The truth about Joseph Smith, treasure-digging, witchcraft, magic, and the occult. Ep. 193
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- Опубликовано: 24 авг 2024
- Was Joseph Smith a treasure-digger? And if so, what does that mean? Does that mean he practiced “witchcraft”? Or was he a necromancer? Or does this qualify as being involved in the occult? In this episode, David explores some new research that sheds some much-needed light on these “sinister” practices from the past. Spoiler alert: It’s not quite as sinister as some would have you believe.
Video transcript: saintsunscript...
- “Redemption: The Treasure Quest and the Wandering Soul,” by Manuel Padro in the John Whitmer Historical Association Journal (Fall/Winter 2020, Vol. 40, No. 2): bit.ly/3T3uLTx
- “Cunning and Disorderly: Early Nineteenth-Century Witch Trials of Joseph Smith,” by Manuel Padro in Dialogue Journal (Winter 2021, Vol. 54, No. 4): bit.ly/3Mjz8Ie
- “Cunning Distortions: Folk Christianity and Witchcraft Allegations in Early Mormon History,” by Manuel Padro in Journal of Mormon History, Vol. 49, No. 1, 2023: bit.ly/3EsEzBD
- “Seer stone,” via The Joseph Smith Papers: bit.ly/3SPcsBx
- “Treasure Seeking,” via the Church’s website: bit.ly/3RvtYtE
- “Joseph Smith and Money Digging,” a short read by Richard Bushman (BYU Studies): bit.ly/3RK0iZL
- “That Old Black Magic,” by William J. Hamblin (BYU Studies): bit.ly/3VbyPTT
- “Treasures, Witches, and Ancient Inhabitants (D&C 111),” by Craig Ostler (BYU Studies): bit.ly/3Eo0Ql9
- “Martin Harris’ 1859 Interview with Joel Tiffany on Early Events in Mormonism,” via Doctrine and Covenants Central: bit.ly/3RLC1lZ
- “Joseph Smith's money digging activities and how it relates to his character,” via FAIR: bit.ly/3CjmEM4
- Appendix 1: Agreement of Josiah Stowell and Others, 1 November 1825,” via The Joseph Smith Papers: bit.ly/3ypImNn
- “Joseph Smith’s family and ‘magic parchments,’” via FAIR: bit.ly/3VcrCD2
Notes:
- "Some symbols on Hyrum Smith’s parchment match symbols from Reginald Scot’s 1584 book, 'The Discoverie of Witchcraft.' Thus, some claim that the Smiths clearly understood and recognized that they were engaged in 'witchcraft' (after all, it’s in the title of the book, right?). Rest assured that this is not a safe assumption to make, for reasons that I am not currently at liberty to discuss here. For more info on this question, you'll want to keep tabs on Manuel Padro's upcoming publications."
- We really don’t even know just how deeply Joseph was involved in this stuff. Joseph’s biographer, Richard Bushman, wrote,
“At present, a question remains about how involved Joseph Smith was in folk magic. Was he enthusiastically pursuing treasure seeking as a business in the 1820s, or was he a somewhat reluctant participant, egged on by his father? Was his worldview fundamentally shaped by folk traditions? I think there is substantial evidence of his reluctance, and, in my opinion, the evidence for extensive involvement is tenuous. But this is a matter of degree. No one denies that magic was there, especially in the mid-1820s." Source: bit.ly/3RK0iZL
You’ll notice that even here, Bushman chooses such terms as “folk magic” to describe Joseph’s practices. I wonder if he might have chosen different words (like “folk-Christianity”) had he been aware of this more recent research coming from Manuel Padro. The evidence seems to suggest that practitioners didn’t view their practices as magical, but miraculous/folk-religious.
