An important thing I didn't touch on in this video that I think is worth mentioning: I am not saying you shouldn't play the game without the Easy Ring. I just see no issue with a player finding the game more enjoyable by using it. In fact, I would advocate for playing without it, as I said in my last video, that's the most authentic experience you can have with it. Just want it to be clear that I'm not arguing everyone should or has to use the Easy Ring.
Oh definitely, I don't get why people are trying to prove you wrong when all you're saying is that people are allowed to use the easy ring and reasons as to why they would, people should play the way they want to play and there's nothing wrong with that, maybe they just dont have the time to grind for long periods or maybe they want to move on instead of battling an enemy every few steps and as much as I love the original game, it has flaws which turn people away and problems which really bring it down and the easy ring is an answer for the problems that people have and can greatly benefit the experience but if they want to experience it as authentically as possible and can work around the issues then go with the original game, I don't see an issue there.
Yeah, for some (mostly veterans) who have mastered the game and don't really mind the grinding too much, You can always just ignore it. For others, it really helps the game be enjoyable. I tried Mother 1 out a few months back and put it down very early because I just wasn't having fun. I love the Mother series, but even then I'm not putting time into a game that actively frustrates me. Now, thanks to your video, I might try it again, this time with a version that has the easy ring, because grinding isn't my thing. (Too bad there isn't a better encounter mechanic. I get there were hardware limitations, but damn is the game annoying to play with those stupid encounters every five seconds.)
i beat the game at bare minimum ninten on nso without easy ring legit rng manipulation was the only way i got through (i figured it out on my complete own) what was worse was that i had to constantly save state and close the app to watch a guide because my PC wasn't working during the time
@@marsybarz Minimum runs in RPGs sounds completely wild to me. Even with external tools like save states, those types of runs are almost always completely unfair. Also wouldn't Easy Ring defeat the purpose of a minimum run?
I played the fan translated port of mother 1 a couple years ago (the version without an easy ring) and the only part I remember being a pain was directly outside of Nintens house (which in all fairness is not a good introduction to a game- and has definitely suffered from being an old game) but that's the part that I thought was grindy because you need to level up first before being able to get to the first area. However I don't think I grinded from there on- I just came across random encounters as I explored and it may be rose tinted glasses but it's one of my favorite gaming memories which is jarring since I'm not at all fond of RPGs or grinding. I also beat gigyas very under-leveled but it took a lot of tries to even figure out how I was supposed to because I'm stupid.
Even as someone who's first RPG was the very grindy dragon warrior on NES, I would still advocate for the easy ring in this game if you feel like it. Grinding just isn't fun to me, but it's not really my job to dictate how people experience a single player game regardless. At the end of the day, it's simply an option that you're not forced to use, so I like it
Dragon Quest I is an interesting example because every remake of it improved the initial Exp gain amongst other balance. So, there's already an "authentic" game experience that is arguably more enjoyable than the original available.
The major problem with EarthBound Beginnings is whenever you get a new party member except for Teddy. They all start at Level 1, requiring you to go back to Magicant to get the party members up to the levels of the enemies in the next area. This is especially bad with the beginning of the game, as the optimal way to even get to Podunk is to grind on the rats in the basement since two of the enemies that can spawn outside are too strong for Ninten to beat at Level 2.
The difficulty curve is pretty wonky. It starts hard, then the whole game until Mt Itoi can easily be beaten with auto battle. (outside of bosses, maybe)
I personally am a believer that grinding, especially on this modern age, shouldn’t stick out. Games nowadays now have to be constructed where the game around you grows with you on an even pace. Yes, I love being challenged but not to the point to make me feel overwhelmed. As an adult, it’s really difficult to play games on its completion because of how busy we become, and we don’t have time to do stuff like grinding. While I don’t personally mind grind on MOTHER 1, cause I love the game so much, I can definitely see people being frustrated to just spend an hour on Magicant trying to grind Lloyd and Ana to even levels to your Ninten. At the end of the day, people can choose how they play and shouldn’t be berated about it, cause in the end, we love the game for many reasons. That’s what’s important.
My main gripe with EB0 is RNG since it's just plain luck having certain enemies not using stone origin, paralysis or even them using PK BEAM Y on the only Party member without a Franklin badge
I just beat Earthbound Beginnings on switch a month ago, and I pretty much fought every battle, and still ended up underleveled. I didn't want to use any save states, and I didn't know about how you're supposed to grind with EVE and Teddy, and got to gigue around level... 25-30 i think? I had to go back up that stupid mountain like 20 times just to get to Gigue, and the four times I fought him were PAINFUL man. At least until I realized that PSI shield Beta and Defense up beta stacked, and spamming the heal all allies thing. That made the fight just BARELY winnable. Addendum: It took me about a week to beat the game. I didn't use a guide, and it took me FOREVER to get through some of the different dungeons or to figure out where the fuck I was supposed to go. I was really into it, though, and I had a lot of fun! I played for several hours each day, but MAN did the encounters get old.
I was gonna ask how you even got to Geigue at that low of a level then I saw you had to reclimb the mountain 20 times... yikes. that being said, I am around level 33ish for Ninten with a little grinding and I am terrified atm to let EVE explode because IDK how I am going to handle shit like 4 LastStarmen or worse going up.
@@jeremyabbott4537 I found out near the end that, if you REALLY don't want to deal with those guys, you don't get encounters during teleport. It only works in some areas where its short enough to hit a wall, but not too short, and the cost of failure is getting your ass sent ALLLLLL the way back to the start. This also happened a few times :(
I ended up using save states in the final battle. I was constantly one sing shy of beating him it just came down to luck if I survived his attack or not. So I simply reloaded until luck was on my side.
I feel like the biggest problem with MOTHER's base difficulty is its nature as pretty specifically being a parody/deconstruction of the first two or three games in the Dragon Quest series, which do have a problem with balancing and being very grind heavy. The difficulty of the game was very much a product of its time and its influences, regardless of Itoi going "whatever" at the balancing in some of the areas. With that in mind, the Easy Ring is a perfectly suitable option for anyone that wants to play MOTHER without having to play it like an early JRPG.
I largely agree, but I'm not sure the balancing issues are intentionally meant to satirize Dragon Quest. If it is...I say that's still a strike against it. If that's the case and it's an artistic decision, I respect it, but still think it's a choice that ends up hurting the experience.
@@MonkeyNess Oh no sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the balancing issues are intentional, more that they come as a side effect of utilizing Dragon Quest as inspiration in general. I actually agree that it is a strike against the game, seeing as new and emerging franchises within and offshoots of the genre were already working on mitigating these same grinding and balancing issues.
Yeah his animal crossing example doesn't make much sense using the normal definition of "challenging". But I don't think it holds up in regard to stakes either. In my opinion, AC is about the vibes. Fishing and all that other gamey stuff isn't very important (or fun).
Okay, but goat simulator you can't lose, no thing to push you forward, mid graphics, and kinda good music, yet its fun and replayable, basically breaking your argument in the first part
Personally I think the biggest issue is that, due to it being an NES game, lots of people will defend the questionable design choices and results of a rushed development as the devs, "not holding your hand." Personally I wish there were a remake for Mother 1 that brought it to the same level of quality as Mother 2 and 3. Many people like myself have a hard time returning to NES Metroid as many of the features and series standards had not been laid out there and I feel a remake like Zero Mission was really necessary to be able to experience Samus' first outing.
Teddy is proof that the stars that burn the brightest, burn out the quickest. If only a giant robot didn't come out of nowhere and step on him, and then get blasted off a mountain by a grey child.
Thank you for bringing up the negative stigma associated with easy games. I don't see why people correlate easy=bad. My favorite video game series of all time is Kirby and people give those games a bad rap just because they are on the easier side. And as someone who hates grinding, I know that if I played Mother 1 without the Easy Ring my enjoyment of the game would be much less. Sorry for the rant, but this channel is great and you've earned my sub
@@DayzeeHeartwin I figured I probably shouldn't mention the harder aspects of Kirby because my comment was already too long. I was mainly referring to the base-game content, but yeah Kirby games do get extremely difficult in the postgame and if you want to get 100% completion. Still have yet to beat Kirby Planet Robobot's True Arena and my save file sits at 99% to this day :')
the first game went in my little "this is such a dumpster fire, i love it so much" box along with pokemon red and sonic 06. games that are actually painful to play at times or are really broken but i love them anyway because they're still fun and have great things in them
When I was younger I hated grinding and thought it was wasting the limited playtime I had, but over time I started to find it relaxing and appreciate how much more rewarding it makes the eventual goal. I really don't like having to metagame though. If a game requires me to take actions that the characters have no reason to take within the world's logic, then I lose interest. Telling me I need to intentionally kill off party members or fail teleports makes it seem like a really badly designed game, which I know Mother is not.
hmmm... i can see both sides earthbound zero was the second mother game i played (after mother 3) on nintendo switch online. for me it was perfectly managable but only because i took time to grind for the proper equipment for the entire party in magicant which took a LOT of time, and i can see why people don't want to do that. it's just a matter of preference, isn't it? also the last part is a BlTCH but stocking up on lifeup creams and ONLY using psi to heal (use psi block on the cerebrum and then steal PP from them when you run out) makes giygas a lot more managable. but again that takes a lot of time
As you said in the original video, it's more about balance than difficulty. If I have to halt the game's progression at every major point of the game, it's not challenging. In fact, it's.. exactly the opposite of that. I am losing brain cells doing a repetitive action instead of having to think. That is actually another issue I tend to get with grinding personally : overcorrection. It's so mindless it's easy to just go too far in the other direction.
“Magicant is the first area to grind” Bruh, there’s legit a Final Fantasy style exploit where you can take Pippi outside the gate of the Zoo to fight Zoo enemies with her and grind there to become Op. Gorillas and Crocodiles give more XP than most magicant enemies, and they’re faster to beat anyway
I think grinding on RPGs is fun, it's a zen for me and as a kid with few games turning a 10 hour games into a 100 hour games... but that being said there is no reason to keep a game grind heavy and disrespect someone's time who doesn't have the time to grind, that is why a OPTION like a "easy ring" is great and fills both types of situations
I'm just going to flip the table on the whole argument entirely. Considering grinding a form of "difficulty" or "challenge" misunderstands what "difficulty" is. "Difficulty" is in skill and effort, it's the elements of understanding and execution required for practical progress based on the restraints set by the game, literally one of the 3 pillars that make something a "game" rather than an "activity". Grind is simply wasting the player's time executing an identical task to one they've already mastered, again and again.
Ah yes because using psi to attack the final boss in earthbound zero will definitely do something meaningful and definitely not be a waste of time Edit: I am making a joke about psi or earthbound zero's version of magic only being useful against the final boss for healing and lifeup
I had my first playthrough of earthbound beginnings this year. I didn’t have much of an issue with difficulty until mount itoi gave me trouble. Still grinded alot more than I was used to. I feel like the easy ring makes the game faster and less of a pain to play. It’s up to the person though how they want to play the game though.
I like how even the speedruns grind, mostly with EVE. It's important to consider developers' mindsets back in 1989, though. Sure, they often made games harder to last longer. But they also weren't expecting someone to play it 30 years later with prior knowledge and an Internet guide telling them where to go next. M1 has a giant open world for an NES game, and a kid wandering around trying to figure out what to do will naturally get buffed up from all the encounters. If you make a beeline straight to the graveyard, you're skipping what could be hours of intended gameplay.
People acting as if the years of knowledge from someone who has played this before doesn't make the game way easier. New players should be able to play at whatever difficulty ESPECIALLY in an rpg where grinding means you have to pause the entire story until you're done. I feel it breaks the flow of the entire game.
7:48 mom, I appeared on tv Also I used the word complete /beat because by that time you experience all if not most the charms that mother 1 has to offer. I do believe that changing the difficult makes the players having too much of a different experience, that late 80s difficult is in my opinion a core element of the game even if not intentional, that why I much preffer the states mechanic rather than a difficulty switch mechanic. Just to add to the conversation
@@dmas7749 have you ever played on a emulator? It let you save states of your game at any point its outside the save system inside the game. It helps when you are in a tough position rewind to a early state
Honestly mother 1 no matter how much i enjoy, i can not imagine playing the game without the ring. Like wow is the encounters a lot, and i was playing the gba version, which has reduced encounter rates i believe
I first played beginning on wiiU, and it was hell. But i knew what I was getting into. I was told that Mt. Itoi would be a hellish barrage of constant battles, and I admit, it was hell. I had to do constant Teleport manips to get around. But players should play how they want. If you want a challenge, thats great, I prefer a challenge too. But if your just starting, then play the “easy mode”. But if a game is hard in a “challenging” way, not a cheap death way (And you know what your getting into) thats the creators vision, and i recommend playing the game the way the creator envisioned. Also i really agree with your points, mother1 was not perfect, far from it. The gameplay was faulty, but the story was what drove me to finish it. Weather you exploit the game or play how it how the devs thought you would, its had a long lasting impact on a lot of people that still reminisce about the game. From people who just found it, to those people who played it from emulation years back, it left us a community of fans and definitely great discussions. Keep up the quality content!
The one thing I take away from this video is that this damn community really do be at each others' throats over an optional difficulty change (not you) Alas this is something not everyone's gonna agree with, but hey as Itoi said, "whatever", lol
The way I see it, the Easy Ring has its place. It's like the exp share in the older Pokémon games. You don't need to pick it up, but it does make the games easier by reducing the amount of time grinding. If it makes things more convenient, but isn't mandatory to pick up, then I don't really see the problem. It changes nothing besides what you think it changes. Don't like it? Don't pick it up, you have that option. it isn't even the same argument in Pokémon games where you could toggle the exp share off because there it gets forced on you, while this is just in a present, right? You don't need to pick it up, do you? It's there for players who need it, but if you don't need it then fine. It makes the game more accessible for everyone without forcing any difficulty away for those who don't want things to be made less difficult.
I think the best way a game deincentivized grinding was Paper Mario. the star point system made it so 100 points was always a level up, and how it worked was every enemy had a level in the files, and the amount of star points gained was equal to the difference between the enemy and Mario's level, divided by 2 (correct me if I'm wrong about that). if Mario was at an equal or higher level than an enemy, it would give no star points. if the enemy was much stronger than Mario, it would give a lot more star points and you'd level faster. it made it so that you're basically always on par with the enemies and grinding was basically impossible.
Hey, you're just a person with a view, just like me. I'm very glad you left your other comments, and hope you continue sharing your thoughts, even if you disagree. I hope this didn't feel like bullying, any and all type of "angry ranting" moments are done purely for comedic effect.
