The Four Stages of Learning (and Why You Think You're Bad at Piano)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 12 мар 2018
- Happy 2023! 😃I'll be releasing some new videos this year, so be sure to subscribe to the channel for updates!
I also host monthly teaching webinars, which are free to join. You can sign up for the PianoTV mailing list to receive details on upcoming webinars here: pianotv.ck.page/49bf70e8eb
In addition to the approximately 500 free videos I've created here, and the free monthly webinars, I also offer step-by-step paid courses (Complete Piano Path) with weekly group feedback sessions, video tutorials, technique/sight reading/piece downloads, checklists, and more. These courses typically open once or twice per year, so hop on a waitlist if you're interested! www.pianotv.net/ptvschool/
Be sure to visit the website www.pianotv.net for any downloads associated with this video.
Happy practicing!
-Allysia
"Quit, don't quit. Noodles, don't noodles. You are too concerned with what was and what will be. There's a saying: Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called present." -Crazy Old Turtle
Sorry one liners are just silly
another quote by Turtle Man: "There is no such thing as bad news"
*Mouse Explains problem*
Turtle Man: "That's bad news"
Great motivation: Buy your own piano with your own money and feel guilty everday about not playing because of the investment you put into it.
Joshua Jones this is how I’ve learned the piano. I’m doing the same with guitar. And hopefully violin as well.
Buy a keyboard first
That’s me. Can’t let the money I spent on the piano go to waste.
@@josesaldivar655 I disagree. The better the instrument you buy the more you will want to play it and the more proud you will be that you play. Also it ruins your technique playing on undersized keyboards. I wasted many years not playing a real piano. It just isn't the same. I would actually give the opposite of this advice. Especially for instruments like recorder violin or guitar. If you start on something crappy you will sound bad and get discouraged. Now that I have a real piano and high quality recorder I always have motivation to play. If you have a cheap instrument you aren't going to feel like a real musician. Also learn piano method don't learn keyboard method. You will never take the left hand seriously and need to learn hands together both playing equally, chords arpeggios everything. Starting on keyboard with keyboard methodology destroyed everything.
@@ziomatthewbari3300 Great advice. I take it into account. Thanks. Wiil save for a real piano.
Unconscious incompetence sounds nice. I want to go back there.
Garry Burgess hahahaha nice!!
AKA Dunning Kruger!
Shout out to those at stage 1 and 2 :) keep going, never give up
🙏
Stage 2😔
I'm currently in stage 2 and it's one of the most frustrating things I've ever experienced, but you gave me some hope for the future!
Me too.
Same
Same
Great video - thank you. I am so glad I took the time to watch this. I am 56 years old and closing in on 2 years of piano. I have a great teacher, which is a huge help. It is just so good to see this and realize that the feelings/frustrations I have are part of the course. I initially bought a keyboard, but about 6 months in I bought a decent upright - not with the total blessing of my wonderful wife. That being said - it means I will never be able to quit - I am not allowed to after that purchase. Hopefully someday I will make it to the level four.
Are you still at it?
Thank you for the video. I'm also a piano teacher and I have a couple of students who could really use this. I think that what most people fail to realize is that you stay in stages 2-3 for many years. I remember having many self doubts in college playing piano, especially when I discovered I knew less than I thought I knew. I think that the underlying message here is to keep moving forward because the feeling of mastering something is well worth the work and frustration.
You had a baby? Aw that's awesome! Good luck with being a mother and all that, it's good to have you back
I am at stage two I'm really glad that I have a teacher because if I do get the rhythm off even if it's just a little he will show me how to correct it. He also shows me how to hit the keys to get the right effect and this is not something you can learn by watching RUclips videos!
This is one of the best channels of piano on youtube ever!!!
I've been learning Chopin's Ballade no. 1 in G minor for the past few months, and I'm on stage 2 for the first half of the piece, and I've been feeling absolutely terribly about it. I'm glad I watched this video, because this motivated me to keep going instead of giving up on this piece.
I really enjoy how she says "process" with an 'oh" instead of the usual "pr-ah-cess". :)
VOLK she does the same thing with the word "progress"
It's very common in the UK and to me, it makes more sense.
