I agree especially considering how inaccurate it is, it takes a fair amount of skill to land shots. The five-seven at this point one shot hs at close range WITH armor which I find to be ridiculous.
allan sheets I have also been taking advantage of SMGs on my Noob friend's account. I've gotten him 5 straight wins with only usng MAC-10 except when clutching. I am ashamed of myself. LOL
Coscosss a team with a few ex pro cod players actually played csgo near the start of it in NA called hold mouse one later renamed to curse and guess what they wrecked the NA scene at the time that was full of legends who have been playing counter strike for years and years... big surprise this games a joke in contrast to 1.6
tec-9 1 hit headshot for $500 is honestly ridiculous. tell me i can get shut down with me $6000 buyout with m4 + nades + defuse kit. They should all be 2 hit headshots in exception to the deagle.
no, then its a glock. it needs to be balanced. valve THOUGHT they did something after get_rights fucking stupid Nuke 360* falling headshot. (Tbh i didn't know a tec-9 was a cheaper inaccurate deagle at the time) but they just changed the range of it, not completely solving the problem. The solution to be had here is to *INCREASE ACCURACY* and *DECREASE DAMAGE* (And this should be for all pistols in exception to the deagle.)
Tec-9 and Five-SeveN are the only pistols which are OP. Deagle is alright now, dualies are underpowered. Glock and USP/P2K are balanced and so is the P250. Just change the damage a bit and running accuracy heavily on the 5-7 and Tec-9 and it should be all fine. Oh, and the CZ-75 is perfect now. EDIT: Tec-9 is heavily OP, while the Five-SeveN is just a bit too good.EDIT2: I wrote accuraccy. :(
Arviga JokeR Yeah 5-7 is definitely too good. Great running accuracy, and amazing damage. B is pretty well on lock-down if you have a 5-7 and head armor, and you play car on Dust II. Of course this is more of a problem at lower ranks. But still. Tec-9 and 5-7 both need a running accuracy debuff, Tec-9 more than the 5-7 obviously. Just my 2 cents.
Long story short, the way pistols work make these Pistol Rounds about completely random movement. Pistols should be about aim battles just like Gun Rounds, yet for some reason Valve doesn't want it to be that. Then you get things like buffing SMG's randomly when they were fine just the way they were, and instead of helping the people who just got wrecked by Tec-9s, whoever won the pistol is going to pick up these SMG's and have a completely insane bank in 2 rounds as long as they don't fuck up bad. As pro players and the community have stated, its ruining the meta of the game. Change SMG's back, make Tec-9 and Five Seven weaker, and make movement accuracy a thing of the past. Btw great video as usual Thooorin.
The way I see it - Tec-9: Moving accuracy changed to closely resemble Desert Eagle spam accuracy Drop ammo from 24 to 20 Drop armored headshot damage to 85 requiring two headshots to kill CZ-Auto: Slow firerate slightly (550 RPM, currently 600) Flip Chest/Arm and Abdomen/Pelvis damage values to encourage headshot attempts (with armor, Abdomen takes 31 and Chest takes 25 currently) Five-Seven: Magazine reduced to 15 rounds (going to 10 makes it a fairly pointless buy compared to the P2K or USP) Increase movement inaccuracy to decrease accurate range to 11m (currently 14m, on par with P250) That should address most of the IMMEDIATE issues with pistol balance.
TuneEdits Just because it's incredibly skill based doesn't make it bad. I've used the Deag to great effect in force buy rounds before. People are just used to spamming while running :P
Toastie Toasterton Well if you compare the overall efficiency(regardless of skill) of the deagle with something like the tec-9, there is a obvious difference.
Well if we're disregarding skill, then the ak is worse than the m4a1 because it's got harder recoil to manage. The deagle isn't bad, and it's worth its pricetag.
well ak is onehit headshot. making it viable for pushing. the deagle is well balanced. but in comparison to the tec-9 it isn't. the deagle fires slow, has high recoil and a small clipsize. the tec-9 has almost as much damage as the deagle plus high accuracy while moving, big clipsize, high firerate and a lower price. if the deagle was better(which i should be for the higher price) pros would use it more.
also in comparison to the fiveseven. the fiveseven has high accuracy, firerate, clipsize and pretty much a onehit headshot. The P250 is a onehit headshot. which makes the deagle even less viable.
As someone who plays cs since 2000(not comp) I don't agree that 1.6 was uber balanced. It is and it isn't. It is not balanced because not all weapons are balanced. in 1.6 people only used glock usp deagle mp5 m4a1 ak-47 awp. Thats like less than half of the weapons in the game. At least CSGO is trying to involve other weapons. It makes sence to buy galil or famas or aug or sg. It makes sence to buy other weapons. Like nova is a beast on anti eco. So is mac-10, mp7 ump-45 p90 etc etc. I won't argue that the pistols are OP and its stupid that a pistol does more damage or even can 1 shot yet m4 can't. But I think that they shouldn't try to follow 1.6 model. I think they should use it for reference but they should stick to involving all guns in game. Maybe make weapons more segregated. Like usp is good for long distance and p250 is better close range. then they should further segregate it with other weapons.
Olterior agree with most of your opinion. but i don't think every gun have to be balanced in the game because some are situational gun and some guns are made only for entertaining purpose like Negev, M249.
But what's the point of having more guns? I mean okay it's good to have a mag 7 and maybe 1-3 smgs but they shoud be very situational. I think thooorin did a video about this as well :)
i literally armor tec9/five-seven over the famas/smg every eco-round. That is how ridiculous these pistols are. If you have good one-click accuracy the the pistol is the way to go. famas - 2 shot head shot, 25 bullets tec9 - 2 shot head shot (1 shot close range) 24 bullets, moves faster, get tagged less five-seven - 2 shot head shot (1 shot close range) 20 bullets, moves faster, get tagged less tec9/five-seven - 1500+ cheaper than famas/galil WHAT GUN WILL YOU CHOOSE
I applause to this! This pretty much sums up what is wrong with the game. Unfortunately most of the new players don't realize coz the're coming from cod or world of tanks and don't know shit about competitive counter-strike. But that doesn't stop them from having an loud opinion on reddit or hltv demanding more randomness
Have you guys ever noticed that Thooorin's face kinda looks like a pink and white panda? Like a basic pinkish complexion coupled with white panda-eye marks.
Back before the cz was introduced was the best power level for pistols. The P250 was the pistol of choice, but the rest were bought on occasion. With armor, they had a strict advantage against SMGs, and against rifles, they had a challenging - but not impossible - round.
I agree with you fully that pistols should take much more skill to use. I agree that the current run and spray random playstyle that pistols encourage is not a good thing. However, I do think that pistols should remain very powerful while taking more skill to use. Gameplay that is based on huge amounts of momentum(i.e. winning one round and basically getting another free round out of it) is a very bad thing. It encourages less comebacks, more teams getting locked out economically, much more predictable rounds, and less options for the losing team. In this sense half/armor+pistol buys are quite exciting and not because they are random and lack skill for winning rounds.(19:36) Pistols should take a good amount of skill to use and be able to kill riflers. One of the things I love about CS:GO is that every round can go either way. A team with an economic advantage always has a decent chance for their momentum to be lost which is something I think Valve did a very good job with in CS:GO than older games. In my opinion, the likelihood of a team getting eco'd on a full buy should be about 35-40%, which is about what the likelihood is currently. 21:06 I couldn't agree with more. However, while I don't think you said, "All of the pistols other than the deagle shouldn't be able to kill a rifler with one bullet" or "The pistols should be way less powerful", it really felt like you wanted pistol balance from the old games to return which I disagree with. One of the major strong points with CS:GO is that the pistols are so powerful. tl:dr pistols should be strong but not random or easy to use imo
I agree in 100% in this thought... I observe this problem some time ago... this is for me also reason why VP is so random... why? because they do not have response for eco rounds and lost a lot of pistol rounds ;) taz eagle does not exists like at 1.6... he was one of the best users of this gun... same thing with neo nice work Thorin^^
You nailed it Throin. Valve are sacrificing balance/competitive integrity for excitement. Excitement draws crowds, crowds draw money. Money makes valve happy. Best strat currently. Buy flashes and tech 9. Win every round. Time to go back to 1.6 boys and girls.
