Bravo Mark, very good video again. I was waiting for it because I`m overdue in re adjusting my machine and I was sure that you would have new tricks since your last tramming video. Thank very much for this one.
hey Mark... I'm a former machinist with 35 years or so experience and enjoyed the tramming which is totally different than I've done on a Bridgeport quite often. I wonder if you might do a video on something I know very little about which is totally unrelated. Could you at some point get a bit in depth into pixels and especially voxels? Appreciate all you've done. You're my ''go to dude''
Thank you, Jay. I live in an area of extreme humidity, with periods of dense fog that can last for a week at a time - sometimes longer. As a result, wood and wood products simply start to rot if they're not sealed. I have to seal my spoilboard to keep it from absorbing moisture from the air and swelling and rotting. I tried it unsealed one year when I first started my CNC journey, and it started to mildew within 6 months. Ever since then, I have sealed the spoilboard, and have had no issues since. It's a minor pain, but it's not too bad.
No. I used to seal my spoilboard, but I haven't bothered for the last couple of years. I haven't noticed any difference in the durability or swelling at all. If I suspect a section has swollen, I just resurface the entire spoilboard, removing .010 inches per pass until it's nice and flat, then carry on.
Mark, Thank you for taking the time to do this video. My question to you is. Do you need to rotate the Traming device all the way around and all have to match on the indicator? I started with Y and it read 19 on both indicators then rotated around 180 degrees and it read different. Then I went x and it read 14 on both indicators then rotated it 180 on x (side to side) and it read 15 and 14. Is it necessary to rotate the device 180 degrees to check readings or is it safe to say that when it read 14 and 19 I had a good tram? Thank you for your advice and awesome videos!
Thank you, Raul. No, you don't have to rotate the tramming indicator, providing you have leveled the plate you're tramming to, and that plate is nice and flat. I invested in a granite surface plate for tramming (as well as a few other applications,) and it really helped me dial in my spindle. I had used a piece of glass in the past, but not all glass is as flat as we assume it to be. You can rotate the tramming indicators it if you'd like - there's no harm in doing so. Just make sure there is no dust or debris on top of the plate you're tramming to. If anything gets under the tip of either of the indicators, it'll give you a bad reading. I didn't bother doing that. I just took all of my readings from the front of the machine, with the tramming indicators facing me. It's also important to remember to adjust the nod (in most cases the Y) in the router/spindle before you even check the tilt (in most cases the X.) The reason is because you're going to have to loosen the router/spindle mount and use shims to adjust the nod out of the router/spindle. The minute you loosen a bolt, you change the tilt - so any adjustment you've made to the tilt will be lost. You can go crazy and waste a lot of time making adjustments if you try to do both at once. Get the nod (front to rear) adjusted out of the router/spindle mount first, then move on to adjusting the tilt (side to side.) Good luck!
I'm leveling the frame in relation to the floor of the shop, not the gantry. If I lift a corner, the gantry rises with it, so the measurement would stay the same, no matter how high I lift it.
@@MarkLindsayCNC I think my point/question was misunderstood. I understand why your using the caliper at( 7 minutes) , but why not use one side of the TRAMMING caliper instead of swapping out if you only use one of the calipers on the traming tool, its the same thing.
What would you use for maximum depth of cut on the flycutter. When I am surfacing to mill a board or to surface the bed I never go over .030, usually .010 or .020. I also slow the spindle rpm. Any feed back or comments welcome.
Amana recommends a depth of cut less than .25 inch per pass with the RC-2255 bit. Yes - less than 1/4 inch. Just between you and me, I'm nowhere near comfortable with trying to take off that much in a single pass. I think the deepest I went per pass was .050 inches.
I haven't done a video on dust collection yet because my ducting system and dust collector location is still temporary. I can tell you from experience that airflow is what you want. Suction from a vacuum cleaner is good, and it'll get you by, but only just. Plus, vacuum cleaners weren't designed to be operated for 4, 5, 6 or more hours at a time - that's why they overheat and burn out so fast. I currently have a Harbor Freight 70 gallon 2 HP dust collector hooked to a Dust Deputy, and it's doing a great job. The filtering from the standard Harbor Freight bag leaves a little to be desired, but it'll flat-out move some material. It won't quite suck a collet wrench out of your hand, but it'll come pretty durned close. I really can't complain about the Harbor Freight unit. Add better filters to it (there are a TON of videos online about upgrades to this dust collector if you search for them,) and it should do a fantastic job.
