EDIT: This video blew up and A LOT more people have seen it than I was expecting, thank you all so much for everyone who watched and left comments, positive or negative! FYI, at 08:45 I mean to say "armour bags" and not "armour repair kits", slip of the tongue I didn't catch in editing and I'm off on holiday the day I'm uploading it lol
Really strange that they thought an armor system regularly used for battle royale pvp games where fights last seconds would work well in a pve hoard shooter where missions last from 10 to 15 minutes.
Yeah, same thought. So far they've been prioritizing functionality over fun. Like yeah a system like this works on its own, but in a game like Payday? And if it does, is it fun? I feel like those are the questions they're leaving behind when it comes to the armor system.
Idea, to change armor that will probably never be done. Kevlar Vests, behaves like armor from PD2, and Ballistic Plates, extreme non regenerating armor amount and has to be acquired from armor bags but it reduces dodge chance. If they did this, this would actually add some interesting depth to the game.
I feel like they were going for added ~~~realism~~~ but then forgot the words of Gaben. "Explain to me why that's interesting. Because in the real world I have to write up lists of stuff I have to go to the grocery store and buy and I have never thought to myself that realism is fun. I go play games to have fun."
I never appreciated how well deisgned left for dead's combat was until I watched this video. It does the whole "war of attrition" thing so much better than payday2, which is why I love survival mode.
@@blueyandicy l4d2 has momentum behind it. The game almost always is on the move from point A to B and any place you are forced to defend is a major event. You have to move fast otherwise you are risking your resources. Payday wanting to do the same makes some amount of sense but the issue here is that payday was never about attrition. Pdth secret has a 2 hour drill and it was and still is doable. That's on top of the way they did it in payday 3 just feels unfun. Hell even raid ww2 does attrition thingy better cause it is in micro instead of macro. It also helps that raid doesn't have 3 different health bars so you only focus only focus on health, ammo and grenades, all of which enemies can drop so aggression gets rewarded if you don't die in the process. Launch payday 3 was so bad that hey are still semi-sorta-kinda backpedaling from the attrition but their commitment issues to actual kill their initial design is holding the game back.
I do believe, that when devs decided to add trauma mechanic to the armour system that decision was an overkill. Like you are really get punished, when you're becoming overconfident with an adaptive armour which is ok, because you are getting punished for wrong actions, not because you are playing this game.
Great video, I think you hit the nail on the head. I just want to bring up the first Payday game which gets very easily overlooked since it isn't nearly as popular, Payday: The Heist. In Payday: The Heist, the armour system works exactly like Payday 2. You take damage to your armour, it breaks, then you start taking damage to your health. The difference is between how payday 1 and 2 play. Payday: The Heist has no ways to regenerate health without medic bags, so the game encourages you to use the most of your armour. Furthermore, there isn't any different armour choices, just light armour which you can get slight boosts to when you level up. In return, cop damage isn't insane like it is in payday 2. Cops can hit hard on the higher difficulties, and even on lower difficulties they break your armour quite quickly, but they deal manageable amounts of damage. This in my opinion is a much better "war of attrition" style of play since you actually get to have a say in the attrition part. If you're good, you can 'gate' damage through your armour like you can in payday 2. The game rewards you for playing the armour well. It's kinda funny since when Payday 3 first came out, a common defense I saw was "you just don't like it cause it's not Payday 2! It's supposed to be more like Payday 1!", when as an actual Payday: The Heist player I know it's nothing at all like Payday 3. There's a reason both of the earlier games had regenerating armour, and you summed it up pretty well. Once again, nice video.
Yeah I like attrition when it's not the only thing about a health system. I love PDTH's "Tug of War", sort to speak, you never feel like you're fully in control in tha game, it's very easy to lose an entire heist because of one stupid decision snowballing into an awful situation, really wish PDTH had more content.
In my opinion, PDTH way of doing armor is fine but the way they did damage was just too punishing, not helped by the fact that health is very scarce and that the only medic bag you'll get is your own, which costs a loadout slot. It made a lot of my (singleplayer) playthroughs of the game having the same loadout with better armor and a medic bag and that's it. It just became way too limiting for me and it became one of the main reasons why I don't play it as much
Funniest thing is - in PD:TH enemies deal same amounts of damage on all difficulties. It's just that your armor gets reduced by 10 points per difficulty. So you still take the same amounts of shots to health, but your window for errors and mistakes gets smaller and smaller. And I really liked this approach myself to be honest
Yeah, I usually just go with skills that don't require these to function, just so I don't have to focus on doing some stupid dance, or standing still and ADSing, just for a skill to function... It really makes no sense.
The armor system of PD2 was actually great, you could take some hits, cover and wait for your armor to regen to keep on the fight With PD3 it feels weird because you lose it and it's like you take double the damage
Repair kits break what could’ve been a perfect trio of resource management (ammo, armor, health), there was really no need to add “trauma” and repair kits. A fourth consumable type that only works for a specific condition (damaged armor chunk) quickly becomes frustrating to deal with when it’s a reward, or drop, for trading a civie or killing a special. Even for blue armor it suffers the same problem, bulldozers (and enemies in general) can wreck whole armor chunks, so when you finally take them down or push them back, your reward is a consumable you likely can’t use at that time since you’ve already been brought down to the next chunk. Honestly, I’m not against the revamped armor system. I *AM* against the “continuous loss” armor system the devs are so hellbent on keeping in the game.
Or u know do the thing that’s a 2 for 1 deal… Add perk decks to deal with the ass armor system, but also give more variety in builds…. Cus u know… we only have medic bag and armour… THATS IT… Literally no reason why this should not be added.
I think an easy fix to keep the armor system would be that repair kits are like ammo pickups, they’re dropped by regular enemies and are picked up automatically, and for killing dozers and techies they drop a full armor plate, you keep your fancy new armor system while still allowing players to regenerate armor in the flow of combat
Recently i played sons of the forest and one thing i noticed are the fact that the armor system in sons of the forest and payday 3 are identical. Armor as a second healthbar ✅️ Health do not regenerate ✅️ Damage goes to armor first ✅️ Require resources to refil HP and armor ✅️ The only difference is that payday 3 doesn't have an inventory system that makes the armor hp system works.
@@jaywalking0d there are, but they aren’t hitscan, and they are pretty few and far between. What I’m saying is that this system works great for a survival game like SotF, but not for a fast-paced horde shooter like Payday 3
Halo Reach has a SOFT health regen system which goes to 15, 30, or 45 health points, whichever is reached first. The soft regen is for some wiggle room.
The big question behind Payday 3´s armor systems is, is their idea of limiting heists length and forcing you to focus on completing it right, as the whole system has been made around that idea. Payday 3 changed a lot of systems for 1 reason, Overkill wants us the focus on completing the heists and getting out as fast as possible instead of the game being another "kill cops until you want out" style game, like Payday 2 become, where completing the heists was more of an suggestion compared to something that "needed" to happen. Now, part of this was how completing heists in Payday 2 gave very meaningless rewards, so after a couple of hours there was no real intensive to complete them, money was pointless as you had so much, as long as your max level and don´t prestige EXP dosen´t matter and continental coins can be gotten easily in so large amount you just have an endless supply of them, gage packets got collected immediately so the end result of a heists didn´t matter for them either. Payday 3 hasn't really fixed this problem either, heist give favor but they are random, infamy points but same as Payday 2, those become just a drop in the ocean after some time and money is as pointless as ever, we don´t even have a prestige system so you can´t reset your levels the same way as in Payday 2. The current armor system would be fine if you were focused on completing the heists and only that, getting punished for bad plays by losing armor would not matter that much if the heist is over in short amount of time anyways, you just survive with more careful play for a couple of minutes but that´s not really the reality we are in or the game we are playing.
Ironically as much as the attachment system from PD2 sucked….. it probably would have worked better in PD3 where your getting a drop chance several times per hours naturally rather then farming cash of the fastest mission possible.
The reason PD3 wants you to complete heists quickly is because of server costs. Those things are not cheap so the less they're used, the more they make. If they made it P2P like PD1 and 2, it would've completely removed server costs and given players more freedom at the cost of anticheat. Server costs kill a lot of games and I think it will kill PD3
Payday 3 was meant to be a more fast paced game They wanted you to go IN N OUT ASAP and the armor system was meant to punish you for sticking around (Source some Payday3 dev cannot remember so Trust me bro) this does not work cause payday was not designed in such way Payday is designed in a way where you will get hit no matter what you do (hitscan) but since armor used to regenerate you could only die by getting overwhelmed or pushing ur luck that and the fact all heists have more loot than people encourages to Go back IN which would be okay if it was not for the fact that you would usually have next to armor anymore by that time in the heist So a very scuffed Risk Reward system that's just annoying Most objectives are also in the open giving u no cover meaning ur a sitting duck Payday the heist had allot more cover and so did payday 2
You nailed something that's struck me as dumb ever since launch, and it's the "git gud" argument We're not talking about Sicario or some shit, we're talking about freakin' armor Something so integral to the game, that literally EVERY player has to deal with should be low skill floor, high skill ceiling- and reward you being high skill, instead of simply punishing you a bit less This is Payday, a cooperative shooter with a predominantly casual audience- not Dark Souls or the likes If running around the map like a headless chicken to abuse the easily-exploited spawn groups is a strategy brought up when explaining why the new system is well-designed, something has gone terribly wrong Earned my sub by the way
@@pyrotf2630 I did have to read most way through before I got to the Dark Souls. So yes. You are talking about what payday should be and what it shouldn't be. aka. Dark Souls. The only thing you are speaking about is Payday 3. I appreciate you think I miss-understood. But from what you are saying, you seem to be implying Payday 3 is as hard as Dark Souls. But you didn't mean to say that. Now I know. Or you're gaslighting me into thinking otherwise. Eitherway, its not that deep, this is a comment section. I now know what you meant.
@@OvercastSpy Sorry, I should've been clearer on what I was getting at when I alluded to DS Poor choice of game anyway now that I think about it, since I was talking more about unfairness than challenge, but it's what popped into my head
New last to me…. But I unlike most player do try and complete hearts rather then fap around wasting everyone time for an hour farming kills. Actually bothering to think about it is their any hours shooter apart from PD2 that gives you effectively infinite resource to last forever? Maybe COD, but actually being honest I can’t even think of one that doesn’t you some version of limited resources pushing you to actually bother competing the mission and leaving. The bigger issue I’m finding is that unlike something like DRG or L4D you’re not given pressure to keep moving. You kind of plat in one spot and run out most of the heist requirements In that one spot.
I second this… the idea is to push you to do objectives during assaults. The objectives should be in risky spots that you spend resources (ARMOR) to complete. Not just sitting a room with infinite health waiting for the assault to be over
@@cheezermeezer8632It's why, despite being blatantly overpowered, swan song was such a goated skill. It allowed for maps to have their objectives be in kill zones, which made pushing much more hard. I'm thinking of the Nightmare Prison heist and it's ending specifically.
I was so unbelievably disappointed by payday 3 on launch I literally never touched it again and that new armor system is a good reason why I'll never go back unless it magically changed
Payday 3 is missing one Key component. FUN! It is the most boring game I've ever played. Who wants to stand in a ring for 30 seconds 5x a heist all to get close to completing it for them to send out 5 cloakers to come kill you? Playing solo in this game on loud is sometimes pointless. The bots do nothing most of the time and only make the game worse. Crime Boss is everything payday 3 isn't . I paid the same price for Crime Boss as I did for 1 dlc on payday and all dlc on Crime boss are free. The bots do allot of your hard work and keep you alive. For goodness sake you have to beat chuck norris 😂 that's fun alone. My advice is try Crime Boss. It's everything you want from payday and more.
@thesun9210 I've stood there and watched my team of bots load a van take out 90% of the police and revive each other along the way. I've not played another game in weeks now 🤣
You're absolutely correct in the video. Payday's Armor system is something that doesn't work well for the game. It would work if Armor was more durable than it is, but really the better solution is literally the armor being a bar that regenerates after you lose it. Is it the same system as Payday The Heist and 2? Yes. But it also was intended to be in Payday 3 until the Lead Dev of Payday 3 said "Yeah, but what if we add this armor system similar to Call of Duty Warzone because it's more realistic?"
