpire make the interference call! It's a rare call and many inexperienced umpires never make this call because they do not know that they are supposed to look for this.
However, under high school rules, a quality throw is not required and, in the above example, the batter-runner could be called out for interference if, in the umpire's judgment, the runner complicated the defense's play by being out of the runner's lane.
MYTHBUSTER: I've heard coaches teach their catchers to throw the ball *at* the batter-runner if they see him out of the lane. WRONG! What if the catcher misses the batter-runner (which he likely will)? That will likely end up being a wild throw - uncatchable by the first baseman. Now, the umpire will *never* call a running lane violation because of the lack of a quality throw.
So, what should a catcher be taught if the batter-runner is out of the lane (in fair territory) and his throwing lane is blocked? Throw the ball to the first baseman! The first baseman is your target. Make a good throw. Don't try to loop the ball over the batter-runner's head. If the ball doesn't hit the batter-runner, then the runner will be retired since the catcher is making a quality throw to the first baseman. The fact that the batter-runner is out of the lane will be rendered moot. If the ball *does* hit the batter-runner, then the running lane violation will be obvious and the batter-runner should be called out. In other words, JUST THROW IT TO 1ST BASE! If the batter-runner is out of the lane, consider him a "ghost" and throw it *through* him but not *at* him.
If the throw was on line and the runner caused him to miss it I would have called it. But because of the bad throw I think it's a good no call of Batters Interference
nobody should take the red area colored at 1:07 as a LIMIT to RLI. it's reasonable instructional guidance for when RLI is _most commonly_ at play, but there is no limit. RLI can be the correct call if the runner interferes with the first baseman taking the throw REGARDLESS of where the ball is hit.
For example, let us say the ball is hit directly to F5 in that image at 1:07, and he throws to 1B a bit off line so that F3 has to stretch towards home to field the throw, and the runner running out of the lane collides with F3. As long as the throw could reasonably have been fielded by F3 absent the inference, this would properly be called RLI in ALL rulesets.
Technically speaking yes, but practically speaking, you're never going to get that call. The throw from F5 that F3 can't catch is so unlikely to be caused by RLI it's a mute point. The runner would have to be so far into the infield to be absurd. I honestly don't think we can find an example of RLI ever being called, since the rule was created, outside of the shaded area in the video. But, yes, technically, the rule does not distinguish from where the throw originated.
@@MJHBaseball I've definitely seen it properly called from well outside your shaded area. It's just much less common. I've seen the exact example I gave happen.
No RLI because of the errant throw. Where I’m seeing a lot of confusion in the comments is that they don’t understand who the runner’s lane protects. It protects the runner, and the receiver of the throw, the first baseman in this instance. If the runner had interfered with his ability to receive the ball then yes, RLI, but here the runner had 0 impact on the first baseman’s ability to catch the ball because the throw was so far off.
In NFHS (high school rules) the rule includes "interferes with the throw" as well. Same with NCAA. You're referring to OBR rules, (MLB).
@@MH-Tesla he didn’t interfere with the throw. It was an errant throw. If it had been on line and a reasonably catchable throw, then it would have been RLI. My statement still stands. The rule is to protect the runner, and receiver of the ball.
@@spyderman312 I agree with you that he didn't interfere with what was a very difficult throw for the pitcher. I wouldn't call that runner's Lane interference either. I'm just clarifying the wording on the two rule differences between OBR and high school.
It is a violation in NFHS
8-4-1 The batter-runner is out when:
7. he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base; or
This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act *does not interfere with* a fielder or *a throw.*
It was a bad throw, so there's no RLI.
If he was in the runners lane, he wouldn’t have had to try and lob it over him. Runner’s out.
Exactly what others have already said...OBR-Nothing....FED-RLI. Quality throw is not required for RLI in fed.
8-4-1 The batter-runner is out when:
7. he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base; or
This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act *does not interfere with* a fielder or *a throw.*
It was a bad throw, so there's no RLI.
As mentioned in other threads, a quality throw is not required in FED & NCAA. If this is FED, I’m ruling the Batter-runner ‘caused’ the poor throw, and therefore RLI.
I wouldn’t call it. The throw pulled the first basemen into the path of the runner.
That does not matter.
Runners Lane Interference... for the last 45, he has to be in the runners lane... hence, the name.
using LL as an example is poor because according to the rules, if the runners lane is not present, you cannot enforce it UNLESS they skate outside of the 3 foot variance on the foul line.
He does not HAVE to use the runner's lane. The rule doesn't call him out for failing to use the runner's lane.
not a true throw, can't call it runners lane. did the runner "make" the fielder throw it too high? no. the fielder could have hit him in the back instead and get the call. run in the lane.
In NFHS (high school rules) the rule includes "interferes with the throw" as well. Same with NCAA. You're referring to OBR rules, (MLB).
NFHS wants to avoid kids getting drilled.
@@MH-Tesla yeah but interfering with the throw means the runner caused an untrue throw. are you saying that by putting themselves in between the thrower and receiver, the runner is interfering? I'm asking both by rule and by practice. cuz in practice, i don't buy it.
I’d never call that on this specific play.
why not?
@@larrykramer2761 don’t think it was interference
@@youbluethatone1017 Then you would not be applying NFHS rules correctly.
