I just wanted to thank you for the seriousness with which you tackle this episode. You allow room for jokes without ever punching down at the subject matter. This episode always meant a lot to me and I was looking forward to your take. You did not disappoint. Thank you again for being my favorite Voyager commenter.
Thank you for your kindness. Trek, at its best like it is here, handles difficult subjects with tact and delicacy, but without shying away. It's right that we should do the same. Welcome aboard! You're now the crewmember in charge of asking all visiting alien races to give us a Tripadvisor review.
I would like to commend you for your use of graphics. When you first said you were going to use special names for each of the Q, I thought I was going to have trouble orienting my brain to which one is which. But... You immediately solved that problem by putting a graphic on their chests to give a visual reference. Well done. :)
Damn. You got pretty passionate at the end there. You are right though. This was one of Voyager's best episodes and it didn't need a space battle or aliens to improve upon it.
Yup. Trek, not just Voyager but all of them, is often most memorable when it throws all the spaceship stuff out of the window. How have you managed to be here for this long without me giving you a job? Right, you're now the crewmember in charge of making sure the bar has a rotating selection of guest ales so we can keep entering the CAMRA Pub of the Year competition.
I'm inclined to agree with that. We all ultimately watch these things for a little escapism. Having every episode be about something heavy would indeed get old pretty fast. It makes the ones that focus on story all the more impactful as a result. Would I have preferred it leaning more the other way with a greater focus on character than kabooms? Yes. Would the version in my head have been renewed for 7 seasons? I doubt it. Ultimately we have what we have, and whilst I mourn not getting the version in my head, there's much to like about the version we got.
With how Voyager is supposed to fly linear across the galaxy basically only 2 kind of stories work. Either a full-series plot where actions have consequences that are felt later. Or episodes that are contained within the ship.
I was waiting for this one with great anticipation. The subject of suicide was actually treated somewhat delicately and with more respect and thoughtfulness than the writers generally show throughout the series. Also, as another comment said, I've taken to watching these, then watching the relevant episode.
It wasn't until after I'd recorded this that I discovered the story was by Shawn Piller, son of showrunner Michael Piller, and that Michael died of cancer a decade later. It made me wonder if there was a history of cancer in the family, and if the subject of assisted suicide was one they'd discussed as a result.
The Q episodes certainly always stood out to me when watching Voyager, not just because they tended to be high concept episodes with lots of connective tissue to other episodes and other series of Trek but the wacky relationship the evolves between Janeway and De Lance's Q; his crush making a lot of sense as he Q is rather the ultimate man-child and Janeway will drink his tears for breakfast. I still love that phrase. This episode in particular for the 90's tackling the subject of suicide, or in Snooker Q's case assisted death, was not something I remember seeing discussed very often. Snooker's arguments reminded me also very much of Sir Terry Pratchett's championing of assisted death after his alzheimer's diagnosis. And anyone who knows me will tell you if I comparing any writing to Sir Terry's it's always a compliment.
Yes, this would have been just before some high profile cases in the UK regarding right to die, something that hadn't really been as publicly discussed previously. Trek being on the pulse again it seems.
An amazing Michael Piller episode; he wrote the screenplay, and his son wrote the story! Piller is one of the main reasons Trek of the 90s had these amazing stories (sometimes...). John de Lancie said of this episode "One of the things Michael had said was that he wanted to do a Q story, not a story about how Q affects other people, but how the story affects him, and that he goes from his usual flamboyant self to someone much more introspective. You see that he's truly troubled by a philosophical and unresolvable problem."
An excellent example of how something familiar doesn't need to be the same, and how recurring themes and characters can give a show the room to explore that it doesn't have in episodes where everything is new and needs to be explained.
It's these nuggets of gold you can't find in any other genre of fiction that keep me coming back to Sci Fi. To challenge concepts and prejudices is beyond difficult, and too often The Starfleet captain, or The Doctor (Who) just meets aliens. But it's their execution, and motivations that reflect our own ideas back, to study from a different perspective.
Perhaps this is worthy of exploration... is it science fiction's removal of a contemporary environment that allows us to have a clearer perspective of contemporary issues? Does, for example, the targetting of a civilian population become easier to see as wrong if it's being done by an alien race, a people with whom we can no longer identify?
ST:TNG touched upon this subject a few times in it's run. One of my favorite episodes is Half a Life, where a scientist is being forced to end his life and seeks asylum in order to not die. For me, the acting was phenomenal, especially with Majel Barrett and David Ogden Stiers. To be honest though, Lwaxana is one of my favorite characters because I love Majel Barret and think she is underrated ... Plus, we get to see a quick cameo of Michelle Forbes, who goes on to play Ensign Ro Laren ... But, I digress ...
A lot of people give Lwaxana hate, but Barrett plays her perfectly. The genuine care she has for Odo in DS9 is delightful, showing she's more than just a 2 dimensional character.