Fun fact, pd3 still doesn't have any form of damage buffer, no i-frames, no nothing, so you take all the damage you can possibly take always, very fun!
I believe the armor system boils down to 2 massive problems, the way the armor system works and how the game is designed. Payday 3 feels a lot more like Payday the Heist where you're always seeking shelter and taking cover to minimize damage to your armor as the cops are always on the move. But you were also singlehandedly punished for being too aggressive in PDTH. And because PDTH had the old armor system, the game had a constant feeling of dread and adrenaline of "one wrong move and you're toast." Meanwhile Payday 3's system is a joke in terms of how effective it is. Because the cops will always be dealing damage regardless of where you are, your armor will eventually break. Skills can either lessen the frustration or completely circumvent the difficulty of the game, which, I believe the skill system is an entirely different issue for a different time. And while the Adaptive Armor, Clean Slate skill, Adrenaline, and Armor Repair Kits are handy, it's a mere bandaid fix for what is a flawed design. In order for the armor system to feel good, the entire game would have to get redesigned from the ground up just so it can fit the new system. It's not as cut and dry as just "Revert to PD2." Once September comes around and Payday 3's 1st anniversary takes place, Starbreeze need to look into the issues with the armor system and act accordingly, as it'll only ruin people's overall enjoyment of the game if it's left untouched.
The lead designer wanted attrition to be a driving force. To make you manage your resources, pick your battles carefully, and really have to make the decision on whether sticking around for more loot is even possible. That's fine. I really like that idea. Problem is all execution. Payday 3 is not a tactical shooter, and it's not a boomer shooter. Tactical shooters have lower enemy counts with AI that is more reactive and (in the good ones) has error and reasonable reaction times. You have more tools to deal with less enemies but the stakes are high. Encounters are over in seconds. In a boomer shooter, most enemies fire projectiles, forcing you to evade their fire and stay on the move. There's a lot of enemies but since you can dodge fire you can clear encounters without a scratch. Payday 3 has dumb AI, extremely long encounters, and hitscans. Taking damage is unavoidable. More importantly taking damage to an attritible resource is unavoidable. If you exist, you're getting shot. You can mitigate how much, but you will. What really also gets me with the whole concept is we had an attritble resource in PD1+2, it's health. We have attrible armor and attrible health. It's redundant. If I were to try and accomplish the same design goal of Attrition here's what I would do: Nerf Ammo Pickup rates across the board Bring back PD2's armor system, though a bit weaker than it was in 2 Scrap doubled employables. You now have less to work with, but with regent armor you get some time to react and clear threats without it lasting forever, meanwhile Health and Ammo limits are tighter and you have different resources ex to balance. Not only that but placement matters again and you havs to more carefully consider where and when to drop you deployable.
Nerfing ammo pickup would be terrible. If you try playing Overkill solo you'll quickly notice that 90% of the guns do not get enough ammo to let you miss a single shot at best, and barely get anything at worst. Meanwhile with four players ammo pickup gets basically quadrupled and you get more than you could ever ask for, no matter the gun. Nerfing ammo pickup will only make solo experience worse, when solo Overkill is already almost impossible given how useless the bots are.
Great video. Also to keep in mind that now they added weekly overkill modifiers which have enemies deal health damage instead of armor damage which negates that mettle perk (when u have no amor ur able to gain a little bit of health per kill) because it deals both damage to both health and armor……which means u can have 1% health with full armor and now need to focus on just having medic bags or hostage trading perks which basically get messed up once final assault happens…..really messed up system with really poor execution
There was a survey a few months before the official game announcement, I took it, it was your typical marketing survey asking how I feel about certain brands, that was the first sign they were going to start doing what other popular games were doing. didn't think they would execute it so poorly you're right they fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of armor but also I think this armor problem is part of a greater issue with the game - the whole game loop, resource management, and heist design. the idea is that you start with finite resources and try to finish the heist before it runs out. in pd2 your finite (or limited) resources are ammo, health, and downs, additionally you can bring equipment to finish faster. for the most part, the balance was carefully maintained, which gave us variety in play styles. In pd3 they've pretty much gotten rid of most of these and all that's important is health and armor flavored health. not even ammo as Almir once said, running out of ammo isn't fun. the one remaining play style caters to the 1 in 100. So how do they find a balance between health and health? they don't, that's the big issue causing the resource management of the game to be so nonsensical, it's difficult to scale and difficult to fix, and it's being buried under bandaid fixes and the lack of challenge in the game. this isn't immune to powercreep like they want you to believe, it may even be worse, powercreep is inevitable and they're just giving themselves a bad start. (I could keep going about heist design but it's gettin long) I'm not completely against the entire armor mechanic as it could work in a different type of game, like say GTFO. but this payday, it doesn't work and I hope they completely rework it from the ground up instead of slowly letting it turn into a mess.
The new armor system is basically the stoic deck. Except the flask is an interactable dropped for you on the ground via rng. So you're just constantly soaking up damage and every hit is basically permanent. If they wanted to improve the system in as few changes as possible, they could let you decide how many chunks you want via skills. Maybe you can just have one big one that regenerates. Or maybe 20 little chunks and add an item/skill with a cooldown that let's you heal a chunk or 2. Idk.
I have an idea. If they want to keep this ass armor system so bad than they should do this: They should make resources bags (armor medic etc.) Pickipable. So you can pick up your armor bag and bring it with you. So you can play aggressively but you have to keep in mind how much resources you have left. This thing like you put down a bag on one side of the map than you wont have later if you need it just not working with an attrition system in my opinion.
Or u know do the thing that’s a 2 for 1 deal… Add perk decks to deal with the ass armor system, but also give more variety in builds…. Cus u know… we only have medic bag and armour… THATS IT… Literally no reason why this should not be added.
really says something imo when I watch videos of PAYDAY 3 and almost all of them have at least two players running the armour that recharges like PAYDAY 2, one with the purple healthbar lmao
Clean Slate should be made baseline. That said, I like the armor system because it makes me feel like I can no longer disregard assault waves. Outside of DSOD, Payday 2 always made me feel way too powerful.
I'm glad to see more videos on this topic. I genuinely want to love this game and I still play it occasionally, but the armor system and all the bandaid fixes surrounding it brings the whole experience down. The most frustrating thing is that PAYDAY 3's developers experimented with having a regenerating shield ala Halo, but ultimately axed it. It was called the "Dodge Meter" (no relation to PAYDAY 2's dodge mechanic), and took damage before your armor and health. Much like Halo, it would slowly regenerate after a period of not getting hit. In the current game director's own words, it was cut because "it didn't feel good when playing". I can't understand how they came to that conclusion. Also, if you want to see the battle of attrition concept done right, just look at PAYDAY: The Heist. The game designer(s) understood the necessity of having a regenerating damage buffer in a game with hitscan enemies, so the resource they stressed instead was ammo. You need ammo to kill cops to complete objectives, and you control how efficiently you spend your ammo. Running out of ammo puts you into dangerous scenarios where you're forced to leave cover to grab more, which in turn can deplete your health if you aren't cautious. It's simple, but extremely effective.
This system could've worked if it was similar to doom: where killing enemies in certain ways gives you armor or health. Instead, armor is only found from the armor bag, and when it's gone, you're screwed.
@@teeveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Or give you one if you didn't have one and have the skill, but yeah, it's something is my point. Still not much, 80% of the time that repair kit just rots away on the ground.
Your talk of the frustration of stuff of the game, honestly that's why I have my skill build the way it is including dealing with having to keep armor. My whole build centers around just mainly making playing the game part as least frustrating as possible, and even though I have fun with it it's so annoying that this is what Payday 3 has come down to. I don't feel like I'm in Payday 2 where I still have about 10 or 12 different skill tree builds to fuck about with and have a blast figuring what weapons and skills to use to make up the build. Here in Payday 3, I've mainly gone for the most just passive ways I can get all three buffs in the game without too much thought too it besides the times I'm throwing my smoke grenades to grab an armor repair kit to get back one chunk on my Adaptive Armor and then keep apatheticly fighting the cops back. Edit Note: Fixed it up with adding a "my" before "skill build" for it to flow better.
Armor only becomes useless when dealing with armor piercing modifier. if that modifier isn’t on the specific heist you’re playing then armor is still viable, simple as that.
What if they delete adaptive armor and make every armor work like it? Then you would only be punished for being too aggressive instead of just being punished
To put the systems as simply as possible: In PD:TH, you only lose 'life' if you play badly, but it's really hard to regain what you lose. Permanent damage is consequence, but you can avoid consequence by playing well. In Payday 2, you lose life freely because you're expected to be able to gain it back. Consequence is always coming, but the game expects you to deal with it, hence why high difficulty builds are you survive or you don't, regardless of how long the heist is. In Payday 3, consequence can't be avoided, which is everyone's problem with it. If you play well, you get little consequences. If you play poorly, you get a lot of consequences. If you play really well, then play poorly, it's the same as if you played really poorly, and then really well. There is no recovery. There is no getting your shit together when it's down to the wire. Your health even takes more damage than your armor, so if you've fucked up enough to lose your armor and not have any way to replenish it, you're just fucked and you can't do anything about it. That's what Payday 3 is missing above all else. A way to actually recover when it's down to the wire. A point, at *any* point, when you can stop the decline of your lifepool. Without it, there's a point where there just isn't anything you can do. If it wouldn't ruin the iconic medic bags and the Adrenaline system, I would actually suggest that health is what regenerates, rather than armor. A small, flimsy pool of health when you're down to the wire, where careful and cautious play can stretch it forever. That way armor works for allowing you to play aggressively without instantly being downed, but losing armor isn't just a 'give up' scenario like it is now.
The question is, if they added an equipable regenerative armor in a system designed around non regenerative armor, then whats the point of the non regenerative system? Like, one can't even make the argument of "but it has lower absorbtion and its not as effective in the short term." Like, even if it only blocked like 2 shots before breaking, it still circumvents the rules of the base system by being an infinite resource. Its almost like this wasnt a well thought out game...oh wait.
My problem with payday on top of the armor is how they are no commands to make AI stay stuck so on certain levels it feels like you're absolutely forced to run sentry or just get your armor tactically nuclear bombed assuming ammo pickups don't regenerate your armor because let's say you forgot the perk or something and you need to run over to the area restart whatever you're doing and then run all the way back to what you need to protect or whatever which will probably just get activated by a cop again and then you're just running back and forth And also weapons feel like they need to do more damage because the sniper is good because it feels like it can actually damage cops but even crouch hip firing will make it so it will hit something 15 mi away instead of the guy right in your barrel and also having to use a weapon 10,000 times just to get a advanced suppressor for example is a stupid mechanic
I have only played Payday 2 a little bit but still enjoyed this video. Sometimes it feels like you talk a little too fast however it was still mostly clear. Leaving a comment to help with growth.
I dont know if somebody said that already, but I'd suggest making the last chunk of armor able to regenerate (maby make it's durability lower, than the other chunks) and if you want to restore all other chunks - you can use the armor bag
Once I heard that "Payday 3 is neither realistic nor a power fantasy" and the way armor works in PD3 is a good example of that. The way armor was introduced would work in a slower pace, tactical shooter where gunfights are very short so you have to react fast and matches didn't take long. But because PD3 is a hoard shooter where matches take over 10 minutes to finish, you're getting punished for playing the game as you have an infinite amount of enemies going at you all the time who can easily take out all your armor from a distance with a finite amount of protection to your disposal to recover from it.
They have this dumb armor system and wonder why the game is dying. No matter how much fixes they make, the fundamentals of the game is not fun. People wont come back. Ever.
The problem with Armor Repair Kit is that it's worthless if you use Adaptive Armor and 90% of the time u forget to repair your armor anyways (and when u do its usually too late)
@@welkingunther4298 you're asking people to kneecap themselves for the sake of an item that is not only irrelevant, but inherently flawed and likely not helpful to the rest of the team. that's like sending a military soldier to the front lines with nothing but a bow and arrow (although maybe not the best example, given that bows were briefly a part of the meta in payday 2)
They should probably nerf most armor skills, make all armor like the current adaptive armor (minus the lower health of it, of course) and make adaptive armor replenish new chunks as well or make it a one big chunk of armor which replenishes bit by bit rather than fully. I feel like this will be the only way to not overhaul the entirety of the game's health and armor mechanics and keep stuff as they are but making them fun
In relation to the goldilocks zone, it's not just that they didn't hit it but I'm unsure if it's even possible. Even at release the amount of armour a player could have to work with was extremely variable, going from zero armour bags to four max skill investment ones. The game's design cannot reasonably account for how much of the resource the player will have unless it is decoupled from the player's choice entirely.