A cheaper version of the granite surface plate. Get the biggest piece of glass that will fit on your router bed. Then use just a simple dial indicator with the longest arm you can find. The larger the diameter you sweep with the dial = more accurate tram. Thays just my OCD talking 😂
I made a video using that very technique several years back. When I upgraded to the Avid CNC, I decided to try this method. It's been my experience, the method shown in this video is more accurate than the one you described. Thanks for watching!
I'm using an older JS Technologies torque wrench that has a 40 - 200 in lb. range. This torque wrench is no longer made, but here's the closest thing to it from the same company: amzn.to/3CX4j9j
I liked what you started with, by taking the time to level the bed structure. This is something that is lacking in literally all other discussions of cnc tramming. You need to know that you have a level surface to measure off of, otherwise all other subsequent steps will be pointless. So I'm disappointed that you didn't start the tramming process from there. By adding plywood and MDF, you've already spoiled the experiment. You should've used that flat block directly on the CNC bed structure to tram the spindle. THEN added your plywood and MDF, THEN did a spoilboard surfacing/fly cutting. If i could figure out a way of using a laser level and feeler gauges to tram my Axiom AR8, i would, because i think that would be better than most videos I see, where people dont even realize they need to start with a level surface, before anything else.
Tramming to the CNC machine structure wasn't a consideration, nor was it an option. Balancing an 8 inch by 8 inch granite surface plate on a 1.5 inch wide beam, then trying to tram to it is not my idea of starting off on the right foot. Laying down the MDO sub-table, then the MDF table was the way to go. The difference in tram from that point is negligible, if it even exists at all. Remember that I'm a woodworker - not a machinist. I'm setting up a CNC router - not a mill. From a woodworking perspective, 4 digit resolution and accuracy is, to say the least, massive overkill. It's just not needed. Most times 3 digit resolution and accuracy is overkill, but we all strive to be within .001 inches. Yes, it's important to have a level surface to start. But even if you're just 4' beam level, that's good enough for woodworking. I say this as a woodworker with 50+ years of experience in a trade that more often than not has a 1/16 inch builder's tolerance (there are exceptions of course.) Still, you do you. If you want 4 digit resolution and accuracy, I say go for it. I just don't think it's necessary.
The problem with this tramming is all you're doing is matching the out of square of your z-axis with the block or if you use glass they're doing the same thing with glass You're not actually leveling the glass or leveling the block You're just matching the out of square of your z-axis so this is not accomplishing anything
If I haven't accomplished anything, explain to my why I have surfaced literally hundreds of slabs, boards, and glued up panels and have had NO shingling or scalloping. Those items all came off the machine needing only a few passes with 220 grit on my random orbit sander to be finish ready. The process works. Try it.
@@MarkLindsayCNC Read that comment again. You are making two parallel planes (XY of the surface plate is parallel to XY at the spindle, and the spindle itself is perpendicular to that XY plane), but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether those planes are square to the machine planes (XZ or YZ). Since you needed to shim the left side of the surface plate, we know for certain that it is not square to the machine XY if you are calling the top of the spoilboard the XY plane as it stands. Surfacing will not show an issue, because you have made two parallel planes and surfacing operations are done at a constant Z height - but that is it. You will only notice if it is out of square if you are doing precision work, for example you are drilling or milling deep holes and you find the holes are oblong or tilted. If your XZ and YZ planes are square to each other, that is called luck. Dual Y-axis gantry-style machines are prone to XZ and YZ getting knocked out of square relative to each other. If you move too fast or crash the machine running open loop, one motor may lose steps whereas the other might not. There are ways to compensate for that, but I have not seen that implemented frequently in this level of machine. Is your method "good enough" for most woodworking? Sure. Is it truly establishing machinist-level squareness of the machine? No. If you put a precision angle block on your surface plate and swept the indicator along X and Y you could check XZ vs YZ squareness. If you put that precision angle block upright, or use a precision cylindrical square, and sweep the indicator along Z you can check XZ vs XY and YZ vs XY. That 0.011" shim you needed at the bottom of the spindle could be because your gantry (X-axis) itself has a nod. You compensated for that with the shim under the spindle, but that doesn't prove that the Z axis is in fact perpendicular to XY, just that the spindle is perpendicular to XY. Maybe the left side of the gantry is higher than the right, which is why you needed the shims for the surface plate. Again, probably "good enough" for most woodworking, but not technically proven square.