This is one of those rarest of things - a great voyager episode. The was interesting, thoughtful, and had alittle silliness at the beginning with the Q's running and hiding.
"Voyager had social commentary too". Yes but in those days it was subtle, clever and took a back seat to story, plot, character and most importantly, entertainment. As opposed to the modern practice of forcibly preaching social justice down your throat at a volume of 11 with zero entertainment, nuance or story to be found anywhere.
Ah, yes, the subtle and clever episode all about plot, called "DEATH WISH". A volume of 10.9 at the highest. New Trek sure ruined all that subtleness with not even acknowledging Michael is an exceptional name for a female human.
Ok I thought about how Snooker Q knows about Pool Q’s shenanigans, and the guy can travel forward in time easy as traveling back in time. They probably already know how the hearing end and they’re just going through with it for kicks.
This is why I don't touch on the time fuckery of Q existence (and why I don't care for time travel stories in general): it makes a nonsense of everything.
The Good Place also dealt with this idea well, as told by Good Place resident Hypatia of Alexandria: Okay, that's it in a nutshell. 'Cause you get here and you realize that anything's possible, so you do everything, and then you're done. But you still have infinity left. This place kills fun and passion and excitement and love, 'till all you have left are milkshakes.
A very heavy but good episode. Now I find that I'm looking forward to the introduction of 7 of 9 because if I recall correctly, they dig into some good issues with her as well
Similarly looking forward to that. I think my younger self was dismissive of her inclusion at the time, assuming it was a cynical sex appeal choice by the showrunners. Which... well it kinda was, but it'll be interesting to see what *else* it was.
@@Unlimited_Lives They absolutely included her for the sex appeal and younger me thought the same thing when I was only able to catch episodes here and there on TV. But after binge watching it years later on Netflix, I was able to recognize that the writers still were able to create a well fleshed out character despite that. It was just hard to recognize it when you don't see all the episodes or in order.
Finally caught up with the reviews! While this series is nostalgic bc it aired when I was a kid and we would sit down to watch it as a family every week, I wish I could remember how my child self felt about this, especially because it dealt with some heavy things that I thought WAY too much about then. Superb episode and equally superb review. I may have gripes with the series as a whole but this may be one of the best episodes
Thank you. Yeah, it's odd to think this was pitched as family entertainment, but I wonder how many kids had their worldview influenced by it? Now that there's a screen in every hand and viewing habits are more fragmented by demographic, who loses out more? Might be an interesting topic to explore...
This truly is one of Voyager’s best episodes. Thanks for not being your normal AH self (just kidding, love your reviews) while presenting this episode.
Thank you. It deserved better from me, so got it. I know I can be harsh, but credit will always go where its due. Welcome aboard! You're now the crewmember in charge of supergluing two tricorders together if we even need a sextuplecorder.
I was wondering when you would break with your quick "end of episode" rule and end on a personal review. Much appreciated. Also an episode I had completed forgotten about and will very much watch now...
Dang dude. I REALLY appreciate the passion in your closing statements. I can think of shows where my favorite episodes are smaller more character focussed oes without a lot of action.
Point of clarity: We're well aware that Star Trek has always taken on political and social issues, the problem is the newer series handles said issues with all the subtly and tact of a Ferrengi mating dance.
Agreed, in fact, I hate that the socialist anti-capitalist Trek of the 80s-00s, created even when Reagan was president and Thatcher was prime minister, has been lost - replaced by a trek that seems to be discussing current day social issues without analogy and instead discussing them 300+ years in the future as if they... are still issues in the future, for humans. Old trek was able to fool conservatives (and keep them watching) and discuss contentious political issues without discussing them directly. This episode is a great example of that. It discusses suicide, but of an immortal being of a different alien race. Thus the issue can be discussed, and people who ordinarily would reject watching such a thing out of hand would still keep watching. Old Trek often failed to do a great job of this, but the attempt was at least made.
@@joelellis7035 To be fair, old Trek often failed to do that too (rightly so in most cases!). TNG's best moral episodes all had a very strong "this is the right answer!" message in most cases. Anti-slavery, anti-witchhunt, anti-pollution, etc.
I've read a couple of people suggesting that current Trek is less subtle than old Trek. Do we have examples of that? Can we point at specific episodes that scream Social Justice in a way the old shows didn't? It might be worth investigating in a video. I'd be interested to see (inasmuch as something subjective can be seen) if that's the case and, if so, formulate some theories on what reasons there might be behind that.
Well said, It's been so long since I saw this but like you knew exactly how it ended when I saw Quinn and there is a reason why, its such a powerful episode. Just the way them make me think how chilling existence as an omnipotent immortal being would be is just bloody brilliant and while I have issues with Voyager when they wanted to they could make some of the best Trek out there.
In reference to 13:48…I’m watching through all of voyager for the first time having finished ds9. My favourite ds9 episodes were always the ones without stakes as it really got to explore the brilliant characters they got to develop on the show… I hope voyager has that same development.
