The Content Conundrum - Why So Many Games Feel Generic - Extra Credits
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- Procedurally generated content seems like a really appealing route for a lot of indie developers--it's what AAA game studios are doing, and it seems to protect game balance! But often times it's worth the extra effort to craft a few handmade pieces, even at the risk of "breaking" the game.
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Игры
Procedurally generated content is very popular in AAA games right now, because it saves money--but especially in the indie game space, it often pays off to create some handmade content that makes your game’s personality come alive.
Also, apologies to everyone who has made a comment and has not seen it appear yet--something's wonky with our RUclips settings so a lot of comments are hiding right now! Thanks for your patience.
Extra Credits Matt you did a great job... That's all. Narration performance in this episode is leagues ahead of your previous ones. Thank you for listening to the comments and not taking them negatively. Extra Credits is "the" channel devs look up to. I by all my heart appreciate the effort you put in. Bro you've proved yourself worthy. Honestly I was maybe the most angry and annoyingly audience when they replaced Dan. And I was so accustomed to him that I didn't think someone else could do it. Turns out you've proved a lot of us wrong today. I apologise to you for my previous comments and thank you for bringing me back on Extra Credits
I feel the same and have SO many content ideas for SO many games
That reminds me of a problem i have with many new diablo-type games: the balance. There is just too much of it. One of my favorite games is sacred 1. I remember how i found i broken item that just said "deal 2000% more damage to dragons" at level 2. I took that dagger with a class that would throw the weapon. had to pick it up every time. i traveled to a high level zone and found a dragon. After 1 hour i killed it. And instantly got to level 40. Nowadays? Grim Dawn is a fine example. We play at level 50, a friend joins at 10. He just levels a little bit faster. All for the sake of balance. Its boring. I want these game breaking items, these fast exploitive leveling systems and in general just freedom. I played the whole campain of sacred with a dark elf who could perma-stun enemies. I loved it. Just let the items have every possible stat, give some legendarys real effects to add and its fine. Dont overdesign the balance because someone would cry you only took 2 minutes to 60 in grim dawn in your single player session. Its stupid and doesnt take anything from anyone.
The voice and the pace are not the same now.
Rather than make a more complex model for an item, in order to show that something is better, just make it *shinier*.
Also, you can do things like speed up and slow down animations. Speed up to make something feel light, and slow down to make something feel light.
*meanwhile at Bethesda*
Balance? What's that?
_proceeds to implement spell that makes every enemy in a 3 mile radius attack literally everything_
András Fogarasi It just works! (until it crashes)
I want it so badly!
And that's why we put so many hours into those buggy, expansive, lovable messes they make
I recently used that spell during the civil war questline. There's a bit where your guys expect an ambush and send you on ahead.
So I turned invisible (what's a "sneak skill"?) and nuked the lot with firey rage.
Literally, as it turned out. I was too busy getting some distance from my guys so I didn't see that half the room was covered in oil and fire lamps. The mayhem spell set off every single one of them.
Naturally, _one_ of my guys was still in range. Still, it was a fun moment.
Frenzy them all, then just become invisible and silent. Illusion for the win, every time.
Zoey, I hope those notes are meticulously organized, a future episode depends on it.
I'm excited to see that episode. I like both Diablo and Souls, so it'll be nice to compare the two.
*Meow.*
Before it felt like you were trying to sell me something. This time it felt like a small group of us were having a conversation. You nailed it this time!
Just like the old days! He's really, really improving. Keep on going!
I think you're just getting used to his voice... I don't hear much difference
He has toned it down a bit. He's still a way to go, but it's not so over the top.
Agreed! I don't know if I'm just getting used to him, but I'm starting to like his presentation more.
I think he's getting better. He's not a Dan, though.
That Executioner Blade text was perfect. That is exactly the kind of thing that makes a game stand out for me. Little pieces of lore that, in the end mean nothing, but still manage to stimulate my imagination. It really does massively expand the world with damn near zero cost.
And all you need to do is put it somewhere, and your player will imagine the dead body they looted it from was the executioner, or some other environmental storytelling.
Matt seems like he's really coming into his own and getting comfortable narrating. Keep up the great work.
Strongly agreed with this. It's really cool to see.
Yes, starting to sound more natural and relaxed. Much less of that forced exuberance, while steel keeping his own style. Keep it up, that's lovely :)
I'm still getting used to it. I'm mildly autistic, and as a result, don't like it when things I am used to change. I mean, no one likes that, but, it hits me hard. I'm getting over it, though. Still love the series muchly. Matt is doing a wonderful job.
i like the cat
He's good, but I do miss Dan :(
Props to the use of Chrono Trigger background music for the outro. That game has tons of items and enemies that perfectly illustrate what you're talking about while the world feels very developed and alive
True, I played it almost 20 years ago and it's still my favorite RPG.
dannymusic
Enemies maybe, but the items are all pretty generic
Funny, i was thinking about playing Chrono Trigger these recent days. I guess i'll definitely have to do it now
it sounded a bit like head chala from dbz , but then again, toriyama made the art for that.
