The comments appear to be quite fixated on the text at 4:07. As Lugalbanda was explaining this to me this was a point that was brought up though it's not mentioned this way in their article. I don't believe it was the possible misinterpretation that was poignant but simply how the initial mistake causes a cascade of inserting the incorrect subject (as they are omitted in the Japanese). Sorry for making this particular line seem more disruptive than it is. The key issue is simply with how the later scene contains lines in English that simply don't make sense with this original translation. Thank you! Read Lugal's full article here: xenomira.wordpress.com/2023/05/06/ghondors-path-confusion-mistranslation/
It’s definitely interesting, unfortunately with the current state of RUclips and the internet people probably are just assuming you are saying “dub bad, sub good” Unfortunately instead of people looking at this and seeing another example of how translation and localization is hard, and seeing an interesting thing. They’ll probably just use it as points in an argument. Lol
The problem is, the severe misunderstanding of that line of the official translation cascades into the reading of the entire official translation of that scene not making sense, as it starts trying to interpret the following lines onto the one out there interpretation. Which of course results in those lines not making sense, as it starts with a bad premise. This interestingly demonstrates the original point, of how one error can cascade, not only in understanding Japanese, but also in understanding English, but it distracts from the point, where exactly they differ, if the one, who claims they do, severely misunderstands one of then. That the video uses the Japanese dub for the official english translation breakdown, robbing it of the context of emotions, doesn't help.
I was not confused by this in-game, and I think both the article and video make too big of a deal out of it. Even in English there are things that can go unsaid, which makes the in-game translation work just fine. They have chosen a slightly different angle for some reason, but it got the same point across to me. I’m not convinced it wasn’t intentional, but who knows.
I think that the issues is that, no one who listened to the English dub read it that way. Keep in mind that the dub also has to worry about how this scene relates to the rest of the story. The other thing to remember is that this is not a translation, it is a localization. The goal wasn't to make a straight change of language, but to make the scene work in English. And judging by the comments, they did that.
I never interpreted it as Mio also wanting this, because it was clear that she didn't. I interpreted it as N in denial of the truth and hiding it from Mio.
I never got the vibe that N was saying Mio would want this from the scene, honestly. It always came across like Ghondor saying Mio wouldn’t want this to me. N saying “You don’t need to know” never implied to me that Mio *did* want it to my brain. It just came across as N trying to cut Ghondor off from prying further, since he (N) is trying to cut off his ties to his family sans Mio in this moment. The stuff about Mio potentially siding with Alpha, though, that is kind of interesting; even if I don’t think she would have.
Honestly, while I otherwise agree that the "true" translation handles the scene a little better, I do have to say... I don't think N was implying at all (in the mistranslation) that M also wanted the destruction of the City. I think he was simply refusing the disclose that information to Ghondor. And that fits N's character, as he seems to be trying to shoulder everything he's doing on himself. It's only "his" burden, so far as he's concerned. Not Ghondor's, and certainly not Mio's. Plus, he's already long decided to cut all ties to anything but *his* Mio, for the sake of her and the Endless Now. So in the end, it likely just comes down to him taking the attack on the City on himself, and keeping M as far removed from it as he can. That said, I'm not sure what to make of the part about telling Ghondor "to go." Obviously this is Ghondor's interpretation of what Mio would say, so it fits in his mind and to this scene. Though in reality, I feel like if M knew the whole story of what was going on, she'd clearly be in the fight against Alpha as well (albeit wholeheartedly against the idea of destroying the City in order to do so).
I personally understood the line of "You don't need to know. The burden is mine alone to bear" as N not wanting Ghondor to know that N basically forced M to become Moebius as part of his deal with Z, and that is something only he should have to deal with. "Mum would tell you let it go, I'm sure" is Ghondor saying that M wouldn't want this and that he should leave the City in peace. Then the rest of the scene plays out normal with Ghondor choosing a 3rd option which is to save everyone and leave things to Matthew, using the last of his power to try to save Na'el, and whether intentionally or not, separating Alpha and A. I believe that both versions make sense, but I also see that it could be misunderstood.
I think at a glance, the general meaning and emotion communicates itself across fine. I think so too. But on inspection, the later scene doesn't make sense. Why does Matthew question his grandad's motives in front of N? As in, what would cause him to even consider "why would he side with the likes of you" "that can't be what he meant". I think this is why the original matters, because it shows Ghondor considering the path Mio would've wanted him to take and he rejects that in front of N. N interprets that rejection as Ghondor choosing N's path. Matthew wasn't just calling N an idiot because he is one, but because N misunderstood his son.
From the cutscene where Ghondor used his ouroboros powers and sacrificed himself to save everyone, there is a very very short clip where we see he, in ouroboros form, reaching out to Na’el in a manner of grabbing something. Ghondor most likely intended to free Na’el from Alpha entirely through his ouroboros powers. His ouroboros form was the only way he would be powerful enough to save Na’el from Alpha. It’s not indicated whether anyone knew A was in Alpha at this point. So that can only be his intention. Na’el was taken aback from Ghondor’s action and stepped back a step or two in shock from the approaching Ghondor ouroboros.
@@LXGK I feel like the emotional undertone conveys what is not spoken in this case, N told his son that it was "his burden to bear" as a admission to what he had done. Sometimes I do not like subtitles because what does not "need" to be said if done right in English has to be literally spelled out in Subtitles or what is not said is lost in the process.
@@LXGK in both iterations, it's about the connection N falsely makes with "the future" and the people of the city "embodying" the future, and how that relates to alpha's motives. he says it on prison island, that he thinks ghondor's choice was to sacrifice himself for the sake of depowering alpha, rather than what ghondor's motives actually were. matthew's "that cant be what he meant" makes perfect and absolute sense in eng. like the narration in the video says, matthew's gripe comes from how N misunderstood "the future's in your hands", and that line, along with every other clarification N makes on prison island, is word for word identical in both versions. i do not get how you can come away from this thinking theres a divergence specifically about the matthew argument scene when you literally show that the vital dialogue about that is the same. "why would he question ghondor's motives in front of N?"? its the same words, why would he NOT?
@@lapotato9140 ? While I agree with you overall, I haven't seen a single hint that would show that N thought that Ghondor sacrificed himself to de-power Alpha. N says that Ghondor wanted him to cut him, but there are two things to take into account. 1/, it's a nicer way to describe what happened than "Ghondor just happened to more or less kill himself by jumping in front of me, even if it wasn't the goal and could have been avoided very easily". Which fits with the fact that N is basically taking every single blame onto himself at this point (something the english translation conveys well) even if it makes him look like the devil 2/, N is still N. He's the kind of person that just can't be honest even when his intentions are good. His behaviour at the very end of the game shows this quite well. The only thing it lacks is a "don't dare to think that I'm helping you or anything, baka!".. Other than that, as you said, In english, Matthew's line is specifically about how to Ghondor, he alone isn't the future but everyone else also is; N included. I don't even know how this is supposed to be related to the line about Mio, since to me this one refers quite clearly to the whole Na'el and city situation?
it may just be me but i don't find this error mattering much, thinking that M would want this is illogical having in mind the events of the main game (and i doubt someone would play this before the normal game), so while i think it is a translation error i would not say it mattered that much
Yeah, with the english version it was still quite clear to me that "you don't need to know," is supposed to communicate that N is pushing people away so that he can try to take the full burden for his choice to become Moebius, not that Mio wanted the same thing or anything
@@aaaa69696- I think this thread (my comment is at least) is specifically in reference to the idea that M was implied to want the same as N. Because otherwise I agree that Ghondor’s choice being “inbetween” N and M was lost and is very interesting
Main game Mio didn’t have kids. She can probably be more objective about this than M. Activating origin is the same as erasing your own descendants (the city people) from history, Alpha could easily be an appealing alternative when it was still around.
I find this additional perspective really insightful. The idea that N is unable to bring himself to tell Mio/M what he's done with his own hands really adds a lot to his despair and feeds into his identuty of becoming Moebius. As its stated in the video, this then leading back into N once again being clueless about the feelings of those around him, whether it be M or Ghondor and it really helps to solidify his persona as a weak human being (Which then ties back into Noah and him gaining the strength to fight against it). This is why I love Future Redeemed as it adds so many new nuances to the main game and improves it all significantly (I just wish this was apart of the original game) 😂
it... it was? it was! it literally is. am i going fucking crazy? that IS what N means in the dub by "you dont need to know, the burden is mine alone to bear.", you know, like, the word alone? and how it means one person? what else would he be refering to? the "burden" he is talking about is very clearly the fact that mio doesnt approve, otherwise it just wouldnt make sense. if the answer to "did mom want this too?" was yes, why would N say that??? the reading the video uses is just plainly wrong and contradictory for the sake of discrediting it. am i crazy? am i saying something strange? because i dont think so. i genuinely dont!
@@lapotato9140It would make sense to say if the answer was yes, in the case of N wanting to hide the fact that M also wanted this from Ghondor, to avoid causing him any further emotional & mental damage. (If N still cared enough about Ghondor to do that.) Obviously though, we know that M did NOT want the destruction of The City and to become Moebius to forever live in the endless now, so this doesn't really matter...
