A small point, but tanks of any kind don't change trim as they empty; the whole tank gets more buoyant. The reason the back end goes up is the weight of the first stage holding the front down. But the net effect is you will be losing 2kg or whatever from the position of the centre of the tank as you burn the gas. I agree about the effect of the wet suit with depth and you can compensate for that with how much you extend your legs and where you hold your arms. But for me the best way with this sort of rig is to use a wing-style BC, so the lift is right with the cylinder, and as much as possible concentrate the weight around your centre of buoyancy. It takes a bit of playing about but trim pockets and a backplate help and when you get it right you'll find your trim stays pretty good at any pitch or roll angle you happen to be in. If I use a weight belt I put the weights at the back for this reason. Well, it works for me.
I wish I had seen this before my first dive on vacation. Everyone told me I just needed practice and with time I would get it. In the mean time I would yo yo up and down becoming so frustrated I could not enjoy the experience and thought I would just have to give up. No matter how much weight I put on or off, I would have spurts of time when things seemed fine then I would yo yo. Can’t wait to experiment with arms and legs as you demonstrated. Also it seemed to me my center of gravity was off. I put some weights on a belt at my back on my 6th dive. It was then a great experience. I am a fat old lady nearing 71, I really would like to learn how to do this quickly since I don’t know how long I will be able to do this. Thanks for your help. Looking forward to next video.
Always love the trim talk! In my opinion, it's a point where even just having an interest in doing it right already puts you way ahead of most divers! For me, one of the best tips I got from my Fundies instructor (really, I can talk about that course for hours and be the only one in the room not bored!) was to squeeze the buttocks, as if there's a 50€ bill between them that you really want to keep. That goes a long way in preventing the knees from dropping. And knee drop means shifting weight and often (though not in this case, but just mentioning it anyway) upturned fin tips which means even more lost balance. Squeezing the buttocks to help keep a straight line from shoulders to knees brought a ton of rest in my static trim :)
Hey Jim, good video highlighting just how much work is required to get into proper trim! Do not assume it'll just happen... I'm tall, skinny and dense (no not stupid, just not much fat) and having been a reasonably decent mountain bike cross country and Triathlon racer, i have a big tidal volume for my frame. This makes me rather leg heavy when in a wetsuit. As a result i actually have some specific weights permanently attached to my BCD/backplate to trim me out. On is a 0.5kg weight right up on the upper handle, ie pretty much at my neck height, in order to push my upper torso downwards. As you mention i try to avoid a low slung weight belt, and install weight in cyl trim pockets and in integrated positions that are higher up. One thing worth checking is that for any non-ditchable weighting, that you can empty your bcd completely and still swim up from 5m. As long as your overall weighting is just enough to compensate for the loss of breathing gas during the dive (say 3kg delta with a single cyl setup) then this really isn't too hard for the average swimmer ime.
Maybe working the modified frog kick? Would keep his legs in a locked position and force him to also really focus on turning the fins towards each other. You feel a big power difference when you do that one correctly. My biggest issue was in trying to hover. My instructor finally got it through my head to relax. I was so focused on trying to be in that “perfect position” and so tense that it’s impossible to sit still in water. These things come with practice, though.
As a very new certified diver(certified card came in last week!) nope😎 but I am anticipating any additional helpful advice. I will be in a back inflate tomorrow in a pool since all I have tried are the jacket style. Most people I have listened to or watched who are very experienced seem to prefer back inflate. I like the idea of why it could be easier for neutral buoyancy. I love the idea of working the arms and legs more. Great information for me👍
@@DiscoveryDiversTokyo Hello Jim. I did the actual pool test today using a Zeagle Ranger back inflate. I can tell it’s what I want for my first BCD. It doesn’t have to be a Zeagle but back inflate for sure. I was able to get in the horizontal position and stay that way pretty easily. I also tested it at the surface with too much air, not enough air and then found the right amount. I did all that to go from each extreme to feel the differences in each situation and it’s not difficult to lean back a little and have my legs out front without feeling like my upper body was being pushed foreword. Of course I was in a calm pool and not in the ocean with some chop. This model has most everything I was looking for in a back inflate. I wanted the cummerbund and a few pockets. This model has that along with enough D rings to snap a few items to as needed. The pockets for me would be for some trauma shears and maybe a small light and they were low enough for me to use without looking as I tried both sides while in the water. I believe this model can be outfitted to twin tanks as needed so it looks like a good one to get to allow me to advance without another good investment. Speaking of a tank…it had two tight fitting straps that took a little more work than what I have used with the metal clasp Scuba Pro BCD’s (which are very easy in my book) but it wasn’t a deal breaker and it may even be better since it had two straps on the tank? What I didn’t care for was the weight dump apparatus. I watched a few videos of how it works when releasing it and how to re-cock the system. The weights definitely drop as they should and I think it is easier to just pull the one red t handle but it’s just different than what I have seen. Is it better or worse? I really don’t know I guess experience and preferences come into play there. In the end it was great and I will look at a few other back inflate BCD’s. This one is pretty tempting but I have seen an Aqua Lung and Scuba Pro I want to look into. Any suggestions or pros and cons on an model would be appreciated. I’m sure if I picked one of the brands I mentioned and it had the cummerbund and a few pockets I would be happy. 👌 Don
Not a diver but want to eventually. Really interesting man thanks for the vid! You look very professional in the water and it’s highly informative to observe.