Heres any easy fix hear me out, Make armor regeneration in general but make it armor chunks is separate and think of it as over shield/armor, so we get normal regen armor back and a new system that gives extra non regen armor. Heck even just rename armor regen to pain tolerance and the over shield/armor chunks to armor. Like sure i get that this isnt a small rework because of the armor system currently and all the bandaid fixes and my proposal isn’t necessary as interesting, new or innovative but its more simple and makes the player less miserable imo
You hit the nail on the head. To put it bluntly - PAYDAY The Heist, the original, introduced armor because it wanted to be a Left-4-Dead but heist. Knowing police will be slinging lead at you, its developers came up with armor as your window of opportunity to avoid injury. While I appreciate a new game trying to stand out within its own franchise, there has to be a fundamental understanding of _why_ that system is in place. It feels like PD3 missed the memo entirely. I also have an issue with the whole "attrition" argument for this system, because PAYDAY already *has* attrition systems within it! Ammunition, health, and assault intensity are all components which can, and should, constrict you as heist playtime goes up, without the need for your "action points" in the form of armor to take any significant hit at all. None of these systems were removed, or even particularly altered for PAYDAY 3, so how is that not enough tools for the devs to create a time pressure?
I was playing the other day and had a similar thought: I’ve NEVER run out of ammo in PD3! For a game revolving around attrition, I find it strange ammo is so plentiful.
2 for 1 deal… Add perk decks to deal with the ass armor system, but also give more variety in builds…. Cus u know… we only have medic bag and armour… THATS IT… Literally no reason why this should not be added.
I think the current armor system has a use in a potential alternative game mode like a holdout where the design of the mode itself is not progression but rather attrition. I just remember seeing the game in beta and my reaction to armor at a glance was “why” the game has so much micromanagement it’s a chore to play.
i have played payday since the start of payday 2 its been 11 years and i think that the only thing payday 3 needs is perk decks and the old armour regen from payday 2 and it will be back on tracks!
I think the change they really only have to do is make each armor chunk regen up to the chunk. like the health chunks in hunt Showdown or the Far Cry games
I honestly believe that chunks are probably the biggest issue imo. Imagine a world where heavy armor could takes 4 chunks of damage and regen 3 chunks. Gives you a fighting chance still, and trauma ensures that you cant hide forever.
This is a good video and i agree with all your points but i think it could've been 5 minutes shorter. "Lastly ofcourse we have to look at payday 2. Payday 2 is easily the most important one to look at armor systems when talking about payday 3, as its what came before it" i think this and a few other lines where unnecessary. It doesnt convey anything because we already know how to count to 3 and we know what payday is or else we couldn't have found the video
i really hated the armor system at first but only recently i've started to become neutral to it, it's not good or bad i just think they fumbled the armor system by making it too similar to warzone's armor system. also doesn't help that any armor other than the adaptive just doesn't feel unique or worth taking i'm really hoping that they'd change it so all armors have one chunk but heavier armors have higher defense ratings and take less trauma damage so there's an actual difference when you pick armor that slows you down to a crawl over lighter armors, also makes it so the base armor bag without upgrades can armor up 2 heisters
They released a blogpost were they consider adding the option for more consumables to be carried with heavier armors (consumable-carrying being a new mechanic in itself).
Funny you mention warzone, they’re making changes with consumables, you’ll be able to carry I think a minimum of 2 consumables in your inventory, able to drop them whenever you want (armor repairs & health kits). So if your armor is about to break and there are no armor bags left you can use your stored consumables. I hated the new armor system too, changes the pace a lot but I’ve just gotten used to it.
@@gimok2k5 i read the blog about consumables but i didn't see that part lmao, pretty nice change imo since it gives a reason to pick heavy armors plus it lets me live my fantasy of being a tank that gives armor to my team
@@YaBoyKai_56 It was only a single paragraph near the end. They also noted that it's probably not going to be in the next update. If that's simply because they don't know how to balance it out when we can already carry 3 to 5 Kits, or it taking more time to create than they have for the next Update, I can't say.
While I like the new armor system Wanting the old one back is perfectly reasonable I think both types could have their own niche (standard armor for being tankier over short-term, classic armor for more long-term survivability and more forgiving resource management) That being said, I only ever use Single-plate armor (or Adaptive armor if I'm feeling silly) because of how little benefit the heavier armors give you weighed against how much more of a resource sink they make you
tell me why this is the 40th video I've watched on Payday 3 and I'm only NOW understanding how armor works. So it's basically like grey health in fighting games? (like sfiv?) where you take perma damage, but some of the damage can be regenerated if you walk out of combat?
I think the biggest issue is how the cops interact with the system. The cops act more like payday2 or Reach than like l4d2 zombies, and the cops do not deplete in strength while the players do. It does create that war of attrition feeling, but makes it 1 sided and FEEL unfair as the cops have infinite numbers while you have limited resources. The game I am reminded of with this is Fatshark’s Darktide and Vermintide 2. Both are PVE shooters inspired by L4D but with a emphasis on melee combat and set in the Warhammer 40K/fantasy world respectively. Because of this Vermintide does not use an armor system like L4D because you are generally not being shot at and when you are it is because of a special enemy. Darktide, the sci-fi game, has regular enemies with guns and as such provides a shield mechanic called toughness. I like how they designed a lot of the combat around toughness as melee kills restore toughness, providing incentive to get into the thick of it, and having specials who can strip toughness for the gunners to shred you. It makes Darktide feel still very melee focused for a game where half the enemies are shooting you without making it feel unfair like payday3 does.
In Payday 2 armor gateing is so powerful that on DS difficulty every shot you take will break your armor. This is why most builds you see for DS use the suit. If Payday 3 used the Payday 2 armor sysem I would like to see armor gateing removed. It will allow for proper enemy damage scaleing and will make more heavy armor builds viable in high difficulties. Obviously skill trees would be changed to reflect this.
Yeah, I am going to disagree with that and, after the addition of Armor Repair Kits, I find the new armor system works VERY well in the intended way. Not just as a limited resource, but also having players demand to play either defensively, or gain access to ways to repair armor in a way (which if even just ONE player is build around trading hostages efficently, means you'll have A LOT of armor repair kits to fall back to - people *seriously* underestimate the value of hostages and trading them for resources). It also helps to move around the map itself, as cops are not in as much of an overwhelming amount spawning everywhere as in Payday 2, but spawn more limited, so just going elsewhere gives players some room to breathe. Saying that "it fails to understand the other armor systems" is just wrong. It very much understands those - and doesn't care, for it wants to do something else. It wants armor to be a limited resource so that players DON'T constantly hang around forever. And with the just-announced option to carry FAKs and ARKs around, it makes keeping armor up while still making armor an overall limited resource.
Yeah, while I get where you’re coming from, I still think you misunderstood my point about the system misunderstanding it. Armour existing in shooter games like Reach/PAYDAY 2 are meant to be brief “invulnerability” periods where you’re not permanently taking any damage, in PAYDAY 3 though, its effectively just a 2nd health bar, making armour as a whole pointless because it doesn’t have that notable difference from health. As for ARKs though, I can only reiterate what I said in the video as, well, it’s my opinion on it, I just personally believe that having such an important resource being able to be obtained in such high quantity (and with a reasonable level of consistency too, with Menacing and dominating cops) and then being able to sustain it for as long as you are able to with negates a lot of the challenge the system originally imposed.
@@cookiedou3you actualy have one important diference - armor recovery. You don't have invul, but, you can "trade" plate hp for way more damage then it intended to have.
The basis for all of these arguments is that it's "impossible" to avoid taking damage but that is simply not true. Hitscan enemies? Yeah, you kill them before they can even take the shot at you in the first place. It's called combat. You could always hold down a certain point or clear a room in PD3 without taking a single shot, you just needed good spatial awareness and aim. There have been times before 1.1.2 when I've started bagging loot and exiting the bank in NRFTW without having lost a single plate. The system of "all damage is bad damage, avoid it" could have made for a massively higher skill ceiling over the previous two games with tighter execution. In the previous games, since there was some amount of damage that was inconsequential to take, there was a very well-defined skill ceiling where if you could avoid more than a certain amount of damage per time, you had pretty much solved the game. Like if you could stay below taking one shot every two seconds on DS you never have to worry about going down, which is something that is perfectly manageable for good players to pull off. I've played in OVK193+ lobbies that felt piss easy because everyone in the lobby could hold their own while staying below 'the threshold'. The skill ceiling with this inconsequential damage is just never high enough. Attrition could have been better because, since every misstep is consequential, 'the threshold' is absolute zero and hitting the skill ceiling would require perfect gameplay and avoiding even being shot once, which would make it infinitely higher than even DS, which merely demands that you take less than 600 hits in a 20 minute heist. It only failed because the game was never difficult enough to make use of this skill ceiling. Of course, in practice there is an amount of damage you can inconsequentially take determined by how many armour bags you have and how short the heists are, plateauing the skill depth to something lower than the previous games since there's just too much armour and not enough heist length. The fact that it's easy to completely prevent premature plate breaks also doesn't help, since game's main source of excitement would only exist when you're close to completely exhausting your armour supplies, a length of time that good players could extend to well over 2 hours. Also saying that adaptive/fortitude is a good addition in terms of game design because everybody uses it is just stupid. "Everybody used the R8 Revolver, that must mean it was a great idea adding it to CS:GO!"
And where is "Fun" in this perfect gameplay formula? Maybe for you it's super fun to constantly be on highest alert possible and shoot cops before they can react to you but for most players such gameplay would just be exhausting, which adding of adaptive armor clearly shows. People like making mistakes that are forgivable, cause they can learn faster and get better with no frustration. Maybe this system has high skill ceiling, but what about the entrance? Should everyone else but you play only on hard and very hard then?
In my opinion, both the skill and armor systems need almost a full rework. Most players prefer a skill-tree system like we had in PD2, without the micromanagement of Edge, Grit, and Rush to enable skills. Returning to skill trees (maybe even incorporating the current buffs into their own separate tree for those who enjoy them) would allow for more diverse builds that focus on different playstyles. Currently, with every skill costing the same amount of points to unlock, balancing is extremely difficult and nearly impossible. Everyone can cherry-pick the best skills without any real investment. Regarding the armor system, just make them all adaptive. There's no incentive to use anything else. Balancing could be done by adjusting damage reduction, number of restored chunks per armor pickup, having one non-breakable chunk but with other downsides, etc. Basically anything that increases replayability because that is what’s lacking the most for me. TL;DR: Rework the armor and skill systems together (and add pre-planning pretty please)
Skill tree wouldn't work well because as i can understand - they planing to add more skilllines. It just limiting devs. Some skills just should be paired to smth impactfull. Talking about armor - there must be more adaptive armor variants. "Classic" armor works well with right skills, but it shouldn't be vanila option, just variant for advanced builds.
@@cringesellsbutwhosbuying Yes, as far as I know, their plan is to add more skill lines, but I think the whole concept is just bad. I'd rather have different trees with strong skills on top that focus on different aspects of the game (weapon types, armor, healing, etc.) instead of what we have right now. That would also help balancing them: stronger skills require more investment in the tree and overall more points whereas bottom ones don't have to be that impactful but also cost less. And I mean, they can still add new trees at some point in the future (e.g. akimbo-focused).