Tec 9 armour rushes late into a round (like after 40 seconds pass) are really OP with 2 -3 flashes before entry. I've seen most easily abused on Cache where T-side entry points are small and easy to group.
The way I see it - Tec-9: Moving accuracy changed to closely resemble Desert Eagle spam accuracy Drop ammo from 24 to 20 Drop armored headshot damage to 85 requiring two headshots to kill CZ-Auto: Slow firerate slightly (550 RPM) Flip Chest/Arm and Abdomen/Pelvis damage values to encourage headshot attempts (with armor, Abdomen takes 31 and Chest takes 25) Five-Seven: Magazine reduced to 15 rounds (going to 10 makes it a fairly pointless buy compared to the P2K or USP) Increase movement inaccuracy to decrease accurate range to 11m (currently 14m, on par with P250) That should address most of the IMMEDIATE issues with pistol balance.
They should give the duelies somekind of buff (or nerf every other) like more standing/running accurary or jumpshot like scout or something different than the others the gun stats should remain the same because we don't need another armor piercing gun I suggest that they swapped the accurary of dualies with tec9 AND fiveseven So that you could run like crazy with the dualies like you do with tec but not make those crazy 1hs kills and make the dualies actually usable and make use for the 30 bullets there are. And that would make give tec-9 rushes almost useless and focus more on precise headshots (dualies has the best first shot accurary of the pistols) giving the fiveseven more standing accurary doesn't change much because it's almost perfectly accurate now it would just take away the 5-7 eco rushes
irou95 duelies are just against the very logic of the game. You cannot shoot while moving, you cannot shoot while doing some other thing, and you cannot shoot with one hand.
+Tolga Elbay CS GO isn't realistic, it's tactical for sure but whether or not someone shoots with two weapons in the game doesn't really matter since it doesn't aim to be a milsim.
ADAD isnt the problem with tec 9. the problem is that you can 5 man rush a person holding with a rifle holding in w.. ADAD is a problem for pistol rounds
agree, but adad, as you say can be used with a rifle as well, so it keeps the rifle advantage of choosing spray or tap with adad. So the balance is most affected by the running acc
Nice generalization. I have been telling everyone to ditch the CZ for the Tec9 while everyone was complaining about it. It's a limited sample size, but I would be wrecking CZ players fairly comfortably. The CZ outshined the Tec9 in a lot of ways, but now that it's out of the picture the Tec9 has been realized. Though, we never heard about any imbalance of the 5-7 until now, but I guess that's because every single CT used the CZ instead of the 5-7 so they never really noticed it. But coming from a person who never liked the CZ, I am glad people have finally seen the power in these other two pistols. It's about damn time.
ikr, everyone thinks they buffed it, they did for like a week when it was super op then reverted it. I think it was just so people started using that, as the cz was always the favourite. The mp7 was probably the least used smg aswell & now they buffed that to counter the pistols rushes some think, but I also think because it wasn't often used. They need to rework the way damage dropoff works & then make the rifles 1 shot hs at close range imo. The amount it costs & the fact a p250 is better close range is dumb.
I follow the competitive scene since 2004, watched lots of CS1.6 matches back in the day. To be honest I like the variations of weapons we have in csgo, in 1.6 all the eco rounds were basically throwaway rounds, that's why back in the day every fragmovie had a significant number of clips of a CT getting 5 kills in one spray (because the terrorists had no options of buying a effective SMG or a pistol cheaper than degle) so the terrorist most of the time executed the suicide 5 man rush. Out of the first 15 rounds of the 1st half, ONLY the fullbuys were worth watching in 1.6 (and I'm talking about the top teams back in the day), ecos were considered lost rounds 90% of the time. I still think the pistols needs a slight rebalanced in csgo, but I don't think CS1.6 was the perfect model to be followed.
i actually agree with this entire video, ive been playing csgo since beta and i was completely oblivious of how op and ridiculous it is the a 3200$ colt cant kill u with head armor in one shot but a 300$ p250 the, in all honesty, a distant player can spam and get the kill off a full kited ct. its unbalanced and unfair. great video man
I agree with everything in this video. A change is needed and its needs to happen soon. Rather than changing the meta of the game to accommodate OP pistols, they should fix the real issues and balance out their game. A thing to add to what you said Thoorin, I think a large part of this issue derives from aim punch with pistols. As it stands, if you are being shot at and have no armor, the aim punch is ridiculous. You can aim at the feet and have your shots got straight into the sky. In order the balance this issue I believe valve have increased the movement accuracy and damage to give the ecoing team a chance to get a kill, but all it has really done is take away the skill required to use a pistol and made getting kills with a pistol (without armor) extremely luck based, as your aim/recoil is punched into the sky and a lot of the time you get these ridiculous headshots while strafing, even at long range. In addition to the unbalanced aim punch, movement accuracy and damage, at close range the five-seven, Tec9 AND the P250 are a 1 shot to the head, which I find absolutely ridiculous. The only pistol that should 1 shot a fully armored opponent is a desert eagle, as the rest of the gun is effectively balanced and costs $700, compared to the $300-$500 for other pistols. Not only does this effect your regular eco round where people may buy a p250 with a flash (or any other pistol for that matter) it encourages people to buy armor with a pistol as trying to use a pistol without armor is extremely inconsistent and luck based, which leads to the problems you have stated with force buying etc. TLDR: - A major underlying problem with pistols is aim punch. - Moving accuracy and damage is OP - The only pistol that should be capable of a 1 headshot kill is a desert eagle. - Thoorin is a thug and drinks out of multiple cups because why not.
FEC Kampfkuchen Sure there's logic behind it... Counterstrike just isnt a simulation/realism game, it's an esport. I'm not really defending the current state of pistols tho...
Tec has a longer barrel. IRL that doesn't make that much of a difference, but that's the only thing that varies between the pistols. But that falls apart when you look at the subguns and their 6-10'' barrels and how they perform relative to pistols that use the same ammo.
In 1.6 the only thing that sucked about the Pistol-Ecos...they where very obviously lost, now you can win more with pistols which makes watching more fun
Five Seven, Tec-9, CZ and P250 need an armor penetration Nerf so they cant 1 hit kill through helmet. Also increase spread while moving so they need to be mostly stationary to get precise shots
At least we can see more than 7 guns used in this game now. Btw in css we rarely saw more than 6 guns because there was no tagging and this made the glock the weakest piece of trash.
In my opinion, they should remove the animation from the CZ and raise the kill reward back to $300. Wont make it any more powerful, just make it more viable as an sidearm. Recoil and damage is just fine to keep it balanced.
+DoublePortalInc In my opinion they should buff the animation just a bit and keep the reward low. It is a good weapon for eco rounds vs full buy. Recoil and damage are fine.
