Document with bibliography; sources, literature and suggestions for further reading on Teb Tengri, shamans and related topics. docs.google.com/document/d/1sXUechMan3ajOmkTsa-c5rNvlEP2tQJrws4WHBnpBcs/edit?usp=sharing
If they make a film about Mongols in the Middle Ages, you should do their costumes and scene decors. Your works are indeed research-based something or very well observant. Clothing and objects are depicted really correctly. As a Mongolian, I can attest that.
Thank you! If only to be so lucky. I try to learn more every time and keep updating things; there is always something new to learn about the material culture of the period.
Judging from some of the AI examples I have seen, the AI programs default to giving them, in many cases, Chinese robes and hair styles, which is disappointing.
Imagine being temujin and this dude you met after his dad married your mom tells you "great heaven above told me to tell you that the world's yours you just gotta take it and act accordingly"
This guy's manipulation must've ran deep, the way they deal with him seems like an act of desperation. Also, Hulk Hogan body slammin the Pope comes to mind.
The sources more or less say Chinggis was, for a time, totally under his thumb; I somewhat suspect there was a certain level of embarrassment over just how swayed by Teb Tenggeri Chinggis khan was
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Chinggis seemed to be especially swayed by holy men and their words, or at the very least he liked to entertain what they had to say. Reminds me about a video that Premodernist made about the time when the Taoist master Qiu Chuji met Chinggis, when Chinggis was urged to stop his violent ways.
Just realized only now that the word for shaman in mongol script бөө böge and the word for wrestler бөх böke and the word for strong and firm is бат бөх and the бөх is still written as böke and the word and 2 more words with different meanings are written the same in mongol script as ke/khe/he/хэ and ge/гэ are written the same
Yes, the ambiguity for certain words in Uyghurjin is one of its hardest features. The more I have learned it, the more I understand how there can be such discrepancies in trying to reconstruct some of the names. Of course, we still end up with similar problems even with English written in the Latin alphabet.
We have a lots of references to Mongols only going on campaign after getting word from shamans that they would be successful, or refusing to go on campaign because the shamans saw bad omens. We also get references to Khans like Möngke getting repeated readings from shamans; I wonder how much of this was "the shamans' actual predictions" vs. the Mongols deciding the military situation was unfavourable, and using the shamans as an excuse to avoid admitting it. Can be a bit of both I suppose; making a show of shaman consultations and getting supernatural support, was for the troops to feel confident as much as anything I would wager.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Are the shamans of the 13th century really a priestly class, as Europeans encountered in the 19th century, or are they simply a group of disconnected people who showed themselves capable of doing extraordinary things (walking naked in the snow, ascending to the Tengri's place, making prophecies, etc.) and thus taking on the role of advisors?
@@Spartan_Disiplin There is a certain "class" to them; they had some sort of ranking system (references to "chief shamans" exist as I noted in my other reply) and certain conception of "badges of office" and duties that they had (I.e, Rashid al-Din makes a note that shamans were apparently well-known to use thistle as small whips). They are presumed to have often been hereditary and many secrets passed on through that method. We see them most usually in the roles of astrologers/diviners of natural phenomena or as physicians, and presumably the knowledge for these things was passed on in a somewhat organized manner. Especially after Chinggis' reign (particularly during 1240s-50s) we get lots of references to groups of shamans being consulted. While there was not, perhaps, formal ranks in a way that we see with European clergy, there was some amount of organization that goes beyond just "one fellow doing extraordinary things and becoming a holyman" (though that certainly is an element, as the next video goes into a bit more).
@@Spartan_Disiplin What there probably was, was something of a "two-layered" system: hereditary shamans (sons of previous shamans who are taught by the fathers or in some cases mothers, as we have a few references to female shamans) as well as thus who become "inducted" into becoming shamans, because of doing extraordinary things. Some sort of 'elemental control' is also a common-enough expectation of shamans: such as Teb Tengri's things here, but also the jat/yada weather stones, and Rubruck notes how during periods of extreme cold, shamans would hunt out people who "caused" the extreme cold and order their deaths, saying those people had caused the cold through some wickedness. So probably, extraordinary things helped a person become a shaman, but also were something a shaman was expected to be able to do.