4:07 I don't think a single native English speaker interpreted the line in this way. Maybe if you take it EXTREMELY literally then sure, maybe. But it's very easy to understand what is being implied here. It's a mistranslation for sure, but I guess we got lucky that it actually doesn't change much of anything.
I don't think N saying "you don't need to know" in the official translation implies that Mio wanted any of this. And even if it did N is the type of character to believe that to be the case. He spends nearly his entire time as Mobius thinking that what he is doing is what he and Mio want. Even though the translation is different I don't think anything is seriously lost. The focus shifts a bit from the plot with Alpha to N's character but that honestly isn't something that bothers me too much.
He probably made an educated guess in his head that if his father became like that, then his mother who died the same way also came back to life. That's what I would think if I was in Ghondor's place anyway.
Okay so the context in the Japanese is Ghondor is actually tries to tell N about M or his mom probably didn't want N to be moebius and destroy the city.. but he actually guess something at the end why would N have to do this..
Nothing in the scene shows that he knows for certain she's Moebius. All he did was ask if Mio was a part of this which is not unreasonable to think of since his dead dad just came back to life and became Moebius. Then when he talks about what she'd tell him to do, he's thinking of his mother before she became Moebius.
While I agree it is a translation error, in the end I feel it gives a alternative interpretation that still makes sense, N is delusional into what he does, just to stay with M, his perspective was corrupted so much that he doesn’t get M anymore, it’s apparent in the main game when Mio told him that M died because she couldn’t support being Moebius any longer and stay in the endless now. So when Ghondor asked if M wanted this, I see it more like he test N to see if he understand M or not, and instead N avoid the question by stating that this burden is only his, so while all he does hurts him, he does it regardless for M, even though when she sees the city destroyed she’s disgusted. Yes it’s different from the original version, but I think it still make sense.
While I can see the translation having different nuance, I think the actual intention is still fully delivered. At 6:00 you mention how Ghondor believes his mom would tell N "to go" with Alpha but this doesn't make sense? Ghondor literally only met Alpha 5 seconds ago, plus Ghondor also wants to save all Keves and Agnus life (plus the translation given has the pronoun "(me)" referring to Ghondor but not "(you/him)" referring to N??) I think the intention is delivered: N reveals Mio doesn't know about (or want) this because it's his burden, Ghondor tells N that Mio would want him to take another path, Ghondor chooses his path which is sacrificing himself to save Na'El, N confuses what Ghondor meant and Matthew punches him for that.
No in the translation they meant Ghondor by "him". He says he thinks Mio would tell him to go with Alpha towards the future since she said they were their hope. Ghondor refuses this idea which makes N shocked because he does as well. What N doesn't understand is that Ghondor also refuses his choice of protecting Aionios and the endless now as well. The third option he created was to reject both the Moebius and Alpha. Instead of leaving behind this world or keeping it exactly the same. He would rather an option to change it so that everyone gets the chance for a better future. The focus is on Ghondor and what he believes is the right path which he passes on to Matthew who passes it on to the city and it gets passed on all the way back to Noah in the base game who is finally able to get N to also accept this path and bring this idea to fruition.
So in the ENG scene, rather than believing N saying Mio knew about his attack of the City, I read it more as N’s self absorbed and warped world view making him think Mio would be okay with it. I extrapolated from the scene when N and Z make the deal for N and M to become Moebius. Mio is dead on a slab, with Z saying only the life of those in the City would bring her back (obviously metaphorically). So Mio doesn’t know what N is doing until she wakes up after this scene with Gondor and N and she sees what N did. This gives context to the miss translated “The burden is mine alone to bear”, N planned on never telling M what he did to keep them together. Ghondor then, is just trying to see the good in who used to be his kind father and still kind mother. He knows N isn’t doing the right thing no matter what he says, and that Mio would obviously never want it.
I feel like much gets lost here, by pairing the subtitles of the English Dub with the Japanese Dub. Things get lost, when you take away, how it's said. Also, I feel like the Official Translation gets pretty severely misunderstood here. I mean "You don't need to know this, the burden is… mine alone to bear", basically says "Mio doesn't know this, I don't want to tell you, that I do this bring her back as M, even if it's probably against her wishes and I want to spare you from the burden of that knowledge." Ghondor then tells N, that Mio would want N to let go of her, but he knows N can't. That Ghondor can tell exactly, what is going on, despite N not telling him, makes sense, as Matthew did the same earlier in the game. That N thinks, Ghondor sided with him seems to be base mostly on Ghondor's actions, more than his words. In his last moments, Ghondor is speeding towards Alpha, which leads to the creation of A. N seems to thing, that Ghondor sided with him, attacking Na'el to protect the endless now. Also, I kind of doubt, that Mio would have sided with Alpha, though it is an interesting thought.
I took this as Ghondor asking if M wanted to become Moebius instead of her wanting to kill the people of the City, makes much more sense that way (with the "burden" thing too)
After watching the video, there are translation differences, so yeah, mistranslated I guess, but I think both versions work regardless. That being said, the interpretation of the official translation of N and old man Ghondor's dialogue is a crazy reach to me. Mio would never want N to do what he did, period. That goes against M's berating of N in the aftermath and everything she does in the base game. My initial takeaway from the flashback and Prison Island moment on first viewing was that N deluded himself into thinking Ghondor's last-ditch efforts to stop N from killing Na'el and trying to save her was Ghondor trying to maintain the Endless Now. Matthew's "he'd never side with the likes of you" line still tracks because there's no reasonable way that his grandfather would want to side with either Alpha or Moebius. It all makes sense to me, mistranslation or otherwise 🤷
M in the base game knew absolutely nothing about alpha (hence her interpretation of N's actions after the cutscene, that we also soo in part in the base game). The only thing this scene says is that N willingly let Mio in the dark when it comes to problematic things (like having to kill your great-granddaughter because she's possessed by a god trying to erase the world) because to him, he has to shoulder everything. So, her berating is based on informations that are missing to her in the first place. So I don't see it as a reach, at all. It all fits quite nicely. N is here to do the dirty work, something that is clearly unpleasant to him no matter how detached he tries to look, and is stuck between a rock and an hard place. Thus, when Ghondor asks him if Mio knows about what is happening, he basically says "NONE of you have to deal with this crap, it's something that is only relevant to me and I am the only one that should shoulder this".. And I see nothing that would imply that N thought that Ghondor was trying to maintain the endless now. He "he told me to cut him" is basically him trying to be edgy, as always, and trying to put the blame on himself for everything. Regarding Matthew, he's pretty much hyper-emotional at this point and don't even take into account that... His sister was kind of trying to erase the world and would have without N's actions? But notice the difference between the way he speaks to N during this scene and the way to N during the final battle; he's still angry but he now he "has a lot of things to talk to N about". And he's even happy to fight on the same side as N (quite an ironic echo to the previous conversation, where he is more level-headed because Na'el has been separated from Alpha). Matthew isn't exxactly as cold and analytical as Noah, and it shows.
@@tsukicat3143 Your entire paragraph about M missed my point entirely. The reach I was talking about was the conclusion presented in the official translation portion of the video that said M 'apparently' wanted N to do what he did. That is the reach. "And I see nothing that would imply that N thought that Ghondor was trying to maintain the endless now." You didn't, but I did. Hence why at the start I said "my initial takeaway".
Why did so many of these commentors not watch the whole video? It’s not just about M’s opinion, it’s about Ghondor’s choice and N’s understanding of it. The error messes up all of that in english.
Uhh, they probably did. It’s just that no one interpreted N’s statement about M the way the video maker interpreted it. No one’s suggesting the translation isn’t snuffed up.
N says "i killed ghondor because he wanted me to, it was his choice" in the dub exactly the same as he does in the sub, you just missed it. if you think the argument at prison island doesnt make sense in the dub, you must also not think it makes sense in the sub. the level of accuracy you are expecting out of the dub seems to be literally unachievable because you seem to want it to be MORE accurate to the source than the damn source is itself, thus you never get it. but, do you see how you "not getting" it as accurate "as you want" in this case doesnt actually mean its not accurate?
@@lapotato9140 ?? The issue is that N has no (zero) reason to believe that, in fact Ghondor told him to his face that he didn't want to be killed by N. Only in the JP dub is there reason for N to believe that Ghondor would side with him, which is the crux of the issue that was lost in translation.
@@aaaa69696- no, he _implied_ he didnt want to be killed by N, which also happened in the sub version. ghondor told N and matthew that he had "chosen [this] path he would walk", and that he was putting "the future" in their hands, which N misconstrues as meaning the people of the city are "the future" and that N should cut them down to put a wrench in alpha's plan. dont believe me? N says exactly that on prison island, in unedited dialogue. stop lying, _now._
@@lapotato9140 I always agreed N says that, the issue as I've already stated is that Ghondor's words in english don't support N's conclusion. He told Matthew that he left the future in his hands NOT N. He outright disagrees with everything N says until he says a single line "this is the path I have chosen" with no buildup. The audience is left wondering why Ghondor suddenly decides a different path, what that path even is, and N deciding that it was aligned with his makes him look like a total brainlet. How do you see a person disagreeing with you, telling someone ELSE "the future's in your hands" and decide that that means he agreed with you and left the future in your hands??