@@MonkeyNess I think I misinterpreted your view as saying that challenge is the ONLY appeal in gaming, and I felt a little invalidated because I tend to actively avoid challenging games and focus on characters. People dunk on me enough about not being a 'real gamer' because I don't like hard games, so I got a little butthurt. Keep doin' whatcha doin', can't wait to see this channel grow
I don't have too much critical input in this topic, I just love listening to your takes on stuff like this. Thank you, sworn protector of the Easy Ring: MonkeyNess
Heres the thing, in a single player game, it doesn't matter what exactly you do to your game. If you want to play it exactly as it was released the first time, go ahead. If you want to use save states in order to get past a difficult part, go ahead. If you want to use cheats to get past a difficult part, go ahead if you want to cheat or hack your game to just mess around, go ahead. It is your game and you play it the way you want to. Some people may say that "The easy ring is not the way the game was MEANT to be played". It can be discussed if it's original difficulty was the way it was MEANT to be played either, but that isn't really relevant. It doesn't really matter if you're playing it the way it was meant to be played, I think it more matters on if you played it in the way that you enjoyed it, if that means making the game easier, then go ahead. In some games, you are able to tone the difficulty to your liking, your able to turn on invincibility in order to get past a section. I think that is really cool. Those who want to use those options can use them and those who don't want to use those options don't have to use them. I think the issue arises when it comes to discussing the game. For example, my friend was playing Pokemon Sword and then complained that the game was too easy, which I will agree it is. But the reason it was easy for him was because he grinded all of his pokemon to lvl 70 before the first gym (basically the first boss who has like lvl 10 - 15 pokemon at max for context) (and the champion (the final boss) has like lvl 60s, maybe a 70 if I'm remembering correctly). Of course the game would be easy for him, because he grinded his pokemon higher than any other enemy in the game. So in this case, I would say that it is invalid for him to say that the game is easy because his team was higher than any enemy in the game for it to even be a challenge. Now, for the context of the Easy Ring. I think you can still have a discussion about the game. This is coming from someone who has never played Mother 1. But I feel like there can be at least similar sections that people can relate on with or without the easy ring. In addition, you can still talk about sections that were hard for you. Yes, the game will be easier with the easy ring, but I don't think that makes the game invalid. The Mother 1 and Pokemon situations seem similar, but they are different. The easy ring can still make the game difficult (especially to new players), and the game can still be fun. The game isn't suddenly a cake walk just with the ring. And as you mentioned in the previous video, you lose out on other equipment that may have been better because of this ring. With the Pokemon example, that was intentional grinding to the point where no enemy was a threat and then complaining that the game was too easy. I think the easy ring only gets to this points if you understand the game and get it. And that is after a first playthrough. And even with the Pokemon example, my friend may not be able to talk about the difficulty. But he can still talk about how he may not like the story, or the character designs. And similar to Mother. Even if you think that the Easy Ring destroys all difficulty to where they can't talk about the game being too easy. Well there are other aspects that they can talk about the game outside of just the difficulty. With the easy ring, there will be differences between having it and not having it. But that's okay. Just because you don't want to use something doesn't mean that everyone else is stupid for it. Just because you don't have to make the game easier doesn't mean that everyone else is a baby because they have to be. Because let's be honest here. None of us could beat Mother without a Moon Gravity cheat.
Now, while I agree with your opinion, I do have one issue. Losing in a game dosen't make me want to try again. It makes me want to stop playing. When I get frustrated with a game, I just say to myself "If it's not fun, why bother?"
Idk dude I beat it on NSO last week and I just spammed Ana's PSI Lifeup Omega, and I gave her pretty much all the PSI Stones to her. When I had Teddy and EVE I grinded.
This is a pretty good follow up video from the first one. When I watched the first one, (and to further extent, multiple M1 videos) I was genuinely shocked by how many people say the easy ring and modifying the game to have less encounter rates and stuff of the sorts ruins the game, and shouldn't be the way to play it. I love playing rpg's and enjoy some hard challenging ones, honestly, grinding and growing stonger is fun for me, but even then, M1 is too much. It's balancing it wack, and grinding after level 20 is pain since it starts to take so long, even at Mt. Itoi. Having options to leviate that and make it more enjoyable for others is a good thing. There's nothing wrong with wanting an easier experience for games. I used the rewind function that the NES Switch app gives you, and that made M1 so much more enjoyable for me. Because of it, I could see myself going back to the game just as I would with the other 2 games
One of my favorite things about difficulty in games better is honestly *Options.* There ain't no real reason to dock easier options because they "ruin the game." Some people might not find that difficulty level to be "fun", or if it ruins the experience or not. People have different tolerances on what level of difficulty they can handle, and I can enjoy that, especially being a person who doesn't like grinding. I think one of my favorite examples in terms of difficulty is honestly Pokemon, and its EXP Share. Earlier games had it as a catch up mechanic for lower leveled Pokemon without having to use them, which is always nice to have, but generations 6-7 are always interesting to me in terms of choosing difficulty. The EXP share in those generations actually spread experience throughout all of your Pokemon, and give an extra boost in experience, which definitely makes the game much easier, but you can turn it off anytime to make the game generally harder, where you can avoid fights and be severely underleveled before getting to places if you're really good at the games, or you can just choose to play the game with that EXP share, and have a much easier time with the Pokemon you want. I like that choice of difficulty options in the game, and I feel the Easy ring does that same type of thing as well, but on a harder scale. If you're familiar with Earthbound mechanics, or is really well versed in the JRPG genre, you can avoid the use of the Easy Ring to provide a challenge, but if you aren't as confident, or you don't want to waste your time grinding or learning the proper starts for grinding and just want to play the game, you can do that as well with the Easy Ring. It's nice. Options are nice.
O boy, duz system shock hav opshunz, yoo can make roomz devoid uv lyf, entyrlee filld tu the brim, chooz onlee roubots, ounlee monsterz, yoo can eeven make the PUZZLZ eezeeur! now if only you didnt need a tank license to play it. the 1 opshun ya kant chaenj.
Exp share makes no difference to me because I always powerlevel one really strong Pokémon then let them breeze through the game, using my other 5 members as revive pylons. Actually having a balanced team did encourage me to take more risks but you better believe my status-immune swords dance Leafeon was both going to move first, crit, and then restore all its health the next turn.
I honestly do see where Dragoon is coming from with that argument. It may not apply to the criticisms of EBB specifically, but I've seen it SO many times in reviews of other RPGs. Namely the Dragon Quest or Etrian Odyssey series. Grinding can and absolutely has been made a fun part of the gameplay loop in a lot of games, especially more modern ones. Take The World Ends With You for example. That game allows you to increase the difficulty of combat on yourself at any time, but in exchange drastically boosts the rewards you get from enemies. This may only work in an action game like that, but it still makes the experience incredibly fun and rewarding regardless. I see the complaint very often that "Grinding is not real difficulty or engaging gameplay" which I just don't think is correct. Like when Pokemon introduced the upgraded EXP Share and then subsequently made it non-optional in gen 8. I saw a lot of people saying that there was nothing wrong with that, and that all it did was eliminate unnecessary grinding, but what they fail to realize is the difficulty curve of the game was not adjusted to compensate, making it one of the easiest games in the series, with not much you can really do to change that. This, to me, runs counter to the loop that makes RPGs fun in the first place. A loop that I believe Legends Arceus nailed just by virtue of the enhanced freedom and real challenging bosses. And then you have more recent games like Xenoblade, where the amount of options you're given for combat is so immense that you're bound to find some strategy that works for any encounter you're having trouble on, while still being encouraged to fight stronger enemies for extra challenge as well as extra loot. Something that earlier RPGs like EBB just couldn't do. The gameplay loop of games like Dragon Quest, for instance, also involve plenty grinding, however, the tedium is mitigated by relatively short length and amount of options for upgrading your gear and magic. Inventory management is just as much of an element of combat as magic and attacking. Thats usually the part people struggle with the most, never buying items and being afraid to use the ones they have because they don't know when they'll get more. This is kinda like what EBB was going for, except the stretches between towns that sell items is insanely long and you will most likely die before you can even go back to stock up. Plus theres no storage system like in EB or M3 to allow you to stock up in advance, making combat much more limited than the games that came before it.
In terms of Giygas it was because you didn’t use PSI Shield Beta. That cuts his attack down to 30 a turn making him much more manageable You also are able to heal at Magicant and get more items before the boss. Sorry for the repeat comment, just wanted to make sure you saw it.
The challenge stuff about not dying and animal crossing actually ties into why I loss interest in the newest animal crossing super fast compared to new leaf since there’s like nothing to level up after the first week, no shop upgrades, no towns works projects it was BOORRRING!!!!!
EarthBound Beginnings isn't hard, I only died 39 times. (Not a lot of deaths.) It took me 32 hours and 39 minutes. (6 days.) 10/10 video game. A guaranteed masterpiece. (It's better than EarthBound SNES.)
I hate when people treat save states as a good solution for a game's problems. Most of the time they only serve to either make up for a lack of checkpoints (which I understand) or to abuse luck to brute force a section of the game. They also do nothing to address actual problems with balance, and do nothing to address the grinding prevalent in Earthbound Beginnings and other JRPGs of the era.
You can like playing video games without liking challenges. It’s possible to have fun while “doing tasks with no challenge.” I don’t know why you’re not considering this as a possibility. I’m not personally one of those people, but the replies you read made their arguments very clear. So yeah, telling these people to “just watch a movie LOL” misses their point.
@@MonkeyNess - That doesn’t seem like a very honest reply. “I was only replying to one person, so therefore your argument is invalid”?? My response was only for that section of the video. I wasn’t “arguing” against the rest.
@LankyLink I apologize, I misinterpreted part of your comment-I took “all these people” as everyone I was responding to in the video. However, a large point I was making in the video was that even doing small tasks IS a form of challenge, regardless of if the punishment for failing is big or not.
While I don't necessarily disagree with most of the things you said in this video, there was one thing that rubbed me the wrong way. I don't like notion that choices in a video game only matter as far the game's challenge drives you to make them. There are plenty of ways for games to give you choices that are not intended to be made with the gameplay in mind. For example, let's say I'm playing a game and I can take two different paths, one adorned with roses, and one adorned with tulips. The game isn't really telling me which path will be more difficult, or if one even will be more difficult, so my decision is only going to be based off of which flower I like more. But the decision still matters, I still want to take the path with the flower I like because I believe I'll enjoy it more, and the choice makes the experience more fulfilling and unique. If I were watching a movie, the protagonist would take the path they wanted to, without any input from me. So of course I'd feel disconnected from the protagonist of a movie vs. the protagonist of a video game, because they aren't making the same choices I would. Now, yeah, of course you'd want both paths to be unique in gameplay. That would prevent it from becoming a bit stale on repeat playthroughs. But this does not mean that the gameplay made the decision matter at all. It would be completely valid to have just wanted to see the flowers on both routes, with the gameplay helping *further* their uniqueness, not defining it. I also don't like how you immediately jumped to saying the appeal of story/character driven decisions is escapism. I don't have to want to escape the real world to want to place myself in a fantasy setting where I make choices based on what I would want to do, I could just think it would be interesting. I feel like I should clarify that this comment isn't intended to be aggressive in any way, and I hope it didn't come off as so. I just disagreed with what you said strongly enough to want to talk about it. Hope you're having a good day.
On the "path of flowers" analogy, I completely agree with you, you've persuaded me! I think some of my arguments might be better framed in a "choices matter" framework. Though I'd still argue that's less of a game design view, as it doesn't necessarily impact the overall game, unlike Animal Crossing, where the aesthetics play a large role in the experience. And I wasn't trying to imply story/character are the escapism aspect, that was about the idea of playing for the sole purpose of entering the world. Wanting to do this is perfectly valid, I just personally believe a video game should do more than be a portal to another world, it should be one into the shoes of the protagonist, like we agree, choices matter! Didn't get any sense of aggression from you, and thank you for being so respectful and conductive to real conversation! I'm glad it seems the drive for both of us to speak our thoughts came from a good place: passion and a drive to think critically. The central theme of my video is just that: trying to facilitate a productive dialogue! Thanks for your comment, as it really did help me to see some things in a different way. Hope you're having a great day too! Hina Kagiyama , MonkeyNess, forever!
@@MonkeyNess Glad you enjoyed my comment! I'm happy to have been able to communicate my viewpoint to you in a respectful way. I'm also glad you clarified on the escapism aspect, and I definitely agree with you there. Looking forward to more videos from you, you've definitely earned my sub.
Welcome aboard, glad to have you! I made a slight adjustment to my previous comment as well, if you'd like to reread part of it, though the message of it is broadstroke the same.
Nice argument, however, you forgot one fatal point. You cannot take your dog with you on your adventure, therefore this game is horrible, and is not worth playing. Is what I would say if TEDDY WASN'T IN IT, BABYYYYYY
I think people are looking at these old RPGs under a vastly different lens than what these games were developed under. Many of these old games were designed so that people wouldn't get through the content quickly by making random encounters difficult; and by making completing game objective a bit obtuse and dungeons mazelike players would get lost and and likely take more battles. Most modern RPGs are design much more tightly with more straightforward dungeon, relatively less dangerous encounters and healing in dungeons. Honestly most often the best thing to do in retro RPGs is to either level up trying reach the boss or grind outside and flee from all encounters in order to keep valuable resources.
I loved this and part 1, not alot of people talk about the easy ring and theres a reason its a so hotly debated topic. In my experience i can beat the gba version in 55 minutes without the easy ring and 49 minutes with the easy ring, so basically the easy ring makes mother 1 gba six minutes easier. Jokes aside my first playthrough of mother 1 used the easy ring, and it made me love the game a ton. I probably would have been deterred from the game if i was blind and without the easy ring. I had already played mother 2 and 3 and knew 1 was another level of difficulty. That being said, with enough skill, preparation, rng manipulation, glitches, and luck, the game is not THAT bad without it. Dimension warp/4th D slip is one of my favorite spells, literal get out of jail free card, and it really messes up itoi section. Also using eve to grind on itoi makes the rest of the game not that bad. And dont even get me started on the breadcrumb glitch. Mother 1 and mt itoi can feel unfair at times, but its non linear open world really puts it above mother 2 and 3 in my opinion. Earthbound can be open ended at times, like skipping the mole and sprout sanctuaries, but mother 1 you can skip party members, entire towns, alot of weapons and armor, and what seem like important items like the onyx hook and still beat the game just fine. Also you can get basically any melody in any order except the 8th one in the Japanese version, this freedom gives me alot more enjoyment out of replaying the game compared to 2 and 3. The easy ring is a great feature added in the translation, and definitely recommend using it for a first playthrough. I’d also recommend after that playing the game without the easy ring, unless you know thats not your style. I definitely get enjoyment out of harder games and love to miss the easy ring, however from time to time i still love to use it and fly through the game. Once you get used to mother 1 no easy ring, like very familiar with the game, using the easy ring almost feels unnatural. I weirdly start to miss the incredibly high encounter rate, but the game is certainly easier. Overall mother 1 is my favorite video game of all time, easy ring or not, and if anything listen to that banger ost. (Also if you want to learn how to speedrun a game mother 1 was my first and favorite game to speedrun, the reasons above is just scratching the surface on how much i love this game)
I think I disagree with your assumption that your choices only matter in a game if there's a challenge to it. Even a very simple and linear walking sim still provides an interactive decision space that is broader than that of a film, and the choices you make within that decision space affect your experience with it--even if you're only choosing where to point the camera. Video games are a fundamental medium, and they don't have to feature a challenge in order to justify their existence. If you were to play a challenge-less video game and watch a movie, each one depicting the same events, both experiences _would_ be distinct.
I guess I just don't even really know what a "walking simulator" is, to me, it sounds like a newly emerging art form or subgenre rather than a "game", but that's just speculation, I'd have to research it before making that call.
@@MonkeyNess I think what Harrison Fackerell means with ¨walking simulator¨ is that despite a game being the simplest game that has ever existed, there will still be a ¨challenge¨ to it. Take for example the game ¨The Longing¨, the game is literally about waiting 400 IRL days, no complex story, no character development, no mechanics, really few choices to make, just waiting. Now you might think ¨this thing sucks, i just have to wait, there is no challenge¨ but you will be completely wrong becuse despite being a game about waiting it has different endings, making each second matter, making this game has its unique type of challenge. If a movie was made about this game, you will have a different experience playing the game than seeing the movie of the game, even if they copy pasted every dialogue, scene, or plot twist, the experience will still be very different. Is not that some games have a an easier challenge, but rather a different type of challenge, Or that is what i understood from Harrison Fackerell comment.
