I have a few questions: 1. Is the build plate reusable? 2. What was the total production time for these including wire EDM? How did it compare to conventional machining? 3. What about its product finish and mechanical properties? Are they functionally similar in magnitude?
Yes the build plate can be re-surfaced and re-used. At the end of the video, I mention it took 26 minutes and 48 seconds per lever so total time is roughly 50 hours with the majority of that being unattended print time. Compared to machining there is no tooling, no programming, and very little setup of the actual printer. The finish can be tumbled, electropolished, etc.. but it's not bad. The mechanical properties are more than sufficient for this application. Thanks for watching!
@@trevorgoforth8963 Very much the set it and forget of producing parts. I think its great to have options and this is an excellent demonstration of another way to make more parts.
It is fascinating to watch 3D printing come into its own. There is no doubt going to be continual push pull between traditional manufacturing methods and more modern approaches. I imagine we have only really scratched the surface of what is possible.
I agree brother. As a manufacturer, I will never complain about having yet another viable method for producing parts. It's nice to have another tool in the toolbox!
I think we should by to ignore the "modern" vs "traditional" connotation of the methods. Just look at it as additive vs subtractive, both with their own strengths and weaknesses. Both are modern in the sense that they are typically powered by modern technology, one of them just happens to have been available for longer.
Joshua, one thing to keep in mind with material costs on this kind of system: there's very little waste. In a traditional machining operation you're cutting metal off the original piece, and you have to collect it all to ship to a recycling plant. On Trevor's machine, whatever metal doesn't become a part can be poured back into the bin and used for another part.
It would be really interesting for you to do a breakdown on the cost of doing this. It looked like the build plate is sacrificial etc I’m looking into adding that technology to my shop just need to understand all the costs
@@Phoen1x883 I suppose it depends on how much you face off of it I wouldn't think you'd have to face much of anything off the actual part (in theory you wouldn't have to face anything off the actual part, just enough to get rid of the titanium built up on it), looks like a hunk of aluminum to me so not that expensive
It's very possible that I'm wrong, but I think the build plate needs to be a similar material to the printed material. At the very least it has to be compatible with welding to the printed material.
@@2testtest2 yeah or at the very least compatible to braze (not sure if I'm spelling that right), but that doesn't really looks like a hunk of ti to me for some reason
Hydraulic brakes require very little pressure on a bike. One finger can lock them up. What happens when it falls over and smashes it? Would be interesting to know. I've seen some metal printed parts that are brittle. I'd be interested to know how they clean up the build plate afterwards too. Do the printed parts get heat treated? Metal printing can be quite machine and materials intensive, and even as far as all the post processing required. Wire EDM, ovens, blasting, finishing, breathing equipment for safety, etc. Heat is not cheap. Cost per part? Failure rates? I have 3 3D printers, they are not perfect, and failures happen, mostly due to support requirements/failure, build plate adhesion. Actual cost per part is probably very high. $12 an ounce just for the powder alone? ROI is going to be a long process for any investor in this tech.
@@jay89boy So then you have to have an EDM, heat treating and a lathe to make that all work? Getting even more expensive. I just clean my build plates, FDM and Resin. How many times can you face the build plate before you have to replace the build plate too? Titan can make his own build plates I'm sure. $1M for the machine, $500k for EDM, oven and a lathe too? Going to be a long process to earn all that investment back. I love the idea, but out of the reach for most shops investment wise.
Metal 3D printing is the peak of 3D printing. The only thing left needed is to use this method to print small parts for different applications, such as prosthetics. I've been watching someone design and make prosthetic fingers since he lost his fingers at the knuckles. His design allowed for different gestures, minus the bird. 3D plastic prints don't last a day. His old fashioned metal cutting and forming gave him the necessary parts to make his prosthetic fingers. He almost as it perfect. The proportions to his other hand are almost 1:1 ratio.
well, i could imagine, bringing your friend in contact with titans, will eventually lead to them sponsoring him some 3D printed titan fingers, and for us, some awesome practical footage ;)
3D plastic prints don't last a day? That's absolutely wrong. Plenty of very high strength materials out on the market, but it's true that they don't approach the strength of steel or titanium.
