Criticisms of the Solutrean Hypothesis
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Were the first Native Americans from Europe? Probably not.
Sources:
Boulanger, Matthew T., and Metin I. Eren. “On the Inferred Age and Origin of Lithic Bi-Points from the Eastern Seaboard and Their Relevance to the Pleistocene Peopling of North America.” American Antiquity, vol. 80, no. 1, 2015, pp. 134-145., doi:10.7183/0002-7316.79.4.134134.
Eren, Metin I., et al. “More On The Rumor Of ‘Intentional Overshot Flaking’ And The Purported Ice-Age Atlantic Crossing.” Lithic Technology, vol. 39, no. 1, 2014, pp. 55-63., doi:10.1179/0197726113z.00000000033.
Fagundes, Nelson J.r., et al. “Mitochondrial Population Genomics Supports a Single Pre-Clovis Origin with a Coastal Route for the Peopling of the Americas.” The American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 82, no. 3, 2008, pp. 583-592., doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2007.11.013.
Lazaridis I, Patterson N, Mittnik A, et al. Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans. Nature. 2014;513(7518):409-413. doi:10.1038/nature13673
Meltzer, David J. “Kennewick Man: Coming to Closure.” Antiquity, vol. 89, no. 348, 2015, pp. 1485-1493., doi:10.15184/aqy.2015.160.
O'brien, Michael J., et al. “On Thin Ice: Problems with Stanford and Bradley's Proposed Solutrean Colonisation of North America.” Antiquity, vol. 88, no. 340, 2014, pp. 606-613., doi:10.1017/s0003598x0010122x.
Posth, Cosimo et al. Reconstructing the Deep Population History of Central and South America
Cell , Volume 175 , Issue 5 , 1185 - 1197.e22
Phillips, Kelly M. “Solutrean Seal Hunters?” Journal of Anthropological Research, vol. 70, no. 4, 2014, pp. 573-600., doi:10.3998/jar.0521004.0070.404.
Raff, Jennifer A., and Deborah A. Bolnick. “Does Mitochondrial Haplogroup X Indicate Ancient Trans-Atlantic Migration to the Americas? A Critical Re-Evaluation.” PaleoAmerica, vol. 1, no. 4, 2015, pp. 297-304., doi:10.1179/2055556315z.00000000040.
Rasmussen, Morten, et al. “The Ancestry and Affiliations of Kennewick Man.” Nature, 2015, doi:10.1038/nature14625.
Sanchez, G., et al. “Human (Clovis)-Gomphothere (Cuvieronius Sp.) Association 13,390 Calibrated YBP in Sonora, Mexico.” Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, vol. 111, no. 30, 2014, pp. 10972-10977., doi:10.1073/pnas.1404546111.
Straus, Lawrence Guy. “Solutrean Settlement of North America? A Review of Reality.” American Antiquity, vol. 65, no. 2, 2000, pp. 219-226., doi:10.2307/2694056.
Westley, Kieran, and Justin Dix. “The Solutrean Atlantic Hypothesis: A View from the Ocean.” Journal of the North Atlantic, vol. 1, 2008, pp. 85-98., doi:10.3721/j080527.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
www.stefanmilo.com
Historysmilo
historysmilo
I found out whilst editing that Dennis Stanford, one of the main archaeologists behind the Solutrean Hypothesis, recently died. Although I disagree with him and know very little about the man, he was the director of the Paleoindian program at the Smithsonian Institute and I don't believe you could get that position if you weren't an accomplished archaeologist. So rest in peace Mr. Stanford, thank you for your contributions to our understanding of the human past.
I am no scientist,but have hunted and fished,the narrower the blade the smaller the prey,fish etc,bigger blades,larger prey,suggests coastal and inland tribes,great topic,nice back drop,cool video,thanks for sharing.
1)Distribution of Haplogroup X seems more suggestive of Minoan or Phoenician contact related to Michigan copper (not proven but I think possible) than an earlier Solutrean. 2)Polynesian explorers searched against the current to facilitate the return journey and what's floating in the current tells you something about what lies ahead. Canoeing upstream is the way to plan a day trip. 3)During the last ice age, islands now seamounts might well have been available for island hopping. If there were Solutreans paddling about on the Atlantic, a Maori lifestyle would make as much sense as an Innuit. 4)There might not have been any survivors if whatever wiped out horses, camels, and mammoth was a severe enough catastrophe. 5)Also, if we haven't fully sequenced their genome, how do we even know they were what we now call European and not more nearly North African? It's all speculation and your guess is as good as any. Loved the video.
@@joeampolo42 Great Orm Copper mine dates!!
Sorry to hear that. I must admit though on my last trip I noticed some very weird theories presented with undue confidence. . . In particular it presents the Jomon-Valdivia hypothesis of the diffusion of pottery technology from Japan to Ecuador as if it is a widely accepted hypothesis, when it is instead extremely marginal. In fact after seeing this same exhibit as a child I had long believed this to be the orthodoxy, and only after revisiting as an adult and then looking into the question on my own did I learn it is not.
That's interesting, I haven't personally been. I'm surprised to hear that about an institution with such a prestigious reputation.
9:51 You have to admit, that bust is a dead ringer for Jean-Luc Picard.
Obviously he traveled back in time to defeat the Borg.
HaHa yep :-)
Close , but no cigar.
Jim chatters said he was watching star trek when he made the bust. And owsley was pushing an idea, he told his sculpture creator how he wanted it to look and not how the reconstructionist wanted to create it. He literally told her step by step how to make it look like an Ainu.
Well, Europeans do have some Native American ancestry. From the Indoeuropean conquest.
Mal'ta Boy and ANE
Stone only breaks in so many ways. There are a limited number of styles that make useful tools. Arrowheads, for instance, can be triangles, side notched, corner notched, etc, with a pointy end. There are only so many ways to knap a point. I use outre passe and I can flute a point, however, fluting is risky, so I rarely do it. Outre passe is a real time saver, so I often employ it. It has nothing to do with culture. It has only to do with the materials used. We might say that all hammered bronze and copper must be related, because it is all hammered to shape, but we know better.
John Barber almost all people do it as either a hobby or for experimental archaeology
@John Barber I learned knapping from a guy who makes super high end cosmetic surgery tools. Obsidian creates an edge that is finer than the finest metal surface and leaves zero scars. Obsidian scalpels are also highly valued for brain surgery. Obsidian leaves cuts at a microcellular level that forged metal cannot compare with.
When the Soviet Union opened up after the Cold War archaeologist went to look for evidence of Clovis but they didn't find any, spear technology was different
💯 there is evidence of knapped stone tools going back, what 3,000,000 ya+
@@anthonyproffitt5341 and?
I’ve heard you say in many of your vids how you’re “not really an archaeologist”, etc., but I think you’re a fantastic educator and video creator. And, you bring this information to so many of us who otherwise wouldn’t get to learn about it, so thank you. This is one of my absolute favorite RUclips channels
I personally listen to him for a variety of reasons, but this is actually a big main reason. He does this out of love and genuine interest, not do to any political bs in his position or standing.
@@thalljoben3551 out of love? I think money has something to do with it.
@@artymowski What's wrong with earning money from the thing you love whilst educating the interested masses with real knowledge? Is this guy looks like an "influencer" or whatever to you?
“It’s a very popular theory...”
Really?
“... outside of academic circles.”
Yeah, thought so.