0:42 "The vast majority of people who say that RPGS require grinding just avoid battles" Okay, fair argument, and I believe that... But not in Mother 1. Alphs made a video on Mother 1. It feels like you get an encounter on EVERY step, and even if you did and fought them ALL, it wouldn't be enough EXP to fight the upcoming boss. Games like Omori, Mother 3, or Earthbound can just be beaten if you fight every enemy in your path and only avoid stuff like the Farm Zombie or Mushroom enemies due to them causing horrible status effects. Mother 1 is MUCH more manageable with the Easy ring, and like this youtuber said, it has a drawback in being outdated at some point in defensive stats. Even with the Easy Ring, it felt like I got encounters every two steps on Mt Itoi. This is what Ana is MADE for. Beam Gamma and Fire Omega really change up the game here and make it possible to not have to 4th-Dimension Slip every 5 seconds. As for the final battle, Giegue actually felt really manageable to me despite his incredible damage output due to Shield, and Lloyd put in some work by being the first one to Sing rather than guarding. After all, Ana and Ninten are frail and busy respectively. 1:04 Mother 1... is an exception to that rule. 1:11 I have an explanation for this! Spamming attacks and tanking hits is an important ability with any game. People are afraid to not have full health for any upcoming battle and therefore just... go back to the last town and have to go back through the area, resulting in a less fun experience. People who leave at a good amount of health could cause more problems for themselves. I... Look I never said I had a GOOD explanation for this, just an explanation. People who don't use most of their health when they're FAR past a safe amount are usually the ones who complain about grinding. 1:25 ... With that amount of health I'm pretty sure you just didn't use shields... But your point still stands! Yes, that's a problem with most RPGs, where people just run from everything and then complain that a fight's impossible and they have to grind... But with Mother 1 that's not a good enough excuse. Even WITH the Easy Ring I was having trouble in some places... and I was taking fights left and right (Unless I wasn't in a safe place to heal but hey I don't complain about grinding lol) 1:56 Okay, running out of MP/PP is a valid answer. ... But oh boy, Mt Itoi is the time to RUN. If you can't Fire Omega them all down or Beam Gamma a single tough enemy, it's probably best not to take a fight. That's just how Mother 1 works. 2:17 Oh right, PSI stones! I forgot about those things. They were great. 2:44 Fair enough. 6:09 I... ... Unpopular opinion, *WILDLY* unpopular opinion... I prefer Lloyd to Teddy. I am well aware that Teddy is better in every way and I don't even prefer Lloyd because of the bottle rockets or any of the other items. I prefer Lloyd because of his personality. He's shy, he's a weakling, but he's TRYING. The Boomerang is Lloyd's best weapon, along with Ana's. I never used Ana for her magic attacks except in bosses and against tougher opponents... and I rarely used Lloyd for explosives. Which means everyone had to spam regular attacks, and Lloyd was the second strongest for once. He was able to actually DO something despite being the wimpiest and weakest of the four. He had the Sword from Magicant in his pocket for when Teddy came around, yes, but when I got him back, I was so happy to see him. He will always be the second best non-PSI user in my heart. Fourth best Character, behind Jeff, Ness, and Kumatora. Yeah, uh... I honestly don't like Duster as much. He is cool, yes, but I prefer Lloyd... as a character. As a party member I prefer Duster.
I enjoy this post quite a bit, but I'd like to take this time to actually complain about the lack of difficulty OMORI has. It's good that you can beat OMORI without grinding, but like... it's so easy. Especially the further you get into it. Ive played through it 3 times, once on the Hikkikomori route, and even then it still isn't remotely difficult. It's sad because I love OMORI but it really is such a piss-easy game. Kel breaks the game as soon as you get Run n Gun - Chicken Ball, which you gain access to right after the prologue. Aubrey breaks the game as soon as she gets Counter... in the prologue. Hero breaks the game as soon as he gets Smile (again in the prologue)... which is a weaker version of Mesmerize, which is also totally busted. I love OMORI but the way they set up skills just made every battle so formulaic. Early game Anger Aubrey and have her spam headbutt, then you just spam Run n Gun Kel while Aubrey spams Counter and Hero spams Smile/Mesmerize. If the enemy is too strong for Aubrey to tank, make Hero do it instead with Smile/Mesmerize and just have Aubrey use Power Hit so Kel and nuke the enemies even more. It's sad because OMORI gameplay wise is significantly worse than each of his friends, but of they give them skills more akin to OMORI's the game wouldn't be so busted. Kel literally solos the game after getting Chicken Ball TL;DR OMORI is a sick game but it's the actual RPG aspect of it is incredibly easy if you know how to actually play it.
@@Ken-ru6or Fair enough. I'm just a sucker for absolute overpowered characters. Ness (Earthbound), Kel (Omori, obviously and RunNGun isn'this only OP move as he has Rally), and Alain (HOME, also has a move that's basically Rally) are good examples of what I like to see. Ana is pretty close to that tbh
Wait, what do farm zombies do? By the time I dealt with them in my most recent playthrough, I was a dumbass who farmed for the T-Rex Bat and I was obliterating them before they acted.
Easy Ring is fine for people new to the game IMO. The game really doesn't need it though IMO once you know how to break the game. However I can see why people might want it. The Duncan Rocket Factory is the hardest area in the game for me. Mt Itoi is easier on repeat play through for me but that factory always pushes me to my limit to get through. -Keep your new party member Lloyd alive until the end or you aren't able to beat it -The foes using pk fire, Fireballs, Miners. PK Fire protection is the main protection you need and this factory lets you learn that. -Robots with PK Beam -Dr Mad with offense up that comes with a goon. -The biggest maze in the game, with so many good items. You want several of the items here and 1 you for sure want unless you are ok with some annoying enemies casting PK Beam Gamma. Stuff like the haunted house has a cheese strat for the maze, Magicant's maze has been made easier in later versions...this factory has never been balanced. The only mercy the enemy selection gives is miner might waste turns but also might drop a bomb if you beat it which is a win button for one battle here most of the time, and Dr Mad might run away but even that might be annoying. Scrap robots only fire pk beam, old robots can guard, hit hard, and fire beams. EB0's easy to beat for me the moment Ninten learns life up beta because he can then solo Giygas if need be but this factory... man this factory...
With the anniversary hack's rebalancing, it still doesn't completely fix the difficulty "curve" (more like a sine wave), nor the EXP grind. It's a good start, however if someone takes the time to further rebalance MOTHER, I feel like it'd be a better experience for everyone looking to play through the game. The problem in doing this is that there are no useful tools for MOTHER, so everything will have to be done through binary. The easy ring, in my opinion, is useless. I've played through MOTHER numerous times, having no problems with leveling in the beginning, however later on, it becomes a problem. All in all, MOTHER is, and still will be my favorite in the series, despite it's flaws.
I think part of the problem also comes from the fact that the game itself doesn't explain its mechanics that well. We never got a manual. I practically never used spells until Mt. Itoi, because the games was easy enough without it and it never explained to me what the spells actually do.
Ok now I’ve played a bit of the game i can form my opinion on this topic: The game is surprisingly too easy… when I played it I would get giddy about a new enemy and then kill with Ninten in a single hit. Ninten also just carried everyone because they are all weak as frick meaning there’s no strategy as the rest of the party are just meat shields. I got so sick of it I just quit and moved on to something better like playing more splatoon. I wish that the enemies harder and more strategy needing and the party members would be useful too like making loyde not have bottle that do 10 yes a whopping 10 damage. I also played it after earthbound so it was surprising how the same man who made one of the best experiences I’ve had with a game was the same man who made one of the worse.
My rule of thumb for any JRPG is to fight every random battle to completion and only run away if you're in danger of dying (or if you can tell you're becoming overleveled.) If at that point the bosses still outmatch you or the random fights are a massive resource drain, then you know the game isn't balanced well enough. Granted it changes on a game by game basis, but the argument that people complaining about the grind are actually the ones running away too much is a common fallacy seen all across the JRPG genre.
Most J/RPGs can be completed without grinding though. That's like saying, "you don't like cheese? Well why are you eating that sandwich?" well, because it doesn't have cheese on it. I don't need to grind.
A tear down of orig4ma's comment because it bothers me so much I just have to. 1) No, I use Auto-Fight at every opportunity, it's still really slow because the only enemies you can really use Auto-Fight to grind on for extended periods are much weaker than you are, meaning you get less EXP, meaning it takes longer if you choose to grind that way, but hey at least it's less tedious somehow. 2) No, you have to grind as soon as you leave your house, every time I've tried to play this game, which is like 5 times, I've had to do that, then you have to grind for the graveyard (You can skip this one by just grind more around you house), then you should grind for the Zoo, you don't have to, but you'll have a really awful time if you don't. 3) As established, grinding takes forever. The last three sessions of Earthbound Zero that I've played have been nothing but grinding until my patience runs out, and I'm nowhere near done yet, because the enemies on the way to Ellay are just too much for my party as it is now to withstand while I try and find my way through that river maze between Youngtown and Ellay. 4) Intentional design ≠ Good design. 5) I can't talk on Mt. Itoi, as I established I'm not there yet, but if it is the way it's described in this comment, everyone in the Mother community has been lying about its difficulty for years non-stop. And no 4th D. Slip is not an excuse, if you try to do that all the time, not only will you be under leveled for Giegue, but you'll also run out of PP to use it long before you're done with everything you have to do there. I am playing the original difficulty first, but I think I'll probably choose 25th from now on, because even though early game grinding was as bad as I thought it's be, end game grinding makes up for it and then some, and if 25th remedies the excessive grinding altogether, I see no reason to not pick that for all my subsequent playthroughs.
Hey dude you should play earthbound beggings on the Nintendo switch online because you can like reverse time and go back before you start an encounter or you could decide to do something different im terrible at explaining things you should just try it out for yourself
I've only ever played the base game myself so after experiencing it once the Easy Ring certainly does look more appealing but I think that fans of the series who have played Earthbound and MOTHER 3 might be looking for a challenge and will probably want to play through the initial game atleast once just to feel a sense of achievement by saying they've done it. But if you really don't care about that stuff, the Easy Ring seems more just there to save you time by cutting the enemy encounters and doubling the experience, things you would have had to grind for anyway. I think it generally comes down to "how much do you value your time with the game and the original core experience" vs. "Is this an abuse of my time and is it worth the contents and story of the game when I have other things to do and games to play?"
I beat Mother 1 the other week. I got a mod that restored the Japanese names and to english, brought the tomato translation to the NES version, and uncensored the sprites, and I played through it all, without Easy mode. I'm fairly certain the romhack I used didn't change any difficulty, it claimed not to at least (Mother Restored fyi). And the game was really fun, all the mechanics and what you need to do is really intuitive. I would say it was even easier than Mother 2, which I just beat yesterday. Going to the Graveyard and the inventory management needed for the health items you'll need was the most difficult part I'd say, and one of the most fun parts of the game. I did not grind at all, at least in my view I didn't grind. It just so happened my playstyle made me overlevelled by the time I reached Duncan's factory. I explored every nook and cranny I could reach, fought every battle that didn't have death attacks (until the final zone so I could save PP), and warped to magicant whenever I got a new party member (to get items, which I was only short of money to get the charm I wanted for Lloyd in my playthrough) or whenever I was close to death, and trekked back to where I was originally without using repel spray. You can call that tedious, but that was a lot of fun for me, and I prefer games whose difficultly rewards my playstyle of combing things over, and finishing every battle worth fighting. It does seem to be how the game was designed, adjusting difficulty knowing young players wouldn't have a guide, and would explore, use the onyx hook, trek around, and I think that's really great. Easy mode, or the Easy ring, shouldn't have its name changed, because it does make the game easier. Less battles means less magic and item management. For it to be a "Balance" mod, it will need to actually rebalance the game to make up for the the less damage you are going to endure with less encounters. Perhaps giving the enemies more health, and increasing their damage would help... Personally, I wouldn't change the random encounters in Mother 1. I think what could make less annoying is disallowing an encounter one step (one tile) after finishing another. Whenever that happens, that feels like a blow to progress being made. I'm not sure how you could best balance that other than increase enemy power and health, and increasing rewards. Also, an option for instant wins would be nice. It does seem like encounter rates get lowered when you're high enough level for the area (I once walked from Ninten's House to Mother's Day with only one battle!). But by the time I got Ana, I was able to beat every single enemy battle in magicant on auto before the enemy attacked, at that point it's just a waste of 30 seconds. In that case, it would be nice to have instant wins turned off so we can try out Ana... I'm not sure if the 25th Anniversary romhack fixes these things, so I might just be suggesting things for no reason... I'm not a big fan of "making games accessible" difficulty wise, because I believe every human being is capable of adjusting themselves to the game they are playing. Mother 1, without easy mode, is still a baby's first RPG (for both the game designers and for the japanese children in '89), and the most difficult thing it asks is for the players to open their minds to new things, new mechanics, new characters, new moves, and new experiences. Dimensional Warp may be an "excuse" for the "whatever-decision" bad game design, but even if it is an excuse, it's still a new mechanic to help the player deal with enemies, and that's reflective of the message I was getting from the game and its story. At the end of the day, Easy rings and easy mode are going to save the player maybe 3-4 hours. I believe it's more important to have the game be longer and be closer to the original experience than to save a few hours. I was a pretty big proponent of Easy Mode, before I actually finished the game. Looking back on my previous attempts, Easy mode made the game a lot less engaging, and didn't make it worth beating. Of course, part of why I was able to finish Mother 1 finally was because it's what I needed in my life now. I needed a Mother 1 mod that fixed the outdated localization, and I needed the "extreme" enemy encounters. I won't deny that an Easy mode might be what someone else needs in their life, but I wouldn't be able to think they played the same game as me, and I don't think it's the definitive way to play it, much like the NSO version. I will say the run button ruins the feeling of the game. It's so magical seeing our heroes walk in time to the music, and that's lost with the run button. It's a good QOL change, sure, especially when we are trekking back to store items or coming back from Magicant. But seeing Ninten, Ana, and Lloyd walking through Advent Desert in time to the music was so magical.
It's not the game's difficulty, it's the occasional monotony, plus the luck. Too often you can find yourself doing the same thing over and over, and too often random luck determines how quickly you move forward. Plus you can, ya know, take the ring off.
I think the game should just be remade at this point. Not saying it isn't great, just that it could benefit from having the qol changes of Mother 2 and 3
Just play the game how you want to play it. If you want to play Super Mario Bros. 3 with an infinite invincibility cheat code, that's your choice. Stop caring so much about how other people play single player games.
2:37 "I shouldn't have to make the game easier; the game should be balanced. Challenge me and push me to my limits and make me feel rewarded when I succeed" Or something to that effect. Please, please, please play Dark Souls. This game as 1 difficulty. But you can approach it from so many different angles, and some playstyles are simply easier than others. Magic, especially in Demon's Souls, makes the game easier. Using a shield in Dark Souls, makes the game easier. You don't have to, but you can. The game is balanced around these options the player has. And that's it's form of difficulty. Having every build be the same challenge would be both impossible, reductive, and restrictve to the player. You don't have to make Dark souls easier, just like you don't have to make Mother easier. But you can. And some players want that. There's nothing wrong with using soul arrow, and there's nothing wrong with using your fists at soul level 1, either.