I queued as a 5 man on ESEA not long ago and we got overpass as the map. The entire t-side we only used tec-9's. Bought them every single round and tec-9 armoured every round except pistol. We won that half 12-3 and then won the game 16-3.
I hope someone from Valve sees this, Thorin is so correct it's not even funny. I still play CS:GO like it 1.6 still because those aspects of taking your time to shoot were very rewarding. Now I've tried going CS:GO style on people more lately and im blown away by some of the kills I manage to get.
pistols in cs:go are great, they give teams way better chances to comeback and are the reason we constantly have those close epic games which go 16:14 or overtimes so often !
yeah thorin i agree 100%. the skill ceiling in 1.6 was so much bigger and like you said 100 times cs go doesnt require the same amount of skill. i think the problem is that csgo is trying to be to much like battlefield and COD with this stupid just run and gun style instead of using the controlled technique. the movement speed and pistol accuracy is ridiculous, if your standing on a tight corner they can pop out n instant 1 bullet hs u and you have about .2 of a second to react and its so frustrating to play against. economy doesnt really mean anything anymore. all these people complaining about 1.6 obviously werent around for it because it was what started all this competitive fps and it was so much more of a balanced game. the better team would almost always win and it was just better to watch.
I always called the Deagle and Tec-9 the guns with "quantum dinks" - there's a little area of probability where you can just run and spam and get headshots with zero aim.
In an interview at Winter Dreamhack 2014 "Its normal to win eco rounds... 50-50 in my opinion" "The Five-Seven is already good enough... you don't need CZ in the game" - Xizt
To be honest I'm enjoying seeing ct take up smg's if they win the pistol round so they can match the pistol/armor t buy for mobility. It's a different meta which keeps things interesting. Also for the pistols to "win" usually involves fast peaks and instant head shots and thusly rewards skill. Making them utter garbage just means the rifled camping at range and spraying them down with very little fear which for me is more dull
USP, Glock P250 and the Dualies and the Deagle are fine. But the 3 controversial guns at the $500 slot (not the Dualies) it should really be like normally a 15% chance to win an eco but with pistol armour buys or even eco rounds are normally a 40% chance to win an eco and basically breaks the economy system in this game. everyone can force buy EVERY ROUND like a silver which encourages a low tactical and skill ceiling to the game which is infuriating having idiots YOLO the shit out of this stuff because of overpowered CHEAP guns. #cspistolnerf
Yea I do have to agree that the Five-Seven is really broken, as someone who literally just uses it over anything if you have good aim you can literally kill three to four people in a rush. I think Valve should consider adding the golden gun from Goldeneye64 for the T's that should balance the game
the p250 is rather strong aswell, especially considering that it costs 300 bucks and can oneshot somebody with a helmet... but the pistol thing is a problem in general and a really big one on mirage t-side imo because it has b apartments leading to van leading to bomb side leading to bench which is all close range... its been quite a while since i was on t side, lost the first round and the team agreed that we should eco... everyone buys armor and tec 9s and one guy buys 2 flashes and then you just rush apartments, first flash over it, 2nd flash bounced off the wall and then just rush down the guy at van/bench... he will be completely blind and if he is lucky he can fall back a bit just to get spammed at by 4 tec 9s which pretty much means he is dead, maybe he'll get a kill or 2 but now its 3v1 on B, one of the ts will have an smg or even worse a rifle and they will get the bomb down and as a t you can stand close to every entrance to b bomb side so defending it with tec 9s is far from impossible... i have to admit that it feels great to do it as a T because usually losing the pistol in solo competitive means you have to play 2 rounds with the odds stacked against you but i also know how annoyed and pissed you get when 3 guys are just rushing out and one of them gets the lucky dink... volvo please fix
Great video once again, you didn't mention the ADAD spam when using pistols though, do you not feel like this is a problem in CS:GO or did you just forget to mention it?
Yea GJ Thorin ... Lets use only 5 weapons ( m4 , ak , glock , usp , awp ) and make everything useless like it used to be on CS 1.6 , Also i agree that CT - T pistols are not balanced ... usp can 1 shot on any range without armor while glock is less accurate and need 2 headshots or 6 bodyshots ...
Kristofuz As much as I'd love that to happen, it wont. My idea was $500 P250, $800 5-7/CZ/Tec9 This makes forcebuying harder and SMGs a lot more useable without making them OP like they are now.
well, your arguments seem legit, but the true is that the overall balance is quite good this days. ALL teams favor the m4/ak/awp over having TEC9s with utility in EVERY ROUND. i think the percentage of won eco rounds is very good/dynamic at least for the pro players.
The problem is, you shouldn't be able to have a $300 or $500 weapon that out performs a $3100 because you can instantly kill someone while running, with a headshot.
imagine a big costly tank drives into an insurgent urban city and gets blown away by a 100 dollar rpg. so why do tanks exist? because they are very effective if they are used for what they are built for! if you have an awp you dont go into close distance battles against rushings tec9s unless you use a surprise tactic in a few cases. this principle is used by strategic games very often (rpg very good against tanks, very weak against rifle men, etc). it makes the game more strategic. my opinion.
Phil Langer I totaly agree to that. If you use it right you should not worry at all. The rebalance is one reason why many bangable walls and doors stop all but sniper bullets now. If i protect b on inferno for example i do not even try to make direct shots. I bang through the corner because any silver can give you a prefire headshot at random if you stand wide open.
That is an interesting analogy except that you are forgetting the fact that a shot from a tank should and will kill the man with an rpg. In cs the "tank" requires 2 shots to kill the man with the "rpg" this should not be the case at close range anyways
I think something that needs to be said is, they need to have roles for these weapons. If theres no reason to use a weapon, then it might as well not be there. I think thats what valve is trying to do, give each weapon a use. That being said, I do agree, the whole gun balance overall needs to be reworked, starting with the pistols. You can't have the five-seven and p250 a 1 shot headshot up close and not the m4. You also can't make the m4 a 1 shot headshot because thats the advantage the ak47 has that terrorists rely on for entry frags. There needs to be a reason to buy these guns but it needs to be reworked overall, not just a bandaid fix on a couple guns.
I'm not talking about reworking the m4 and the ak, theyre fine. I was just using that as an example of why the p250 shouldnt be a 1 shot headshot up close. Heres how I would change the pistols: make the starting pistols have better armor pentration (make them a little more viable on eco rounds), nerf the p250 to a 2 shot hs at close range but give it an extra clip, give the five seven and tec9 slightly worse running accuracy and raise the cost of all the luxury pistols by 100 dollars excluding the dualies.
Thats what I'm saying, encourage full saving but make it so that if you do its still possible to win a round with the proper team play, because as I see it right now, it wouldnt be.
Teams need to know how to counter the pistols, not with just weapons, but positioning and teamwork. I personally don't agree with all your points, I do not see competitive play with everyone just using pistols as primaries. If you take down an eco team, that was done using skill, and if an eco team takes down a geared team that was done with skill. The pistols don't shoot by themselves to the head (BOOM HEADSHOT!). Yes, pistols have a nice movement advantage. Yes, the pistols can get some kills that they "shouldn't". But everyone has pistols. And when people have money they typically use primary weapons. Enjoyed your video, enjoyed your opinions, and I don't believe you're incorrect, just stating my opinion as well. Thanks =)
The run n' gun and 'everybody is a winner' mentality has to go. Good video once again, why can't Valve make the right decisions. People should stop buying keys and supporting unbalanced game.