@@Spartan_Disiplin I don't know it so well, but my understanding is that we get more information about shamans in 1500s/1600s, when there is the competition with Buddhism, and those sources do more to portray a bit more of a "class" and element of unity amongst the shamans. But I would have to look through those sources to be more confident on that.
Möngke literally means ‘eternal ’ in Mongolian , and usually come along with Tengri like Koke Möngke ‘Blue eternal heaven’, so indeed a very auspicious name
Certainly! The reference comes from the Basic Annals of Möngke in the Yuan Shi (juan 3). This is my translation of the German translation by Abramowski: “In the year mou-ch'en (1209) in the 12th month on the 3rd day, at the time when the emperor (Möngke) was born, there was a man from the Huang-hu-ta (Qongqotat) lineage, who understood the interpretation of celestial phenomena. He prophesied that the emperor would certainly achieve high honors. Therefore he was given the name Meng-ko (Möngke). (Commentary: In Chinese it means “long life.”)" So basically it's saying that in 1209, when Möngke was born, a man from the Qongqotan read certain heavenly portents to predict a great future for the newly born child. This is something we read of shamans doing in other cases (we read from William of Rubruck, how shamans came to make predictions for the future of a newly born son of Möngke. They predicted great things for him, only for the boy to die soon after much to Möngke's anger). So we can presume the "man from the Qongqotan" was a shaman. Of course, in this period the most prominent Qongqotan shaman (and most prominent shaman among the Mongols) was Teb Tenggeri himself. While it is possible that it was another Qongqotan man, or even Teb's father Mönglik, the fact that the Qongqotan man goes un-named, makes me think it was the out-of-favour Teb Tenggeri. It can't be conclusively proven, but on the basis of probability I think it's very likely to have been Teb.
Women can tell when someone is getting greedily sneaky, and needs to be challenged quickly. It's probably because of women's years of dealing with children and the ability to watch - in real time - the development of greed and deviousness in children UNLESS you deal with them immediately, otherwise it only gets worse.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I disagree with your theory that as centralization increased, Tengrism became a monotheistic religion. The best example of this was when Ibn Fadlan passing through the lands of the Oghuzs which were not centralized yet, noted that they believe in one god.
It's a topic I should explore more. I haven't found enough evidence for that theory, so I have never written anything to defend the position. It might be wrong and needs to be properly investigated, so I don't try to incorporate it into my writing.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I saw a comment in one of your old videos where you defended this theory. It's pretty old, so it's not unusual if you don't remember it.
We have references of "chief shamans" for the rest of the empire. William of Rubruck has this observation during his journey to Möngke's ordu in the 1250s: "There are many of them [the shamans, here called divini in latin], and they always have a chief, a sort of pontiff who regularly sets up his quarters in front of Mangu Chan's principal dwelling, at a stone's throw's distance. He is in charge, as I have said before, of the wagons on which their idols are carried. The rest are to be found behind the residence in the positions allotted to them, and are visited by people from various parts of the world who put their faith in this art. “ (Rubruck/Jackson, XXXV, 30). What is interesting though, is that while we still get mentions of these "popes" of the shamans, I don't think their names, or even lineages, are ever recorded. It was important to keep them visible, but they don't appear to ever develop the same political sway ever again in the manner Teb had.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Could they have been influenced by Buddhists or Cuman/Qanglı in western steppe ? Because in the secret history there is no mention of idols, shaman class or totems.Even famous Yada stone is not used by the Mongols, but by their enemies (Naymans, Oirats, Kipchaks). It gave the impression to me that Genghis Khan and the Mongols before him were practicing a very superficial version of the Tengri belief. As they merged with Buddhists and the peoples of the western steppes, they incorporated(or inspired by) some elements and hierarchy into their beliefs.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory For example Cumans erected statues called balbals all over the lands they ruled. The Mongols did not have it. There were Kurgan graves in Cuman lands which they were buried with their belongings. Do we realy know how the Mongols were buried before Chinggis Khan and his heirs? For example, were Yesügey or Kabul Khan buried with their belongings, or were their bodies left on a lofty mountain as in Conn Iggulden's novels ? How much of what Rubruk sees are realy elements that the Mongols originaly have. If every family has its own idol, as Rubruk says, why its not mentioned in the secret history ? If there is a shaman hierarchy, where are Teb Tengri's shaman subordinates and so forth..