"You don't need to know" means that the answer to that question is so obvious that N doesn't need to tell tha Mio wouldn't approved this. The change in perspective i the second half is interesting, but I still find it a bit strange on one hand and better on the other
I dont think that translation was that bad but I do think for the scene where matthew proclaims "grandad with never side with the likes of you" it gives more clarification. I sorta understood it but it also felt weird for matthew to say that but knowing now that N thought Ghondor not wanting to join alpha meant he was siding with him makes things clearer
Keep in mind that Matthew is A LOT more emotional and less analytical than Noah, and at this point he was still in shounen mode, talking about saving Na'el but not even knowing how he'd do it. And just before that, he just learned that, oops, Ghondor died because his sister was trying to wipe out the whole world. At this point, Matthew was in full-hate mode and probably still trying to process what happened. (e.g. he was less violent against N of all people than he was against consul W at the beginning of the game and ""let him go"", so he DID understand N's situation in a way. But not enough not to be emotional at this point. And N is not helping with his "yes, I'm a bad guy, I cut him down because he asked me to" schtick even when this was blatantly false; Ghondor forced the sword into himself after being pierced). I don't see how anyone can understand this scene as "N thinks Ghondor support the endless now". Omitting verbs and pronouns can go both ways. Do note that shortly afterward, during the final battle, Matthew's behaviour TOTALLY change. And now, he is still hostile to N but has "a lot of things to say to him" (once again, it's quite different from how he behaved towards W) and is even "happy that right now, they fight on the same side"; something that he clearly couldn't have said after the battle when he was still overcome by emotions.
Thank you for the clarification. The whole Ghondor siding with N thing stuck out like a sore thumb in an otherwise scalding denunciation of N by Matthew. It lines up narratively with Matthew's speech to Na'el about the true enemy as well.
I appreciate the cleanup but at no point did that line imply to me N was telling Ghondor that M knew. It just came off as N being cold and uncaring towards Ghondor, and telling him it's none of his business. The conversation read the same way to me with both translations.
The initial impression I got was of Ghondor being in such disbelief about N's actions that he brought up Mum as a sort of armor-piercing question. When N retorts that the burden is his alone to bear, Ghondor's response is a reminder that Mio would want Noah to let go of that burden, whatever it was (because clearly, if that burden drove N to slaughtering the City, it was not a burden to carry alone, or at all!). As for N's remark about him killing Ghondor being a simple matter of accepting Ghondor's choice...that's pure self-delusional copium on N's part, which Matthew sees right through. That was my impression when playing the game in English.
I wouldn't say it's copium. It looks like another "I'm the only one that should have to shoulder this" part from N. And it's also "nicer" to say this to Matthew rather than "oops, your grandad died because your sister tried to destroy the whole world, and he killed himself by protecting her despite that. It gives Matthew someone to hate (and N clearly is into his "I'm fighting with you, but I'm NOT a "good guy" rhetoric, he does it again a very short time after this part). So I don't even think he's delusional. Just edgy for the sake of it and to play the "bad guy". But as you said, Matthew sees through it. The best indicator is how he behaves afterward. Compare how he acted towards consul W to how he behaves with N after this part. Matthew knows at some level that yes, N didn't kill Ghondor willingly. And note he speaks to N in the final battle. Suddenly, he has "things to say to him" and is even happy that "at that time, they fight on the same side".But what Matthew sees through is just N's behaviour in general and how N tries to make imself look like the one that has to be blamed in every situation (hence Matthew's "I thought you'd say that" during the final battle, he's well-aware of N's "tsundere" tendencies)
The "you don't need to know" thing wasn't that egregious to me, but the english lines regarding what ''Ghondor's Path' actually was were a lot worse considering I wasn't sure what neither Matthew or N were really saying in the scene after. It makes much more sense now.
My interpretation of the English's translation of, "You don't need to know," was it being basically N's own refusal to see the truth and to stop Ghondor from even thinking about it. What also informs my interpretation is the song "A Step Away" that plays during the prison scene in the main game. The song is from a man's point of view to their significant other about how desperate they are to be reunited, but a crucial misunderstanding from the man's side about the feelings of the other resulted in a disconnect despite their close proximity. Knowing that M was actually sitting in the cell next to Noah and not our Mio, and when M says "I'd like to spend that time with MY Noah," she's talking about N, not Noah, the song is about N not understanding M's wishes. So when N says "You don't need to know," what he's saying to me is, "I don't want to know, and you shouldn't think about it either, because the implications suck either way." Either N made a grave error, or M's image in Ghondor's head is tarnished by endorsing something that Ghondor is opposed to.
N is messed up the fact that he layed the entire city & it's people into ruin doesn't even say a single thing to M about their seeing their child ghonder or what he said before his demise he probably doesn't want to hold all that regret later on & says I didn't want to lose any more to Z even if she was sad he still softlocks her into becoming & endless living Moebius the selfishness is real This whole ordeal is why M didn't want to stay with N in this ENDLESS NOW great work LXGX & LugalBanda
I'm four months late, but I think a lot of the misunderstandings about 4:07 can be disregarded, in the sense that no, that's not what N was implying, that M would also want this. His "You don't need to know" in English serves a similar context to "She doesn't need to know" in the Japanese. N is doing this on his own, and he doesn't need anyone else to know about his motivations, or even that he's doing this. HOWEVER. The thing that makes the re-translation better, is the later context. When Ghondor talks about (in the re-translation) how his mother would probably want HIM to go and save himself, to live, maybe even abandon this world, and he says I can't choose that path... that's where the real power of the re-translation lies. This isn't about Ghondor saying to N, "Don't do this." It's him saying "If this is what you want to do, if this is what it's all come down to, then here is MY choice. I won't join you. And I won't save myself. I'll choose a third path." And that path leads to him saving everyone. That's why it's so pivotal that Ghondor's line isn't "I can't let you choose this path," to N, it has to be "I can't choose that path." It's his choice, for himself. Also, N's "This burden is mine to bear" makes perfect sense. M doesn't have to know what he's doing, and Ghondor doesn't need to know why. He's chosen to do this, and he's taking all of it -- the guilt, the reason, the action, all of it -- onto himself. It's very much like N. But yeah, I hope that makes the re-translation make more sense, and explain why it's more important and true to the source than the official translation. I think the explanation of the re-translation is what caused the most confusion. Reading both alongside each other without explanations, that's the takeaway I got. That it makes perfect sense, and the above explanation is why. Anyway.
Basically Ghondor chose the third option of leaving to to Matthew and others destroy the endless now but also stop Alpha so everyone can live. N stupidly thought his son sided with him and Z to protect the endless now. It makes more sense now. It's not that it didn't make sense to begin with but the clarification is nice.
4:04 I get less of a suggestion that Ghondor "wouldnt want to know the truth" and thus "mio did want this" and more of a "he doesnt need to know" as in N doesnt want to tell Ghondor anything because of how much he abhors his own actions deep down. Because he says Need not Know.
I agree the original translation is a BIT weirdly worded. I guess I am just used to that with JRPGs. Makes sense it could be a translation issue. That said, I think it was INCREDIBLY clear Mio never wanted this, didn’t know about it, or why. So it was easy to use context clues to understand the true meaning of this scene. That being N chooses to destroy the city to take out alpha and preserve the endless now. M didn’t know about it, and would be appalled/saddened. Gondor chooses to die a hero, than run away or become a villain. N rewrites history in his head to cope. N also tries to shield M from this pain he is causing, not knowing he is only bringing more pain. All very clear, regardless of minor errors
Late to the party but i kind of leaning to the english localization here. and how the hell does the interpretation on 7:17 and 7:27 came on different from english and jp? i played on english and still came on the same conclusion as Lugal did, as Ghondor just let himself to be killed by N, N deluded as Ghondor at least not opposed to N's decision. Like everyone said in the comments, players who actually cared about the story never interpreted it literally like what Lugal's did. It is in my opinion that the english translation is better as it intensifies N's regret as Ghondor explained that M would tell N to let it go, as it means that not becoming moebius and pursue the eternal now to be with M by slaughthering the city, compared to the JP direct translation where it is just a simple matter of platonic choices that M think either N or Ghondor should take.
Very interesting. At first I thought the modifications were just minor because I thought it would mostly mean Ghondor was talking about what Mio would tell to him to do and not to N as the official translation suggests and I didn't get that the part where Ghondor says she would tell him "to let it go" means choosing Alpha' side. I thought the "to let it go" just meant she would tell him to run away and stay alive. Actually I still don't exactly get what indicates that Ghondor is referring to Alpha' side here but I guess the Japanese dialogue makes it clear. Or is it that the "to let it go" is actually a "to go" instead ? Regarding implying that's what N says Mio wants, I don't think it's that important anyway because if we beat Xenoblade 3, we perfectly already know that's surely not what M wanted because that's precisely what makes her so sad, he didn't understand what she really wanted. So we know from the beginning N doesn't know what M wants. But in this perspective that Mio would choose Alpha' side or would tell to Ghondor to choose Alpha' side, I think it changes everything indeed. Everything and the next dialogue in Prison Island with N makes so much more sense now. That also explains that Matthew just found what Ghondor had truly chosen. That tells us that's the exact same path Matthew chooses to follow when he talks to Na'el and tells her their ennemies are all the people who want to prevent them from building the happy future their great grandparents dreamed about back then.