Not only time per part but no material waste compared to machining. Seems like the smaller the part and the more exotic the material the more efficient 3d printing becomes, among other factors of course.
Amazing what you can do with million dollar machines, these parts must've cost a fortune? MTB parts are often expensive, but this has to be next level.
Love the real life application of how Wire EDM and 3D printing can work together. The ONA EDM's are truly great machines and the technology is extremely productive and efficient. On a side note, I would not want to get into the ring with Titan.
Our wire EDM and 3D printer are such a good combination. There is very little setup involved on both and they both run completely unattended without issue. They compliment each other very well!
This is so exciting to see! I will be starting a new job as a metal additive manufacturing tech at the end of the month and can’t wait to start training to use all these machines
Honestly, I was expecting these parts to take three to five hours of work. I was amazed when you said they took less than half an hour.....Very cool job, man. You made me rethinking about the future of 3D printing I wish If you made an academy for additive machines with Mr trevor 🔥
@@kevinpetow4070 You’re overthinking it. I could easily say, but what about the mining of metals? And go on and on… I’m talking about the waste accumulated during part production only.
what is the cost breakdown per lever once factoring in machine cost amortization and powder costs? vs milling would be a great compariosn! under 30 min per part is a good procuction time for a complicated part!
3 printing machines and 3 EDM machines. One single person could make 300 levers every 2 days and only need to come in to work one of each of those two days. If each lever sells for $250 that's $75,000 gross worth of product created every 48 hours... with ONE skilled person not working crazy hard. It's a terrifying investment up front though. You'd have to be SURE your part would work with this manufacturing method and be doubly sure you have a solid market to sell it into.
But gross is not a measure of profit! That’s why I ask which is more cost effective? If material for milling is $40 and material for laser is $200…. If the laser machine is 4 million vs $600,000 for the CNC mill As for labour, any job with enough volume can have automation to reduce manual input. I’d LOVE to know what The numbers would break down to for ROI milling vs printing on this job. Either way it’s freaking cool! As for my bike I think I’ll stick to carbon fibre levers ;)
So how would you cost out these parts? Cost of powder, hourly cost to run the various machines. EDM consumables and labor. Plus post processing to finish the parts. Is the cost of the printing just material and labor or is there more to it? Charles
You need to make the distinction this is not just any 'metal'. Titanium must be 3D printed in a vacuum chamber or with a jet of neutralizing gas because it oxidizes easily and you have to block that reaction. It's why these titanium 3D printing vacuum chambers cost a million bucks, although they've come down a bit the last couple years.
Nobody says it's not possible, it's just impractical. Price per part sucks compared to other methods. How much are they selling that brake lever for? $200?
I loved this video, but can we get another example because mountain biking consumers are not right in the head and they are willing to pay 300 for pedals
@@zteaxon7787 It's still probably faster to print them, they might consume more power but you don't have to attend them and it doesn't need any post processing. And they look way better than cast.
That's not cost effective when you consider cost of equipment then it looks like you need a new build plate every time as a added expensive no way I would invest much in this.
Lot of porosity in the end of the handle. Is that how the first layer fuses and then it improves after that? Or is the porosity intentional it that's even possible?
The amazing thing here is why you need EDM! Surely there must be some form of ultra thin Al or Teflon or SOMETHING BETTER! What about that build plate? Machine or grind now? CRAZY
@@TITANSofCNC it’s not the method of part separation, it’s that it is needed at all. Must the build plate be a metal that “sticks” to your part metal (powder)?
Impressed at a viable volume commercial product for non-aerospace level part I’m waiting for powder prices to dip a bit more before looking at machines seriously
I saw that you had printed in a marked line where the final ops will take the levers to shape. Would it be possible to print a kind of separation line there, a thinner layer of print, that the levers could be broken off at to remove the need for EDM to remove them from the print plate? Thus saving an op and allowing the final finishes on the levers to be minimised both in time and cost.
you guys didnt answer the obvious manufacturing questions: what post processing is required to turn those into finished products? Can that build plate be resurfaced? How many times?