IMHO Adam’s trim is considered to be pretty decent already especially with a jacket styled BC. Changing to dive with backplate + donut styled BC will probably improve his trim.
Hey, what’s the setup at 5:32 that your finger tips are disappearing into what I thought was a background? Thought I was seeing things. Or, not seeing things?!
Hi Jim, hope you are still in Japan and life is good to you. I watched this video with big interest as I am an NAUI instructor here in Switzerland. I really like what you are telling and the part where you show that when stretch you legs, they go down. Here a little question. If you do this but you are head heavy shouldn't your head sink? I have a student here in Switzerland who has a similar situation, but has a dry suit and I try also to move the weights around on backplate based wing. One of the issue in my case was definitely also that he has also had too much weight with him, which we believe has also an influence in our case on his position in the water (we did a weight check at 5 meters / 15 ft at the end of the dive and he still sunk). We will try to put less weight in his front pocket and leave the same quantity in his trim pocket in the back on our next dive. What is your opinion or do you have an other advice? Look forward hearing from you. Greetings from Switzerland Alex
HI ALex. Thanks for the Q. Regarding this Q, "If you do this but you are head heavy shouldn't your head sink?" in a wetsuit, your legs will go heavy and sink. Try it out yourself. For the drysuit case you are referencing, is this person still head-heavy? If head-heavy in drysuit, I'd consider heavier fins, look at weight placement as you are, and look at tank choice. When I'm in drysuit, my dream tank is 14L steel for the lenght, but almost never possible in my area. Short, heavy tanks like a 10L steel (short) are the worst choice for someone with a head heavy trim issue. You are on teh right track, to first get the weighiting right, then distribute that weight in the best way possible to achieve passive trim that is as good as possible. From there, the diver will have to manipulate, arm/leg psotion and adjust as air is breathed down from the tank (as taht balance will change over the dive).
Equipment: Totally understand he's using rental. But if it's possible to get a wing BC, that will immediately solve a good part of the issue. (And a "pool boot" on an aluminum tank?) Placing the tank higher up is one way to help with trim (awesome point there Jim), however, I would say (just my own opinion) the primary reason for tank positioning is "self rescue" (ability to reach and manipulate the tank valve). Some people do have issues with weight belts (I never have, but each person's body composition is different, and wearing that much neoprene doesn't help), so solid point on using the trim pockets. And I'd say a drysuit (and learning how to use it--i.e. just enough air to "stop the squeeze" and nothing more) could help greatly... However, he's renting, so that's a different matter. Technique: He could definitely use some work on that frog kick (top of the fin is pushing instead of the bottom of the fin as it should be), but time can fix that. Perhaps he could try spending some time laying on the ground on a wide piece of wood? Place it perpendicular to the torso and lay on it to become a human teeter-totter, then spend some time moving your arms and legs together as a single unit to get a good feel for your center of gravity and finding balance... Once you have a feel for it, practice in the water. It might be helpful, it might not. But worth a try. :) Just remember that the "9-Hour Rule" always applies for all motor skills. The average human being requires roughly "9 hours" for the brain to learn and instill any new motor skill. This rule applies to everything... From learning to hover a helicopter while in IGE, to developing perfectly neutral trim underwater. So the more you practice, the better, and roughly around the 9 hour mark all of a sudden your brain will suddenly have an "Ah HA!" moment and everything will just click.
