From my perspective as a game developer I suspect that it might be that more players to simulate = slightly different (lower) framerate on the server = different physics simulation. When you play by yourself it's likely quite consistent.
Aye, non-deterministic physics will do that to a simulation. It's totally fine for regular gameplay, but when building no-input tracks you very quickly run into the butterfly effect.
@@WeaselDev Unity Havok only works in 2019+ and when using DOTS, so not with regular Unity GameObjects. (Which is pretty typical for unity, adding new features that don't work with existing projects). Zeepkist has been in development since 2018 and just uses regular gameobjects. Converting everything to 2019+ DOTS Havok would be about as much work as just making a new game entirely 😵
Couldn't do it in Unity until the dev was already well on his way, and retrofitting it now would be basically as much work as starting over. Game's still a massive, resounding YES though.
@@conrrr Because it's a pain in the behind to do and in most scenarios it does not matter. Where it does make a difference, it's great, but that's a minority of games.
@@conrrr most games aren't scientifically accurate, most games use non deterministic physics, and most dynamic physics solutions for game engines are nondeterministic. The thing is even if you use deterministic physics the second you introduce an non deterministic factor into it, such as player input, the entire thing becomes non deterministic.
Apparently its just because unity ties the physics into the frame rate and the frame rate changes slightly in multiplayer. Not sure if this is true though but its a supposed normal unity problem.
@@kANGaming Yeah that sounds like unity. Frame based physics was so annoying for me to work with I actually switched over to bullet physics and unreal engine 5 (same as rocket league) for my projects.
@@kANGaming as far as I know unity calculates the physics 60 times per second regardless of the framerate exactly for this kind of issue. I would guess that on a server they might have lowered it to like 30 or something like that in order to ease on the server
Because you are playing a game with a dutch theming. Try to get some stroopwafels, meet with Kosmo, and try them while you film each other. Pro tipp alott of Dutch heat them in the steam of a cup of hot tea (black tea with Kandij) or hot Chocomel. PS.: I'm German but have Dutch ancestors and live near the German-Dutch border.
uh i think the shortcut doesnt work because the starting speed is not the same??? in singleplayer mode you got boosted to 177 but in multiplayer mode you only got boosted till 175. thats the only thing i think that screws up your shortcut
You landed left as your car did the revers halfpipe in the beginning. I think all you needed to do was to go a little bit on the right at the beginning or as you are on the half pipe (left for the car on the half pipe). That would allow you to go higher on the wall and then catch more air on the jump to make it to the hammers!
YES KAN! Please more of these buddy! I saw this on Kosmo's channel and I was like oh this game looks really fun..... Completely had no idea that you could do this kinda stuff with it. I had two really nice computers, one for gaming and one for important things like bills taxes expenses income savings and stocks including work and school docs, until about a year and a half ago when I pushed my PC for gaming too far and uh... I may have melted my PC... The bad thing is that I had it built kinda weird and custom and the fan actually stopped automatically when the PC did an overhead shutdown so.... It just kept melting... And melting... And bam today I have no gaming PC. :D? Please play this game more since I can't lol.
Ya he barely can do his troll 50% of the time in single player. That lowered to 0.5% in mutiplayer. He could not do the chess in only 10 mins even if he could repeat the track a 100 times in 10min. He needed 20mins to troll his friends.
2 years later the physics have changed enough that this is no longer a hands free track, but instead has 2 extremely difficult shortcuts that require precise speed control and perfect steering
Jupiter is primarily composed of hydrogen, but helium constitutes one-quarter of its mass and one-tenth of its volume. It likely has a rocky core of heavier elements,[16] but, like the other giant planets, Jupiter lacks a well-defined solid surface. The ongoing contraction of its interior generates heat greater than the amount received from the Sun. Because of its rapid rotation, the planet's shape is an oblate spheroid; it has a slight but noticeable bulge around the equator. The outer atmosphere is visibly segregated into several bands at different latitudes, with turbulence and storms along their interacting boundaries. A prominent result of this is the Great Red Spot, a giant storm known to have existed since at least the 17th century when telescopes first saw it. Surrounding Jupiter is a faint planetary ring system and a powerful magnetosphere. Jupiter's magnetic tail is nearly 800 million km (5.3 AU; 500 million mi) long, covering nearly the entire distance to Saturn's orbit. Jupiter has 80 known moons and possibly many more,[6] including the four large Galilean moons discovered by Galileo Galilei in 1610: Io, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto. Io and Europa are about the size of Earth's Moon; Callisto is almost the size of the planet Mercury, and Ganymede is even larger. Pioneer 10 was the first spacecraft to visit Jupiter, making its closest approach to the planet in December 1973.[17] Jupiter has since been explored on several occasions by robotic spacecraft, beginning with the Pioneer and Voyager flyby missions from 1973 to 1979, and later by the Galileo orbiter, which arrived at Jupiter in 1995.[18] In 2007, the New Horizons visited Jupiter using its gravity to increase its speed, bending its trajectory en route to Pluto. The latest probe to visit the planet, Juno, entered orbit around Jupiter in July 2016.[19][20] Future targets for exploration in the Jupiter system include the probable ice-covered liquid ocean of Europa.[21].
