I would put all my money on Devon's Jenga game, which he is also perched on top with his cognitive dissonance pieces below, will topple before Lambda even feels a slight wobble of his.
Fair play to you on this @Lambda. You held your ground pretty well. As a Christian beginner and a technical guy myself I find these kinds of conversations very helpful in making sense of my own thought processes. I'd only add that I feel that the instinct or a gut feeling you both mention as well as the concept of objective morality is a proof enough for me of the holy spirit in us.
so you had a feeling, and that proved an all encompassing worldview for you ? how bout that... "i feel" let me stop you right there, you are likely wrong and since you started that way.... you likely know you are wrong.
@martinade9195 Great to hear! Make sure you also sub to Lambda Bible Studies! I really don't believe there are any atheist arguments that can shake me any more. After a certain point you've heard them all. There are some arguments that are tricky, particularly to do with the problem of evil. However, there are much more difficult problems with the atheist position. I don't think of debates as particularly useful but sometimes a slightly more combative conversation like this one can be fun
Man I wonder what Devon’s reaction is to an individual like me would be when he hears I was an engineering student who used to be a very staunch atheist that converted to Christianity as a rational, logical, and at least averagely intelligent adult.
"because his pride can’t stand the taste of humble pie" reminds me of when Devon said donald trump would definitely lose the presidential election to hilary or when mms guru said francis ngannou fumbled the bag by leaving the ufc
@@Raygun9000 same as everybody else. he thinks it. thats the only time its ever real... if you actually lived in the world as if the supernatural existed and anything could happen at any time you just wouldnt be able to interact with the world without disastrous outcomes. thats why atheists and christians both live their physical lives as if there is no supernatural, its because we dont have a choice. the only time there is a difference is when you ask the christian about his thoughts. when its real outside of somebodies mind we can revisit the debate, until then its settled. you are either an atheist, or a liar.
@@Raygun9000 if you are looking for an experience or to actually convince yourself you are barking up the wrong tree. these guys just SAY that happened to them, it didnt actually happen. and thats basically christianity in a nutshell. lot of saying things, lot of thinking things, lot of feeling things, but nothing actually happening though. soon though im sure, right christians?
The atheist vs thiest debate was very old school but certainly enjoyable. I was an athiest during my childhood/early adolescence which was at the height of the Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens popularity but I've slowly drifted towards the thiest side although I struggle greatly with faith and would simply classify myself as spiritual/pagan. One interesting thing I would say is that athiests often act smug/superior in these debates with their so-called superior rationality until of course it's pointed out that religion/belief in Gods/God was an evolutionary survival mechanism that enabled mankind's intellect to grow whilst giving us the tools to cling on in the face of extreme suffering and cruelty. If not for this mechanism, mankind would have gone extinct. Therefore of the two, Luke is a normal and healthy individual whereas Devon is not. The moment it's pointed out that atheists are not only in the minority but also abnormal do you see their inherent smugness turn to irritation and rage.
This is one of the best Christian / Atheist discussions I’ve ever seen. Also I was about to write an “I’m not a Christian but…” comment but then I felt I was being dishonest in some way. Very strange. Anyway keep up the good work Luke, amazing content.
Devon’s massive ego remains both my most and least favourite thing about him. I admire it in the sense that he’s so disagreeable, and will cut against the grain on topics even when it’s unpopular. He is truly his own man in that regard. He always thinks for himself, and that requires a kind of stubborn courage I have to respect. On the other hand, it also makes him kind of boring. He can’t revise his worldview on any deep or serious level because his pride can’t stand the taste of humble pie for long enough to admit he was wrong, or that the people he’s been mocking for so long might have had a point. The consequence of all of this is that his entire worldview comes off as stale and developmentally stunted. He can’t grow because he lacks the humility to learn. I’m listening to this, and a lot of his takes feel like something that’s been reheated in the microwave after been frozen in a block of ice since the late 2000’s. Like when the algorithm occasionally feeds me a decade plus year old DarkMatter2525 video.
"because his pride can’t stand the taste of humble pie" reminds me of when Devon said donald trump would definitely lose the presidential election to hilary or when mms guru said francis ngannou fumbled the bag by leaving the ufc
@@ItsameAlex Weird place to find another Guru watcher 😂 but to his credit he retracted that whole thing. I don't understand the comparison tbh, MMA Guru is the most open to criticism of anyone I've ever seen online, he almost never bans people from his chat no matter what insults they call him whereas AIU will ban people for the most minor disagreement. Also Guru often admits when he's wrong and doesn't even really take himself seriously in the first place. AIU is the polar opposite in just about every way. Weird comparison.