He has a crap ton of buoyancy in his chest area with his weight belt around his waist. So it is only natural that he will be chest floaty. The trim pockets will help, but a heavy steel backplate with a weighted STA will probably be the best solution. That moves most of the weight from his waist up to where most of his buoyancy is. Keep a few pounds on the weight belt (or pouches on the BPW belt) as ditchable weight for safety reasons.
I am learning now and one of my problems when up at surf level I see so many guys that can stay upright no problems, it's so much work for me to stay upright, I want to seem to go face first while floating on the surface. Any ideas?
He appeared to be overweighted by 6-10lbs, based on an online calculator that I tested and trust. Getting the weight right will solve the yoyo problem. I know. I had been there.
If you put weights on the cylinder, it cannot be called trim. The trim balance should only be the principle of the seesaw, and the center of gravity should be concentrated only on the waist. If you want a nice trim, carry a stone in your hand. Here is a video that uses weight pockets, heavy jet fins, and 5mm wetsuits only on the waist of the aluminum backplate and maintains the trim without using a Fin kick at a depth of 25m. Also, a diver in a video edited with a photo or a slow video cannot see the trim ability.. You don't know whether that posture is maintained for a few minutes or not, and if you go forward, anyone will get a good posture. watch it You have to practice to trim.
How do you even stand up with 22 pounds of lead on you? I dive tropical waters with 6-7 pounds. Of course his fins don't get "floaty" at the end of a dive (why would they...they haven't changed) his almost empty tank has become floaty. Quarry diving...lots of interesting rocks I guess 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Actually Dutch Springs quarry is a very well known quarry in Pennsylvania that has been used by divers all over the northeast US for training for years. Has a fire truck, school bus, and even an airplane sunk in there! So lots to see!
Does anyone else have constructive tips for improving trim? Let's hear them.
A small point, but tanks of any kind don't change trim as they empty; the whole tank gets more buoyant. The reason the back end goes up is the weight of the first stage holding the front down. But the net effect is you will be losing 2kg or whatever from the position of the centre of the tank as you burn the gas.
I agree about the effect of the wet suit with depth and you can compensate for that with how much you extend your legs and where you hold your arms.
But for me the best way with this sort of rig is to use a wing-style BC, so the lift is right with the cylinder, and as much as possible concentrate the weight around your centre of buoyancy. It takes a bit of playing about but trim pockets and a backplate help and when you get it right you'll find your trim stays pretty good at any pitch or roll angle you happen to be in. If I use a weight belt I put the weights at the back for this reason. Well, it works for me.
Thanks for adding your thoughts and experience, Tim.
I wish I had seen this before my first dive on vacation. Everyone told me I just needed practice and with time I would get it. In the mean time I would yo yo up and down becoming so frustrated I could not enjoy the experience and thought I would just have to give up. No matter how much weight I put on or off, I would have spurts of time when things seemed fine then I would yo yo. Can’t wait to experiment with arms and legs as you demonstrated. Also it seemed to me my center of gravity was off. I put some weights on a belt at my back on my 6th dive. It was then a great experience. I am a fat old lady nearing 71, I really would like to learn how to do this quickly since I don’t know how long I will be able to do this. Thanks for your help. Looking forward to next video.
Always love the trim talk! In my opinion, it's a point where even just having an interest in doing it right already puts you way ahead of most divers! For me, one of the best tips I got from my Fundies instructor (really, I can talk about that course for hours and be the only one in the room not bored!) was to squeeze the buttocks, as if there's a 50€ bill between them that you really want to keep. That goes a long way in preventing the knees from dropping. And knee drop means shifting weight and often (though not in this case, but just mentioning it anyway) upturned fin tips which means even more lost balance. Squeezing the buttocks to help keep a straight line from shoulders to knees brought a ton of rest in my static trim :)
Thanks for the great tip, Ron 👍
Hey Jim, good video highlighting just how much work is required to get into proper trim! Do not assume it'll just happen... I'm tall, skinny and dense (no not stupid, just not much fat) and having been a reasonably decent mountain bike cross country and Triathlon racer, i have a big tidal volume for my frame. This makes me rather leg heavy when in a wetsuit. As a result i actually have some specific weights permanently attached to my BCD/backplate to trim me out. On is a 0.5kg weight right up on the upper handle, ie pretty much at my neck height, in order to push my upper torso downwards. As you mention i try to avoid a low slung weight belt, and install weight in cyl trim pockets and in integrated positions that are higher up.