You answered your own questions within your post. "Is your method "good enough" for most woodworking? Sure. Is it truly establishing machinist-level squareness of the machine? No." As I said in the video - I'm not a machinist. I don't claim to be a machinist - never have, never will. I'm a woodworker, and have been one for over 50 years. You're comparing an excavator to a dump truck. They'll both carry an amount of material, but that's where the similarity ends. This is the point that I tried to make at the beginning of the video. Carving wood and machining metal are two different things. There are some basic similarities, but when it comes down to it, the only thing they really have in common is a spinning bit. The materials are different, react to milling different, and the processes used to achieve the final result are different. Where you're used to 4 digit resolution (or more) when it comes to precision, most woodworking doesn't even need 3 digit resolution. Going to the lengths you're describing is just unnecessary. As an aside, the Avid CNC uses proximity sensors to auto-square the left and right sides of the gantry during the homing process, so that's not a concern. In the 20 months I've been using this machine, I've not had a single issue with squareness, accuracy, or repeatability of the machine. So yes, as you said, it's good enough. Thanks for watching.
Bravo Mark, very good video again. I was waiting for it because I`m overdue in re adjusting my machine and I was sure that you would have new tricks since your last tramming video.
Thank very much for this one.
Thank you very much for this video and the very useful information provided.
Well done Mark you covered all the bases😊😊😊😊
Very well done 👍
Good video Mark
hey Mark... I'm a former machinist with 35 years or so experience and enjoyed the tramming which is totally different than I've done on a Bridgeport quite often. I wonder if you might do a video on something I know very little about which is totally unrelated. Could you at some point get a bit in depth into pixels and especially voxels? Appreciate all you've done. You're my ''go to dude''
Thanks for this video. Why did you coat the mdf with poly? Thank you.
Thank you, Jay. I live in an area of extreme humidity, with periods of dense fog that can last for a week at a time - sometimes longer. As a result, wood and wood products simply start to rot if they're not sealed. I have to seal my spoilboard to keep it from absorbing moisture from the air and swelling and rotting. I tried it unsealed one year when I first started my CNC journey, and it started to mildew within 6 months. Ever since then, I have sealed the spoilboard, and have had no issues since. It's a minor pain, but it's not too bad.
Do you find sealing your spoil board stops it from swelling over time?
No. I used to seal my spoilboard, but I haven't bothered for the last couple of years. I haven't noticed any difference in the durability or swelling at all. If I suspect a section has swollen, I just resurface the entire spoilboard, removing .010 inches per pass until it's nice and flat, then carry on.
Mark,
Thank you for taking the time to do this video. My question to you is. Do you need to rotate the Traming device all the way around and all have to match on the indicator? I started with Y and it read 19 on both indicators then rotated around 180 degrees and it read different. Then I went x and it read 14 on both indicators then rotated it 180 on x (side to side) and it read 15 and 14. Is it necessary to rotate the device 180 degrees to check readings or is it safe to say that when it read 14 and 19 I had a good tram?
Thank you for your advice and awesome videos!
Thank you, Raul. No, you don't have to rotate the tramming indicator, providing you have leveled the plate you're tramming to, and that plate is nice and flat. I invested in a granite surface plate for tramming (as well as a few other applications,) and it really helped me dial in my spindle. I had used a piece of glass in the past, but not all glass is as flat as we assume it to be.