This is why CS GO ranks have such huge skill gaps, some people prefer the hard way(high skill weapons) and some others prefer the easy way(P90,tek8,auto,sg), but in the end of the day both get together in the same rank... braindead p90 spammers and actually decent ak-47 aimers...
I really really disagree with most of what Thooorin says. I've been playing CS since 2001 and the main issue with the game to me has always been the fact that only 4 weapons have really been used in professional games, ak, m4, awp and the deagle. The fact that Valve is trying to make pistols, and smgs more viable is something I'm really happy about. Heck, even shotguns and LMGs should be more viable! Make them situational, so that they excel in very particular scenarios, but make the extremely good at that! I'd love to see SMG strats from pro teams! Sure it'd be gambling but thats what makes the game exciting and fun to watch / play. Variety is the key to make a game long lasting, and if you love / support Counter Strike, you have to stop complaining about how 1.6 was better. CS is now popular more than ever, and variety cannot hurt it! More competitive maps, and more viable weapons, and maybe brand new weapons is what I want to see.
This is still an issue in 2018, the glock can just run spam, the USP is basically a run spamming deagle on pistol rounds, its a mess, i want all moving penalties to pistols and SMG's move up to the same level as rifles. Edit: 2023, new game and still the same issue.
There is something about the p250 that just tickles me from all the right places. It's the only pistol i'm consistently good with. And it's just 300. To me, it's my favourite pistol, and best.
So in an ideal world where the pistols are as you described where do you see smgs? And when would people use them rather then saving for a buy? And with galil/famas being so close to that price range too. Are they just a gamble to get more money if you get kills or the 2nd round buy if you win 1st round? Love your vids btw.
Starting to feel like the only way this could get better without the competitive support from Valve is to do what pros do for call of duty where there is a different ruleset between MM and pro games. Example, certain guns and perks are not allowed. Although this would hurt the growth of the game.
Thorin i think one reason that Valve make pistols so powerful in CSGO because of an implementation of aimpunch that make eco round un-winnable. Instead of removing aimpunch, they decided to make pistol OP to make pistol+armor forced buy viable in this game.
Can't agree more with this video. I've always said the 5-7 is OP, but nobody will notice or ask for it to get nerfed because weapons like the Tec9 are more OP currently. The 5-7 is god awful and exactly what I feared would happen happened, they 'nerfed' one of the pistols but not the other.
Does Thorin ever actually play csgo in person because I never saw.. He's a historian ik that not hating but I've been into csgo since last year did he play 1.6?
I've been into 1.3 the one version where jump-duck era dominates. pistol/d-eagle has been like that.. Thoorin knows what he is saying. he's fucking veteran at analyzing a game.
And is it relevant? I play cs since 1.0 and don't know 1/10 of his ingame knowledge... I find hilarious that 'gamers' tend to think that if someone don't play the game automatically means that he doesn't have the ingame knowledge to infer into it. It's like saying that a music critic doesn't have the right to infer into music because he don't play a instrument well; or a food critic for not being a chef; or a movie critic not being a director. I sincerely don't know if people are naive or dumb.
There needs to be a chance to win ecos, unlike 1.6. We need to grow up out of this 1.6 era where ecos were never won. I agree it's crap when you can 1 hit-hs with a pistol where the opponent has head armour (par the obvious exception of the deagle).
everybody are still playing the same game, if pistols are stronger than they used to be and if people can use more than 3 gun then thats the way it is. Its not helping a certain team to win everything. Its always balanced in csgo because whatever enemy does to you, you can technically do the same on the second half. Everybody are comparing GO with 1.6 and i have never played it but i can't believe its so perfect as people say it was. personally i think pistols are fine, tec9 maybe still a little too op. I would just focus on nerfing the smgs a little.
Make all pistols (except for the deagle) a 2 hit hs kill and reduce running accuracy is all valve needs to do in my opinion to make the pistols balanced
not only the pistols encourage skillless play, so much comes down to movement and in CS:GO right know there is no movement which encourages skillful or competitive gameplay
The accuracy of moving shots was mentioned a lot. To be honest, I think the accuracy while moving is too accurate, Idk if thats just me. Same thing with jumping. i.e. the scout, smgs, etc.
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
the only pistol that should one shot headshot should be the deagle
I agree especially considering how inaccurate it is, it takes a fair amount of skill to land shots. The five-seven at this point one shot hs at close range WITH armor which I find to be ridiculous.
I dont mind the other pistols having 1 shot hs damage. Its just the moving accuracy of everything. EVERYTHING
Yeah. I've ranked up twice now just using a MAC-10, TEC-9 loadout on T-Side. CS GO is fun. (I've ranked up twice in two weeks)
Menalot Daranciang nice man
allan sheets I have also been taking advantage of SMGs on my Noob friend's account. I've gotten him 5 straight wins with only usng MAC-10 except when clutching. I am ashamed of myself. LOL
god damn, almost a year later and all of the problems mentioned are still there.
+PHALHANX gabeN busy counting his money, no time to fix stuff
12345DJay 2tru
+PHALHANX Yeah. Rip.
+1
I was about to say that same thing.
I love CS:GO, but I if I wanted to play CoD I would of bought it.
Next thing you know pro cod teams make CS:GO teams only using tec 9 and scouts
Coscosss a team with a few ex pro cod players actually played csgo near the start of it in NA called hold mouse one later renamed to curse and guess what they wrecked the NA scene at the time that was full of legends who have been playing counter strike for years and years... big surprise
this games a joke in contrast to 1.6
soloben2471 play 1.6 then, CS would be dead without GO mate.
soloben2471 It's a joke in contrast to all CS versions
Rizzla CS GO isn't CS.
CS required eco rounds, money management was a big deal. In CSGO that isn't relevant.
tec-9 1 hit headshot for $500 is honestly ridiculous. tell me i can get shut down with me $6000 buyout with m4 + nades + defuse kit. They should all be 2 hit headshots in exception to the deagle.
I think it should be 3.
no, then its a glock. it needs to be balanced. valve THOUGHT they did something after get_rights fucking stupid Nuke 360* falling headshot. (Tbh i didn't know a tec-9 was a cheaper inaccurate deagle at the time)
but they just changed the range of it, not completely solving the problem.
The solution to be had here is to *INCREASE ACCURACY* and *DECREASE DAMAGE*
(And this should be for all pistols in exception to the deagle.)
p250 1 shots close range and the m4 doesnt?!?!?! wtf volvo pls fix
Tec-9 and Five-SeveN are the only pistols which are OP. Deagle is alright now, dualies are underpowered. Glock and USP/P2K are balanced and so is the P250. Just change the damage a bit and running accuracy heavily on the 5-7 and Tec-9 and it should be all fine.
Oh, and the CZ-75 is perfect now.
EDIT: Tec-9 is heavily OP, while the Five-SeveN is just a bit too good.EDIT2: I wrote accuraccy. :(
I agree with everything, though I think five-seven is fairly balanced atm.
Arviga JokeR Five Seven is OP. It is as good as a rifle.
Arviga JokeR Yeah 5-7 is definitely too good. Great running accuracy, and amazing damage. B is pretty well on lock-down if you have a 5-7 and head armor, and you play car on Dust II. Of course this is more of a problem at lower ranks. But still. Tec-9 and 5-7 both need a running accuracy debuff, Tec-9 more than the 5-7 obviously. Just my 2 cents.
Arviga JokeR Otherwise yes, but having the firepower of M4 in close range in a $500 pistol is OP.