If you still have that track, a v minor, timed tap toward the right wall before the first track exit over the wall may correct initial positioning & let it work more reliably, positioning you for the rest of the run. Aim is to go over the wall an be more to the left (from car perspective) on the inverted run. That should place you to be affected by the half pipe more, lifting & adding to the barrel roll & kicking it closer to center for landing. From there, RNG.
The sandbox cart was very different from yours, it seemed less aero dynamic but more powerful. It might make sense that multi player carts have lower polygon counts.
My best guess is that you are now sharing the random numbers with everyone else so the seed/table may be the same but now the number are shared among more players
The problem is the latancy check so your position is being checked for variations between the other players and the server so in single player you dont have this delay in the physics.
Perhaps it calculates less velocity vectors per second in multiplayer which could cause some rounding errors the farther into the track you get. I know nothing about game design so this could just be gibberish
you could just create a secondary steam account, borrow zeepkist from your main account, (so you dont spend more money) and load a multiplayer match with your main and secondary. you just need to borrow a computer to do it if you dont already have an extra
I don't see how the lack of deterministic physics is a bonus for a racing game or any game for that matter, the lack of it kind of ruined the punch to this otherwise hilarious video.
Hi Kan, long time watcher, Zeepkist is Dutch for Soapbox, actually the Dutch E sounds more like an English A without th "i" sound in the end , so try to pronounce ZAAPKIST ;)
I still want to learn how to make good deterministic physics... I have a general idea (I think), but I don't know how to implement it. If anyone knows of a good resource to learn that, I would like to know about it if you want to share :)
from tech-bystander point of view here the game seemed slower/ slushier when Kan went multiplayer, I wonder if increased assets and players would make a more "mellowy" gameplay , cause it seems like there is no problem with the framerates but there are obvious discrepency btwn solo runs an multi. and it looks like a new kind of calculations for a game (like a TABS one)
the render framerate is consistent, but that doesn't mean the engine framerates are. What's happening is likely the network is skipping some physics update loops.
I bet someone has already commented this, but "zeep" is pronounced more like "zayp", where the "ee" is pronounced like the ay in "bay", so bayp - zayp. Kist sounds totally normal! I have the same issue with my name, which is the Dutch word for spoon. Everyone calls me "le-pel" as if it's French, while it's acually "lay-pel".
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
From my perspective as a game developer I suspect that it might be that more players to simulate = slightly different (lower) framerate on the server = different physics simulation. When you play by yourself it's likely quite consistent.
Physics in Unity are not framerate dependant tho. And unless they are poorly networked, sending them shouldn't change that.
Aye, non-deterministic physics will do that to a simulation. It's totally fine for regular gameplay, but when building no-input tracks you very quickly run into the butterfly effect.
@@fiets38 I'm pretty sure Unity supports Havok tho. They should probably try to switch to that for a multiplayer physic based racing game x)
It's still mostly the nondeterministic physics. In TM if you do the same thing, you'll get the exact same result each time, multiplayer or not.
@@WeaselDev Unity Havok only works in 2019+ and when using DOTS, so not with regular Unity GameObjects. (Which is pretty typical for unity, adding new features that don't work with existing projects).
Zeepkist has been in development since 2018 and just uses regular gameobjects. Converting everything to 2019+ DOTS Havok would be about as much work as just making a new game entirely 😵
So this is where the cheese began...
yup, and it wasn't even dappers idea.
kAN is such an instigator and spicy and I’m here for it 😂😂😂
Kan built a map to troll his friends, and the map ended up trolling Kan
He shall never beat dapper.
Never tell your friends about the troll.