It'd be a pleasant surprise, but my significant lack of memory from when it aired suggests Voyager will not. DS9 was a different beast and, arguably, that's why it still holds up so well today. Still, Voyager seems to have its moments, so we can appreciate those for what they are.
I know I’ve watched this before when it came out, maybe I put it on the background to fall asleep (compliment), but I’ve only just seen the ending of this review for the first time and I love the passion. ❤
The character episodes are the ones that stay with us. Welcome aboard. You're now the crewmember in charge of ensuring all turbolifts play smooth jazz.
For me, it's Inner Light, Chain of Command, are the stand out episodes for their character work and weighty themes. Hard to believe this same program gave us 'Sub Rosa'. A damned shame, there's so few fleshed out characters, that reach three dimensions. For me, it was only Picard, Data and Worf who felt fleshed out enough to bear such stories.
that episode was one of my favorites of Voyager, mainly because Q but also because it was a nice change of pace to remind us that Star Trek can be about other things other than battling aliens with lasers and Photonic cannons
For sure, Voyager has its fair share of stinkers in the Trek universe. Perhaps even more than its fair share, but it also has some absolute masterpieces. This is one of them.
It was worth revisiting just for this. Welcome aboard! You're now the crewmember in charge of installing anti-fatigue floor mats for the stations on the bridge that aren't given seats.
@@Unlimited_Lives Not necessary. Standing station crew members are issued antigravity pants and are all floating comfortably at their posts. Any motion switches the antigrav mechanism off, allowing them to walk or brace for impact.
Thank you. Hmm... I didn't give you duties when I welcomed you aboard. You're now the crewmember in charge of organising weekly watch parties for the latest episode of Ferenginar's Got Talent, a reality holoshow to find the best swindler on the planet.
Because Star Trek takes place in a future that with almost never happen and wrapped up in the spaceship/explosion/exploration stuff it is easy to forget these trial episodes take a stance. While measure of a man was obvious (they were never going to allow Data to be dissembled) this episode actually seemed to take the side of suicide which is a much more brazen thing to say and even if it was just the writer that wanted to say it, they still made every character on Voyager complacent in this assisted suicide, at least Janeway and Q.
The Q episodes in voyager and this one specifically were some of the real highlights. Still bitter sweet that dies so soon. It would have been nice if he stuck around a bit longer and learned to value his new life. Then when he does die later to see him be both sad to die and happy that he chose a mortal life over Q existence would have been more profound. Again, another criticism for lack of slow burn.
We didn't even need to have that happen on Voyager. Pool Q magics him up a ship, leaving us with the chance of his return. That said, I think the impact of the story would be lessened by that ending.
"This Q isn't as familiar with humans" ... Which is hilarious considering at the trial this particular Q is shown to be instrumental in our history. He made sure William T. Riker was born to one day defeat the Borg. He helped Isaac Newton discover gravity and he made Woodstock happen. That makes him an expert compared to the DeLancie Q who only seemed to notice humanity after Encounter At Farpoint. But, I digress ;-)
@@Unlimited_Lives That does raise the question how Q perceive time. Are they (mostly) linear like us or do they exist outside of time like DS9's Prophets. In other words: did Snooker Q know he was saving the Federation when he rescued Will Riker's ancestor? And if he did know, why didn't he and the other Q foresee his eventual decision to commit suicide?
@@Norvo82 In the words of a great philosopher "wibbly wobbly, timey wimey". This is why I take all time travel plot elements with a good kilo of salt. If we want to theorize: it could be a Who thing where interacting with the things you've already interacted with is generally frowned upon and has unforseen consequences. Thus the Q could see Snooker Q's desire for death, and the possible future outcomes of a hearing, but not the definite outcome of that hearing due to their own interaction with it. Additionally, perhaps the actions of multiple Q muddies the waters.
You posted this a while ago, but I'm catching up, and I figure comments are always good, right? In any case, this one is my favorite episode of Voyager and one of my favorite Star Trek episodes in general, not so much because of the social commentary on death with dignity but just philosophically in terms of addressing the nature of eternity and immortality. Long ago, I watched this episode with Christian friends of mine who often tried to convince me to join their religion. (I'm an atheist.) One of their favorite "arguments" was the "paradisiacal eternal afterlife" one, which for some reason Christians in general seem to thinking is appealing. But when I think of living eternally, I think it'd quickly become psychological torture, much as this episode shows the Q existence to be (And which completely explains Pool Q's behavior, in my opinion), and that's what I pointed out as we watched. It gave them some food for thought, and we had an interesting discussion afterwards. One of those friends isn't Christian anymore, and has joined me on the atheist side, though I have no idea if watching this episode planted a seed of doubt or something. Maybe I should ask her. Anyway, I'm enjoying these recaps/reviews and am very happy to see you've moved on to DS9, as that's my favorite Trek show. I'm hoping you'll eventually do Next Gen as well, since I haven't watched that in a couple decades now and, apart from some memorable episodes, have forgotten most of the details. Also, I can't believe people say that Trek isn't "political." It always has been, from the get-go, but I guess it flies under people's radar. Which is a good thing. Social commentary isn't as effective when it slaps you in the face.