Ironically, or maybe rather fittingly, Chrono Trigger is one of the most well-animated 2d rpgs of all time.
Chrono Trigger's artistic fidelity imo is the biggest reason the world feels full of life. Every enemy is charismatic in some way, explaining a bit about the creature. That's a top-class work that's hard to follow in the shoes of.
www.videogamesprites.net/ChronoTrigger/Enemies/MiddleAges/7.html
Humm... how about a an episode on Dwarf Fortress? It truly is a fascinating game
That would have to be a whole series. Dwarf Fortress always a long investment to get into.
I'd have thought that procedurally generated content would just open a Pandora's Box of checks and balances in order for it to work. It feels like double-handling when compared to just planning the items out and crafting them. You're completely right about the Diablo/Skyrim/Souls comparisons though. Part of the reason Dark Souls feels so rich as a world is because every element of the game is pulling triple or quadruple duty in storytelling - a sword has damage stats, but it also speaks to playing style through a moveset (rather than just being hack/slash), while also having lore of the world attached to it in the description, which itself is usually tied to where the player found the weapon. And not a lot of this is made explict, it's presented and absorbed through action and experience rather than just being told "This is the lance of The Great Whomever, it has a +4 against Magic types". The Souls games, at least initially, seem to almost go out of their way to obfuscate and abstract the overall numbers game behind it because they want you to learn things by experience and skill rather than always trying to meta-game yourself to the highest level pickup you find. Procedural generation would make that kind of specificity really difficult, and make it much harder for the developers to craft and shape the experience.
Faster than Light is a great example of good use of the idea.
I don't think obfuscating your own stat readout is all that handy for new players. Certainly i wasted more time than i needed on dud weapons
It went down to make room for more G R A P H I C S. That's why I hate the current state of the AAA industry.
"And remember the power of re-skinning"
- Buffalo Bill
Powerful words...
A personal tip for anyone that want to make a game with a lot of content is to make a system that helps you to create handmade content easier. Most game developers and hobby developers (like me) knows this but if you are knew to game developing learning how tho make these systems will save you a lot of time.
Warframe strikes a good balance between procedurally generated and hand-crafted content. While the vast majority of levels/missions are procedurally generated, all the weapons and Warframes are hand-crafted, and they throw some well-made cinematic quests in when you get deeper into the game.
Blast Tyrant I concur Tenno
I just wish they had more interesting enemies. While there is variety, most of them are super slow and don't present much treat unless you sit in an endless mission for an hour, making the game super easy
Shajirr that's unfortunately inevitable in a game such as warframe. The enemies need to scale with your power level. But you can only make the AI so much smarter, eventually it will feel as if the enemies are cheating, so you will have to scale the health and damage, but eventually they will deal enough damage to one shot you, and you won't deal enough damage to kill them before they do. So yea, scaling is hard. I think there's an extra Credits video about enemy scaling.
This seems like the standard problem of throwing money at a game vs. giving it personal care, which seems to be a thing in AAA games.
But the part that says "money" has a really big number next to it! That automatically means it'll be really good!!!
Mighty Number 9
No Man's Sky
Waterworld
But that one has no money spent on it and I only paid $10, why would that be of any quality?
Stardew Valley
Minecraft
Pick a top-tier indie
Nintendo seems to be doing something similar but different: increasing the total amount of content, but making it all less important, less meaningful. Mario Odyssey and Breath of the Wild both have hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of tiny collectibles that individually mean little. One Moon, shrine, or Korok seed do next to nothing, so you do it again, and again, and again until it finally adds up to something. It’s exceedingly rare that one reward here adds to the lore, understanding of characters or feeling accomplished.
*adds in Hollow knight on that list*
AkaiAzul
True, but they also make sure that getting said small reward is interesting in and of itself, rather than merely for the reward
Swish Fish Terraria. I paid full price, like €7,99 or something, and it feels like I robbed them blind. I have hundreds and hundreds of hours in that game.
I like the cat.
Meow
5:31 I think 2D could actually make it harder in some cases, as it can require every sprite to have multiple versions for different angles and lighting.
Cogmind is a very good example for handmade, cost-effective content. The game's artstyle is ASCII/Simple texture packs, most items aren't visualised aside from a simple ASCII artpiece thats shown upon examining the item, and there's tons of different stuff to find.
For a single developer, adding such a broad list of items, that even sometimes have hidden lore, is no small feat. But by limiting the amount of art that goes into an item, its relatively easy to implement new stuff.
CubeMasterTV
Taby slime :D
This video was a lot less shouty already, you're procedurally getting better at this, Matt!
Just gotta say, Zoe the cat popping in and how Matt changed his voice inflection dramatically to poke a bit of fun at development made this a super fun watch. Yeah, Matt ain't Dan, but I think I'm liking Matt's voice more than I did Dan's, and I've watched this channel for years.
Also, the points he brought up this time makes a good point about working on items with more personalized care versus automating stuff makes so much sense. It reminds me of the scuffle between mass-produced items and handmade items in the real world, as well. Anything to help games stand more apart from each other is glorious!