"zeep kist" sounds awesome in English haha, and it literally means "soap box" in Dutch :) Looks like a fun game!!
GEKOLONISEERD!
GEKOLONISEERD!
GEKOLONISEERD!
GEKOLONISEERD!
GEKOLONISEERD!!
a physics based game with non-deterministic physics is either the premise of this game or a VERY BIG NO NO.
Couldn't do it in Unity until the dev was already well on his way, and retrofitting it now would be basically as much work as starting over.
Game's still a massive, resounding YES though.
Can't understand why you'd make a game like this, deterministic is the future
@@conrrr Because it's a pain in the behind to do and in most scenarios it does not matter.
Where it does make a difference, it's great, but that's a minority of games.
@@conrrr most games aren't scientifically accurate, most games use non deterministic physics, and most dynamic physics solutions for game engines are nondeterministic. The thing is even if you use deterministic physics the second you introduce an non deterministic factor into it, such as player input, the entire thing becomes non deterministic.
Ah, so they made Bad Rats into a racing game.
This is the day Dapper realize he could create cheese. It's all kAN's fault!
that's so weird how going multiplayer ruined the Hands Off track, maybe it's a latency issue or they changed the physics around slightly
Apparently its just because unity ties the physics into the frame rate and the frame rate changes slightly in multiplayer. Not sure if this is true though but its a supposed normal unity problem.
@@kANGaming ah y'know what that sounds reasonable
@@kANGaming Yeah that sounds like unity. Frame based physics was so annoying for me to work with I actually switched over to bullet physics and unreal engine 5 (same as rocket league) for my projects.
@@kANGaming It does however as far as I'm aware you can change this manually.
@@kANGaming as far as I know unity calculates the physics 60 times per second regardless of the framerate exactly for this kind of issue. I would guess that on a server they might have lowered it to like 30 or something like that in order to ease on the server
I'd love to see more like this, it's fun to watch even with wonky physics.
Zeepkist is the Dutch word for soapbox
Because you are playing a game with a dutch theming.
Try to get some stroopwafels, meet with Kosmo, and try them while you film each other.
Pro tipp alott of Dutch heat them in the steam of a cup of hot tea (black tea with Kandij) or hot Chocomel.
PS.: I'm German but have Dutch ancestors and live near the German-Dutch border.
I love seeing your videos pop up. Favorite creator on RUclips.
Amen brother
Indeed
Even better when you see the track pop up on the steam workshop and know there’s a video inbound
So this is where it began... who'd have thought that you'd befriend the dev of this game and invite him to your wedding?
uh i think the shortcut doesnt work because the starting speed is not the same??? in singleplayer mode you got boosted to 177 but in multiplayer mode you only got boosted till 175. thats the only thing i think that screws up your shortcut
Good pickup!
yeah it's because of the network lag not applying the boost for the same duration.
You landed left as your car did the revers halfpipe in the beginning. I think all you needed to do was to go a little bit on the right at the beginning or as you are on the half pipe (left for the car on the half pipe). That would allow you to go higher on the wall and then catch more air on the jump to make it to the hammers!
Just a tap to the left on the end of the half pipe
zeepkist is dutch for soapchest (litteraly) but its meant more like a soapbox
also: GEKOLONISEERD!
This is the start of "The Cheese"...
Where's the Cheese Kan?
Another Dutch dev, zeep (soap) kist (box)
eigenlijk is het het chest he maar: GEKOLONISEERD!
YES KAN! Please more of these buddy! I saw this on Kosmo's channel and I was like oh this game looks really fun.....
Completely had no idea that you could do this kinda stuff with it. I had two really nice computers, one for gaming and one for important things like bills taxes expenses income savings and stocks including work and school docs, until about a year and a half ago when I pushed my PC for gaming too far and uh... I may have melted my PC... The bad thing is that I had it built kinda weird and custom and the fan actually stopped automatically when the PC did an overhead shutdown so.... It just kept melting... And melting...
And bam today I have no gaming PC. :D? Please play this game more since I can't lol.
I guess this is a lesson to test the track out in a live setting with an accomplice beforehand.
Need a friends help to test mutiplayer.
Kan: I'm gonna troll my friends
Game: No you don't
Ya he barely can do his troll 50% of the time in single player. That lowered to 0.5% in mutiplayer. He could not do the chess in only 10 mins even if he could repeat the track a 100 times in 10min. He needed 20mins to troll his friends.