You really enjoy proper English then :)
It does make more sense! It's an "O" not "AH" haha.
I live in America, so this is unusual for me. But I admire it ))
This was a very interesting topic! I'm an adult beginner, now with just a little over a year's worth of steady practice and learning. And just reflecting on the past year, I can absolutely recognize this pattern and trend in my practice. I remember about a year ago when I was first learning the Bach minuet in G 116 (the one with the arpeggios), and I was completely struggling with hand independence (as in, they weren't!) and I was having trouble even playing the left hand part, due to a total lack of muscle control and coordination in my left hand. But now I can play that whole piece without even having to use my conscious mind. I can just play it (and chew gum at the same time). I went through a similar arc with Tchaikovsky's Morning Prayer and Schumann's Of Strange Lands. Particularly that last piece, it took me weeks just to be able to digest the notes. I had to draw lines on the music to separate out the melody as well as label the chords for each half measure of the piece. Now, as with the minuet, I can just play it (not quite at the chewing gum stage though ;-).
I am now working actively on improving my sight reading. I found that I could memorize a piece of music and play it back from memory, but if I tried to play it as I read along, it was a total disaster. Every time I looked down to reposition my hands or whatever, I would lose my place in the music. When I realized this, it was definitely the beginning of my "conscious incompetence" phase in your description, at least in regard to sight reading. Now I spend time every day doing a few sight reading exercises. I am using the book "Progressive Sight Reading Exercises for Piano" by Hannah Smith. It is slowly starting to improve. I am trying to actively not look at my hands when I do this.
I am just so mad at myself for not learning how to play piano when I was a youngling. I enjoy it so much now. I just wish I was better at it! Maybe in a few more years ;-)
Charles Laine you’re probably few months ahead of me but I’m a adult beginner as well over a year now. I also get annoyed at my self for not learning piano during my teens or even earlier. The struggle is real!! It’s worth it. Keep it up.
I searched those pieces you mentioned, I'm going to try to learn them. Please recommend more!
Yaar yeh chewgum ka kya suspense hai... How it can be benchmark for something? I can even fart while playing that doesn't mean I am competent. Does it? 😀
you're the best. That's EXACTLY what I went through! So on time and to the point. Thanks, Allysia!
Lots of practice
Thanks.
So practical. Very helpful. Thank you.
What an excellent video! This is very helpful. Thank you.
This was an excellent and insightful video, very helpful. I am so grateful for you, please keep it up
Fantastic video! Very helpful!
In Stage 3...
You are such an inspiration 😊
This was really helpful!
This was really really helpful teacher
You are really great...I wish you the best. I am learning a lot with you. You must be an awesome teacher and I am sure a great mom.
Thanks for the video. Very informative. Love your content :)))
I love your channel. Congrats on the baby (I know this is a year later). This video like all the ones of yours I've seen, is so informative, fun, and motivating. I'm somewhere between 1 and 1.5 on the incompetence scale!
I'm glad to have you back.
Your videos inspire me to go on, thank you. Haven't given up for like 7 months now. I'll get there.
In Stage 4, I think what you're describing is the hands mastering the movements of the piece. But in my opinion your competence should always be conscious. The mind shouldn't be on autopilot, but instead very present in the moment concentrating on intonation, interpretation and the overall sound tonality.
As always, great insights and a huge relief to those of us obliged to struggle along with a teacher. Today, I really needed to hear about how to get from stage three to four. Big hope, big thanks!
Excellent vid!
Thanks!
I think I'm close to stage 3. Definitely going to start looking into piano teachers.
Great video, very intersting stuff to know. As an adult beginer, it realy help to take a step back on our piano journey as you say.
Thank you (from France) for sharing !
I’m so grateful for this video! I am neck deep in Stage 2, and I get very overwhelmed by the enormous amount I don’t know. Makes me feel so much better to know that it’s a normal phase in the lengthy learning process!
Allysia your music content is the best! I haven't seen someone with this quality in content. You're super awesome!
Love the video
Welcome back Allysia ❤
Good work, it’s nice to see frustration taken head on. Frustration can be so destructive and hard to understand but addressing it this way surely helps. Learning piano is a study of the learning process as well as the skill itself. Even the slightest progress and self discovery can be immensely rewarding. Your presentation is nicely done. Thanks!