My problem with Matt at first is that he sounded like a popstar. Big inflections, focus on humor, all these things the popular Tubers do to appeal to the mainstream. That bugged me a lot; Dan made it a point to sound real and grounded, as well as actually invested in what he was talking about.
Matt is slowly changing that, though. I don't think I'm the only one that thinks that, because he's clearly improving there.
I wouldn't go that far - I think Dan's going to be the voice of Extra Credits for me for a while yet - but yeah, Matt's good.
I’ll be honest, Dan’s voice annoyed the crap out of me for quite a while. I’m guessing it may have been a combination of the mic, editing/balancing, and the team being fairly inexperienced at all this, and me just being me.
But after a bit of practice, they got a lot better at stuff, and I got more used to Dan’s voice.
New guy’s had a decent start, and seems to be finding his stride pretty quickly. I think with a bit of time, we’ll all come to enjoy his work.
(though I’ll probably still automatically think of him as “not Dan” for the foreseeable future)
I want to add 2 things to the video:
1) Dwarf fortress does not only have a very good procedural generation, it has deep and intricate system that bring the procedural generation to life, I guess you still want to keep your videos short, but I think a few second of talking more about how to use procedural generation and what to build around it to make the game better rather than just longer and blanderm despite maybe being off topic, could have been nice.
2) A good example for how you can add tons of items if you make them low cost enough: games like Binding of isaac and enther the gungeon: op combos exist, some items feel pointless, but the difficulty and the roguelike elements that force you to get the most of them, and the flavor text of EtG times as you mentioned go a long way in worldbuilding.
I second your first point. Procedural generation can be used very effectively, but it has to be thought about in a way to keep the world both alive and unique. I'd argue you need to be getting content out of procedural generation for it to really be useful. Games like Dwarf Fortress and Rimworld do this through the terrain and resources determining how you build your colony and how you react to a variety of situations, keeping every game different and interesting.
When procedural generation is done well, it vastly expands the amount of worthwhile content a game has. When it's done poorly or without thought to other mechanics, it shrinks the worthwhile content a game has.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something about this video but I feel like saying games don't have a lot of space, npcs, items and monsters is ignoring a lot of great games that are fairly recent. Witcher 3, Fallout 4, Skyrim, Breath of the Wild, hell even Mario Odyssey. The newest Mario game is packed with assets and every power changes how you look and move. You can spend days wandering around Witcher 3 just looking at stuff. Fallout 4 might not have the item or monster variety but the npcs are each distinct and the world is huge. These games are crafted too, not procedurally generated. I feel like you're ignoring a lot of hard work by a bunch of developers by saying we don't have Morrowinds or Baldur's Gates anymore. It might not be most games but those weren't most games at the time either. I feel like nostalgia is clouding your vision to fantastic complex games that are happening right now. Like i said though, maybe I'm not getting something and in the end this is all opinion. I like your videos, I'm just really into rpgs and exploration games.
It's interesting to see you guys rag on procedural loot so much. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on this point, it's just that I vividly remember the old Extra Credits Twitch with Dan Emmons and that guest designer he'd always have on, and they were *huge* proponents of procedural generation as the future of game development. They'd always tout it as the solution to problems and make fun of games that had handcrafted stories. It was a big reason I stopped watching that channel.
That's a super funny anecdote, I wasn't working with EC at the time so that's news to me (and coincidentally or not, Dan Emmons is happily working on Hearthstone at Blizzard!). I do know however that there are plenty of times when EC has had wildly differing opinions among its contributors; just for a few examples, the lootbox episodes went through many edit passes and were a constant source of creative debate between us, and James has said that he disagrees with some of the ideas presented in our Extra Politics mini-series (which was done by an outside guest writer).
--Belinda
Yeah, I'm super glad he got the Hearthstone job, it seems like a natural fit for his design style. I remember that he loved TCGs.
I don't think they're ragging on procedural generation so much as they're ragging on improper use of it. Its a tool just like any other on a designer's belt, one which can be used well or poorly. In the broader context of topic covered in the episode they were making the case the procedural generation is a tool many think to use to solve the issue at hand, but is in reality ineffective or at least more difficult than estimation at first glance. So they're not saying procedural generation is bad, just that it isn't necessarily the tool to solve the problem they have presented (at least not without significant consideration in how to use it). There are certainly many other problems, such as the ones Dan Emmons and the guest designer, which procedural generation *is* the correct tool to use, hence the praise.
i think the larger point is that many people get caught up in thinking that an idea is a silver bullet.
i like how the guys at subset games use procedural generation. they hand craft the items, but generate the scenarios and randomize character skills.
the system is definitely there to increase the amount of content, but it keeps the storytelling advantages of a more traditional system. not to say that there isn't an advantage to procedure items(the block chain video has a great example of this).
truth is that i like the outcomes of both...
Can you send a message to Dan to put the Game card into Hearthstone? Voiced by Dan himself?
The Game
Battlecry: Replay EC's episode on power creep live on the board.
Hey Matt, you're getting better and better with every video. Really like the personality you reflect through your narration, keep up the good work!