For all its many failings I think Back for Blood could teach payday 3 a lot. Health in that game is a buffer that can be easily restored in many ways, but every time you take damage “trauma” builds up, a semi permanent reduction to your max health. It means that while the health system is forgiving you can still get punished for sustained misplays or risky behavior. I think payday should be the same, armor regenerates like in pd2 but every time you get hit your active plate gets a bit smaller. When that plate is depleted it breaks and can’t be refilled. Using an armor pack fills the currently active plate back all the way. This system would allow you to make moves and take some damage, but there’s still an overall time pressure. Not “oh I got hit I need a armor bag” but “oh I’ve been getting hit I better start finding a armor bag before my plate breaks”
JESUS finally someone else made the comparison to b4b. 100% nobody likes the trauma system at launch but there are MANY more ways to regenerate ur health in that game… In payday 3? Well… u can’t LMFAO
@@todtatroll7946 I found the trauma system to be an interesting limit on effective health, especially when healing was so common. PD3 really needs to learn
@@ChaoticMess5618 I have over 600 hours tough guy. IM A SICK MAN What happens when u run out of armour bags and medic bags…. I’m assuming ur smart enough to know the answer
@@todtatroll7946 You are at a severe disadvantage which is exactly why you have to play it safe and dont be a giant dumbass running headfirst into a dozer like in payday 2.
Payday 2 armour was better, payday 3 is fine tho. Also I'm mainly a stealth player (not that I don't play loud) so it doesn't affect my main play style anyway
Just you shooting to reload a mag, just to then gain buffs, to repeat this every 15-30 seconds. This is the boring part of payday3 this is the absolute I’m bored and this gamie gi mic in the game that forces me to not focus on playing the game but rather keeping buffed up, so I can have my abilities work, is very annoying and not interesting or fun. The moment you don’t have your buffs your whole build just no longer works for almost every build. Fluid gameplay with abilities that naturally happen in the game flow is fun, forced ability activations on a constant to be able to keep your build running and preforming what you have it set up for, this is not fun.
I find pd3s health and armor systems a chore I have played since big bank and the days of no perk decks and lacking metas namely the older pre perk deck skills you had to pay for. Then later run jump crouching giving high 70s dodge with akimbo pistols and a pin point he judge you could not run out of ammo for that would stun enemies. And yes I have over 2k hours into payday 2 and don't really have any desire to play the 3rd and miss the older payday 2 versions when things where simpler where I met some friends. And shame on you for thinking otherwise.
It's really disheartening you didn't even bother looking at or mentioning how armor works in PD:TH, because the fact you have no armor skills and no health regen completely changes how you approach enemies and pushes, oh well.
@@cookiedou3 I understand but I feel like it would still add a lot of the video, as PD2 armor goes too far in being too lenient and why the game has too much of a selfish, hyperfast gameplay, that PD3 wanted to avoid, but PD:TH is the prime example of how you can have the PD2 armor system while still being a slower paced, more tactful and difficult co-op game that so many people seem to forget it exists, it's the perfect middle-ground.
tbf armor was kind of broken is payday 2, but i suppose the question would be was it an armor proplem or a enemy quantity/dmg proplem cos at higher levels if your not armor gating you will die wich i always tought was kinda dumb cos it made tanky builds very unusable such as ICTV anarchist. payday 3 system sucks regardless tbh jus needed some balancing not a revamp
I've been scripting a video of my own, and in the section I wrote for the armor (armour, sorry Brits), it is almost identical to this video, even down the the Halo: Reach comparison, crazy AlsoReachIsTheBestHaloGameAnyOtherOpinionIsWrong
I had fun, but I am taking a break from the game, until more changes are implemented. Game needs like 10 more maps More random events on map, right now it is very predictable, so you don't replay it as much Gunplay is fun, no complaints there 100% agree on armor conversation. It punishes even players like me, who play very conservatively, and hide behind stuff all the time
Finally someone talking about it, its what really destroyed the loud gameplay is the armor system, if they changed it and added bigger maps with more objectives, the game will change completely completely into fun game
I feel a good spot for comparison would be Vermintide versus Darktide and how they differ in their health systems to account for the differences in gameplay. Vermintide has few to no ranged enemies with most of the ranged combat being in the hands of the player. Mistakes tend to be the players fault and damage is punishing as a result but they give health packs, potions and character options to heal often. Taking damage is punishing but generally is on the fault of the player and can be recovered if you manage to keep pushing forward. Its similar to L4D Darktide however has a greater emphasis on ranged attacks. Enemies have it and often causing more situations where players get stuck in gunfights for periods of time. They accounted for this by giving players a regenerating shield mechanic but also by adding a "corruption" system. Corruption causes some attacks to remove health semi-permanently. Even if you have a method to regenerate health via skills or weapon traits you can't use it to recover corruption and at times it can even reduce the amount of times you get to go down before death. They also made healing items much more rare and situational but unmoving healing points in the environment are still very strong. They understood that by taking control of how much damage you may take away from the player they needed to add a system to give players leeway and then played around with that to make it interesting. Payday 2 has this leeway and intrigue but Payday 3 doesn't account for taking this away from players. You still take damage constantly but now you don't have methods of recovering it or even avoiding it consistently.
@@sauceinmyface9302Because PD3’s feel more tedious (let’s not forget the heists where you have to do the dreaded “stand in circle” objective). I can attest to this, because at launch (and after a few updates) even I felt the feeling of fatigue setting in much faster than PD2’s
I like the new armor system buy the problem is how there is no perks or skills that work well wwith any other armors except the Adaptive armor and Heavy armor
This armor is more like (oh god i have to say it) fortnite shields. A secondary healthbar of sorts rather being its aggressive play enabling nature from payday 2.
I wish I wasnt a lazy bum when it comes to video scripting, Ive got a cool idea for an armor rework without completely throwing away the current system, but also taking the best parts of 2's system. Great video, maybe its going to be the kick I need lol
I was too late to join pd2 (so I jsut played a little, but not mcuh and not much multiplayer), so I was stoked for pd3 release. Once I saw the armor system I was immediatly turned off.
The armour system speaks to the game's idea of wanting heists to be fast, in an out kind of things. Most if not all heists in the game can be ran through anywhere between 5 and 15 minutes. Meanwhile I actually kinda want longer heists, makes things feel more involved. Even the game's Big Bank equivalent can be blasted through. It feels like Payday 3 was a game designed for speedrunners. Little RNG, encouragement to get out as quickly as you can. Extra loot had (has?) low value that's not worth grabbing, further encouraging you to just leave. It's a game that wants you to spend as little time playing it as possible and to me that just feels weird and backwards. The armour system directly contributed to that as an ever-dwindling resource. But now that there's so many avenues to regenerate it and keep it going, even if it is an unfun chore to do so a lot of the time (same with getting/keeping Edge, Grit, Rush but let's not start on that one), it means we have a game, that wants you to go fast and was designed with the armour system to push you out of the heist, except now the armour system is much less stressful and we just have short heists without any real tension anymore. That's my thoughts anyway.
im on the "new armor is fine" side and i have some thoughts to share. armor finally works like armor now. i enjoy it because its _not_ a halo shield, and it incentivizes actually being time conscious in a heist so it doesnt drag on for 40 minutes. i feel strongly about this because i see payday 2 as a game that got obliterated by powercreep and featurecreep, and payday 3 is very clearly a deliberate step away from that with overkill weapon drops and limited armor being key features in this regard. switching back to the old armor system would mean also making it break in 1-3 hits again to balance it on higher difficulties, and this would mandate powercreep skills and weapons to make up for it. would the armor system really be relevant if they added a new equivalent of stoic or leech? i know payday 3 does have powercreep already with adrenaline and the g3 is just the scar-h with no recoil, but the balancing solutions for those things dont make me semi-immortal as would happen if we brought back the old armor system. im happy that the new lmg is chambered in an intermediate cartridge instead of .308, and im grateful that damage scales with caliber in pd3 instead of a newly added 9mm arbitrarily dealing 100+ base damage like pd2. i _dont want_ a 5.7x28mm that can magically pierce steel plate or a minigun that im somehow carrying enough power and ammo to feed tucked into my waistband in payday 3, im just having fun as wolf with 2 flashbangs and a dream on final charge. my problem with payday 3 is the replayability. bring back preplanning and rng variations to heists and ill play for 2k hours. i like the more serious, less silly themes of this sequel and halo shield armor that breaks in 2 hits would be the catalyst for doodooing all over those themes. the concept art with the clowns fighting on the gold & sharke stairs is how i want the game to feel.
Why compare this to other games outside of the genre when payday TH and payday 2 is perfectly fine for showing what the franchise WAS. You're just killing time. Keep it short and simple bro.
The fact that the armor is so bad. Running adaptive armor with the skill that automatically recharges a chunk of armor when you grab ammo is essential to all builds. Even then your armor chunk is not entirely safe unless you also abuse adrenaline from medic bags (which i do in every build). The fact you have to do all this for the armor system to feel somewhat decent is not okay
Love the video but gotta disagree on this one (obviously, I'm an armor system enjoyer). Payday 3 does not punish you for "just existing," it punishes you for not utilizing all your tools. Throwables, staggers, drawing aggro, taking human shields, marking enemies, etc. Obviously, you cannot always be three steps ahead of enemies and you should expect to take some armor damage, but it just creates more pressure on heisters to finish the objectives. That is why the devs intentionally made PD3's Cook Off not infinite. This is not to say you don't have legitimate criticisms of the mechanic. OVK really struggles with not making trading hostages OP and the helpfulness of the tools you can use are not intuitive. Also, playing solo really sucks for armor builds.
Good video overall I've been playing PD3 more as of recent and personally have found fun with standard lining over adaptive armour along with adrenaline it's certainly shifted my enjoyment on the game once I took on a playstyle you'd see in PAYDAY The Heist with my friends.
EDIT: This video blew up and A LOT more people have seen it than I was expecting, thank you all so much for everyone who watched and left comments, positive or negative!
FYI, at 08:45 I mean to say "armour bags" and not "armour repair kits", slip of the tongue I didn't catch in editing and I'm off on holiday the day I'm uploading it lol
Really strange that they thought an armor system regularly used for battle royale pvp games where fights last seconds would work well in a pve hoard shooter where missions last from 10 to 15 minutes.
🤷♂️
Yeah, same thought. So far they've been prioritizing functionality over fun. Like yeah a system like this works on its own, but in a game like Payday? And if it does, is it fun? I feel like those are the questions they're leaving behind when it comes to the armor system.
@@stomcat450 Yeah this system is just not even meant to be in a pve game
Idea, to change armor that will probably never be done. Kevlar Vests, behaves like armor from PD2, and Ballistic Plates, extreme non regenerating armor amount and has to be acquired from armor bags but it reduces dodge chance. If they did this, this would actually add some interesting depth to the game.
I feel like they were going for added ~~~realism~~~ but then forgot the words of Gaben.
"Explain to me why that's interesting. Because in the real world I have to write up lists of stuff I have to go to the grocery store and buy and I have never thought to myself that realism is fun. I go play games to have fun."
A lot of people need to hear this quote. Both the developers and players
L4d2 actually has grace period on higher difficulties and the shove. Simple systems but they do help. Also actually good content you got my sub.
I never appreciated how well deisgned left for dead's combat was until I watched this video. It does the whole "war of attrition" thing so much better than payday2, which is why I love survival mode.
@@blueyandicy l4d2 has momentum behind it. The game almost always is on the move from point A to B and any place you are forced to defend is a major event. You have to move fast otherwise you are risking your resources. Payday wanting to do the same makes some amount of sense but the issue here is that payday was never about attrition. Pdth secret has a 2 hour drill and it was and still is doable. That's on top of the way they did it in payday 3 just feels unfun.
Hell even raid ww2 does attrition thingy better cause it is in micro instead of macro. It also helps that raid doesn't have 3 different health bars so you only focus only focus on health, ammo and grenades, all of which enemies can drop so aggression gets rewarded if you don't die in the process. Launch payday 3 was so bad that hey are still semi-sorta-kinda backpedaling from the attrition but their commitment issues to actual kill their initial design is holding the game back.
I do believe, that when devs decided to add trauma mechanic to the armour system that decision was an overkill. Like you are really get punished, when you're becoming overconfident with an adaptive armour which is ok, because you are getting punished for wrong actions, not because you are playing this game.
Great video, I think you hit the nail on the head. I just want to bring up the first Payday game which gets very easily overlooked since it isn't nearly as popular, Payday: The Heist.