DFF wormi Five seven is pretty amazing at medium range as well
Utterly agree with you Thorin! And I think they try to make CSGO less skilled game, to be more tempting for all gamers, like COD...
Haris Gr yeah thats exactly my thought...
Haris Gr im fucking scared of that...the update definitely is a sign they wanna go in that direction
i hope they reversed the smg boost, run n gun is unacceptable in Counter Strike...
Haris Gr After watching TheWarOwl's vid on run and gun I had my fears of CD becoming casual.
"Clit size is a problem..."
+Ash Scott Shout out to Chyna.
every video i sware
LMFAO
its really cool to have someone like Thorin in the CS community. One of a kind. Keep it UP man!
Did he go to the solarium with an aviator sunglasses on?
hahhahahahhhaahhahaha
I keep coming back to this video, the way thorin describes the pistols in 1.6 is so captivating.
Valve are literally just trying to cater to the noob. They are reducing the skull cap of this game so much.
*skill
Counter-Strike was always a casual game, though.
Long story short, the way pistols work make these Pistol Rounds about completely random movement. Pistols should be about aim battles just like Gun Rounds, yet for some reason Valve doesn't want it to be that. Then you get things like buffing SMG's randomly when they were fine just the way they were, and instead of helping the people who just got wrecked by Tec-9s, whoever won the pistol is going to pick up these SMG's and have a completely insane bank in 2 rounds as long as they don't fuck up bad. As pro players and the community have stated, its ruining the meta of the game. Change SMG's back, make Tec-9 and Five Seven weaker, and make movement accuracy a thing of the past.
Btw great video as usual Thooorin.
The way I see it -
Tec-9:
Moving accuracy changed to closely resemble Desert Eagle spam accuracy
Drop ammo from 24 to 20
Drop armored headshot damage to 85 requiring two headshots to kill
CZ-Auto:
Slow firerate slightly (550 RPM, currently 600)
Flip Chest/Arm and Abdomen/Pelvis damage values to encourage headshot attempts (with armor, Abdomen takes 31 and Chest takes 25 currently)
Five-Seven:
Magazine reduced to 15 rounds (going to 10 makes it a fairly pointless buy compared to the P2K or USP)
Increase movement inaccuracy to decrease accurate range to 11m (currently 14m, on par with P250)
That should address most of the IMMEDIATE issues with pistol balance.
Isn't it wierd that the most expensive pistol is pretty much the worst one?
TuneEdits Just because it's incredibly skill based doesn't make it bad. I've used the Deag to great effect in force buy rounds before. People are just used to spamming while running :P
Toastie Toasterton Well if you compare the overall efficiency(regardless of skill) of the deagle with something like the tec-9, there is a obvious difference.
Well if we're disregarding skill, then the ak is worse than the m4a1 because it's got harder recoil to manage. The deagle isn't bad, and it's worth its pricetag.
well ak is onehit headshot. making it viable for pushing. the deagle is well balanced. but in comparison to the tec-9 it isn't. the deagle fires slow, has high recoil and a small clipsize. the tec-9 has almost as much damage as the deagle plus high accuracy while moving, big clipsize, high firerate and a lower price. if the deagle was better(which i should be for the higher price) pros would use it more.
also in comparison to the fiveseven. the fiveseven has high accuracy, firerate, clipsize and pretty much a onehit headshot.
The P250 is a onehit headshot. which makes the deagle even less viable.
You make alot of great valid points.
Keep up the good in depth analysts
Tec 9 Armour > anything
As someone who plays cs since 2000(not comp) I don't agree that 1.6 was uber balanced. It is and it isn't. It is not balanced because not all weapons are balanced. in 1.6 people only used glock usp deagle mp5 m4a1 ak-47 awp. Thats like less than half of the weapons in the game. At least CSGO is trying to involve other weapons. It makes sence to buy galil or famas or aug or sg. It makes sence to buy other weapons. Like nova is a beast on anti eco. So is mac-10, mp7 ump-45 p90 etc etc. I won't argue that the pistols are OP and its stupid that a pistol does more damage or even can 1 shot yet m4 can't. But I think that they shouldn't try to follow 1.6 model. I think they should use it for reference but they should stick to involving all guns in game. Maybe make weapons more segregated. Like usp is good for long distance and p250 is better close range. then they should further segregate it with other weapons.
Good point. I did use only few weapons in 1.6 while in CSGO I'm using around 60% of the arsenal.
Olterior agree with most of your opinion.
but i don't think every gun have to be balanced in the game because some are situational gun and some guns are made only for entertaining purpose like Negev, M249.
But what's the point of having more guns?
I mean okay it's good to have a mag 7 and maybe 1-3 smgs but they shoud be very situational. I think thooorin did a video about this as well :)
+Olterior famas is like such a top notch cs 1.6 weapon that people slept trough it's unbelievable. the burst-fire famas is some scary long range shiz
+Olterior
SENSE*
More than a year later and still no pistol fix... amazing
i literally armor tec9/five-seven over the famas/smg every eco-round. That is how ridiculous these pistols are. If you have good one-click accuracy the the pistol is the way to go.
famas - 2 shot head shot, 25 bullets
tec9 - 2 shot head shot (1 shot close range) 24 bullets, moves faster, get tagged less
five-seven - 2 shot head shot (1 shot close range) 20 bullets, moves faster, get tagged less
tec9/five-seven - 1500+ cheaper than famas/galil
WHAT GUN WILL YOU CHOOSE
I applause to this! This pretty much sums up what is wrong with the game. Unfortunately most of the new players don't realize coz the're coming from cod or world of tanks and don't know shit about competitive counter-strike. But that doesn't stop them from having an loud opinion on reddit or hltv demanding more randomness
they play like their fucking W key is stuck and there's literally no way to counter it if they get close range. it's really frustrating for AWPers
Have you guys ever noticed that Thooorin's face kinda looks like a pink and white panda? Like a basic pinkish complexion coupled with white panda-eye marks.
Back before the cz was introduced was the best power level for pistols. The P250 was the pistol of choice, but the rest were bought on occasion. With armor, they had a strict advantage against SMGs, and against rifles, they had a challenging - but not impossible - round.
I agree with you fully that pistols should take much more skill to use. I agree that the current run and spray random playstyle that pistols encourage is not a good thing. However, I do think that pistols should remain very powerful while taking more skill to use. Gameplay that is based on huge amounts of momentum(i.e. winning one round and basically getting another free round out of it) is a very bad thing. It encourages less comebacks, more teams getting locked out economically, much more predictable rounds, and less options for the losing team. In this sense half/armor+pistol buys are quite exciting and not because they are random and lack skill for winning rounds.(19:36) Pistols should take a good amount of skill to use and be able to kill riflers. One of the things I love about CS:GO is that every round can go either way. A team with an economic advantage always has a decent chance for their momentum to be lost which is something I think Valve did a very good job with in CS:GO than older games. In my opinion, the likelihood of a team getting eco'd on a full buy should be about 35-40%, which is about what the likelihood is currently. 21:06 I couldn't agree with more. However, while I don't think you said, "All of the pistols other than the deagle shouldn't be able to kill a rifler with one bullet" or "The pistols should be way less powerful", it really felt like you wanted pistol balance from the old games to return which I disagree with. One of the major strong points with CS:GO is that the pistols are so powerful.
tl:dr pistols should be strong but not random or easy to use imo
I agree in 100% in this thought...