Feels like a variant of the "Do difficulty options ruin games" debate They don't. They're optional. Use them if you want, don't use them if you don't want. Options are called Options because they're Optional. Are game devs required to give difficulty options like the easy ring, or even just modes called "easy mode"? no, absolutely not. But if they do, its up to the player whether or not to use them. My favorite part of this argument is how one-sided everyone is. They're either 100% against things like the easy ring, or think every game should have them. This black-and-white approach gets you nothing but arguments. Best to just take a game as it is; if it has options, they're yours to play with. if not, then thats just how the game was designed, either by oversight or because its from a different time when such things weren't as common. tl;dr options are there to be used, and devs can put them there if they want.
I wholly agree with most of what you have to say, but on the point of challenge being what defines video games: what about Undertale? Sure, the challenge exists, but it's not actually the reason people play it! Like, the mechanic that fundamentally sets it apart from most other games, the option to spare your enemies... considering the fact that for three out of the four fights that could be considered a "final boss", the actual mechanical impact of the choices you've made up to that point is completely non-existent (two of them are locked to a specific route and you therefore must have made very specific choices, one of them sets all your stats to fixed values and doesn't even let you access your inventory), it seems reasonable to conclude that it is the narrative impact that actually makes your choices significant. Or, what about sandbox games? Creative mode in Minecraft, physics simulators, the "horribly mutilate this virtual creature" genre of flash games -- how many of these truly have challenge, even by your expanded definition? Hell, visual novels exist! Some of them have like actual mechanics and stuff, sure, but an equal amount are essentially just a picture book on your computer! One of my own personal favorite games is a visual novel where you make precisely two choices per chapter, and making the wrong one sends you instantly to a Bad End. By definition, none of those choices has any real value, yet me being the one making them had enough psychological impact that, when the final choice ended up being between "do something awful" and "turn off the game", I could not bring myself to watch a video of the ending. Which, speaking of which, on the "why do you feel disconnected from a movie" point: why does reader-insert fanfiction exist? No matter who reads it, the words won't change. The only thing you as the actual physical person reading it can influence is how fast you read. Like a visual novel, except it doesn't even pretend to be a game! Except, "you" are there. Even in a medium where the sort of challenge we're talking about is physically impossible, "you" being the one to do things evidently enhances the experience enough (at least for some people) that there are *two hundred thousand* works tagged as "Reader" on Archive of Our Own. Challenge is one tool you can use to create a particular sort of experience. Skillfully handled and wielded with purpose, it can absolutely add a lot, but defining the entire art form by this one thing just seems awfully reductive.
Undertale is a great example of my points honestly, oftentimes sparing enemies is more difficult than just killing them! Story, themes, and gameplay are all intertwined to create the experience, that's what makes its great! :) Sandbox games let you create your own goals, which often involves building the best structure you can think of. Physics simulators in my opinion aren't really "games," but just that, simulators. The Interactive Buddy-type games again, give you a specific goal, hurt the virtual creature! It's oftentimes how you earn currency to get new things to hurt them with. Visual novels' challenge comes form trying to make the choices to achieve the best outcome. However, I'd argue ones that don't include choices are more so just novels on a screen, more or less. I wasn't attempting to reduce video games down to only being defined by challenge, but rather explain why engaging gameplay (often achieved through challenge) is important, and why it makes a game go from decent to great. :) As for the films point, I''m just saying that gameplay is an integral part to what differentiates video games from other art forms.
@@MonkeyNess A goal isn’t necessarily a challenge, though; beating up the Interactive Buddy isn’t a function of difficulty, it’s a function of how much time you’re putting in. Put another way, it’s grinding. But people still find it fun in the same way that people often find grinding fun. It’s understandable to define sandboxes and simulators as something other than “games” in a strict sense. But… they still have gameplay. They still provide fun without any stated challenge or goal, irregardless of if you make your own. They still offer meaningful choices. If someone were to make a sandbox with a structure like that of an Earthbound-like RPG, that could very much be a fun experience too, yes?
The grinding in EB: Zero is part and parcel what you get with NES RPGs, and a result of hardware limitations. How do you do a grand adventure in 40KB (I know it's an exaggeration, Mother 1 was on a 384KB cart)? I remember having an RPG on DOS that came with a book, and the game referred you to a passage in the book for the story...to save disk space, and the floppy it was on was a 700K floppy. The majority of NES RPGs have been remade and rebalanced, but Mother 1 is still trapped on NES. The Easy Ring band-aids the grinding, but doesn't solve it.
I understand that guys point about movies and games but it doesn't change the fact that a game should be balanced if at all possible, sure you can enjoy a game for it's story and characters but isn't it nice to also have a fun and decently challenging game aswell? You can have your cake and eat it too in these situations yet so many people are content with a boring game with an interesting skin on top of it.
Проходила игру в первый раз без Easy Ring. Тоже думаю, что он имеет право на существование, ибо вряд ли абсолютно любой новичок захочет проводить основную часть игры за прокачкой, а не прохождением сюжетки. Да и...разве не игрок должен сам решать, какую версию Earthbound Zero ему проходить? Если он захочет прочувствовать всю сложность первой игры и готов вытерпеть бесконечную прокачку, он поиграет в обычный Earthbound Zero, если же нет - он выберет Easy Ring. Говорите что угодно, но дайте человеку выбрать самому (лично я проходила оригинальный Earthbound Zero, и это был тот ещё пиздец. Но он того стоил)
Я только потом понял что easy ring не было в оригинале. Без прохождения было тяжело, умирать много раз до зоопарка. Даже не хочу представлять как играеться оригинал
@@Garchomp47 играется...весело. У меня было достаточно свободного времени для прокачки. Насчёт смертей до зоопарка понимаю. Я частенько дохла от хиппи. Из-за них пришлось торчать в подвале дома Нинтена и бить крыс, пока я не начну выносить их с одного-двух ударов
The problem with the "challenge" discussion is that these videos present it as being a rule: a No True Scotsman fallacy. "Animal Crossing has challenge because it puts pressure on you to motivate you and keep you playing the game." But... Animal Crossing does not do this. There's a reason so many non-gamers play, and it's because you can have a perfectly enjoyable AC experience by starting the game and wandering around to enjoy the atmosphere, maybe leaving a nice message for another player. This is pretty much why they made it so multiple players can share the same village - to remove the pressure of village upkeep entirely. You could say that this is possible to do this sort of thing in, say, Mother 3 if you wanted, but you're not really playing it because you have to engage in challenge to progress the game. That's true, but AC doesn't expect "progress". These players are interacting with the game as intended, while ignoring optional challenges. They receive the intrinsic reward of interacting and experiencing the world, where a movie or book is not being experienced if the audience doesn't progress through the work. To prove my point here, if you recorded this kind of aimless, unchallenged gameplay, and watched it back later - would you be replaying the game, or were you never playing the game? If you weren't playing the game, what were you doing? There are decades of writing on what makes a game different to a movie, how the player inhabits a character, and how they inhabit a customised avatar, and how the game can interactive differently with the player and with the player character. There's no simple dilemmas with this subject. Also, as a thought experiment. Yume Nikki, as originally released, did not have any " challenge ". You wandered about and looked at stuff. You could interact with stuff, find ways to interact with various objects, etc, but there was no reason to explore besides the intrinsic desire to explore. The developer eventually added an ending criteria, but they didn't intend to do that at first. If games require challenge... were the first versions of Yume Nikki a movie? A comic? Did it not have rewarding gameplay? I would say no to all of these, that the point is to experience the world and the goal is superfluous. Let me know what you think. PS: someone needs to tell that chump that fleeing is an intended mechanic
It's not a No True Scotsman fallacy at all, you're just applying my answer for one example as a catch all. Animal Crossing still completely works as an example. My point wasn't that it applies pressure to keep you playing the game, but motivates you to keep doing things within the game, always giving the player something to do. Something being easier to put down than another does not equal no challenge. Objectively, Animal Crossing games have loads of challenge, it's just to the player's discretion which they seek out, effectively letting the player design their own experience. Definitions are also getting confused here, you can very much be playing a game without progressing. Just because someone say chooses to replay the same level of a game over and over doesn't mean they're not playing the game. As for Yume Nikki, I again disagree. The challenge in that case would be finding the correct path through the experience, as the game is layed out in a way to encourage exploring the world to find your way forward.
@@MonkeyNess There is no correct path in Yume Nikki. Objectively. It was never the intent to push the player to act in any particular way in the game. You could collect effects, but most of them don't really do anything. The point is just to explore. The players demanded a "challenge" aspect, so they added an item collection to get an ending. You can do that more or less quickly or efficiently, so there's an element of challenge to that objective. However, it's far more challenging to engage with the work as it was originally created: as expressionism. Feeling the game and thinking the game, rather than trying to plan a path through or execute anything skillfully. I won't spoil the ending, but I interpret it as a criticism of the idea that the "challenge" needs to be accomplished at all.
If there truly is no objective in terms of achieving anything, I question if it can even be considered a "game" at that point. In its form with an ending to reach, and an end to get to, sounds a lot like something with a form of challenge to me, even if it's lax on the effort demanded to achieve them. When I say without an objective I "question if it's even a game," I don't mean that in any condescending way. I would just consider it another type of art entirely, more akin to a walking simulator. Art in its own right, but separate from video games.
@@MonkeyNess Funny you mention "walking simulator", because that genre is one of the reasons that the conversation is basically over these days - not that there's only one opinion, but because nobody feels the need to seriously debate it. The game Gone Home is right on the edge of what one could consider to have a challenge. The story is that you are a specific person returning home to an empty house and you piece the story together by pawing through your family's stuff. The main challenge is figuring out what's going on beyond where a note might tell you to look - a narrative challenge more than a technical one. Yume Nikki doesn't feel the need to lead the player around, but it works in the same way: encouraging the player to wander and poke and prod, with the fail state being boredom (I got bored real quickly ngl) and the win state resulting in the intrinsic reward from discovering something interesting first-hand. In other words, you must **play** in it to experience it. There are many playful art installations, of course, but art that demands the audience personify a character to experience the art are games! Alternate reality games, tabletop roleplay games, LARPing... They're all playful to some degree, just a bit more indirect than a video game. PS: Because of an extremely petty and unrelated aversion to Gone Home containing very straightforward feminist, queer themes, it was often derided as "not a real game", as a walking simulator. Critics were mixed to positive, but even serious reviewers who didn't much like it still tended to think that was probably too far to say it wasn't a game at all. As a result, normal people tried to veer away from using that kind of rhetoric derisively (same as how you have to clarify that it wasn't intended as an insult). The problem basically faded away because the media language of "interactive art" and "games" are so close that the line is totally blurry, and nobody being serious wanted to risk getting a few thousand assholes turning it into a culture war. Sorry if this one's a bit too rambly, I'm tired lol
I’m using the restore points with NSO and it still feels too hard. I’m stuck in that factory without Lloyd, and the only reason I haven’t died several times is because I abuse the items to change the RNG so I don’t have to fight Dr. Distorto and an Old Robot who nearly instakill me while I miss. Also I am just lost in the factory while getting bombarded by encounters. I feel like I would like this game a lot more if the areas were more varied so I knew where I was (I understand this was because of hardware limitations) and if there weren’t a bunch of encounters (which the easy ring fixes but I have been playing on NSO). I still like the game, but the beginning just feels tedious. Especially since I’m probably so far away from getting Teddy… :( Also it was probably a bad idea to play the Mother series in reverse order, since the combat feels so much worse than Earthbound and Mother 3, obviously.
Honestly, fuck grinding. GTA Online showed me just how terrible that shit is. Challenge should be a test of knowledge, skill, or reflexes. Not a test of patience.
As a fan of 8bit RPGs, I don't think that Mother had too much grinding. :) Dragon Warrior 2-3 and Final Fantasy 3 were way worse. The only 8bit JRPG where you don't need to grind was (maybe) Silva Saga.
Glad you enjoyed it and weren't bothered, but most players are likely not regular NES RPG players, and I don't necessarily think just because the grinding isn't as bad as other games that makes it better. Again, glad you enjoyed it though :)
An important thing I didn't touch on in this video that I think is worth mentioning:
I am not saying you shouldn't play the game without the Easy Ring. I just see no issue with a player finding the game more enjoyable by using it.
In fact, I would advocate for playing without it, as I said in my last video, that's the most authentic experience you can have with it.
Just want it to be clear that I'm not arguing everyone should or has to use the Easy Ring.
First 🥇! First like and reply 🥳!
Oh definitely, I don't get why people are trying to prove you wrong when all you're saying is that people are allowed to use the easy ring and reasons as to why they would, people should play the way they want to play and there's nothing wrong with that, maybe they just dont have the time to grind for long periods or maybe they want to move on instead of battling an enemy every few steps and as much as I love the original game, it has flaws which turn people away and problems which really bring it down and the easy ring is an answer for the problems that people have and can greatly benefit the experience but if they want to experience it as authentically as possible and can work around the issues then go with the original game, I don't see an issue there.
You can, ya know, just take the ring off whenever you want. It's not like it fuses itself to a character's finger.
@@mccloaker Exactly!
Yeah, for some (mostly veterans) who have mastered the game and don't really mind the grinding too much, You can always just ignore it. For others, it really helps the game be enjoyable. I tried Mother 1 out a few months back and put it down very early because I just wasn't having fun. I love the Mother series, but even then I'm not putting time into a game that actively frustrates me. Now, thanks to your video, I might try it again, this time with a version that has the easy ring, because grinding isn't my thing. (Too bad there isn't a better encounter mechanic. I get there were hardware limitations, but damn is the game annoying to play with those stupid encounters every five seconds.)
"The game isn't hard. I just grinded." -People who didn't use the Easy Ring
i beat the game at bare minimum ninten on nso without easy ring
legit rng manipulation was the only way i got through (i figured it out on my complete own)
what was worse was that i had to constantly save state and close the app to watch a guide because my PC wasn't working during the time
@@marsybarz Minimum runs in RPGs sounds completely wild to me. Even with external tools like save states, those types of runs are almost always completely unfair.
Also wouldn't Easy Ring defeat the purpose of a minimum run?
I played the fan translated port of mother 1 a couple years ago (the version without an easy ring) and the only part I remember being a pain was directly outside of Nintens house (which in all fairness is not a good introduction to a game- and has definitely suffered from being an old game) but that's the part that I thought was grindy because you need to level up first before being able to get to the first area. However I don't think I grinded from there on- I just came across random encounters as I explored and it may be rose tinted glasses but it's one of my favorite gaming memories which is jarring since I'm not at all fond of RPGs or grinding. I also beat gigyas very under-leveled but it took a lot of tries to even figure out how I was supposed to because I'm stupid.
If it were called the "XP Ring" instead of the "Easy Ring", it would be considered an essential item and you'd be considered a fool to not use it.
Eaay ring?
@@keithflippers4429 it was a typo.
My most humble of apologies for upsetting you.
@@elvispressplay7735 I'm not upset...
@@keithflippers4429 u seem upset
@@Ken-ru6or by asking a question?
Having a heart attack? Well, make sure to use your health properly!
Even as someone who's first RPG was the very grindy dragon warrior on NES, I would still advocate for the easy ring in this game if you feel like it. Grinding just isn't fun to me, but it's not really my job to dictate how people experience a single player game regardless. At the end of the day, it's simply an option that you're not forced to use, so I like it
As someone who plays Runescape, just take the easy ring or play the 25th Anniversary romhack.
