2nd Gear has left the chat // Sequential Gearbox Teardown!
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- Опубликовано: 31 окт 2023
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What did you guys think of the content format on this one? The shop vlog/hangout style was easy to produce and could mean more content if you enjoyed it!
loving it. a bit more relaxed and unscripted which is good. even better if it means more content!
I like it!
Besides, whatever it takes to see more videos from S/W is good to me
LOVE IT! It's got more of a direct, one on one, vibe
I like both.. what I like the most is more content. Not to mention, more content can result in more income which leads back to more content.
I really do enjoy the voiceover/storytelling feel of the videos, but I don’t mind seeing less of it if it ultimately means we get more videos.
Good.
Nothing will come between Mike and his lifelong passion of sticking his fingers into piles of sharp metal bits.
even experience!
Thank you, Kahlil.
User error. Sadly. U didn't shift hard enough. U got stuck between 2 gears and sheered teeth.
How many times did u have missed shifts?
I bet a fair amount. This is the consequence
Kyle from boosted boys knows a ton about these transmissions, it would be cool to see him show you how to rebuild it
Boostedboiz - talk to Kyle, yup.
UP!
we was the first to weld the nut i think
Yeah, he just did a video putting one together the other day, in fact.
X 8 million for Kyle, he'd love to check out the ferrari too
Drag racer Kyle of the BoostedBoiz rebuilds his Quaife quite regularly. You can do this. "Lewis Hamilton" socket was hilarious.
I would think a new trans that is designed for racing, would last longer than a couple laps. It will be interesting what Quaiffe has to say. Hopefully they will step up....
And then the fact that you have to weld a nut in a expensive transmission to prevent it from backing out is wild.
@@carlosleandry12it looks identical to a Honda 5 speed with straight cut gears. From the factory the Honda nuts are all peened over into a slot on the shaft to prevent backing out. If it’s the same design only at a super high power level (and it probably is), it would be inappropriate to assume the same mechanical lock would be capable of holding such a high power level when it was originally designed for about 80ft lbs of torque. So guys tack weld the shaft, I get it. They could have used safety wire, or a cotter pin, but that would have likely required custom fasteners. And traditionally on automobiles you simply don’t see safety wire (airplanes are loaded with safety wires).
@@carlosleandry12and therein lies the problem...this is a CHEAP sequential transmission. Whilst it still should break sequentials only fall into two categories...1. Expensive and good or 2. Cheap.
Almost everybody knows Quaife are cheap and unreliable by now. Hence its very common for racers to keep a spare on the shelf 😂
Designed for racing 150hp
Quaife has pretty low torque rating on their gearboxes. They are simply not designed to be more rigid because they have same size case as OE gearbox.
They are really designed for N/A rally racing applications.
BTW OE gearboxes tend to blow up after 300hp mark
Well done for not laying into Quaiff Mike. You've given them a chance to respond so lets see how that plays out. I could make a guess what happened here and I can see loads of others already have, but you're doing the right thing by having an expert assess it.
I don’t think Quaiff give a hp rating for the box anyway, so if you are smashing through 500hp + you are on your own
@@driftmonkey3646 Good 'ol armchair warriors know all.
@@driftmonkey3646you would think a company making sequential's intended the units to go racing with 500hp+
Hey, this seems like a long shot (I know, I’m a motorsport powertrains engineer). But it seems like that bucking sensation you experienced on one of your first Dyno runs could be the culprit. If I remember correctly you also chattered the springs in your clutch as well. That rapid acceleration & deceleration of the gear sets is quite bad. It induces both clockwise & counterclockwise forces on the teeth of the gear sets and that can cause fatigue over time, causing this kind of failure.
Do you think it would be worth inspecting the gear for hardness? I would wonder if there was a problem with heat treatment or is this something that could happen without a metallurgical problem?
The bucking dyno runs and flat foot shift testing were the first things that came to my mind, too.
@@minimal_ltdagreed. Seems weird to lose all the teeth.
