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What is Converge?
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- Опубликовано: 14 авг 2024
- Converge is a growing Baptist denomnination when many denominations are declining. Who are they, and what do they believe?
00:00 History
02:11 Name Change
03:05 Major Doctrines
03:29 Ordinances
04:19 Scripture
04:35 Creation & Evolution
05:30 Salvation
06:24 Calvinism
06:57 Sanctification, Holy Spirit
07:19 Charismatic Views
11:54 End Times/Eschatology
13:31 Human Sexuality
14:33 Family & Marriage
15:19 Abortion, Worship Style, Alcohol
16:56 Tithing
17:20 Open Theism, Religious Liberty
18:25 Human Relations & Worth
20:04 Unity in Diversity
21:57 An Affluent Church in a Hungry World
22:34 War
23:18 Theological Feel
23:29 Church Polity
24:27 Women in Ministry
25:25 Fellowship & Statistics
Wow. I have been following the Ready to Harvest videos for quite a while, as I have never before really been interested in denominationalism. I was raised in the Presbyterian church, saved in a Fundamentalist church, and worshipped regularly in evangelical Presbyterian, charismatic, Evangelical Covenant, Liebenzoeller, Southern Baptist, Methodist, Calvary Chapel, and indeterminate Baptist churches all over the world. My view on doctrine includes the idea that only a few ideas are really essential (e.g., the five “solos”), and that many controversial differences are really the same truth viewed from different angles (“the elect” versus “free will”; Arminianism vs. Calvinism). While I consider that I am Calvinistic, I am not comfortable with some interpretations of Calvinism. I have to say that this description of the doctrines of Converge is really attractive to me. I am especially appreciative of their idea of diversity. God has led me to have to interact with many different cultures and I feel nothing but enriched by that experience and feel that Christians who lack such interaction are missing something vitally important. My most recent church had some 40+ nationalities, and one Gospel, one Savior, and it was so beautiful.
Thank you for doing a video on the denomination I pastor in. You covered the subject fairly and well.
Why embarrased t be Baptist?
As a general Baptists does converge officially hold to osas or conditional security? Thanks
I'm leery of any denomination that is so wishy-washy it leaves so many important decisions to individuals. I do understand that there are many people who prefer a church that doesn't "dictate" or "think for" its members but there are so many "choices" that shouldn't be choices because the Scripture clearly instructs in the matter.
Much of scripture is held in tension, eg., Matthew 15:
For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say that if anyone says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever you would have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’ 6he need not honor his father or mother with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
There are a lot of truths that seemingly oppose other truths. The reason many churches don't exactly agree on everything is because Scripture does not clearly instruct on every possible stance. Denominational splits come from disagreements on what, "Scripture clearly instructs", when it seems so clear to both parties.
Converge has not embraced liberalism and is not advocating against the sincerely clear Scriptural truths, such as opposition to same-sex union. I am glad that they allow a measure of freedom to their churches, as a disagreement over speaking in tongues should never be as divisive as a disagreement over whether Jesus came in the flesh. It makes sense to allow people to agree to disagree, to a healthy extent.
When someone's trying to pick a denomination, it seems like the advice they get is to read the Bible, figure out their views on each topic themselves, and then choose the denomination that matches their own views most closely. So in a situation where many different denominations are viewed as equally fine, then I'm not sure this one is wishy-washy so much as it is just embracing the situation for what it is.
This kind of thing seemed wishy-washy at first to someone like me who believes in a visible church, but I think it makes more sense in terms of invisible church believers than claiming one's denomination that doesn't have any more or less authority than most of the others is somehow the only one that interpreted everything in the Bible correctly.
@@oatmealmonkey9130 Want a church? Go to the nearest PCA or LCMS church, or similar. Baptists churches aren't very biblical and many of them are apostate. Converge doesn't want to stand up for biblical doctrines because they don't want to drive anyone way who might hold other doctrines -- but the result is that Christians are driven away from the apostate denomination.
@@jamesreed5678 I've heard of the other way around too, that people from churches that teach their interpretation of secondary and tertiary issues as absolute truth fall away when they find it's not as clear-cut as their church made it out to be. I think Converge sounds like it stands up for a lot of the most important ones while staying humble on the lesser ones. But then this is outsider's opinion, as I stated earlier. It's not that I want to go to Converge, just that I like their honesty in what they do and don't know. It might come across differently to a non-outsider to this approach to church choice.