1 thing that isn't mentioned a lot is the cost of taking music lessons (private teacher or group sessions). If a person is not progressing, the cost can add up. At some point, you have to decide if you simply don't have the talent for music and quit.
On the other hand, learning a piece of music isn't hit and miss. Recently someone posted a message on social media about learning pieces from recordings. Nowadays there are recordings of just about any piece a student would come across. Suppose you're playing "Minuet in G" from the Notebook of Anna M, you can find dozens of videos from students & teachers. When going on vacation, you can research a place beforehand and know what are the main attractions instead of just getting there and decide what to do after. Learning based on video & sound recordings is like a roadmap to follow (tempo, dynamics, phrasing, etc).
Hi I just started again. I haven't been at the piano for more than 20 years. I love the way you teach.
This video is fantastic. Well done! Really well made. Enjoyed your talking and the common features of each stage. I think I’m in between stage two and three. I remember thinking I was good then I realised WOW there is so much to learn. Now I feel I am a lot more aware of what needs work and fortunately, I have a lot of time to practice so I am enjoying the fruits of my more mindful practice Happy to see these feelings validated in this video :)
This is so, so helpful. I found this video because I am learning to dance, not play piano, but I see so many parallels here. This definitely eases my frustration and gives me hope. Excellent explanation!
Hi allysia congratulations on your baby. Regarding piano.The more you learn the more there is to learn. I’ve had lessons for 6 months as I’m in mid 50’s need to be tough on practise and determined to continue. Thanks for this video your insight is always helpful. Jim carter UK
one of the best if not the best explanations of the 4 levels of learning
Welcome back to pianoTV real time. You should link this channel to your vlog channel on your channel page. Wondering if you could do a video on improving the physical and mental aspects of playing music such as hand eye feet coordination, endurance stamina and attention span for playing long periods at a time, maturity for understanding context of pieces, knowing the balance between different skills and listening for it, etc. Although I've been learning and playing music for a long time, still have trouble going beyond just knowing music.
This is very helpful! I can see I'm on level 3 on a few things, level 2 on some and 1 in probably many
Thank you
Holy crap, thank you. I have always wanted to learn piano, it speaks to me. I know that sounds cliche but I am so drawn to it. But I am definitely in the aware of your mistakes stage and it made me shelf it for a bit. I am self taught which I know is not the best but I dont have a schedule that allows me to take lessons yet. And I'm too impatient to wait for that time frame. Annnny way. It's so nice to know that everyone goes through it, and that its normal. Gives me hope that I will get passed this bump if I dont quit. Just lit a fire under my bum! Thank you!!!!
I genuinely like how you always seem to be in high spirits. If I was half as positive as you life would be a whole lot better.
Wow, congrats on the new baby!
This is a perfect video for me
Great video. I try to explain this to people all the time and their eyes glaze over. But this literally applies to ALL of human learning across the board. I usually use the example of driving a car because most people have that experience. The amount of information you process while driving is pretty astounding. And yet it's all largely on autopilot. That is, AFTER you've gone through the nerve racking and often embarrassing experience of driver's ed 😛. Eventually you get to that point where it's automatic.
Pow right on the head of the proverbial nail!
oh wow, i noticed that, every piece or songs, i go through, they are always 'individually staged' ( each piece/song is the four stages )
thank you, ive been motivated play and practice ✨✨🤸🙌
I think I am stage 2. I know there is an ocean of knowledge I dont know. Just learning how to swim right now.
HI, Welcome back, and thanks for your videos again. - Darthpanda
That helped my piano Czerny significantly!
Hi Alyssia. I'm now at stage 3 and I was stuck at stage 2 for so long lol. I'm now seeing progress and I can't wait to get on Stage 4. Thanks for giving me hope through this video haahhaha.
Honestly, there was so much doubt, hesitation, and self-esteem issues that came along with stage 2. For those who are stuck at this stage, keep going. It's not impossible. :)
This video was very helpful :) I think I'm a late stage 2/early stage 3 that has plateaued, and probably need a teacher and targeted regimented practice to advance to more standard repertoire.