Thank you. Hey, I never gave you a job! You're now the crewmember in charge of making sure new recuits don't give their combadges custom mp3 ringtones.
@@Unlimited_Lives Accepted gladly, Sir. I already have a plan on how to enforce this edict. www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/factfiles/agony-booth-tos.jpg
It didn't make much sense when they said Quinn couldn't have done anything for the last 300 years when he was trapped in the comet. The Q can easily travel through time. In this very episode, Quinn takes Voyager to the beginning of the universe. For the Q, time shouldn't be much of a factor. Quinn can be trapped in that comet for another billion years but as soon as he gets out, he can jump around through time and affect things in the past.
My dislike of time travel gubbins is due to stuff like that, though in this case there's an element of logic to it. We can assume the other Q ensured the prison itself prevented such things and that, now he's on their shitlist, the other Q would try to prevent him from dicking around with it. Ultimately, the Q are the best placed to do these sort of shenannigans precisely because we don't know the limitations of their power.
Cliche comment but how this rocked up in my recommended, I dunno but glad it did. Regarding the time shenanigans, de lancie Q does state that humans are early to the delta quadrant so it does seem the Q do have some inherent time abilities, at least to me
Voyager is not a good TV series overall for many reasons. But it is very much still Star Trek to it’s core and episodes like this prove it. I also love the serious defense of it at the end, and that it gives a Mic Drop feel as the author says ‘End of Episode’. The potential is there, and it always has been there, to have been amazing if the studio had allowed it to blossom properly. That’s what makes a YT series like this so fascinating because of all the defects and ‘what ifs’ of a bad show are fun to explore, and it’s even cathartic when we arrive at a good episode within.
The premise of this episode fails for several reasons but one in particular is that it is based on a fundamental error, that being that the mind of an immortal immaterial being would function even remotely like ours would. Boredom is caused by a chemical process in the brain which the Q lacks, they aren't physical or temporal so such a concept would be completely alien to them. It makes sense in a setting like Lord of the Rings where the Elves are technically immortal but they are still physical and can still die. And even then it is extremely rare because they view time differently because of their life spans.
One thing I kept wondering about was how that statement of having expercienced EVERYTHING there is to experience is true not only for that one Q but for every Q. So how do they cope with that fact?
Finding the treasure was one of the reasons for revisiting it. Glad you stuck around. Welcome aboard! You're now the crewmember in charge of updating our address information on Amazon each time we enter a new sector of space.
Agreed and/or thank you (depending on whether you meant the episode or the video). Welcome aboard! You're now the crewmember in charge of keeping fingerprints off all those glossy terminal screens. Who the hell thought that was a good idea? Did we learn nothing from mobile phones?
Ain't gonna lie, Voyager is my least favorite series in the franchise, but that's not saying a whole lot. Given the choice between watching Voyager and literally anything else not Star Trek and I'm still picking Voyager every single time. Bad Trek is like bad pizza: even when it's awful it's still pretty good. I've always loved this episode and I too consider it one of the series standout episodes.
I just wanted to thank you for the seriousness with which you tackle this episode. You allow room for jokes without ever punching down at the subject matter. This episode always meant a lot to me and I was looking forward to your take. You did not disappoint. Thank you again for being my favorite Voyager commenter.
Thank you for your kindness. Trek, at its best like it is here, handles difficult subjects with tact and delicacy, but without shying away. It's right that we should do the same.
Welcome aboard! You're now the crewmember in charge of asking all visiting alien races to give us a Tripadvisor review.
Same.
I would like to commend you for your use of graphics. When you first said you were going to use special names for each of the Q, I thought I was going to have trouble orienting my brain to which one is which. But... You immediately solved that problem by putting a graphic on their chests to give a visual reference. Well done. :)
If you can't follow up a silly idea with another silly idea, what's the point of anything?
@@Unlimited_Lives he gave Visual Cues... Qs?.... Ques?
Damn. You got pretty passionate at the end there. You are right though. This was one of Voyager's best episodes and it didn't need a space battle or aliens to improve upon it.
Yup. Trek, not just Voyager but all of them, is often most memorable when it throws all the spaceship stuff out of the window.
How have you managed to be here for this long without me giving you a job? Right, you're now the crewmember in charge of making sure the bar has a rotating selection of guest ales so we can keep entering the CAMRA Pub of the Year competition.
This was one of three episodes I specifically wanted to get your take on. Bravo; and thank you.
THIS is what Voyager could have been. One of the most powerful stories it ever told.
I'm inclined to agree with that. We all ultimately watch these things for a little escapism. Having every episode be about something heavy would indeed get old pretty fast. It makes the ones that focus on story all the more impactful as a result.
Would I have preferred it leaning more the other way with a greater focus on character than kabooms? Yes.