I think that this video in particular is the perfect culmination of the facets of Extra Credits which I find most appealing. Although the videos which provide information as to the state of the industry as mingled with some design trends are indeed fantastic in communicating the relatively complex content in such points of discussion in a clear and concrete manner, it is the videos which discuss the design behind games as well as the means by which developers approach implementing or altering such designs where Extra Credits peaks.
This particular video has collated many pressing discussion points as present in the game development climate and laid them down, side-by-side, in an organised fashion thereby eliminating the mists of preconceptions and concerns and has indeed reassured developers such as myself. In discussing this content crisis, its effect on game design and the cost issues of the matter, Extra Credits once again helps to establish a sturdy foundation for understanding the myriad of topics discussed.
It's good to see Extra Credits return and in full force; sticking to its original subject matter while retaining its high quality of presentation.
Why was Daggerfall used as a example when it heavily relies to procedually generated content. Very few thing in that game was handcrafted when it came to content after all. It still like the game however.
(And I think the trick is using a mix. Sometimes is make sense to have a lot of generic items with a lot of variation. After all that exist in out world. Then add in some hero assets that stick out. Daggerfall did this to some degree as there where a few unique items added to the other wise procedually generated stuff.)
I think it was just the example of a COMPLEX game, but I have to agree with your statement. I was more expecting Morrowind to be mentioned (even if it is smaller than Buggerfall), but that might be my personal bias.
Zielman probably because 95% of the hand placed stuff in Morrowind felt just as generic.
@@InfamousArmstrong lmao nope
Very helpful! And applicable to one of my projects...
now i wanna call my Alexa "Zoey"... "Zoey, write that down!" :D
You are growing on me matt 😀👌And those little personal animations like you holding the piece of paper and talking to your cat are pretty good
Modular sword mathematics: 5 swings of 20 no repeats is 1,860,480 combinations.
That would go well with a procedural system. Pick some stats, pick some swing animations, pick or generate a model and generate some description text. Honestly, I think the hardest part of that would be generating some coherent and sensible description text for the item. Though once you got it working for one class of items, it probably wouldn't be too hard to modify it for others.
Mathematical uniqueness is not the same thing as making everything feel unique. See no mans sky planets.
IMO some of the problem of procedurally generated content is the "curse of dimensionality" - having tons of things that are just randomly mixed together actually makes stuff seem really homogeneous because everything is just as different from each other as everything else so nothing is really special. Whereas true "uniqueness" actually comes from the existence of outliers, you need to have a bunch of ordinary equipment that is just slight variations of each other, then a bunch of rare items that are radically different from them. That is what makes the rare items feel special and be memorable.
Let's take a moment to thank the RPG gods for Obsidian Entertainment and Larian Studios existence.
Mhmm.
Pillars of Eternity (both 1 and 2) rocks these rules.
2 is bloody amazing.
You mean the kings of buggy unfinished games? Yeah sure I will rise my cup to Obsidian... Sorry for the sarcasm but damn did PoE sting me harder than I would like it too...
Thank you guys so much for helping me make my video game concepts!
I love your channel and all the series especially Extra History. You guys are amazing. Thank you.
Content Conundrum sounds like a rock band, nice video as always btw
Yeah I'm hearing what people mean when they say our new host sounds like he's shouting.
Well, I am seeing a profile picture that reminds me of a certain table...
The new host can shout and all but please leave table-kun alone...
I mean he's toned it down significantly from the first few videos, sounds good now to me!
He sounds like trying to do an 'announcer voice' instead of just chatting with us.
He sounds waaaaaaay better than he used to. Personally, I could live with the way he's doing it now.
he's calmed down some since the first few. I think he'll settle in and find a confort level eventually.
So glad you guys brought up Good Item Descriptions! I absolutely love the item descriptions in Path Of Exile! Some are rich with lore, others just amazing quotes. It's also one of the reasons I wish Log Horizon season 3 would come out :(.
1:18 - Did I see the Onion Knight for a sec ?? :D - Nice video and great content :)
0:05 don't think I didn't spot that Rincewind cameo!
The day that narrators changed. I’ve found where it began, but now, why?
This is a great topic. I love the games of old because of all the unique, handcrafted content they have in them. I have been sad for quite some time that too many modern games went away from the Baldur's Gate style content system. I'm even sadder that it has to do with chasing cost cutting measures and over the top visual elements. I would rather have a game that spreads its detail focus to all areas and not just focus on the visual/special effects elements to the detriment of small items that can add depth to the world. Also procedural generated games can be lots of fun, but that system like any system requires the developer to care in the first place. If the developer holds a 'set it and forget it' mindset with any aspect of their game, that shows through rather fast.
Also, great work Matt. Your voice work also sounds good (finally).
That Chrono Trigger music in the credits though! Great vid by the way, as I'm trying to make my games in RPG Maker, I'll keep everything in mind.
Want the best example of one of those games?
That came out really recently?
Pillars of eternity 2, deadfire rocks this so hard :)
Pillars of Eternity is one of few classical RPG's that has been made recently. I love that game.