@@milwaukeejt7483 good thing I umpire for the Frontier League and they don’t use NFHS rules
Did you see the pete alonso first baseman pulled off the bag play yesterday? Seems like it could have been RLI.
For those saying RLI, how?, this not even close to RLI, F3 jumped for the bad throw b4 the BR even arrived, it's nothing in all rule sets
depends on ruleset. NCAA and NFHS rules explicitly acknowledge the effect of the runner out of the lane on the fielder making the throw - a bad throw made trying to avoid hitting a runner out of the lane is interference. see NFHS 8-4-1g and NCAA 7-11p Note 1.
@@davej3781 Nope.
8-4-1 The batter-runner is out when:
7. he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base; or
This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw.
He didn't interfere with the throw or the fielder. It was a bad throw, so there's no RLI.
@Subangelis Gaming it's not enough to just read the rule, you have to understand the correct and accepted interpretation. "... interfere with a fielder or a throw" is to be interpreted broadly to mean that if the fielder makes a poor throw because the runner is in the way, out of the lane, for example by trying to throw it wide of the runner or over him, that is considered interference with the throw. The NCAA rule is the same, though NCAA 7-11p Note 1 is a little more clear than NFHS 8-4-1g(1).
@@davej3781 The throw PULLED the first baseman off the bag he had to JUMP so the throw WAS NOT interfered with.
@Chris Humble the interference with the throw is the runner being out of the lane causes the fielder to make a poor throw trying to avoid hitting the runner (usually throwing it wide around the runner or lobbing it over the runner). This is only for NCAA and NFHS rulesets. In OBR (and little league fwiw) the interference is called based only on the fielder receiving the throw; if the fielder makes a bad throw, it's not interference.
By OBR rules this shouldn't be RLI.
You correctly mention where the runner has to run as to not hinder a fielder. But int he video you didn't mention WHICH fielder. Rule 5.09(a)(11) & Comment mention that the runner should be called out if he interferes with THE FIELDER TAKING THE THE THROW AT FIRST BASE. therefore you have to factor in whether the throw could have reasonably retired the runner (had BR not interfered). The rule has no bearing on any fielder making a throw to first base and therefore errant throws such as the one in this video are not a correct basis to call RLI on. This is true, even if you adjudge the fielder making the throw, to be "impeded" in making his throw by means of BR running inside or outside the three-foot lane.
Because in this specific example the fielder TAKING the throw is not interfered with by BR, there is no reason to call RLI
You are applying the wrong rule set. This is NFHS 8-4-1-g.
Good no call!
Absolutely runners lane interference. Batter is out. And I'm offended that you say a batter-runner should avoid the runner's lane in this case. What happened to sportsmanship and playing clean baseball?
What's not clean about making it more difficult for your opponent to put you out? And, yes, when an official is known for often not calling a particular foul, you should take advantage of that.
Using the rules on your behalf has nothing to do with sportsmanship. In most rulesets, this is not RLI, because first baseman was not hindered by runner. There was a bad throw becasuse of smart running position.
@Helvio Pichamone Candido Jr. define "most rulesets". There are 3 major rulesets, OBR, NCAA, and NFHS, plus Little League which is pretty much a verbatim copy of the pre-2015 OBR. In 2 of the 3 (or 4 if you count LL), this is RLI.
@@davej3781 Ok. Very bad math of myself. OBR defines need to hinder the fielder receiving the ball, not the one throwing it. On that one, pitcher just "chose" to throw away from the runner (and the first baseman), so no INT.
Nope.
8-4-1 The batter-runner is out when:
7. he runs outside the three-foot running lane (last half of the distance from home plate to first base), while the ball is being fielded or thrown to first base; or
This infraction is ignored if it is to avoid a fielder who is attempting to field the batted ball or if the act does not interfere with a fielder or a throw.
He didn't interfere with the throw or the fielder. It was a bad throw, so there's no RLI.
I hate this rule. It rewards poor fielding and we don’t apply this to any other bases.
If the rule didn't exist, the offense could keep laying bunts down 1st base line and purposely running in between the ball and 1st base.
@@ButchRahman then have the first basemen set up on the inside or outside of the bag Iike they do with dropped 3rd strikes. The runners lane only gives you the width of the foul line to hit the bag.
@@lylehutz You are allowed to take a full stride to the bag as long as you have been in the lane - you don’t just get the foul line.
RLI applies to uncaught 3rd strike the same as a fair ball.
I would not have called it. I would have called it if the pitcher was smart enough to throw it at his back and then challenge where he was. Either way I wouldn’t have because of how the runner ran straight the entire time and didn’t deviate onto the infield to try and disrupt the throw.
That has nothing to do with the rules
@@CurtisBooksMusic it actually is because it states “in the umpire’s judgment” interferes with the throw. In this case I think the pitcher over threw it despite the runner. I understand the throw doesn’t have to be errant to be called but in my judgment I wouldn’t have called it.
@@lscales6131 Sorry, I meant the last part. Whether the B/R runs in a straight line or not doesn't matter. 👍
Oh I agree I’m just saying what I use to justify the call.
NFHS you better call it. I think it’s already been mentioned that NCAA has also went away from the OBR requirements of “quality throw”. Real good call and example from last years NCAA tourney. Think it was the finals and call went against OU.