Its backed by some highly reputable archeologists in the field
Bruce Boyden It is easy to cherry-pick those examples because nobody has numbers on how many thousands, if not millions, of theories just like K-T or this one were treated exactly the same way and DIDN’T turn out to be true. The history channel doesn’t make 10,000 “documentaries” a year about fringe theories that were discounted by academia and professionals for lack of evidence, rigor, and plausibility ... and then never got more likely and faded away. This pervasive idea that “the establishment” is constantly suppressing the genius loner (for what reason?) is based entirely on a very natural, very human, but VERY wrong intuitive understanding of the actual numbers involved.
It’s very much like a house fire making the news one night, and then another and another one the next two nights - it “feels” like something significant is happening in your area: why the sudden increase in fires? There MUST be _something_ there, right? But how would it seem if every single night for a year the news spent the same amount of screen time *on every single house* that DID NOT catch fire? Every night?
And similarly, every single fringe theory that no reasonable informed person would find plausible or likely (given the evidence) but that turns out to be true, is given lots of attention and notice; reasonably so, IMO; it IS a big deal when it happens. But the problem is they then carry vastly more weight in our instinctual assessments of likelihood and probability of something being significant; and most important is it radically skews our belief in the likelihood that the next situation we encounter that is similar will turn out to be the same.
@@ScottStratton Very well said Mr Stratton, I agree with you wholeheartedly.
- Sir fuckshit III
I disagree, it has to stand on its own two feet. The evidence for it sucks. Just a couple of vaguely similar some tools. Not exactly overwhelming compared to the wealth of evidence for the Asian origins of native americans.
@Bruce Boyden That proves exactly nothing. Og the hunter proposed thunder was caused by angry sky spirits. How did that work out?
I ate from a bowl this morning, and from what I've heard there were people eating from bowls in the bronze age Hittite empire thousands of years ago. Clearly the bronze age Hittites are extremely closely culturally related to 21st century Californians.
I thought the Bowl People died out long ago - obviously there is a remnant population still extant.
@@rmcnabb #BigbowlLives
You may be on to something there. Add in all the CA fires, and there could be a Zoroastrian connection.
You have a whole heap of their genes, without a doubt. The cultural part has some truth to it, also.
But your bowl hypothesis has a massive hole in the bottom. Sorry. :P
Well as it turns out.... putting your bowl aside, most people in America will share haplogroups with people from Anatolia. Anatolia is in Europe... we now call it Turkey. And most of the population of the united states, Canada, Mexico and south America arrived from Europe starting in the 16th century. In fact many native Americans will too given the interbreeding and admixture that has occurred in that time.
But what you won't find obviously is anyone from Europe, in the ground, and dated to 10k years ago that share the same haplogroups.
You will of course find bowls... bowls are a thing... not a recent thing either since the earliest pottery found in the world is dated to 20k years ago in china. Basically the earliest china, is from China.
Oh, good. For a moment I was afraid you were going to criticize the Soultrain Hypothesis.
As a person with difficulty reading, this made me laugh. That’s how i read it.
.
it's unfortunate you say this cuz that's actually next week's topic
Thats what this video needed. More soultrain dancers. Got to spice up the dry info and presentation.
I love my own rebuttal to him (am I arrogant?) But yeah, this was more PRO Solutrean than anti.
0:22 it's like you're in a Bob Ross painting come to life
One thing that has always interested me is the thought that the coastlines of those times are now miles out to sea,most traces of early visitors would therefore be lost assuming that they followed the coastlines,which would have been the best places to forage.
We can do underwater archeology, Doggerland has produced some amazing finds, but I agree it does make it more challenging.
I admit I tend to agree with Stefan here but I am always interested when new evidence comes to light that changes how we view the past- so I would be delighted if something astonishing was found!
Yep. Hard to refute DNA evidence now a days. Throws a lot of theories out the window.
Upon closer inspection the X haplogroup does not support the Solutrean hypothesis. I highly recommend reading the source by Raff in the description.
Flim Flam I will give it a stab- distantly related, not closely related. that implies separation over longer time than your hypothesis allows.
original population splits into western moving and eastern moving segments..
explore the eastern groups splitting into the group's that become Australian Abos. and similar- they split south pretty early, while Siberian and amerind split pretty late. you get some founder effects in the smaller segments, verses the farmer population radiation from the near east..... the larger population has a much larger spectrum, so they have an analog from the shared original population that has deep relationship with the amerind population.
please understand that is a butchered tiny try at explaining it.
@Flim Flam Gosh perhaps you should let the Algonquins who live in Maniwaki QC (Kitigan Zibi Anishinabeg) that they don't exist. I'm sure they would be delighted to know that. www.anishinabenation.ca/en/the-algonquin-communities/kitigan-zibi/
You might be thinking of the Wendake Hurons who were driven out of their lands by the Iroquois, and now live near Quebec City. Unfortunately for your hypothesis they are very much alive too. www.huron-wendat.qc.ca/en/
@R Bray "people in brazil of australopithecus origin"?What in the name of science are you talking about?
Recent DNA evidence has disproven many wacky ideas, such as the black ancient Egyptians hypothesis. Turns out ancient Egyptians had less sub-Saharan African admixture than modern Egyptians. The black Hebrews hypothesis is also completely annihilated by DNA evidence, which shows that ancient Hebrews (or Canaanites) were all without fail typical olive toned Mediterranean people with zero sub-Saharan African admixture.
The Solutrean Hypothesis refuted by the Hanky-Panky Hypothesis
No one travels all the way across America and doesn't get laid. Source: Road Trip
@@StefanMilo yes they got laid, but where slaughtered later by other groups. You must research the history of patagonia. ruclips.net/video/CmxhFgpIacI/видео.html
This message sponsored by @Nandos
I love your channel man. I'm subscribed to like 1500 channels and yours is one of the few i check faithfully. Chillest history guy on youtube with vast amounts of knowledge. Hats off
The problem is, suggesting that a few people may have over the years made it to the Americas from Europe isn't crazy, or inherently racist, but it HAS been co-opted, popularized, and grossly exaggerated by white supremacists, racists, and conspiracists in general. I love exploring outside the box historical theories, but when we delve into the unknown parts of history, we have to recognize that some of the people who support those theories may be doing so for alternative purposes.
Unfortunately they often are. It is sad that we even have to check if a hypothesis about prehistoric people could be fueled by racist ideologies which always have an answer in mind and are trying to find a way to get there.
It makes content and debates like this frustrating since everybody knows why we are taking this so seriously and tiptoeing around the fact that probably most of the support for this theory comes from people with a distorted sense of humanity and „Race“ while it should just be a scientific debate.
Denial of one's culture creates this. Whites were here long before the Asians and to be told that this holds no significance to a people, shows why the supposed "white supremacists/racists (which aren't specifically white)" are actually in the right. Your day will come.
I am 68 years old. Have lived in many different states. I have never met a " White Supremacists " . Nor do I know of anyone who has. I'm sure their are some. But unlike jesse Smallett I've never met one ?
You sound triggered lmao.
Im not understanding how this theory is branded "racist" by historians. No one is saying the Solutreans' *are* Native Americans, all they're sayinf is that they could have traveled there. And even then Solutrean people culture weren't European, "Europeans" didnt even exist as a culture for another 18,000 years.
The reason that that one data point re. population bottleneck referenced only women is that the researchers studying that phenomenon likely were measuring mitochondrial DNA (genetic information inherited only thru mothers)
Yup that's it
This is not an argument I know anything about, but judging by the evidence you've provided here it seems like people using evidence to fit a theory rather than developing a theory from evidence. I LOLed at the Nandos joke.