Your interpretation is incredible, I never thought of it that way. I always interpreted N saying “you don’t need to know, the burden is mine alone to bear” as him willingly not telling Mio that Alpha was the reason he killed everyone, as he already went through too much by becoming Moebius. So essentially, N was willing to do the sacrifice himself in order to keep the world going even if it meant making himself suffer, and he obviously didn’t want M to suffer with that knowledge. Thing is however, that’s exactly what breaks him furthermore and what makes him oblivious to M’s desire to have him go back to the old Noah. And that’s what makes Noah tell Z in the base game that he gave those two an impossible choice, since because he fused with N, he has access to N’s memories at that point. Man I love this franchise so much.
Here is a long theory i had with this scene that some people didn't understand. This does not underplay what Zed and N agree on for the endless now. We were only given partial information in Base 3 and in Future Redeemed, we get the rest of it. M was not meant to know about this at all. N was to protect the endless now by stopping Alpha by any means necessary. N still has attachment. He did not want to kill his own son, but he never met or knew Na'el. Like any one with growling family members, if you don't know em then they don't always matter to you. It sounds harsh but if you mom told you that Her sister's husband's second cousin from 7 states over passed away, and you never met em or knew em. She may as well told you she lost 50 bucks because it would emotionally impact you the same. You would just say, "that sucks" and move on. N doesn't have attachment to Na'el and will kill her to protect what he DOES know. M was suppose to be kept away from N during this entire mission, because M would try to interfere. When M shows up after all this, N would not tell her anything. He shoulders it and moves on, while M thinks N just murdered their son in cold blood. Now while the game doesn't say that Zed has direct control over the consuls, I believe he does. This is why Mio was not involved with N moving forward until after the events of Future Redeemed. Zed kept her locked up and gave her free movement when Alpha was no longer a threat. Bear in mind, Mio could very well be what Alpha needed as much as Na'el was if not more so. Why present a nuke to someone who already had a rocket launcher. Keeping Mio away makes sense. Now did Mio ever find out the truth? No. Or else she would have told Noah the truth. She still had to play 5D chess with her other self to free herself from the endless now. Putting her soul, that Zed can manipulate, in a body designed to expire. All the while the free soul from Mio was able to have her immortal body. It wasn't the body Zed controls, but the soul. Noah and N would form a union with less convolution towards the end and achieve the same results. The real Noah and Mio would eventually be able to stop Zed only because Matthew was able to stop Alpha and trigger the reaction with in origin to allow Noah to separate and be re-introduced into the cycle and Mio being linked to both Matthew by blood and Noah through memory was also introduced back into the cycle. Alpha who was the conscience of Alvis and was linked to Origin in ways was able to see that the future had hope. Not with Matthew or Na'el, but with Noah and Mio. Matthew might have had a feeling about this when he confronted N one last time. Having a feeling that his great grandfather would be able to bring his old self back and fight for what was right. Just not in the way Matthew expected. I hope this clears up a few things and shows that Future Redeemed didn't ruin what N did to the city. We only knew it from Mio's perspective. We now see it through N's perspective. It hurts more now that we know N still had a heart and just chose to suffer in silence so M could exist. Since telling her the truth would probably destroy her more than just assuming N did this for their immortality. Ok im done. Feel free to roast me and tell me i'm wrong now XD
I think the translation was fine, as you have to translate it not just in english, but also in a sense that would make sense to the western audience. The "corrected" translation, maybe although "more accurate", does not make sense to me and made more vague and weird to be honest. And the insertion of "Alpha" into the explanation made it more and more confusing. The ingame translation is fine, and made more sense.
I get that in the correct translation, it implies Ghondor thinks Mio would want him to go with Alpha and that he decides to reject that path, which could lead N to think he decided to side with Moebius instead. However... either way, from N's perspective, Ghondor just blows himself up while clutching his sword, instead of like, just letting him past so he can deal with Na'el/Alpha like he was going to. Surely that would appear to N that Ghondor was trying to stop him, no? In which case N really shouldn't have believed Ghondor was siding with him unless he was completely delusional. Which he was, but then that is a sufficient explanation for either translation.
While I think it makes a lot of sense, I can't think of Mio believing the best thing to do for Ghondor is leaving with Alpha, destroying all previous life, and nor why Ghondor would believe such a thing of his mother. I think that Mio would support the "third option" Ghondor chooses. May it be simply a misunderstanding by Ghondor? I don't really know
You are literally putting words in people's mouths. This whole video is just you taking your "interpretations" of what was "implied" and inserting them as the actual dialogue which is the biggest mistake a translator can make. Matthew's frustration with N's twisted narrative is adequately portrayed in the translation.
I feel like N's lines were interpreted rather well given the situation. With English contexts, "The burden is mine alone to bear" is a much stronger line in general. However, I do agree that Ghondor's lines were mixed up, cascading to the confusion with what Matthew and N say in Prison Island. It also accidentally makes Ghondor seem like he knows that N is doing this for Mio, which imo doesn't make much sense.
i really dont think that at all, im pretty sure in either version of the script, our inclination as semiomnipotent audience members who know things ahead of time is gearing us to think about it in relation to fueling M and throwing us off, ghondor never directly implies he knows that at all. he brings up M on his own, saying "but what about mom", in a way as if he is bringing the concept of M INTO the picture, as if he doesnt know shes ALREADY involved as is.
I can double confirm the translation could be wrong since I played with the official Chinese sub. In the chinese sub Ghondar says Mio would support N's decision, which is again different than the English one's When reading through the Japanese text, I do think your interpretation makes the most sense
OMG. So N siding with Matthew ang gang in the end actually makes much more sense now. N is choosing Ghondor's path by siding with Matthew. He chose his son's path. Oh gosh, N! 😭😭😭😭😭
Interesting. This makes me wonder what else might have been less directly translated with the English script. I found myself feeling like there was a lot of exposition missing, a lot of loose ends, and mostly a lack of clear motivations for certain characters (esp. Alpha) in the DLC, so now I’m curious if all of these things are truly “missing” or just mistranslated. Granted, I feel like my understanding of this particular scene coupling hasn’t changed too drastically with the original meaning vs. the translation… I always had the idea that N was simply rationalizing Ghondor’s death as “part of the plan” and “allowable” due to Ghondor’s self-sacrifice releasing A, thwarting Alpha, and destroying the other Citizens (just as he rationalizes being Moebius and pulling Mio into it as well, because time with Mio is the ONLY thing he cares about). And naturally, Matthew was full of upset (and beans), so anything N could have implied about him being in the right on this event or that he *wasn’t* solely responsible for Ghondor’s death was going to get pushback. However, I definitely would have never gotten the idea that Ghondor thought Mio would tell him to leave with Alpha unless I was told it, so thanks for sharing this.
See while that is true, this one just isn’t bad. Yeah it was changed slightly but the message was still very clear. LXGX just simply misinterpreted it themselves and made this video about it
@@ElectricRustyBanana Please read the end of the video. The video itself was a favour for Lugalbanda who wanted this video made for their article (these are their translation and explanations). But if you would like my opinion, I don't think it's a misinterpretation. I agree with Lugal's explanations and it improves the scene in my eyes and helps make the subsequent scene make more sense.
I had gotten the gist of the scene even with the awkward line of that N gets. However, this retranslation/contextualization makes grampa Ghondor much more of a badass that what he already was. Good stuff!
This is a problem with jrpgs, the subtitles are always synchronized with his dubbed voices. So when you play with the original dub and subtitles, there are always differences. If you understand a little of both languages, your brain will crash when interpreting lol
![Theory of Everything [Xenoblade 1 & 2 to X] - XenoTheory](/img/1.gif)
The comments appear to be quite fixated on the text at 4:07. As Lugalbanda was explaining this to me this was a point that was brought up though it's not mentioned this way in their article. I don't believe it was the possible misinterpretation that was poignant but simply how the initial mistake causes a cascade of inserting the incorrect subject (as they are omitted in the Japanese). Sorry for making this particular line seem more disruptive than it is. The key issue is simply with how the later scene contains lines in English that simply don't make sense with this original translation. Thank you!
Read Lugal's full article here: xenomira.wordpress.com/2023/05/06/ghondors-path-confusion-mistranslation/
It’s definitely interesting, unfortunately with the current state of RUclips and the internet people probably are just assuming you are saying “dub bad, sub good”
Unfortunately instead of people looking at this and seeing another example of how translation and localization is hard, and seeing an interesting thing.
They’ll probably just use it as points in an argument. Lol
The problem is, the severe misunderstanding of that line of the official translation cascades into the reading of the entire official translation of that scene not making sense, as it starts trying to interpret the following lines onto the one out there interpretation. Which of course results in those lines not making sense, as it starts with a bad premise. This interestingly demonstrates the original point, of how one error can cascade, not only in understanding Japanese, but also in understanding English, but it distracts from the point, where exactly they differ, if the one, who claims they do, severely misunderstands one of then. That the video uses the Japanese dub for the official english translation breakdown, robbing it of the context of emotions, doesn't help.