Please do a comparison between complete cycle time of the 3d printed part vs. a mill turn part. OR how many can be done in a day, raw material costs, etc.
why not position the levers at an angle so that the wire does not get all the increased resistance at once, but gradual. awesome technology, love your work
![NOSFERATU - Official Trailer [HD] - Only In Theaters December 25](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nulvWqYUM8k/mqdefault.jpg)
I would like to see a video on post processing the levers and how you get the plate completely clean and flat again.
i think you dont want to in this case maybe, looks grippy to me
Presume they just face it with fly cutter.
yeah I am disappointed they didnt include that.
In another video they mentioned a surface grinder.
I have a few questions: 1. Is the build plate reusable? 2. What was the total production time for these including wire EDM? How did it compare to conventional machining? 3. What about its product finish and mechanical properties? Are they functionally similar in magnitude?
They aren't going to reply because this channel is clickbait advertisement they get paid for.
Yes the build plate can be re-surfaced and re-used. At the end of the video, I mention it took 26 minutes and 48 seconds per lever so total time is roughly 50 hours with the majority of that being unattended print time. Compared to machining there is no tooling, no programming, and very little setup of the actual printer. The finish can be tumbled, electropolished, etc.. but it's not bad. The mechanical properties are more than sufficient for this application. Thanks for watching!
@Trevor Goforth can I have a pair of sram levers please
@@trevorgoforth8963 Very much the set it and forget of producing parts. I think its great to have options and this is an excellent demonstration of another way to make more parts.
@@ellisontechnologies 100% agree! The more tools we have to choose from when trying gain a competitive advantage, the better off we are!
My shop will never see something this advanced. So cool!
Very good example! What about the support removal and the heat treatment? Do you perform any machining on functional surfaces? Keep going!
It is fascinating to watch 3D printing come into its own. There is no doubt going to be continual push pull between traditional manufacturing methods and more modern approaches. I imagine we have only really scratched the surface of what is possible.
I agree brother. As a manufacturer, I will never complain about having yet another viable method for producing parts. It's nice to have another tool in the toolbox!
It is going to make the impossible reality in our lifetime
I think we should by to ignore the "modern" vs "traditional" connotation of the methods. Just look at it as additive vs subtractive, both with their own strengths and weaknesses. Both are modern in the sense that they are typically powered by modern technology, one of them just happens to have been available for longer.
Good video but it would be really nice if you could include the cost of materials and time vs a machined version of the part
Thanks for watching, I will keep that in mind for next time!
Joshua, one thing to keep in mind with material costs on this kind of system: there's very little waste. In a traditional machining operation you're cutting metal off the original piece, and you have to collect it all to ship to a recycling plant. On Trevor's machine, whatever metal doesn't become a part can be poured back into the bin and used for another part.
We have been doing production like this for 10 years on our metal 3D printers. We make close to 250k parts per year.
That's awesome!
It would be really interesting for you to do a breakdown on the cost of doing this. It looked like the build plate is sacrificial etc I’m looking into adding that technology to my shop just need to understand all the costs
I'm fairly sure they just face off the build plate and reuse it
@@killorkubed How many facing operations can the plate take before it needs to be replaced? Are they cheap parts?
@@Phoen1x883 I suppose it depends on how much you face off of it I wouldn't think you'd have to face much of anything off the actual part (in theory you wouldn't have to face anything off the actual part, just enough to get rid of the titanium built up on it), looks like a hunk of aluminum to me so not that expensive
It's very possible that I'm wrong, but I think the build plate needs to be a similar material to the printed material. At the very least it has to be compatible with welding to the printed material.
@@2testtest2 yeah or at the very least compatible to braze (not sure if I'm spelling that right), but that doesn't really looks like a hunk of ti to me for some reason
That is sick. Awesome tech and vision putting that together.
We just bought a 3d system Dmp flex 350 at work, can’t wait to get trained up and start working on Metal AM.
Are there any metrics for how strong that part is? It's a relatively short lever which should see quite bit of (repeated) stress.