@@GazzasStuff when a tooth or two go, unfortunately the rest will get hammered off by the opposing gear set. 😞
Hi there! I work designing transmission and I can tell you that doing an investigation for the root cause of a failure is a team effort, there are a lot of possible causes, but you can divide it in 3 big groups, design, quality and testing. In you case giving that you are tracking the car, you need to add more variants, it could be oil starvation, material composition, assembly misalignment, shimming pre load, bearings, and the list goes on, but looking at the power you are handling could also be a peak torque causing catastrophic gear failure as the primary failure and then most likely impossible to track secondary failures. It would be interesting though if you can post close up pictures of the gears, the fracture propagation usually tells a story, keep us posted!
I would imagine that Quaiffe have already seen this video being as their product failed so spectacularly and so publicly, so i hope they reach out to offer assistance.
The way the teeth rounded over when the came off the gear leads me to believe it was an improper heat treat on the gear.
That seems more like the hardening process on those teeth wasn't correct, those filings look mauled off rather than chipped off as Hardened metal should.
Yup. That gear was never hardened. It got chewed off, not chipped off. I've had chipped gears, teeth broken off, you see the fracture, clean (ish-oily) metal. This was just ground off.
That's a manufacturing defect. Someone needs to step up big time, considering the grief it cost Mike.
I would have to agree, the way the metal looks smeared at the break points, says it was either not hardened at all or the hardening was was performed incorrectly.
Being that I have worked in the gear industry machining and hardening them. I can say that the little gear did not have enough hardened case on the teeth themselves. Also there could of been a small undetected fracture on one of the teeth. When one tooth peels off like it has here, the rest will peel off just from the force from the other gear smacking each tooth. The larger gear shows spalling on the tooth faces from the smashing of metal between the teeth as they were peeled off. I would be suspicious of all the other gears used in this gearbox. I am assuming that most if not all the other gears will have some spalling on the faces just from running the gear oil and floating metal through them.
This definitely feels like the most probable explanation, hope the company steps up and makes ammends if it was something on their end
Good point as I have smashed a few gearboxes in my time and the teeth always chip off, the really fked gearset looks mauled off and the less fkd one looks like a few teeth have chipped off, as you see generally when gears fail, my money goes on the hardening being missed on the gear that let go
So far, all your videos were informative and obviously fun to watch, but in this one we can finally see a bit of your "off-camera" personality, especially with the shavings bit. Looking forward to more of that :D
I like this new format. Less polished (people) is a lot more relatable.
Agree with others, Quaife should step up here and provide so assistance. Or at the very least an explanation of how this happened on such a new gearbox.
Lotus Carlton's a rare and VERY quick car, even by today's standards.
And with the broken box, having worked for SKF bearings, I'd go with fresh bearings throughout, and a new 2nd gear set , if it's seperate to replace. Quaife may / may not have a warrenty period , so worth investigating that.
Other than that, a good deep cleaning session in a parts washer, and final inspection of parts then rebuld with fresh gaskets.
Of note, I would highly recommend swapping out the ATB diff and swap to a Plate style diff to match the other transmission. This'll mean you can at least fine tune the setup with diff lockup as these are far better suited for the track.
The Carlton is a beast, but lhd? shouldn't it be badged as Lotus Omega?
Hey Mike, hate to be that guy but we had the exact same issue twice with the Quaife on my K24 turbo and ended up going to a Holinger as the torque was just killing it
Little piece of advice: When you pry something off like the cover or the nut in use two large flathead screwdrivers or other flat-tipped tools like a small pry bar. Never only pry on one side since it's prone to binding.
I winced watching that also. Same way watching a video of a guy getting kicked in the jewels.
@@Failure_Is_An_OptionOP is 100% correct.
2:15 I know it’s not yours, but PLEASE show us more of that Vauxhall lotus carlton
erm, it's got the Opel badge.
@@ikaros4203same same. Vauxhall in UK Opel in Europe.
The body on these was made in Australia as a (GM) Holden Commodore, a later model of which was sold in the US as a Pontiac G8. 👍
Love the new format! I dare you to put your finger back in there...again, again.