Storm of Steel Wargaming you should check out my comment. There’s evidence that 1. Mediterranean’s 2. Indigenous Europeans and 3. People related to aboriginal Australians, nigrotos, and Dravidians made it to the America’s
Gray Benton: OK -- please provide credible, indisputable sources for these claims presented here.
Shruggz Da Str8-Faced Clown heck, I’d be happy with just credible, more-likely-than-not evidence. Of course, I would also like to see that sort of thing in a ratio of pro:con better than 1:200.
Scott Stratton do you think that was a clever fucking comment dude? Literally look it up yourself. Polynesians ate sweet potato for thousands of years and called it the nearly the same thing as the western tribes did. The oldest bodies in the America’s are closely related to aboriginal aussies.
Yeah that's a great way of putting it. Stanford himself referred to his idea as "informed speculation".
Debate and discourse is always the way forwards...thanks for uploading.
Linguistic evidences suggests a link between the languages of the Americas and Asia. Along with genetic evidence it seems highly unlikely the solutrean hypothesis is correct.
I'd agree, questionable dates on some stone tools doesn't outweigh the evidence for an Asian origins of native Americans.
Clovis first just says they were first. Asians could've came after in bigger waves and just left more of a mark. Still, that hypothesis is wrong for other reasons. There is much older evidence for human settlement in south america and it seems like it came from the pacific.
@@DrDittle - Clovis first is obsolete. Clovis is much more recent than the actual arrival of Paleoamericans c. 17-18 Ka BP. Today there's no doubt that Clovis is a local development in North America from older established populations.
About that linguistic evidence, you must be talking about the Dene-Yeniseian Hypothesis. I agree that most linguists accept it, but there is a small minority who do criticize this hypothesis, among them Stefan Georg (the guy who wrote the grammar of Ket, a Yeniseain language). Still, it probably is legit as a theory, and personally, I buy it.
@Marrowbones the thing about that is that morphology doesn't trump DNA. People thought Kennewick man was white but the DNA proves otherwise.
Also, there's no evidence that solutreans had ship building ability anywhere comparable to ancient Egypt. They didn't make a single image of any boat and we don't have any sites that have evidence of deep sea fishing.
If the solutrean hypothesis was saying that the odd boat here and there got caught up in something and travelled the Atlantic, that would be one thing, but they're suggesting that entire communities travelled the ocean, that the first widespread American culture was a result of European contact. It's a huge claim for the lack of evidence. Stanford himself cashed his theory "informed speculation".
once again, a beautiful theory savagely pummeled by a brutal gang of facts.
You be funny 😊
@@johnmachuga8811 thank you
Have you heard from the "facts, we don't need no stinkin' facts" groups yet?
@@jackrowe5571 good one! i think they're too tied up in politics right now. thanks for the comment.
Yes I wonder if there's any cave art in the Hudson Canyon, maybe some future scientists can find it
Thanks for bringing real science to a field rife with popular, often motivated by less than noble intents, speculation.
Thanks I appreciate you saying that.
Denis Robert The “Solutrean Hypothesis” reminds me too much of the old “Mound Builders Theory” just another attempt to try to explain away any achievements of Native Americans and give them to a mythical non existent European race.
@@chrisamon4551 they were Paleo Indians from what is now Europe. They more closely resembled middle eastern ppls.
@@StefanMilo you lie
Dude you are doing so well! Very interesting and refreshing content. Keep it up!
Thanks man
@@StefanMilo you’re welcome ☺️
RE: the Surui -- an Australasian connection wouldn't be *too* surprising given linguistic, agricultural, and genetic ties between the Peruvian coast and Polynesians. It'd be interesting to figure out *how* they came to the South American interior, but the historical linguistic range of Tupi-Guarani extends across most of the continent, so it's clear there was a lot of migration even fairly recently in precolumbian history.
I wish to quibble with one of your statements, regarding the fact that broken ice and icebergs are not the preferred habitat for seals. The ice edge is exactly where they like to be. We see this off the coast of Newfoundland every year.
Hey mate, I'm also a dual citizen (US/UK) living in Portland, OR. I appreciate your thoughts and efforts to share knowledge via your channel. I also appreciate your backshots showing home! Please consider using the tulip festivals (if it still happens this year) in a future video.
Thank you for sharing your passion! Excellent work.
If you have ever tried to cross an icy/snowy stretch of ground, that is not very flat, then you very quickly understand that travelling on ice is just about the slowest surface you could ever travel on, even with modern cross-country skis! Conversely, if you have a boat, then you can sail it quickly next to the ice, and pull the boat onto the ice and shelter under it when the weather gets bad. So, not having a contiguous ice sheet is not a hindrance to human travel in either direction.
I am open to the idea of small and repeated unsuccessful migrations of Europeans into America, and now you mention it, I'm also open to some early Americans sailing to Europe, and failing. :P
It is quite possible for small groups of immigrant people to go extinct without interbreeding with local people.
I'm inclined to think early human activity in sailing boats is vastly under-rated and that people made voyages successfully and unsuccessfully to all sorts of places where they didn't last, and who didn't breed with locals.
I'm sad to hear Dennis Stanford died; he was quite convincing in his lectures.
This is the great thing about science, is that we get competing theories to explain our present understanding, and our understanding is always advancing, and just a single discovery can completely debunk one theory in favour of another. It's a fascinating process which progressively trends towards the truth, while never being able to answer so many questions we have.
Unless in the future, we invent a time machine, and can go back to take a look for ourselves! :)
WHAT DO WE WANT? TIME TRAVEL!
WHEN DO WE WANT IT? THAT'S IRRELEVANT!
This mad lad is going around wearing shorts in the snow :o
It was actually a really warm day, I got sun burnt!
How to tell you are speaking to a southern lady? As her if she would wear shorts on a snow bound sunny day.
@@StefanMilo Bright sun, thinner air at higher elevation, plus a lot of reflected light from the snow. Eye protection was a good call.
@Greg Artley Haha, I knew I recognised it! I have only been there in the summer. Lovely place.
In Britain we get like 4 days of Summer so we wear shorts on any sunny day, even if it's below zero.
I really appreciate the no nonsense head to head weighing of the evidence rather than the usual off the cuff seemingly politcally motivated rejection of the theory. Thank you.
The rejection comes from the lack of evidence, the obvious motivations of racists, and a desire to stop wasting time with people who don't understand or respect the burden of proof.
@@annoyed707 many crazy sounding theories can occasionally be correct. I think each should be discussed seriously. Especially one brought forth from the Smithsonian. There are some genetic anomalies in Eastern Native American genetic studies that could point to some small scale stone age western migration into North America from the middle east. So fragments of Stanford's theory could merit more study.
Excellent video. I wish this were the internet standard.
Thanks!
Hi, I just crawled out from under a rock from the state of Maryland near the Chesapeake shore and neeeever once heard of any Solutreans hanging around. Have eaten a lot of blue shell crab though. You should visit one of our Chesapeake crab & beer bars sometime! If you've never picked a dozen steamed crab while drinking beer, don't worry... we Marylanders take great pride in demonstrating the technique till you get the hang of it! It's a life experience must add to your bucket list! ;)
It's all a misunderstanding, no one ever suggested that Soulutreans were ancestors of Native Americans, just that they are pre clovis.