I observe this problem some time ago... this is for me also reason why VP is so random... why? because they do not have response for eco rounds and lost a lot of pistol rounds ;) taz eagle does not exists like at 1.6... he was one of the best users of this gun... same thing with neo
nice work Thorin^^
You nailed it Throin. Valve are sacrificing balance/competitive integrity for excitement. Excitement draws crowds, crowds draw money. Money makes valve happy. Best strat currently. Buy flashes and tech 9. Win every round.
Time to go back to 1.6 boys and girls.
Love these types of videos. Keep them coming! You are one of the best content makers for csgo :)
Tec 9 armour rushes late into a round (like after 40 seconds pass) are really OP with 2 -3 flashes before entry. I've seen most easily abused on Cache where T-side entry points are small and easy to group.
The way I see it -
Tec-9:
Moving accuracy changed to closely resemble Desert Eagle spam accuracy
Drop ammo from 24 to 20
Drop armored headshot damage to 85 requiring two headshots to kill
CZ-Auto:
Slow firerate slightly (550 RPM)
Flip Chest/Arm and Abdomen/Pelvis damage values to encourage headshot attempts (with armor, Abdomen takes 31 and Chest takes 25)
Five-Seven:
Magazine reduced to 15 rounds (going to 10 makes it a fairly pointless buy compared to the P2K or USP)
Increase movement inaccuracy to decrease accurate range to 11m (currently 14m, on par with P250)
That should address most of the IMMEDIATE issues with pistol balance.
I always tell my fd five seven is underrated, nice that thorin covered this pistol:D
Another great thesis about this subject. Good work.
Lmao it's like a year old
always enjoy these thoorins thoughs man
They should give the duelies somekind of buff (or nerf every other)
like more standing/running accurary or jumpshot like scout or something different than the others
the gun stats should remain the same because we don't need another armor piercing gun
I suggest that they swapped the accurary of dualies with tec9 AND fiveseven
So that you could run like crazy with the dualies like you do with tec but not make those crazy 1hs kills and make the dualies actually usable and make use for the 30 bullets there are.
And that would make give tec-9 rushes almost useless and focus more on precise headshots (dualies has the best first shot accurary of the pistols)
giving the fiveseven more standing accurary doesn't change much because it's almost perfectly accurate now it would just take away the 5-7 eco rushes
irou95 duelies are just against the very logic of the game. You cannot shoot while moving, you cannot shoot while doing some other thing, and you cannot shoot with one hand.
+Tolga Elbay CS GO isn't realistic, it's tactical for sure but whether or not someone shoots with two weapons in the game doesn't really matter since it doesn't aim to be a milsim.
Csgo is encouraging unskilled play so casuals have an easier time being good so they continue to play the game
FIXING THIS ISSUE: Remove all running accuracy. Done, order restored!
enlighten me..
ADAD isnt the problem with tec 9. the problem is that you can 5 man rush a person holding with a rifle holding in w.. ADAD is a problem for pistol rounds
agree, but adad, as you say can be used with a rifle as well, so it keeps the rifle advantage of choosing spray or tap with adad. So the balance is most affected by the running acc
I like how nobody used the tec 9 before the cs nerf and afterwards even though the tec 9 has not changed everybody is saying it's super over powered.
Except the tec9 recieved consecutive buffs for like 3 patches.
Nice generalization. I have been telling everyone to ditch the CZ for the Tec9 while everyone was complaining about it. It's a limited sample size, but I would be wrecking CZ players fairly comfortably. The CZ outshined the Tec9 in a lot of ways, but now that it's out of the picture the Tec9 has been realized.
Though, we never heard about any imbalance of the 5-7 until now, but I guess that's because every single CT used the CZ instead of the 5-7 so they never really noticed it. But coming from a person who never liked the CZ, I am glad people have finally seen the power in these other two pistols. It's about damn time.
ikr, everyone thinks they buffed it, they did for like a week when it was super op then reverted it. I think it was just so people started using that, as the cz was always the favourite. The mp7 was probably the least used smg aswell & now they buffed that to counter the pistols rushes some think, but I also think because it wasn't often used. They need to rework the way damage dropoff works & then make the rifles 1 shot hs at close range imo. The amount it costs & the fact a p250 is better close range is dumb.
Idk what rank youve been playing but every one of decent rank has been abusing the tec9 for months....
I always used tec-9 over cz
I remember back in 1.6 only 3 pistols were ever used, glock, usp and deagle. Crazy
I follow the competitive scene since 2004, watched lots of CS1.6 matches back in the day. To be honest I like the variations of weapons we have in csgo, in 1.6 all the eco rounds were basically throwaway rounds, that's why back in the day every fragmovie had a significant number of clips of a CT getting 5 kills in one spray (because the terrorists had no options of buying a effective SMG or a pistol cheaper than degle) so the terrorist most of the time executed the suicide 5 man rush.
Out of the first 15 rounds of the 1st half, ONLY the fullbuys were worth watching in 1.6 (and I'm talking about the top teams back in the day), ecos were considered lost rounds 90% of the time.
I still think the pistols needs a slight rebalanced in csgo, but I don't think CS1.6 was the perfect model to be followed.
I cannot favorite and like this video enough.
i actually agree with this entire video, ive been playing csgo since beta and i was completely oblivious of how op and ridiculous it is the a 3200$ colt cant kill u with head armor in one shot but a 300$ p250 the, in all honesty, a distant player can spam and get the kill off a full kited ct. its unbalanced and unfair. great video man
Thank you for these videos my friend!
wow you're really going mental with these video releases
I know it's not that important, but it's not a clip. It's a magazine!
By far the best and most on point video to date.
I cannot express my dislike for how ridiculous pistols are in this game
I agree with everything in this video. A change is needed and its needs to happen soon. Rather than changing the meta of the game to accommodate OP pistols, they should fix the real issues and balance out their game. A thing to add to what you said Thoorin, I think a large part of this issue derives from aim punch with pistols.
As it stands, if you are being shot at and have no armor, the aim punch is ridiculous. You can aim at the feet and have your shots got straight into the sky. In order the balance this issue I believe valve have increased the movement accuracy and damage to give the ecoing team a chance to get a kill, but all it has really done is take away the skill required to use a pistol and made getting kills with a pistol (without armor) extremely luck based, as your aim/recoil is punched into the sky and a lot of the time you get these ridiculous headshots while strafing, even at long range.
In addition to the unbalanced aim punch, movement accuracy and damage, at close range the five-seven, Tec9 AND the P250 are a 1 shot to the head, which I find absolutely ridiculous. The only pistol that should 1 shot a fully armored opponent is a desert eagle, as the rest of the gun is effectively balanced and costs $700, compared to the $300-$500 for other pistols.
Not only does this effect your regular eco round where people may buy a p250 with a flash (or any other pistol for that matter) it encourages people to buy armor with a pistol as trying to use a pistol without armor is extremely inconsistent and luck based, which leads to the problems you have stated with force buying etc.
TLDR:
- A major underlying problem with pistols is aim punch.
- Moving accuracy and damage is OP
- The only pistol that should be capable of a 1 headshot kill is a desert eagle.
- Thoorin is a thug and drinks out of multiple cups because why not.
Tec-9 shoots 9x19mm
Glock-18 shoots 9x19mm
why there is damage differential, I'll never know... :/
Blake Gress You won`t find much logic with valve lol
FEC Kampfkuchen Sure there's logic behind it... Counterstrike just isnt a simulation/realism game, it's an esport. I'm not really defending the current state of pistols tho...