Dragon Quest I is an interesting example because every remake of it improved the initial Exp gain amongst other balance.
So, there's already an "authentic" game experience that is arguably more enjoyable than the original available.
Most these people really went “Nope, you are nitpicking and biased, I win, bye bye”
The major problem with EarthBound Beginnings is whenever you get a new party member except for Teddy. They all start at Level 1, requiring you to go back to Magicant to get the party members up to the levels of the enemies in the next area. This is especially bad with the beginning of the game, as the optimal way to even get to Podunk is to grind on the rats in the basement since two of the enemies that can spawn outside are too strong for Ninten to beat at Level 2.
The difficulty curve is pretty wonky. It starts hard, then the whole game until Mt Itoi can easily be beaten with auto battle. (outside of bosses, maybe)
I personally am a believer that grinding, especially on this modern age, shouldn’t stick out. Games nowadays now have to be constructed where the game around you grows with you on an even pace. Yes, I love being challenged but not to the point to make me feel overwhelmed. As an adult, it’s really difficult to play games on its completion because of how busy we become, and we don’t have time to do stuff like grinding.
While I don’t personally mind grind on MOTHER 1, cause I love the game so much, I can definitely see people being frustrated to just spend an hour on Magicant trying to grind Lloyd and Ana to even levels to your Ninten.
At the end of the day, people can choose how they play and shouldn’t be berated about it, cause in the end, we love the game for many reasons.
That’s what’s important.
My main gripe with EB0 is RNG since it's just plain luck having certain enemies not using stone origin, paralysis or even them using PK BEAM Y on the only Party member without a Franklin badge
Yeah, I just ran from all the enemies in the final area. That stuff was annoying.
It's the issue with many of those older games. Phantasy Star comes to mind when some enemies in the starting area can destroy you at low level.
Difficulty makes you value more your surroundings and what you're capable off.
And this applies outside videogames too
I just beat Earthbound Beginnings on switch a month ago, and I pretty much fought every battle, and still ended up underleveled. I didn't want to use any save states, and I didn't know about how you're supposed to grind with EVE and Teddy, and got to gigue around level... 25-30 i think? I had to go back up that stupid mountain like 20 times just to get to Gigue, and the four times I fought him were PAINFUL man. At least until I realized that PSI shield Beta and Defense up beta stacked, and spamming the heal all allies thing. That made the fight just BARELY winnable.
Addendum: It took me about a week to beat the game. I didn't use a guide, and it took me FOREVER to get through some of the different dungeons or to figure out where the fuck I was supposed to go. I was really into it, though, and I had a lot of fun! I played for several hours each day, but MAN did the encounters get old.
it took me a month and i didnt know teddy would go or eve so 💀
I was gonna ask how you even got to Geigue at that low of a level then I saw you had to reclimb the mountain 20 times... yikes. that being said, I am around level 33ish for Ninten with a little grinding and I am terrified atm to let EVE explode because IDK how I am going to handle shit like 4 LastStarmen or worse going up.
@@jeremyabbott4537 I found out near the end that, if you REALLY don't want to deal with those guys, you don't get encounters during teleport. It only works in some areas where its short enough to hit a wall, but not too short, and the cost of failure is getting your ass sent ALLLLLL the way back to the start. This also happened a few times :(
@@marsybarz i didnt either. EVE was whatever, but I still get nightmares about poor, sweet teddy dying.
I ended up using save states in the final battle. I was constantly one sing shy of beating him it just came down to luck if I survived his attack or not. So I simply reloaded until luck was on my side.
I feel like the biggest problem with MOTHER's base difficulty is its nature as pretty specifically being a parody/deconstruction of the first two or three games in the Dragon Quest series, which do have a problem with balancing and being very grind heavy. The difficulty of the game was very much a product of its time and its influences, regardless of Itoi going "whatever" at the balancing in some of the areas. With that in mind, the Easy Ring is a perfectly suitable option for anyone that wants to play MOTHER without having to play it like an early JRPG.
I largely agree, but I'm not sure the balancing issues are intentionally meant to satirize Dragon Quest. If it is...I say that's still a strike against it. If that's the case and it's an artistic decision, I respect it, but still think it's a choice that ends up hurting the experience.
@@MonkeyNess Oh no sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the balancing issues are intentional, more that they come as a side effect of utilizing Dragon Quest as inspiration in general. I actually agree that it is a strike against the game, seeing as new and emerging franchises within and offshoots of the genre were already working on mitigating these same grinding and balancing issues.
The ring just makes this game fair and more fun
Instead of "challenge" I think what you mean is "stakes." Games can be easy with stakes.
Great point honestly, some of my arguments could definitely benefit more from that framing.
@@MonkeyNess Honestly I feel like people are just being pedantic. It's easy enough to understand what you meant without wording it that way lol
Yeah his animal crossing example doesn't make much sense using the normal definition of "challenging". But I don't think it holds up in regard to stakes either. In my opinion, AC is about the vibes. Fishing and all that other gamey stuff isn't very important (or fun).
@@guy-sl3kr Nonetheless a major part of the game that the player is intended to participate in!
@@MonkeyNess That is true, but new horizons is so much lonelier than the rest of the franchise that none of that other stuff makes up for it ):
I like how you read "RPG games" as role playing games games, that's like saying "as asap as possible"
Didn’t want to misquote anybody!
Okay, but goat simulator you can't lose, no thing to push you forward, mid graphics, and kinda good music, yet its fun and replayable, basically breaking your argument in the first part
Goat Simulator has both objectives and a points system.
@@MonkeyNess oh yeah, I forgot
Forget anything I had just said
I think the Easy Ring is one of the only things that makes the original Mother bearable
Personally I think the biggest issue is that, due to it being an NES game, lots of people will defend the questionable design choices and results of a rushed development as the devs, "not holding your hand." Personally I wish there were a remake for Mother 1 that brought it to the same level of quality as Mother 2 and 3.
Many people like myself have a hard time returning to NES Metroid as many of the features and series standards had not been laid out there and I feel a remake like Zero Mission was really necessary to be able to experience Samus' first outing.
You should check out Mother encore
Mother one is the best game in the trilogy because it has Teddy in it…
Shake my hand, I win you can’t outsmart me
Teddy is proof that the stars that burn the brightest, burn out the quickest. If only a giant robot didn't come out of nowhere and step on him, and then get blasted off a mountain by a grey child.
If only
Thank you for bringing up the negative stigma associated with easy games. I don't see why people correlate easy=bad. My favorite video game series of all time is Kirby and people give those games a bad rap just because they are on the easier side. And as someone who hates grinding, I know that if I played Mother 1 without the Easy Ring my enjoyment of the game would be much less. Sorry for the rant, but this channel is great and you've earned my sub
Thank you! And Welcome to the world of MONKEY.
Did you just call Kirby easy? Man has clearly not tried the true arena
@@DayzeeHeartwin I figured I probably shouldn't mention the harder aspects of Kirby because my comment was already too long. I was mainly referring to the base-game content, but yeah Kirby games do get extremely difficult in the postgame and if you want to get 100% completion. Still have yet to beat Kirby Planet Robobot's True Arena and my save file sits at 99% to this day :')
I never used the easy ring, because I played the Wii U version, but I’m glad the easy ring exists
the first game went in my little "this is such a dumpster fire, i love it so much" box along with pokemon red and sonic 06. games that are actually painful to play at times or are really broken but i love them anyway because they're still fun and have great things in them
I don’t play with the easy ring, but I agree that it’s a good thing if it gets more people playing EB 0
Big agree from me, I think it's always better to be inclusive than exclusive.
When I was younger I hated grinding and thought it was wasting the limited playtime I had, but over time I started to find it relaxing and appreciate how much more rewarding it makes the eventual goal.
I really don't like having to metagame though. If a game requires me to take actions that the characters have no reason to take within the world's logic, then I lose interest. Telling me I need to intentionally kill off party members or fail teleports makes it seem like a really badly designed game, which I know Mother is not.
hmmm... i can see both sides
earthbound zero was the second mother game i played (after mother 3) on nintendo switch online. for me it was perfectly managable but only because i took time to grind for the proper equipment for the entire party in magicant which took a LOT of time, and i can see why people don't want to do that. it's just a matter of preference, isn't it?
also the last part is a BlTCH but stocking up on lifeup creams and ONLY using psi to heal (use psi block on the cerebrum and then steal PP from them when you run out) makes giygas a lot more managable. but again that takes a lot of time
As you said in the original video, it's more about balance than difficulty. If I have to halt the game's progression at every major point of the game, it's not challenging.
In fact, it's.. exactly the opposite of that. I am losing brain cells doing a repetitive action instead of having to think.
That is actually another issue I tend to get with grinding personally : overcorrection. It's so mindless it's easy to just go too far in the other direction.
Exactly!
Gonna be honest, Something about this video feels off, and I am not sure if I can put my finger on it
It's definitely more biting than a lot of my other stuff, had a lot to say that I felt strongly about.
“Magicant is the first area to grind” Bruh, there’s legit a Final Fantasy style exploit where you can take Pippi outside the gate of the Zoo to fight Zoo enemies with her and grind there to become Op. Gorillas and Crocodiles give more XP than most magicant enemies, and they’re faster to beat anyway
I think grinding on RPGs is fun, it's a zen for me and as a kid with few games turning a 10 hour games into a 100 hour games... but that being said there is no reason to keep a game grind heavy and disrespect someone's time who doesn't have the time to grind, that is why a OPTION like a "easy ring" is great and fills both types of situations
I'm just going to flip the table on the whole argument entirely. Considering grinding a form of "difficulty" or "challenge" misunderstands what "difficulty" is. "Difficulty" is in skill and effort, it's the elements of understanding and execution required for practical progress based on the restraints set by the game, literally one of the 3 pillars that make something a "game" rather than an "activity". Grind is simply wasting the player's time executing an identical task to one they've already mastered, again and again.
I agree.
Ah yes because using psi to attack the final boss in earthbound zero will definitely do something meaningful and definitely not be a waste of time
Edit: I am making a joke about psi or earthbound zero's version of magic only being useful against the final boss for healing and lifeup
I had my first playthrough of earthbound beginnings this year. I didn’t have much of an issue with difficulty until mount itoi gave me trouble. Still grinded alot more than I was used to. I feel like the easy ring makes the game faster and less of a pain to play. It’s up to the person though how they want to play the game though.
I like how even the speedruns grind, mostly with EVE.
It's important to consider developers' mindsets back in 1989, though. Sure, they often made games harder to last longer. But they also weren't expecting someone to play it 30 years later with prior knowledge and an Internet guide telling them where to go next. M1 has a giant open world for an NES game, and a kid wandering around trying to figure out what to do will naturally get buffed up from all the encounters. If you make a beeline straight to the graveyard, you're skipping what could be hours of intended gameplay.
tbf grinding in a speedrun doesnt sound too weird situationally
People acting as if the years of knowledge from someone who has played this before doesn't make the game way easier. New players should be able to play at whatever difficulty ESPECIALLY in an rpg where grinding means you have to pause the entire story until you're done. I feel it breaks the flow of the entire game.
7:48 mom, I appeared on tv
Also I used the word complete /beat because by that time you experience all if not most the charms that mother 1 has to offer. I do believe that changing the difficult makes the players having too much of a different experience, that late 80s difficult is in my opinion a core element of the game even if not intentional, that why I much preffer the states mechanic rather than a difficulty switch mechanic. Just to add to the conversation
what is a states mechanic
@@dmas7749 have you ever played on a emulator? It let you save states of your game at any point its outside the save system inside the game. It helps when you are in a tough position rewind to a early state
@@reviewspiteras i thought you meant like states like united states, tired af when i made that comment
thanks for the clarification regardless
i like grinding in games where it goes to a specific skill instead of your over all level and all skills
I feel like most people who complain about using the Easy Ring haven't even played the game.
Honestly mother 1 no matter how much i enjoy, i can not imagine playing the game without the ring. Like wow is the encounters a lot, and i was playing the gba version, which has reduced encounter rates i believe
All you need to know to be good at Mother 1 is if it’s clear and yellow you’ve got juice there fellow. If it’s tangy and brown you’re in cider town.
I first played beginning on wiiU, and it was hell. But i knew what I was getting into. I was told that Mt. Itoi would be a hellish barrage of constant battles, and I admit, it was hell. I had to do constant Teleport manips to get around. But players should play how they want. If you want a challenge, thats great, I prefer a challenge too. But if your just starting, then play the “easy mode”.
But if a game is hard in a “challenging” way, not a cheap death way (And you know what your getting into) thats the creators vision, and i recommend playing the game the way the creator envisioned.
Also i really agree with your points, mother1 was not perfect, far from it. The gameplay was faulty, but the story was what drove me to finish it. Weather you exploit the game or play how it how the devs thought you would, its had a long lasting impact on a lot of people that still reminisce about the game. From people who just found it, to those people who played it from emulation years back, it left us a community of fans and definitely great discussions.
Keep up the quality content!
The one thing I take away from this video is that this damn community really do be at each others' throats over an optional difficulty change (not you)
Alas this is something not everyone's gonna agree with, but hey as Itoi said, "whatever", lol
Exactly why I ended the video with it!
The way I see it, the Easy Ring has its place. It's like the exp share in the older Pokémon games. You don't need to pick it up, but it does make the games easier by reducing the amount of time grinding. If it makes things more convenient, but isn't mandatory to pick up, then I don't really see the problem. It changes nothing besides what you think it changes. Don't like it? Don't pick it up, you have that option. it isn't even the same argument in Pokémon games where you could toggle the exp share off because there it gets forced on you, while this is just in a present, right? You don't need to pick it up, do you? It's there for players who need it, but if you don't need it then fine. It makes the game more accessible for everyone without forcing any difficulty away for those who don't want things to be made less difficult.
I think the best way a game deincentivized grinding was Paper Mario. the star point system made it so 100 points was always a level up, and how it worked was every enemy had a level in the files, and the amount of star points gained was equal to the difference between the enemy and Mario's level, divided by 2 (correct me if I'm wrong about that). if Mario was at an equal or higher level than an enemy, it would give no star points. if the enemy was much stronger than Mario, it would give a lot more star points and you'd level faster. it made it so that you're basically always on par with the enemies and grinding was basically impossible.
i got roasted
Hey, you're just a person with a view, just like me. I'm very glad you left your other comments, and hope you continue sharing your thoughts, even if you disagree. I hope this didn't feel like bullying, any and all type of "angry ranting" moments are done purely for comedic effect.
@@MonkeyNess I think I misinterpreted your view as saying that challenge is the ONLY appeal in gaming, and I felt a little invalidated because I tend to actively avoid challenging games and focus on characters. People dunk on me enough about not being a 'real gamer' because I don't like hard games, so I got a little butthurt. Keep doin' whatcha doin', can't wait to see this channel grow
@@SantaFeSuperChief1 Screw those people, you should enjoy the games you’re playing (story, world, gameplay, challenge, otherwise), you keep doing you.
I don't have too much critical input in this topic, I just love listening to your takes on stuff like this. Thank you, sworn protector of the Easy Ring: MonkeyNess
Thank you Gloompod, video game teeth content enjoyer.
@@MonkeyNess 🥺👉👈 you remembered me... so honoured
@@Gloompod How could I ever forget? ❤️
Heres the thing, in a single player game, it doesn't matter what exactly you do to your game.
If you want to play it exactly as it was released the first time, go ahead.