I was not confused by this in-game, and I think both the article and video make too big of a deal out of it. Even in English there are things that can go unsaid, which makes the in-game translation work just fine. They have chosen a slightly different angle for some reason, but it got the same point across to me. I’m not convinced it wasn’t intentional, but who knows.
@@saschb at the end of the day it seems like most people got the intention so I think it worked out lol
I think that the issues is that, no one who listened to the English dub read it that way. Keep in mind that the dub also has to worry about how this scene relates to the rest of the story. The other thing to remember is that this is not a translation, it is a localization. The goal wasn't to make a straight change of language, but to make the scene work in English. And judging by the comments, they did that.
I never interpreted it as Mio also wanting this, because it was clear that she didn't. I interpreted it as N in denial of the truth and hiding it from Mio.
Yeah, same, if he did imply that, the burden wouldn't be on just him.
@@KilleRoy_NL true, it also confirms why he'd say "you don't need to know" showing his posessive nature over M/Mio
I never got the vibe that N was saying Mio would want this from the scene, honestly. It always came across like Ghondor saying Mio wouldn’t want this to me.
N saying “You don’t need to know” never implied to me that Mio *did* want it to my brain. It just came across as N trying to cut Ghondor off from prying further, since he (N) is trying to cut off his ties to his family sans Mio in this moment.
The stuff about Mio potentially siding with Alpha, though, that is kind of interesting; even if I don’t think she would have.
Honestly, while I otherwise agree that the "true" translation handles the scene a little better, I do have to say... I don't think N was implying at all (in the mistranslation) that M also wanted the destruction of the City. I think he was simply refusing the disclose that information to Ghondor.
And that fits N's character, as he seems to be trying to shoulder everything he's doing on himself. It's only "his" burden, so far as he's concerned. Not Ghondor's, and certainly not Mio's. Plus, he's already long decided to cut all ties to anything but *his* Mio, for the sake of her and the Endless Now. So in the end, it likely just comes down to him taking the attack on the City on himself, and keeping M as far removed from it as he can.
That said, I'm not sure what to make of the part about telling Ghondor "to go." Obviously this is Ghondor's interpretation of what Mio would say, so it fits in his mind and to this scene. Though in reality, I feel like if M knew the whole story of what was going on, she'd clearly be in the fight against Alpha as well (albeit wholeheartedly against the idea of destroying the City in order to do so).
I personally understood the line of "You don't need to know. The burden is mine alone to bear" as N not wanting Ghondor to know that N basically forced M to become Moebius as part of his deal with Z, and that is something only he should have to deal with. "Mum would tell you let it go, I'm sure" is Ghondor saying that M wouldn't want this and that he should leave the City in peace. Then the rest of the scene plays out normal with Ghondor choosing a 3rd option which is to save everyone and leave things to Matthew, using the last of his power to try to save Na'el, and whether intentionally or not, separating Alpha and A. I believe that both versions make sense, but I also see that it could be misunderstood.
I think at a glance, the general meaning and emotion communicates itself across fine. I think so too. But on inspection, the later scene doesn't make sense. Why does Matthew question his grandad's motives in front of N? As in, what would cause him to even consider "why would he side with the likes of you" "that can't be what he meant". I think this is why the original matters, because it shows Ghondor considering the path Mio would've wanted him to take and he rejects that in front of N. N interprets that rejection as Ghondor choosing N's path. Matthew wasn't just calling N an idiot because he is one, but because N misunderstood his son.
From the cutscene where Ghondor used his ouroboros powers and sacrificed himself to save everyone, there is a very very short clip where we see he, in ouroboros form, reaching out to Na’el in a manner of grabbing something.
Ghondor most likely intended to free Na’el from Alpha entirely through his ouroboros powers. His ouroboros form was the only way he would be powerful enough to save Na’el from Alpha. It’s not indicated whether anyone knew A was in Alpha at this point. So that can only be his intention.
Na’el was taken aback from Ghondor’s action and stepped back a step or two in shock from the approaching Ghondor ouroboros.
@@LXGK I feel like the emotional undertone conveys what is not spoken in this case, N told his son that it was "his burden to bear" as a admission to what he had done.
Sometimes I do not like subtitles because what does not "need" to be said if done right in English has to be literally spelled out in Subtitles or what is not said is lost in the process.
@@LXGK in both iterations, it's about the connection N falsely makes with "the future" and the people of the city "embodying" the future, and how that relates to alpha's motives. he says it on prison island, that he thinks ghondor's choice was to sacrifice himself for the sake of depowering alpha, rather than what ghondor's motives actually were. matthew's "that cant be what he meant" makes perfect and absolute sense in eng.
like the narration in the video says, matthew's gripe comes from how N misunderstood "the future's in your hands", and that line, along with every other clarification N makes on prison island, is word for word identical in both versions. i do not get how you can come away from this thinking theres a divergence specifically about the matthew argument scene when you literally show that the vital dialogue about that is the same. "why would he question ghondor's motives in front of N?"? its the same words, why would he NOT?
@@lapotato9140 ? While I agree with you overall, I haven't seen a single hint that would show that N thought that Ghondor sacrificed himself to de-power Alpha. N says that Ghondor wanted him to cut him, but there are two things to take into account.
1/, it's a nicer way to describe what happened than "Ghondor just happened to more or less kill himself by jumping in front of me, even if it wasn't the goal and could have been avoided very easily". Which fits with the fact that N is basically taking every single blame onto himself at this point (something the english translation conveys well) even if it makes him look like the devil
2/, N is still N. He's the kind of person that just can't be honest even when his intentions are good. His behaviour at the very end of the game shows this quite well. The only thing it lacks is a "don't dare to think that I'm helping you or anything, baka!"..
Other than that, as you said, In english, Matthew's line is specifically about how to Ghondor, he alone isn't the future but everyone else also is; N included.
I don't even know how this is supposed to be related to the line about Mio, since to me this one refers quite clearly to the whole Na'el and city situation?
it may just be me but i don't find this error mattering much, thinking that M would want this is illogical having in mind the events of the main game (and i doubt someone would play this before the normal game), so while i think it is a translation error i would not say it mattered that much
Yeah, with the english version it was still quite clear to me that "you don't need to know," is supposed to communicate that N is pushing people away so that he can try to take the full burden for his choice to become Moebius, not that Mio wanted the same thing or anything
The context it adds to the argument with N and Matthew is crucial. It’s not that small
@@aaaa69696- I think this thread (my comment is at least) is specifically in reference to the idea that M was implied to want the same as N. Because otherwise I agree that Ghondor’s choice being “inbetween” N and M was lost and is very interesting
@@Ketagcn I see, yeah you make sense. The OP did say "Doesn't matter that much", I was disagreeing with them mainly
Main game Mio didn’t have kids. She can probably be more objective about this than M. Activating origin is the same as erasing your own descendants (the city people) from history, Alpha could easily be an appealing alternative when it was still around.
I find this additional perspective really insightful. The idea that N is unable to bring himself to tell Mio/M what he's done with his own hands really adds a lot to his despair and feeds into his identuty of becoming Moebius. As its stated in the video, this then leading back into N once again being clueless about the feelings of those around him, whether it be M or Ghondor and it really helps to solidify his persona as a weak human being (Which then ties back into Noah and him gaining the strength to fight against it). This is why I love Future Redeemed as it adds so many new nuances to the main game and improves it all significantly (I just wish this was apart of the original game) 😂
it... it was? it was! it literally is. am i going fucking crazy? that IS what N means in the dub by "you dont need to know, the burden is mine alone to bear.", you know, like, the word alone? and how it means one person? what else would he be refering to? the "burden" he is talking about is very clearly the fact that mio doesnt approve, otherwise it just wouldnt make sense. if the answer to "did mom want this too?" was yes, why would N say that??? the reading the video uses is just plainly wrong and contradictory for the sake of discrediting it. am i crazy? am i saying something strange? because i dont think so. i genuinely dont!
@La Potato i agree. The video provides nothing i already didnt know about the story.
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ITS THIS GUY
@@lapotato9140It would make sense to say if the answer was yes, in the case of N wanting to hide the fact that M also wanted this from Ghondor, to avoid causing him any further emotional & mental damage. (If N still cared enough about Ghondor to do that.)
Obviously though, we know that M did NOT want the destruction of The City and to become Moebius to forever live in the endless now, so this doesn't really matter...
4:07 I don't think a single native English speaker interpreted the line in this way. Maybe if you take it EXTREMELY literally then sure, maybe. But it's very easy to understand what is being implied here. It's a mistranslation for sure, but I guess we got lucky that it actually doesn't change much of anything.
I don't think N saying "you don't need to know" in the official translation implies that Mio wanted any of this. And even if it did N is the type of character to believe that to be the case. He spends nearly his entire time as Mobius thinking that what he is doing is what he and Mio want. Even though the translation is different I don't think anything is seriously lost. The focus shifts a bit from the plot with Alpha to N's character but that honestly isn't something that bothers me too much.
This is a personal theory of yours, the line "you don't need to know" dosen't implies a Mio involvement necessarily
But how would Ghondor know Mio became a Moebius though? That’s something that leaves me a bit confused about the original Japanese version.