Brian Meyrick: Were you not paying attention to the evidence presented against the hypothesis? Yes, the two cultures did use a similar beginning process with regard to how they engineered their stone tools, but the end products were completely different from one another. There is no strong, indisputable evidence of Salutrean spear points here in the Americas. The authenticity of the point dredged up from the Chesapeake found alongside a Mastodon fossil is in serious question. Also, if there is any migratory connection with regard to the Salutreans, it's more likely to have been the other way around (North America to Europe rather than Europe to North America) due to the North Atlantic land-bridge being a seasonal network of icebergs rather than a solid sheet of ice connecting the continents in addition to the North Atlantic current going in the opposite direction than needed for ambitious sailors coming from Europe.
@@shruggzdastr8-facedclown What evidence, just opinion. Take a look at this and reflect: ruclips.net/video/CFqVyB98H9s/видео.html
i've been hearing about these speartips for years. i'd never seen 'em before. i'm no expert flint knapper, but those don't look anything alike
I'd like to hear more about these early artifacts that some are claiming to be Solutrean-linked. I work in archaeology, and seem to recall in the last couple of years there have been several artifact scatters encountered below Clovis. This is happening all over the country, but especially on the east coast. I've heard calibrated radiocarbon dates from these layers > 20,000 BP. I don't believe any of these guys are out there planting artifacts in eroded shorelines, and I have seen convincing photos of in-situ, leaf-shaped PPKs that are several centimeters beneath Clovis levels.
What is the present consensus, if any, regarding these early finds?
Like a lot of people here, I really enjoy your videos, you remind me of the classroom assistant we never had but needed.
It's so refreshing seeing easy to digest videos on such interesting subjects presented in an honest, and informative way!
We need less hancocks and more Milos!
I love very close to Florence, TX, home of the Gault archeological site, which is dated to before the Clovis culture. I haven’t been, but I’ve read about it. Can you do a video about this? I’m sure you would find it interesting.
But what about the Soultrain Hypothesis?
Did Triangle Sally die during her performance in the 70s?
And if she did, why was she in Beethoven's orchestra on a later date?
Train - hey soul sister?
All good questions awaiting answers from science.
Crater Lake is a beautiful place. My father took us there when I was 4 years old, and I rode around it on my bicycle the Summer after high school. Thanks for that pic.
Im not understanding how this theory is branded "racist" by historians. No one is saying the Solutreans' *are* Native Americans, all they're sayinf is that they could have traveled there. And even then Solutrean people culture weren't European, "Europeans" didnt even exist as a culture for another 18,000 years.
That is indeed a ridiculous backdrop! Love it
Thanks man!
Another great episode. What are your thoughts on the "Mississippians"?
Thanks! Haven't looked into it enough but I know there are a lot of theories around Native American mound builders. I definitely plan on making a video on them at some point, I'd love to film on location though. One mound I may visit soon is Cahokia. I don't believe that these groups had origins outside of native Americans though.
Check out some of Graham Hancocks recent work on Early Americans.
Stefan Milo if you come to St. Louis/Illinois to check out Cahokia, I can potentially host you and give you local information.
@@StefanMilo if you can make it to Cahokia on August 3rd, I will be doing a hide tanning demo then.
@@OkNoBigDeal look at my reply to Stephan Milo. I'll be the guy in full buckskin.
Clovis tool distribution clearly shows the largest population was in the upper east coast. There is more clovis finds in the Delaware peninsula than all the sites west/southwest of the missisippi combined. Because that was continually inhabited and appears to be the focal point of their population, dating there will more likely provide when clovis people LAST lived there not when they first lived there. As far as the X2 DNA, it composes 25% of mtDNA types of the Algonquin people, this is the upper north eastern north american tribes and much lesser amounts among Western and southwest tribes like Sioux and Navajo. So The focal point of clovis tools and X haplogroup both appear to have originated in the upper North east of the US and spread out from there. There is tools made in the same style and method that appear to be part of evolution of clovis tools in europe and the same Haplogroup in europe with no evidence that the X haplogroup migrated across asia through siberia and across north america from east to west but very good evidence that the X haplo group migrated from the middle east into europe and from there, apparently into the northeastern north america. The Solutreans drew boats on cave walls, even boats with sails... so its obvious they had boats and did not need a solid frozen land bridge to cross from europe to canada. Just some food for thought.
Where are you getting this conclusion that the upper east coast had the largest distribution. Just because there are more people looking and collecting points in the North east doesn't mean that the ancient indigenous peoples were using it more there than on the West Coast. Also, as the uploader pointed out the Oldest sites containing Clovis points are in the Northwest and in Mexico
@@Fan_Made_Videos logic would dictate that in continually inhabited locations the finds there would show the last time people lived there not when they first arrived there. So to find the oldest location and epicenter it would then make more sense to look for the location with the largest number of finds and highest density
@@Relikson Native American x is haplotype x2a. It has no connection to europe or the middle East
Mitochondrial haplogroup X2 did not exist in Paleolithic Europe, it only arrived with the Neolithic wave from West Asia. X2 is original from West Asia and some traces of it exist in Siberia, the actual path taken by the precursors of Native Americans. They also carried from that same region their main patrilineage: Q1, which is most basally diverse around Iran.
The obvious explanation is that the core population that led to the forming of Native Americans existed first in Altai (including the famous Denisova cave, once the Neanderthales that had evicted the "Denisovans" were evicted themselves) since around 47.000 years ago. They migrated eastwards since c. 30.000 years ago via North China and Mongolia, where their archaeological signature is very apparent and where Y-DNA Q1 was also common in some Neolithic populations many millennia after that. In that area they admixed with the locals, acquiring the four Eastern matrilineages (A, B, C and D, as well as one patrilineage of the C type), then some migrated to Beringia and crossed to America, probably by coastal boating rather than by walking.
Dog genetics also confirm that trail via Northern Asia: the Altai dog, c. 33,000 years ago, one of the oldest known domesticated wolves, is ancestral to Native American dog breeds.
Just to explain the DNA issue in more detail. You did a great job.
Thanks for the added info!
How does this fit if there were people in North America 60,000 or 100,000 years ago ?
@@dukenails7745 - There were not. They arrived around 17,000 years ago.
Clarification: when I said: "Q1, which is most basally diverse around Iran", I meant that Q is most basally diverse around Iran, Q1 as such seems specific of Native Americans. Sorry about that error.
@@LuisAldamiz how is it known that there were no people in North America until that time ?
Hi Stefan! Aren't the Solutreans from a Dr Who episode? Lol. Another great video. I don't know enough about this to make a valid contribution but I've been inspired to do some catch up reading, so thanks very much!
No worries Tecto! I must have missed that episode of Dr. Who lol
Its likely that when "proto" native americans lived in siberia, they might have had a little bit of admixture from proto-caucasions before crossing the bering strait. The caucasions very early on (tens of thousands of years) lived past the ural mountain range. There are even theories that they might have even sharred some common ancestors in that area before they headed east
Yeah, the Caucasian hypothesis would definitely explain the distribution of Haplogroup X (native to the Caucasus) among the Pre-Columbian peoples of the Americas.
Europeans and East Asians (including Amerindians) shared a not too distant ancestor.
Proto native = solutrense peninsula ibérica 20.000 años
Yeah the Ancient North Eurasians the mammoth hunters, one of our common ancestor we share.
if Solutreans did make it over here 22,000 y.a. it doesn't mean that they survived to pass on their genome. Increasingly, it is thought that the Eurasians came to the Americas by boat along the ice margin and coast, not by walking through Beringia. But that distance is far greater than the ice margin between Europe and the Chesapeake, but no one objects to that. A bit of a double standard.
