In regards to the victim complex of conservatives, this famous quote explains an element of it: "When someone is accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
It also falls in line with the historic self victimization of Christians. Oppression of Christian’s in the Roman Empire was very localized to individual communities and not concerted in anyway. To most people Christian’s were just a weirdo Jewish sect.
Yes, my understanding is that most of the statues were put up in Jim Crow era as a response to the civil rights movement. They were intentionally made as a way to make a racist statement.
@@Schu0086that's my understanding as well. One difference I think is striking as well when compared to statues and monuments across history is this: these statues are of the losers, not the conquerors. They are also of the treasons, not the patriots.
I loved the debate between you two on “monuments”. Not only was it thought provoking but you two also demonstrated how to disagree on a contentious issue in a respectful way. Good stuff!
What’s funny about the happy holidays thing is that ironically a lot of the most famous Christmas songs like “white Christmas” and “chestnuts roosting on an open fire” and “let it snow” were written by Jewish song writers.
10:30 in regards to confederate statues, i think the difference between all historical relics and these statues is that a statue is a celebration of a specific person. It’s a dedication. If we go by “oh this was built on blood, then the whole US would need to be destroyed. And i think it’s a moo point to say because if that’s the case then we do nothing about anything, ever. Because the extreme ends of the spectrum don’t make sense. These Statues don’t hold significance when they’re actively celebrating these people that actively and outwardly supported and contributed too things like slavery and systemic issues. We have to start with the obvious. You don’t even need to destroy them, like another commenter said, stick them in a museum and add context to them. We just don’t need them to be erected as if it’s a celebration of them
16:38 the difference between founding fathers / other slaveowners, and all the civil war generals is that they would die for the right to own other humans, and killed a lot of Americans who didn’t support owning humans, and the humans to be owned are still suffering from the generational trauma and systematic oppression to this day. So making a monument to their oppressor isn’t historical, because they can be in a museum without massive monument and still be remembered historically, it’s to oppress
"Happy holidays" comes from "happy holy days"- in that way, it does quite well at covering the whole scope of traditional celebrations people all over the world have around winter time.
I don’t believe in destroying records of history. Just like we shouldn’t burn books. We need to preserve them, but acknowledge the historical context. We need to know about the brutality, rape, land stealing, and why the statues were created. Why did people hold slave owners in such high regard, enough to craft sculptures into a Stone Mountain GA? Who were the artisans who created it, how was it funded? Where are their ancestors now? Keep up all these statues, in a museum. “Racism in America History Month” will become very interesting.
This is such an interesting conversation. We have a statue in Vienna of an antisemite that's regularly being sprayed and marked for that reason. And while I don't want to be the person making the decisions, I think I actually prefer that over taking it down, because it is part of history and I would be afraid of taking down the statues and forgetting where we came from, even if that's a shameful history. If we're going to take it down, please put it in a museum and explain what it is, where it was and why it isn't there anymore. Let's honour and not forget the past.
Love the monumnet discussion. I think as one of the best ways to help with monuments is to add contects, especially if the monument has actual artistic or cultural value. As a former soviet state we had a huge problem with removing to soviet statues in the beginning of Ukraine war. We have a architectually really valuable landscape to rember soviet soldiers in our capital. Instead of tearing it down we added a great landscape memorial next to it to remember the victims of communism (tens of thousands of people) that is as impressive next to it. Made a place that used to celebrate communisim to a place to rember the horrific loss that war and ideologies can bring. Also helps to teach about propaganda and history. I always believe we should use history as teaching moment instead of trying to delete it.
There's a difference b/t founding fathers (who owned slaves) and treasonous civil war generals who are only known in history for fighting to keep slavery & cecede. Not to mention the fact that these statues were put up decades after the civil war during jim crow to intimidate black people and remind them of their place. It also has to do with the propagation of the Lost Cause myth which miseducates people about the history and causes for the war. It takes no effort to take them down and rename some schools. I hate the whole slippery slope argument as well, like no one is saying tear everything down. It's case by case and like Kirk said it's about what things represent. The idolization of the confederacy (thru monuments, etc) is uniquely indefensible and can be done away with. The people who fight to keep them up in an effort to "preserve history" are the same people who wanna ban books and education about racism, lgbt, holocaust/nazi germany, etc. So the hypocrisy shows where their intentions lie. It's about supporting those racist ideologies, not to maintain history
Oh boy, I don't think Dr. Kirk is ready to learn about how deep esoteric 4chan crypto fascism goes... On the other hand, I can tell Humberto is just as terminally online as me. 😆
About renaming buildings and monuments, I'm also on the fence. We can't erase history; I think we should reframe it and contextualize it. I think in some cases, instead of honouring these long dead people from very unethical times in history, we could use them to teach people today about the harm they caused and how this trickled down throughout history. It's also important to remember that every time in history had very immoral and unethical practices which were accepted by the majority, and today is no exception unfortunately.