He probably made an educated guess in his head that if his father became like that, then his mother who died the same way also came back to life.
That's what I would think if I was in Ghondor's place anyway.
Okay so the context in the Japanese is Ghondor is actually tries to tell N about M or his mom probably didn't want N to be moebius and destroy the city.. but he actually guess something at the end why would N have to do this..
He doesn’t know. He’s just saying that he believes his mother would be more compassionate than his father.
Nothing in the scene shows that he knows for certain she's Moebius. All he did was ask if Mio was a part of this which is not unreasonable to think of since his dead dad just came back to life and became Moebius.
Then when he talks about what she'd tell him to do, he's thinking of his mother before she became Moebius.
While I agree it is a translation error, in the end I feel it gives a alternative interpretation that still makes sense, N is delusional into what he does, just to stay with M, his perspective was corrupted so much that he doesn’t get M anymore, it’s apparent in the main game when Mio told him that M died because she couldn’t support being Moebius any longer and stay in the endless now.
So when Ghondor asked if M wanted this, I see it more like he test N to see if he understand M or not, and instead N avoid the question by stating that this burden is only his, so while all he does hurts him, he does it regardless for M, even though when she sees the city destroyed she’s disgusted.
Yes it’s different from the original version, but I think it still make sense.
While I can see the translation having different nuance, I think the actual intention is still fully delivered. At 6:00 you mention how Ghondor believes his mom would tell N "to go" with Alpha but this doesn't make sense? Ghondor literally only met Alpha 5 seconds ago, plus Ghondor also wants to save all Keves and Agnus life (plus the translation given has the pronoun "(me)" referring to Ghondor but not "(you/him)" referring to N??)
I think the intention is delivered: N reveals Mio doesn't know about (or want) this because it's his burden, Ghondor tells N that Mio would want him to take another path, Ghondor chooses his path which is sacrificing himself to save Na'El, N confuses what Ghondor meant and Matthew punches him for that.
No in the translation they meant Ghondor by "him". He says he thinks Mio would tell him to go with Alpha towards the future since she said they were their hope. Ghondor refuses this idea which makes N shocked because he does as well. What N doesn't understand is that Ghondor also refuses his choice of protecting Aionios and the endless now as well.
The third option he created was to reject both the Moebius and Alpha. Instead of leaving behind this world or keeping it exactly the same. He would rather an option to change it so that everyone gets the chance for a better future.
The focus is on Ghondor and what he believes is the right path which he passes on to Matthew who passes it on to the city and it gets passed on all the way back to Noah in the base game who is finally able to get N to also accept this path and bring this idea to fruition.
Thought it was fine. It made perfect sense. Odd video; the message and meaning of the dialogue is still preserved in the translation.
While this is a pretty good analysis, much like other fan translations, I think you interpreted the dialogue *too* literally in your translation.
So in the ENG scene, rather than believing N saying Mio knew about his attack of the City, I read it more as N’s self absorbed and warped world view making him think Mio would be okay with it.
I extrapolated from the scene when N and Z make the deal for N and M to become Moebius. Mio is dead on a slab, with Z saying only the life of those in the City would bring her back (obviously metaphorically). So Mio doesn’t know what N is doing until she wakes up after this scene with Gondor and N and she sees what N did.
This gives context to the miss translated “The burden is mine alone to bear”, N planned on never telling M what he did to keep them together.
Ghondor then, is just trying to see the good in who used to be his kind father and still kind mother. He knows N isn’t doing the right thing no matter what he says, and that Mio would obviously never want it.
This context makes this scene and the entire ending so much better, tysm for this.
I feel like much gets lost here, by pairing the subtitles of the English Dub with the Japanese Dub. Things get lost, when you take away, how it's said. Also, I feel like the Official Translation gets pretty severely misunderstood here.
I mean "You don't need to know this, the burden is… mine alone to bear", basically says "Mio doesn't know this, I don't want to tell you, that I do this bring her back as M, even if it's probably against her wishes and I want to spare you from the burden of that knowledge."
Ghondor then tells N, that Mio would want N to let go of her, but he knows N can't. That Ghondor can tell exactly, what is going on, despite N not telling him, makes sense, as Matthew did the same earlier in the game.
That N thinks, Ghondor sided with him seems to be base mostly on Ghondor's actions, more than his words. In his last moments, Ghondor is speeding towards Alpha, which leads to the creation of A. N seems to thing, that Ghondor sided with him, attacking Na'el to protect the endless now.
Also, I kind of doubt, that Mio would have sided with Alpha, though it is an interesting thought.
I took this as Ghondor asking if M wanted to become Moebius instead of her wanting to kill the people of the City, makes much more sense that way (with the "burden" thing too)
After watching the video, there are translation differences, so yeah, mistranslated I guess, but I think both versions work regardless.
That being said, the interpretation of the official translation of N and old man Ghondor's dialogue is a crazy reach to me. Mio would never want N to do what he did, period. That goes against M's berating of N in the aftermath and everything she does in the base game.
My initial takeaway from the flashback and Prison Island moment on first viewing was that N deluded himself into thinking Ghondor's last-ditch efforts to stop N from killing Na'el and trying to save her was Ghondor trying to maintain the Endless Now. Matthew's "he'd never side with the likes of you" line still tracks because there's no reasonable way that his grandfather would want to side with either Alpha or Moebius. It all makes sense to me, mistranslation or otherwise 🤷
M in the base game knew absolutely nothing about alpha (hence her interpretation of N's actions after the cutscene, that we also soo in part in the base game). The only thing this scene says is that N willingly let Mio in the dark when it comes to problematic things (like having to kill your great-granddaughter because she's possessed by a god trying to erase the world) because to him, he has to shoulder everything. So, her berating is based on informations that are missing to her in the first place. So I don't see it as a reach, at all. It all fits quite nicely. N is here to do the dirty work, something that is clearly unpleasant to him no matter how detached he tries to look, and is stuck between a rock and an hard place.
Thus, when Ghondor asks him if Mio knows about what is happening, he basically says "NONE of you have to deal with this crap, it's something that is only relevant to me and I am the only one that should shoulder this"..
And I see nothing that would imply that N thought that Ghondor was trying to maintain the endless now. He "he told me to cut him" is basically him trying to be edgy, as always, and trying to put the blame on himself for everything.
Regarding Matthew, he's pretty much hyper-emotional at this point and don't even take into account that... His sister was kind of trying to erase the world and would have without N's actions? But notice the difference between the way he speaks to N during this scene and the way to N during the final battle; he's still angry but he now he "has a lot of things to talk to N about". And he's even happy to fight on the same side as N (quite an ironic echo to the previous conversation, where he is more level-headed because Na'el has been separated from Alpha). Matthew isn't exxactly as cold and analytical as Noah, and it shows.
@@tsukicat3143 Your entire paragraph about M missed my point entirely. The reach I was talking about was the conclusion presented in the official translation portion of the video that said M 'apparently' wanted N to do what he did. That is the reach.
"And I see nothing that would imply that N thought that Ghondor was trying to maintain the endless now."
You didn't, but I did. Hence why at the start I said "my initial takeaway".
Why did so many of these commentors not watch the whole video? It’s not just about M’s opinion, it’s about Ghondor’s choice and N’s understanding of it. The error messes up all of that in english.
Uhh, they probably did. It’s just that no one interpreted N’s statement about M the way the video maker interpreted it. No one’s suggesting the translation isn’t snuffed up.
N says "i killed ghondor because he wanted me to, it was his choice" in the dub exactly the same as he does in the sub, you just missed it. if you think the argument at prison island doesnt make sense in the dub, you must also not think it makes sense in the sub. the level of accuracy you are expecting out of the dub seems to be literally unachievable because you seem to want it to be MORE accurate to the source than the damn source is itself, thus you never get it. but, do you see how you "not getting" it as accurate "as you want" in this case doesnt actually mean its not accurate?
@@lapotato9140 ?? The issue is that N has no (zero) reason to believe that, in fact Ghondor told him to his face that he didn't want to be killed by N.
Only in the JP dub is there reason for N to believe that Ghondor would side with him, which is the crux of the issue that was lost in translation.
@@aaaa69696- no, he _implied_ he didnt want to be killed by N, which also happened in the sub version. ghondor told N and matthew that he had "chosen [this] path he would walk", and that he was putting "the future" in their hands, which N misconstrues as meaning the people of the city are "the future" and that N should cut them down to put a wrench in alpha's plan. dont believe me? N says exactly that on prison island, in unedited dialogue. stop lying, _now._
@@lapotato9140 I always agreed N says that, the issue as I've already stated is that Ghondor's words in english don't support N's conclusion.
He told Matthew that he left the future in his hands NOT N. He outright disagrees with everything N says until he says a single line "this is the path I have chosen" with no buildup. The audience is left wondering why Ghondor suddenly decides a different path, what that path even is, and N deciding that it was aligned with his makes him look like a total brainlet.
How do you see a person disagreeing with you, telling someone ELSE "the future's in your hands" and decide that that means he agreed with you and left the future in your hands??