I agree, and the graphic Stefan showed in his video of the ice between Europe and N. America was of quite broken and distant coverage, giving an impression of great difficulty to have been navigable, contrast that to the graphic and explanation in Dr. Dennis Stanford's video where it made so much more sense that it could have been done:
ruclips.net/video/MS9mv3-UNiQ/видео.htmlsi=8ydNXaJJsnPqpSMi
Well said. I am from the West Coast and it always made more sense because there would have been a mountainous wall of ice just inland. They definitely hugged the coast when the Siberians migrated to America, no doubt.
Enjoy all your videos.
I'm Native American my tribes are TsaLagi and Mingo nations both derived from Iroquois nation
My DNA is 61% Native American 30% German and 9% Asian. You are spot on I believe. Keep up the great work
An important problem with early archaeology regarding people is the rising oceans. Many people would have lived near the coasts. Those ancient coasts have been flooded for thousands of years. Much of what the people lived in were either organic huts or lost in underwater caves now filled with sand and silt. Doggerland is an example. In the southern coastal USA, prehistoric coasts extended farther south than they are now. Ancient submerged forests have been uncovered there. Sundaland is another example of places where people could have lived and thrived until the oceans drowned the lands there. In the future, archaeologists will have the tools to explore these submerged human habitats.
Nobody walked on ice... The theory is that during the ice age sea levels were lower and there was more land than there is now.
where was the ice then?
@@ajrwilde14 on land masses. The sea wasn’t frozen, just lower.
I just found your channel. You have some great videos. As you can see by my name I am a supporter of the Solutrean Hypothesis. I am saddened to hear of the death of Dennis Stanford. I read his book and he convinced me. Keep up the good work.
You make our comparisons of Clovis & Solutrean. Yet, the Solutrean hypothesis is comparing pre-Clovis & Solutrean dates, below the Clovis layers. You have made a hash of this and ignored the layer timelines and the fact that the coastlines at thus time were 50 miles or more out to sea. The pre-Clovis artifacts that we find now on the coast an into the interior, below Clovis layers are also covered up by the ocean now and get dredged up regularly.
Maybe pre-Clovis went to Europe to teach the Solutreans their stone methods.
What about the DNA of east coast first nations? There was evidence found, isn't it. What about more founds on the the eastern coast?
Dennis Stanford did a lecture for me in 1981. He was a real genius in archeological research. I've been working on Paleoindian sites in Florida for 35 years. We are starting to gather evidence for Pre-Clovis cultural material in association with late Pleistocene mega fauna dating to as early as 14,550 years. The tools regardless of differing views are remarkably different from Asian paleo tool types. It's also entirely possible that these early lithics may have even entered North America by people prior to the Solutrian Cultural Phase. This research is just beginning and many old time archeologists are resistant just as they did a century ago thinking people entered America as recently as only four thousand years ago.
Windover is fascinating...The Solutreans fascinate me...My ancestors are from Asturias...Thank you for your hard work and dedication...
Excellent video. Very interesting, informative and worthwhile video. A must see video for all thinking people. Thank you for the references to the papers. It might be more helpful to provide links to the papers.
I hold that humans first populated the Americas not from the North, but the South.
Genetic evidence has shown South American populations having aboriginal Australian DNA. Sites dating back to 14,000+ years in both Chile and Florida also suggest a Northern expansion from the South as opposed to the the accept hypothesis.
An interesting thought, if nothing else.
I agree with you also the famous luzia fossil
So Tiera del Fuego folk are the most Aboriginal? If DNA supports an Australian ad mixture that is interesting, but how did they sail there if Europeans couldn't even get to Nova Scotia?
@@angrytedtalks There is a long string of islands that litter the South Pacific, Hawaii and Easter Island being a few notable ones. The Polynesians we know have sailed those waters before on relatively primitive craft.
Perhaps an earlier culture, predating the Polynesians made the voyage sooner. They'd use the islands to navigate, and to resupply on long voyages.
The most interesting thing to me is the Australian connection. Australian and Amazonian hunter gather cultures have extremely striking similarities in their religious beliefs, and shamanic practices.
Yes, analysis can only reflect what we know, but sometimes there is a pattern of ignoring what we cannot avoid knowing. The best and most relevant example of this tendency is boats. We know that homo got to Flores 800, 000 years ago. Australia 60,000 to 90,000 years ago. Japan 500,000, Crete over 1 million years ago. We know they did not fly, so boats. If homo have been mucking about in boats for a million years some degree of sophistication in design, construction, navigation, and seamanship must have occurred. Much archeology is done in deserts where tripping over a boat is not a common hazard. But why do people persist in arguing for extremes, such as crossing the altlantic in a canoe? There is no evidence for even that, but common sense still applies. If a fossilized boat is ever discovered, which I doubt, it will be far more sophisticated that was ever envisaged, just as with every new fossil the prehistory of homo gets more complicated.
I just subbed to you in another video and clicked on this fearing you might be one of those conspiracy theory nutters in disguise - there are way too many of them on RUclips. I'm glad that it seems I didn't have anything to worry about.
It's not that I don't mind controversy necessarily so much as it is that I generally prefer getting information worth my time and consideration from more reputable sources, so thanks for that.
I agree 100%. You won't find any conspiracies on my channel don't worry. I always use academic sources, and always show my sources.
Solutrean can also be called white power "Nazi" archeology. The Nazi's went looking all over the world for their "Aryan" artifacts.
Thank you for going over the actual archeology.
Your political views are as out of place in science as they are in the court room.
Prof.Stanford shows east to west migration of Clovis points , rather than west to east. No Clovis point has ever been found in Siberia.
No Clovis point has ever been found in Europe either.
10:17 My understanding of the latest genetic evidence is not that the peopling of Americas was one rapid event, but rather at least 2 separate migrations from Siberia with the second displacing many people from the first migration who lived in North America
I haven't heard this. Can you point to sources for this?
Another great video! I had never heard of this hypothesis and now I know why - no plausible evidence. Googling around and reading support for it, it seems exactly like what an earlier commenter said well: people are bending over backwards to make the tiniest bit of evidence plausible while ignoring completely the large amount of evidence that counts against it.
Great video and you found your studio!
Yeah I'd agree with that assessment. Thanks for watching!
Man, you make such high quality content, I wish I could be like you.
That view is so beautiful it looks fake! So calm and serene...
I know! The water is almost a perfect mirror image.
Naalbinding is a technique of creating things that look like present knitting. It has been developed, probably independently discovered, all over the world. Different patterns. Lovely photos of Crater Lake by the way.
Real twist on Kenniwick Man, though, hey? In my anthro classes only 5 years ago we were taught that he exhibited South Pacific morphology. That was before the genetic testing
Anyways, the hypothesis has a lot of gaps, and dredging artifacts from the seafloor is bad methodology, and you pointing these things out has got you a new subscriber.
Thanks!
The original archeologists stated this, however there is some controversy over their findings, like the fact that they never published their findings in peer reviewed journals and kept their methodology secret. Even to this day. The fact that they never submitted their findings for peer review is in and of itself highly suspicious as it is very unusual.
It is possible that they were fudging their results to keep the origins intentionally hazy; so they could continue their study of the remains. Something that would have been impossible if they said his morphology resembled modern Native Americans. Even if their morphological conclusions are sound it says nothing about Kennewick Man's ethnic origins, as there is much greater morphology variation in Paleoamricans then there is in modern Native Americans. In any case, DNA trumps morphology in determining ethnic origins, and the DNA is conclusive, he is an ancestor of modern Native Americans both from his mothers side, and from his Fathers side as his yDNA is also exclusively found in modern Native American populations.
good work, your explanation is not only sufficient, but also well organized!