Hydraulic brakes require very little pressure on a bike. One finger can lock them up. What happens when it falls over and smashes it? Would be interesting to know. I've seen some metal printed parts that are brittle. I'd be interested to know how they clean up the build plate afterwards too. Do the printed parts get heat treated? Metal printing can be quite machine and materials intensive, and even as far as all the post processing required. Wire EDM, ovens, blasting, finishing, breathing equipment for safety, etc. Heat is not cheap. Cost per part? Failure rates? I have 3 3D printers, they are not perfect, and failures happen, mostly due to support requirements/failure, build plate adhesion. Actual cost per part is probably very high. $12 an ounce just for the powder alone? ROI is going to be a long process for any investor in this tech.
@@helicopterdriver you can just run a facing operation on the plate
@@jay89boy So then you have to have an EDM, heat treating and a lathe to make that all work? Getting even more expensive. I just clean my build plates, FDM and Resin. How many times can you face the build plate before you have to replace the build plate too? Titan can make his own build plates I'm sure. $1M for the machine, $500k for EDM, oven and a lathe too? Going to be a long process to earn all that investment back. I love the idea, but out of the reach for most shops investment wise.
literally witnessing history
Sure! As long as you're printing something that could easily be made out of polymer or cast aluminum.
Next level 😮
You should also show the finishing of the parts like taking away the support structure at the bottom or?
Boom! Great video Trevor!😃
Thanks Mark, great job to you as well sir!
Nice Job! 👍
How do you remove the supports from the parts after removing them from the build plate?
Iirc, they don't need supports. The powder itself acts as a support whenever needed and is just brushed off and vacuumed away to be reused.
Metal 3D printing is the peak of 3D printing. The only thing left needed is to use this method to print small parts for different applications, such as prosthetics. I've been watching someone design and make prosthetic fingers since he lost his fingers at the knuckles. His design allowed for different gestures, minus the bird. 3D plastic prints don't last a day. His old fashioned metal cutting and forming gave him the necessary parts to make his prosthetic fingers. He almost as it perfect. The proportions to his other hand are almost 1:1 ratio.
well, i could imagine, bringing your friend in contact with titans, will eventually lead to them sponsoring him some 3D printed titan fingers, and for us, some awesome practical footage ;)
Peak for biomedicial? Think ceramics and bone grafting, custom made to whatever is missing.
3D plastic prints don't last a day? That's absolutely wrong. Plenty of very high strength materials out on the market, but it's true that they don't approach the strength of steel or titanium.
Your guys production quality is absolutely outstanding.
Thank you!
@@trevorgoforth8963 I second this :)
@@mattSOLIDWORKS Thanks Matthew! Our video crew are certainly very talented and us machinists are impressed by them daily!
Not only time per part but no material waste compared to machining. Seems like the smaller the part and the more exotic the material the more efficient 3d printing becomes, among other factors of course.
Yep, very little material waste on this print. I agree small parts made out of difficult to work with materials are great for production 3D printing.
how expensive titanium power is compare to regular titanium stock?
How did you remove the support material?
Amazing what you can do with million dollar machines, these parts must've cost a fortune? MTB parts are often expensive, but this has to be next level.
Love the real life application of how Wire EDM and 3D printing can work together. The ONA EDM's are truly great machines and the technology is extremely productive and efficient. On a side note, I would not want to get into the ring with Titan.
Our wire EDM and 3D printer are such a good combination. There is very little setup involved on both and they both run completely unattended without issue. They compliment each other very well!
They could even be individually serial numbered during print and that would effectively be "free"...
@BronzeKaiser Add a flat in CAD, make individual CAD files with new serials, print. I'm sure there is a coding way to automate this process.
Super kool!!
Thanks man!
I’m curious after removing the parts from the print plate with the EDM how do you remove the remaining material on the surface of the plate?
Came here to ask the same thing! I'm guessing surface grinding.
@@Maverickthewolf2k6 Yeah it makes sense. I wonder how cost effective it is.
Usually those plates are either milled, turned or ground flat.