"You don't need to know" means that the answer to that question is so obvious that N doesn't need to tell tha Mio wouldn't approved this.
The change in perspective i the second half is interesting, but I still find it a bit strange on one hand and better on the other
4:18 I feel like the line makes decent sense in the original context, She doesn't need to know, the burden is mine alone to bear.
I dont think that translation was that bad but I do think for the scene where matthew proclaims "grandad with never side with the likes of you" it gives more clarification. I sorta understood it but it also felt weird for matthew to say that but knowing now that N thought Ghondor not wanting to join alpha meant he was siding with him makes things clearer
Keep in mind that Matthew is A LOT more emotional and less analytical than Noah, and at this point he was still in shounen mode, talking about saving Na'el but not even knowing how he'd do it. And just before that, he just learned that, oops, Ghondor died because his sister was trying to wipe out the whole world. At this point, Matthew was in full-hate mode and probably still trying to process what happened. (e.g. he was less violent against N of all people than he was against consul W at the beginning of the game and ""let him go"", so he DID understand N's situation in a way. But not enough not to be emotional at this point. And N is not helping with his "yes, I'm a bad guy, I cut him down because he asked me to" schtick even when this was blatantly false; Ghondor forced the sword into himself after being pierced).
I don't see how anyone can understand this scene as "N thinks Ghondor support the endless now". Omitting verbs and pronouns can go both ways.
Do note that shortly afterward, during the final battle, Matthew's behaviour TOTALLY change. And now, he is still hostile to N but has "a lot of things to say to him" (once again, it's quite different from how he behaved towards W) and is even "happy that right now, they fight on the same side"; something that he clearly couldn't have said after the battle when he was still overcome by emotions.
Thank you for the clarification. The whole Ghondor siding with N thing stuck out like a sore thumb in an otherwise scalding denunciation of N by Matthew. It lines up narratively with Matthew's speech to Na'el about the true enemy as well.
I appreciate the cleanup but at no point did that line imply to me N was telling Ghondor that M knew. It just came off as N being cold and uncaring towards Ghondor, and telling him it's none of his business. The conversation read the same way to me with both translations.
The initial impression I got was of Ghondor being in such disbelief about N's actions that he brought up Mum as a sort of armor-piercing question.
When N retorts that the burden is his alone to bear, Ghondor's response is a reminder that Mio would want Noah to let go of that burden, whatever it was (because clearly, if that burden drove N to slaughtering the City, it was not a burden to carry alone, or at all!).
As for N's remark about him killing Ghondor being a simple matter of accepting Ghondor's choice...that's pure self-delusional copium on N's part, which Matthew sees right through.
That was my impression when playing the game in English.
I wouldn't say it's copium. It looks like another "I'm the only one that should have to shoulder this" part from N. And it's also "nicer" to say this to Matthew rather than "oops, your grandad died because your sister tried to destroy the whole world, and he killed himself by protecting her despite that. It gives Matthew someone to hate (and N clearly is into his "I'm fighting with you, but I'm NOT a "good guy" rhetoric, he does it again a very short time after this part).
So I don't even think he's delusional. Just edgy for the sake of it and to play the "bad guy".
But as you said, Matthew sees through it. The best indicator is how he behaves afterward. Compare how he acted towards consul W to how he behaves with N after this part. Matthew knows at some level that yes, N didn't kill Ghondor willingly. And note he speaks to N in the final battle. Suddenly, he has "things to say to him" and is even happy that "at that time, they fight on the same side".But what Matthew sees through is just N's behaviour in general and how N tries to make imself look like the one that has to be blamed in every situation (hence Matthew's "I thought you'd say that" during the final battle, he's well-aware of N's "tsundere" tendencies)
The "you don't need to know" thing wasn't that egregious to me, but the english lines regarding what ''Ghondor's Path' actually was were a lot worse considering I wasn't sure what neither Matthew or N were really saying in the scene after. It makes much more sense now.
dude, N really is just a punching bag isn't he, every detail about any scene with him just makes his tory much more sadder
My interpretation of the English's translation of, "You don't need to know," was it being basically N's own refusal to see the truth and to stop Ghondor from even thinking about it.
What also informs my interpretation is the song "A Step Away" that plays during the prison scene in the main game. The song is from a man's point of view to their significant other about how desperate they are to be reunited, but a crucial misunderstanding from the man's side about the feelings of the other resulted in a disconnect despite their close proximity. Knowing that M was actually sitting in the cell next to Noah and not our Mio, and when M says "I'd like to spend that time with MY Noah," she's talking about N, not Noah, the song is about N not understanding M's wishes.
So when N says "You don't need to know," what he's saying to me is, "I don't want to know, and you shouldn't think about it either, because the implications suck either way." Either N made a grave error, or M's image in Ghondor's head is tarnished by endorsing something that Ghondor is opposed to.
Judging by most of the comments this seems like more of a you problem. There is not really anything to be upset or confused about here.
N is messed up the fact that he layed the entire city & it's people into ruin doesn't even say a single thing to M about their seeing their child ghonder or what he said before his demise he probably doesn't want to hold all that regret later on & says I didn't want to lose any more to Z even if she was sad he still softlocks her into becoming & endless living Moebius the selfishness is real This whole ordeal is why M didn't want to stay with N in this ENDLESS NOW
great work LXGX & LugalBanda
Definitely prefer the official translation. Thank you for such a thorough analysis!
I'm four months late, but I think a lot of the misunderstandings about 4:07 can be disregarded, in the sense that no, that's not what N was implying, that M would also want this. His "You don't need to know" in English serves a similar context to "She doesn't need to know" in the Japanese. N is doing this on his own, and he doesn't need anyone else to know about his motivations, or even that he's doing this.
HOWEVER. The thing that makes the re-translation better, is the later context. When Ghondor talks about (in the re-translation) how his mother would probably want HIM to go and save himself, to live, maybe even abandon this world, and he says I can't choose that path... that's where the real power of the re-translation lies. This isn't about Ghondor saying to N, "Don't do this." It's him saying "If this is what you want to do, if this is what it's all come down to, then here is MY choice. I won't join you. And I won't save myself. I'll choose a third path." And that path leads to him saving everyone. That's why it's so pivotal that Ghondor's line isn't "I can't let you choose this path," to N, it has to be "I can't choose that path." It's his choice, for himself.
Also, N's "This burden is mine to bear" makes perfect sense. M doesn't have to know what he's doing, and Ghondor doesn't need to know why. He's chosen to do this, and he's taking all of it -- the guilt, the reason, the action, all of it -- onto himself. It's very much like N.
But yeah, I hope that makes the re-translation make more sense, and explain why it's more important and true to the source than the official translation. I think the explanation of the re-translation is what caused the most confusion. Reading both alongside each other without explanations, that's the takeaway I got. That it makes perfect sense, and the above explanation is why. Anyway.
Basically Ghondor chose the third option of leaving to to Matthew and others destroy the endless now but also stop Alpha so everyone can live. N stupidly thought his son sided with him and Z to protect the endless now. It makes more sense now. It's not that it didn't make sense to begin with but the clarification is nice.
It’s not a mistranslation in this case it’s just different interpretations neither is wrong
4:04 I get less of a suggestion that Ghondor "wouldnt want to know the truth" and thus "mio did want this" and more of a "he doesnt need to know" as in N doesnt want to tell Ghondor anything because of how much he abhors his own actions deep down. Because he says Need not Know.
I agree the original translation is a BIT weirdly worded. I guess I am just used to that with JRPGs. Makes sense it could be a translation issue.
That said, I think it was INCREDIBLY clear Mio never wanted this, didn’t know about it, or why.
So it was easy to use context clues to understand the true meaning of this scene.
That being N chooses to destroy the city to take out alpha and preserve the endless now.
M didn’t know about it, and would be appalled/saddened.
Gondor chooses to die a hero, than run away or become a villain.
N rewrites history in his head to cope.
N also tries to shield M from this pain he is causing, not knowing he is only bringing more pain.
All very clear, regardless of minor errors
Late to the party but i kind of leaning to the english localization here. and how the hell does the interpretation on 7:17 and 7:27 came on different from english and jp? i played on english and still came on the same conclusion as Lugal did, as Ghondor just let himself to be killed by N, N deluded as Ghondor at least not opposed to N's decision.
Like everyone said in the comments, players who actually cared about the story never interpreted it literally like what Lugal's did.
It is in my opinion that the english translation is better as it intensifies N's regret as Ghondor explained that M would tell N to let it go, as it means that not becoming moebius and pursue the eternal now to be with M by slaughthering the city, compared to the JP direct translation where it is just a simple matter of platonic choices that M think either N or Ghondor should take.
Very interesting. At first I thought the modifications were just minor because I thought it would mostly mean Ghondor was talking about what Mio would tell to him to do and not to N as the official translation suggests and I didn't get that the part where Ghondor says she would tell him "to let it go" means choosing Alpha' side. I thought the "to let it go" just meant she would tell him to run away and stay alive. Actually I still don't exactly get what indicates that Ghondor is referring to Alpha' side here but I guess the Japanese dialogue makes it clear. Or is it that the "to let it go" is actually a "to go" instead ? Regarding implying that's what N says Mio wants, I don't think it's that important anyway because if we beat Xenoblade 3, we perfectly already know that's surely not what M wanted because that's precisely what makes her so sad, he didn't understand what she really wanted. So we know from the beginning N doesn't know what M wants.