Would the version in my head have been renewed for 7 seasons? I doubt it.
Ultimately we have what we have, and whilst I mourn not getting the version in my head, there's much to like about the version we got.
With how Voyager is supposed to fly linear across the galaxy basically only 2 kind of stories work. Either a full-series plot where actions have consequences that are felt later. Or episodes that are contained within the ship.
It’s like the ds9 in the pale moonlight episode. No fancy battles
Precisely. Trek is often at its best when it forgets the action bits (and doesn't mind being a little dark too).
I absolutely love the more serious tone you took for this review. As much as I like the goofy jaunty videos this really had a weight that drew me in
Thank you. The subject deserved it.
I was waiting for this one with great anticipation. The subject of suicide was actually treated somewhat delicately and with more respect and thoughtfulness than the writers generally show throughout the series. Also, as another comment said, I've taken to watching these, then watching the relevant episode.
It wasn't until after I'd recorded this that I discovered the story was by Shawn Piller, son of showrunner Michael Piller, and that Michael died of cancer a decade later. It made me wonder if there was a history of cancer in the family, and if the subject of assisted suicide was one they'd discussed as a result.
The Q episodes certainly always stood out to me when watching Voyager, not just because they tended to be high concept episodes with lots of connective tissue to other episodes and other series of Trek but the wacky relationship the evolves between Janeway and De Lance's Q; his crush making a lot of sense as he Q is rather the ultimate man-child and Janeway will drink his tears for breakfast. I still love that phrase. This episode in particular for the 90's tackling the subject of suicide, or in Snooker Q's case assisted death, was not something I remember seeing discussed very often. Snooker's arguments reminded me also very much of Sir Terry Pratchett's championing of assisted death after his alzheimer's diagnosis. And anyone who knows me will tell you if I comparing any writing to Sir Terry's it's always a compliment.
Yes, this would have been just before some high profile cases in the UK regarding right to die, something that hadn't really been as publicly discussed previously. Trek being on the pulse again it seems.
An amazing Michael Piller episode; he wrote the screenplay, and his son wrote the story! Piller is one of the main reasons Trek of the 90s had these amazing stories (sometimes...). John de Lancie said of this episode "One of the things Michael had said was that he wanted to do a Q story, not a story about how Q affects other people, but how the story affects him, and that he goes from his usual flamboyant self to someone much more introspective. You see that he's truly troubled by a philosophical and unresolvable problem."
An excellent example of how something familiar doesn't need to be the same, and how recurring themes and characters can give a show the room to explore that it doesn't have in episodes where everything is new and needs to be explained.
One of the top five episodes of star trek. And somehow it's often overlooked
Hmm... a top 5/bottom 5 list when we reach the end of each entry in the Trek franchise feels like a good idea.
It's these nuggets of gold you can't find in any other genre of fiction that keep me coming back to Sci Fi. To challenge concepts and prejudices is beyond difficult, and too often The Starfleet captain, or The Doctor (Who) just meets aliens. But it's their execution, and motivations that reflect our own ideas back, to study from a different perspective.
Perhaps this is worthy of exploration... is it science fiction's removal of a contemporary environment that allows us to have a clearer perspective of contemporary issues? Does, for example, the targetting of a civilian population become easier to see as wrong if it's being done by an alien race, a people with whom we can no longer identify?
@@Unlimited_Lives Yeah, I think Charlie Brooker did this brilliantly in Black Mirror.
'Man Against Fire'.
@@MrRjhyt Hmm. I got sidetracked from Black Mirror after the first season. Maybe I should pick it up again. Thanks.
I am now in the habit of watching the next episode before your take. Love it.
Bugger. I'd best stop making them up.
I've been doing the same thing!
ST:TNG touched upon this subject a few times in it's run. One of my favorite episodes is Half a Life, where a scientist is being forced to end his life and seeks asylum in order to not die. For me, the acting was phenomenal, especially with Majel Barrett and David Ogden Stiers. To be honest though, Lwaxana is one of my favorite characters because I love Majel Barret and think she is underrated ... Plus, we get to see a quick cameo of Michelle Forbes, who goes on to play Ensign Ro Laren ... But, I digress ...
A lot of people give Lwaxana hate, but Barrett plays her perfectly. The genuine care she has for Odo in DS9 is delightful, showing she's more than just a 2 dimensional character.
This is one of those rarest of things - a great voyager episode. The was interesting, thoughtful, and had alittle silliness at the beginning with the Q's running and hiding.
Damn, that's one hell of a review from you. Your frustration and conviction were palpable, good job.
Thank you. Some episodes deserve being treated a bit more seriously.
"Voyager had social commentary too".
Yes but in those days it was subtle, clever and took a back seat to story, plot, character and most importantly, entertainment. As opposed to the modern practice of forcibly preaching social justice down your throat at a volume of 11 with zero entertainment, nuance or story to be found anywhere.