@@oatmealmonkey9130 I didn't catch which doctrines Converge stands up for, other than the minimum to avoid being popularly labeled a cult (e.g. non-Trinitarianism).
Sorry, I see it as purely naive to think they're being humble. They want to maximize attendance, even if it means not making disciples of anyone.
This is interesting. I personally refuse to go to churches that hide their denomination in the name. If I go to a church, I want to know if it's Baptist, Presbyterian or whatever. That's very important.
I don't mind doing some researching but it sure makes it easier when you know the denomination by the name.
There is no attempt within Converge to hide the fact that they are Baptist in the sense that they practice believer's baptism by immersion. At least one of the motives for changing the name was to avoid confusion with Baptist associations with historical and theological distinctives which differ from the Swedish pietistic Lutheranism that shape the BGC/Converge.
I live in a suburb of Minneapolis, so I've known of Bethlehem Baptist and John Piper for several decades. I had heard of Converge, but did not know Bethlehem Baptist was affiliated with Converge.
I have had good relationships with members, but for some reason have never visited the congregation.
This video has a lot of good information, as most do on this channel. Thanks for the presentation.
Our former church is also affiliated with converge, but we left prior to it's switch from BGC.
I listen to J Piper, an read some of his books, his books are read by some within some charismatic circles
Thanks! This brought a bunch of my unanswered questions together with detailed answers.
Fredrik Nilsson (more commonly referred to as F.O. Nilsson) was never the captain of a ship, nor even a ship's officer. He was just a seaman. Nor was he the first Swedish Baptist. The very first Swedish Baptist was Gustaf Schröder, who was a sea captain. To the best of my knowledge Nilsson was the second Swedish baptist and the first Swedish Baptist preacher. He was present at, but did not officiate, the first confirmed baptism by immersion of adult believers in Sweden on September 21, 1848, at Vallersvik. Four men and one woman were baptized that day. The woman was F.O. Nilsson's wife, Sofia. Among the men were his younger brothers, Sven Kristian Nilsson and Bernt Niklaus Nilsson. There was a fourth brother, the oldest of the four, who never became a Baptist.
For a Swede to become a Baptist at this time was an act of treason because the Lutheran church was the state church. Such was the linkage between the two that opposition to the state church was opposition to the king. However, Nilsson was not charged with treason, he was charged with violating the Conventical Act of 1726 which made it illegal to hold religious meetings outside the physical building of a Lutheran church. An exception was made for families holding meetings in their own homes. Such was the law and under its provisions Nilsson was clearly guilty, having held many such meetings. He was convicted and banished in 1851. He appealed to King Oscar I but was denied. Oscar died in 1859 and in 1860 Nilsson returned to Sweden and appealed to the new King Karl XV. Karl not only pardoned him but gave him complete liberty to travel wherever he wanted in Sweden without the permission of his local Lutheran priest. At the time, travel between provinces was forbidden in Sweden without the permission of your local Lutheran priest in the form of a document much like a passport. Nilsson kept his pardon and universal passport with him wherever he went.
I have been familiar with the life of F.O. Nilsson all my life because he was my great great uncle, the brother of my great grandfather, Sven Kristian Nilsson. When I was a child I saw Nilsson's pardon on our dining room table the day before my dad's cousin donated it to the archives of Bethel Seminary.
Thanks, that was really interesting. The openness on the ordination of women surprises me, given how conservative their other positions seem to be.
It would be very interesting to see a comparison of IFB churches with Reformed Baptists, as they are on the same end of the spectrum in some ways (very conservative baptists), yet so different in other areas (Calvinism, eschatology, confessionalism, etc.). Both places where you could go to hear a long baptist sermon, but likely with very different styles and content.
I don't get the apparent or perceived stigma that the term "Baptist" is getting.
very interesting, I had never heard of them
Bethel graduate here - great video!
Very detailed - thank you!
I understand that Dr. Millard Erickson, author of his famous SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY, is member of Converge.
I saw one of these churches yesterday, for the first time, and wondered.....
Timely video.
I wonder too, what in the world happened to our beloved Swedish Baptist Church. Glad they quit calling themselves Baptist as most of them are going woke.
