A Case Against God as Punisher | The Sovereignty of God Looks Like Jesus!
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- Is there a case to make for God as a murderer or do we have the story wrong? Authors Jason Clark & Brent Lokker look at the account of Ananias and Sapphira in the book of Acts who mysteriously die after withholding a portion of money from a sale of their property. Does God punish every act of disobedience-even the death sentence-or is there a truer aspect of God’s nature we’re not seeing? The answer has significant implications for you and me and all of humanity, don’t you think?
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Love Brent and Jason's conversation,and how God is not in the counting business but is the restoration business ❤
So good!
Great point on John writing with more depth and clarity at an old age!
This is so good!! It’s refreshing to know that the Word is true. The best breakdown that gave blessed me
So glad it connected, thanks for sharing!
Wow! Another deeply revealing truth about the sustaining love of the Father. Nicely done gentleman! ❤
Thanks so much, Kate!
I would love to filter the story of Egypt’s sons dying by the angel of death - through this view
One of the stories I’m still
Chewing on trying to see where Jesus was in this
Wow wow wow, this is amazing.
Good stuff, gents! Jason’s chapter is worth the price of admission alone.
Thanks, brother - loved being a part of this book with you!
Wow, love it. What an amazing paradigm!
Always appreciate your encouragement, Bill!
Either we have Jesus as our Rabbi now or we have a Zeus-like god. It’s so important to now view even the Old Testament harsh scriptures through the Christ Lens. We must lose the retributive notions attributed to God for He IS LOVE!
Agreed! From Hebrews 1:3 in the Mirror Bible: "Jesus is the radiant and flawless expression of the person and intent of God. He mirrors God's character and exhibits his every attribute in human form. He is the voice of God announcing our redeemed innocence."
I agree with Jason and his perspective, I do have a question if I may. This is not to disagree but I can't wrap my head around if Peter got it wrong, how did Ananias and Sapphira die and by whose authority did this happen? Do we have an explanation for this or do we wait until Holy Spirit clarifies. Thanks
God's chastening / punishment is first and foremost "restoritive"... But there will come a day when "He will despise them as fantasies", when we will either "go down" with the ship of sin... or be found safe within the Ark of our Lord: On the Day when retributive justice is exercised. When we reap what we have sown.
I sincerely appreciate and honor your thoughts and I value the journey Jesus has you on. At this point in my journey, I see things differently than I did before. Since Jesus did not despise the woman at the well who had five husbands, the woman caught in adultery, the woman with the issue of blood, Peter who denied him three times, etc., and since he always and in every way accurately depicts the heart of our Father, then I have to conclude we may have missed the truth of our Father's nature until Jesus lived it out perfectly before us. What I am certain of is that our Father is just as pleased with you as he is with me and we're all on a journey led by his Spirit, so I bless you in that beautiful journey!
We really don’t know that they did die
I hear what you're saying and agree with so much of it, but I can't help but wonder about so many verses in the Bible that conflict with what you said about Jesus not punishing people for sin. Revelations 19 speaks of him coming back with a robe dipped in blood, and out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should STRIKE the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the FIERCENESS and WRATH of Almighty God.
You also suggested Jesus would never correlate punishment or death with sin, which is what he precisely does in Luke 13 when people ask him about the Tower of Siloam falling on 18 people. Certainly you wouldn't say our Lord got it wrong like Peter did concerning the death of Ananias & Sapphira? He clearly said, unless you repent, you will likewise perish, and that the people who asked him about that incident were no less culprits than those who died because of the accident.
Also, was Paul not hearing the Spirit's voice or heart when he wrote in 2 Thessalonians 1 that it is a RIGHTEOUS thing for God to REPAY those who trouble us with TRIBULATION?....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
In flaming FIRE taking VENGEANCE on those who do not know God, and on those WHO DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be PUNISHED with everlasting DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord. This is the same man who wrote in 2 Cor.5, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Yet just 5 chapters later he speaks of punishing disobedience. And we can't forget Romans 1 & 2, where he talks about God "storing up" a "DESERVED wrath" for the stubborn, disobedient, & unrepentant. Of course this applies to UNBELIEVERS, but Hebrews 12 speaks of God disciplining or scourging His CHILDREN also. So if we want to say all of these verses or passages are wrong bc Paul just wasn't being lead of the Spirit in these instances, that puts us on some pretty shaky ground. It also makes it convenient where we can make scripture fit our belief or interpretation by saying, "well, the author of this or that passage or verse got it wrong or wasn't being lead of the Spirit. What they REALLY meant to say was......."
Having said this, I DO agree there are verses where the author was giving THEIR view and not expressing God's heart (for instance when David said he HATED his enemies, or when Paul said he wished the Judaizers would be castrated for preaching a works-salvation gospel).
Anyhow, I'm definitely NOT throwing heretic stones at you because I believe a lot of what you're saying is true, and I say all this in a spirit of LOVE - I'm just trying to test what you're saying with the word. I understand our interpretation of the word can be wrong, but the passages I just brought up are hard to misinterpret.
There is too much in this story to come to a conclusion esp since we did not live at that time.
But I suspect because the old was passing away (70 ad) and the new was being formed (the body of christ "church") we need to understand the old first. Which was a religion based on works and the works of the flesh. Where as the new was based on Gods goodness and love, the love he had for us before the beginning of the world. the love he has for those who are poor, the love he has for those who are poor in spirit ( not highly educated) the love for sinners (not accepted by society) the love he has for peacemakers (those who are not ego driven).
So to me those two were trying to make a name for themselves. They sold an extra piece of land (good for them) they held back some and gave it as if it was all they received from the sale. Like was said, its no big deal you kept back some, that was your choice but the taking credit ( sounds of trumpets blasting, look at me) as if they gave a lot of money and it was such a sacrifice. Does this remind you of the widows giving in the temple?