I love *Borderlands* for its characters, world, writing, etc but the loot system drives me up the wall!
*Gearbox:* LOOK AT ALL THESE GUNS!
*Me:* Yeah, 99.99% of which are completely useless chaff.
Give me a gear system like *Bloodbourne* with 30 odd weapons that all feel unique any day.
Hey, player, there are some good and interesting weapons in this game! Now go kill that boss 100 times to get one of them. Oh, and you have to watch an unskippable cutscene every time.
Love the Chromo Trigger cover at the end. Great Stuff!
Nice video as always, really love how the items in games like Dark souls are more of a story element then a gameplay one, even though by the fact that they are item they must by definition be gameplay components. It serves well both the player who wants to unravel a story and the one who wants to choose the best gear for every occasion and all the players in betheen these two.
besides, it gives freedom to the designer to make complicated stories that are still approachable since the item are collected a few at a time. I mean, you don't start a game with 400 different items to analize do you.
That was one of the big disappointments for me in going from Morrowind or Fallout 3 to later iterations of those franchises. In Morrowind and Fallout 3, almost all items were pre-generated. Sure, I could travel the world running errands for some guy to get the Magical Fedora of Power...or I could just conk him in the head with a lead pipe and take it. It was great! Like an NPC's house in Morrowind? Just take it! But in later Elder Scrolls and Fallout games, chests auto-refreshed, enemies scaled to your level, and loot was procedurally generated.
Procedural generation can have its charm, but I think you should either make the game revolve around it completely (like Minecraft, Terarria, and any rogue-like) or leave it out completely (or use it very sparingly). And enemies scaling to your level are hardly ever a good idea, as it is unlogical and completely nullifies the point of leveling up in the first place.
When it comes to hand-crafted games, I'd like to suggest Gothic to you. It has a completely hand-crafted world that is carefully designed to be memorable and navigatable without minimaps or silly waypoint-icons. The areas are designed in such a way that you level up by killing enemies and get progressively stronger, in order to be able to tackle new areas. Enemies don't scale to your level - in fact, they don't even respawn after you kill them.
Plus, the game does not hold your hand like many modern AAA games do, which is also pretty awesome.
+PinochleIsALie I can't think of any cases in Oblivion or Skyrim where loot is procedurally generated, at least not in ways that Morrowind also didn't do. TES games always have vanilla enchanted items be handcrafted, and mobs and containers having randomized and leveled loot was something that was flat-out introduced in Morrowind if I'm remembering correctly. Maybe it was Daggerfall that introduced it, but Morrowind did have the leveled list entities with their own section in the construction kit.
Heck, the enemies scaling to your level has its roots in the fact that the mobs that spawned in Morrowind depended on your level and the fact that humanoid mobs could spawn with leveled loot - sure, that system has certain advantages over mobs just basing their level on the player, but it's still ultimately a very similar result and comes with disadvantages, too.
I don't see where people are coming from with this. Like, if you play DnD, your DM is going to give you combat encounters that are scaled to your level. I mean, they might not, but that's RAW. Leveling areas instead of enemies is an great tool for guiding the player through the world and letting them choose their own difficulty, but it gets in the way of "go anywhere, do anything, make your own story."
Arctangent Yep, procedural loot and scalable enemies were both introduced to TES in Morrowind as far as I know - my knowledge of the earlier games is limited. Procedural loot use has pretty much stayed the same since though, with scalable enemies used a lot more in Oblivion, but only a bit more in Skyrim. People just have such insane nostalgia goggles for Morrowind that they often completely deny that game even had level-scaling anything.
Personally, I find that a good mix of procedural loot and hand-crafted loot provides the best experience. That way, you can always find exciting new gear after fights and can't just memorize where all the good loot is, but there will also always be unique items that you can find and go back to on later playthroughs, and that all players can have shared experiences of.
For enemy scaling, it's a much messier discussion. Like nessesaryschoolthing says, the system is fundamentally designed after what a tabletop experience is like and theoretically ensures that a player can always have a good adventure anywhere they go. In practice, it has to be done *perfectly* or it's underwhelming. Whereas a DM can choose when to give a hard or easy encounter to adjust the pacing of the adventure, Oblivion often fell into the flaw of encounters staying the same difficulty for most of the game, with too few spikes in the interest curve. Another RPG that had level-scaled enemies years before, Final Fantasy 8, actually wound up making its scaling system so much harder the more you leveled up that experienced FF8 players try to stay at as low of a level as possible through the entire game, avoiding XP like the plague - which is super weird and backwards for a RPG.
I don't think I've ever seen level-scaling enemies done well when applied to an entire game like those two tried to - only when it's used on smaller areas or quests, like Morrowind and Skyrim and many others do.
FF8 is not even remotely a hard game. It's one of the easiest in the series. The mechanics are so breakable and abusable it's not even funny. Levels are completely irrelevant. Material for weapons and junctioned spells (so GFs too) are where you get your power from.
Man, I love that Zelda CDi reference.
*Mah Boi*
SAME...