- Joseph seemed to be pretty open about his money-digging past. In one interview he was asked, “Was not Jo Smith a money digger[?]” to which he replied, “Yes, but it was never a very profitable job to him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it.” Source: bit.ly/3CMiSfo
- I also liked this quote from Padro’s article (pg. 77): “When compared to Pennsylvania Dutch accounts, it is obvious that these New Englander examples demonstrate a misrepresentation of the actual practice of treasure hunting by labeling it as both witchcraft and fraud. This begs an important question: If some of the best literary minds of New England cannot accurately describe the treasure quest of Teutonic-Americans, are the descriptions of the treasure quest recorded by average New England Americans trustworthy either? The answer is no. These sources were not ethnographers describing what they had seen, observed or participated in, but rather bigots describing what they imagined other people did, utilizing their own cultural views of witchcraft and fraud as the building materials for an imaginary event that they projected onto a group they saw as foreign.”
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I worked with an evangelical paster who had problems with this mormon topic but at the same time he would act as a "water witch " for his congregation by finding water underground by walking over the land with metal coat hangers in each hand until they would move unaided. He would not see how it was the same activities.
@@joeoleary9010 Dowsing is still being practiced and a good dowser is a highly paid, sought-after professional. They are commonly employed prior to any drilling or excavation work (by professional contractors and/or owners) while in search of water/oil and mineral deposits.
If you were planning (for example) exploratory drilling on your 10 acre. rural property, in search of well-water (at a $1.000 dollars per/hr,) Dowsing is often money well-spent. And that's just a small project.
Everyone must be paid whether you find any water or not.
I listened to a talk by the son of a construction contractor. His father would always witch for water before digging. He said they never cut a water main but his father's contractor buddies, who made fun of him, did cut water mains. It appears witching for water actually works.
Interestingly, dowsing is still used today by farmers and water companies. It's used less since about 2017 but there is actually limited scientific support for it and a long history of belief. To be clear, there is also scientific research against it. I think it sounds ridiculous personally but who knows.
That sounds like witchcraft.
@@joeoleary9010 @William Boyd's comment was an ad hominem in the non fallacious sense, showing how the detractor's (the pastors) own views were incoherent when taken together.
@Joe Oleary your comment is a strawman, maybe is the best word. It mis-characterizes the comment as an apology for Joseph Smith Junior.
@William Boyd's comment is relevant rhetoric given the fact that this video treats the narrative of detractors and interpretation of evidence.
Joseph Smith had repeated attempts throughout his life to acquire money and treasure, whether to help his parents, to provide for his own family, to publish his books, to build a temple, to pay the debts of the Church. The angel told him from the beginning not to focus on money, and he never really acquired any. Still, he always had sufficient for his needs, and he was able to publish the scriptures and build the temple, etc. And the Church has since become phenomenally wealthy. It seems that Smith, like many of us, struggled to accept the lesson that God would take care of him and the Church financially if he would just focus on the work assigned to him.
No, he conned people out of their money and wanted sex and power along with it. Case closed.
@@Noxlion28 great con - get their money and spend it on welfare for other saints and books that he gives away or sells for cost. Get so much power you are constantly getting arrested and spending your days in jail. Get killed.
If he was seeking wealth, power and women, he would probably have acquired some wealth power and women. Instead, he had poverty, imprisonment and largely legalistic arrangements with very old or very young women. Hugh Hefner would say he was doing it wrong.
@@Noxlion28 😂
Thank you for your OPINION...
There's a whole heap of evidence against that opinion. Not the least of which would be 17 million honest seekers of Jesus Christ coming to know for themselves, both spiritually and logically, that Joseph Smith was truly a Latter-Day prophet of God.
I find curious the notion that people can be so skeptical about Joseph’s fantastical claims of harnessing folk magic, such as the effectiveness of peep stones and the existence of spirits guarding buried treasure-and some of these same people can accept Joseph’s miraculous claims about the effectiveness of seer stones and the existence of angels guarding buried scriptures.
If someone rejected both 19th century folk magic and also Joseph Smith’s claims of divine interactions/translations, what would be a key reason or piece of evidence to believe one peculiar claim over the other?