Thx ...Great psychology 😇😉😎
Nice and helpful video! :)
Oh, I cannot thank you enough for this. Thank you, thank you! I needed this so much to help me go on. At first, I thought I was in stage 2, but now learned I'm stage 3-isssh. So in a sense, it's good news! Like yesterday, I was playing the Minuet And Trio of Mozart's Vienese Sonatina for my teacher and I bombed my performance just because my cat was ... passing by. I was like 'ARRRGGH!!!, I swear I was good, I was not perfect, but I was good!' And I played that damn piece like, one MILLION times. After practicing an hour a day, sometimes more, for a year and a half, I was just telling myself 'Why can't I be better than this! Why can't I play just ONE damn piece flawlessly!!!'. Ok, so I'm normal. So, thank you, Alysia.
I really enjoyed this. I’m 66 and started piano lessons about 4 years ago. I’ve been entrenched in stage 2 for quite a while, and it can be very frustrating. My teacher encourages me to enjoy the journey, which I really do, however it can be discouraging at times. I think as adult learners we want to be perfect, which, of course, will never happen. But I think stage 2 is probably the longest stage and the most difficult to move on from. Maybe I’m close to transitioning from maybe stage 2a, to stage 2b…I don’t know. Just looking forward to stage 3😊.
Great video.
I love the Pencils in the Cup!
Congrats on the baby! :D
Stage 4 feels like an unobtainable goal for me. I'm prone to compare myself to others, which means I'm never going to feel like I've mastered anything. I've been playing for a year and a half, and it boggles my mind when I see people perform incredibly difficult pieces. It just doesn't feel like the current pace I'm at will net me similar results even after 20+ years. Haha guess this means I'm at stage 2 :p
That's a really good perspective to have. It's kind of funny to think that when I first started playing piano, my only goal was to learn some chords and play pop songs. The me from 2 years ago would have been more than content with having my current skill level, yet here I am wishing I could play like Kyle Landry or Animenz haha. Maybe 10 years from now I'll be playing like them, wishing I could play like Horowitz (never, ever gonna happen lol). I guess I need to take the time to appreciate how far I've come every now and then :)
I've been playing for about 3 years about 1.5 to 2.5 hours a day and it's strange the things you will start to notice. I played a part of Feux d'Artifice by Debussy the other day for the first time. It has sweeping cross over scales done with both hands that then have to the be done with the left hand in order for the right hand to go on its own way. It requires you to cross over with the thumb on g flat. I just did it. All I could think was that a year and a half ago it would have driven me nuts and no mater how much I would have practiced it wouldn't have worked. I'm not as good as I wanted to be after 3 years but I'm still very happy with where I am because I know now what it takes to get where I am and the only way to know that is to do it.
65 - 1.5 years in. I like to take a lead sheet and rewrite the baseline notation with inversions, 7ths, open 7ths, 9ths, etc., to attempt to optimize hand movement - look and sound more professional, etc.
Then add proper basic primary notes to the existing melody.
Together, this helps me quite a bit on demonstrating the theory side and I find it enjoyable - take something kind of basic-medium and make it sound and look a whole lot better - which keeps me practicing...which is good...
Had a fantastic 1st teacher for several months - however, he hit on me - like piano isn't difficult enough to have this kind of nonsense.
Oh, and I'm a guy - actually, as I explained it to him, THE wrong guy..LOL.
Should have started when I was 50...oh well...never stopping...
'a feeling of being overwhelmed' is right!
I would love a printout of this information to read and show my students!
I think im at stage 2. I finally got some hand independence down, but I cant independently control the dynamics in different hands that well.
So now im working on piano in one hand, Forte in the other, and the same with staccato and legato. Learning to play different notes in each hand was just the beginning lol!
You're very pleasant, and I like your videos. I am 36 and I just started playing the piano. I just bought less than a month ago, but I have already put in a good 80 hours:) One of my issues is setting up a lesson plan for myself. I created one, but i'm not sure if it is the right way. I'll end up signing up to the courses eventually.
It's goes something like this:
Major Scales,
Chords,
Read music,
Practice Songs.