Blake Gress asking for realism in a game where you pull out knife to run faster .... :D
Tec has a longer barrel.
IRL that doesn't make that much of a difference, but that's the only thing that varies between the pistols.
But that falls apart when you look at the subguns and their 6-10'' barrels and how they perform relative to pistols that use the same ammo.
Barrel length.
In 1.6 the only thing that sucked about the Pistol-Ecos...they where very obviously lost, now you can win more with pistols which makes watching more fun
Five Seven, Tec-9, CZ and P250 need an armor penetration Nerf so they cant 1 hit kill through helmet.
Also increase spread while moving so they need to be mostly stationary to get precise shots
At least we can see more than 7 guns used in this game now. Btw in css we rarely saw more than 6 guns because there was no tagging and this made the glock the weakest piece of trash.
In my opinion, they should remove the animation from the CZ and raise the kill reward back to $300. Wont make it any more powerful, just make it more viable as an sidearm. Recoil and damage is just fine to keep it balanced.
+DoublePortalInc In my opinion they should buff the animation just a bit and keep the reward low. It is a good weapon for eco rounds vs full buy. Recoil and damage are fine.
I queued as a 5 man on ESEA not long ago and we got overpass as the map. The entire t-side we only used tec-9's. Bought them every single round and tec-9 armoured every round except pistol. We won that half 12-3 and then won the game 16-3.
nice i really looked forward to this one
I hope someone from Valve sees this, Thorin is so correct it's not even funny. I still play CS:GO like it 1.6 still because those aspects of taking your time to shoot were very rewarding. Now I've tried going CS:GO style on people more lately and im blown away by some of the kills I manage to get.
pistols in cs:go are great, they give teams way better chances to comeback and are the reason we constantly have those close epic games which go 16:14 or overtimes so often !
you know it's typically thorin when he takes a sip of his drink whenever the f*ck he feels like it.
yeah thorin i agree 100%. the skill ceiling in 1.6 was so much bigger and like you said 100 times cs go doesnt require the same amount of skill. i think the problem is that csgo is trying to be to much like battlefield and COD with this stupid just run and gun style instead of using the controlled technique. the movement speed and pistol accuracy is ridiculous, if your standing on a tight corner they can pop out n instant 1 bullet hs u and you have about .2 of a second to react and its so frustrating to play against. economy doesnt really mean anything anymore. all these people complaining about 1.6 obviously werent around for it because it was what started all this competitive fps and it was so much more of a balanced game. the better team would almost always win and it was just better to watch.
I always called the Deagle and Tec-9 the guns with "quantum dinks" - there's a little area of probability where you can just run and spam and get headshots with zero aim.
In an interview at Winter Dreamhack 2014 "Its normal to win eco rounds... 50-50 in my opinion" "The Five-Seven is already good enough... you don't need CZ in the game" - Xizt
next update will feature rocket launchers
To be honest I'm enjoying seeing ct take up smg's if they win the pistol round so they can match the pistol/armor t buy for mobility. It's a different meta which keeps things interesting.
Also for the pistols to "win" usually involves fast peaks and instant head shots and thusly rewards skill. Making them utter garbage just means the rifled camping at range and spraying them down with very little fear which for me is more dull
Some of this holds true YEARS LATER, for instance, the Five Seven is OP to this day.
not nearly as bad as before though
No it's not lol
4:40 5:39 9:52 10:54 18:31 21:36
1.6 deagle had 100% accuracy while strafing on first bullet of each clip
USP, Glock P250 and the Dualies and the Deagle are fine. But the 3 controversial guns at the $500 slot (not the Dualies) it should really be like normally a 15% chance to win an eco but with pistol armour buys or even eco rounds are normally a 40% chance to win an eco and basically breaks the economy system in this game. everyone can force buy EVERY ROUND like a silver which encourages a low tactical and skill ceiling to the game which is infuriating having idiots YOLO the shit out of this stuff because of overpowered CHEAP guns. #cspistolnerf
Coscosss the cz is actually fine, it sucks on long ranges
Ranjid Al Ackbar
Nuke, Inferno, Cache.
3 CT sided maps that it's incredibly easy to hold close range as CT
It's absolutely not a 40% chance to win, you should watch some pro matches, pistols get fucked.
*****
Wow, 50% more than 1 out of 10?
So now they win 1.5 out of 10? ok I agree, WAY OP.
Yea I do have to agree that the Five-Seven is really broken, as someone who literally just uses it over anything if you have good aim you can literally kill three to four people in a rush. I think Valve should consider adding the golden gun from Goldeneye64 for the T's that should balance the game
the p250 is rather strong aswell, especially considering that it costs 300 bucks and can oneshot somebody with a helmet... but the pistol thing is a problem in general and a really big one on mirage t-side imo because it has b apartments leading to van leading to bomb side leading to bench which is all close range... its been quite a while since i was on t side, lost the first round and the team agreed that we should eco... everyone buys armor and tec 9s and one guy buys 2 flashes and then you just rush apartments, first flash over it, 2nd flash bounced off the wall and then just rush down the guy at van/bench... he will be completely blind and if he is lucky he can fall back a bit just to get spammed at by 4 tec 9s which pretty much means he is dead, maybe he'll get a kill or 2 but now its 3v1 on B, one of the ts will have an smg or even worse a rifle and they will get the bomb down and as a t you can stand close to every entrance to b bomb side so defending it with tec 9s is far from impossible... i have to admit that it feels great to do it as a T because usually losing the pistol in solo competitive means you have to play 2 rounds with the odds stacked against you but i also know how annoyed and pissed you get when 3 guys are just rushing out and one of them gets the lucky dink... volvo please fix
Great video once again, you didn't mention the ADAD spam when using pistols though, do you not feel like this is a problem in CS:GO or did you just forget to mention it?
a year ago, and everything is still up
Yea GJ Thorin ... Lets use only 5 weapons ( m4 , ak , glock , usp , awp ) and make everything useless like it used to be on CS 1.6 , Also i agree that CT - T pistols are not balanced ... usp can 1 shot on any range without armor while glock is less accurate and need 2 headshots or 6 bodyshots ...
The only thing that is still kind of ridiculous with the cz is the first shot accuracy. But then again, it doesn't one shot headshot at midrange.
remove tec-9, remove cz-75, remove five-seven - p250 as the only eco weapon, then i'll be happy
Kristofuz No. Just fix all the pistols.
Kristofuz
As much as I'd love that to happen, it wont.
My idea was $500 P250, $800 5-7/CZ/Tec9
This makes forcebuying harder and SMGs a lot more useable without making them OP like they are now.
The amount of times Thorin said "clit" rather than "clip" in this video.
well, your arguments seem legit, but the true is that the overall balance is quite good this days. ALL teams favor the m4/ak/awp over having TEC9s with utility in EVERY ROUND. i think the percentage of won eco rounds is very good/dynamic at least for the pro players.
The problem is, you shouldn't be able to have a $300 or $500 weapon that out performs a $3100 because you can instantly kill someone while running, with a headshot.
Quite good is not good enough and buffing rifles would make the game a insta gib fest. Pistols need a damage nerf and smgs a clip nerf in my oppinion.
imagine a big costly tank drives into an insurgent urban city and gets blown away by a 100 dollar rpg. so why do tanks exist? because they are very effective if they are used for what they are built for! if you have an awp you dont go into close distance battles against rushings tec9s unless you use a surprise tactic in a few cases.
this principle is used by strategic games very often (rpg very good against tanks, very weak against rifle men, etc). it makes the game more strategic. my opinion.