Just enough to have a clean surface. So you can use them for a pretty long time
Surface Grinder or Shell Mill on a 3 Axis Mill
We put it in the mill and used a face mill to get a minimal cleanup. We have ground them before as well.
they never ever show u how strong the actual part is..
Nice!
Great Video guys! Printing bike parts seems to be athing ;-).
I have been looking into having some titanium parts made for my company. I saw this video and was like ah ha!! this might be it
general visit
Where can I buy this brake lever?
Imagine printing a whole titans of cnc chess set in one go.
Wonder what the finish is? finger friendly?
Hi Mr. Goforth just wondering do you need to hand remove/polish the suppory material of lever?
what's your production cost per unit though?
…anyway - so cool, welcome to the future🌎
I'm curious, who were the levers for and what brake system? Would love to get my hands on a set
I think it was just a proof of concept.
Awesome video Trevor! Cool way of showing what the 3D printer is able to do in mass production! Rise to Greatness!
Thanks Chris!
This is so exciting to see! I will be starting a new job as a metal additive manufacturing tech at the end of the month and can’t wait to start training to use all these machines
Honestly, I was expecting these parts to take three to five hours of work. I was amazed when you said they took less than half an hour.....Very cool job, man. You made me rethinking about the future of 3D printing I wish If you made an academy for additive machines with Mr trevor 🔥
Thanks Mohammed! An additive academy will happen eventually my friend!
23 mins per lever = 45 hours.
Sweet video! 3D printing has come a long way in the last 5 years. Sustainability is HUGE with this technology, minimizing both waste and energy.
Are you sure?
How do you make powdered titanium?
@@kevinpetow4070 You’re overthinking it. I could easily say, but what about the mining of metals? And go on and on… I’m talking about the waste accumulated during part production only.
what is next? tumbling?
what is the cost breakdown per lever once factoring in machine cost amortization and powder costs? vs milling would be a great compariosn!
under 30 min per part is a good procuction time for a complicated part!
3 printing machines and 3 EDM machines. One single person could make 300 levers every 2 days and only need to come in to work one of each of those two days. If each lever sells for $250 that's $75,000 gross worth of product created every 48 hours... with ONE skilled person not working crazy hard. It's a terrifying investment up front though. You'd have to be SURE your part would work with this manufacturing method and be doubly sure you have a solid market to sell it into.
But gross is not a measure of profit!
That’s why I ask which is more cost effective?
If material for milling is $40 and material for laser is $200….
If the laser machine is 4 million vs $600,000 for the CNC mill
As for labour, any job with enough volume can have automation to reduce manual input.
I’d LOVE to know what The numbers would break down to for ROI milling vs printing on this job.
Either way it’s freaking cool!
As for my bike I think I’ll stick to carbon fibre levers ;)
What is the material of the build plate used.
So how would you cost out these parts? Cost of powder, hourly cost to run the various machines. EDM consumables and labor. Plus post processing to finish the parts. Is the cost of the printing just material and labor or is there more to it? Charles
Also utilities, lease or mortgage payments on the building, insurance, taxes, payments on the machines…
You need to make the distinction this is not just any 'metal'. Titanium must be 3D printed in a vacuum chamber or with a jet of neutralizing gas because it oxidizes easily and you have to block that reaction. It's why these titanium 3D printing vacuum chambers cost a million bucks, although they've come down a bit the last couple years.
Is porosity a problem with materials being printed?
Not on something like this and not really in general with this process, you can accomplish 99.8% density.
Would you guys be willing to test 3D printing a titanium BIKE!
Nobody says it's not possible, it's just impractical. Price per part sucks compared to other methods. How much are they selling that brake lever for? $200?
I would print gun parts. Lots of them. I’d leave files on the machine and let others print gun parts too.
How much does 26m30s of machine time cost on a beast like that ? What kind of finishing work is required?
Designed AND machined with solidworks? Or are you using mastercam as the machining software
I loved this video, but can we get another example because mountain biking consumers are not right in the head and they are willing to pay 300 for pedals
Your bike levers don’t look like finished product. What other procedure is needed to achieve quality of sellable product?