@@Spartan_Disiplin The follow up video will actually talk a bit about the fact the Secret History does not discuss shamans (very much). Regarding yada stones, we have an interesting mention of the Mongol army making use of them in 1232 during the battle of Sanfeng Mountain against the Jin Dynasty... but very interestingly, it is specified that it is a Qangli in Mongol service who uses it. So yes, at least in the 12th/early 13th century, there does not appear to be direct evidence for use of the weather stones (though I seem to recall there is some 14th and later century references to them, so they probably pick up the practice in the 1200s).
I just dont understand what is end game of Teb Tengri guy How can he shake Chinggis Khan's prestige by having his brothers beaten, and even if he does, how much of an impact can he have? Genghis Khan has already firmly established his system, the serfization of the common people has been completed after 30 year struggle. The winner of the so-called "Khan-Shaman conflict" is already clear. Couldn't he have used Tebe Tenger as an excuse to restrict his brothers' powers so that they wouldn't cause trouble for his sons in the future? When he was done, he handed him over to his brother (after reduced the number of soldiers he had) to kill him. I think this is the most logical explanation.
A valid question. We must remember though, all of our sources about Teb Tenggeri's life are from a very specific viewpoint. Everything we know about his life, has been entirely filtered through the words of the guys he tried to undermine and who also killed him (even Juvaini and Rashid al-Din, can only know what Mongols were saying about him decades after the event). The version we are told is in all likelihood, somewhat selective in terms of the facts that survive. One possibility, is that Chinggis Khan's rule was initially a lot more fragile than we are led to believe and that Teb's efforts were much closer to succeeding than we think. Or as you say, Teb became a scape-goat for Chinggis to weaken his brothers, especially Qasar. It seems that Chinggis and Qasar had a poor relationship, and Qasar at a certain point defects to Ong Khan until Temujin basically blackmails him into betraying the Ong Khan.
Of course, it is also possible too that the accounts are more-or-less accurate, if glossing over some details; it's entirely possible just mad a very, very bad calculation and dramatically overestimated both his influence and how much he had control he had over Chinggis. Overconfident, believing himself protected by heaven and refusing to think Chinggis would ever let anything happen to him, he might have thought he could reduce the Khan to a figurehead. In which case, Teb suffered from a very human-trait: he was possibly just an arrogant dumbass who got to find out the hard way, that he wasn't quite as clever as he thought he was.
Document with bibliography; sources, literature and suggestions for further reading on Teb Tengri, shamans and related topics. docs.google.com/document/d/1sXUechMan3ajOmkTsa-c5rNvlEP2tQJrws4WHBnpBcs/edit?usp=sharing
If they make a film about Mongols in the Middle Ages, you should do their costumes and scene decors. Your works are indeed research-based something or very well observant. Clothing and objects are depicted really correctly. As a Mongolian, I can attest that.
Thank you! If only to be so lucky. I try to learn more every time and keep updating things; there is always something new to learn about the material culture of the period.
Pretty good drawing. it's very accurate. Most people draw more Chinese looks. 😊
Judging from some of the AI examples I have seen, the AI programs default to giving them, in many cases, Chinese robes and hair styles, which is disappointing.
Watch 2007 Mongol by Sergei Bodrov
@@kagar3465 that movie is nice movie but don’t take it literally everything in that movie, clothing, hair style, story lines.
6:20 "I was wondering what will break first, your spirit or your body."
I suppose I missed an opportunity to do a "Bane breaking Batman's back" reference visually there.