I attended a BGC church for several years. Recently that particular church has decided that it's okay for gay people to marry and that abortion is okay in most cases. I left the church and returned to the Catholic Church, which I should never have left in the first place.
There are no congregations in good standing in Converge which condone gay marriage or abortion as a means of birth control.
Welcome home!
It's not possible for a BGC church to marry a same sex couple, it violates the conference statement of faith and therefore their fellowship in the conference. Tell me the church name, I'll look into it.
I am no longer Roman Catholic, and find it interesting that you left in the first place. What were you looking for when you left?
I did not know that BGC had become Converge. I wonder if Greg Boyd is still a BGC or Converge pastor. I know Piper wanted to have Boyd removed 20 years ago for his "Open Theism" which denies God's omniscience.
Greg Boyd's church is no longer affiliated with Converge--however, as far as I know, he is still an adjunct professor at Bethel College and Seminary.
Wow your channel is going 😮 doing the lord's work for news about church in the states 👍
The Converge Baptist church has a church near me
Thanx Joshua🌹🌹🌹
Who needs another church? Christ is ALL I need.
Interesting to find an american church with connection to swedish church history.
The Evangelical Covenant Church and the Evangelical Free Church of America are also Swedish imports.
Why a Baptist denomination be embarrased that people know that are, well, Baptist? And how are you going to translate "Converge" in other languages?
I have a chirch in my town that's affiliated with Converge
There is a Community Church that is a " Swedish Church " that moved from a city to the suburbs. They were the only church that was open for the " Day of Prayer " Service to coincide with the National Day of Prayer. I attended. At the end of the Service, which I participated & enjoyed, I was approached by one of the Congregrants and ask about my Last Name. I am of German Ancestry. Three times this Lady ask me my Last Name. Then she told me that this ( Church ) is a Swedish Church, their History, and they: " I wish you the best in our search for a Church to Attend ". ..... " Now I must go to talk to some Important Members ".
She went in the back hall where members were having Coffee & Snacks after the Service. I guess I was not welcome so I left and and never returned. I mentioned " Tongues " in another Church and was avoided and murmured " mentally ill ". Now, I do not attend any local " Christian Churches ". I seem to have stopped reading & studying the Bible. Not good. Thanks for Video.
Why would you let people steer you away from God? You won't have to answer to them when you die. They won't be your Judge. Yes, they were wrong for how they treated you, but why stray away from God because of them? People should never turn away you from God. I thought the blood of Jesus was worth more than that. Perhaps there's more going on than this? But I'm praying for you. Serving Jesus is like a marriage. Why would someone leave their spouse because someone else treats them badly? Please think about this prayerfully and turn back to Christ.
@@RebeccaJeffersonOAC Difficult standing alone when you see so much hypocrisy. Satan picks off the lone wolves. Never ends. Must be me. Thank you for your concern and prayers. Paul stood alone. I'm no Paul.
@Johnny Rep She was much older than I - Ancient. I'm old. Your correct.
I’ve been a member at Bethlehem for 10 years and we don’t admit people into membership who haven’t been baptized by immersion as adults. What you quote above was PROPOSED a number of years ago (2005?) by was ultimately voted down.
Thanks for that clarification Daniel.
For those who want to know more, Here's John Piper defending the idea that Bethlehem ought to accept members baptized as infants under certain circumstances. It's important to note that the elders at Bethlehem were initially 21 to 2 in support of this position though the church didn't ultimately adopt this. Piper said that not adopting the position was a "mistake."
www.desiringgod.org/interviews/can-you-update-us-on-the-baptism-and-church-membership-issue-from-2005
@@ReadyToHarvest
Piper is a Calvinist, there are no mistakes. 😆
Have you done a video on the Yahweh's Restoration Ministry group? I just learned about them through an ad of theirs that ran on your channel and now I'm reading up on what they believe. I don't think I agree with a lot of it but it is interesting.
I've attended a converge Baptist church near my house and they are cessationists. They deny the calvinist version of predestination and are free willers. I'm trying to rap my mind around how each converge church is extremely different than the next. One may be more calvinist leaning like Pipers church when it comes to predestination, while another may be free will arminian leaning. I think this video actually muddied the waters in a sense. He needed to clarify further that Converge churches, depending of the church, have varying degrees of calvinist and arminian doctrines.