* The physics weren't filled with determination
The funny thing about it is that look at the first place and second place time KAn needed just one second
2 years later the physics have changed enough that this is no longer a hands free track, but instead has 2 extremely difficult shortcuts that require precise speed control and perfect steering
Zeepkist is Dutch for soapbox lmao
I love his attempt to pronounce it
@@brandonvdongen very true
he jongens GEKOLONISEERD!
Jupiter is primarily composed of hydrogen, but helium constitutes one-quarter of its mass and one-tenth of its volume. It likely has a rocky core of heavier elements,[16] but, like the other giant planets, Jupiter lacks a well-defined solid surface. The ongoing contraction of its interior generates heat greater than the amount received from the Sun. Because of its rapid rotation, the planet's shape is an oblate spheroid; it has a slight but noticeable bulge around the equator. The outer atmosphere is visibly segregated into several bands at different latitudes, with turbulence and storms along their interacting boundaries. A prominent result of this is the Great Red Spot, a giant storm known to have existed since at least the 17th century when telescopes first saw it.
Surrounding Jupiter is a faint planetary ring system and a powerful magnetosphere. Jupiter's magnetic tail is nearly 800 million km (5.3 AU; 500 million mi) long, covering nearly the entire distance to Saturn's orbit. Jupiter has 80 known moons and possibly many more,[6] including the four large Galilean moons discovered by Galileo Galilei in 1610: Io, Europa, Ganymede, and Callisto. Io and Europa are about the size of Earth's Moon; Callisto is almost the size of the planet Mercury, and Ganymede is even larger.
Pioneer 10 was the first spacecraft to visit Jupiter, making its closest approach to the planet in December 1973.[17] Jupiter has since been explored on several occasions by robotic spacecraft, beginning with the Pioneer and Voyager flyby missions from 1973 to 1979, and later by the Galileo orbiter, which arrived at Jupiter in 1995.[18] In 2007, the New Horizons visited Jupiter using its gravity to increase its speed, bending its trajectory en route to Pluto. The latest probe to visit the planet, Juno, entered orbit around Jupiter in July 2016.[19][20] Future targets for exploration in the Jupiter system include the probable ice-covered liquid ocean of Europa.[21].
Take a shot every time kan says non-deterministic physics
So, this is the origin story. 😂
This is what started it
I think it's the flailing arms that's making the run so different each time.
If you still have that track, a v minor, timed tap toward the right wall before the first track exit over the wall may correct initial positioning & let it work more reliably, positioning you for the rest of the run.
Aim is to go over the wall an be more to the left (from car perspective) on the inverted run. That should place you to be affected by the half pipe more, lifting & adding to the barrel roll & kicking it closer to center for landing. From there, RNG.
get prankt bro!
Now that you know the game better I think you should try this again, only on a new track where they aren't expecting it.
You might try a tiny bit of left turning after the checkpoint, should give a bit more height over the tree.
i feel like this is the villain origin story for dapper
The sandbox cart was very different from yours, it seemed less aero dynamic but more powerful. It might make sense that multi player carts have lower polygon counts.
Kan what's your favorite game to play with your friends?
Me: about to comment that he said zeepkist wrong
Me: realizes that this video was like 5 mnths ago
I smell some dutch in the name of the game😂🇳🇱
GEKOLONISEERD!
"How did you get that time??"
"I didnt do anything"
This inspired me to make my own box car
Kan you’ve helped me through a lot of sleepless nights
you know, i think you would be an amazing PF trackmania map maker, i kinda wanna see a vid of you with trackmania
Zeepkist looks dutch, probably pronounced like zeypkist
Buddy KaN forgot to link the friends he played with!
Bought the game because of this video, thank you!
I paused a few times when you restarted the track and the hammers were always in the same position; they do seem to reset when you do!
*Zeepkist* means Soapbox in English so thats a cool addition.
Fun fact
Zeepkist means soapbox in dutch
I figured out the physics. It pulls you more to the ground, and pulls any part of your car just a WEE bit towards other players in multiplayer.
He disguised the red ramp by adding another ramp as a prop
My best guess is that you are now sharing the random numbers with everyone else so the seed/table may be the same but now the number are shared among more players
the starting position could be slightly off in multiplayer
The problem is the latancy check so your position is being checked for variations between the other players and the server so in single player you dont have this delay in the physics.