Does it remind you of, though you are poor you are rich? Also you think you are rich but you are poor.
The words, to walk by the flesh is death, but to walk by the spirit is life, comes to mind here.
Also Paul said the old was an example for us for all the religion they had did not save them. We now had the full picture of Gods thoughts towards us as pertaining to the flesh and spirit. His love and severity.
The world loves the rich, the highly educated, etc but the revelation of God through Jesus showed Gods love is for all even those who are deemed unworthy by mans perspective (the flesh).
So having a lot of money does not make you more spiritual. Nor education, your home, your car etc. Its the love of god in you and only through Jesus can you understand it. After all he was rejected by the religious of his day. Murdered by them even.
Thanks for your thoughts! Since "the new was based on Gods goodness and love, the love he had for us before the beginning of the world," one could say it wasn't new at all, but rather our unchanging God revealed himself fully in Christ to the world the way he has always been. And God understands that we still can't quite grasp the goodness and purity of his love for us, but even that doesn't diminish his love one iota. What a tenderhearted Father we have!
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This is true, but we need to remember the kingdom of heaven. The separation of flesh and spirit. The flesh will not see God right?
From the time of Adam death reigned. Why? Because of men walking by the flesh.
We need to throw out a lot of old testament teachings and even the dispensational teachings because God does not change.The lamb slain before the foundation of the world comes into play here. But that does not mean God turns a blind eye to evil just because he is love. Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy. To bring faith back to our creator who told us to call him father. That is for those who see Jesus as the word made flesh. The one sent by the father to testify of him. Or even his right hand. From the time of Adam almost anyone could say they were of God. Pharaohs called themselves sons of God But when Jesus came he called all of them thieves and liars for in him was the spirit of God who the Jews rejected because they expected the messiah to destroy their enemies (gentiles). Yet Jesus told them they knew not his father because if they had known him they would have known Jesus also. We also have to remember Jesus was a nazarene who were of the (faith) of Abraham. Remembering that Abrahams works of the flesh was rejected by God (as an example) though Abraham was called righteous because he believed God was able to do as he promised. And Jesus being that promise made flesh that walked among us. Who took our place on the cross. Who was punished for our sins. Who called us into his divine nature. Who called us justified. Who gave us his righteousness (for the flesh has none of its own). Who calls us by his name (beloved child of God). Having been born again by his spirit walking by his spirit and not by the flesh.
Do you seen how we cannot brag? We did nothing to deserve his love and according to Jesus words the least in the kingdom are the first to him. For God so loved the world. Not for God so loved the jews. Or God so loved christians. Its not the label that defines you. Its your works, Whether you be working by the flesh or by his spirit. For the spirit knows the thoughts of the heart, right?
So when jesus came he came to those who professed they were of God. But he called many of them dead. Let the dead bury the dead.
Lets go back to that tree of good and evil. That belief of God being both good and evil. Yet Jesus said God is not mocked whatsoever a man sows that shall he reap. Sow to the flesh reap of the flesh (they have their reward). Sow to the spirit (reap of the spirit). Now is the axe laid to the root cutting down that tree. For a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. He is speaking of the father here for Jesus was his first fruit. When we also go back to the time of abraham we see God had spoken he did not want a temple made of hands. We see where he did not want animal sacrifices. He did not want the law written on stone but on mans hearts. We also see him tell the pharisees of that time he was the law, he is the I AM of the bible.
So no God is not the punisher, he is the rewarder of works of the flesh and of the spirit.
So if we be in Christ we were crucified with him, he having fulfilled the law for us (because we couldnt) For the law was our enemy (has made us free from the law of sin and death). But the living word has made us alive in him unto the living God and we are now called righteous (the flesh has no righteousness of its own) by his work in the flesh but we no longer know him by the flesh but by the spirit. All of it a gift. Not earned by anything we did or can do. His loving kindness and that boggles the religious minded. We cannot buy it, or earn it. Paul even said though I speak with tongues of angels and have all knowledge, if I have not love I am just an annoying sound. Paul even says that if a gentile does that which is right how did being a jew make them who were not doing right right with God? But Paul brings us back to the beginning where abraham was declared righteous by faith and not works for there was no law written to justify him by. There was no temple, nor levitical priesthood. Just Melchizedek who was a priest and a king called the prince of peace.
Right now I see what they call the church as not far off of what the Jews were doing. Believing they had an in with God because all their family were "christians" and they follow the 10 commandments. But Jesus said no man will be justified by the law.
At the times of judgement warnings were given to avoid it. See Gods goodness? The same was true when he came. Judgement was coming for their works. The white washed sepulchres are given as an example. But God wanted to intervene (o jerusalem how I wanted to put you under my wing (his mercy seat).
Yes God is love but he is also whole minded. Thats the holy spirit. He see's man in the spirit and not the flesh. We are to do the same. Not be hobnobbing with the world and the worlds ways.
So Paul warned us about taking advantage of Gods love by walking in the flesh doing what the flesh loves to do and saying we are believers . And by making the cross of no affect by trying to work our way into his grace. We see that even the working of miracles are not proof because he tells those who said lord lord look what we did in your name, casting out demons and building churches etc. But those who had given him water and clothes he told enter in even though they did not know they had done anything for him.
And what did Jesus say to the outcasts of religion? Whatever is done unto you is done unto me.
This is terribly misleading. Peter did know. The Bible does not lie. God does not change.
I prefer searching Christ ín the text, concluding "I do not know how, God knows" , than being fundamentalist, as I live ín a historical church. (Applying: I am ín Christ. If I am wrong there is God 's fire restoring, not for ever.)🔥💚🕊️