In Payday: The Heist, the armour system works exactly like Payday 2. You take damage to your armour, it breaks, then you start taking damage to your health. The difference is between how payday 1 and 2 play. Payday: The Heist has no ways to regenerate health without medic bags, so the game encourages you to use the most of your armour. Furthermore, there isn't any different armour choices, just light armour which you can get slight boosts to when you level up. In return, cop damage isn't insane like it is in payday 2. Cops can hit hard on the higher difficulties, and even on lower difficulties they break your armour quite quickly, but they deal manageable amounts of damage. This in my opinion is a much better "war of attrition" style of play since you actually get to have a say in the attrition part. If you're good, you can 'gate' damage through your armour like you can in payday 2. The game rewards you for playing the armour well.
It's kinda funny since when Payday 3 first came out, a common defense I saw was "you just don't like it cause it's not Payday 2! It's supposed to be more like Payday 1!", when as an actual Payday: The Heist player I know it's nothing at all like Payday 3. There's a reason both of the earlier games had regenerating armour, and you summed it up pretty well. Once again, nice video.
Yeah I like attrition when it's not the only thing about a health system. I love PDTH's "Tug of War", sort to speak, you never feel like you're fully in control in tha game, it's very easy to lose an entire heist because of one stupid decision snowballing into an awful situation, really wish PDTH had more content.
In my opinion, PDTH way of doing armor is fine but the way they did damage was just too punishing, not helped by the fact that health is very scarce and that the only medic bag you'll get is your own, which costs a loadout slot. It made a lot of my (singleplayer) playthroughs of the game having the same loadout with better armor and a medic bag and that's it. It just became way too limiting for me and it became one of the main reasons why I don't play it as much
@@infiniteraide1642 Well it makes sense, it's a co-op game, I get why you wouldn't like it in singleplayer.
Funniest thing is - in PD:TH enemies deal same amounts of damage on all difficulties. It's just that your armor gets reduced by 10 points per difficulty. So you still take the same amounts of shots to health, but your window for errors and mistakes gets smaller and smaller. And I really liked this approach myself to be honest
edge grit and rush are also annoying to deal with
Lol kinda designed themselves into a corner with that huh?
Yeah, I usually just go with skills that don't require these to function, just so I don't have to focus on doing some stupid dance, or standing still and ADSing, just for a skill to function... It really makes no sense.
amen
The armor system of PD2 was actually great, you could take some hits, cover and wait for your armor to regen to keep on the fight
With PD3 it feels weird because you lose it and it's like you take double the damage
I think all armor should just have the same design as adaptive armor and chunks for just be bonuses.
I honestly don’t even know why they used chunks if they dont fully regenerate. Ik you have armour repair kits but come on.
Repair kits break what could’ve been a perfect trio of resource management (ammo, armor, health), there was really no need to add “trauma” and repair kits.
A fourth consumable type that only works for a specific condition (damaged armor chunk) quickly becomes frustrating to deal with when it’s a reward, or drop, for trading a civie or killing a special. Even for blue armor it suffers the same problem, bulldozers (and enemies in general) can wreck whole armor chunks, so when you finally take them down or push them back, your reward is a consumable you likely can’t use at that time since you’ve already been brought down to the next chunk.
Honestly, I’m not against the revamped armor system. I *AM* against the “continuous loss” armor system the devs are so hellbent on keeping in the game.
@@Dr.Oofers I never said I liked either though?
@@Kero-zc5tcPretty sure he's just adding on to what you said
Or u know do the thing that’s a 2 for 1 deal… Add perk decks to deal with the ass armor system, but also give more variety in builds…. Cus u know… we only have medic bag and armour… THATS IT…
Literally no reason why this should not be added.
I think an easy fix to keep the armor system would be that repair kits are like ammo pickups, they’re dropped by regular enemies and are picked up automatically, and for killing dozers and techies they drop a full armor plate, you keep your fancy new armor system while still allowing players to regenerate armor in the flow of combat
Recently i played sons of the forest and one thing i noticed are the fact that the armor system in sons of the forest and payday 3 are identical.
Armor as a second healthbar ✅️
Health do not regenerate ✅️
Damage goes to armor first ✅️
Require resources to refil HP and armor ✅️
The only difference is that payday 3 doesn't have an inventory system that makes the armor hp system works.
Also, enemies in SotF don’t shoot at you with firearms, so it’s simple to avoid damage in that game altogether
@seanwallcroft6272 in SOTF there are range enemies
@@jaywalking0d there are, but they aren’t hitscan, and they are pretty few and far between. What I’m saying is that this system works great for a survival game like SotF, but not for a fast-paced horde shooter like Payday 3
Halo Reach has a SOFT health regen system which goes to 15, 30, or 45 health points, whichever is reached first. The soft regen is for some wiggle room.
The big question behind Payday 3´s armor systems is, is their idea of limiting heists length and forcing you to focus on completing it right, as the whole system has been made around that idea.
Payday 3 changed a lot of systems for 1 reason, Overkill wants us the focus on completing the heists and getting out as fast as possible instead of the game being another "kill cops until you want out" style game, like Payday 2 become, where completing the heists was more of an suggestion compared to something that "needed" to happen.
Now, part of this was how completing heists in Payday 2 gave very meaningless rewards, so after a couple of hours there was no real intensive to complete them, money was pointless as you had so much, as long as your max level and don´t prestige EXP dosen´t matter and continental coins can be gotten easily in so large amount you just have an endless supply of them, gage packets got collected immediately so the end result of a heists didn´t matter for them either.
Payday 3 hasn't really fixed this problem either, heist give favor but they are random, infamy points but same as Payday 2, those become just a drop in the ocean after some time and money is as pointless as ever, we don´t even have a prestige system so you can´t reset your levels the same way as in Payday 2.
The current armor system would be fine if you were focused on completing the heists and only that, getting punished for bad plays by losing armor would not matter that much if the heist is over in short amount of time anyways, you just survive with more careful play for a couple of minutes but that´s not really the reality we are in or the game we are playing.
Ironically as much as the attachment system from PD2 sucked….. it probably would have worked better in PD3 where your getting a drop chance several times per hours naturally rather then farming cash of the fastest mission possible.
The reason PD3 wants you to complete heists quickly is because of server costs. Those things are not cheap so the less they're used, the more they make. If they made it P2P like PD1 and 2, it would've completely removed server costs and given players more freedom at the cost of anticheat. Server costs kill a lot of games and I think it will kill PD3
Payday 3 was meant to be a more fast paced game
They wanted you to go IN N OUT ASAP and the armor system was meant to punish you for sticking around
(Source some Payday3 dev cannot remember so Trust me bro)
this does not work cause payday was not designed in such way
Payday is designed in a way where you will get hit no matter what you do (hitscan) but since armor used to regenerate you could only die by getting overwhelmed or pushing ur luck
that and the fact all heists have more loot than people encourages to Go back IN
which would be okay if it was not for the fact that you would usually have next to armor anymore by that time in the heist
So a very scuffed Risk Reward system that's just annoying
Most objectives are also in the open giving u no cover meaning ur a sitting duck
Payday the heist had allot more cover and so did payday 2
You nailed something that's struck me as dumb ever since launch, and it's the "git gud" argument
We're not talking about Sicario or some shit, we're talking about freakin' armor
Something so integral to the game, that literally EVERY player has to deal with should be low skill floor, high skill ceiling- and reward you being high skill, instead of simply punishing you a bit less
This is Payday, a cooperative shooter with a predominantly casual audience- not Dark Souls or the likes
If running around the map like a headless chicken to abuse the easily-exploited spawn groups is a strategy brought up when explaining why the new system is well-designed, something has gone terribly wrong
Earned my sub by the way
You cannot seriously be comparing payday 3 to dark souls...
@@OvercastSpyThey did not though?
@@OvercastSpy I didn't? Did you even read my comment?
@@pyrotf2630 I did have to read most way through before I got to the Dark Souls. So yes.
You are talking about what payday should be and what it shouldn't be. aka. Dark Souls. The only thing you are speaking about is Payday 3.
I appreciate you think I miss-understood. But from what you are saying, you seem to be implying Payday 3 is as hard as Dark Souls.
But you didn't mean to say that. Now I know. Or you're gaslighting me into thinking otherwise. Eitherway, its not that deep, this is a comment section. I now know what you meant.
@@OvercastSpy Sorry, I should've been clearer on what I was getting at when I alluded to DS
Poor choice of game anyway now that I think about it, since I was talking more about unfairness than challenge, but it's what popped into my head
New last to me…. But I unlike most player do try and complete hearts rather then fap around wasting everyone time for an hour farming kills. Actually bothering to think about it is their any hours shooter apart from PD2 that gives you effectively infinite resource to last forever? Maybe COD, but actually being honest I can’t even think of one that doesn’t you some version of limited resources pushing you to actually bother competing the mission and leaving.
The bigger issue I’m finding is that unlike something like DRG or L4D you’re not given pressure to keep moving. You kind of plat in one spot and run out most of the heist requirements In that one spot.
I second this… the idea is to push you to do objectives during assaults. The objectives should be in risky spots that you spend resources (ARMOR) to complete. Not just sitting a room with infinite health waiting for the assault to be over
@@cheezermeezer8632It's why, despite being blatantly overpowered, swan song was such a goated skill. It allowed for maps to have their objectives be in kill zones, which made pushing much more hard. I'm thinking of the Nightmare Prison heist and it's ending specifically.
@@blueyandicy Alaskan deal is notorious in my mind for doing this. Very painful without swan song lol
I was so unbelievably disappointed by payday 3 on launch I literally never touched it again and that new armor system is a good reason why I'll never go back unless it magically changed
I just gotta say king, your content continues to skyrocket in quality. We love to see the growth, keep it up brother
Payday 3 is missing one Key component. FUN! It is the most boring game I've ever played. Who wants to stand in a ring for 30 seconds 5x a heist all to get close to completing it for them to send out 5 cloakers to come kill you? Playing solo in this game on loud is sometimes pointless. The bots do nothing most of the time and only make the game worse. Crime Boss is everything payday 3 isn't . I paid the same price for Crime Boss as I did for 1 dlc on payday and all dlc on Crime boss are free. The bots do allot of your hard work and keep you alive. For goodness sake you have to beat chuck norris 😂 that's fun alone. My advice is try Crime Boss. It's everything you want from payday and more.
Based. New adventures await, buddy.
@thesun9210 I've stood there and watched my team of bots load a van take out 90% of the police and revive each other along the way. I've not played another game in weeks now 🤣
You're absolutely correct in the video.
Payday's Armor system is something that doesn't work well for the game. It would work if Armor was more durable than it is, but really the better solution is literally the armor being a bar that regenerates after you lose it. Is it the same system as Payday The Heist and 2? Yes. But it also was intended to be in Payday 3 until the Lead Dev of Payday 3 said "Yeah, but what if we add this armor system similar to Call of Duty Warzone because it's more realistic?"
Fun fact, pd3 still doesn't have any form of damage buffer, no i-frames, no nothing, so you take all the damage you can possibly take always, very fun!
There Is i-frame in the medic tree :^)
Hardy skill and Last Man Standing from Tank skill line. Combat Medic in Medic skill line.
couple skills grant invincibility so maybe u didn’t read
Those are less frames and more invuln periods, and not easy to come by
@@lobotomite4468 Oh great, mandatory build parts. Really hitting that max replayability and build variety.
damn. You can really see a work and care put in this video. Especially in a script and narration, which is easy to take on. Thanks for an effort
I believe the armor system boils down to 2 massive problems, the way the armor system works and how the game is designed. Payday 3 feels a lot more like Payday the Heist where you're always seeking shelter and taking cover to minimize damage to your armor as the cops are always on the move. But you were also singlehandedly punished for being too aggressive in PDTH. And because PDTH had the old armor system, the game had a constant feeling of dread and adrenaline of "one wrong move and you're toast."
Meanwhile Payday 3's system is a joke in terms of how effective it is. Because the cops will always be dealing damage regardless of where you are, your armor will eventually break. Skills can either lessen the frustration or completely circumvent the difficulty of the game, which, I believe the skill system is an entirely different issue for a different time. And while the Adaptive Armor, Clean Slate skill, Adrenaline, and Armor Repair Kits are handy, it's a mere bandaid fix for what is a flawed design. In order for the armor system to feel good, the entire game would have to get redesigned from the ground up just so it can fit the new system. It's not as cut and dry as just "Revert to PD2."