4:48 my RUclips 2008 nostalgia just came up
Glad to see this channel's content is still top notch. Matt's voice is awesome, but I still miss the aesthetic of having some modulation. if it's an option, I would enjoy seeing it explored at least, if not then I guess I'll get used to it. there's just something less cartoony about having the real voices that just feels a little too different, same with the things Dan did without the pitch change like the animation in games stuff.
1:05 so, nioh? yeah, it's bad
0:06 hidden OwO spotted
You toned it down just enough to give it a more relaxed feel but still keep your own persona. Keep up the good work, Matt!
I remember in Final Fantasy VII there was a lot of content that was hidden. Things you could do the entire story time and time again and not find. It was a conversation piece that you could go up to a friend that played and ask "Hey, did you ever find *X item/monster/boss* in your playthrough?"
It was neat, unexpected and was something to be excited about.
I mean... _I_ like Diablo's style of stuff better than Dark Souls' style of stuff.
I guess I'm probably in the minority though. Still, good video.
For me the diablo style of gear is just too "gamey". In Dark Souls, you kill a hollow and take a hollow shield from his corpse, even simple items like that have a logical reason for existing and being found in that particular place in the world. In Diablo, you kill a giant spider and a Super Awesome Sword of +7 Pointiness™ flys out of it, there's no reason why that sword exists or why I got it other than "video games! loot! fun!". Weirdly I don't mind this in games which are overtly arcade-like and actually kind of like it, but in RPGs where you're supposed to be in an actual place with actual context it just turns me off. Just personal preference, and like I said I get the appeal from a purely gameplay perspective.
What's more appealing about the Diablo approach to you? Like you mentioned, basically everyone I've met who likes RPGs seems to prefer the Dark souls approach, I'd be interested to hear your perspective.
Is there a reason why? Genuinely curious.
GOD every show needs a cat!
Krzysiek Kozlowski Meow (How did i even use a phone with these paws to reply to your comment?)
Good video. I'll definitely be using this advice in my game.
This video brought the Dominions series to my mind. Lot's of different types of units, spells, gear and mechanics with accessibility depending on which faction you play. True balance is a hell to create for something like this but the effect on multiplayer is interesting, people often form alliances to stop the people playing the most broken faction from winning, creating reasonable opportunities for the underdog to have a shot at winning.
To be fair, I really like it when a different animation is used for each weapon, and what there is of the world seems perfect. Unfortunately no one but Chris Roberts has thus far been able to effectively combine procedural generation with handcrafted detail and handcrafted like originality. Of course as time goes on we will see more games with great visual and content fidelity, of course the downside being development times.
But here's what I think really happened with regards to the whole procedural generation thing. Minecraft happened. How many procedurally generated games did you see before Minecraft, especially ones that were made by triple a developers. The difference was of course that in the unique way minecraft worked, they were able to procedurally generate a lot of content, and the rest was just left up to the player. What these companies don't realize is that you can't really do that if the player actually has an objective to complete, which is always the case with these triple a games. Well maybe they realize, but every chump thinks they can do better than the rest don't they.
heres a simply clever way to make "procedurally generated" content interesting, have an entire weapon design be like "sword of the fallen empire" and its descriptor is "these swords were mass manufactured by blacksmiths of all ages and skills for the *insert nation here* in preparation for their war against *insert prefered threat here*, in the end though their defeat was inevitable, because of the broad range of blacksmiths crafting these weapons on the basis of quantity over quality, most of them are of rather poor craftsmanship compared to other swords, though few cases of particularly high quality swords have been recorded, they are highly sought after"
now you have a world lore reason why these swords have randomly generated stats, and it would be impractical to hand craft a bunch of these swords, yet the very idea that they are of ambiguous and inconsistent effectiveness is hand crafted to no small degree, would be a decent thing to give as a random drop from the more common foes and if you get lucky, you actually roll a decent sword, maybe even a really good one!
but of course id pair these kinds of things with plenty of individually handcrafted items as well.
I miss the original voice.
Matt, you take the core what I like about Extra Credits: Providing deeper insight into games in an engaging way with your own spin. Complements, because those are big shoes to fill. You are doing a great job!
Well, that was timely and keen... exactly the kind of things I've been thinking about and working on.
It doesn't matter how much money you throw in the production of a AAA game, but how it's used to make a game look and feel genuine.
Which is why I'm looking forward to Spider Man PS4 because it genuinely looks like Insomniac put as much effort as they could to making it feel like a Spider-Man story. You have no idea how happy I am to see my favorite super-hero FINALLY being treated with respect by Marvel after nearly a decade of crappy spin-off after crappy spin-off!
Commentary voice sounds good!
In a lot of older styles of RPGs, characters were so small onscreen that when swords were just eight pixels of your character during their "swing", even something as important as a weapon often wouldn't have a new world graphic, and would simply be a slot on your inventory screen. The same can even be true of games like Rainbow Six, where your weapon model wasn't in the corner like it now is as a standard. That sort of thing wouldn't fly today, and people do expect to see those weapons they picked up, meaning they've inflated in cost quite a bit. That's also sometimes why you see systems of slotting gemstones into weapons to provide more meaningful pickups that are just one sprite in a menu.