Just something for you to look into, which is the new DNA evidence of Polynesian and austrailian DNA groups in south America. This is a relatively recent discovery
Another problem is that crossing sea ice is difficult and dangerous. Wind and currents often make what is known as pack ice, which is small flat areas surrounded by steep ridges where the individual pieces of ice have collided. This is very arduous to cross, even with lightweight modern equipment. Even if we believe that the Atlantic was filled with ice down to Ireland and Newfoundland, the distance is over 3000 km or nearly 2000 miles. Are we to believe that people with tools and equipment made out of wood, leather, rock and bone would have made a journey into the unknown across thousands of kilometers of pack ice? I'm surprised that an archaeologist came up with this idea in the 1970s. I would have been less surprised if the idea had been a hundred years older
The Red Ocher people was for sure early northmen. For politicalincorrect info see the video Red Ochre, Red Paint, and the Peopling of the Americas - ROBERT SEPEHR.
Greetings
Came for the Soultrain Hypothesis, stayed for the Solutrean Hypothesis.
My line of thinking is this; It seems to me that during the glacial period, a population of humans in north Central Asia found ways to adapt to arctic environments. Once far enough north in latitude, as long as there are resources to exploit, there is room for them to expand either east or west, and there doesn’t necessarily need to be admixture between their population and populations less tolerant of arctic lifestyles whether they be in Europe or SE Asia. So, for me, the idea that Clovis ‘was not European, had no European dna, culture etc,’ I’m not convinced that it would need to. One population could have moved west a thousand kilometers or more north of the European populations living south of the ice sheets, and because of the vast differences between their niches, the one never known or even been aware of the other. And if Vikings could get to Nova Scotia 800 years ago, and humans could get to Patagonia 20k ya, I just don’t feel that it’s impossible for high latitude central Asians to travel both east into Alaska and West into the Chesapeake Bay Area of North America and then meet or overlap somewhere in the great plains. And whereas all the available evidence casts considerable doubt on a ‘European migration,’ (and granted, I also am no expert and recognize that people much smarter than I have information that I don’t which may illuminate this) I haven’t seen anything yet that definitely proves that protoNative Americans started in north Central Asia and *only* migrated east.
I saw a show the other night that supported the Solutrean Hypothesis. The shows presenter went to the Smithsonian and was show an artifact that was found in Massachusetts dated to some 20,000 years ago, (give or take), that they claimed to be made of a stone that can only be found in France. They also claimed that the, "Ice bridge" at that time was complete and solid. So who is one to believe? Until I see actual proof to the contrary, I will continue to believe the Clovis to be the first peoples to populate North America.
You're not the first person to say that. I've tried searching on the internet for this stone and haven't found any results. Just tools produced in a "European style". Which again leads back to the argument, why can't two people produce a tool in a similar way? The Smithsonian is where Stanford worked so it's no surprise that they are the most keen to promote the idea. I do find it funny though that many people accuse the government of covering up the truth yet at the same time it's America's national museum that promotes this more than any organisation.
Well someone needs to send me the source for that French stone, as I said I can't find it.
Yeah they were sued because the law states that native American remains should be the property of native american groups. If another country started excavating and removing remains at Stonehenge without the consent of the British, that wouldn't be right. Likewise native American remains belong to native american groups it's only fair.
Anyway the DNA tests were carried out by a Danish lab, what's their motivation to lie? You can't prove any coverup or bias. It's just an unfounded allegation.
What about the other criticisms in the video? Why no solutrean art? Why no bone tools? How come the solutreans showed no evidence of living off the sea? Why no solutreans in britain or Ireland or northern france?
We even have a modern example of this with the invention of modern photography. there were two europeans who were (I believe one french one english) Who both, during the same time invented/were working on photographic techniques. And from what I remember they were not in contact about their discoveries or ideas.
"But a rival, of Solutré, told the tribe my style was outré", said a minor poet certified by Traill.
keep up the great work! as a armature forensic archaeologist; two thumbs up!
Thanks!
I heared if you utter the word "*Genetics*" any Solutrean proponent within earshot will implode as if they were exposed to the Hokuto Shinken technique.
Technology spreads differently then people. No one is arguing Greeks are Egyptians or Phoenicians, just because Greek alphabet is derived from Phoenician, which ultimately comes from Egyptian hieroglyphs
Love your videos Stefan. As an anthropology major and citizen of the Pacific interested in these things I suggest you bone up on the spread of the sea-faring Austronesian people from South-East Asia throughout the Pacific, to Madagascar and as far afield as Hawai'i and Rapanui. When Europeans first arrived in my home country Aotearoa/New Zealand the Maori already had Kumara (sweet-potatoes) originating in South America. Austronesian people definitely had been to South-America and returned to the Pacific. This is shrouded in pre-history but is a known fact. You are way off in your explanations of Austronesian DNA being present in contemporary South American populations, it is likely not connected at all to the original spread of people into the Americas from northern Asia.
Diaramamond - I think he said ‘australasian’ which also includes melanesians and Aboriginal Australians.
I have read that this group of people in Brazil are actually more closely related to Aboriginal Australians than other groups.
Considering Brazil is way off the pacific coast this would mean that the ‘Austronesian’ people who migrated there by sea would have also had to have climbed over the Andes and into the western Brazilian rainforest. And given they are culturally a coastal people it seems unlikely that the Brazilian tribe was Austronesian.
It could be that this tribe is related to aboriginal Australians via a shared Gondwana migration.
How did Siberian microlith technique become Clovis? Whether we believe or not in a Solutrean connection, there are a number of questions on how and when Clovis propagated. There are Clovis points in New England which are older than those found in the west.
True i agree
PETS (People for the Ethical Treatment of Solutreans) request a word with you, Stephan.
Is that a real thing lol.
It will be, if not ”is”
@@belstar1128 It will be if I make it so. (But I don't want to.)
Nothing like Clovis found in Siberia, very little found in Alaska. More artifacts found in a 20 mile stretch in Delaware than from the Rockies to the Pacific Ocean. Solutrean technology was here, likely 20 -25,000 yrs ago. They may well have died out but their stone tools did not. And someone please show us anything as close to Clovis as say a Solutrean Laurel blade......there aint!
What are your thoughts on the phanicians claim to sailing around Africa?
I think it's possible. Romans did it and their sailing technology wasn't that superior.
I also think it possible and likely. They were phenomenal sailors, though don’t think they had the shipbuilding tech to say, cross the Atlantic, which is very different from sailing within quick reach of land. But they could have followed the shoreline quite plausibly, IMO.
I think it's possible, as far as I'm aware it was just one expedition so archaeologically it probably hasn't left a trace. Technologically I think they were capable of it, could just hug the coastline for a couple of years. The line in Herodotus that refers to the sun rising on your right hand side when you looked north is interesting because that only happens in the southern hemisphere. If no one had crossed the equator, I don't know how he could've known that. Although the Ancient Greeks were very good at maths so who knows.
The same opinion about about using nuclear drive space ships (like Orion drive) by the end of XXth century to get to other planets in Solar System. Technology allowed that, but it does not mean that it happened... :D
They did: they stated something that made them feel "unbelievable" back in the day: when sailing along Southern Africa (from east to west) the Sun was on their right. Now we know it is correct but in Antiquity many thought it "proof" of falsehood: how could the Sun be to the North?!
There was at least another guy, some Greek sailor who also seems to have circunnavigated Africa. I don't recall his name. He was the last to do so in Antiquity, when the Romans took over such exploratory curiosity vanished altogether.