To which current Trek do you refer when you say it's forcibly preaching social justice in a way that older shows did not?
Ah, yes, the subtle and clever episode all about plot, called "DEATH WISH". A volume of 10.9 at the highest. New Trek sure ruined all that subtleness with not even acknowledging Michael is an exceptional name for a female human.
Ok I thought about how Snooker Q knows about Pool Q’s shenanigans, and the guy can travel forward in time easy as traveling back in time. They probably already know how the hearing end and they’re just going through with it for kicks.
This is why I don't touch on the time fuckery of Q existence (and why I don't care for time travel stories in general): it makes a nonsense of everything.
The Good Place also dealt with this idea well, as told by Good Place resident Hypatia of Alexandria:
Okay, that's it in a nutshell. 'Cause you get here and you realize that anything's possible, so you do everything, and then you're done. But you still have infinity left. This place kills fun and passion and excitement and love, 'till all you have left are milkshakes.
I always love q eps and have seen everyone of them a hundred times. This one will always be my favorite
Agreed, and an excellent episode in its own right.
A very heavy but good episode. Now I find that I'm looking forward to the introduction of 7 of 9 because if I recall correctly, they dig into some good issues with her as well
Similarly looking forward to that. I think my younger self was dismissive of her inclusion at the time, assuming it was a cynical sex appeal choice by the showrunners. Which... well it kinda was, but it'll be interesting to see what *else* it was.
@@Unlimited_Lives They absolutely included her for the sex appeal and younger me thought the same thing when I was only able to catch episodes here and there on TV. But after binge watching it years later on Netflix, I was able to recognize that the writers still were able to create a well fleshed out character despite that. It was just hard to recognize it when you don't see all the episodes or in order.
I'm pretty surprised this episode went down the way it did. Certainly not easy subject matter.
Finally caught up with the reviews! While this series is nostalgic bc it aired when I was a kid and we would sit down to watch it as a family every week, I wish I could remember how my child self felt about this, especially because it dealt with some heavy things that I thought WAY too much about then. Superb episode and equally superb review. I may have gripes with the series as a whole but this may be one of the best episodes
Thank you. Yeah, it's odd to think this was pitched as family entertainment, but I wonder how many kids had their worldview influenced by it? Now that there's a screen in every hand and viewing habits are more fragmented by demographic, who loses out more? Might be an interesting topic to explore...
This truly is one of Voyager’s best episodes. Thanks for not being your normal AH self (just kidding, love your reviews) while presenting this episode.
Thank you. It deserved better from me, so got it. I know I can be harsh, but credit will always go where its due.
Welcome aboard! You're now the crewmember in charge of supergluing two tricorders together if we even need a sextuplecorder.
I was wondering when you would break with your quick "end of episode" rule and end on a personal review. Much appreciated.
Also an episode I had completed forgotten about and will very much watch now...
Definitely worth revisiting.
Dang dude. I REALLY appreciate the passion in your closing statements. I can think of shows where my favorite episodes are smaller more character focussed oes without a lot of action.
A lot of my favourite Trek goes this way now I think about it.
Point of clarity: We're well aware that Star Trek has always taken on political and social issues, the problem is the newer series handles said issues with all the subtly and tact of a Ferrengi mating dance.
Agreed, in fact, I hate that the socialist anti-capitalist Trek of the 80s-00s, created even when Reagan was president and Thatcher was prime minister, has been lost - replaced by a trek that seems to be discussing current day social issues without analogy and instead discussing them 300+ years in the future as if they... are still issues in the future, for humans. Old trek was able to fool conservatives (and keep them watching) and discuss contentious political issues without discussing them directly. This episode is a great example of that. It discusses suicide, but of an immortal being of a different alien race. Thus the issue can be discussed, and people who ordinarily would reject watching such a thing out of hand would still keep watching. Old Trek often failed to do a great job of this, but the attempt was at least made.
Actually, the problem is not just the (lack of) subtlety, but also the lack of even-handedness in arguing the issue for the episode.
@@joelellis7035 To be fair, old Trek often failed to do that too (rightly so in most cases!). TNG's best moral episodes all had a very strong "this is the right answer!" message in most cases. Anti-slavery, anti-witchhunt, anti-pollution, etc.
I've read a couple of people suggesting that current Trek is less subtle than old Trek. Do we have examples of that? Can we point at specific episodes that scream Social Justice in a way the old shows didn't? It might be worth investigating in a video. I'd be interested to see (inasmuch as something subjective can be seen) if that's the case and, if so, formulate some theories on what reasons there might be behind that.
Well said, It's been so long since I saw this but like you knew exactly how it ended when I saw Quinn and there is a reason why, its such a powerful episode. Just the way them make me think how chilling existence as an omnipotent immortal being would be is just bloody brilliant and while I have issues with Voyager when they wanted to they could make some of the best Trek out there.
In reference to 13:48…I’m watching through all of voyager for the first time having finished ds9. My favourite ds9 episodes were always the ones without stakes as it really got to explore the brilliant characters they got to develop on the show… I hope voyager has that same development.