You can rotate the tramming indicators it if you'd like - there's no harm in doing so. Just make sure there is no dust or debris on top of the plate you're tramming to. If anything gets under the tip of either of the indicators, it'll give you a bad reading. I didn't bother doing that. I just took all of my readings from the front of the machine, with the tramming indicators facing me.
It's also important to remember to adjust the nod (in most cases the Y) in the router/spindle before you even check the tilt (in most cases the X.) The reason is because you're going to have to loosen the router/spindle mount and use shims to adjust the nod out of the router/spindle. The minute you loosen a bolt, you change the tilt - so any adjustment you've made to the tilt will be lost. You can go crazy and waste a lot of time making adjustments if you try to do both at once. Get the nod (front to rear) adjusted out of the router/spindle mount first, then move on to adjusting the tilt (side to side.) Good luck!
Learned how to cross level of the table!!!!
But I have to ask,. Why not use the tramming indicators for leveling. No need for both?
I'm leveling the frame in relation to the floor of the shop, not the gantry. If I lift a corner, the gantry rises with it, so the measurement would stay the same, no matter how high I lift it.
@@MarkLindsayCNC I think my point/question was misunderstood.
I understand why your using the caliper at( 7 minutes) ,
but why not use one side of the TRAMMING caliper instead of swapping out
if you only use one of the calipers on the traming tool, its the same thing.
What would you use for maximum depth of cut on the flycutter. When I am surfacing to mill a board or to surface the bed I never go over .030, usually .010 or .020. I also slow the spindle rpm. Any feed back or comments welcome.
Amana recommends a depth of cut less than .25 inch per pass with the RC-2255 bit. Yes - less than 1/4 inch. Just between you and me, I'm nowhere near comfortable with trying to take off that much in a single pass. I think the deepest I went per pass was .050 inches.
@@MarkLindsayCNC Thanks, I often back off from what the manufactures say the bits will do.
Hi Mark, do you have any recommendations for a cheap dust collector. My shop vac isn’t cutting it on my axiom cnc
I haven't done a video on dust collection yet because my ducting system and dust collector location is still temporary. I can tell you from experience that airflow is what you want. Suction from a vacuum cleaner is good, and it'll get you by, but only just. Plus, vacuum cleaners weren't designed to be operated for 4, 5, 6 or more hours at a time - that's why they overheat and burn out so fast. I currently have a Harbor Freight 70 gallon 2 HP dust collector hooked to a Dust Deputy, and it's doing a great job. The filtering from the standard Harbor Freight bag leaves a little to be desired, but it'll flat-out move some material. It won't quite suck a collet wrench out of your hand, but it'll come pretty durned close. I really can't complain about the Harbor Freight unit. Add better filters to it (there are a TON of videos online about upgrades to this dust collector if you search for them,) and it should do a fantastic job.
A cheaper version of the granite surface plate. Get the biggest piece of glass that will fit on your router bed. Then use just a simple dial indicator with the longest arm you can find. The larger the diameter you sweep with the dial = more accurate tram. Thays just my OCD talking 😂
I made a video using that very technique several years back. When I upgraded to the Avid CNC, I decided to try this method. It's been my experience, the method shown in this video is more accurate than the one you described. Thanks for watching!
What torgue wrench are you using? Great video!
I'm using an older JS Technologies torque wrench that has a 40 - 200 in lb. range. This torque wrench is no longer made, but here's the closest thing to it from the same company: amzn.to/3CX4j9j
@@MarkLindsayCNC Thank you Mark.
I liked what you started with, by taking the time to level the bed structure. This is something that is lacking in literally all other discussions of cnc tramming. You need to know that you have a level surface to measure off of, otherwise all other subsequent steps will be pointless.
So I'm disappointed that you didn't start the tramming process from there.
By adding plywood and MDF, you've already spoiled the experiment. You should've used that flat block directly on the CNC bed structure to tram the spindle. THEN added your plywood and MDF, THEN did a spoilboard surfacing/fly cutting.
If i could figure out a way of using a laser level and feeler gauges to tram my Axiom AR8, i would, because i think that would be better than most videos I see, where people dont even realize they need to start with a level surface, before anything else.