26 minutes per lever is NOT so efficient. Summ price will more then traditional manufacturing
For who was wondering, overall time is just over 50 hours
I want to know the electrical power used and then compared in kW, cost, time and labour to molds and poured produ tion.
@@zteaxon7787 It's still probably faster to print them, they might consume more power but you don't have to attend them and it doesn't need any post processing. And they look way better than cast.
Awesome to see, but what's the cost per unit?
Can't wait to see Travis humiliate Barry by having his Afternoon break table and chair with in front of Barry babysitting his machine while he works
That's not cost effective when you consider cost of equipment then it looks like you need a new build plate every time as a added expensive no way I would invest much in this.
🤓
Thats soooo awesome.
those beauties' can surely shave at least a couple of grams of a total bike build
What would the cost to print be vs machining from billet?
What about machining after printing?
Hold on man, now you goto clean that bottom support from both build plate and finished part. I bet that’s a lot of work
who would i contact about 3d printing aluminum parts ?? as a xost comparison to low volume casting or billet
Lot of porosity in the end of the handle. Is that how the first layer fuses and then it improves after that? Or is the porosity intentional it that's even possible?
Barry looked like he a fibbed against his machine, but this was a super cool video to watch especially all the parts falling off the build plate
Bwahaha
Wow , nice sls machine , thats are expensive machines but the are amazing
It is possible to use for mass production just not for the normal pleb products.
The amazing thing here is why you need EDM! Surely there must be some form of ultra thin Al or Teflon or SOMETHING BETTER! What about that build plate? Machine or grind now? CRAZY
You can also use a saw… etc.
We grind or mill the build plate
@@TITANSofCNC it’s not the method of part separation, it’s that it is needed at all. Must the build plate be a metal that “sticks” to your part metal (powder)?
@@TITANSofCNC if I didn’t say before, this was incredibly interesting!
You guys rock my Sox off! Always!
great video, it would have been interesting if you had shown the 3rd op where the base was machined to remove the remainder of the support matrix.
Do you throw out the build plate after a process or clean it? If clean it, how is that done.
Grind it on the Blohm or Mill it
Impressed at a viable volume commercial product for non-aerospace level part
I’m waiting for powder prices to dip a bit more before looking at machines seriously
Do parts have sinterned or is there a heat process during slicing layers?
I saw that you had printed in a marked line where the final ops will take the levers to shape. Would it be possible to print a kind of separation line there, a thinner layer of print, that the levers could be broken off at to remove the need for EDM to remove them from the print plate? Thus saving an op and allowing the final finishes on the levers to be minimised both in time and cost.
titans please make a full brake setup, better than trickstuff!
I see pistol triggers
Freaking Trevor Man, THE 3D PRINTING GURU! .... Im starving, thank you could 3D print me a pop tart?!
Yeah, but a 4140 pop tart wouldn’t taste good.
Tru Print 2000, $1 million each... plus all the support equipment. WoW!
How do I get some of those levers? I have those brakes 👀
Change is the only constant.
You mean the only constant is change
Never mind that they look like crap…
How do you clean the build plate????
you guys didnt answer the obvious manufacturing questions: what post processing is required to turn those into finished products? Can that build plate be resurfaced? How many times?
@4:36 Yup! the guy was scared to death.
That EDM machine is a dream...
Please do a comparison between complete cycle time of the 3d printed part vs. a mill turn part. OR how many can be done in a day, raw material costs, etc.
what do you do for surface treatment/finishing for parts like these? maybe some tumbling (not sure if that is the correct term sry)
also chris peeking over at the end 😂 as a small guy l can relate
Yep tumbling or bead blast etc.
Ya, Chris is a US Marine… He is Everywhere… always Watching😳
@@TITANSofCNC respect to that man. fighting for his country and now manufacturing for it.
How to do this with polymers?
what is the soundtrack in the intro?
Holy cr0p my mind is fully blown
OMG!!! I need a set of levers like those in my life!!!!!! They are awsome!!!!!!
how do you clean the build plate?
I LOL'd at Chris peeking around the back LMAO
why not position the levers at an angle so that the wire does not get all the increased resistance at once, but gradual.
awesome technology, love your work
👍