I'm sure there are some clever exercises and what have you that I should put in there. I'm just not sure what. Anyone feel free to chime in for things you found useful to add to your own lesson plans, and what your current experience level is. All information is welcomed.
Great video, and encouraging. Thank you. I’m definitely in stage 2 (30 yrs old and taking lessons). I understand the THEORY behind it, but working that out through my fingers is a bit harder! Currently I can play in C and G and maybe F major, but beyond that it’s hard for me. I try not to think of all the keys, major and minor, and just focus on where I am and try to embrace the process. It will come in time. I have a feeling stage 2 will last a while, but that’s ok.
Your videos help me so much more than you know and I often come here when I’m having trouble understanding the theory part of it. You’re a great help and I appreciate you so much.
Saare apne bhai bandh hi najar aa rahe yahan. 😂
hair on fleek
So grateful for your videos! I take weekly piano lessons, but because we are necessary focused on the pieces and the scales, we don't really to get into the adult learner mindset issues. Your videos help keep me on track between lessons, keep focused and understand this is a long game! I'm at the conscious incompetence phase! 😆As a professional visual artist and RUclipsr myself who teaches art and mindset for visual arts, I know all these things already! But it helps SO much to hear them from you. It also helps that my husband has played music for 50 years and he is SO ENCOURAGING and excited that I'm learning. How lucky am I to have so much support for my fledgling musical aspirations? Many thanks!!
p.s. I also really appreciate how much time and effort goes into making these videos. Brava!
That's amazing that your husband is so encouraging! Turns out my brother knows a whole lot more about music than I imagined, and he's teaching me music theory since we are stuck home during this pandemic.
@@patronusmusic That's awesome. Since I can't take piano lesson at the moment, I'm trying to find resources to learn more theory. I found this web site utheory.com that is kind of fun for me since it's not a book and more interactive.
@@MicheleTheberge Wow!! What a great resource! Thank you so much for sharing with me. 💖
First of all, thank you so much for this amazing video! I feel that I pretty much match the criteria of level 3. My teacher keeps asking me to have better focus and concentrate more on what I'm playing. Problem is I've been diagnosed with ADHD; what should people like me do? Should the learning process remain the same for us, or do we require a different form of practice?!
I think everyone from ADD community would appreciate it a lot if you can do a 'special needs' video of some sort :D for people who can't focus on the process of practicing, in itself, that easily! (myself included)
Lots of love and sincere appreciations beforehand!
Can you do a musical analysis of Liebesleid Kreisler/Rachmaninov?
Musical instruments take a lot of time.it takes 10 months to have a baby.it takes about 10000 hours of practise to play fluent piano or any other instrument.
Please plan for marathon.
Not for a musical sprint.
If one wants for a musical sprint then one can try to play only the black notes or pentatonic scale.
Moreover it is joyful to play music.
Enjoy the 10 years of playing
10 months
10 years
I hope one gets at the truth of playing a musical instrument.
I have been plain for 5 years
Another 5 years to go
Thanks allysia for your inspiration.
allicia thx for the vids and always good day viewing ure lessons :) greethings from the netherlands sander keijzer......aka digital symbols thank u!
ooh yeah and thx for taking time for ure students :)
Unconcious competence = Ultra Instinct
This is very helpful. Do you have a webinar on creating a lesson plan structure for our practice sessions out how to fit everything in the RCM syllabus for the grade level that I am focussing on within 15 minutes or even half an hour. Can you kind of layout an approximate time line and elements of a good practice session? Do you have a webinar on that?
Knowing what you struggle with is great because you can fix your mistakes easily. Instead of wanting to quit, focus on what you struggle with! It's a huge advantage in that sense, your solutions are only a bit of practice away. It's like the answer is right in front of you, all you have to do is work on it. You have the answer already.
I feel so much in phase 2 right now!
But in fact, I think that we are always in the 4 stages at once (except maybe at the very beggining). Like, at this point, I can read music without much thinking, so I'm in phase 4 (or phase 3 for more difficult pieces, with lots of chords) at reading. There is some other things I can do, but I have to think of it, like not lifting my fingers to much. There are others things I know I do wrong without knowing how to do correctly, like playing without being tense. And there are things I don't know I do wrong until my teacher points them out.