If you want to use save states in order to get past a difficult part, go ahead.
If you want to use cheats to get past a difficult part, go ahead
if you want to cheat or hack your game to just mess around, go ahead.
It is your game and you play it the way you want to.
Some people may say that "The easy ring is not the way the game was MEANT to be played". It can be discussed if it's original difficulty was the way it was MEANT to be played either, but that isn't really relevant.
It doesn't really matter if you're playing it the way it was meant to be played, I think it more matters on if you played it in the way that you enjoyed it, if that means making the game easier, then go ahead. In some games, you are able to tone the difficulty to your liking, your able to turn on invincibility in order to get past a section. I think that is really cool. Those who want to use those options can use them and those who don't want to use those options don't have to use them.
I think the issue arises when it comes to discussing the game.
For example, my friend was playing Pokemon Sword and then complained that the game was too easy, which I will agree it is. But the reason it was easy for him was because he grinded all of his pokemon to lvl 70 before the first gym (basically the first boss who has like lvl 10 - 15 pokemon at max for context) (and the champion (the final boss) has like lvl 60s, maybe a 70 if I'm remembering correctly). Of course the game would be easy for him, because he grinded his pokemon higher than any other enemy in the game. So in this case, I would say that it is invalid for him to say that the game is easy because his team was higher than any enemy in the game for it to even be a challenge.
Now, for the context of the Easy Ring. I think you can still have a discussion about the game. This is coming from someone who has never played Mother 1. But I feel like there can be at least similar sections that people can relate on with or without the easy ring. In addition, you can still talk about sections that were hard for you. Yes, the game will be easier with the easy ring, but I don't think that makes the game invalid. The Mother 1 and Pokemon situations seem similar, but they are different.
The easy ring can still make the game difficult (especially to new players), and the game can still be fun. The game isn't suddenly a cake walk just with the ring. And as you mentioned in the previous video, you lose out on other equipment that may have been better because of this ring.
With the Pokemon example, that was intentional grinding to the point where no enemy was a threat and then complaining that the game was too easy.
I think the easy ring only gets to this points if you understand the game and get it. And that is after a first playthrough.
And even with the Pokemon example, my friend may not be able to talk about the difficulty. But he can still talk about how he may not like the story, or the character designs. And similar to Mother.
Even if you think that the Easy Ring destroys all difficulty to where they can't talk about the game being too easy. Well there are other aspects that they can talk about the game outside of just the difficulty.
With the easy ring, there will be differences between having it and not having it. But that's okay. Just because you don't want to use something doesn't mean that everyone else is stupid for it. Just because you don't have to make the game easier doesn't mean that everyone else is a baby because they have to be.
Because let's be honest here. None of us could beat Mother without a Moon Gravity cheat.
Now, while I agree with your opinion,
I do have one issue.
Losing in a game dosen't make me want to try again. It makes me want to stop playing. When I get frustrated with a game, I just say to myself
"If it's not fun, why bother?"
I think you just need to play games that are more adjusted to your skill level, or keep trying :)
Idk dude I beat it on NSO last week and I just spammed Ana's PSI Lifeup Omega, and I gave her pretty much all the PSI Stones to her. When I had Teddy and EVE I grinded.
I touch on points like this in the video.
i beat it on NSO not knowing i'd lose teddy or eve
and i went DOWN the mountain with eve instead of UP like a literal dumbass
This is a pretty good follow up video from the first one. When I watched the first one, (and to further extent, multiple M1 videos) I was genuinely shocked by how many people say the easy ring and modifying the game to have less encounter rates and stuff of the sorts ruins the game, and shouldn't be the way to play it. I love playing rpg's and enjoy some hard challenging ones, honestly, grinding and growing stonger is fun for me, but even then, M1 is too much. It's balancing it wack, and grinding after level 20 is pain since it starts to take so long, even at Mt. Itoi. Having options to leviate that and make it more enjoyable for others is a good thing. There's nothing wrong with wanting an easier experience for games. I used the rewind function that the NES Switch app gives you, and that made M1 so much more enjoyable for me. Because of it, I could see myself going back to the game just as I would with the other 2 games
One of my favorite things about difficulty in games better is honestly *Options.*
There ain't no real reason to dock easier options because they "ruin the game." Some people might not find that difficulty level to be "fun", or if it ruins the experience or not. People have different tolerances on what level of difficulty they can handle, and I can enjoy that, especially being a person who doesn't like grinding.
I think one of my favorite examples in terms of difficulty is honestly Pokemon, and its EXP Share. Earlier games had it as a catch up mechanic for lower leveled Pokemon without having to use them, which is always nice to have, but generations 6-7 are always interesting to me in terms of choosing difficulty. The EXP share in those generations actually spread experience throughout all of your Pokemon, and give an extra boost in experience, which definitely makes the game much easier, but you can turn it off anytime to make the game generally harder, where you can avoid fights and be severely underleveled before getting to places if you're really good at the games, or you can just choose to play the game with that EXP share, and have a much easier time with the Pokemon you want.
I like that choice of difficulty options in the game, and I feel the Easy ring does that same type of thing as well, but on a harder scale. If you're familiar with Earthbound mechanics, or is really well versed in the JRPG genre, you can avoid the use of the Easy Ring to provide a challenge, but if you aren't as confident, or you don't want to waste your time grinding or learning the proper starts for grinding and just want to play the game, you can do that as well with the Easy Ring. It's nice. Options are nice.
O boy, duz system shock hav opshunz, yoo can make roomz devoid uv lyf, entyrlee filld tu the brim, chooz onlee roubots, ounlee monsterz, yoo can eeven make the PUZZLZ eezeeur!
now if only you didnt need a tank license to play it. the 1 opshun ya kant chaenj.
Exp share makes no difference to me because I always powerlevel one really strong Pokémon then let them breeze through the game, using my other 5 members as revive pylons. Actually having a balanced team did encourage me to take more risks but you better believe my status-immune swords dance Leafeon was both going to move first, crit, and then restore all its health the next turn.
I honestly do see where Dragoon is coming from with that argument. It may not apply to the criticisms of EBB specifically, but I've seen it SO many times in reviews of other RPGs. Namely the Dragon Quest or Etrian Odyssey series.
Grinding can and absolutely has been made a fun part of the gameplay loop in a lot of games, especially more modern ones. Take The World Ends With You for example. That game allows you to increase the difficulty of combat on yourself at any time, but in exchange drastically boosts the rewards you get from enemies. This may only work in an action game like that, but it still makes the experience incredibly fun and rewarding regardless.
I see the complaint very often that "Grinding is not real difficulty or engaging gameplay" which I just don't think is correct. Like when Pokemon introduced the upgraded EXP Share and then subsequently made it non-optional in gen 8. I saw a lot of people saying that there was nothing wrong with that, and that all it did was eliminate unnecessary grinding, but what they fail to realize is the difficulty curve of the game was not adjusted to compensate, making it one of the easiest games in the series, with not much you can really do to change that. This, to me, runs counter to the loop that makes RPGs fun in the first place. A loop that I believe Legends Arceus nailed just by virtue of the enhanced freedom and real challenging bosses.
And then you have more recent games like Xenoblade, where the amount of options you're given for combat is so immense that you're bound to find some strategy that works for any encounter you're having trouble on, while still being encouraged to fight stronger enemies for extra challenge as well as extra loot. Something that earlier RPGs like EBB just couldn't do.
The gameplay loop of games like Dragon Quest, for instance, also involve plenty grinding, however, the tedium is mitigated by relatively short length and amount of options for upgrading your gear and magic. Inventory management is just as much of an element of combat as magic and attacking. Thats usually the part people struggle with the most, never buying items and being afraid to use the ones they have because they don't know when they'll get more. This is kinda like what EBB was going for, except the stretches between towns that sell items is insanely long and you will most likely die before you can even go back to stock up. Plus theres no storage system like in EB or M3 to allow you to stock up in advance, making combat much more limited than the games that came before it.
I do too, I think he might just not understand people are facing difficulties in spite of doing all the things he advised.
@@MonkeyNess I edited the comment with more elaborate thoughts, but yeah I see what you mean.
Dammit this sounds like the Risk of Rain 2 community and the Command Artifact. Never free from endless challenge bickering.
For what it’s worth I remember you can use some defense PSI to make giygas easier
Yeah plus not everyone used the fast forward button, at least I don't, so grinding is not my cup of tea.
I finished the game some hours ago and didn't even think of using teleport to avoid encounters wtf
In terms of Giygas it was because you didn’t use PSI Shield Beta. That cuts his attack down to 30 a turn making him much more manageable
You also are able to heal at Magicant and get more items before the boss.
Sorry for the repeat comment, just wanted to make sure you saw it.
The challenge stuff about not dying and animal crossing actually ties into why I loss interest in the newest animal crossing super fast compared to new leaf since there’s like nothing to level up after the first week, no shop upgrades, no towns works projects it was BOORRRING!!!!!
Would've been nice to have a third Franklin Badge for the 3rd party member to completely negate the instakill power that is PK Beam y.
the comments section in this video made me feel like i was listening to megaten fans
EarthBound Beginnings isn't hard, I only died 39 times. (Not a lot of deaths.)
It took me 32 hours and 39 minutes.
(6 days.)
10/10 video game.
A guaranteed masterpiece.
(It's better than EarthBound SNES.)
Cannot tell if satire
@@MonkeyNess (It isn't. It really isn't, honestly.)
I hate when people treat save states as a good solution for a game's problems. Most of the time they only serve to either make up for a lack of checkpoints (which I understand) or to abuse luck to brute force a section of the game. They also do nothing to address actual problems with balance, and do nothing to address the grinding prevalent in Earthbound Beginnings and other JRPGs of the era.
You can like playing video games without liking challenges. It’s possible to have fun while “doing tasks with no challenge.” I don’t know why you’re not considering this as a possibility.
I’m not personally one of those people, but the replies you read made their arguments very clear. So yeah, telling these people to “just watch a movie LOL” misses their point.
That response was only to one person, I don't think you really listened to my arguments.
@@MonkeyNess - That doesn’t seem like a very honest reply. “I was only replying to one person, so therefore your argument is invalid”??
My response was only for that section of the video. I wasn’t “arguing” against the rest.
@LankyLink I apologize, I misinterpreted part of your comment-I took “all these people” as everyone I was responding to in the video. However, a large point I was making in the video was that even doing small tasks IS a form of challenge, regardless of if the punishment for failing is big or not.
@@MonkeyNess - That makes a lot more sense! Thanks for the clear-up!
While I don't necessarily disagree with most of the things you said in this video, there was one thing that rubbed me the wrong way.
I don't like notion that choices in a video game only matter as far the game's challenge drives you to make them. There are plenty of ways for games to give you choices that are not intended to be made with the gameplay in mind. For example, let's say I'm playing a game and I can take two different paths, one adorned with roses, and one adorned with tulips. The game isn't really telling me which path will be more difficult, or if one even will be more difficult, so my decision is only going to be based off of which flower I like more. But the decision still matters, I still want to take the path with the flower I like because I believe I'll enjoy it more, and the choice makes the experience more fulfilling and unique. If I were watching a movie, the protagonist would take the path they wanted to, without any input from me. So of course I'd feel disconnected from the protagonist of a movie vs. the protagonist of a video game, because they aren't making the same choices I would. Now, yeah, of course you'd want both paths to be unique in gameplay. That would prevent it from becoming a bit stale on repeat playthroughs. But this does not mean that the gameplay made the decision matter at all. It would be completely valid to have just wanted to see the flowers on both routes, with the gameplay helping *further* their uniqueness, not defining it.
I also don't like how you immediately jumped to saying the appeal of story/character driven decisions is escapism. I don't have to want to escape the real world to want to place myself in a fantasy setting where I make choices based on what I would want to do, I could just think it would be interesting.
I feel like I should clarify that this comment isn't intended to be aggressive in any way, and I hope it didn't come off as so. I just disagreed with what you said strongly enough to want to talk about it. Hope you're having a good day.
On the "path of flowers" analogy, I completely agree with you, you've persuaded me! I think some of my arguments might be better framed in a "choices matter" framework. Though I'd still argue that's less of a game design view, as it doesn't necessarily impact the overall game, unlike Animal Crossing, where the aesthetics play a large role in the experience.
And I wasn't trying to imply story/character are the escapism aspect, that was about the idea of playing for the sole purpose of entering the world. Wanting to do this is perfectly valid, I just personally believe a video game should do more than be a portal to another world, it should be one into the shoes of the protagonist, like we agree, choices matter!
Didn't get any sense of aggression from you, and thank you for being so respectful and conductive to real conversation! I'm glad it seems the drive for both of us to speak our thoughts came from a good place: passion and a drive to think critically. The central theme of my video is just that: trying to facilitate a productive dialogue! Thanks for your comment, as it really did help me to see some things in a different way. Hope you're having a great day too! Hina Kagiyama , MonkeyNess, forever!
@@MonkeyNess Glad you enjoyed my comment! I'm happy to have been able to communicate my viewpoint to you in a respectful way. I'm also glad you clarified on the escapism aspect, and I definitely agree with you there. Looking forward to more videos from you, you've definitely earned my sub.
Welcome aboard, glad to have you! I made a slight adjustment to my previous comment as well, if you'd like to reread part of it, though the message of it is broadstroke the same.
@@MonkeyNess I did reread it, and I think a video on that topic would be pretty interesting, it's worth looking into.
Just might!
Nice argument, however, you forgot one fatal point. You cannot take your dog with you on your adventure, therefore this game is horrible, and is not worth playing. Is what I would say if TEDDY WASN'T IN IT, BABYYYYYY
Sound point.
I think people are looking at these old RPGs under a vastly different lens than what these games were developed under. Many of these old games were designed so that people wouldn't get through the content quickly by making random encounters difficult; and by making completing game objective a bit obtuse and dungeons mazelike players would get lost and and likely take more battles. Most modern RPGs are design much more tightly with more straightforward dungeon, relatively less dangerous encounters and healing in dungeons. Honestly most often the best thing to do in retro RPGs is to either level up trying reach the boss or grind outside and flee from all encounters in order to keep valuable resources.
I loved this and part 1, not alot of people talk about the easy ring and theres a reason its a so hotly debated topic. In my experience i can beat the gba version in 55 minutes without the easy ring and 49 minutes with the easy ring, so basically the easy ring makes mother 1 gba six minutes easier. Jokes aside my first playthrough of mother 1 used the easy ring, and it made me love the game a ton. I probably would have been deterred from the game if i was blind and without the easy ring. I had already played mother 2 and 3 and knew 1 was another level of difficulty. That being said, with enough skill, preparation, rng manipulation, glitches, and luck, the game is not THAT bad without it. Dimension warp/4th D slip is one of my favorite spells, literal get out of jail free card, and it really messes up itoi section. Also using eve to grind on itoi makes the rest of the game not that bad. And dont even get me started on the breadcrumb glitch.
Mother 1 and mt itoi can feel unfair at times, but its non linear open world really puts it above mother 2 and 3 in my opinion. Earthbound can be open ended at times, like skipping the mole and sprout sanctuaries, but mother 1 you can skip party members, entire towns, alot of weapons and armor, and what seem like important items like the onyx hook and still beat the game just fine. Also you can get basically any melody in any order except the 8th one in the Japanese version, this freedom gives me alot more enjoyment out of replaying the game compared to 2 and 3.