Loved this episode! Another underrated cost-saving trick... It doesn't actually matter if you repeat content provided you do so with love, care and energy, and be aware of what you're doing and how you're doing it. Just because people have seen an enemy who specializes in bombs and wears a big helmet doesn't mean you can't rearrange that model to create another enemy who specializes in bombs and wears a big helmet, except this one is a green, ugly ogre not a green, ugly orc (big difference I know!). You can't overuse this of course but it's far more prevalent than people oft give credit.
I'm starting to like this Matt guy.
Can you please do a video on player generated content
I’m glad to see how well Matt is adjusting to the role as narrator. Part of what made it hard for me to get used to his voice was his enthusiasm in his first video, and I’m happy to say that he hit the right tone in this video. Some folk usually take a bit longer to hit their stride. Keep up the good work Matt! And Zoey too!
3:47 i liked the way you change your voice! :) nice touch.
Did you really place Dwarf Fortress & Rogue Legacy in the same "procedural content box"? I love both games, but Rogue Legacy only randomizes the dungeons. A more apt comparison would be Dwarf Fortress vs No Man Sky, they both procedurally generate "everything" and even then, DF wins by a landslide. Another contender could be Ultima Ratio Regum, but it's still under wraps.
What about other deep roguelikes? UnReal World? ADOM? Cataclysm Dark Days Ahead? Tales of Maj'Eyal?
The older games (Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's gate, and other Morrowinds) didn't have that many customization visuals (unless I'm mistaken) you're comparing apple to oranges.
He lumped them both into the box of "procedural generation done right" - and noted that doing it right varies within the context of the game. Using two distinctive and unique examples only supports the point that doing it differently will provide different results of different quality in different types of games.
Your example of comparing DF to NMS shows that DF did procedural everything in a setting where doing so works, while NMS did procedural everything without considering that some of its content would have been much better to be hand-crafted instead.
Procedural is procedural whether only generating levels or everything. Nowhere does the video state it has to be used for all things.
But what caused the change in AAA games to be more procedurally-generated? Isn't the main point of most AAA games to supposed be more expensive but better?
Apparently mediocre games made often make more profits than good games made rarely.
Yes, in theory at least. But the people who makes them (or more like the people who put the money) only want more money, so the more they sell and less "effort" (cuz effort=money) they waste the better.
But is hard to sell a game with 16549 different movesets for example, but is "easy" to sell a game with 4K HD next generation graphics so they focus on that, sometimes at the cost of losing focus on everything else.
Theres exceptions, of course, Im just talking about the norm.
man does this episode hit hard in the wake of E3 great job you guys
Man this perfectly encapsulates my feeling about game design in this modern era of gaming. Have you ever played Legend of Mana on the PS? Fantastic example of memorable AND unique content, and one of the reasons I want to try and learn game development, even if I could only capture a fraction of the magic in that game.
Okay I'll give Matt a chance but the announcer rhythm isn't really for me. I just have hard time following when listening to this style of enthusiastic ups and downs. I just enjoy simple talking to the audience rhythm. Still a good episode, I just had to watch twice to catch everything.
Does this include older(gen1-5) VS newer(gen 6 & 7) Pokemons?
I'm not talking "OMFG GAEMFREK RAN OUTTA IDAES", I'm talking about Megas and regional variants being "reskin" of older Pokemons rather than making entirely new ones. And so when they could get away with having these "reskins", they can also get away with having less completely new Pokemons in the generation(71 new Pokemons in gen 6 and 85 in gen 7).
Alternatively you can even say evolutions/preevolutions added after the base Pokemon's debut generation(Crobat, Kingdra, Gliscor, Electrivire, the babies, etc) may also count, as they're just extend assets of contents that came before.
As far as the last point goes, no, because they're still all-new creatures with new art and lore. The fact that they're new evolutions works as a base, but not always. It still takes time and resources to extent off of them into a new character.
When they add too _many_ new Pokes though, like in Gen 5, you end up with a lot of lower quality Pokemon as well. So it's a bit of a trade off there.
At this point when we have over 800 Pokemon in the roster and most of the games give you methods to catch more Pokemon than are exclusive to that region, I'm not sure we need to have 100+ new Pokemon every generation.
After all, they aren't just reusing "assets" like you say. Sure, they're using old character designs, but every gen they're having to create new assets for every Pokemon, and that's counting *hundreds and hundreds* of them now. And each game has to be able to handle having more and more. Current Pokemon games have to be able to make over 800 unique, fully playable, customizable RPG party members in the game. Because every new Pokemon game has to support _every_ Pokemon. And every time they change the graphics in the series (which they have for every Gen except _maybe_ Gen 7), they have to redo _everything._ I can't really blame them for slowing the addition of new Pokemon at this point.
Reito Shizaki those skins are fan-pandering, not a time/money saver.
I really like every pokemon generation, the one that felt the worst was Johto, 276211151450391264 possible teams without counting things like different abilities, stats and items)
How many Pokemon are they upto now? Several thousand? How many of those are type/stat/move duplicates? I think Gamefreak can be given some slack at this point.