Joseph Smith was never a full-time treasure-digger. Please check out the Joseph Smith Foundation and the research they've done. The furthest extent of Joseph engaging in any such activity was in the case of when he worked for Josiah Stowell in 1825. Joseph dismissed this nonsense in his 1838 history when he talked about his time working for Josiah Stowell and when finishing this recounting he said, "Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger." He never admits to being a full-time treasure-digger.
So you're basing your view on comments made by Joseph Smith more than a decade AFTER the activities in question...at a time when Joseph Smith was anxious, as a self-proclaimed prophet and president of a church, to distance himself from the disreputable activities that he was widely known to have been involved in and admitted to having been involved in? Of course he was trying to downplay it. The fact that he couldn't deny it altogether is quite telling. Too many people, including his wife, father-in-law, and members of his church knew too much about it for him to deny it. And why do you keep repeating the phrase "full-time treasure digger." Seems like a bit of a red herring. Nobody's making an issue out of whether it was his "full-time" employment for years or whether he only dabbled in it when people were willing to pay. It's not like it was a corporate job. The issue was whether he did it enough for him to have a reputation as a person available for hire to help people "find" lost and buried treasure, using a peepstone.
Also, it should be noted that the Josiah Stowell incident is the one that got JS into the legal controversy that ultimately resulted in the Bainbridge court judgment against him. Josiah Stowell's sons were increasingly angered at how their gullible dad was manipulated into continuing to waste time and money on a bogus treasure hunt, and JS's pretenses regarding a supernatural ability to find said treasure were at the center of things. JS finally bailed out when he realized that the other Stowell's were reaching the boiling point and beginning to focus their anger on him.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Those claims of being involved in magic and occultism are based on a questionable source, Mormonism Unvailed 1834. The origin story of Mormonism Unvailed is very questionable. The Josiah Stowell case produced no guilty verdict in any court document that we have. Albert Neely was the Justice involved and he produced no record convicting Joseph of disorderly conduct, and wherever we find testimony of Josiah Stowell it is favorable to Joseph Smith. Joseph never confirmed being involved in occultism and denied it. Lucy Mack Smith also denied her family being involved in such activities. Those sources that come from those people are often not contemporary, so Joseph had no chance to defend himself in many cases; furthermore, those come far after the statement from Joseph I've cited. And Isaac Hale was not favorable to Joseph as he wanted his daughter Emma to marry a wealthier man. You've also quoted the notorious Fawn Brodie, it seems.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N4/20/2023 replies to C. Woody: "So you're basing your view on comments made by Joseph Smith more than a decade AFTER the activities in question...at a time when Joseph Smith was anxious, as a self-proclaimed prophet and president of a church, to distance himself from the disreputable activities that he was widely known to have been involved in and admitted to having been involved in? Of course he was trying to downplay it. The fact that he couldn't deny it altogether is quite telling. Too many people, including his wife, father-in-law, and members of his church knew too much about it for him to deny it. And why do you keep repeating the phrase "full-time treasure digger." Seems like a bit of a red herring. Nobody's making an issue out of whether it was his "full-time" employment for years or whether he only dabbled in it when people were willing to pay. It's not like it was a corporate job. The issue was whether he did it enough for him to have a reputation as a person available for hire to help people "find" lost and buried treasure, using a peepstone.
"Also, it should be noted that the Josiah Stowell incident is the one that got JS into the legal controversy that ultimately resulted in the Bainbridge court judgment against him. Josiah Stowell's sons were increasingly angered at how their gullible dad was manipulated into continuing to waste time and money on a bogus treasure hunt, and JS's pretenses regarding a supernatural ability to find said treasure were at the center of things. JS finally bailed out when he realized that the other Stowell's were reaching the boiling point and beginning to focus their anger on him."[sic]
Please forgive me for barging in on your conversation between you, T.P., and C. Woody.