The easy ring is a great feature added in the translation, and definitely recommend using it for a first playthrough. I’d also recommend after that playing the game without the easy ring, unless you know thats not your style. I definitely get enjoyment out of harder games and love to miss the easy ring, however from time to time i still love to use it and fly through the game. Once you get used to mother 1 no easy ring, like very familiar with the game, using the easy ring almost feels unnatural. I weirdly start to miss the incredibly high encounter rate, but the game is certainly easier.
Overall mother 1 is my favorite video game of all time, easy ring or not, and if anything listen to that banger ost.
(Also if you want to learn how to speedrun a game mother 1 was my first and favorite game to speedrun, the reasons above is just scratching the surface on how much i love this game)
Can I get a link to that blogpost(?) about Mother 25th Anniversary edition?
Here!
mother4ever.net/mother-25th-anniversary/
I think I disagree with your assumption that your choices only matter in a game if there's a challenge to it. Even a very simple and linear walking sim still provides an interactive decision space that is broader than that of a film, and the choices you make within that decision space affect your experience with it--even if you're only choosing where to point the camera.
Video games are a fundamental medium, and they don't have to feature a challenge in order to justify their existence. If you were to play a challenge-less video game and watch a movie, each one depicting the same events, both experiences _would_ be distinct.
I guess I just don't even really know what a "walking simulator" is, to me, it sounds like a newly emerging art form or subgenre rather than a "game", but that's just speculation, I'd have to research it before making that call.
@@MonkeyNess I think what Harrison Fackerell means with ¨walking simulator¨ is that despite a game being the simplest game that has ever existed, there will still be a ¨challenge¨ to it.
Take for example the game ¨The Longing¨, the game is literally about waiting 400 IRL days, no complex story, no character development, no mechanics, really few choices to make, just waiting. Now you might think ¨this thing sucks, i just have to wait, there is no challenge¨ but you will be completely wrong becuse despite being a game about waiting it has different endings, making each second matter, making this game has its unique type of challenge.
If a movie was made about this game, you will have a different experience playing the game than seeing the movie of the game, even if they copy pasted every dialogue, scene, or plot twist, the experience will still be very different.
Is not that some games have a an easier challenge, but rather a different type of challenge,
Or that is what i understood from Harrison Fackerell comment.
6:19 Song in the background's name?
Monkey's Delivery Service - Mother 3! All songs used in these videos are listed in the description. :)
@@MonkeyNess Oh thanks
0:42
"The vast majority of people who say that RPGS require grinding just avoid battles"
Okay, fair argument, and I believe that...
But not in Mother 1. Alphs made a video on Mother 1. It feels like you get an encounter on EVERY step, and even if you did and fought them ALL, it wouldn't be enough EXP to fight the upcoming boss.
Games like Omori, Mother 3, or Earthbound can just be beaten if you fight every enemy in your path and only avoid stuff like the Farm Zombie or Mushroom enemies due to them causing horrible status effects.
Mother 1 is MUCH more manageable with the Easy ring, and like this youtuber said, it has a drawback in being outdated at some point in defensive stats.
Even with the Easy Ring, it felt like I got encounters every two steps on Mt Itoi. This is what Ana is MADE for. Beam Gamma and Fire Omega really change up the game here and make it possible to not have to 4th-Dimension Slip every 5 seconds.
As for the final battle, Giegue actually felt really manageable to me despite his incredible damage output due to Shield, and Lloyd put in some work by being the first one to Sing rather than guarding. After all, Ana and Ninten are frail and busy respectively.
1:04
Mother 1... is an exception to that rule.
1:11
I have an explanation for this!
Spamming attacks and tanking hits is an important ability with any game. People are afraid to not have full health for any upcoming battle and therefore just... go back to the last town and have to go back through the area, resulting in a less fun experience. People who leave at a good amount of health could cause more problems for themselves.
I...
Look I never said I had a GOOD explanation for this, just an explanation.
People who don't use most of their health when they're FAR past a safe amount are usually the ones who complain about grinding.
1:25
...
With that amount of health I'm pretty sure you just didn't use shields...
But your point still stands! Yes, that's a problem with most RPGs, where people just run from everything and then complain that a fight's impossible and they have to grind...
But with Mother 1 that's not a good enough excuse.
Even WITH the Easy Ring I was having trouble in some places... and I was taking fights left and right (Unless I wasn't in a safe place to heal but hey I don't complain about grinding lol)
1:56
Okay, running out of MP/PP is a valid answer.
...
But oh boy, Mt Itoi is the time to RUN. If you can't Fire Omega them all down or Beam Gamma a single tough enemy, it's probably best not to take a fight. That's just how Mother 1 works.
2:17
Oh right, PSI stones! I forgot about those things. They were great.
2:44
Fair enough.
6:09
I...
...
Unpopular opinion, *WILDLY* unpopular opinion...
I prefer Lloyd to Teddy.
I am well aware that Teddy is better in every way and I don't even prefer Lloyd because of the bottle rockets or any of the other items.
I prefer Lloyd because of his personality. He's shy, he's a weakling, but he's TRYING.
The Boomerang is Lloyd's best weapon, along with Ana's. I never used Ana for her magic attacks except in bosses and against tougher opponents... and I rarely used Lloyd for explosives.
Which means everyone had to spam regular attacks, and Lloyd was the second strongest for once.
He was able to actually DO something despite being the wimpiest and weakest of the four. He had the Sword from Magicant in his pocket for when Teddy came around, yes, but when I got him back, I was so happy to see him.
He will always be the second best non-PSI user in my heart.
Fourth best Character, behind Jeff, Ness, and Kumatora.
Yeah, uh... I honestly don't like Duster as much. He is cool, yes, but I prefer Lloyd... as a character.
As a party member I prefer Duster.
I enjoy this post quite a bit, but I'd like to take this time to actually complain about the lack of difficulty OMORI has.
It's good that you can beat OMORI without grinding, but like... it's so easy. Especially the further you get into it. Ive played through it 3 times, once on the Hikkikomori route, and even then it still isn't remotely difficult.
It's sad because I love OMORI but it really is such a piss-easy game. Kel breaks the game as soon as you get Run n Gun - Chicken Ball, which you gain access to right after the prologue. Aubrey breaks the game as soon as she gets Counter... in the prologue. Hero breaks the game as soon as he gets Smile (again in the prologue)... which is a weaker version of Mesmerize, which is also totally busted.
I love OMORI but the way they set up skills just made every battle so formulaic. Early game Anger Aubrey and have her spam headbutt, then you just spam Run n Gun Kel while Aubrey spams Counter and Hero spams Smile/Mesmerize. If the enemy is too strong for Aubrey to tank, make Hero do it instead with Smile/Mesmerize and just have Aubrey use Power Hit so Kel and nuke the enemies even more.
It's sad because OMORI gameplay wise is significantly worse than each of his friends, but of they give them skills more akin to OMORI's the game wouldn't be so busted. Kel literally solos the game after getting Chicken Ball
TL;DR OMORI is a sick game but it's the actual RPG aspect of it is incredibly easy if you know how to actually play it.
@@Ken-ru6or
Fair enough.
I'm just a sucker for absolute overpowered characters.
Ness (Earthbound), Kel (Omori, obviously and RunNGun isn'this only OP move as he has Rally), and Alain (HOME, also has a move that's basically Rally) are good examples of what I like to see.
Ana is pretty close to that tbh
Wait, what do farm zombies do? By the time I dealt with them in my most recent playthrough, I was a dumbass who farmed for the T-Rex Bat and I was obliterating them before they acted.
@@mouthwide0pen They inflict the Cold which just kind of acts like weak Poison
@@kirbyfreakyt4695 Ohhh. You can just get rid of it with Healing alpha tho.
Okay, not to be mean, but that motivational quote REALLY came out of nowhere at the end. Like that caught me off gaurd a little bit.
Advocating for save states but not an in-game item is some weird shit.
Easy Ring is fine for people new to the game IMO. The game really doesn't need it though IMO once you know how to break the game. However I can see why people might want it.
The Duncan Rocket Factory is the hardest area in the game for me. Mt Itoi is easier on repeat play through for me but that factory always pushes me to my limit to get through.
-Keep your new party member Lloyd alive until the end or you aren't able to beat it
-The foes using pk fire, Fireballs, Miners. PK Fire protection is the main protection you need and this factory lets you learn that.
-Robots with PK Beam
-Dr Mad with offense up that comes with a goon.
-The biggest maze in the game, with so many good items. You want several of the items here and 1 you for sure want unless you are ok with some annoying enemies casting PK Beam Gamma. Stuff like the haunted house has a cheese strat for the maze, Magicant's maze has been made easier in later versions...this factory has never been balanced.
The only mercy the enemy selection gives is miner might waste turns but also might drop a bomb if you beat it which is a win button for one battle here most of the time, and Dr Mad might run away but even that might be annoying. Scrap robots only fire pk beam, old robots can guard, hit hard, and fire beams.
EB0's easy to beat for me the moment Ninten learns life up beta because he can then solo Giygas if need be but this factory... man this factory...
6:08 True true
With the anniversary hack's rebalancing, it still doesn't completely fix the difficulty "curve" (more like a sine wave), nor the EXP grind. It's a good start, however if someone takes the time to further rebalance MOTHER, I feel like it'd be a better experience for everyone looking to play through the game. The problem in doing this is that there are no useful tools for MOTHER, so everything will have to be done through binary. The easy ring, in my opinion, is useless. I've played through MOTHER numerous times, having no problems with leveling in the beginning, however later on, it becomes a problem. All in all, MOTHER is, and still will be my favorite in the series, despite it's flaws.
I think part of the problem also comes from the fact that the game itself doesn't explain its mechanics that well. We never got a manual. I practically never used spells until Mt. Itoi, because the games was easy enough without it and it never explained to me what the spells actually do.
enough said! i agree
Ok now I’ve played a bit of the game i can form my opinion on this topic:
The game is surprisingly too easy… when I played it I would get giddy about a new enemy and then kill with Ninten in a single hit. Ninten also just carried everyone because they are all weak as frick meaning there’s no strategy as the rest of the party are just meat shields. I got so sick of it I just quit and moved on to something better like playing more splatoon. I wish that the enemies harder and more strategy needing and the party members would be useful too like making loyde not have bottle that do 10 yes a whopping 10 damage. I also played it after earthbound so it was surprising how the same man who made one of the best experiences I’ve had with a game was the same man who made one of the worse.
I know this is my second comment but still.
Tomato should have made the easy ring easier because the game is still hard as hell even with that thing!!!!
My rule of thumb for any JRPG is to fight every random battle to completion and only run away if you're in danger of dying (or if you can tell you're becoming overleveled.) If at that point the bosses still outmatch you or the random fights are a massive resource drain, then you know the game isn't balanced well enough. Granted it changes on a game by game basis, but the argument that people complaining about the grind are actually the ones running away too much is a common fallacy seen all across the JRPG genre.
Most J/RPGs can be completed without grinding though.
That's like saying, "you don't like cheese? Well why are you eating that sandwich?" well, because it doesn't have cheese on it. I don't need to grind.
A tear down of orig4ma's comment because it bothers me so much I just have to.
1) No, I use Auto-Fight at every opportunity, it's still really slow because the only enemies you can really use Auto-Fight to grind on for extended periods are much weaker than you are, meaning you get less EXP, meaning it takes longer if you choose to grind that way, but hey at least it's less tedious somehow.
2) No, you have to grind as soon as you leave your house, every time I've tried to play this game, which is like 5 times, I've had to do that, then you have to grind for the graveyard (You can skip this one by just grind more around you house), then you should grind for the Zoo, you don't have to, but you'll have a really awful time if you don't.
3) As established, grinding takes forever. The last three sessions of Earthbound Zero that I've played have been nothing but grinding until my patience runs out, and I'm nowhere near done yet, because the enemies on the way to Ellay are just too much for my party as it is now to withstand while I try and find my way through that river maze between Youngtown and Ellay.
4) Intentional design ≠ Good design.
5) I can't talk on Mt. Itoi, as I established I'm not there yet, but if it is the way it's described in this comment, everyone in the Mother community has been lying about its difficulty for years non-stop. And no 4th D. Slip is not an excuse, if you try to do that all the time, not only will you be under leveled for Giegue, but you'll also run out of PP to use it long before you're done with everything you have to do there.
I am playing the original difficulty first, but I think I'll probably choose 25th from now on, because even though early game grinding was as bad as I thought it's be, end game grinding makes up for it and then some, and if 25th remedies the excessive grinding altogether, I see no reason to not pick that for all my subsequent playthroughs.
Is it a issue if you don't know where you're going
Hey dude you should play earthbound beggings on the Nintendo switch online because you can like reverse time and go back before you start an encounter or you could decide to do something different im terrible at explaining things you should just try it out for yourself
I've only ever played the base game myself so after experiencing it once the Easy Ring certainly does look more appealing but I think that fans of the series who have played Earthbound and MOTHER 3 might be looking for a challenge and will probably want to play through the initial game atleast once just to feel a sense of achievement by saying they've done it.
But if you really don't care about that stuff, the Easy Ring seems more just there to save you time by cutting the enemy encounters and doubling the experience, things you would have had to grind for anyway.
I think it generally comes down to "how much do you value your time with the game and the original core experience" vs. "Is this an abuse of my time and is it worth the contents and story of the game when I have other things to do and games to play?"
I beat Mother 1 the other week. I got a mod that restored the Japanese names and to english, brought the tomato translation to the NES version, and uncensored the sprites, and I played through it all, without Easy mode.
I'm fairly certain the romhack I used didn't change any difficulty, it claimed not to at least (Mother Restored fyi). And the game was really fun, all the mechanics and what you need to do is really intuitive. I would say it was even easier than Mother 2, which I just beat yesterday. Going to the Graveyard and the inventory management needed for the health items you'll need was the most difficult part I'd say, and one of the most fun parts of the game.
I did not grind at all, at least in my view I didn't grind. It just so happened my playstyle made me overlevelled by the time I reached Duncan's factory. I explored every nook and cranny I could reach, fought every battle that didn't have death attacks (until the final zone so I could save PP), and warped to magicant whenever I got a new party member (to get items, which I was only short of money to get the charm I wanted for Lloyd in my playthrough) or whenever I was close to death, and trekked back to where I was originally without using repel spray. You can call that tedious, but that was a lot of fun for me, and I prefer games whose difficultly rewards my playstyle of combing things over, and finishing every battle worth fighting. It does seem to be how the game was designed, adjusting difficulty knowing young players wouldn't have a guide, and would explore, use the onyx hook, trek around, and I think that's really great.
Easy mode, or the Easy ring, shouldn't have its name changed, because it does make the game easier. Less battles means less magic and item management. For it to be a "Balance" mod, it will need to actually rebalance the game to make up for the the less damage you are going to endure with less encounters. Perhaps giving the enemies more health, and increasing their damage would help...
Personally, I wouldn't change the random encounters in Mother 1. I think what could make less annoying is disallowing an encounter one step (one tile) after finishing another. Whenever that happens, that feels like a blow to progress being made. I'm not sure how you could best balance that other than increase enemy power and health, and increasing rewards. Also, an option for instant wins would be nice. It does seem like encounter rates get lowered when you're high enough level for the area (I once walked from Ninten's House to Mother's Day with only one battle!). But by the time I got Ana, I was able to beat every single enemy battle in magicant on auto before the enemy attacked, at that point it's just a waste of 30 seconds. In that case, it would be nice to have instant wins turned off so we can try out Ana... I'm not sure if the 25th Anniversary romhack fixes these things, so I might just be suggesting things for no reason...