Perhaps it calculates less velocity vectors per second in multiplayer which could cause some rounding errors the farther into the track you get. I know nothing about game design so this could just be gibberish
Early squad:)))
Btw, dutch dood here, you pronounce the title like: saypkist
I figured I was pronouncing it wrong lol
it litterally translates to soap box btw (also dutch dood here)
@@kANGaming lol
Very similar to the german word for soapbox.
holy crap thats amazing
Your test out the gate speed was 177 the mutiplayer speed was 175 something to consider (just now finding this)
Scrap man fan, but you have had awesome episodes on the evolve series.
you could just create a secondary steam account, borrow zeepkist from your main account, (so you dont spend more money) and load a multiplayer match with your main and secondary. you just need to borrow a computer to do it if you dont already have an extra
ziepkist lol (voor alle nederlanders er staat ook bouw op dat helmpie) (for all english people his hat says bouw wich is dutch for build)
Kan, the reason it worked earlier is because you was using a different vehicle.
A Dutch game, let's goo
Wow, I really like this new game!
Or not a new one?
i now know who hurt dapper
You are too kind to me 😂😊
Its so wierd hearing you say zeep kist
I don't see how the lack of deterministic physics is a bonus for a racing game or any game for that matter, the lack of it kind of ruined the punch to this otherwise hilarious video.
Yeah you can see the speed difference on the first starting straight. Single player you were going 177, multiplayer only 175.
‘Zeepkist’ is literally ‘soapbox’ in dutch.
(Soap=zeep, box=kist)
Good job bro
I like that this guy knows Trackmania :)
I actually in trackmania fastest way only so I had to see this
How does everybody turn so smoothly? I'm going left and right all over the place. And I know a bunch of these guys use keyboard
The moment you said best racing game, eh I don’t think so I play track mania. And then you compared it to it
Hi Kan, long time watcher, Zeepkist is Dutch for Soapbox, actually the Dutch E sounds more like an English A without th "i" sound in the end , so try to pronounce ZAAPKIST ;)
Zeepkist means soapbox in Dutch.
I still want to learn how to make good deterministic physics... I have a general idea (I think), but I don't know how to implement it. If anyone knows of a good resource to learn that, I would like to know about it if you want to share :)
Maby you all can try to test one track for multiplayer purposes
from tech-bystander point of view here the game seemed slower/ slushier when Kan went multiplayer, I wonder if increased assets and players would make a more "mellowy" gameplay , cause it seems like there is no problem with the framerates but there are obvious discrepency btwn solo runs an multi.
and it looks like a new kind of calculations for a game (like a TABS one)
the render framerate is consistent, but that doesn't mean the engine framerates are. What's happening is likely the network is skipping some physics update loops.
Zeepkist is soapbox in dutch !😎
You used the test car that's black with yellow checker on it
Useless fact: Zeepkist is Dutch for soapbox
Your voice sounds deeper on scrapman's channel for some reason.
When do you guys play during the day?
Does anyone have a link for this coarse? I found his helicopter one but can't find this one
at the first checkpoint the nose of the car lifts and you lose speed. but during the showcasing it did not do that.
Jeez 10 minutes ago didn't see that until 5 minutes into the video, wow I'm blind.
2:58 press forward maps
WHERES THE NEXT FRIKEN SCRAP MECHANIC CO-OP
GEKOLONISEERD
GEKOLONISEERD!
Who is Dr. Jongy Brongen? I don't see anyone of that name in your later recordings.
NOTIFICATION SQUAD! Can't wait for the laughs, based on the title. :D
Try moving the tree Ik it’s not a issue but it seems like you hitting the tree more then you landing an sliding
I bet someone has already commented this, but "zeep" is pronounced more like "zayp", where the "ee" is pronounced like the ay in "bay", so bayp - zayp. Kist sounds totally normal! I have the same issue with my name, which is the Dutch word for spoon. Everyone calls me "le-pel" as if it's French, while it's acually "lay-pel".
zeepkist is netherlands for soapbox.
fyi the name zeepkist actualy means soapbox in dutch
Watching the replay, you are coming off the starting boosts about 3-7 mph slower making the jump highly
Likely to fail.
It could be the cart
Isn't zeepkist litteraly the Dutch word for soapbox?
Yes
@@peppy5121 it's always funny when non Dutch people try to pronounce Dutch words lmao
jep GEKOLONISEERD!
If you want a better pronounciation of Zeepkist, try reading Zeep as Zape & kist like how you pronounce gist, but with a hard k instead of a g.