There is no controversy here, and no crime committed. There was no trial, only a hearing. There was no court judgment against Joseph Smith. The only anxiety Joseph Smith felt was to get the message of Christ’s salvation to the whole world. Josiah Stowell said more about Joseph’s abilities than Joseph did. It is easy to find documented evidence of this. To start, see www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_What_is_Joseph_Smith%27s_1826_South_Bainbridge_%22trial%22_for_%22glasslooking%22%3F
I'm curious. What would critics’ reaction be to me disproving every point they make? Would they apologize and say, “Oh, you're right, we were misled?” Or would they change the topic and find another way to accuse Joseph Smith of some misdeed, ignoring this false accusation after the truth sweeps it away? Will they check the next accusation against documented historical facts or will they just hope to dupe the next fool who will believe any salacious lie, themselves becoming the thing they accused another of being?
The truth is that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. Anyone who reads the Book of Mormon realizes that the book teaches the gospel of Jesus Christ and answers many questions. But no critic of Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon ever opens the Book of Mormon or refers to it. No criticism of the Book of Mormon ever touches on the gospel of Jesus Christ, because it is the truth and they cannot fight it. So who teaches the pure gospel of Jesus Christ, a charlatan or a prophet of God?
I am sorry to take an adversarial approach here. You are a thinking person and care enough to write here. I welcome any questions or thoughts you may have. May God be with you, T.P.
Oh yeah, liars and con men never defend themselves to save their asses. Never happens. 😂
Thank you for your research!
Do we actually have evidence Joseph owned or used the Parchments? Last time I looked into it I could only find that his much more modern descendants happened to own them.
Those symbols on that parchment are from ' High Ritual' magic, a combination of 12th-16th century magic and alchemy, with Astrology and Religion thrown in. I Studied those practices, and participated in them for the better part of two decades before rejecting them.
They are not simple Christian folk beliefs.
So have you never seen symbols being used as representing diverse ideas? Why wouldn't Satan inspire his followers to use symbols also used by followers of God? Isn't he the great deceiver? Just because you have seen certain symbols used for occultic purposes, does not mean they were not also used by Christians. The example he shows in this video actually proves this point. The symbols you used in astrology, magic and alchemy were actually being used to glorify the Christian God by people in the 19th century.
The mormon church to this day practices necromancy and witchcraft. They have practiced necromancy on ME I've experienced it personally, that's what baptism for the dead is. Some of their baptismal fonts have bull statues around them which is a depiction of BAAL . The Mormons worship a pantheon of god's, it's a satanic religion through and through. Their doctrine is straight up from Satan. I encourage anyone deceived by this organization to seek forgiveness from your witchcraft
I think there is a lot we don't understand and considering he clearly rejected them eventually too that trying to pin down exactly how off the mark it was is irrelevant. They miss the mark.
@@rachelrasmussen1101 Joseph Smith never rejected it.
For the longest time it was part of LDS tradition. It’s only rejected by various LDS members when questioned.
So, the notion that Joseph Smith left cunning behind isn’t factual.
@JohnDrewDesigner so he didn't put it anywhere in the D&C but YOU know how he truly felt about it? Sure you do...
I have no qualms if he wrestled with it, trying to understand it. As the OP mentioned, he wrestled and studied it 2 decades before rejecting it. I respect the search for truth. But if he felt he could conclude it was true, it would be among the things he declared true. It is not. It is among the things he speculated might be true that he didn't understand yet. I'm not going to judge him on that.
Fascinating Dave!
Hmm...now what about those golden plates? Treasure hunter -> discovers golden plates -> pretends to write a book -> decides to get believers to support him once sales of book do not produce any gain. Or.....angel of God chooses JS to translate now missing golden plates to form a new church. To each their own. One of these is options is a bit more believable to me.
I am amazed at the attempt to legitimise Smiths treasure digging.