It'd be a pleasant surprise, but my significant lack of memory from when it aired suggests Voyager will not. DS9 was a different beast and, arguably, that's why it still holds up so well today. Still, Voyager seems to have its moments, so we can appreciate those for what they are.
I know I’ve watched this before when it came out, maybe I put it on the background to fall asleep (compliment), but I’ve only just seen the ending of this review for the first time and I love the passion. ❤
Measure of a Man from TNG was another Really grate episode that was on this level
The character episodes are the ones that stay with us.
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For me, it's Inner Light, Chain of Command, are the stand out episodes for their character work and weighty themes. Hard to believe this same program gave us 'Sub Rosa'.
A damned shame, there's so few fleshed out characters, that reach three dimensions. For me, it was only Picard, Data and Worf who felt fleshed out enough to bear such stories.
that episode was one of my favorites of Voyager, mainly because Q but also because it was a nice change of pace to remind us that Star Trek can be about other things other than battling aliens with lasers and Photonic cannons
I agree. This was Voyager’s best episode.
For sure, Voyager has its fair share of stinkers in the Trek universe. Perhaps even more than its fair share, but it also has some absolute masterpieces. This is one of them.
It was worth revisiting just for this.
Welcome aboard! You're now the crewmember in charge of installing anti-fatigue floor mats for the stations on the bridge that aren't given seats.
@@Unlimited_Lives Not necessary. Standing station crew members are issued antigravity pants and are all floating comfortably at their posts. Any motion switches the antigrav mechanism off, allowing them to walk or brace for impact.
Excellent episode, and another excellent review. Thank you 🖖
Thank you.
Hmm... I didn't give you duties when I welcomed you aboard. You're now the crewmember in charge of organising weekly watch parties for the latest episode of Ferenginar's Got Talent, a reality holoshow to find the best swindler on the planet.
Because Star Trek takes place in a future that with almost never happen and wrapped up in the spaceship/explosion/exploration stuff it is easy to forget these trial episodes take a stance. While measure of a man was obvious (they were never going to allow Data to be dissembled) this episode actually seemed to take the side of suicide which is a much more brazen thing to say and even if it was just the writer that wanted to say it, they still made every character on Voyager complacent in this assisted suicide, at least Janeway and Q.
Speaking of psychology, thank you for conflating sexism and misogyny as ignorance is one of my own triggers that I still need to work on.
Perhaps add the need to engage in theatrical one-upmanship to the list of things you need to work on.
The Q episodes in voyager and this one specifically were some of the real highlights.
Still bitter sweet that dies so soon. It would have been nice if he stuck around a bit longer and learned to value his new life. Then when he does die later to see him be both sad to die and happy that he chose a mortal life over Q existence would have been more profound.
Again, another criticism for lack of slow burn.
We didn't even need to have that happen on Voyager. Pool Q magics him up a ship, leaving us with the chance of his return. That said, I think the impact of the story would be lessened by that ending.
"This Q isn't as familiar with humans"
... Which is hilarious considering at the trial this particular Q is shown to be instrumental in our history. He made sure William T. Riker was born to one day defeat the Borg. He helped Isaac Newton discover gravity and he made Woodstock happen. That makes him an expert compared to the DeLancie Q who only seemed to notice humanity after Encounter At Farpoint. But, I digress ;-)
Good catch. You could argue it's a more recent thing with Pool Q I guess, but Snooker Q does have some knowledge of them.
@@Unlimited_Lives That does raise the question how Q perceive time. Are they (mostly) linear like us or do they exist outside of time like DS9's Prophets.
In other words: did Snooker Q know he was saving the Federation when he rescued Will Riker's ancestor? And if he did know, why didn't he and the other Q foresee his eventual decision to commit suicide?
@@Norvo82 In the words of a great philosopher "wibbly wobbly, timey wimey". This is why I take all time travel plot elements with a good kilo of salt.
If we want to theorize: it could be a Who thing where interacting with the things you've already interacted with is generally frowned upon and has unforseen consequences. Thus the Q could see Snooker Q's desire for death, and the possible future outcomes of a hearing, but not the definite outcome of that hearing due to their own interaction with it. Additionally, perhaps the actions of multiple Q muddies the waters.
11:00 to quote Q himself in Picard Season 3, "And here I'd hoped the new generation wouldn't think so linearly"
I just noticed the parallels with socrates and the hemlock
I have never seen Gerrit Graham give a bad performance. Even in Police Academy 6: City Under Siege.