Once September comes around and Payday 3's 1st anniversary takes place, Starbreeze need to look into the issues with the armor system and act accordingly, as it'll only ruin people's overall enjoyment of the game if it's left untouched.
The lead designer wanted attrition to be a driving force. To make you manage your resources, pick your battles carefully, and really have to make the decision on whether sticking around for more loot is even possible. That's fine. I really like that idea.
Problem is all execution. Payday 3 is not a tactical shooter, and it's not a boomer shooter. Tactical shooters have lower enemy counts with AI that is more reactive and (in the good ones) has error and reasonable reaction times. You have more tools to deal with less enemies but the stakes are high. Encounters are over in seconds. In a boomer shooter, most enemies fire projectiles, forcing you to evade their fire and stay on the move. There's a lot of enemies but since you can dodge fire you can clear encounters without a scratch.
Payday 3 has dumb AI, extremely long encounters, and hitscans. Taking damage is unavoidable. More importantly taking damage to an attritible resource is unavoidable. If you exist, you're getting shot. You can mitigate how much, but you will.
What really also gets me with the whole concept is we had an attritble resource in PD1+2, it's health. We have attrible armor and attrible health. It's redundant.
If I were to try and accomplish the same design goal of Attrition here's what I would do:
Nerf Ammo Pickup rates across the board
Bring back PD2's armor system, though a bit weaker than it was in 2
Scrap doubled employables.
You now have less to work with, but with regent armor you get some time to react and clear threats without it lasting forever, meanwhile Health and Ammo limits are tighter and you have different resources ex to balance. Not only that but placement matters again and you havs to more carefully consider where and when to drop you deployable.
Nerfing ammo pickup would be terrible. If you try playing Overkill solo you'll quickly notice that 90% of the guns do not get enough ammo to let you miss a single shot at best, and barely get anything at worst. Meanwhile with four players ammo pickup gets basically quadrupled and you get more than you could ever ask for, no matter the gun. Nerfing ammo pickup will only make solo experience worse, when solo Overkill is already almost impossible given how useless the bots are.
Payday 2’s resources are infinite. The only real finite resource is ammo
This is why Crime Boss Rockay City is the REAL payday 3 we wanted. you should try it too though, its been going the No Mans Sky Route.
Great video. Also to keep in mind that now they added weekly overkill modifiers which have enemies deal health damage instead of armor damage which negates that mettle perk (when u have no amor ur able to gain a little bit of health per kill) because it deals both damage to both health and armor……which means u can have 1% health with full armor and now need to focus on just having medic bags or hostage trading perks which basically get messed up once final assault happens…..really messed up system with really poor execution
There was a survey a few months before the official game announcement, I took it, it was your typical marketing survey asking how I feel about certain brands, that was the first sign they were going to start doing what other popular games were doing.
didn't think they would execute it so poorly
you're right they fundamentally misunderstand the purpose of armor but also I think this armor problem is part of a greater issue with the game - the whole game loop, resource management, and heist design. the idea is that you start with finite resources and try to finish the heist before it runs out.
in pd2 your finite (or limited) resources are ammo, health, and downs, additionally you can bring equipment to finish faster. for the most part, the balance was carefully maintained, which gave us variety in play styles. In pd3 they've pretty much gotten rid of most of these and all that's important is health and armor flavored health. not even ammo as Almir once said, running out of ammo isn't fun. the one remaining play style caters to the 1 in 100. So how do they find a balance between health and health? they don't, that's the big issue causing the resource management of the game to be so nonsensical, it's difficult to scale and difficult to fix, and it's being buried under bandaid fixes and the lack of challenge in the game. this isn't immune to powercreep like they want you to believe, it may even be worse, powercreep is inevitable and they're just giving themselves a bad start.
(I could keep going about heist design but it's gettin long)
I'm not completely against the entire armor mechanic as it could work in a different type of game, like say GTFO. but this payday, it doesn't work and I hope they completely rework it from the ground up instead of slowly letting it turn into a mess.
The new armor system is basically the stoic deck. Except the flask is an interactable dropped for you on the ground via rng. So you're just constantly soaking up damage and every hit is basically permanent. If they wanted to improve the system in as few changes as possible, they could let you decide how many chunks you want via skills. Maybe you can just have one big one that regenerates. Or maybe 20 little chunks and add an item/skill with a cooldown that let's you heal a chunk or 2. Idk.
I have an idea. If they want to keep this ass armor system so bad than they should do this: They should make resources bags (armor medic etc.) Pickipable. So you can pick up your armor bag and bring it with you. So you can play aggressively but you have to keep in mind how much resources you have left. This thing like you put down a bag on one side of the map than you wont have later if you need it just not working with an attrition system in my opinion.
Or u know do the thing that’s a 2 for 1 deal… Add perk decks to deal with the ass armor system, but also give more variety in builds…. Cus u know… we only have medic bag and armour… THATS IT…
Literally no reason why this should not be added.
@@todtatroll7946 even better.
really says something imo when I watch videos of PAYDAY 3 and almost all of them have at least two players running the armour that recharges like PAYDAY 2, one with the purple healthbar lmao
Clean Slate should be made baseline. That said, I like the armor system because it makes me feel like I can no longer disregard assault waves. Outside of DSOD, Payday 2 always made me feel way too powerful.
Completely agree!! Idk why people always defer to PD2’s armor system when the only reason it was good was because of armor gating
I'm glad to see more videos on this topic. I genuinely want to love this game and I still play it occasionally, but the armor system and all the bandaid fixes surrounding it brings the whole experience down.
The most frustrating thing is that PAYDAY 3's developers experimented with having a regenerating shield ala Halo, but ultimately axed it. It was called the "Dodge Meter" (no relation to PAYDAY 2's dodge mechanic), and took damage before your armor and health. Much like Halo, it would slowly regenerate after a period of not getting hit. In the current game director's own words, it was cut because "it didn't feel good when playing". I can't understand how they came to that conclusion.
Also, if you want to see the battle of attrition concept done right, just look at PAYDAY: The Heist. The game designer(s) understood the necessity of having a regenerating damage buffer in a game with hitscan enemies, so the resource they stressed instead was ammo. You need ammo to kill cops to complete objectives, and you control how efficiently you spend your ammo. Running out of ammo puts you into dangerous scenarios where you're forced to leave cover to grab more, which in turn can deplete your health if you aren't cautious. It's simple, but extremely effective.
This system could've worked if it was similar to doom: where killing enemies in certain ways gives you armor or health. Instead, armor is only found from the armor bag, and when it's gone, you're screwed.
Killing certain specials DOES give you an armor chunk, but that's about it, sadly.
@@alkimos55
They drop armor repair kits, which don't give you an armor chunk. They only repair your current one.
@@teeveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Or give you one if you didn't have one and have the skill, but yeah, it's something is my point. Still not much, 80% of the time that repair kit just rots away on the ground.
@@teeveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeea skill can allow you to use the repair if your armor is completely gone
Maybe this is just me but a Payday game in source engine will work very well.
Hot take but the armor system is fine. It adds variety to the game and makes it more difficult, while it can also be mitigated by using skills.
Your talk of the frustration of stuff of the game, honestly that's why I have my skill build the way it is including dealing with having to keep armor. My whole build centers around just mainly making playing the game part as least frustrating as possible, and even though I have fun with it it's so annoying that this is what Payday 3 has come down to.
I don't feel like I'm in Payday 2 where I still have about 10 or 12 different skill tree builds to fuck about with and have a blast figuring what weapons and skills to use to make up the build. Here in Payday 3, I've mainly gone for the most just passive ways I can get all three buffs in the game without too much thought too it besides the times I'm throwing my smoke grenades to grab an armor repair kit to get back one chunk on my Adaptive Armor and then keep apatheticly fighting the cops back.
Edit Note: Fixed it up with adding a "my" before "skill build" for it to flow better.
Armor only becomes useless when dealing with armor piercing modifier. if that modifier isn’t on the specific heist you’re playing then armor is still viable, simple as that.
What if they delete adaptive armor and make every armor work like it? Then you would only be punished for being too aggressive instead of just being punished
To put the systems as simply as possible: In PD:TH, you only lose 'life' if you play badly, but it's really hard to regain what you lose. Permanent damage is consequence, but you can avoid consequence by playing well. In Payday 2, you lose life freely because you're expected to be able to gain it back. Consequence is always coming, but the game expects you to deal with it, hence why high difficulty builds are you survive or you don't, regardless of how long the heist is. In Payday 3, consequence can't be avoided, which is everyone's problem with it. If you play well, you get little consequences. If you play poorly, you get a lot of consequences. If you play really well, then play poorly, it's the same as if you played really poorly, and then really well. There is no recovery. There is no getting your shit together when it's down to the wire. Your health even takes more damage than your armor, so if you've fucked up enough to lose your armor and not have any way to replenish it, you're just fucked and you can't do anything about it.
That's what Payday 3 is missing above all else. A way to actually recover when it's down to the wire. A point, at *any* point, when you can stop the decline of your lifepool. Without it, there's a point where there just isn't anything you can do. If it wouldn't ruin the iconic medic bags and the Adrenaline system, I would actually suggest that health is what regenerates, rather than armor. A small, flimsy pool of health when you're down to the wire, where careful and cautious play can stretch it forever. That way armor works for allowing you to play aggressively without instantly being downed, but losing armor isn't just a 'give up' scenario like it is now.
The question is, if they added an equipable regenerative armor in a system designed around non regenerative armor, then whats the point of the non regenerative system? Like, one can't even make the argument of "but it has lower absorbtion and its not as effective in the short term." Like, even if it only blocked like 2 shots before breaking, it still circumvents the rules of the base system by being an infinite resource. Its almost like this wasnt a well thought out game...oh wait.
The armor system just needs to be the PD2 system again.
Fellow Reach enjoyer respect!
My problem with payday on top of the armor is how they are no commands to make AI stay stuck so on certain levels it feels like you're absolutely forced to run sentry or just get your armor tactically nuclear bombed assuming ammo pickups don't regenerate your armor because let's say you forgot the perk or something and you need to run over to the area restart whatever you're doing and then run all the way back to what you need to protect or whatever which will probably just get activated by a cop again and then you're just running back and forth And also weapons feel like they need to do more damage because the sniper is good because it feels like it can actually damage cops but even crouch hip firing will make it so it will hit something 15 mi away instead of the guy right in your barrel and also having to use a weapon 10,000 times just to get a advanced suppressor for example is a stupid mechanic
I have only played Payday 2 a little bit but still enjoyed this video. Sometimes it feels like you talk a little too fast however it was still mostly clear. Leaving a comment to help with growth.
I dont know if somebody said that already, but I'd suggest making the last chunk of armor able to regenerate (maby make it's durability lower, than the other chunks) and if you want to restore all other chunks - you can use the armor bag
Once I heard that "Payday 3 is neither realistic nor a power fantasy" and the way armor works in PD3 is a good example of that.
The way armor was introduced would work in a slower pace, tactical shooter where gunfights are very short so you have to react fast and matches didn't take long.
But because PD3 is a hoard shooter where matches take over 10 minutes to finish, you're getting punished for playing the game as you have an infinite amount of enemies going at you all the time who can easily take out all your armor from a distance with a finite amount of protection to your disposal to recover from it.
They have this dumb armor system and wonder why the game is dying. No matter how much fixes they make, the fundamentals of the game is not fun. People wont come back. Ever.
The problem with Armor Repair Kit is that it's worthless if you use Adaptive Armor and 90% of the time u forget to repair your armor anyways (and when u do its usually too late)
From meta deployable to almost useless deployable in one update.
So don't use Adaptive armor then?