There are Solutrean sites in the UK. Three of em for sure that I know about and pre-Clovis artifacts in the Americas well within the Solutrean period.
7:32 I could be wrong but doesn’t that mean “end of the world” in Spanish, if so that’s a pretty cool name. Imagine telling people you’re from the end of the world.
Yes, it does!
Excellent work again.. And I am Native American with indigenous Roots from both parent's..I agree with your opinion on this subject..Here's what's strange the science points 👉 in one direction but some natives here say they came from the east..[ The Navajo ]..It is part of there life ..they actually bury people facing East ... 🤔..
I like arguments about this topic. I like to toy around the idea of an Atlantic crossing, primarily because I like to think that humans were able to utilize boats more profoundly than we might normally think.
However, the DNA just doesn't hold up for it. Outside of involving conspiracy theories, that's sort of the end of the ride.
Occasionally we get outliers in American archeaology, but they usually get sniffed out as either being contamination, bad science, and bias.
The people who tend to cling to this theory generally have some sort of racial bias, which is pretty funny, since the Solutrean population wouldn't have been directly ancestral to modern europeans, since modern europeans come from the Indo-European migration a few thousand years later.
Nonsense. Modern europeans are decendants of three main ancestral groups the first being the WHG which would include the solutreans, the neolithic farmers from anatolia and finaly the yamnaya culture which is associated with the spread of indo-european you mention. So the modern european dna makeup contains an addmixture of all three populations to varying degrees. Europeans ARE to a significant degree decended from solutrean and solutrean related populations the western hunter gatherers.
Don't "like" arguments!
Dude why would you use the term "conspiracy theory" you shot yourself in the foot with that one..
They were able of some very notable feats like crossing to Australia in what was probably crude rafts. The very Beringian crossing was probably done by boating along the coast rather than walking through a rather inhospitable inland route. In later times Austronesians made really amazing feats with very modest means but the Solutrean hypothesis doesn't hold ground in any way: nobody crossed the Atlantic at the very least before the Phoenicians (and even that is very much under doubt).
@@bartholomewtott3812 - Almost right. However the fine print is that WHG is actually a subpopulation of Magdalenians, the Villabruna group and that there were other Paleoeuropean populations (like El Mirón group) that left a much smaller legacy. Also Indoeuropeans are a mix of Eastern Paleoeuropeans (EHG, like WHG but with significant Paleosiberian/Uralic admixture) and a distinct group of Neolithic farmers from what is now Kurdistan. AFAIK no particular study proves Solutrean ascendancy of modern Europeans, although it is very likely to some extent.
What about the Soul Train Hypothesis back in the 70s? That's BAAAAD, baby!
Nice work, as usual. The land bridge makes sense but I doubt it's the "whole" story, it would also be enlightening to compare early Siberian artifacts to early American. Every body wants a single definitive answer to the full exclusion of all other or mixed possibilities. This is where mainstream archeology departs from more "rigorous" science.
the doctor who Stephan mentions at the beginning and in the description, spent 30 years in alaska and siberia looking for that exact evidence. He found ZERO. Its blade manufacture is more akin to the aztecs than any other native blade work.
@@dontrotter1099 So if that's the case it seems like Clovis points bear a closer resemblance to solutrean than Siberian/Alaskan. Just looks like there are so many missing pieces to the puzzle.......Perhaps a disaster scenario would explain some of it.
I have to be honest, I normally don't like channels where you se the presenter. I like viual graphs and images as that's how I learn. However, you do it in such an ingenius way that I can't resist. Great content and channel!
p.s. I live in the country that invented Nando's. It tastes better here xD
Pretty well done considering you're not an "anything". 👍🏼
Not sure where this fits in, but have you heard of the old Vero man site? It's in my back yard and some art artifacts recovered from said site are exquisite.
I haven't I'll look into it though, always love something new to read about.
Not as old as previously thought. Less than 10KyrsBP.
Everytime I'm reminded that the oldest Native American site we know of is in Mexico and not farther up north I'm baffled ^^ It really shows they must have traveled south pretty fast, probably in just a few generations.
Much of the North West is boreal rainforest. The Haida Gwaii area does have very old settlements and were highly civilized building beautiful functional wood homes and exquisite carved art.
But wood rots and rain promotes rot.
If you ever visit Victoria, British Columbia, the Provincial Museum has wonderful displays and programs about the local indigenous cultures.
I think the oldest site now discovered is in Southern Chile at Monte Verde and a civilization in Peru, both from c. 15,000 years ago. How did they get to the bottom of South America before most archaeologists thought they reached Beringia. The sea level was so much lower during the last ice age, hundreds of feet lower, so most artifacts are probably now below the sea. We might need another ice age to find answers, but I would prefer not to find out and enjoy good weather.
@@thomasruppenthal7192 I got bad news for you, but it's not an ice age that's coming...
@@echalone The only bad weather news, according to all the history that we are aware of, relates to ice ages - another one like the last one would probably kill billions of people. Another degree of warmth would be delightful.
@UC545Ezu-pFd7ooQzb4yCZtA I usually don't get into a discussion with the Global Warming . . . oops, I mean Climate Change believers as they are usually entirely ignorant of the scientific method and incapable of critical thought, but you don't seem entirely brainwashed, so I will respond.
How can you possibly know that there will be global warming and how can you possibly know it will be 2-3 degrees or more? Could it be from "scientific" models much like the recent "scientific" models that predicted 2.2 million deaths from the invisible Covid enemy? Every model put forth by the global warmists over the past thirty years have been hysterical and been proved wrong. Yet these "experts" soon return with more new models and perilous predictions and people, for some unknown reason, take them seriously.
And no, the climate has not increased significantly already (if you mean in the past thirty years) and actually a rise in climate probably will not kill millions and would be very likely a time of plenty as warmer climes equal better vegetation growth and thereby greater amounts of food
The sea level during the depths of the latest ice age was c. 400 feet lower than it is today - the sea level has been rising on average 2.5 inches every year for 18,000 years and somehow we lived through that and flourished. If you look back even to the middle ages you could learn about the warming period when there were successful settlements on Greenland, wine was made from grapes grown in northern England and Europe prospered and grew with many excellent harvests. This was followed by the Little Ice Age that lasted for c. 500 years that probably helped the virulence of the Black Death due to a number of bad harvests and near famine conditions in parts of Europe - also the Thames and other rivers froze solid in the winters, grapes no longer grew in England and the cold conditions may have spurred the exploration of the world by the Europeans. I prefer wine grapes to famine and pestilence.
Our present rich society largely began with the end of this Ice Age. The present climate conditions or even some further warmth are to be greatly preferred by anyone not a masochist or an eskimo rather than any sort of new ice age. Please be more skeptical about "experts" and their predictions. Many such "experts" have had long and well-paid careers making predictions that are never correct; such incompetence would get them fired from any job, but in academia and government they somehow seem to do very very well. Science is always skeptical and it is never settled. If anyone tells you differently, they are lying.
It may not be supported by the majority of archaeologists, but I think it is supported by the evidence.
Actually Stephan, several things here. 1000ad eric the red went along west and found the ice was gone. he settled iceland and greenland. that held for 500 years. This is just for ground work. Last glacial Maximum was around 20000 years ago, sea level was 400 ft down. That was an incredible amount of land that now is completely submerged. Any Solutrian main camp sites are therefore under deep water.