Well, I've had a few runs around the block as it were with manual and primative sequentials so here is some of my takes:
- Could have been a minor alignment issue (drivetrain whiplash) caused by a multitude of small factors from halfshaft lash to differential lash.
- If could be that this specific 2nd gear isn't load rated for what you were throwing at it. A Midship car can create a considerable amount of mechanical grip to the rear drive tires.
- 2nd gear and 3rd gear can be fragile on certain transverse transmissions. It just due to size resistrictions.
- It only takes an instant of face to face gear hitting to clean sheer the rest. If you inspect the whole 2nd gear you may even find the first ones to break.
“Lewis Hamilton socket” 😂😂😂
On that note, it’s been awesome watching him the last two races. I want to see him take the fight to Max.
Kyle from boostedboiz is an expert in these sequential boxes maybe he has some tips and tricks
Remember Rod Quaife when he first started manufacturing Gearboxes, they were for Motorcycles back then. He sponsored a Sidecar Outfit with the then New Triumph Triple Engine owned and Raced by Alan Sansom, whom I competed against as a Sidecar Passenger.
@stanceworks the sequential trans has a torque limit. You have likely exceeded that level. It used to be posted on their site but seems they have forgotten to add that when they updated the website. If i recall it was just above 400torque. With big race slicks, something usually breaks in the drive line when high torque is applied. Sequential are strong but not extremely strong. They have a limit.
Get in touch with Kyle from BoostedBoiz he has at least 5 Quaife sequential boxes on K 20/24s and most of the run over 1,000hp he has blown up and rebuilt them many times, I think that the strain gauge setup is quite crucial to getting them to last, also being disciplined about keeping your had of the shifter when not actually changing gear.
On the positive end, you can still get another transmission. Years ago, i had a 10k dog box bite the dust.. With zero spares made, and it not being supported by the company who produced it. Still have it collecting dust till this day as a reminder to avoid rare oddball parts!
3d scanning and printing and cnc machine is more common nowadays there is absolutely someone who is able to fix it
@@bruceverhoef382 I looked into this. The cost was astronomical.
I also own a few broken gearboxes from EVOs & DSM. Various parts are no longer made for those transmissions too.
The trans is very repairable. Failures like that happen even on normal road cars that are driven in the usual way. What I find interesting is that it looks just like a motorcycle gearbox inside a FWD housing. Very simple design that's tried and tested, also cool to get to see the insides.
yes! it looks exactly like a sportbike transmission.
that's because all motorcycle gearboxes are sequential and have been since about 1930.......@@TravisFabel
@boostedboiz might be very good friends to have
Was just thinking about them having there box in there table in there shop in pieces
if these trannys survive a guy named Kyle drag racing them , you would think they would survive anything!!
I'm pretty sure Kyle with BoostedBoyz uses these transmissions ( I think he has 4 or 5 of them actually) and he has shred teeth off gears in the past a few times. He runs his K24 in the 1000+ hp range on the dragstrip. He recently rebuilt his himself. Give a shout.
You gotta camera man!!! I dig the change up... specially with diving into it together!! Great stuff man!
I did the same thing in a 1980 Mercury Capri a long time ago. The stupid car made 88hp brand new, but that was enough to take all the teeth off 2nd gear on the mainsheet. Dad was real proud.
I dig the shop talk style of this video. Not to say I don't enjoy your polished normal videos. A balance of both is what the doctor ordered. Keep up the good work, we look for to the next video.
Surely this is on the Quaife, I wouldn't question this any other way.
Two gears at the same time. I’ve done this on a Hewland box. Put the shifter mechanism back together and watch dogrings move as you go through gears on bench. If they don’t fully disengage before grabbing the next gear, it with be in two at same time.
A friend of mine had a couple of failures on his Quaife sequential 'box, they fixed it once but on the second occasion they said they couldn't fix it, they kept it and refunded him the full purchase price from 3 years previously.
Any reason you didn't send it back to Quaife under warranty? Looks like it's got a sealed non tamper tag on it so you can?