Nicely done, thank you for this content 🖖
You posted this a while ago, but I'm catching up, and I figure comments are always good, right? In any case, this one is my favorite episode of Voyager and one of my favorite Star Trek episodes in general, not so much because of the social commentary on death with dignity but just philosophically in terms of addressing the nature of eternity and immortality. Long ago, I watched this episode with Christian friends of mine who often tried to convince me to join their religion. (I'm an atheist.) One of their favorite "arguments" was the "paradisiacal eternal afterlife" one, which for some reason Christians in general seem to thinking is appealing. But when I think of living eternally, I think it'd quickly become psychological torture, much as this episode shows the Q existence to be (And which completely explains Pool Q's behavior, in my opinion), and that's what I pointed out as we watched. It gave them some food for thought, and we had an interesting discussion afterwards. One of those friends isn't Christian anymore, and has joined me on the atheist side, though I have no idea if watching this episode planted a seed of doubt or something. Maybe I should ask her.
Anyway, I'm enjoying these recaps/reviews and am very happy to see you've moved on to DS9, as that's my favorite Trek show. I'm hoping you'll eventually do Next Gen as well, since I haven't watched that in a couple decades now and, apart from some memorable episodes, have forgotten most of the details. Also, I can't believe people say that Trek isn't "political." It always has been, from the get-go, but I guess it flies under people's radar. Which is a good thing. Social commentary isn't as effective when it slaps you in the face.
I appreciate your words at the end of this review.
Thank you.
Hey, I never gave you a job! You're now the crewmember in charge of making sure new recuits don't give their combadges custom mp3 ringtones.
@@Unlimited_Lives Accepted gladly, Sir.
I already have a plan on how to enforce this edict. www.ex-astris-scientia.org/gallery/factfiles/agony-booth-tos.jpg
He dies and meets God. And he's like
FUCKING NOOO!
truly memorable episode
It didn't make much sense when they said Quinn couldn't have done anything for the last 300 years when he was trapped in the comet. The Q can easily travel through time. In this very episode, Quinn takes Voyager to the beginning of the universe. For the Q, time shouldn't be much of a factor. Quinn can be trapped in that comet for another billion years but as soon as he gets out, he can jump around through time and affect things in the past.
My dislike of time travel gubbins is due to stuff like that, though in this case there's an element of logic to it. We can assume the other Q ensured the prison itself prevented such things and that, now he's on their shitlist, the other Q would try to prevent him from dicking around with it.
Ultimately, the Q are the best placed to do these sort of shenannigans precisely because we don't know the limitations of their power.
Voyager had its moments
Yup. Definitely worth revisiting.
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@@Unlimited_Lives maybe 1701-A-01
Cliche comment but how this rocked up in my recommended, I dunno but glad it did. Regarding the time shenanigans, de lancie Q does state that humans are early to the delta quadrant so it does seem the Q do have some inherent time abilities, at least to me
Pool cue and snooker cue, no, no omg, no, not allowed 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣💀
End end: well put.
Voyager is not a good TV series overall for many reasons. But it is very much still Star Trek to it’s core and episodes like this prove it.
I also love the serious defense of it at the end, and that it gives a Mic Drop feel as the author says ‘End of Episode’. The potential is there, and it always has been there, to have been amazing if the studio had allowed it to blossom properly. That’s what makes a YT series like this so fascinating because of all the defects and ‘what ifs’ of a bad show are fun to explore, and it’s even cathartic when we arrive at a good episode within.
The premise of this episode fails for several reasons but one in particular is that it is based on a fundamental error, that being that the mind of an immortal immaterial being would function even remotely like ours would. Boredom is caused by a chemical process in the brain which the Q lacks, they aren't physical or temporal so such a concept would be completely alien to them. It makes sense in a setting like Lord of the Rings where the Elves are technically immortal but they are still physical and can still die. And even then it is extremely rare because they view time differently because of their life spans.
10:47 as Q once said "you are thinking about time too linearly"
I did watch this episode and it was a great one. And no fancy anything but acting and it's like measure of a man or the drumhead
One thing I kept wondering about was how that statement of having expercienced EVERYTHING there is to experience is true not only for that one Q but for every Q. So how do they cope with that fact?
Badly, which is why Q keeps dicking around to amuse himself.
Why did LeVar burton's head get shaved in the star trek voyager episode death wish?
Easily one of the best episodes, not just in Voyager but in all of Trek.
Yeah this was one of the, if not the best Q episode.
The writing and acting are top notch, and it does an excellent job of explaining the Q.
Thank you for reminding me that Voyager also had good episodes!
Finding the treasure was one of the reasons for revisiting it. Glad you stuck around.
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10:40 I was hoping the next generation wouldn't think so linearly
Best one yet!
Agreed and/or thank you (depending on whether you meant the episode or the video).
Welcome aboard! You're now the crewmember in charge of keeping fingerprints off all those glossy terminal screens. Who the hell thought that was a good idea? Did we learn nothing from mobile phones?
Ain't gonna lie, Voyager is my least favorite series in the franchise, but that's not saying a whole lot. Given the choice between watching Voyager and literally anything else not Star Trek and I'm still picking Voyager every single time. Bad Trek is like bad pizza: even when it's awful it's still pretty good. I've always loved this episode and I too consider it one of the series standout episodes.