@@welkingunther4298 you're asking people to kneecap themselves for the sake of an item that is not only irrelevant, but inherently flawed and likely not helpful to the rest of the team. that's like sending a military soldier to the front lines with nothing but a bow and arrow (although maybe not the best example, given that bows were briefly a part of the meta in payday 2)
@@goldenpig6453 Lol I barely use adaptive armor and get on just fine. Stop running around the map like a crackhead
They should probably nerf most armor skills, make all armor like the current adaptive armor (minus the lower health of it, of course) and make adaptive armor replenish new chunks as well or make it a one big chunk of armor which replenishes bit by bit rather than fully. I feel like this will be the only way to not overhaul the entirety of the game's health and armor mechanics and keep stuff as they are but making them fun
In relation to the goldilocks zone, it's not just that they didn't hit it but I'm unsure if it's even possible. Even at release the amount of armour a player could have to work with was extremely variable, going from zero armour bags to four max skill investment ones. The game's design cannot reasonably account for how much of the resource the player will have unless it is decoupled from the player's choice entirely.
Great video dude! Cheers for offering solutions and making your opinion heard.
Heres any easy fix hear me out,
Make armor regeneration in general but make it armor chunks is separate and think of it as over shield/armor, so we get normal regen armor back and a new system that gives extra non regen armor.
Heck even just rename armor regen to pain tolerance and the over shield/armor chunks to armor. Like sure i get that this isnt a small rework because of the armor system currently and all the bandaid fixes and my proposal isn’t necessary as interesting, new or innovative but its more simple and makes the player less miserable imo
You hit the nail on the head.
To put it bluntly - PAYDAY The Heist, the original, introduced armor because it wanted to be a Left-4-Dead but heist. Knowing police will be slinging lead at you, its developers came up with armor as your window of opportunity to avoid injury. While I appreciate a new game trying to stand out within its own franchise, there has to be a fundamental understanding of _why_ that system is in place. It feels like PD3 missed the memo entirely.
I also have an issue with the whole "attrition" argument for this system, because PAYDAY already *has* attrition systems within it! Ammunition, health, and assault intensity are all components which can, and should, constrict you as heist playtime goes up, without the need for your "action points" in the form of armor to take any significant hit at all. None of these systems were removed, or even particularly altered for PAYDAY 3, so how is that not enough tools for the devs to create a time pressure?
I was playing the other day and had a similar thought: I’ve NEVER run out of ammo in PD3! For a game revolving around attrition, I find it strange ammo is so plentiful.
2 for 1 deal… Add perk decks to deal with the ass armor system, but also give more variety in builds…. Cus u know… we only have medic bag and armour… THATS IT…
Literally no reason why this should not be added.
I think the current armor system has a use in a potential alternative game mode like a holdout where the design of the mode itself is not progression but rather attrition. I just remember seeing the game in beta and my reaction to armor at a glance was “why” the game has so much micromanagement it’s a chore to play.
With payday 2 being like 10 dollars when it goes on sale idk why anyone would play payday 3
10 dollars off sale, more like 1 dollar on sale.
Payday: The heist is better, though
@@MyUsersDark well... if you want basically 1% of the content. The full game is basically all dlc up to 2018 in that legacy bundle.
@@OvercastSpy Yeah I know. In hindsight he may have been referring to the price of the legacy collection and in that case that's on me
Epic Matchmaking is still ehhhhhhhhhh
(afaik)
For the bad game + $250 for the rest of the content.
i have played payday since the start of payday 2 its been 11 years and i think that the only thing payday 3 needs is perk decks and the old armour regen from payday 2 and it will be back on tracks!
Yeah, now try playing those heists for more than couple of times.
I think the change they really only have to do is make each armor chunk regen up to the chunk. like the health chunks in hunt Showdown or the Far Cry games
As somebody who plays stealth because of the improvement over PD2 I feel none of the armor issue lol
I honestly believe that chunks are probably the biggest issue imo. Imagine a world where heavy armor could takes 4 chunks of damage and regen 3 chunks. Gives you a fighting chance still, and trauma ensures that you cant hide forever.
This is a good video and i agree with all your points but i think it could've been 5 minutes shorter. "Lastly ofcourse we have to look at payday 2. Payday 2 is easily the most important one to look at armor systems when talking about payday 3, as its what came before it" i think this and a few other lines where unnecessary. It doesnt convey anything because we already know how to count to 3 and we know what payday is or else we couldn't have found the video
i really hated the armor system at first but only recently i've started to become neutral to it, it's not good or bad i just think they fumbled the armor system by making it too similar to warzone's armor system. also doesn't help that any armor other than the adaptive just doesn't feel unique or worth taking
i'm really hoping that they'd change it so all armors have one chunk but heavier armors have higher defense ratings and take less trauma damage so there's an actual difference when you pick armor that slows you down to a crawl over lighter armors, also makes it so the base armor bag without upgrades can armor up 2 heisters
They released a blogpost were they consider adding the option for more consumables to be carried with heavier armors (consumable-carrying being a new mechanic in itself).
Funny you mention warzone, they’re making changes with consumables, you’ll be able to carry I think a minimum of 2 consumables in your inventory, able to drop them whenever you want (armor repairs & health kits).
So if your armor is about to break and there are no armor bags left you can use your stored consumables. I hated the new armor system too, changes the pace a lot but I’ve just gotten used to it.
@@gimok2k5 i read the blog about consumables but i didn't see that part lmao, pretty nice change imo since it gives a reason to pick heavy armors plus it lets me live my fantasy of being a tank that gives armor to my team
@@YaBoyKai_56 It was only a single paragraph near the end.
They also noted that it's probably not going to be in the next update. If that's simply because they don't know how to balance it out when we can already carry 3 to 5 Kits, or it taking more time to create than they have for the next Update, I can't say.
While I like the new armor system
Wanting the old one back is perfectly reasonable
I think both types could have their own niche (standard armor for being tankier over short-term, classic armor for more long-term survivability and more forgiving resource management)
That being said, I only ever use Single-plate armor (or Adaptive armor if I'm feeling silly) because of how little benefit the heavier armors give you weighed against how much more of a resource sink they make you
also, no dodge.
tell me why this is the 40th video I've watched on Payday 3 and I'm only NOW understanding how armor works. So it's basically like grey health in fighting games? (like sfiv?) where you take perma damage, but some of the damage can be regenerated if you walk out of combat?
Yes
sick content, keep it up!
I think the biggest issue is how the cops interact with the system. The cops act more like payday2 or Reach than like l4d2 zombies, and the cops do not deplete in strength while the players do. It does create that war of attrition feeling, but makes it 1 sided and FEEL unfair as the cops have infinite numbers while you have limited resources. The game I am reminded of with this is Fatshark’s Darktide and Vermintide 2. Both are PVE shooters inspired by L4D but with a emphasis on melee combat and set in the Warhammer 40K/fantasy world respectively. Because of this Vermintide does not use an armor system like L4D because you are generally not being shot at and when you are it is because of a special enemy. Darktide, the sci-fi game, has regular enemies with guns and as such provides a shield mechanic called toughness. I like how they designed a lot of the combat around toughness as melee kills restore toughness, providing incentive to get into the thick of it, and having specials who can strip toughness for the gunners to shred you. It makes Darktide feel still very melee focused for a game where half the enemies are shooting you without making it feel unfair like payday3 does.
In Payday 2 armor gateing is so powerful that on DS difficulty every shot you take will break your armor. This is why most builds you see for DS use the suit. If Payday 3 used the Payday 2 armor sysem I would like to see armor gateing removed. It will allow for proper enemy damage scaleing and will make more heavy armor builds viable in high difficulties. Obviously skill trees would be changed to reflect this.
I hope you get to make a video in the future saying they fixed it and you should play.
Yeah, I am going to disagree with that and, after the addition of Armor Repair Kits, I find the new armor system works VERY well in the intended way. Not just as a limited resource, but also having players demand to play either defensively, or gain access to ways to repair armor in a way (which if even just ONE player is build around trading hostages efficently, means you'll have A LOT of armor repair kits to fall back to - people *seriously* underestimate the value of hostages and trading them for resources).
It also helps to move around the map itself, as cops are not in as much of an overwhelming amount spawning everywhere as in Payday 2, but spawn more limited, so just going elsewhere gives players some room to breathe.
Saying that "it fails to understand the other armor systems" is just wrong. It very much understands those - and doesn't care, for it wants to do something else. It wants armor to be a limited resource so that players DON'T constantly hang around forever.
And with the just-announced option to carry FAKs and ARKs around, it makes keeping armor up while still making armor an overall limited resource.
Yeah, while I get where you’re coming from, I still think you misunderstood my point about the system misunderstanding it.
Armour existing in shooter games like Reach/PAYDAY 2 are meant to be brief “invulnerability” periods where you’re not permanently taking any damage, in PAYDAY 3 though, its effectively just a 2nd health bar, making armour as a whole pointless because it doesn’t have that notable difference from health.
As for ARKs though, I can only reiterate what I said in the video as, well, it’s my opinion on it, I just personally believe that having such an important resource being able to be obtained in such high quantity (and with a reasonable level of consistency too, with Menacing and dominating cops) and then being able to sustain it for as long as you are able to with negates a lot of the challenge the system originally imposed.
@@cookiedou3you actualy have one important diference - armor recovery. You don't have invul, but, you can "trade" plate hp for way more damage then it intended to have.
The basis for all of these arguments is that it's "impossible" to avoid taking damage but that is simply not true. Hitscan enemies? Yeah, you kill them before they can even take the shot at you in the first place. It's called combat. You could always hold down a certain point or clear a room in PD3 without taking a single shot, you just needed good spatial awareness and aim. There have been times before 1.1.2 when I've started bagging loot and exiting the bank in NRFTW without having lost a single plate.
The system of "all damage is bad damage, avoid it" could have made for a massively higher skill ceiling over the previous two games with tighter execution. In the previous games, since there was some amount of damage that was inconsequential to take, there was a very well-defined skill ceiling where if you could avoid more than a certain amount of damage per time, you had pretty much solved the game. Like if you could stay below taking one shot every two seconds on DS you never have to worry about going down, which is something that is perfectly manageable for good players to pull off. I've played in OVK193+ lobbies that felt piss easy because everyone in the lobby could hold their own while staying below 'the threshold'. The skill ceiling with this inconsequential damage is just never high enough.
Attrition could have been better because, since every misstep is consequential, 'the threshold' is absolute zero and hitting the skill ceiling would require perfect gameplay and avoiding even being shot once, which would make it infinitely higher than even DS, which merely demands that you take less than 600 hits in a 20 minute heist. It only failed because the game was never difficult enough to make use of this skill ceiling. Of course, in practice there is an amount of damage you can inconsequentially take determined by how many armour bags you have and how short the heists are, plateauing the skill depth to something lower than the previous games since there's just too much armour and not enough heist length. The fact that it's easy to completely prevent premature plate breaks also doesn't help, since game's main source of excitement would only exist when you're close to completely exhausting your armour supplies, a length of time that good players could extend to well over 2 hours.
Also saying that adaptive/fortitude is a good addition in terms of game design because everybody uses it is just stupid. "Everybody used the R8 Revolver, that must mean it was a great idea adding it to CS:GO!"
And where is "Fun" in this perfect gameplay formula? Maybe for you it's super fun to constantly be on highest alert possible and shoot cops before they can react to you but for most players such gameplay would just be exhausting, which adding of adaptive armor clearly shows. People like making mistakes that are forgivable, cause they can learn faster and get better with no frustration. Maybe this system has high skill ceiling, but what about the entrance? Should everyone else but you play only on hard and very hard then?
In my opinion, both the skill and armor systems need almost a full rework.
Most players prefer a skill-tree system like we had in PD2, without the micromanagement of Edge, Grit, and Rush to enable skills. Returning to skill trees (maybe even incorporating the current buffs into their own separate tree for those who enjoy them) would allow for more diverse builds that focus on different playstyles. Currently, with every skill costing the same amount of points to unlock, balancing is extremely difficult and nearly impossible. Everyone can cherry-pick the best skills without any real investment.
Regarding the armor system, just make them all adaptive. There's no incentive to use anything else. Balancing could be done by adjusting damage reduction, number of restored chunks per armor pickup, having one non-breakable chunk but with other downsides, etc.
Basically anything that increases replayability because that is what’s lacking the most for me.
TL;DR: Rework the armor and skill systems together (and add pre-planning pretty please)
preplanning would be huge, I loved that
Skill tree wouldn't work well because as i can understand - they planing to add more skilllines. It just limiting devs. Some skills just should be paired to smth impactfull.