That's it Mike! Lift with the spine! 😅🥲
I think Boosted Boiz Kyle has 3 of these, 2x in cars and 1x backup. They always seem to be breaking.
Don't think of it as a paperweight. Think of it as $11,000 of spare transmission parts for next time something breaks!
To me looks totally fixable. Flush gunk, throw missing gears, and should be good.
@@Stratos1988that won't be a good thumbnail for this video though.
The challenge is that without root-cause, you're going to question every part coming out of that case, and the "costs" might be something like a wasted trip to Australia. Mike was lucky there was another one that could go in (and, of course that he and his team/friends/partners had enough time to complete the herculean task of swapping it), but that kind of thing isn't something you want to count on.
I'm not speaking for him, of course, but in his shoes I'd want that thing rebuilt while being triple-checked by experts in the process.
@@leeh9420 lol, I wouldn't trust this either. My point was rather that box isn't total junk yet. It's still possible that for example Quaife takes this on warranty, checks hardness on all gears and they turn out too soft top to bottom and 2nd gear giving up was just cause it was most used until failure.
I'm no expert but I would say that it could be possible that the treatment of the metal the gear was manufactured from was done incorrectly, it was obviously too brittle to handle the load it was receiving and shattered. My vote is for manufacturer defect, or defect from the company they contracted to make the gears for that transmission.
Hey Mike, don't know if you'll read this, long time fan, love the music choice, a nice nodback to the stanceworks forums days when you used to compile tracks to listen, the 80's are forever dawg.
You got a spottify Playlist for us to follow
Omg The Infamous Lotus Carlton. That brings back memories. I had one in the same color when I was living in the UK. What a fantastic car.
That car deserves a feature in this channel for sure.
I think they only made one colour.
@@geirhaugen3781 correct it was only offered in Imperial Green. Even do I have seen examples in different colors .
Hey Mike, from what I've seen/read there are two ways these gearboxes blow up. 1, the nut on 5th backs out a fraction and it allows for a misalignment. 2, the plate where the bearing for the gears stacks attaches to flexes causing a misalignment.
I really admired that amidst all the competition and general chaos. Everyone pulled together and made it happen. Better luck next year 🤞
Bet you've now got a good idea of how much automotive stuff costs in Australia, as doubt the same box would cost as much in USA. Still, that's pretty nuts how it totally striped second. Good luck with the rebuild of it.
I would be calling them with this footage and asking for a warranty in full.
I imagine they have been waiting for the news ever since the failure video went up. No way that they don’t know about this.
@@WhiskeyGulf71 also if it's a known issue that the three nuts back themselves off under heavy load they should remedy that.
Nah mate. You give them the info you have and see what they come back with.
Shit happens, castings can have flaws. It's how people deal with it that counts
@@getahanddown For an $11,000 or more retail transmission I would expect them to at least replace the parts so I could have it rebuilt. Shit like this shouldn't happen after a few laps.
definitely a manufacture fault. I'm sure they will stand by their product.
For the limited number of “torque episodes”, second gear endured, this screams “manufacturer fault”, metallurgical or otherwise.
After seeing the carnage, I thought the same thing.
One gear shredded and the other still fine (enough) looking.
Does seem like a flaw or already broken tooth that lead to cascading failure. Weird damage for sure
Love the format-it's a good element to add to the mix.
Another Upload by StanceWorks! You know im here!
Using impact wrenches like that on hardned steel parts is usually a bad idea. They are usually a lot more brittle and crack more easily when "hammered" on like that. I would use a breaker bar when removing those nuts - not have the whole thing hammer and shake like that...
a lil JB weld and it'll be ready to rip!
Loved the format.
The fact all the teeth completely sheared off is wild. Definitely seems odd for how low of power you were putting on the transmission.
Agree! Seems like those gears were not properly hardened.
@@firbolgI know it looks like that, but it's very unlikely. I think 2 pairs of gears were engaged at the same time, and one pair was destroyed.
Exactly, my non professional opinion is that gear was not for this rear box or was defective, one or two teeth is impact, all of them is demaged or wrongly assembled from factory.