I am 76 years old. Baptized at age 8. Never was i told of seer stones, treasure digging. Never was i told that a stone in a hat was used to "TRANSLATE" the "GOLD PLATES".
Grant Palmer, the church historian, was excommunicated for telling of the plates.
His live was distroyed.
Now with the "NEW NARRATIVE " we are being fed a different line of "miracles ".
What would we do without true believers?
I wish you had spent more time on how these practices led to his supposed discovery and translation of the plates as well as the clear parallels to these practices and the stories in the book of Mormon and other translations of Joseph Smith. I think these are the more important aspects of this discussion
...And the connection between the role of seers in the Old Testament. But I think SU has another video about that.
@@talkofchrist true very good point as well! I'll have to watch it
Come on guys, of all the pictures of translation, why not use the one Joseph and Oliver spoke of most and makes more sense and actually looks like translation. This subject itself is suspect and has lots of holes in it. For example: Lucy Mack Smith stated strongly they weren’t treasure diggers or involved in any folk magic.
Which ever the case, Heavenly Father used his talents to deliver us the Book of Mormon.
Mormon god isn’t real and neither is the BoM. It’s laughable that these apologist channels try to appear objective and honest about hard topics but they twist words and completely ignore the obvious truth. Good ol’ Occam’s Razor.
You're in a cult, Bro. Just own it.
Generally a very perceptive and insightful video. However, there is a factual error toward the end when you comment that Joseph used his treasure-digging seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon. Both Joseph and Oliver stated repeatedly that the Book of Mormon was translated using the Jaredite/Nephite interpreters (also called the Urim & Thummim) which came with the plates and were provided by God for for the translation (JS-H 1:35). For our book 'By Means of the Urim & Thummim' we did a deep dive into the sources which claim that Joseph used his treasure-hunting stone for the translation, and found them all to be late (often posthumous), secondhand and overall unreliable, especially compared to Joseph and Oliver's firsthand eyewitness testimony that Joseph used the ancient interpreters which came with the plates.
No this is not correct you can see a video of Nielson demonstrating this very method of translating with the seer stone. The urim, and thummim are also retro active terms to distance Joseph from a treasure digger with folk magic to make it seem more biblical
Nice! I'm here early this time. Thanks for this church history lesson. ❤
I have a more simple explanation, if I am hungry and need work and someone pays me to dig holes on their property and it isn’t illegal or immoral, I am going to do it. By their fruits ye shall know them.
Was treasure digging legal or illegal? Was it a con or not?
Legal. Not.
Ilegal in Uk where it was practiced before coming to the states
I guess if you can believe that someone could find buried treasure by looking at a stone in a hat then you could also believe that Ancient Israelites travelled almost 6K miles to the new world and established a flourishing population across N, S and C America. DNA evidence to support those claims....non-existent. All religions require faith and the suspension of disbelief, but this one is on a whole 'nother level. LDS members are good people, though. So respect, but, I choose to believe in factually based claims not fantasy world stuff.
I admire the faith of these early folk Christians.
Thank you so much David❤❤❤
You're welcome!
Love this! I didn’t even know the Christian Folk beliefs about treasure hunting.
Thank you brother.
The New Testament condemned such practices, Acts 19:19 "And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all, and they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver". Hard to believe God would chose someone engaged in such practices to start up his true church.
I'm not saying whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet, but I'd like to point out that the Lord only has sinners to work with, and that Paul/Saul himself was directly opposed to the gospel before he repented and became possibly that greatest defender of the faith.
so does the Book of Mormon, so.....
David’s Mustache DLC: Unlocked.
This is the way.
I'd love to know if any actual "treasure" of any description was ever found by any of the multitude of "treasure diggers" active during the life of Joseph Smith???
You say this but you conveniently left out the part where he used the seer stones to try to find such buried treasure. Also it is documented that in 1826 he was even arrested and fined $2.68 by a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, NY, for “glass looking.”
The mars dagger looks cool!