Pray for Christian unity! 🙏❤️❤️🙏
@@eddingtonrental8861 Rom 2
these videos are very educating. however as a Catholic I am racking my brain trying to figure out how all these hundreds or thousands of protestant churches have to all rewrite the creed-keeping basically the ancient Christian creed that preceded them and then making other requirements like believers baptism and no real presence in the eucharist, just a memory moment. It is beautiful to see folks constantly seeking for more truth but it seems that everyone holding the Bible to be the only rule of faith makes for an endlessly multiplying number of groups. How does one build a life giving tradition if every man can at any moment get an inspiration that splits the whole church? How can the world see the unifying power of Jesus Christ if we split because of how we individually read the bible?
Yup, I'll just keep counting my magic beads while father felatio keeps on sodomizing the parishioners children. Are you truly that dense?
What’s more important: unity or correct theology? Also it’s a myth that there are hundreds of thousands of Protestant denominations
@Chris Bolden Newsome the catholic magisterium (the pope with the bishops) as the only authorized interpreter of scripture and tradition might help but once an individual catholic believes that he can be directly guided by the holy spirit and regards the teachings of the magisterium as only optional , then there will always be a problem whenever his understanding of the bible and tradition is in contradiction with that of the magisterium.
he has these options: 1) stay and just keep quiet about his doctrinal beliefs 2) join another christian denomination whose beliefs are closest to his views, and 3) start another group of christians that can agree with him on all points of doctrine and practice.
it seems that the only solution to the endless divisions of christian denominations is an unquestioning acceptance of the teaching authority of the catholic bishops under the jurisdiction of the pope in all matters of the christian faith and practice. but not all christians of all denominations can accept this, so the disunity of christianity will continue ad infinitum.
Most of these protestants are of or by proxy of theology related to radical reformation instead of the magisterial reformation (which is where you get lutherans, reformed, and anglicans) some like methodists blur the line of course.
Then you have the restorianists, word of faith, and new apostolic reformation which are all undeniably heretical
Sounds like the generic evangelical style that the "hip" LCMS megachurches emulate.
All the controversy over "tongues"! I wonder why they didn't bring up handling of serpents as well? Or the drinking of poison? It's right there in the same passage, at the end of Mark. Not to mention that the longer ending of mark was a later addition to the scriptures anyway!
Tongues is also clearly described on the Day of Pentecost and the conversion of Cornelius, and referenced in several epistles...
@@sarahfield9758 There's no wy of knowing what happened on the "Day of Pentecost" in regard to "tongues", but in today's Christianity, it is nothing but gibberish
@@stan1027 Well, I had a Hawaiian friend say God was speaking to her in Hawaiian through someone in the room, but what do I know?
Paul even wrote in detail about the right use of this gift in public worship and ask that they ould not be prohibited.
First that I have heard of a converge church. As a whole, sounds like they can’t agree on many things.
Women led baptist church?
There have been female Baptist pastors since 1815.
Is it a Christian denomination? Is it a tech startup? 🤷🏾♂️
11:05 What Biblical justification is there for a "yes" answer?
16:07 An *1865* statement?
1. Cor. 13:8 "As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease". And it is simply obvious that there is no actual gift of tongues as described for the apostles, that they could speak foreign languages (with people who would understand them) without learning those languages first. Every missionary today first has to learn the language of the place where they are going on a mission.
@@zelenisok "they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease". It does not say *when* they will cease. The implication is at the end of time.
"it is simply obvious that there is no actual gift of tongues as described for the apostles". But the Bible says that the Holy Spirit pours out gifts like speaking in foreign tongues.
"Every missionary today first has to learn the language of the place where they are going on a mission." Because there really isn't a God to give those gifts.
Paul says when the perfect comes, the imperfect passes away. When tongues is no longer needed to communicate the gospel, it passes away. Paul goes not to suggest tongues isn't needed in a mature church. Tongues isn't needed today as the church speaks all the languages of the world. Even if tongues hadn't passed away, it's wouldn't be found in the babbling gibberish of clowns in apostate Pentacostal denominations.
@@jamesreed5678 what does "Tongues isn't needed today as the church speaks all the languages of the world" have to do with *"when the perfect comes, the imperfect passes away"?*
The only rational reason you could bention it is because you think "the perfect" has come.