If they followed the ice cap around to the west, the wind from the ice would counter the current. Guess depends if they had sails or what kind of boats they had. Plus what supplies did they take. If a group of hunters had got lost and then returned with the knowledge of the North American continent, they could have all went to NA. Now fast forwards to that great event known as Pulse Water 1a. 12900 years ago. Ice cap is melted in some kind of catastrophe. Clovis and the Great mammals are all gone at the same time. NA turns into a desert from the rockies to the east. There were no survivors on that side. The group in mexico i believe are the last of them. I dont know if they survived long enough to inter breed with the new comers or not.
Kenniwick mans Dna showed that he wasnt even closely related to any known group in the whole of the NA! certainly not the colville indians, who arent even pure enough to check against. They found the burials in florida that arent urasians. I dont know if any dna was ever done on them or not. Would think they would have been but i dont recall ever seeing any. The eurasians used micro flaking chips set in bone or wood rather than a discrete arrowhead or spear point. Just like the Aztecs did. I have seen enough pictures of the pre clovis people flints to see that some bare a close resemblance to the Solutrian style.
So if the melting of the ice sheets, the scouring of the land and destruction of all the large animals removed all proof of the clovis people besides points left all over the eat coast, where would they have left art work? It was bad here for quite a while before it got better.
But hey, good video, glad i follow your videos!
Regarding the Kenniwick man - The Native Americans had the US Government on their team so-as not to upset the status-quo. There's little doubt that the DNA was tampered with, there are several witnesses that claim the Native Americans had access to the remains and had added items to the box and, possibly, taken items out of the box.
don trotter: You should have worded that as "Any [possible] Solutrean campsites..." Since we have no evidence that they ever were here, we can't use language that suggests that they were. When discussing scientific topics, one must phrase their statements in relativistic terms and avoid as much as possible absolutist wordings.
@@SteveGrin I saw somewhere, not sure if it was a book or a video, showing the Kenniwick man and the Spirit cave mans DNA. They were both well out side of any Native american or eurasian group of people. they were not related to each other also. There just isnt any thing left from the clovis people. I wish there was, like the Olmecs in the Yucatan. just for curiosity.
@@shruggzdastr8-facedclown I really want to take exception to your statement here. Scientists do that all the time. They state something that has absolutely no scientific fact and it becomes the dogma. When shown the errors of their thinking or dogma, the protagonist is cast aside and subjected to career ending ridicule. The Geologist that proposed that the scab lands of washington came from the melting of the ice sheet rather than a re-occurrence of the ice lake in Montana over many times, was castigated for 50 years. Now, he isnt completely excepted, but more in mainstream except him. We dont need a campsite per se, since we dont have clovis either, and they were everywhere east of rockies. What does that prove?
@@dontrotter1099 I wonder if the clovis were wiped out in the younger dryas impact?
Crater Lake Oregon on a winter day under blue sky? Yeah, shockingly beautiful.
To those not familiar with Crater Lake, it's rather deep and one is looking down on the lake from a higher elevation. The combination produce water looking exceptionally deep blue. Truly gorgeous.
Stefan, what do you think of the aquatic ape hypothesis? Granted the archeological evidence is very hard to come by. But isn't that because we aren't looking in the right places?
We wouldn't sweat if "aquatic": we are adapted to the Tropical steppe-like conditions (savanna, sahel). Also you just don't go swimming in Africa: it's crocodiles everywhere!
@@LuisAldamiz Crocodiles everywhere? I thought it was turtles all the way down!
Great video Stefan. I’m just sorry you had to make a video on this at all.
I’ve heard of this idea only in the context of fringe right wing extremism (that as a general phenomenon is unfortunately now quite mainstream) - and it’s always a balance between responding concisely and factually to fringe extremist ideas vs. giving their ideas attention they don’t deserve.
It raises an issue similar to what I saw on this RUclips channel called Jubilee where they held a discussion between scientists and flat earthers. This was never going to be a “discussion” in any traditional sense because these are not two equivalent ideas that just need to be hashed out. One side summarizes the entire body of knowledge in the space sciences to our best understanding, and the other side presents something they read from their friend’s Facebook post.
In my view, that was wrong of them to hold that debate and give flat earthers a platform that makes them look equivalent. But a situation like this video where you simply address the claims with whether the evidence supports them or not, I think is a net positive.
Wow! As a Turk, I am kinda relieved to find out we’re not the only weirdos who claim the Native Americans are somehow in fact their descendants :))
Turks have nothing to do with native Americans...Turks are trying to claim native Americans and Mongolian🤣🤣🤣
"Spread to Québec" honestly the 3 seconds of realisation that qc is, in fact, in Canada is both such a mood and the funniest thing ever xD Great video, as usual, keep up the good work! You're def my favourite channel on here :D
If I remember correctly, the stone point found with the mastodon by Dr Stanford was scientifically proven to have been made of a stone found only in the south of France. That kind of proves the Solutrean hypothesis whether or not the dates jive. Physical evidence vs. opinion, in this case it proves Dr Stanford was in fact correct.
The Cinmar biface was made from a local low grade rhyolite. Dennis suggests that it was low grade because the solutrean people had not yet explored all the materials in the area and had not found any high grade tool stone
Looking at this from afar, I would say that we know that there were people in the americas pre-clovis. That is an established fact. We strongly suspect people sailed down the western coasts of the americas. Not proven how, but we know that people got around the ice somehow. It took a long time to disprove the clovis first theory.
The genetics of the population of western Europe 30-20,000 years ago is not well known if at all. Many of these possible sites are deeply underwater. The prehistoric genetics of eastern native americans is also not well known. We do have some data of course.
My take is that we lack evidence to decide one way or the other. When I talk about ways, maybe native americans discovered western europe. So all of this is speculation and we just do not know for certain.
Eastern and northeastern Canadian aboriginal haplogroups are r1b (native european.) Kennewick man is Caucasian. The oldest Skeleton found in south America is austronesian (like aboriginal Australians). Polynesians or austronesians got to South America and took sweet potatoes with them. Cocaine and tobacco was found in the Hellenic Egyptian mummies hair. Mohammed was described as having red hair and the Scythians likely made it to Korea (kurgan burials).
You give our anscestors little credit. The Vikings were NOT the first to make it to the America’s. Humans get around, seas historically are more highways than they are barriers
Stefan, I like your videos and you can write me off as a conspiracy theorist but there is a crazy amount of history that does not contribute to mainstream narratives. If Kennewick man is Caucasian or Polynesians existed in the Americas for example, there goes the genocide narrative of manifest destiny. “No European ancestry” means no indo-European ancestry.
We know the make up of the modern European genome and the groups that contributed to it, native Americans don't fit into that. Kennewick man was a Native American, related to modern native Americans.
great post gray
yes true
the fuegians (teirra de fuego) have dna from the abos of australia
saw a documentary on 2 old women there and they did the dna testing
amazing
Stefan Milo if not Europeans, then Polynesians. The history of the new world has been obscured for the sake of a narrative of genocide. The Europeans in question were not even the same Europeans as modern ones are (indo Europeans/Anatolian farmer). They would have had northern Eurasian dna much like the ones who entered from beringia.
Uncle Ruckus I think I’ve seen the same one, fuegians are very different from most natives phenotypically just on a surface level as well
I know I probably will not get a response, but is this video shot in the Sierra Nevada by any chance? Just let looks like that area to me
Great video Stephen. Have you considered how aliens could have affected the genetic history?:-) it's always aliens.
Thank you, nobody else recognizes that Native Americans are just aliens. Aliens I tells ya!
No aliens.