I'm not a big fan of "making games accessible" difficulty wise, because I believe every human being is capable of adjusting themselves to the game they are playing. Mother 1, without easy mode, is still a baby's first RPG (for both the game designers and for the japanese children in '89), and the most difficult thing it asks is for the players to open their minds to new things, new mechanics, new characters, new moves, and new experiences. Dimensional Warp may be an "excuse" for the "whatever-decision" bad game design, but even if it is an excuse, it's still a new mechanic to help the player deal with enemies, and that's reflective of the message I was getting from the game and its story.
At the end of the day, Easy rings and easy mode are going to save the player maybe 3-4 hours. I believe it's more important to have the game be longer and be closer to the original experience than to save a few hours. I was a pretty big proponent of Easy Mode, before I actually finished the game. Looking back on my previous attempts, Easy mode made the game a lot less engaging, and didn't make it worth beating. Of course, part of why I was able to finish Mother 1 finally was because it's what I needed in my life now. I needed a Mother 1 mod that fixed the outdated localization, and I needed the "extreme" enemy encounters. I won't deny that an Easy mode might be what someone else needs in their life, but I wouldn't be able to think they played the same game as me, and I don't think it's the definitive way to play it, much like the NSO version.
I will say the run button ruins the feeling of the game. It's so magical seeing our heroes walk in time to the music, and that's lost with the run button. It's a good QOL change, sure, especially when we are trekking back to store items or coming back from Magicant. But seeing Ninten, Ana, and Lloyd walking through Advent Desert in time to the music was so magical.
It's not the game's difficulty, it's the occasional monotony, plus the luck. Too often you can find yourself doing the same thing over and over, and too often random luck determines how quickly you move forward.
Plus you can, ya know, take the ring off.
Ok but the encounter rate WAYYYY TO HIGH to me that is my big problem
yeah thats my only major gripe besides the slightly bad spritework (though can i blame it? for a huge RPG for the NES it's really good)
I think the game should just be remade at this point. Not saying it isn't great, just that it could benefit from having the qol changes of Mother 2 and 3
I agree, and personally think of the three games is the one that stands the most to gain from a remake!
Just play the game how you want to play it. If you want to play Super Mario Bros. 3 with an infinite invincibility cheat code, that's your choice. Stop caring so much about how other people play single player games.
Completely agree!
3:22 I know I’m a little late but dude just play a tell tale game, it gives everything you are saying you want in a video game.
Played The Walking Dead back around 2014, enjoyed it well-enough.
2:37
"I shouldn't have to make the game easier; the game should be balanced. Challenge me and push me to my limits and make me feel rewarded when I succeed" Or something to that effect.
Please, please, please play Dark Souls.
This game as 1 difficulty. But you can approach it from so many different angles, and some playstyles are simply easier than others. Magic, especially in Demon's Souls, makes the game easier. Using a shield in Dark Souls, makes the game easier. You don't have to, but you can. The game is balanced around these options the player has. And that's it's form of difficulty. Having every build be the same challenge would be both impossible, reductive, and restrictve to the player.
You don't have to make Dark souls easier, just like you don't have to make Mother easier. But you can. And some players want that. There's nothing wrong with using soul arrow, and there's nothing wrong with using your fists at soul level 1, either.
Dark Souls is great, it allows for multiple play styles that alter the difficulty but still keep challenge mostly intact!
Feels like a variant of the "Do difficulty options ruin games" debate
They don't. They're optional. Use them if you want, don't use them if you don't want. Options are called Options because they're Optional.
Are game devs required to give difficulty options like the easy ring, or even just modes called "easy mode"? no, absolutely not. But if they do, its up to the player whether or not to use them.
My favorite part of this argument is how one-sided everyone is. They're either 100% against things like the easy ring, or think every game should have them. This black-and-white approach gets you nothing but arguments. Best to just take a game as it is; if it has options, they're yours to play with. if not, then thats just how the game was designed, either by oversight or because its from a different time when such things weren't as common.
tl;dr options are there to be used, and devs can put them there if they want.
I wholly agree with most of what you have to say, but on the point of challenge being what defines video games: what about Undertale? Sure, the challenge exists, but it's not actually the reason people play it! Like, the mechanic that fundamentally sets it apart from most other games, the option to spare your enemies... considering the fact that for three out of the four fights that could be considered a "final boss", the actual mechanical impact of the choices you've made up to that point is completely non-existent (two of them are locked to a specific route and you therefore must have made very specific choices, one of them sets all your stats to fixed values and doesn't even let you access your inventory), it seems reasonable to conclude that it is the narrative impact that actually makes your choices significant.
Or, what about sandbox games? Creative mode in Minecraft, physics simulators, the "horribly mutilate this virtual creature" genre of flash games -- how many of these truly have challenge, even by your expanded definition?
Hell, visual novels exist! Some of them have like actual mechanics and stuff, sure, but an equal amount are essentially just a picture book on your computer! One of my own personal favorite games is a visual novel where you make precisely two choices per chapter, and making the wrong one sends you instantly to a Bad End. By definition, none of those choices has any real value, yet me being the one making them had enough psychological impact that, when the final choice ended up being between "do something awful" and "turn off the game", I could not bring myself to watch a video of the ending.
Which, speaking of which, on the "why do you feel disconnected from a movie" point: why does reader-insert fanfiction exist? No matter who reads it, the words won't change. The only thing you as the actual physical person reading it can influence is how fast you read. Like a visual novel, except it doesn't even pretend to be a game! Except, "you" are there. Even in a medium where the sort of challenge we're talking about is physically impossible, "you" being the one to do things evidently enhances the experience enough (at least for some people) that there are *two hundred thousand* works tagged as "Reader" on Archive of Our Own.
Challenge is one tool you can use to create a particular sort of experience. Skillfully handled and wielded with purpose, it can absolutely add a lot, but defining the entire art form by this one thing just seems awfully reductive.
Undertale is a great example of my points honestly, oftentimes sparing enemies is more difficult than just killing them! Story, themes, and gameplay are all intertwined to create the experience, that's what makes its great! :)
Sandbox games let you create your own goals, which often involves building the best structure you can think of. Physics simulators in my opinion aren't really "games," but just that, simulators. The Interactive Buddy-type games again, give you a specific goal, hurt the virtual creature! It's oftentimes how you earn currency to get new things to hurt them with.
Visual novels' challenge comes form trying to make the choices to achieve the best outcome. However, I'd argue ones that don't include choices are more so just novels on a screen, more or less.
I wasn't attempting to reduce video games down to only being defined by challenge, but rather explain why engaging gameplay (often achieved through challenge) is important, and why it makes a game go from decent to great. :)
As for the films point, I''m just saying that gameplay is an integral part to what differentiates video games from other art forms.
@@MonkeyNess A goal isn’t necessarily a challenge, though; beating up the Interactive Buddy isn’t a function of difficulty, it’s a function of how much time you’re putting in. Put another way, it’s grinding. But people still find it fun in the same way that people often find grinding fun.
It’s understandable to define sandboxes and simulators as something other than “games” in a strict sense. But… they still have gameplay. They still provide fun without any stated challenge or goal, irregardless of if you make your own. They still offer meaningful choices. If someone were to make a sandbox with a structure like that of an Earthbound-like RPG, that could very much be a fun experience too, yes?
The grinding in EB: Zero is part and parcel what you get with NES RPGs, and a result of hardware limitations. How do you do a grand adventure in 40KB (I know it's an exaggeration, Mother 1 was on a 384KB cart)? I remember having an RPG on DOS that came with a book, and the game referred you to a passage in the book for the story...to save disk space, and the floppy it was on was a 700K floppy.
The majority of NES RPGs have been remade and rebalanced, but Mother 1 is still trapped on NES. The Easy Ring band-aids the grinding, but doesn't solve it.
I understand that guys point about movies and games but it doesn't change the fact that a game should be balanced if at all possible, sure you can enjoy a game for it's story and characters but isn't it nice to also have a fun and decently challenging game aswell? You can have your cake and eat it too in these situations yet so many people are content with a boring game with an interesting skin on top of it.
Проходила игру в первый раз без Easy Ring. Тоже думаю, что он имеет право на существование, ибо вряд ли абсолютно любой новичок захочет проводить основную часть игры за прокачкой, а не прохождением сюжетки.
Да и...разве не игрок должен сам решать, какую версию Earthbound Zero ему проходить? Если он захочет прочувствовать всю сложность первой игры и готов вытерпеть бесконечную прокачку, он поиграет в обычный Earthbound Zero, если же нет - он выберет Easy Ring. Говорите что угодно, но дайте человеку выбрать самому
(лично я проходила оригинальный Earthbound Zero, и это был тот ещё пиздец. Но он того стоил)
Я только потом понял что easy ring не было в оригинале. Без прохождения было тяжело, умирать много раз до зоопарка. Даже не хочу представлять как играеться оригинал
@@Garchomp47 играется...весело. У меня было достаточно свободного времени для прокачки.
Насчёт смертей до зоопарка понимаю. Я частенько дохла от хиппи. Из-за них пришлось торчать в подвале дома Нинтена и бить крыс, пока я не начну выносить их с одного-двух ударов
The problem with the "challenge" discussion is that these videos present it as being a rule: a No True Scotsman fallacy.
"Animal Crossing has challenge because it puts pressure on you to motivate you and keep you playing the game."
But... Animal Crossing does not do this. There's a reason so many non-gamers play, and it's because you can have a perfectly enjoyable AC experience by starting the game and wandering around to enjoy the atmosphere, maybe leaving a nice message for another player. This is pretty much why they made it so multiple players can share the same village - to remove the pressure of village upkeep entirely.
You could say that this is possible to do this sort of thing in, say, Mother 3 if you wanted, but you're not really playing it because you have to engage in challenge to progress the game. That's true, but AC doesn't expect "progress". These players are interacting with the game as intended, while ignoring optional challenges. They receive the intrinsic reward of interacting and experiencing the world, where a movie or book is not being experienced if the audience doesn't progress through the work. To prove my point here, if you recorded this kind of aimless, unchallenged gameplay, and watched it back later - would you be replaying the game, or were you never playing the game? If you weren't playing the game, what were you doing?
There are decades of writing on what makes a game different to a movie, how the player inhabits a character, and how they inhabit a customised avatar, and how the game can interactive differently with the player and with the player character. There's no simple dilemmas with this subject.
Also, as a thought experiment. Yume Nikki, as originally released, did not have any " challenge ". You wandered about and looked at stuff. You could interact with stuff, find ways to interact with various objects, etc, but there was no reason to explore besides the intrinsic desire to explore. The developer eventually added an ending criteria, but they didn't intend to do that at first. If games require challenge... were the first versions of Yume Nikki a movie? A comic? Did it not have rewarding gameplay? I would say no to all of these, that the point is to experience the world and the goal is superfluous.
Let me know what you think.
PS: someone needs to tell that chump that fleeing is an intended mechanic
It's not a No True Scotsman fallacy at all, you're just applying my answer for one example as a catch all.
Animal Crossing still completely works as an example. My point wasn't that it applies pressure to keep you playing the game, but motivates you to keep doing things within the game, always giving the player something to do. Something being easier to put down than another does not equal no challenge. Objectively, Animal Crossing games have loads of challenge, it's just to the player's discretion which they seek out, effectively letting the player design their own experience.
Definitions are also getting confused here, you can very much be playing a game without progressing. Just because someone say chooses to replay the same level of a game over and over doesn't mean they're not playing the game.
As for Yume Nikki, I again disagree. The challenge in that case would be finding the correct path through the experience, as the game is layed out in a way to encourage exploring the world to find your way forward.
@@MonkeyNess There is no correct path in Yume Nikki. Objectively. It was never the intent to push the player to act in any particular way in the game. You could collect effects, but most of them don't really do anything. The point is just to explore.
The players demanded a "challenge" aspect, so they added an item collection to get an ending. You can do that more or less quickly or efficiently, so there's an element of challenge to that objective.
However, it's far more challenging to engage with the work as it was originally created: as expressionism. Feeling the game and thinking the game, rather than trying to plan a path through or execute anything skillfully.
I won't spoil the ending, but I interpret it as a criticism of the idea that the "challenge" needs to be accomplished at all.
If there truly is no objective in terms of achieving anything, I question if it can even be considered a "game" at that point. In its form with an ending to reach, and an end to get to, sounds a lot like something with a form of challenge to me, even if it's lax on the effort demanded to achieve them.
When I say without an objective I "question if it's even a game," I don't mean that in any condescending way. I would just consider it another type of art entirely, more akin to a walking simulator. Art in its own right, but separate from video games.
@@MonkeyNess Funny you mention "walking simulator", because that genre is one of the reasons that the conversation is basically over these days - not that there's only one opinion, but because nobody feels the need to seriously debate it.
The game Gone Home is right on the edge of what one could consider to have a challenge. The story is that you are a specific person returning home to an empty house and you piece the story together by pawing through your family's stuff. The main challenge is figuring out what's going on beyond where a note might tell you to look - a narrative challenge more than a technical one.
Yume Nikki doesn't feel the need to lead the player around, but it works in the same way: encouraging the player to wander and poke and prod, with the fail state being boredom (I got bored real quickly ngl) and the win state resulting in the intrinsic reward from discovering something interesting first-hand. In other words, you must **play** in it to experience it.
There are many playful art installations, of course, but art that demands the audience personify a character to experience the art are games! Alternate reality games, tabletop roleplay games, LARPing... They're all playful to some degree, just a bit more indirect than a video game.
PS: Because of an extremely petty and unrelated aversion to Gone Home containing very straightforward feminist, queer themes, it was often derided as "not a real game", as a walking simulator. Critics were mixed to positive, but even serious reviewers who didn't much like it still tended to think that was probably too far to say it wasn't a game at all. As a result, normal people tried to veer away from using that kind of rhetoric derisively (same as how you have to clarify that it wasn't intended as an insult). The problem basically faded away because the media language of "interactive art" and "games" are so close that the line is totally blurry, and nobody being serious wanted to risk getting a few thousand assholes turning it into a culture war.
Sorry if this one's a bit too rambly, I'm tired lol
I’m using the restore points with NSO and it still feels too hard. I’m stuck in that factory without Lloyd, and the only reason I haven’t died several times is because I abuse the items to change the RNG so I don’t have to fight Dr. Distorto and an Old Robot who nearly instakill me while I miss. Also I am just lost in the factory while getting bombarded by encounters. I feel like I would like this game a lot more if the areas were more varied so I knew where I was (I understand this was because of hardware limitations) and if there weren’t a bunch of encounters (which the easy ring fixes but I have been playing on NSO). I still like the game, but the beginning just feels tedious. Especially since I’m probably so far away from getting Teddy… :(
Also it was probably a bad idea to play the Mother series in reverse order, since the combat feels so much worse than Earthbound and Mother 3, obviously.
Honestly, fuck grinding. GTA Online showed me just how terrible that shit is.
Challenge should be a test of knowledge, skill, or reflexes. Not a test of patience.
As a fan of 8bit RPGs, I don't think that Mother had too much grinding. :)
Dragon Warrior 2-3 and Final Fantasy 3 were way worse. The only 8bit JRPG where you don't need to grind was (maybe) Silva Saga.
Glad you enjoyed it and weren't bothered, but most players are likely not regular NES RPG players, and I don't necessarily think just because the grinding isn't as bad as other games that makes it better. Again, glad you enjoyed it though :)