@@RonJohn63 Most who say that this passage can be used to defend the ceasing of the miraculous spiritual gifts would say that "that which is perfect" coming refers to the Bible's completion. After the scripture is completed there was no need for miraculous gifts.
That third way is borderline Hersey.
I am just gonna start making notes on every denomination that accepts Papal Trinity for as much as they don't want to be Papists
Are you Biblical Unitarian (Church Of God)?
HxC
Converge? What kind of name is that for a Christian church? Sounds positively anodyne and New Age.
Another carnal oriented Christian Church, devices of the Lord of this World. - what about bacon? Since beer is a no no.
Huh, conservatives who care about compassion and justice, about the poor, discriminated and the disprivileged, that's a positive surprise.
Most conservatives care deeply about the poor and disadvantaged. So called liberals claim they do but in reality use the poor and disadvantaged for the sake of political power.
What you said there is just total nonsense, literally the opposite of what is the case.
Liberals don't care about the people they claim to care about. It's all about gaining power for themselves.
I know conservatives are delusional, you dont have to insist on proving that with such statements.
@@zelenisok
In fact, published charity data shows that conservatives give more to non-church affiliated non-profits than do the Left. Surely you are aware of that.
Is it Godly or love secular cultural Marxism? That's the mark of Gods people.
So for those of you struggling to keep track of all the Baptist subgroups, Converge is less problematic than the SBC and IFBs, but more problematic than the CBF and ABCUSA.
What criteria are you using to determine this?
@@cjphillips90 I'm basing it on how well (or poorly) they treat traditionally marginalized groups, as well as their association with scandals or widespread abusive tendencies.
@@MAMoreno Ah, political ground. Very nice. Lol
@@iagoofdraiggwyn98 "All humans deserve to be treated with compassion" and "Don't assault your female staff members" shouldn't be regarded as political statements.
@@MAMoreno Pretty sure thats not in contention, nor would anyone disagree. However, how youd interpret what either of those quotes mean was already shown by the metrics you used to measure your conclusion of your first comment. Inherently politicized gatekeeping.
You’re focusing on tacky Pentecostal churches etc too much, there are still many other denominations you should specifically document in maybe 10 minute videos.. WELS Lutheran, EPC Presbyterian etc!
There are almost double the amount of pentecostals in the world as lutherans and presbyterians combined, and there are even more charismatics. The charismatic/pentecostal movement is also the fastest growing christian sect, and I would certainly not find any fault with the content creator for providing information on these fast growing sects, many of which are very dangerous.
Also, a movement with a lot of adherents is likely to experience more division than a smaller movement, which would also mean more sects for Ready to Harvest to cover.
@@johnnyraymond429 No, while Pentecostals abound, this channel, which I like, has yet to cover certain big Protestant denominations, like the ones I mentioned. That should be done before covering some of these Pentecostal bodies as in this video, which are indeed 'tacky' and not that sizeable compared to other such churches
@@seansweeney8911 "That should be done before covering some of these Pentecostal bodies as in this video, which are indeed 'tacky' and not that sizeable compared to other such churches."
This video isn't even about a Pentecostal organization. Converge is a Baptist organization.
This statement is also confusing, because his Pentecostal videos are all on organizations much more sizeable than most mainline organizations. For example, you wanted videos on WELS and the EPC, the two of which, combined(roughly 450,000-500,000 members), are still smaller than all but one of the Pentecostal organizations that Ready to Harvest has made(That organization being Open Bible Church).
I can understand why people would want videos on WELS and the EPC, but the statement about them not being sizeable compared to other churches doesn't really make sense.
@@johnnyraymond429 If that's true, then I mean all these tacky denominational startups TOGETHER.. Pentecostal, Baptist etc. My point is that the guy spends a lot of time on them while neglecting to mention more established, and still quite large ( even if not as large ) churches. The members of Converge and the various Pentecostal bodies may be good people, but the denominations themselves are often like glitzy corporations, with trademarks and copyrights on their logos
@@seansweeney8911: Pentecostal denominations: The Assembly of God has almost 4 millions members in the USA. The Church of God in Christ is one of th largest Black denominations with more than 5 miilion, The Church of God has more than 1 million. Vs. the POC which is very tiny. and the WELS has less that 400,000 and is losing members.