@@mandrakejake I didn't get a really close-up shot but hardened steel should break not shear, unless it was only surface treated and then you're absolutely correct! :)
It’s almost like it was starved of oil.
Strange that nobody mentioned that Quife gearboxes simply not rated for that amount of torque.
Of course there may be some flaw from factory but in general they are designed to use front bellhousing part from OE Honda gearbox what defines size of gearset. Size of gears defines torque which they can handle. Considering OEM Honda gearboxes strart to blow up at 350hp mark it's not a surprise that Quaife blown gear at 600hp mark.
This Qaife gearbox is suitable for N/A rally cars not for crazy turbo builds.
Want to reliably handle bigger power numbers - get bigger gearbox with wider gears
The format of this video was fine. Your other videos, they're also fine. Your content is everything and your videos always wind through a story and that is what is the focus when watching. Saying what you're thinking is gold. On the transmission, boy, that's a tough one. I can't see how this happened. I remember when the tuning for the transmission was being done, engine power was cut during a shift, so that should have made things easy on the transmission. Hoping for the best and that you either get yourself a fully rebuilt spare transmission or that one way or another, you can recoup the money you had to pay for a second transmission. Maybe a Quaife sponsorship? That'd be nice!
Mike, love the new style, awesome as usual!
Quality control on this stuff us pretty tight, so I would doubt heat treatment has anything to do with it. An odd combination of physical conditions is more likely especially any drive forces that rapidly switch direction allowing any kind of unloaded acceleration before the teeth engage. Expert analysis can give more clues, but it's totally fixable. More important is to figure out what happened to minimise the chance of it from happening again! Manufacturer will actually want to know what happened so are likely to help.
2nd quaifing in its boots! 🥸
We’ve had a Holinger break on a dyno run and all we ever came up for the failure was the weight of the dyno/force of it on the deceleration on the runs…
Changed the way we did it from then on and haven’t had any issues ever since…
Good luck, I’m not saying our issue was the same but might be worth a thought
I haven't watched the whole video yet. But I just watched Hagerties video on the Carlton and so was excited. Then immediately dashed.... I also loved your project videos just as much if not more than driving videos.
Love the new format. Also I gotta believe Quaiff will want to make it right after a very public failure like that.
From what I understand of Quaife gearboxes, you should be able to get that fixed without too much drama.
Good luck - hoping Quaiff steps up and helps out.
This transmission looks incredibly similar to one found in motorcycles, just minus external selector. I am also no specialist but from what I see all points at material flaw of 2nd gear. Either one tooth sheerd off and engine torque did the rest or whole thing was weaker than intended and failed completly. My expirience is limited to small capacity bikes but I can tell, that nuking trans like this most likely isn't from driving style BUT as far as I can tell, you had engagement issues before Scotty had a look, so maybe 2nd gear was always running just 1/2 or 3/4 locked in position.
P.S If transmission setup is 1st-neutral-2nd so on, than Yamaha R1 is famous for blowing 2nd gear. Maybe this is some usefull reference.
Totally agree with you here bud... I dragraced bikes most of my adult life, these are supposed to be pretty tough and should handle that 4 cyl engine. I think its a steel issue but without seeing the parts up close and touching them it's hard to make a precise jugement call here.
@boostedboiz - Kyle, Mike needs some Honda eyes on this transmission
Look up the boosted boys. I kinda wounder if the dif wasn't gapped right in the case and it had play casuing shock. He explained this in one of last videos getting the mr2 ready for w.c
I previously commented I think it was the selector, and I still do. For that to happen I think 2 pairs of gears were in mesh simultaneously, and one pair won!
At least thats what usually has happened when boxes go like this.
Great attitude and approach. See what Quaiff think first.
From the closeup at minute 15:30 you can also see that the dogs engaging second gear are massively rounded off. This explains why it jumped out of gear. Compare it to the set of dogs just above for 3rd/4th gear
Now THAT is a sharp eye. I went back and looked and you are 100% right on that one. Good observation.
