Hi OOBill. My first childhood trainset had this loco (1978). You have inspired me to get it running again, it has been used as a dummy double header since the bearings failed a few years ago. Bearings on order and motor cleaned ready for its new life. Even lightly detailed the body with dirty grills and overhead power transfers.
Love the older locos. Like a few here, I returned to the hobby just to try and run all the models I’d wanted but never had a a kid in the 70s. They may be crude in their details, but moth of them give the right impression.
Hi Bill. You can't have enough resurrected R751s in the world. You're work in this area should be recognised with a MBE. Seriously though, I very much enjoyed this in-depth & detailed look at how to bring one of these venerable locos back to life. Using the previous expertise you've shared I've managed to re-life my own (non-rear bogie pickup) very early Triang example, and now, along with my class 31 of a similar vintage, have that unmistakable growl of those motors once again ringing in my ears.
Every time you do one of these, it gives me more confidence that when the time comes, I will be able to reactivate mine, which has currently been in storage in various places for 45 years! An excellent video, thank you OOBill!
I agree with you about the worm drives. I once spent an entire weekend tweaking the position of them. I eventually discarded the original brass Hornby worms and fitted Delrin worms which were much quieter but wore out after a couple of years.
That is an interesting comment. How did the worm wheels (axle gears) wear against the plastic worms? Using the same material for worm and worm wheel suggests wear. These motor bogies need a lot of work; as 'new' I am yet to find one that does not 'hunt' at slow/starting speed. Have not had time to go past installing home made bearings in an effort to control tolerance and more positively secure gear position. It is the indeterminate 'floating' position of the gears that I suspect is behind the need to 'tweak' the 'worm drives'. My modification did not fully solve the problem, but then was not to a high enough standard. It all takes time. Mr Snooze successfully installed ball races: VERY interesting! I mentioned it was an 'interesting' comment; the whole bogie design is interesting. The upward travel of the worms and the setting of the rotor in the pole pieces is set by the rotor bearing(s) tops. The rotor bearings are squashed up into position by the breakage and distortion prone loop on each rotor bearing. The squashing pressure is applied by the screws against the cover plate, all pushing on the mag-hes magnets. Particularly on downward travel all this seems a bit indeterminate. From memory the downward travel of the axles is also limited by the base plate, most of the 'work' being done by the weight of the loco pressing the axles up via the wheels - there being a space between the base plate and the axle bottoms. There is little or no 'wearing pad' where a downward travelled axle sometimes bottoms onto the pad. The Germans would be appalled - as well have been the HD engineers. Also, if anyone has one of these, check the mag-hes magnets, in their sloppy mountings, are not rubbing against the wheel backs. I have not one of these in easy range, so please correct if I any of this is wrong. If I ever get back to modifying Triang I look forward to exploring Snooze's idea, and modifying the rear truck for full pickup. Probably with a lot of work these locos have huge potiential. The main thing that would hold back my further research or trying is the difficulty of rebuilding the axle bearings. The Peter's Spares solution to conversion to DKK sounds promising. But what about those of us born with a screw-driver in mouth! It would seem brush insulation is simple enough by treating the grounded brush much as Triang treat the ungrounded, and that with modern high current decoders the higher-but not high- current draw should be within limits (measure first). The X-04 and derivatives, as here, are of good enough quality for Guy Williams in is day to use on Pendon. And as then we can service and replace brushes - as Bill has shown. Has anyone tried this DKK conversion? Bill: video is a bit ambiguous as to whether you oiled the axle bearings?? I doubt the position, but some doubt oiling engineering plastics - hence I keep asking the question. Hopefully anyone who works on these motors or DCC's them will report back to the rest of us. The sole idea of these comments is to contribute and to share ideas. Hope someone benefits as I often do. Always exhaustively test under load for heat buildup. Oil, plastic, and old electric motors can be iffy with overheating. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for showing this, R751 is my favourite Triang loco, like yourself my father bought me one of these, probably in 1966 as it was green and the only year they were made in this finish, mine never ran that well so in the 80's I bought a com[plete power bogie, I now have a few and several Class 31 loco's with the same power bogie, and EM2 class 77, which is the earlier development of the same thing, they are a bit quirky and sometimes noisy but as you say can be made to run well, I looked at the coreless conversion but , I'm not sure I want to pay that much when you can still get fixable loco's without paying silly money.
Excellent timing, I’ve recently picked up a couple of these, one with the extra pick ups, and one without, neither run well, so this has been extremely helpful.
It strikes me that these & the Ringfield motor are more an electric motor kit with an attached loco. The prebuilt electric motors as showcased by Smoky Joe (& more recently Coreless) have been game changers. It surprises me that these seem to have persisted for so long, I remember my dad building balsawood boats with the Smoky Joe style back in the early 60's!
It's not too difficult to rewind armatures of this nature. You will need to know the wire diameter, number of turns per pole, and direction. All of which will be on the damaged armature. The termination of the wires will either be in a 'star' configuration or 'delta'. This is how the ends of the windings terminate with each other and the commutator. If memory serves, triang tended to use delta. Careful counting is the hardest task.