But in this perspective that Mio would choose Alpha' side or would tell to Ghondor to choose Alpha' side, I think it changes everything indeed. Everything and the next dialogue in Prison Island with N makes so much more sense now. That also explains that Matthew just found what Ghondor had truly chosen. That tells us that's the exact same path Matthew chooses to follow when he talks to Na'el and tells her their ennemies are all the people who want to prevent them from building the happy future their great grandparents dreamed about back then.
Is there another link to your discord server? The ones from your other vidoes dont seem to work.
Sure! :D Here's a new link: discord.gg/RcSrPvcTU4
Ahh the Nostalgia
Your interpretation is incredible, I never thought of it that way. I always interpreted N saying “you don’t need to know, the burden is mine alone to bear” as him willingly not telling Mio that Alpha was the reason he killed everyone, as he already went through too much by becoming Moebius. So essentially, N was willing to do the sacrifice himself in order to keep the world going even if it meant making himself suffer, and he obviously didn’t want M to suffer with that knowledge. Thing is however, that’s exactly what breaks him furthermore and what makes him oblivious to M’s desire to have him go back to the old Noah. And that’s what makes Noah tell Z in the base game that he gave those two an impossible choice, since because he fused with N, he has access to N’s memories at that point. Man I love this franchise so much.
I think you misinterpreted the translation, which most people read completely differently than you seemed to
Here is a long theory i had with this scene that some people didn't understand.
This does not underplay what Zed and N agree on for the endless now. We were only given partial information in Base 3 and in Future Redeemed, we get the rest of it. M was not meant to know about this at all. N was to protect the endless now by stopping Alpha by any means necessary. N still has attachment. He did not want to kill his own son, but he never met or knew Na'el. Like any one with growling family members, if you don't know em then they don't always matter to you. It sounds harsh but if you mom told you that Her sister's husband's second cousin from 7 states over passed away, and you never met em or knew em. She may as well told you she lost 50 bucks because it would emotionally impact you the same. You would just say, "that sucks" and move on. N doesn't have attachment to Na'el and will kill her to protect what he DOES know. M was suppose to be kept away from N during this entire mission, because M would try to interfere. When M shows up after all this, N would not tell her anything. He shoulders it and moves on, while M thinks N just murdered their son in cold blood.
Now while the game doesn't say that Zed has direct control over the consuls, I believe he does. This is why Mio was not involved with N moving forward until after the events of Future Redeemed. Zed kept her locked up and gave her free movement when Alpha was no longer a threat. Bear in mind, Mio could very well be what Alpha needed as much as Na'el was if not more so. Why present a nuke to someone who already had a rocket launcher. Keeping Mio away makes sense. Now did Mio ever find out the truth? No. Or else she would have told Noah the truth. She still had to play 5D chess with her other self to free herself from the endless now. Putting her soul, that Zed can manipulate, in a body designed to expire. All the while the free soul from Mio was able to have her immortal body. It wasn't the body Zed controls, but the soul. Noah and N would form a union with less convolution towards the end and achieve the same results. The real Noah and Mio would eventually be able to stop Zed only because Matthew was able to stop Alpha and trigger the reaction with in origin to allow Noah to separate and be re-introduced into the cycle and Mio being linked to both Matthew by blood and Noah through memory was also introduced back into the cycle.
Alpha who was the conscience of Alvis and was linked to Origin in ways was able to see that the future had hope. Not with Matthew or Na'el, but with Noah and Mio. Matthew might have had a feeling about this when he confronted N one last time. Having a feeling that his great grandfather would be able to bring his old self back and fight for what was right. Just not in the way Matthew expected.
I hope this clears up a few things and shows that Future Redeemed didn't ruin what N did to the city. We only knew it from Mio's perspective. We now see it through N's perspective. It hurts more now that we know N still had a heart and just chose to suffer in silence so M could exist. Since telling her the truth would probably destroy her more than just assuming N did this for their immortality.
Ok im done. Feel free to roast me and tell me i'm wrong now XD
I think the translation was fine, as you have to translate it not just in english, but also in a sense that would make sense to the western audience. The "corrected" translation, maybe although "more accurate", does not make sense to me and made more vague and weird to be honest. And the insertion of "Alpha" into the explanation made it more and more confusing. The ingame translation is fine, and made more sense.
I get that in the correct translation, it implies Ghondor thinks Mio would want him to go with Alpha and that he decides to reject that path, which could lead N to think he decided to side with Moebius instead. However... either way, from N's perspective, Ghondor just blows himself up while clutching his sword, instead of like, just letting him past so he can deal with Na'el/Alpha like he was going to. Surely that would appear to N that Ghondor was trying to stop him, no? In which case N really shouldn't have believed Ghondor was siding with him unless he was completely delusional. Which he was, but then that is a sufficient explanation for either translation.
While I think it makes a lot of sense, I can't think of Mio believing the best thing to do for Ghondor is leaving with Alpha, destroying all previous life, and nor why Ghondor would believe such a thing of his mother. I think that Mio would support the "third option" Ghondor chooses. May it be simply a misunderstanding by Ghondor? I don't really know
You are literally putting words in people's mouths. This whole video is just you taking your "interpretations" of what was "implied" and inserting them as the actual dialogue which is the biggest mistake a translator can make. Matthew's frustration with N's twisted narrative is adequately portrayed in the translation.
I feel like N's lines were interpreted rather well given the situation. With English contexts, "The burden is mine alone to bear" is a much stronger line in general.
However, I do agree that Ghondor's lines were mixed up, cascading to the confusion with what Matthew and N say in Prison Island. It also accidentally makes Ghondor seem like he knows that N is doing this for Mio, which imo doesn't make much sense.
i really dont think that at all, im pretty sure in either version of the script, our inclination as semiomnipotent audience members who know things ahead of time is gearing us to think about it in relation to fueling M and throwing us off, ghondor never directly implies he knows that at all. he brings up M on his own, saying "but what about mom", in a way as if he is bringing the concept of M INTO the picture, as if he doesnt know shes ALREADY involved as is.
I can double confirm the translation could be wrong since I played with the official Chinese sub. In the chinese sub Ghondar says Mio would support N's decision, which is again different than the English one's
When reading through the Japanese text, I do think your interpretation makes the most sense
Weirdly enough, I think I kind of prefer the mistranslation
OMG. So N siding with Matthew ang gang in the end actually makes much more sense now. N is choosing Ghondor's path by siding with Matthew. He chose his son's path. Oh gosh, N! 😭😭😭😭😭
This is why Xenoblade Chronicles should NEVER be played in Japanese..
2:25 who is running up to Na’el?
That's Ghondor, using his Ouroboros power to try and free Na'el but instead it splits A from Alpha
Interesting. This makes me wonder what else might have been less directly translated with the English script. I found myself feeling like there was a lot of exposition missing, a lot of loose ends, and mostly a lack of clear motivations for certain characters (esp. Alpha) in the DLC, so now I’m curious if all of these things are truly “missing” or just mistranslated.
Granted, I feel like my understanding of this particular scene coupling hasn’t changed too drastically with the original meaning vs. the translation… I always had the idea that N was simply rationalizing Ghondor’s death as “part of the plan” and “allowable” due to Ghondor’s self-sacrifice releasing A, thwarting Alpha, and destroying the other Citizens (just as he rationalizes being Moebius and pulling Mio into it as well, because time with Mio is the ONLY thing he cares about). And naturally, Matthew was full of upset (and beans), so anything N could have implied about him being in the right on this event or that he *wasn’t* solely responsible for Ghondor’s death was going to get pushback. However, I definitely would have never gotten the idea that Ghondor thought Mio would tell him to leave with Alpha unless I was told it, so thanks for sharing this.
Whenever a translation error in Xenoblade is pointed out there's always see people rushing to the comments to defend it.
See while that is true, this one just isn’t bad. Yeah it was changed slightly but the message was still very clear. LXGX just simply misinterpreted it themselves and made this video about it
@@ElectricRustyBanana Please read the end of the video. The video itself was a favour for Lugalbanda who wanted this video made for their article (these are their translation and explanations). But if you would like my opinion, I don't think it's a misinterpretation. I agree with Lugal's explanations and it improves the scene in my eyes and helps make the subsequent scene make more sense.
@@LXGK Ah, sorry then. I didn’t watch the whole thing through and just assumed this was your own thoughts.
@@ElectricRustyBanana Completely different.. the discussion between N and Matthew at prison island without being corrected has absolutely no meaning..
I had gotten the gist of the scene even with the awkward line of that N gets.
However, this retranslation/contextualization makes grampa Ghondor much more of a badass that what he already was.
Good stuff!
This is a problem with jrpgs, the subtitles are always synchronized with his dubbed voices. So when you play with the original dub and subtitles, there are always differences. If you understand a little of both languages, your brain will crash when interpreting lol
This is a common issue with localization. Lots of the original meaning in Japanese gets lost in translation.
🤓
wow thanks for the insightful remark you incredibly funny reddit man
localizers strike again