When I'll get better, all those things will go up a phase, then my teacher will point some new things to work on, that I will bring from phase 1, to phase 2, then 3, ...
It's been 26 months I play the piano now (I did play other instruments in the past, so I knew how to read music and stuff) and I'm at a point where I really do feel overwhelmed by the number of things I don't know how to fix, or that I know how to fix, but I need so much to THINK about it that I can't concentrate on everything at once! And yeah, that's hard for self esteem!
I have a trick, though, to overcome one of the element you mention : the fact that you have the impression to get worse. Record yourself! I have often that feeling! Then I listen to a recording from 3 months ago and realize I did progress!
Yeah. I started playing piano when I was three, so I barely had the power to climb up to the piano bench. I had a little step stool to help me get up.😂
I guess I'm level 3, then. I can learn difficult pieces, but (depending on how difficult they are, specifically) it takes me anywhere from 2 to 6 weeks to learn them (and another 5 days to a week to play them from memory). Part of this reason is that I'm an average sight-reader, and can only perfectly (or almost perfectly) play through a piece at first sight if it's at a lower-intermediate level; however, I ain't touching a piano concerto or some of Liszt's hardest solo pieces lol.
i was about to call piano teacher and say that i have zero talent and i should quit but may i should wait for few more weeks..
What a helpful analysis of the stages of piano progress. After 17 months of piano practice I'm firmly in stage two, knocking on the door of stage 3. But now I'm actually considering finding a piano teacher, although I'm very worried about being held accountable for my progress and having my perceived lack of talent exposed. I'm actually afraid of a piano teacher! Is this normal?
i love u so much
So interesting! My only question: when you have strong perfectionist tendencies, how do you realistically evaluate yourself? I could be playing something well (and my teacher says I am) but because I compare myself to the professional performances I listen to as I'm learning the piece, what I'm doing never sounds good enough - but theoretically you can still be playing well even if not at the professional level, but I don't know what that sounds like. Maybe the answer is just to listen to my teacher when she says I am doing well! :)
I believe I'm somewhere between every stage, for each skill. LOL
All the struggle at the same time but I'm too stubborn to quit! ;-)
I'm so in stage 2 right now. It really does feel like I'm getting much worse
I am at level 1. Self taught (for now, hopefully someday I'll have a teacher). I don't know what I am doing and I don't have any idea how to effectively practice the rhythm of the pieces I am playing :/
(Plus memorisation, sight reading and techniques... basically everything lol, but rhythm is the one i understand the least)
3:41 Conscious Incompetence - I think I'm no good at piano ... am stuck between stage 2 and stage 3. Oh well, so much for those lofty ambitions of being a jazz pianist, ha
Sadly it seems like the amount of years I have left to live would never be enough to get really good at piano.... 😞
I feel like: I need to live my life all over again and get started tinkering on the piano when I am like 2 or 3 years old, haha!
i'm on stage 3 right now lmao. right now i'm trying to learn debussy's clair de lune but it's getting on my nerves. i'll get there though, i went through the same thing with chopin's op9no2. took me months but finally did it.
Me in Italian stage 4: super relaxed because I know I am really good and almost never make mistakes. I think in Italian and it comes just as natural as English.
Piano stuck on stage 3 for many years: well I am good but everyone else is so much better and I suck under pressure
Recorder stage 1: super relaxed and carefree because I know I suck but so does everyone after only one year.
Intermediate is definitely the hardest. Being a beginner or advanced is so much fun. Being in the middle is super frustrating.
My issue is mainly putting the two hands together with a piece. I can do it when say, the left hand is basic and lines up with the beats but anything more complex and my attention is diverted to whichever hand is struggling and the other hand just forgets what it was doing and goes mad lol. I also think I am a little too ambitious regarding the pieces I try to learn but meh, they're more interesting and not clichéd. I am currently in the process of learning to sight read now, I can kinda do an educated guess - I'm not far off. But the hand thing is annoying because learning slowly is the same lol
can you do an analysis about Beethoven's Hammerklavier?
Im on stage 3. Learning durnitz sonata, which I find easier than the sonata k545
Piano takes years. Like more than 10 of them.
I’m somewhere between 3 & 4