He had almost everything, but had to waste it by being petty and rude...
"Don't bite the hand that feeds you," and all that I suppose.
Love the details here especially 6:53 with the guards coming around the khan and all the details on the shamans 3:40
Glad you appreciated them!
Glad you"re uploading again Jack! Missed your work.
Wow, a shaman going up against the con. This is pretty amazing. Good job Jack.
Con?
Extremely underrated channel. Love the animations. CH
Thank you!
thanks Jack! from Mongolia with love
Outstanding as usual
Thank you!
Awesome work Mr Meister! Glad to see you back again
Never too far away, just don't have enough hours in the day for all I need to accomplish
I love you so much for making these videos❤
👍👍👍 vs Genghis Kahn, that can't end well😁
Imagine being temujin and this dude you met after his dad married your mom tells you "great heaven above told me to tell you that the world's yours you just gotta take it and act accordingly"
We should be thankful, more step-children don't convince their step-siblings to try and conquer the world.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory would be a more interesting one though
I was correct at guessing this video
Many dont realize how grand and cool the name Tew Tenger sounds is in the Mongolian language.
This guy's manipulation must've ran deep, the way they deal with him seems like an act of desperation. Also, Hulk Hogan body slammin the Pope comes to mind.
The sources more or less say Chinggis was, for a time, totally under his thumb; I somewhat suspect there was a certain level of embarrassment over just how swayed by Teb Tenggeri Chinggis khan was
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Chinggis seemed to be especially swayed by holy men and their words, or at the very least he liked to entertain what they had to say. Reminds me about a video that Premodernist made about the time when the Taoist master Qiu Chuji met Chinggis, when Chinggis was urged to stop his violent ways.
@@anonymous1582 there will be a follow up video talking more about Chinggis' interactions with these holy men, and Qiu Chuji.
Why dont we ask Teb Tengri himself? He came back from his exile!
Just realized only now that the word for shaman in mongol script бөө böge and the word for wrestler бөх böke and the word for strong and firm is бат бөх and the бөх is still written as böke and the word and 2 more words with different meanings are written the same in mongol script as ke/khe/he/хэ and ge/гэ are written the same
Yes, the ambiguity for certain words in Uyghurjin is one of its hardest features. The more I have learned it, the more I understand how there can be such discrepancies in trying to reconstruct some of the names. Of course, we still end up with similar problems even with English written in the Latin alphabet.
5:36 bro give them some space Temuge 😭
Made it here before the Anatolians
separation of shaman and state
I would like to buy a good set of mongol armor but u can’t find any anywhere
As Seneca said: “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.”
We have a lots of references to Mongols only going on campaign after getting word from shamans that they would be successful, or refusing to go on campaign because the shamans saw bad omens. We also get references to Khans like Möngke getting repeated readings from shamans; I wonder how much of this was "the shamans' actual predictions" vs. the Mongols deciding the military situation was unfavourable, and using the shamans as an excuse to avoid admitting it. Can be a bit of both I suppose; making a show of shaman consultations and getting supernatural support, was for the troops to feel confident as much as anything I would wager.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Are the shamans of the 13th century really a priestly class, as Europeans encountered in the 19th century, or are they simply a group of disconnected people who showed themselves capable of doing extraordinary things (walking naked in the snow, ascending to the Tengri's place, making prophecies, etc.) and thus taking on the role of advisors?
@@Spartan_Disiplin There is a certain "class" to them; they had some sort of ranking system (references to "chief shamans" exist as I noted in my other reply) and certain conception of "badges of office" and duties that they had (I.e, Rashid al-Din makes a note that shamans were apparently well-known to use thistle as small whips). They are presumed to have often been hereditary and many secrets passed on through that method. We see them most usually in the roles of astrologers/diviners of natural phenomena or as physicians, and presumably the knowledge for these things was passed on in a somewhat organized manner. Especially after Chinggis' reign (particularly during 1240s-50s) we get lots of references to groups of shamans being consulted. While there was not, perhaps, formal ranks in a way that we see with European clergy, there was some amount of organization that goes beyond just "one fellow doing extraordinary things and becoming a holyman" (though that certainly is an element, as the next video goes into a bit more).