I don’t think the tiki torches were 100% a nod to the Boogaloo Boys/ Big Luau meme. I think much like the khakis and polo uniform the torches were a symbol of suburban “white” culture.
Check out the Genghis Khan statue outside of Ulaanbatar, Mongolia. It is absolutely MASSIVE! He is an extremely important figure for national identity.
Have you guys thought about doing an episode on Matthew Perna? He's become relevant recently because of a new documentary, "The Real Story of January 6th", and there's quite a bit of information about him online that's been shared by his aunt. It'd be interesting to follow a 'step by step' guide on how someone who was seemingly a harmless hippie 10-12 years ago turned into an alt-right posterboy, then an alt-right martyr. His situation has prompted some really livid discussions on accountability (whether legal or personal) from what I've seen. Also MAN I LIVED IN MEMPHIS RIGHT BEHIND THAT HIGH SCHOOL FOR A WHILE it was awful. The politics of that city is insane, white Germantown residents run the government of a majority black city and Germantown residents suck all the money out from the city like a fat parasite sucking the blood out of a starving dog. There is no hope for anything to get better there as long as that practice continues.
I had to skip the monument section because that was too much. Monuments do not teach history. We do not need confederate statues in the middle of the city to remind us that the confederacy existed and was celebrated.
Invite David Duke onto your podcast for the final chapter. I think that would be very interesting given how well spoken both of you are. And you might be surprised at how much you both agree on.
correct. though sprinkled with expert opinions about the psychological aspects of said history, and non expert opinions about said expert opinions about said non expert historical opinions. it's quite fun and highly boring!🎉
I don't think talking about e.g. statues that are up to this day, is an opinion on history rather than an opinion on the present day. But you're right in that they're not history experts. They've learned as much as they could within the last couple months, and are speculating on the psychology behind it all (in which Dr. Honda _is_ an expert on).
In regards to the victim complex of conservatives, this famous quote explains an element of it: "When someone is accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.”
It also falls in line with the historic self victimization of Christians. Oppression of Christian’s in the Roman Empire was very localized to individual communities and not concerted in anyway. To most people Christian’s were just a weirdo Jewish sect.
12:00 remember these confederate statues were put up much later by people trying to intimidate poc
Yes, my understanding is that most of the statues were put up in Jim Crow era as a response to the civil rights movement. They were intentionally made as a way to make a racist statement.
@@Schu0086that's my understanding as well. One difference I think is striking as well when compared to statues and monuments across history is this: these statues are of the losers, not the conquerors. They are also of the treasons, not the patriots.
I was reading comments looking for this. Yes it was made by women of the south during jom crow. I belive vox has a video about this
I loved the debate between you two on “monuments”. Not only was it thought provoking but you two also demonstrated how to disagree on a contentious issue in a respectful way. Good stuff!
What’s funny about the happy holidays thing is that ironically a lot of the most famous Christmas songs like “white Christmas” and “chestnuts roosting on an open fire” and “let it snow” were written by Jewish song writers.
I always look forward to Berto's intros!
Same. This one was exceptionally laughable! 😂
10:30 in regards to confederate statues, i think the difference between all historical relics and these statues is that a statue is a celebration of a specific person. It’s a dedication. If we go by “oh this was built on blood, then the whole US would need to be destroyed. And i think it’s a moo point to say because if that’s the case then we do nothing about anything, ever. Because the extreme ends of the spectrum don’t make sense. These Statues don’t hold significance when they’re actively celebrating these people that actively and outwardly supported and contributed too things like slavery and systemic issues. We have to start with the obvious. You don’t even need to destroy them, like another commenter said, stick them in a museum and add context to them. We just don’t need them to be erected as if it’s a celebration of them
16:38 the difference between founding fathers / other slaveowners, and all the civil war generals is that they would die for the right to own other humans, and killed a lot of Americans who didn’t support owning humans, and the humans to be owned are still suffering from the generational trauma and systematic oppression to this day. So making a monument to their oppressor isn’t historical, because they can be in a museum without massive monument and still be remembered historically, it’s to oppress
"Happy holidays" comes from "happy holy days"- in that way, it does quite well at covering the whole scope of traditional celebrations people all over the world have around winter time.
Mount Rushmore can go in my opinion
I don’t believe in destroying records of history. Just like we shouldn’t burn books. We need to preserve them, but acknowledge the historical context. We need to know about the brutality, rape, land stealing, and why the statues were created. Why did people hold slave owners in such high regard, enough to craft sculptures into a Stone Mountain GA? Who were the artisans who created it, how was it funded?
Where are their ancestors now?
Keep up all these statues, in a museum. “Racism in America History Month” will become very interesting.