@@ItsameAlex he was right about Helwani not having Ngannou's best interests at heart encouraging him, even if it did work out miraculously it wasn't right for people to encourage it out of hatred for the ufc. I think that was Guru's point.
@@redacted9723 guru and aiu have almost the same exact thinking style, but they're like parallel universe versions of each other, so they have some interesting parallel universe differences: aiu always says foreign names wrong, mma guru always says them correctly, aiu "i was always cool, you guys are nerds", guru says "I guess twitter is filled with cool dudes with amazing lives. I'm a nerd". And there are more. But both of them are based on race and have the same thinking style regarding the topic.
He's too stupid for that. He forces YT to delete his channels, because he always talks himself into a rage. He just doesn't get it. He loves that victim roll "Boohoo, YT deletes me, cause I say the truth". No, they delete his channels because of literal hate-speech.
Glad you got your audio sorted, it would have been horrible to have to listen to this guy at 10/10 volume and Luke at 2/10. Congrats on being consistently polite & rational as he ridicules you & your worldview with 2010-era fedorarguments.
Athiesm Is Unstoppable: "I have no prior commitments or biases in favour of athiesm, in fact, I don't want it to be true!" How am I supposed to believe you aren't deluding me when you are actively in the process of deluding yourself? Of course every athiest believes they have the one privileged, objective, view from nowhere argument, demanding that in order for something to be true, they personally must be convinced of it, as if they are the one sole perfectly rational being in the universe.
Devon totally red pilled me on American joggers. His RUclips channel would have been huge if it was a free speech platform. He will always be a legend in my eyes.
around 1:30:40 Sam Harris would definitely disagree with Devon Tracey there, as he believes in objective moral values. He wrote a whole book about it called "The Moral Landscape".
At around 1:14:40 When Devon says "Do you acknowledge that you have a vested interest in this" it's kind of like Conor Mcgregor predicting he'll ko Jose Aldo in the first round and Devon saying "Do you acknowledge you have a vested interest in that being true", just because he wants it to be true doesn't mean it's not true.
Dude are you actually a female in a Lambda chat quoting mma stuff and referencing MMA Guru? I have a wife and kid but any single lads in here need to get to work 😂
@redacted9723 I suspect it's a bot. It floods the comments, copy/pastes and replies to itself. Very weird if that's a human. I could be wrong because some humans are very weird.
lol twitter was not a noble effort, the word count was limited to the level that would maximally induce rage and thus make people stay longer on the platform. Thankfully the word count has increased since then.
Acknowledges that the bibles consists of multiple books, but then says that the claims are unbelievable because "it's just one book" confirming it. Would adding a fifth testament help, cause four is somehow not enough? I'm pretty sure he'd say "five is just one too short, give me a sixth one", if he was shown a fifth testament. I'm not a Christian, but Devon Tracey's argumentation is based on multiple of those dishonest tricks. Just another example: He says it's natural to believe in atheism, but when Lambda says that kids tend to believe in god and that shows how natural the tendency is, then suddenly the argument is "but they are stupid and don't count". I bet if a "less intelligent" group of people believed more in it, Tracey would say that they do it, cause they are stupid. If the group was more intelligent, then he'd say that they only do it, because they are good at making up arguments that serve them. High levels of hypocrisy / sophistry / dishonesty.
Also Tracey says that all the eye witness accounts of Jesus resurrection would not be admissible in court and that eye witnesses don't count. What would he find believable in that scenario? An ancient Roman security cam footage from ancient times, before electricity?
you dont think he made a pretty good point by saying that he wishes it was true, its just not. and if we can just be honest for a minute? not believing in something ive never seen or experienced is a lot easier than believing in something ive never seen or experienced. so if we are fishing for bias we are going to fish in the pond where the guy seems to be going above and beyond ALL of our lived experience to believe something. plus atheism (admitting there is no god) is more popular now but it wasnt before. almost everybody over the age of 30 would have been told as a child that god is real, i know i certainly was. so we know you have a bias because we had the same one, we just got over it because saying you believe in resurrection and eternal life is HARD for an honest person.