@@Spartan_Disiplin What there probably was, was something of a "two-layered" system: hereditary shamans (sons of previous shamans who are taught by the fathers or in some cases mothers, as we have a few references to female shamans) as well as thus who become "inducted" into becoming shamans, because of doing extraordinary things. Some sort of 'elemental control' is also a common-enough expectation of shamans: such as Teb Tengri's things here, but also the jat/yada weather stones, and Rubruck notes how during periods of extreme cold, shamans would hunt out people who "caused" the extreme cold and order their deaths, saying those people had caused the cold through some wickedness. So probably, extraordinary things helped a person become a shaman, but also were something a shaman was expected to be able to do.
@@Spartan_Disiplin I don't know it so well, but my understanding is that we get more information about shamans in 1500s/1600s, when there is the competition with Buddhism, and those sources do more to portray a bit more of a "class" and element of unity amongst the shamans. But I would have to look through those sources to be more confident on that.
Can you explain more about him naming Mongke? Didn't understand that part
Möngke literally means ‘eternal ’ in Mongolian , and usually come along with Tengri like Koke Möngke ‘Blue eternal heaven’, so indeed a very auspicious name
Certainly! The reference comes from the Basic Annals of Möngke in the Yuan Shi (juan 3). This is my translation of the German translation by Abramowski: “In the year mou-ch'en (1209) in the 12th month on the 3rd day, at the time when the emperor (Möngke) was born, there was a man from the Huang-hu-ta (Qongqotat) lineage, who understood the interpretation of celestial phenomena. He prophesied that the emperor would certainly achieve high honors. Therefore he was given the name Meng-ko (Möngke). (Commentary: In Chinese it means “long life.”)"
So basically it's saying that in 1209, when Möngke was born, a man from the Qongqotan read certain heavenly portents to predict a great future for the newly born child. This is something we read of shamans doing in other cases (we read from William of Rubruck, how shamans came to make predictions for the future of a newly born son of Möngke. They predicted great things for him, only for the boy to die soon after much to Möngke's anger). So we can presume the "man from the Qongqotan" was a shaman. Of course, in this period the most prominent Qongqotan shaman (and most prominent shaman among the Mongols) was Teb Tenggeri himself. While it is possible that it was another Qongqotan man, or even Teb's father Mönglik, the fact that the Qongqotan man goes un-named, makes me think it was the out-of-favour Teb Tenggeri. It can't be conclusively proven, but on the basis of probability I think it's very likely to have been Teb.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory thank you!
Women can tell when someone is getting greedily sneaky, and needs to be challenged quickly.
It's probably because of women's years of dealing with children and the ability to watch - in real time - the development of greed and deviousness in children UNLESS you deal with them immediately, otherwise it only gets worse.
more video about tengrizm !!!
One day I will talk more about it! But it's a big topic to address properly.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I disagree with your theory that as centralization increased, Tengrism became a monotheistic religion. The best example of this was when Ibn Fadlan passing through the lands of the Oghuzs which were not centralized yet, noted that they believe in one god.
It's a topic I should explore more. I haven't found enough evidence for that theory, so I have never written anything to defend the position. It might be wrong and needs to be properly investigated, so I don't try to incorporate it into my writing.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory I saw a comment in one of your old videos where you defended this theory. It's pretty old, so it's not unusual if you don't remember it.
After the execution of Teb Tengri, one of the Baarin chiefs was appointed in his place.
We have references of "chief shamans" for the rest of the empire. William of Rubruck has this observation during his journey to Möngke's ordu in the 1250s:
"There are many of them [the shamans, here called divini in latin], and they always have a chief, a sort of pontiff who regularly sets up his quarters in front of Mangu Chan's principal dwelling, at a stone's throw's distance. He is in charge, as I have said before, of the wagons on which their idols are carried. The rest are to be found behind the residence in the positions allotted to them, and are visited by people from various parts of the world who put their faith in this art. “ (Rubruck/Jackson, XXXV, 30).