This is such an interesting conversation. We have a statue in Vienna of an antisemite that's regularly being sprayed and marked for that reason. And while I don't want to be the person making the decisions, I think I actually prefer that over taking it down, because it is part of history and I would be afraid of taking down the statues and forgetting where we came from, even if that's a shameful history. If we're going to take it down, please put it in a museum and explain what it is, where it was and why it isn't there anymore. Let's honour and not forget the past.
Love the monumnet discussion. I think as one of the best ways to help with monuments is to add contects, especially if the monument has actual artistic or cultural value.
As a former soviet state we had a huge problem with removing to soviet statues in the beginning of Ukraine war. We have a architectually really valuable landscape to rember soviet soldiers in our capital. Instead of tearing it down we added a great landscape memorial next to it to remember the victims of communism (tens of thousands of people) that is as impressive next to it. Made a place that used to celebrate communisim to a place to rember the horrific loss that war and ideologies can bring. Also helps to teach about propaganda and history. I always believe we should use history as teaching moment instead of trying to delete it.
Agreed!
There's a difference b/t founding fathers (who owned slaves) and treasonous civil war generals who are only known in history for fighting to keep slavery & cecede. Not to mention the fact that these statues were put up decades after the civil war during jim crow to intimidate black people and remind them of their place. It also has to do with the propagation of the Lost Cause myth which miseducates people about the history and causes for the war. It takes no effort to take them down and rename some schools. I hate the whole slippery slope argument as well, like no one is saying tear everything down. It's case by case and like Kirk said it's about what things represent. The idolization of the confederacy (thru monuments, etc) is uniquely indefensible and can be done away with. The people who fight to keep them up in an effort to "preserve history" are the same people who wanna ban books and education about racism, lgbt, holocaust/nazi germany, etc. So the hypocrisy shows where their intentions lie. It's about supporting those racist ideologies, not to maintain history
Agreed
Oh boy, I don't think Dr. Kirk is ready to learn about how deep esoteric 4chan crypto fascism goes... On the other hand, I can tell Humberto is just as terminally online as me. 😆
Can you review curious case of Natalia grace? The fathers behavior is so scary but fascinating. I’d love to hear your take on him!
About renaming buildings and monuments, I'm also on the fence. We can't erase history; I think we should reframe it and contextualize it. I think in some cases, instead of honouring these long dead people from very unethical times in history, we could use them to teach people today about the harm they caused and how this trickled down throughout history. It's also important to remember that every time in history had very immoral and unethical practices which were accepted by the majority, and today is no exception unfortunately.
I don’t think the tiki torches were 100% a nod to the Boogaloo Boys/ Big Luau meme. I think much like the khakis and polo uniform the torches were a symbol of suburban “white” culture.
Check out the Genghis Khan statue outside of Ulaanbatar, Mongolia. It is absolutely MASSIVE! He is an extremely important figure for national identity.
10:44 Believe it or not, in Mongolia they celebrate 'Genghis Khan day' every year
Have you guys thought about doing an episode on Matthew Perna?
He's become relevant recently because of a new documentary, "The Real Story of January 6th", and there's quite a bit of information about him online that's been shared by his aunt. It'd be interesting to follow a 'step by step' guide on how someone who was seemingly a harmless hippie 10-12 years ago turned into an alt-right posterboy, then an alt-right martyr. His situation has prompted some really livid discussions on accountability (whether legal or personal) from what I've seen.
Also MAN I LIVED IN MEMPHIS RIGHT BEHIND THAT HIGH SCHOOL FOR A WHILE
it was awful. The politics of that city is insane, white Germantown residents run the government of a majority black city and Germantown residents suck all the money out from the city like a fat parasite sucking the blood out of a starving dog. There is no hope for anything to get better there as long as that practice continues.
I had to skip the monument section because that was too much. Monuments do not teach history. We do not need confederate statues in the middle of the city to remind us that the confederacy existed and was celebrated.
Invite David Duke onto your podcast for the final chapter. I think that would be very interesting given how well spoken both of you are. And you might be surprised at how much you both agree on.
All good things come in threes
🥺😢👍🏽
not enjoying the devils advocacy of the co-host
First!
Nietzsche = "knee-chi(li)", don't pronounce the "-li".
Boring. This sounds like non expert opinions about history.
correct. though sprinkled with expert opinions about the psychological aspects of said history, and non expert opinions about said expert opinions about said non expert historical opinions.
it's quite fun and highly boring!🎉
Then leave or don’t watch 😂
I don't think talking about e.g. statues that are up to this day, is an opinion on history rather than an opinion on the present day. But you're right in that they're not history experts. They've learned as much as they could within the last couple months, and are speculating on the psychology behind it all (in which Dr. Honda _is_ an expert on).
1:03:37 This just makes me wish that I could go to a 90s baby Kirk/Humberto show! 🥲🎸
First!