Talking about armor - there must be more adaptive armor variants. "Classic" armor works well with right skills, but it shouldn't be vanila option, just variant for advanced builds.
@@cringesellsbutwhosbuying Yes, as far as I know, their plan is to add more skill lines, but I think the whole concept is just bad. I'd rather have different trees with strong skills on top that focus on different aspects of the game (weapon types, armor, healing, etc.) instead of what we have right now. That would also help balancing them: stronger skills require more investment in the tree and overall more points whereas bottom ones don't have to be that impactful but also cost less.
And I mean, they can still add new trees at some point in the future (e.g. akimbo-focused).
For all its many failings I think Back for Blood could teach payday 3 a lot. Health in that game is a buffer that can be easily restored in many ways, but every time you take damage “trauma” builds up, a semi permanent reduction to your max health. It means that while the health system is forgiving you can still get punished for sustained misplays or risky behavior. I think payday should be the same, armor regenerates like in pd2 but every time you get hit your active plate gets a bit smaller. When that plate is depleted it breaks and can’t be refilled. Using an armor pack fills the currently active plate back all the way. This system would allow you to make moves and take some damage, but there’s still an overall time pressure. Not “oh I got hit I need a armor bag” but “oh I’ve been getting hit I better start finding a armor bag before my plate breaks”
JESUS finally someone else made the comparison to b4b. 100% nobody likes the trauma system at launch but there are MANY more ways to regenerate ur health in that game…
In payday 3? Well… u can’t LMFAO
@@todtatroll7946 I found the trauma system to be an interesting limit on effective health, especially when healing was so common. PD3 really needs to learn
@@todtatroll7946you didn't play payday 3, did you?
@@ChaoticMess5618 I have over 600 hours tough guy. IM A SICK MAN
What happens when u run out of armour bags and medic bags…. I’m assuming ur smart enough to know the answer
@@todtatroll7946 You are at a severe disadvantage
which is exactly why you have to play it safe and dont be a giant dumbass running headfirst into a dozer like in payday 2.
No payday player unironically socializes
I agree with all of the points you've made! Loved the video! great work earned a sub! :D
Payday 2 armour was better, payday 3 is fine tho. Also I'm mainly a stealth player (not that I don't play loud) so it doesn't affect my main play style anyway
Just you shooting to reload a mag, just to then gain buffs, to repeat this every 15-30 seconds. This is the boring part of payday3 this is the absolute I’m bored and this gamie gi mic in the game that forces me to not focus on playing the game but rather keeping buffed up, so I can have my abilities work, is very annoying and not interesting or fun. The moment you don’t have your buffs your whole build just no longer works for almost every build. Fluid gameplay with abilities that naturally happen in the game flow is fun, forced ability activations on a constant to be able to keep your build running and preforming what you have it set up for, this is not fun.
I find pd3s health and armor systems a chore I have played since big bank and the days of no perk decks and lacking metas namely the older pre perk deck skills you had to pay for. Then later run jump crouching giving high 70s dodge with akimbo pistols and a pin point he judge you could not run out of ammo for that would stun enemies. And yes I have over 2k hours into payday 2 and don't really have any desire to play the 3rd and miss the older payday 2 versions when things where simpler where I met some friends. And shame on you for thinking otherwise.
It's really disheartening you didn't even bother looking at or mentioning how armor works in PD:TH, because the fact you have no armor skills and no health regen completely changes how you approach enemies and pushes, oh well.
Sake of conciseness, really. L4D2 was a lack of armour, Reach was overly forgiving armour and then PD2 is PD2
@@cookiedou3 I understand but I feel like it would still add a lot of the video, as PD2 armor goes too far in being too lenient and why the game has too much of a selfish, hyperfast gameplay, that PD3 wanted to avoid, but PD:TH is the prime example of how you can have the PD2 armor system while still being a slower paced, more tactful and difficult co-op game that so many people seem to forget it exists, it's the perfect middle-ground.
That is very true, if I was to do another video like this I definitely think I would look at PDTH as it would be a lot better to draw comparisons to
@@cookiedou3 Thank you, that's nice to hear, PD:TH is way too underrated and definitely not talked about when it comes to the Payday discourse imo
Valid critizism. I would like to them to go back to payday 2 armor system. Also give us a second weapon alongside primary and sidearm!
what 💀
tbf armor was kind of broken is payday 2, but i suppose the question would be was it an armor proplem or a enemy quantity/dmg proplem cos at higher levels if your not armor gating you will die wich i always tought was kinda dumb cos it made tanky builds very unusable such as ICTV anarchist.
payday 3 system sucks regardless tbh jus needed some balancing not a revamp
I've been scripting a video of my own, and in the section I wrote for the armor (armour, sorry Brits), it is almost identical to this video, even down the the Halo: Reach comparison, crazy
AlsoReachIsTheBestHaloGameAnyOtherOpinionIsWrong
Remember Reach 🫡
I had fun, but I am taking a break from the game, until more changes are implemented.
Game needs like 10 more maps
More random events on map, right now it is very predictable, so you don't replay it as much
Gunplay is fun, no complaints there
100% agree on armor conversation. It punishes even players like me, who play very conservatively, and hide behind stuff all the time
Finally someone talking about it, its what really destroyed the loud gameplay is the armor system, if they changed it and added bigger maps with more objectives, the game will change completely completely into fun game
Yo bro, this video got you a sub. I hope to see more content from you sir
Personally I love the armour system, but I can understand why someone wouldnt like it (havent watched everything yet)
I feel a good spot for comparison would be Vermintide versus Darktide and how they differ in their health systems to account for the differences in gameplay.
Vermintide has few to no ranged enemies with most of the ranged combat being in the hands of the player. Mistakes tend to be the players fault and damage is punishing as a result but they give health packs, potions and character options to heal often. Taking damage is punishing but generally is on the fault of the player and can be recovered if you manage to keep pushing forward. Its similar to L4D
Darktide however has a greater emphasis on ranged attacks. Enemies have it and often causing more situations where players get stuck in gunfights for periods of time. They accounted for this by giving players a regenerating shield mechanic but also by adding a "corruption" system. Corruption causes some attacks to remove health semi-permanently. Even if you have a method to regenerate health via skills or weapon traits you can't use it to recover corruption and at times it can even reduce the amount of times you get to go down before death. They also made healing items much more rare and situational but unmoving healing points in the environment are still very strong.
They understood that by taking control of how much damage you may take away from the player they needed to add a system to give players leeway and then played around with that to make it interesting.
Payday 2 has this leeway and intrigue but Payday 3 doesn't account for taking this away from players. You still take damage constantly but now you don't have methods of recovering it or even avoiding it consistently.
The healing stims also have a massive opportunity cost in Darktide forcing you to not have other stims.
Honestly, I finished all the missions and replayed a couple and then got bored. With payday 2 I replayed missions over and over and never got bored
Why though? Genuinely curious?
@@sauceinmyface9302 why what exactly?
@@isbasil Why do you not get bored of a payday 2 heist, while you do of a payday 3 heist?
@@sauceinmyface9302 honestly, I'm not really sure. I'm kinda trying to figure that out too but if I figure it out, I'll respond to your comment again
@@sauceinmyface9302Because PD3’s feel more tedious (let’s not forget the heists where you have to do the dreaded “stand in circle” objective).
I can attest to this, because at launch (and after a few updates) even I felt the feeling of fatigue setting in much faster than PD2’s
I like the new armor system buy the problem is how there is no perks or skills that work well wwith any other armors except the Adaptive armor and Heavy armor
İmo payday2 system was perfect for horde shooter
This armor is more like (oh god i have to say it) fortnite shields. A secondary healthbar of sorts rather being its aggressive play enabling nature from payday 2.
Fortnite x PAYDAY 3 crossover when
@@cookiedou3 they were hinting at it, but nothing came of it.
I wish I wasnt a lazy bum when it comes to video scripting, Ive got a cool idea for an armor rework without completely throwing away the current system, but also taking the best parts of 2's system.
Great video, maybe its going to be the kick I need lol
I was too late to join pd2 (so I jsut played a little, but not mcuh and not much multiplayer), so I was stoked for pd3 release. Once I saw the armor system I was immediatly turned off.
The armour system speaks to the game's idea of wanting heists to be fast, in an out kind of things. Most if not all heists in the game can be ran through anywhere between 5 and 15 minutes.
Meanwhile I actually kinda want longer heists, makes things feel more involved. Even the game's Big Bank equivalent can be blasted through. It feels like Payday 3 was a game designed for speedrunners. Little RNG, encouragement to get out as quickly as you can. Extra loot had (has?) low value that's not worth grabbing, further encouraging you to just leave.
It's a game that wants you to spend as little time playing it as possible and to me that just feels weird and backwards. The armour system directly contributed to that as an ever-dwindling resource. But now that there's so many avenues to regenerate it and keep it going, even if it is an unfun chore to do so a lot of the time (same with getting/keeping Edge, Grit, Rush but let's not start on that one), it means we have a game, that wants you to go fast and was designed with the armour system to push you out of the heist, except now the armour system is much less stressful and we just have short heists without any real tension anymore.
That's my thoughts anyway.
im on the "new armor is fine" side and i have some thoughts to share.
armor finally works like armor now. i enjoy it because its _not_ a halo shield, and it incentivizes actually being time conscious in a heist so it doesnt drag on for 40 minutes.
i feel strongly about this because i see payday 2 as a game that got obliterated by powercreep and featurecreep, and payday 3 is very clearly a deliberate step away from that with overkill weapon drops and limited armor being key features in this regard.
switching back to the old armor system would mean also making it break in 1-3 hits again to balance it on higher difficulties, and this would mandate powercreep skills and weapons to make up for it. would the armor system really be relevant if they added a new equivalent of stoic or leech?
i know payday 3 does have powercreep already with adrenaline and the g3 is just the scar-h with no recoil, but the balancing solutions for those things dont make me semi-immortal as would happen if we brought back the old armor system. im happy that the new lmg is chambered in an intermediate cartridge instead of .308, and im grateful that damage scales with caliber in pd3 instead of a newly added 9mm arbitrarily dealing 100+ base damage like pd2. i _dont want_ a 5.7x28mm that can magically pierce steel plate or a minigun that im somehow carrying enough power and ammo to feed tucked into my waistband in payday 3, im just having fun as wolf with 2 flashbangs and a dream on final charge.
my problem with payday 3 is the replayability. bring back preplanning and rng variations to heists and ill play for 2k hours. i like the more serious, less silly themes of this sequel and halo shield armor that breaks in 2 hits would be the catalyst for doodooing all over those themes. the concept art with the clowns fighting on the gold & sharke stairs is how i want the game to feel.
Why compare this to other games outside of the genre when payday TH and payday 2 is perfectly fine for showing what the franchise WAS.
You're just killing time. Keep it short and simple bro.
Can someone please explain to me why each armor has the arbitrary amount of downs attached to it? I think some of them make no sense xD
Mostly to try and balance them out, lesser chunked armour has more downs, more chunked armour has less in order to compensate for having less chunks
so true bestie
The fact that the armor is so bad. Running adaptive armor with the skill that automatically recharges a chunk of armor when you grab ammo is essential to all builds. Even then your armor chunk is not entirely safe unless you also abuse adrenaline from medic bags (which i do in every build). The fact you have to do all this for the armor system to feel somewhat decent is not okay
Love the video but gotta disagree on this one (obviously, I'm an armor system enjoyer). Payday 3 does not punish you for "just existing," it punishes you for not utilizing all your tools. Throwables, staggers, drawing aggro, taking human shields, marking enemies, etc. Obviously, you cannot always be three steps ahead of enemies and you should expect to take some armor damage, but it just creates more pressure on heisters to finish the objectives. That is why the devs intentionally made PD3's Cook Off not infinite.
This is not to say you don't have legitimate criticisms of the mechanic. OVK really struggles with not making trading hostages OP and the helpfulness of the tools you can use are not intuitive. Also, playing solo really sucks for armor builds.
Good video overall I've been playing PD3 more as of recent and personally have found fun with standard lining over adaptive armour along with adrenaline it's certainly shifted my enjoyment on the game once I took on a playstyle you'd see in PAYDAY The Heist with my friends.