One thing worth checking is that for any non-ditchable weighting, that you can empty your bcd completely and still swim up from 5m. As long as your overall weighting is just enough to compensate for the loss of breathing gas during the dive (say 3kg delta with a single cyl setup) then this really isn't too hard for the average swimmer ime.
Great point about the balanced rig, Max. I’d love to see a vid of your trim work. Sounds like you are working with an interesting set of variables.
Maybe working the modified frog kick? Would keep his legs in a locked position and force him to also really focus on turning the fins towards each other. You feel a big power difference when you do that one correctly.
My biggest issue was in trying to hover. My instructor finally got it through my head to relax. I was so focused on trying to be in that “perfect position” and so tense that it’s impossible to sit still in water. These things come with practice, though.
Some great points here, Wes. Thanks for contributing to the conversation 👍
I agree with the suggestions for him to try a steel BP/W (with weight pockets added) to see if he is more comfortable, and secure that loose SPG!
I found the backplate and wing with a steel backplate was the key to balance my trim.
As a very new certified diver(certified card came in last week!) nope😎 but I am anticipating any additional helpful advice. I will be in a back inflate tomorrow in a pool since all I have tried are the jacket style. Most people I have listened to or watched who are very experienced seem to prefer back inflate. I like the idea of why it could be easier for neutral buoyancy. I love the idea of working the arms and legs more. Great information for me👍
Let us know how it turns out! Please post up there again after your pool.
@@DiscoveryDiversTokyo Hello Jim. I did the actual pool test today using a Zeagle Ranger back inflate. I can tell it’s what I want for my first BCD. It doesn’t have to be a Zeagle but back inflate for sure. I was able to get in the horizontal position and stay that way pretty easily. I also tested it at the surface with too much air, not enough air and then found the right amount. I did all that to go from each extreme to feel the differences in each situation and it’s not difficult to lean back a little and have my legs out front without feeling like my upper body was being pushed foreword. Of course I was in a calm pool and not in the ocean with some chop.
This model has most everything I was looking for in a back inflate. I wanted the cummerbund and a few pockets. This model has that along with enough D rings to snap a few items to as needed. The pockets for me would be for some trauma shears and maybe a small light and they were low enough for me to use without looking as I tried both sides while in the water.
I believe this model can be outfitted to twin tanks as needed so it looks like a good one to get to allow me to advance without another good investment. Speaking of a tank…it had two tight fitting straps that took a little more work than what I have used with the metal clasp Scuba Pro BCD’s (which are very easy in my book) but it wasn’t a deal breaker and it may even be better since it had two straps on the tank?
What I didn’t care for was the weight dump apparatus. I watched a few videos of how it works when releasing it and how to re-cock the system. The weights definitely drop as they should and I think it is easier to just pull the one red t handle but it’s just different than what I have seen. Is it better or worse? I really don’t know I guess experience and preferences come into play there.
In the end it was great and I will look at a few other back inflate BCD’s. This one is pretty tempting but I have seen an Aqua Lung and Scuba Pro I want to look into. Any suggestions or pros and cons on an model would be appreciated. I’m sure if I picked one of the brands I mentioned and it had the cummerbund and a few pockets I would be happy. 👌
Don
Not a diver but want to eventually. Really interesting man thanks for the vid! You look very professional in the water and it’s highly informative to observe.
Thanks, Nick 👍
IMHO Adam’s trim is considered to be pretty decent already especially with a jacket styled BC. Changing to dive with backplate + donut styled BC will probably improve his trim.
Hey, what’s the setup at 5:32 that your finger tips are disappearing into what I thought was a background?
Thought I was seeing things. Or, not seeing things?!
Hi Jim,
hope you are still in Japan and life is good to you.
I watched this video with big interest as I am an NAUI instructor here in Switzerland. I really like what you are telling and the part where you show that when stretch you legs, they go down. Here a little question. If you do this but you are head heavy shouldn't your head sink? I have a student here in Switzerland who has a similar situation, but has a dry suit and I try also to move the weights around on backplate based wing.
One of the issue in my case was definitely also that he has also had too much weight with him, which we believe has also an influence in our case on his position in the water (we did a weight check at 5 meters / 15 ft at the end of the dive and he still sunk). We will try to put less weight in his front pocket and leave the same quantity in his trim pocket in the back on our next dive.