Enjoyed the repair as usual but would love to see you have a go at the rewind proses. Practice makes perfect as they say, and you would be better at it than most.
I must admit I still like the old 37 and a lot of its stable mates,you just have to remember they were made in a different time,when our expectations weren’t as high as they are now. I smile sometimes when I hear folk comment on the noise…..that’s what pay big money for now..!!…lots of noise.
It's probably heresy, but I still think the old Triang 37s have a certain aura of 37iness that the ultra detailed modern versions don't quite get. I'll get me coat.
In terms of overall proportions it’s a reasonably accurate model, just let down by the incorrect bogies and crude detail. There’s a few threads online of these being done up with etched windscreens and the like and they look fabulous, done a couple myself.
Beautiful- I’ve Found a Rekindled Interest of Triang Models after watching Oscar Paisleys Channel on Sunday Mornings - Great Job Wrangling that Spider 😅- Super Smooth Runner 👍🏻
Agree comepletly! The chunkiness of old models is rather appealing and from a distance they have more 'life' or something to them. In wargaming, people working in 28mm scale moved away from pure accruacy and towards what they call 'heroic scale' with deeper features in the models for this reason. They come to life. I do not model under a microscope and I think DCC is just decadent/money pit so no accusations of heresy from me.
Totally agree. Good models for their time and still hold up well today. If you take the time to do some detailing work it's worth it and if you repaint them it's a huge improvement. The coloured moulded plastic is ok but a coat of Railmatch makes it a new engine
It would be interesting to see how a Peter's spares brushless conversion runs against a 'stock' unit, as smoothly and quietly as you got that one running, the milli-amps it was drawing was a bit on the high side.
The old Hornby class 37's used Brush type 2 class 31 bogies in production. I worked on the full sized versions for over 40 years. Like this channel
Hi OOBill. My first childhood trainset had this loco (1978). You have inspired me to get it running again, it has been used as a dummy double header since the bearings failed a few years ago. Bearings on order and motor cleaned ready for its new life. Even lightly detailed the body with dirty grills and overhead power transfers.
Love the older locos. Like a few here, I returned to the hobby just to try and run all the models I’d wanted but never had a a kid in the 70s. They may be crude in their details, but moth of them give the right impression.
Great repair, comprehensively explained thank you Bill.
It's a joy to watch your videos on the repair then running on your tracks, thank you, Dalip
Hi Bill. You can't have enough resurrected R751s in the world. You're work in this area should be recognised with a MBE.
Seriously though, I very much enjoyed this in-depth & detailed look at how to bring one of these venerable locos back to life. Using the previous expertise you've shared I've managed to re-life my own (non-rear bogie pickup) very early Triang example, and now, along with my class 31 of a similar vintage, have that unmistakable growl of those motors once again ringing in my ears.
Every time you do one of these, it gives me more confidence that when the time comes, I will be able to reactivate mine, which has currently been in storage in various places for 45 years! An excellent video, thank you OOBill!
I agree with you about the worm drives. I once spent an entire weekend tweaking the position of them. I eventually discarded the original brass Hornby worms and fitted Delrin worms which were much quieter but wore out after a couple of years.
That is an interesting comment. How did the worm wheels (axle gears) wear against the plastic worms? Using the same material for worm and worm wheel suggests wear.
These motor bogies need a lot of work; as 'new' I am yet to find one that does not 'hunt' at slow/starting speed. Have not had time to go past installing home made bearings in an effort to control tolerance and more positively secure gear position. It is the indeterminate 'floating' position of the gears that I suspect is behind the need to 'tweak' the 'worm drives'. My modification did not fully solve the problem, but then was not to a high enough standard. It all takes time. Mr Snooze successfully installed ball races: VERY interesting!
I mentioned it was an 'interesting' comment; the whole bogie design is interesting. The upward travel of the worms and the setting of the rotor in the pole pieces is set by the rotor bearing(s) tops. The rotor bearings are squashed up into position by the breakage and distortion prone loop on each rotor bearing. The squashing pressure is applied by the screws against the cover plate, all pushing on the mag-hes magnets. Particularly on downward travel all this seems a bit indeterminate. From memory the downward travel of the axles is also limited by the base plate, most of the 'work' being done by the weight of the loco pressing the axles up via the wheels - there being a space between the base plate and the axle bottoms. There is little or no 'wearing pad' where a downward travelled axle sometimes bottoms onto the pad. The Germans would be appalled - as well have been the HD engineers. Also, if anyone has one of these, check the mag-hes magnets, in their sloppy mountings, are not rubbing against the wheel backs. I have not one of these in easy range, so please correct if I any of this is wrong. If I ever get back to modifying Triang I look forward to exploring Snooze's idea, and modifying the rear truck for full pickup.
Probably with a lot of work these locos have huge potiential. The main thing that would hold back my further research or trying is the difficulty of rebuilding the axle bearings.