What is interesting though, is that while we still get mentions of these "popes" of the shamans, I don't think their names, or even lineages, are ever recorded. It was important to keep them visible, but they don't appear to ever develop the same political sway ever again in the manner Teb had.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory Could they have been influenced by Buddhists or Cuman/Qanglı in western steppe ? Because in the secret history there is no mention of idols, shaman class or totems.Even famous Yada stone is not used by the Mongols, but by their enemies (Naymans, Oirats, Kipchaks).
It gave the impression to me that Genghis Khan and the Mongols before him were practicing a very superficial version of the Tengri belief. As they merged with Buddhists and the peoples of the western steppes, they incorporated(or inspired by) some elements and hierarchy into their beliefs.
@@TheJackmeisterMongolHistory For example Cumans erected statues called balbals all over the lands they ruled. The Mongols did not have it. There were Kurgan graves in Cuman lands which they were buried with their belongings. Do we realy know how the Mongols were buried before Chinggis Khan and his heirs? For example, were Yesügey or Kabul Khan buried with their belongings, or were their bodies left on a lofty mountain as in Conn Iggulden's novels ? How much of what Rubruk sees are realy elements that the Mongols originaly have. If every family has its own idol, as Rubruk says, why its not mentioned in the secret history ? If there is a shaman hierarchy, where are Teb Tengri's shaman subordinates and so forth..
@@Spartan_Disiplin The follow up video will actually talk a bit about the fact the Secret History does not discuss shamans (very much). Regarding yada stones, we have an interesting mention of the Mongol army making use of them in 1232 during the battle of Sanfeng Mountain against the Jin Dynasty... but very interestingly, it is specified that it is a Qangli in Mongol service who uses it. So yes, at least in the 12th/early 13th century, there does not appear to be direct evidence for use of the weather stones (though I seem to recall there is some 14th and later century references to them, so they probably pick up the practice in the 1200s).
I just dont understand what is end game of Teb Tengri guy
How can he shake Chinggis Khan's prestige by having his brothers beaten, and even if he does, how much of an impact can he have? Genghis Khan has already firmly established his system, the serfization of the common people has been completed after 30 year struggle. The winner of the so-called "Khan-Shaman conflict" is already clear. Couldn't he have used Tebe Tenger as an excuse to restrict his brothers' powers so that they wouldn't cause trouble for his sons in the future? When he was done, he handed him over to his brother (after reduced the number of soldiers he had) to kill him. I think this is the most logical explanation.
A valid question. We must remember though, all of our sources about Teb Tenggeri's life are from a very specific viewpoint. Everything we know about his life, has been entirely filtered through the words of the guys he tried to undermine and who also killed him (even Juvaini and Rashid al-Din, can only know what Mongols were saying about him decades after the event). The version we are told is in all likelihood, somewhat selective in terms of the facts that survive. One possibility, is that Chinggis Khan's rule was initially a lot more fragile than we are led to believe and that Teb's efforts were much closer to succeeding than we think. Or as you say, Teb became a scape-goat for Chinggis to weaken his brothers, especially Qasar. It seems that Chinggis and Qasar had a poor relationship, and Qasar at a certain point defects to Ong Khan until Temujin basically blackmails him into betraying the Ong Khan.
Of course, it is also possible too that the accounts are more-or-less accurate, if glossing over some details; it's entirely possible just mad a very, very bad calculation and dramatically overestimated both his influence and how much he had control he had over Chinggis. Overconfident, believing himself protected by heaven and refusing to think Chinggis would ever let anything happen to him, he might have thought he could reduce the Khan to a figurehead. In which case, Teb suffered from a very human-trait: he was possibly just an arrogant dumbass who got to find out the hard way, that he wasn't quite as clever as he thought he was.
🗿👍
Cengiz Han bile olsan dincilerle başın dertte oluyor.