Man, is Matt's narration is growing fast on me! I have to admit I got a bit nervous when Dan left, but it's clear he passed the ball to really good hands!
I've grew accustomed to Dan's sintetized voice and to me it's still the first thing it comes to mind when i think of Extra Credits but I have to say that I'm really enjoying Matt as a host. Totally different true and I usually hate changes but in a couple of months it will all be ok.
Keep up the good work guys
love your voice
Cannot you make your voice sound more... Dan-ish?
Kotsenre K yeah it feels than dan is using auto tunes i kinda get used to that
Big improvement on the voice work. I really think Matt is getting close to hitting the nail on the head with his delivery and think that as time progresses and episodes are produced, he will be a really good presenter for the channel.
And with this video, I'm finally used to your voice being in the videos instead of Dan. And a great video to boot!
I really don't like the new narrator. It sounds like he's shouting and his inflection makes me want to shut off the video.
I know things change, but I miss Dan.
Turn down your volume :)
Did you change the voice again? It feels super relaxing now. Keep it!
Fantastic episode, Baldur’s Gate 2 + DLC is my favorite game of all time, and a lot of it has to do with what you touched on. Pillars of Eternity and Pathfinder: Kingsmaker has made very solid stabs at this, but Pathfinder released with the balance so terribly broken that it destroyed much of the experience for me until dozens of hot fixes later.
4:48 The Legend of Zoey: The Matt of Gamelon
One thing i had legit missed is the extra credits humor. Glad to see it make a comeback.
This video made me think of a game series I'm playing right now, Trails (currently I'm on Trails in the Sky SC. Already played Trails of Cold Steel 1 and 2, and the first Trails in the Sky). Graphically they are not impressive at all, but the world is so well crafted it really feels alive: Pretty much every NPC has a name, a personality and a micro story you can follow if you keep talking to them; the lore is complex and if you pay attention you can really get a good look at the politics and economy of every region you visit.
It's a good example of an awesome world which would not be possible if they tried to give the game a visual AAA polish.
I'm starting to really enjoy listening to Matt speak. When he first took over Extra credits, it was kind of uncomfortable having things play in the background. He had that, sort of 'youtuber voice' that felt really loud and, in your face. But now I feel like I can finally relax and let this run in the background while I work.
Yay, now I don't feel so bummed when making things for games. (That modular sword animation system was a nice idea.)
I've given Matt a few videos to kinda settle in for me and having the Politics videos with Dan still there has made the transition easier. It's not the familiar tuned sound that I've gotten used to but at the same time Matt's obvious enthusiasm for what is being said shines through brilliantly. It's taken a few episodes but I want to say again, welcome to the channel Matt, you'll do great here.
I wasn't convinced Matt could ever replace Dan's wonderful chipmunk voice, but then he had to go and show off how deep and buttery it could get; I am now completely sold.
Enter the Gungeon really strikes a good balance between procedural generation and handcrafted, quality content. While I'm stumbling through a labyrinth of computer-assigned rooms and enemies, I'm also picking up these unique weapons with their own flavor text and gameplay mechanics.
Once, I got a Tear Jerker (yes it fires tears) and was so refreshed by the chance I have to get a potentially bad or good gun. It made me have to work creatively!
It would be really cool to see you guys talk to about the Pillars of Eternity series. I think they would be great examples of content rich modern games that took the old school approach in the first one, then brought it to the modern age in the second. I think they'd make a really interesting study and have plenty to teach devs about.
The weapons that I remember alot are the weapons that the enemies also use like the player. The huge swings the black knights throw around might not be the same swings the player can do but it still gives a feel of power when you are able to wield and utilize it properly. Fighting the balder knights makes the weapons they drop cooler when you get them. Same goes with the magic you see other spellcasters throw.
One of the best weapons I know of is the channelers trident for the dance move it provides. It has a point to using it but more often I find myself using it to befriend other players invading me.
I just wanted to say, I think your doing a very good job living up to the work done before you, and I like your videos. no insult to dan, his videos are amazing, but I do like yours.
I like this new speaker; there voice is varied and crunchy. It is jarring after hearing Dan's pitch shifted voice though. I'd actully like to see a episode of that, just to test the waters.
This sounds a bit random but, you have a serious "radio voice" which is great for narration. That's one of the reasons you excel at this. You enunciate and speak very clearly, and I think it's a good direction to take these episodes; as much as I enjoyed Dan's high pitched cartoony narration lol, your voice gives the show a more professional and accessible feeling to a larger audience. Keep practicing and figuring out how it works best for you and you'll get more comfortable!
1:45
That illustration gave me X-Com flashbacks.
I'm getting used with this new Dan. You really listen to the feedback.
This is totally working out, guys! Keep it up!
You guys mentioning Dwarf Fortress made me very happy.
Great content, Loved that you have a great taste for Castlevania, Aria of Shadow is a perfect example too
By the way, this is old, but I guess I'm the first comment lol
imgur.com/a/w3RaVlK Proof