The Peter's Spares solution to conversion to DKK sounds promising. But what about those of us born with a screw-driver in mouth! It would seem brush insulation is simple enough by treating the grounded brush much as Triang treat the ungrounded, and that with modern high current decoders the higher-but not high- current draw should be within limits (measure first). The X-04 and derivatives, as here, are of good enough quality for Guy Williams in is day to use on Pendon. And as then we can service and replace brushes - as Bill has shown. Has anyone tried this DKK conversion?
Bill: video is a bit ambiguous as to whether you oiled the axle bearings?? I doubt the position, but some doubt oiling engineering plastics - hence I keep asking the question.
Hopefully anyone who works on these motors or DCC's them will report back to the rest of us. The sole idea of these comments is to contribute and to share ideas. Hope someone benefits as I often do.
Always exhaustively test under load for heat buildup. Oil, plastic, and old electric motors can be iffy with overheating.
Thanks for sharing.
Running beautifully…really enjoyed this overhaul, thanks Bill!
Thanks for showing this, R751 is my favourite Triang loco, like yourself my father bought me one of these, probably in 1966 as it was green and the only year they were made in this finish, mine never ran that well so in the 80's I bought a com[plete power bogie, I now have a few and several Class 31 loco's with the same power bogie, and EM2 class 77, which is the earlier development of the same thing, they are a bit quirky and sometimes noisy but as you say can be made to run well, I looked at the coreless conversion but , I'm not sure I want to pay that much when you can still get fixable loco's without paying silly money.
Excellent timing, I’ve recently picked up a couple of these, one with the extra pick ups, and one without, neither run well, so this has been extremely helpful.
It strikes me that these & the Ringfield motor are more an electric motor kit with an attached loco. The prebuilt electric motors as showcased by Smoky Joe (& more recently Coreless) have been game changers. It surprises me that these seem to have persisted for so long, I remember my dad building balsawood boats with the Smoky Joe style back in the early 60's!
Hmm? Some of us think its a wonder the 'can' motors have persisted so long. Would appreciate reading of your experiences.
Enjoy.
Try Hornby Triang spares of Bristol who appear to do an armature exchange for the class 37 .. great video as always
I've had a few rewound x04 motors from them, excellent results
It's not too difficult to rewind armatures of this nature. You will need to know the wire diameter, number of turns per pole, and direction. All of which will be on the damaged armature. The termination of the wires will either be in a 'star' configuration or 'delta'. This is how the ends of the windings terminate with each other and the commutator. If memory serves, triang tended to use delta. Careful counting is the hardest task.
Enjoyed the repair as usual but would love to see you have a go at the rewind proses. Practice makes perfect as they say, and you would be better at it than most.
I must admit I still like the old 37 and a lot of its stable mates,you just have to remember they were made in a different time,when our expectations weren’t as high as they are now.
I smile sometimes when I hear folk comment on the noise…..that’s what pay big money for now..!!…lots of noise.
It's probably heresy, but I still think the old Triang 37s have a certain aura of 37iness that the ultra detailed modern versions don't quite get. I'll get me coat.
Much prefer them to the new ones. Easy to detail and maintain, plus they don't cost much.
In terms of overall proportions it’s a reasonably accurate model, just let down by the incorrect bogies and crude detail.
There’s a few threads online of these being done up with etched windscreens and the like and they look fabulous, done a couple myself.
Beautiful- I’ve Found a Rekindled Interest of Triang Models after watching Oscar Paisleys Channel on Sunday Mornings - Great Job Wrangling that Spider 😅- Super Smooth Runner 👍🏻
Agree comepletly! The chunkiness of old models is rather appealing and from a distance they have more 'life' or something to them. In wargaming, people working in 28mm scale moved away from pure accruacy and towards what they call 'heroic scale' with deeper features in the models for this reason. They come to life.
I do not model under a microscope and I think DCC is just decadent/money pit so no accusations of heresy from me.
Totally agree. Good models for their time and still hold up well today. If you take the time to do some detailing work it's worth it and if you repaint them it's a huge improvement. The coloured moulded plastic is ok but a coat of Railmatch makes it a new engine
Hi ooBill
Yet again another excellent repair video....!
Really great video Bill nice overhaul
Nice work i did one of these motors couple of days ago one of the more challenging motors
Hello Bill, we havn't seen your Airfix 4F for a while, I miss it on its shunting duties, driving old locos into the repair shed 🙂
Great job Bill
brilliant !
Hi Bill. Can I ask what cleaner you use in your sonic cleaner please ? Thanks.
@OOBill what is the tool called that you use to put the gears back on please?
It's actually an old mitre clamp used for clamping the corners of picture frames together.
Another good repair
very good I like
It would be interesting to see how a Peter's spares brushless conversion runs against a 'stock' unit, as smoothly and quietly as you got that one running, the milli-amps it was drawing was a bit on the high side.
Nice job 👍
class 37 running on class 31 bogies typical hornby of the 1960s
nice loco keep up the good vid on channel thanks lee
Worst hornby motor it ever fitted to the model making it noisy and a crap runner.😅
mine is ok, you need a proper overhaul. and they ran ok new from the box in 1963 !