Tramming to the CNC machine structure wasn't a consideration, nor was it an option. Balancing an 8 inch by 8 inch granite surface plate on a 1.5 inch wide beam, then trying to tram to it is not my idea of starting off on the right foot. Laying down the MDO sub-table, then the MDF table was the way to go. The difference in tram from that point is negligible, if it even exists at all. Remember that I'm a woodworker - not a machinist. I'm setting up a CNC router - not a mill. From a woodworking perspective, 4 digit resolution and accuracy is, to say the least, massive overkill. It's just not needed. Most times 3 digit resolution and accuracy is overkill, but we all strive to be within .001 inches. Yes, it's important to have a level surface to start. But even if you're just 4' beam level, that's good enough for woodworking. I say this as a woodworker with 50+ years of experience in a trade that more often than not has a 1/16 inch builder's tolerance (there are exceptions of course.) Still, you do you. If you want 4 digit resolution and accuracy, I say go for it. I just don't think it's necessary.
The problem with this tramming is all you're doing is matching the out of square of your z-axis with the block or if you use glass they're doing the same thing with glass You're not actually leveling the glass or leveling the block You're just matching the out of square of your z-axis so this is not accomplishing anything
If I haven't accomplished anything, explain to my why I have surfaced literally hundreds of slabs, boards, and glued up panels and have had NO shingling or scalloping. Those items all came off the machine needing only a few passes with 220 grit on my random orbit sander to be finish ready. The process works. Try it.
@@MarkLindsayCNC Read that comment again. You are making two parallel planes (XY of the surface plate is parallel to XY at the spindle, and the spindle itself is perpendicular to that XY plane), but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether those planes are square to the machine planes (XZ or YZ). Since you needed to shim the left side of the surface plate, we know for certain that it is not square to the machine XY if you are calling the top of the spoilboard the XY plane as it stands. Surfacing will not show an issue, because you have made two parallel planes and surfacing operations are done at a constant Z height - but that is it. You will only notice if it is out of square if you are doing precision work, for example you are drilling or milling deep holes and you find the holes are oblong or tilted. If your XZ and YZ planes are square to each other, that is called luck. Dual Y-axis gantry-style machines are prone to XZ and YZ getting knocked out of square relative to each other. If you move too fast or crash the machine running open loop, one motor may lose steps whereas the other might not. There are ways to compensate for that, but I have not seen that implemented frequently in this level of machine. Is your method "good enough" for most woodworking? Sure. Is it truly establishing machinist-level squareness of the machine? No. If you put a precision angle block on your surface plate and swept the indicator along X and Y you could check XZ vs YZ squareness. If you put that precision angle block upright, or use a precision cylindrical square, and sweep the indicator along Z you can check XZ vs XY and YZ vs XY. That 0.011" shim you needed at the bottom of the spindle could be because your gantry (X-axis) itself has a nod. You compensated for that with the shim under the spindle, but that doesn't prove that the Z axis is in fact perpendicular to XY, just that the spindle is perpendicular to XY. Maybe the left side of the gantry is higher than the right, which is why you needed the shims for the surface plate. Again, probably "good enough" for most woodworking, but not technically proven square.
You answered your own questions within your post. "Is your method "good enough" for most woodworking? Sure. Is it truly establishing machinist-level squareness of the machine? No." As I said in the video - I'm not a machinist. I don't claim to be a machinist - never have, never will. I'm a woodworker, and have been one for over 50 years. You're comparing an excavator to a dump truck. They'll both carry an amount of material, but that's where the similarity ends. This is the point that I tried to make at the beginning of the video. Carving wood and machining metal are two different things. There are some basic similarities, but when it comes down to it, the only thing they really have in common is a spinning bit. The materials are different, react to milling different, and the processes used to achieve the final result are different. Where you're used to 4 digit resolution (or more) when it comes to precision, most woodworking doesn't even need 3 digit resolution. Going to the lengths you're describing is just unnecessary. As an aside, the Avid CNC uses proximity sensors to auto-square the left and right sides of the gantry during the homing process, so that's not a concern. In the 20 months I've been using this machine, I've not had a single issue with squareness, accuracy, or repeatability of the machine. So yes, as you said, it's good enough. Thanks for watching.