*Hits the shelf with transmission*
About 20 years ago I cracked the case of a Qualified differential in a 200whp VW. Quaife advised their warranty only covers the planetary gears, not the case of the diff, lol. They're an incredible company, lol.
What is the hardness of the second gear teeth?? too soft? not heat treated correctly? just a thought.
Stop teasing me lol I was drooling over that Lotus Carlton 🤤 sweet Jesus
I would sacrifice things for that lotus. Holy smokes a dream car.
Dang that was brutal.
Jeez I’ve blown up some transmissions before now, none has ever looked like that. That’s got to be failed hardening. Looks practically machined rather than snapped
the boosted boiz had the same issue with those transmissions. the welding the top nut seems to be the main fix. they run a few of them now.
I would say a bearing failure caused the shafts to spread apart from each other. It got to the point where the gear teeth mesh on second gear, was so little, it sheared the teeth.
I agree. Every motorcycle trans I've lost gears on has been a bad bearing at the end of the shaft.
The internals in the Q box look severely undersized for the job to my eye. Probably due to my experience rebuilding Eaton boxes designed for 1800 ft lbs of torque. 😂 This thing looks like a toy.
A bit of RUclips admin... The normal 1080 looks junk and YT wants us to pay for the enhanced bitrate. I wonder how many people are put off by the lousy image quality if they don't want to pay. Is it up to the creator whether enhanced bitrate is an option?
Kyle over at BoostedBoiz is VERY familiar with those Quaife sequentials lol
Mike, your the most relaxed persons on UT I watch. From what I know of that transmission it should be able to easily handle way more power and torque than you are putting to it. I hope Quaife help you out on this one.
the lotus omega is my all time dream car, what a machine!
Can't wait for the shirt
I'm not an expert, but I think the ignition cut was not long enough for the gear to engage when the shifter was pulled. So the power came back on as the gears were still meshing.
I have also heard not to pull on the shift lever and hold onto the shifter too long.
Generally what you do is put the trans into 2 gears at once to lock it for removing nuts.
Hmm that looks familiar. 2002 WRX 5speed. Got it rebuilt at local Subaru dealer for almost $2K. 11,000 miles later center differential carrier bearings needed to be replaced. Bought a STi 6speed and got rid of that stock 5speed.
I don't even know why but even back when I was an intern we also had issues with Quaife gearboxs. One of the Ginetta G50 race cars had the gears stuck in 4th and couldn't shift up or down. Not saying Quaife is bad or anything, but if you're paying that much for a gearbox you might add a bit more and get something better imho. Hope the other quaife gearbox can hold out a bit longer though
Good video! Looks a lot like a motorcycle transmission. If I had to guess, that gear missed a step in the heat treat process. Your right though, that should not happen! Perfect final comment.... it is "F'd up!"
My guess is all the bucking on the dyno caused it. I'll also guess they don't want the bad public press and will kindly send you free parts since you're a YT'er with some subs. Anyone else would be writing another decent check, lol!
So where did all the filings come from? Was the end cap bushing all chewed up?
Has anyone from Quaife reached out to you?
Great video on the Quaife box! That said, the Lotus Carlton (or should that be Lotus Omega for LHD?) is one of my favourite cars of all time!! It’s flawed but, made such a statement when it was launched!
Honda power!
Is it possible that damage was done with a bad quickshift tune? I know that it was finalized and dialed in by Haltech, but maybe this is a manifestation of damage done during the stateside shakedown laps?
You have a 40RA!!!! oh yes...please be yours....damnit
I don't know the neighbors, but as a die-hard Max Verstappen fan, I already like them.
I shudder to think of what an utter, demoralising disaster WTAC would have been had it not been for the good fortune of another box turning up in Sydney (if you can call an $11K invoice fortunate). I really hope Quaife are inclined to cultivating some good will.
i have some experience with this box but cant remamber if 2 gear was a lose one or part of the shaft wich would make it more expansive to fix
Speak with boostedboiz Kyle he has dealt with these countless times and even bought the billet gear casing.
That lotus carlton must be a rare car in USA only seen 1 in the UK
Yooo. Lotus Carlton!!