Phil Langer I totaly agree to that. If you use it right you should not worry at all.
The rebalance is one reason why many bangable walls and doors stop all but sniper bullets now. If i protect b on inferno for example i do not even try to make direct shots. I bang through the corner because any silver can give you a prefire headshot at random if you stand wide open.
That is an interesting analogy except that you are forgetting the fact that a shot from a tank should and will kill the man with an rpg. In cs the "tank" requires 2 shots to kill the man with the "rpg" this should not be the case at close range anyways
I think something that needs to be said is, they need to have roles for these weapons. If theres no reason to use a weapon, then it might as well not be there. I think thats what valve is trying to do, give each weapon a use. That being said, I do agree, the whole gun balance overall needs to be reworked, starting with the pistols. You can't have the five-seven and p250 a 1 shot headshot up close and not the m4. You also can't make the m4 a 1 shot headshot because thats the advantage the ak47 has that terrorists rely on for entry frags. There needs to be a reason to buy these guns but it needs to be reworked overall, not just a bandaid fix on a couple guns.
I'm not talking about reworking the m4 and the ak, theyre fine. I was just using that as an example of why the p250 shouldnt be a 1 shot headshot up close. Heres how I would change the pistols: make the starting pistols have better armor pentration (make them a little more viable on eco rounds), nerf the p250 to a 2 shot hs at close range but give it an extra clip, give the five seven and tec9 slightly worse running accuracy and raise the cost of all the luxury pistols by 100 dollars excluding the dualies.
Thats what I'm saying, encourage full saving but make it so that if you do its still possible to win a round with the proper team play, because as I see it right now, it wouldnt be.
In 1.6 the D-eagle was taht expansive Israëlian pistol with 8 amo instead of 7 in the magzine.
It's always funny to look back at the absolute hysteria surrounding the pistols back in the day.
2 years later and these problems are still around...
Teams need to know how to counter the pistols, not with just weapons, but positioning and teamwork. I personally don't agree with all your points, I do not see competitive play with everyone just using pistols as primaries. If you take down an eco team, that was done using skill, and if an eco team takes down a geared team that was done with skill. The pistols don't shoot by themselves to the head (BOOM HEADSHOT!). Yes, pistols have a nice movement advantage. Yes, the pistols can get some kills that they "shouldn't". But everyone has pistols. And when people have money they typically use primary weapons. Enjoyed your video, enjoyed your opinions, and I don't believe you're incorrect, just stating my opinion as well. Thanks =)
Love your videos m8
the glock close range was a beast . but i still bought usp on t sides lol
The run n' gun and 'everybody is a winner' mentality has to go. Good video once again, why can't Valve make the right decisions. People should stop buying keys and supporting unbalanced game.
This is why CS GO ranks have such huge skill gaps, some people prefer the hard way(high skill weapons) and some others prefer the easy way(P90,tek8,auto,sg), but in the end of the day both get together in the same rank... braindead p90 spammers and actually decent ak-47 aimers...
rip P90
I really really disagree with most of what Thooorin says. I've been playing CS since 2001 and the main issue with the game to me has always been the fact that only 4 weapons have really been used in professional games, ak, m4, awp and the deagle.
The fact that Valve is trying to make pistols, and smgs more viable is something I'm really happy about. Heck, even shotguns and LMGs should be more viable! Make them situational, so that they excel in very particular scenarios, but make the extremely good at that! I'd love to see SMG strats from pro teams! Sure it'd be gambling but thats what makes the game exciting and fun to watch / play.
Variety is the key to make a game long lasting, and if you love / support Counter Strike, you have to stop complaining about how 1.6 was better. CS is now popular more than ever, and variety cannot hurt it!
More competitive maps, and more viable weapons, and maybe brand new weapons is what I want to see.
This is still an issue in 2018, the glock can just run spam, the USP is basically a run spamming deagle on pistol rounds, its a mess, i want all moving penalties to pistols and SMG's move up to the same level as rifles.
Edit: 2023, new game and still the same issue.
I love you so much Duncan
There is something about the p250 that just tickles me from all the right places. It's the only pistol i'm consistently good with. And it's just 300. To me, it's my favourite pistol, and best.
So in an ideal world where the pistols are as you described where do you see smgs? And when would people use them rather then saving for a buy? And with galil/famas being so close to that price range too.
Are they just a gamble to get more money if you get kills or the 2nd round buy if you win 1st round?
Love your vids btw.
Great points
"clip size"... someone please link this on /k/
Starting to feel like the only way this could get better without the competitive support from Valve is to do what pros do for call of duty where there is a different ruleset between MM and pro games. Example, certain guns and perks are not allowed. Although this would hurt the growth of the game.
Thorin
i think one reason that Valve make pistols so powerful in CSGO because of an implementation of aimpunch that make eco round un-winnable.
Instead of removing aimpunch, they decided to make pistol OP to make pistol+armor forced buy viable in this game.
Can't agree more with this video. I've always said the 5-7 is OP, but nobody will notice or ask for it to get nerfed because weapons like the Tec9 are more OP currently. The 5-7 is god awful and exactly what I feared would happen happened, they 'nerfed' one of the pistols but not the other.
Does Thorin ever actually play csgo in person because I never saw.. He's a historian ik that not hating but I've been into csgo since last year did he play 1.6?
Thorin IS cs ! and yes he played.
I've been into 1.3 the one version where jump-duck era dominates. pistol/d-eagle has been like that.. Thoorin knows what he is saying. he's fucking veteran at analyzing a game.
And is it relevant? I play cs since 1.0 and don't know 1/10 of his ingame knowledge...
I find hilarious that 'gamers' tend to think that if someone don't play the game automatically means that he doesn't have the ingame knowledge to infer into it.
It's like saying that a music critic doesn't have the right to infer into music because he don't play a instrument well; or a food critic for not being a chef; or a movie critic not being a director.
I sincerely don't know if people are naive or dumb.
Kids saying they've been playing since 1.0 or 1.3 and are complete bullshit and even have incorrect facts.
Ziamangry as far I remember CS 1.0 1.3 released almost 16 years ago. they/we are not kids anymore. get your facts right kiddo.
There needs to be a chance to win ecos, unlike 1.6. We need to grow up out of this 1.6 era where ecos were never won.
I agree it's crap when you can 1 hit-hs with a pistol where the opponent has head armour (par the obvious exception of the deagle).
What if the DEagle and Tec-9 swapped place in the buy menu (and increase the Tec-9's cost to $800)?
I agree with this video.
everybody are still playing the same game, if pistols are stronger than they used to be and if people can use more than 3 gun then thats the way it is. Its not helping a certain team to win everything. Its always balanced in csgo because whatever enemy does to you, you can technically do the same on the second half. Everybody are comparing GO with 1.6 and i have never played it but i can't believe its so perfect as people say it was. personally i think pistols are fine, tec9 maybe still a little too op. I would just focus on nerfing the smgs a little.
Make all pistols (except for the deagle) a 2 hit hs kill and reduce running accuracy is all valve needs to do in my opinion to make the pistols balanced
Bye bye usp 1 taps on pistol round :(
Thooorin got so riled up, that he forgot vulcun outro, gg.
not only the pistols encourage skillless play, so much comes down to movement and in CS:GO right know there is no movement which encourages skillful or competitive gameplay
The accuracy of moving shots was mentioned a lot. To be honest, I think the accuracy while moving is too accurate, Idk if thats just me. Same thing with jumping. i.e. the scout, smgs, etc.