Based
JS only talked about this once and the most of the stuff comes from "Mormonism unveiled" How much do we trust this source.
JS said his digging is how the rumor started. So he's not saying he did a lot of it.
I'm not saying it didn't happen. Just saying
The furthest extent of any such activity is when Joseph worked for Josiah Stowell in trying to find a lost silver mine. He said that they worked, along with several others, for less than a month before Joseph persuaded Josiah to stop.
@@patrioticwoody Yep that seems to be the only record from him. I think people have trusted Mormonism unveiled too much.
@@clearstonewindows You're apparently unaware of the Bainbridge trial document (1826) that awarded a judgment against the "glass looker" Joseph Smith, the complaint in the case having been made by Josiah Stowell's disgusted family. You're apparently unaware of the fact that Joseph Smith only met Emma as a result of lodging at her home (the Hale home) in Harmony while working as the glass looker for Josiah Stowell, based on Joseph Smith's pretense to being able to find buried treasure with his magic rock. You're apparently unaware of the fact that Vermont (JS's birthplace) and upstate NY and environs in the 1820s and earlier were hotbeds for these kinds of treasure hunting rackets and scams, and that people pretending to be able to locate treasure by means of a rock in a hat was commonplace...and considered to be dishonest and fraudulent by respectable citizens. Joseph Smith was literally up to his neck in it (considering the fact that his head was in the hat).
@@patrioticwoody Most likely, the only reason that Joseph decided to bug out on the project was because he could see that the family of the extremely gullible Josiah were reaching the end of their patience and focusing their anger on Joseph Smith. Indeed, the complaint against JS that led to the Bainbridge court judgment against Joseph Smith "the glass looker" in 1826 was made by the disgruntled Stowell family.
Thank you for sharing this knowledge and your beliefs with us!
Thanks for watching and always sharing your thoughts and comments on our videos!
I think the presentism argument here is pretty weak. As it nearly always is when used in LDS apologetics. That ‘foreign country’ quote is clung to like a life preserver by apologists to keep from drowning in a sea of difficulty. Treasure digging in Joseph Smith’s time was a fringe, illegal activity. Whether it was informed by Christianity or not is not relevant. All sorts of abhorrent beliefs have their roots in mainstream religion. I’ll have to go back to see if the video mentions that the practice was illegal and that Joseph Smith got into legal trouble for engaging therein, but I don’t think that was covered. Again, this is just a postage stamp explication meant to soothe troubled consciences but barely even addresses the issues.
This video is a good example of redefining an argument and playing semantic games. Perhaps the least-effective was giving weight to how treasure diggers saw themselves. It would be like a newspaper article saying ‘The good citizens of Bedford, Massachusetts saw the men who perpetrated the armed robbery at Gloucester’s Bank as dangerous criminals, but the members of the little band saw themselves as modern-day Robin Hoods, stealing only what would be rightfully theirs if not for the evils of late-stage capitalism. The crippling injury to the bank clerk shot in their haste to escape was a necessary casualty on the road to achieving their great end.’ What deceptive fraudsters see themselves as couldn’t be less important.
The problem with Joseph as treasure digger is not that he was some dark necromancer in league with Baphomet. It’s that he was engaged in an illegal activity that is an important testament to his character and background. If you heard that your current dentist once sold teeth on the black market, the information would seem quite important.
my understanding is this was a thing that originated in europe or UK generations prior. it was made illegal there but not in the states and that’s why it was a practice brought to the states. or it cane with immigrants but was not illegal.
he was tried for fraud as Stoweks nice made the complaint. but because stop testified that he believed the whole thing was true, as the person swindled but also gullible, he didn’t press charges and js was off the hook.
he stopped because emma’s dad asked him to go make an honest living and js promised he would. a couple years later he’s using this sane method to translate a book wrapped in a cloth.
scam scam
Joseph Smith realized that treasure digging was indefensible and too similar to his story about the “golden plates”. So Joseph minimized his involvement in treasure digging in Joseph Smith History. Joseph himself was ashamed of his practice, why are modern LDS apologists so quick to defend it?
i was raised in
the church since birth in the early 80’s
why didn’t they tell us about this? why did they make videos they taught us in primary and youth and ysa of home translating like he was reading a book?
it’s a con.