What is your opinion or do you have an other advice?
Look forward hearing from you.
Greetings from Switzerland
Alex
HI ALex. Thanks for the Q. Regarding this Q, "If you do this but you are head heavy shouldn't your head sink?" in a wetsuit, your legs will go heavy and sink. Try it out yourself. For the drysuit case you are referencing, is this person still head-heavy? If head-heavy in drysuit, I'd consider heavier fins, look at weight placement as you are, and look at tank choice. When I'm in drysuit, my dream tank is 14L steel for the lenght, but almost never possible in my area. Short, heavy tanks like a 10L steel (short) are the worst choice for someone with a head heavy trim issue. You are on teh right track, to first get the weighiting right, then distribute that weight in the best way possible to achieve passive trim that is as good as possible. From there, the diver will have to manipulate, arm/leg psotion and adjust as air is breathed down from the tank (as taht balance will change over the dive).
Equipment:
Totally understand he's using rental. But if it's possible to get a wing BC, that will immediately solve a good part of the issue. (And a "pool boot" on an aluminum tank?)
Placing the tank higher up is one way to help with trim (awesome point there Jim), however, I would say (just my own opinion) the primary reason for tank positioning is "self rescue" (ability to reach and manipulate the tank valve).
Some people do have issues with weight belts (I never have, but each person's body composition is different, and wearing that much neoprene doesn't help), so solid point on using the trim pockets.
And I'd say a drysuit (and learning how to use it--i.e. just enough air to "stop the squeeze" and nothing more) could help greatly... However, he's renting, so that's a different matter.
Technique:
He could definitely use some work on that frog kick (top of the fin is pushing instead of the bottom of the fin as it should be), but time can fix that.
Perhaps he could try spending some time laying on the ground on a wide piece of wood? Place it perpendicular to the torso and lay on it to become a human teeter-totter, then spend some time moving your arms and legs together as a single unit to get a good feel for your center of gravity and finding balance... Once you have a feel for it, practice in the water. It might be helpful, it might not. But worth a try. :)
Just remember that the "9-Hour Rule" always applies for all motor skills. The average human being requires roughly "9 hours" for the brain to learn and instill any new motor skill. This rule applies to everything... From learning to hover a helicopter while in IGE, to developing perfectly neutral trim underwater. So the more you practice, the better, and roughly around the 9 hour mark all of a sudden your brain will suddenly have an "Ah HA!" moment and everything will just click.
Great comment, AJ 👍
He has a crap ton of buoyancy in his chest area with his weight belt around his waist. So it is only natural that he will be chest floaty. The trim pockets will help, but a heavy steel backplate with a weighted STA will probably be the best solution. That moves most of the weight from his waist up to where most of his buoyancy is. Keep a few pounds on the weight belt (or pouches on the BPW belt) as ditchable weight for safety reasons.
You’re right, TPL…I hate to use BP/W as every answer 😜
I am learning now and one of my problems when up at surf level I see so many guys that can stay upright no problems, it's so much work for me to stay upright, I want to seem to go face first while floating on the surface. Any ideas?
He appeared to be overweighted by 6-10lbs, based on an online calculator that I tested and trust. Getting the weight right will solve the yoyo problem. I know. I had been there.
RK3s aren't negative...they're positive, unless they're the HD model.
How is that leak not bothering you? lol
Drysuit, steel tanks, jetfins... fixed
If you put weights on the cylinder, it cannot be called trim. The trim balance should only be the principle of the seesaw, and the center of gravity should be concentrated only on the waist.
If you want a nice trim, carry a stone in your hand.
Here is a video that uses weight pockets, heavy jet fins, and 5mm wetsuits only on the waist of the aluminum backplate and maintains the trim without using a Fin kick at a depth of 25m.
Also, a diver in a video edited with a photo or a slow video cannot see the trim ability.. You don't know whether that posture is maintained for a few minutes or not, and if you go forward, anyone will get a good posture. watch it You have to practice to trim.
How do you even stand up with 22 pounds of lead on you? I dive tropical waters with 6-7 pounds. Of course his fins don't get "floaty" at the end of a dive (why would they...they haven't changed) his almost empty tank has become floaty. Quarry diving...lots of interesting rocks I guess 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Actually Dutch Springs quarry is a very well known quarry in Pennsylvania that has been used by divers all over the northeast US for training for years. Has a fire truck, school bus, and even an airplane sunk in there! So lots to see!