JSF ain't gunna be to happy about this one
Who is JSF?
@@simon_carrick8198 I think he means the Joseph Smith Foundation
@@justiningham187 The Joseph Smith Foundation is a pro-LDS organization, right? Why would they be unhappy about a study’s findings being aligned with Smith not being a con-man or occult practitioner?
Keeping this video at 6 minutes is probably a good move...lol Don't want to give too much info.
Why does the church prohibit the same occult practices now if it was all on the level?
If Nelson & Oaks were doing it, would that strengthen or weaken your resolve to follow them?
I know that the view that Joseph was involved in folk magic is popular now, but I don’t know that I believe it. Joseph and his mother deny the families involvement in the stuff and most of the claims come from detractors of the time. I think it’s more likely he partnered with Stowell to find the mine simply because he was a young man needing work and stowell having heard of his revelation claims thought having him there would help him find the mine. I’m okay with being wrong on this, but I haven’t found the claims to be convincing.
Do you believe, at the time, souls could be saved if their money was found?
People were lost. Looking at the Daybell case today, people are gonna see that the same way. They came up with a whole church off a bed of truth but then warped it into portals and zombies, casting and redeeming the body by flushing out the evil spirit through binding and burning. Ya gotta admit to a lot of people, it's really fishy and seems sketchy though
People today are still treasure digging and those who criticize Joseph are those who would absolutely do the same thing. I mean why leave burried money? Does the dirt need the funds for its seed gambling😅🤣. I don't know a soul who wouldn't hunt for treasure and I wouldn't believe anyone who said they wouldn't
Nice
It’s creative superstition that occurred after Joseph claimed to have been visited by God, angels and been shown the golden plates.
On 4/19/2023, @Ninja Master commented, "It’s creative superstition that occurred after Joseph claimed to have been visited by God, angels and been shown the golden plates."
Ninja, Joseph Smith taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. Over thirty people had direct experiences with the gold plates; they held them, turned the pages, and saw the engraved markings. Three men saw an angel themselves. The angel showed them the plates and they heard the voice of God tell them that Joseph translated the plates by the gift and power of God. All three men had a falling out with Joseph and left The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, yet they NEVER denied their testimonies that Joseph was a prophet of Jesus Christ. A fourth person, a woman, had an angel show the gold plates to her as well.
You may call any event "superstition" as you wish, but you will be in direct contradiction with Joseph's contemporaries. They were there and saw it; you did not.
@@brucenorth5337 i think he was just referring to the treasure digging as the superstition…
this did not happen Joseph Smith was not a gold digger, what truly happened was that he wanted to find the true church, there were so many church then and now and is difficult to find out which is the true church of God. He prayed and was told to join none of them. Then due to his faith, he was led to the golden plates that had the sacred writings. The golden plates were made gold, so the writings would not be destroyed. Doesn't this video sound crazy to any of you? Did you ever truly think to ask God himself? and if the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints was true?
Even in the bible we are told. "Ask and ye shall receive?" That's how Joseph Smith found to the truth, he first studied the bible, then came the book of Mormon. He never stopped believing in the bible, the Book of Mormon is just another word of God, but in a different land. Literally, Lephi left Jerusalem because it was going to be destroyed, because the people were so wicked. And they hardened their hearts toward God. And even today, so many are hardening their hearts. That is why many natural disasters are happening because of the wickedness of the people. For not hearing him for turning to worldly things.
I highly recommend reading the gospel topics essays on the LDS website. Including the footnotes. The leaders of the church do claim that he was into treasure seeking like many others of his time.
I don't know why, but I really liked the picture with the devil kicking that guy in the rear end
I believe what Derek Prince said about Mormon theology....that there is clear error. But I know some spirit filled Mormons.
I'm confused as to why it makes Smith look bad?
There are alot of parallels to the gold plates story and magic folk lore of the day. Guardian spirits (angel) over treasure, that dissapeared if you dont follow the superstition rules to offend said spirit. Golden plates treasure found following guardian (Moroni) rules to obtain the plates (treasure). Had to visit once per year around the September equinox (believed to be superstitious significant day of the year). Treasure digging was based on a believing scam of their time, an exciting get rich quick scheme. Joseph obviously made a name for himself telling people he could see treasure with his seer stone of which where also popular in the early 1800s. The "seers" would get paid giving people the digging site location all to come up empty handed.
How can you not find this problematic??
especially given he translated plates using the same seer stone, with the plates always covered or not even in the room for translation all to follow the guardians spirit or Moroni's rules
@@jordanwebb5794 that's a pretty far-fetched comparison. you can make such comparisons about almost anything. folk magic seems to have been a thing at the time. So that's not a big deal.
I don't find it "problematic" because it doesn't affect me. But what's the problem with using a favorite rock he at one time tried to find treasure with? Assuming for the sake of argument it was true, would it matter? The assumption is the rock is special or even needed but nothing supports this.
I wonder how often people actually found treasure 🤔
Open a gold mine!
The ignorance of anti Mormons is thwarted by the truth, once again.
Hey David.
Hey Ryan.
I was always bothered that he didn’t find much. I guess that is reality though
Exactly. Did he find anything at all? (besides the golden plates that were taken back to heaven) It astounds me that anyone would believe Joseph’s claims after honestly researching the man.
@@harryhenderson2479 I can’t believe people don’t believe the Book of Mormon after reading it.
@@xelaevans why? It’s heavily derived from the Bible and common beliefs from Joseph’s day; Multiple changes throughout its publication history (including doctrinal); not a single shred of archeological evidence to support it; most of the “witnesses” are family and relatives of Joseph or close acquaintances…
Seems very dubious to me.
I believe Joseph was into folk magic. He was a treasure digger and killed a dog as a sacrifice to find the bury treasure. Carried a Jupiter talisman and used seer stones. Many stories have important details taken out about the men that ransacked Joseph’s house and when joseph out ran 3 men waiting for him at the hill cumorah with the plates…. They were all of his treasure digging buddies that wanted their share of the treasure. We should embrace the weirdness of the early church and talk about it more.
The story about sacrificing a dog does not have very strong evidence. The couple sources that exist conflict about many of the details, and were written many years after and published by groups that were very openly against the church.
The Standard of Truth Podcast actually had a recent episode on the subject. I would highly recommend.
Joseph himself said that the extent of being involved in treasure-digging was when he worked for Josiah Stowell in 1825 and he persuaded Josiah to stop after less than a month without success. Joseph never acknowledged the use of seer stones at all. Lucy Mack Smith denied her family engaged in treasure-digging, folk magic, or occultism. The Smiths were Christian workaholics.
@@jamesoneil1388 Blame Leonard Arrington for the rewritten history.
@@jamesoneil1388 It's the fault of Leonard Arrington. Look him up, he was secretly not an orthodox member that somehow became Church Historian.
Killed a dog? Now he's a John Wick Villain?
I see no reason why this shouldn't apply to him as well as from him: “One of the grand fundamental principles of Mormonism is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.” (Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 199) “We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 316) “Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails over priestcraft… Mormonism is truth, in other words the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints, is truth. … The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.” (Letter from Joseph Smith to Isaac Galland, Mar. 22, 1839, Liberty Jail, Liberty, Missouri, published in Times and Seasons, Feb. 1840, pp. 53-54; spelling and grammar modernized.)
This is hands down my favorite part about "mormonism"!