@suzukisixk7 I wasn't raised as a Christian, so I don't know how that argument applies. And if you do want to be honest then let's examine that you probably do believe in things that you have never seen or interacted with. Do you believe in the big bang? Or Abiogenesis (the theory that life generated itself from rocks and minerals)? Or that Ghengis Khan ever existed? Or that Socrates and Aristotle were real people? How are those claims and theories any more or less valid than the hypothesis of God's existence? Or is it that your personal bias makes some claims and hypothesis more palatable than others?
@suzukisixk7 I wasn't raised as a believer, so I don't know how that argument applies. But I would imagine that anyone raised in a family that did believe has as much chance of developing a positive or negative bias towards it based on how it affected their lives. If you do want to be honest, then can we examine that you do probably believe things that you have never seen or experienced? Big bang? Abiogenesis? Did Ghengis Khan exist? Are Socrates or Aristotle real people? Other than bias and preferences, what's makes such claims or theories more valid than the hypothesis of God's existence?
@@thetyrantofsyracuse they covered this in the video... "I have a T-shirt in my room" and "a thinking entity created humans" are two different claims. Not believing in something I haven't seen and not believing in something nobody has seen are also not the same thing. So yes I think ghengis Khan was a real person and fred Flintstone was not, despite hearing about both of them. Understand?
@@thetyrantofsyracuse another example used in the video was Tesco selling an egg right? Maybe you can answer back to me, when you guys do these examples (cause this is pretty common) why do you always use such mundane objects? Is testco selling one egg? That's possible with what we know about the world so sure I can believe that. Is testco selling one dragon egg? Now there is doubt, and a lot of it. It's not because I haven't experienced a dragon, it's because nobody has. And the claim from the video that you should treat those both as a 50/50 claim was laughable.
AIU’s/Devon Tracys series on The Central Park Five is essential viewing.
Where do I find it?
It should be uploaded, and reuploaded so that everyone can find it.
ThnkGod I found your channel again *cheers!🎉
😊
I find Devon both interesting and annoying.
I would put all my money on Devon's Jenga game, which he is also perched on top with his cognitive dissonance pieces below, will topple before Lambda even feels a slight wobble of his.
Sem Harris is his idol. Muh logic 😅
Hes a huge zionist
Fair play to you on this @Lambda. You held your ground pretty well. As a Christian beginner and a technical guy myself I find these kinds of conversations very helpful in making sense of my own thought processes. I'd only add that I feel that the instinct or a gut feeling you both mention as well as the concept of objective morality is a proof enough for me of the holy spirit in us.
so you had a feeling, and that proved an all encompassing worldview for you ? how bout that...
"i feel" let me stop you right there, you are likely wrong and since you started that way.... you likely know you are wrong.
@martinade9195 Great to hear! Make sure you also sub to Lambda Bible Studies! I really don't believe there are any atheist arguments that can shake me any more. After a certain point you've heard them all. There are some arguments that are tricky, particularly to do with the problem of evil. However, there are much more difficult problems with the atheist position. I don't think of debates as particularly useful but sometimes a slightly more combative conversation like this one can be fun
Man I wonder what Devon’s reaction is to an individual like me would be when he hears I was an engineering student who used to be a very staunch atheist that converted to Christianity as a rational, logical, and at least averagely intelligent adult.
I just hate that narrative
"because his pride can’t stand the taste of humble pie" reminds me of when Devon said donald trump would definitely lose the presidential election to hilary or when mms guru said francis ngannou fumbled the bag by leaving the ufc
I covert your faith. 😉 What method helped you find god?
@@Raygun9000 same as everybody else. he thinks it. thats the only time its ever real...
if you actually lived in the world as if the supernatural existed and anything could happen at any time you just wouldnt be able to interact with the world without disastrous outcomes. thats why atheists and christians both live their physical lives as if there is no supernatural, its because we dont have a choice.
the only time there is a difference is when you ask the christian about his thoughts.
when its real outside of somebodies mind we can revisit the debate, until then its settled. you are either an atheist, or a liar.
@@Raygun9000 if you are looking for an experience or to actually convince yourself you are barking up the wrong tree. these guys just SAY that happened to them, it didnt actually happen.
and thats basically christianity in a nutshell. lot of saying things, lot of thinking things, lot of feeling things, but nothing actually happening though.
soon though im sure, right christians?
Fun fact, Devon’s not his real name. It’s actually Exeter.
Devon got real excited for someone with no investment.
The atheist vs thiest debate was very old school but certainly enjoyable. I was an athiest during my childhood/early adolescence which was at the height of the Dawkins/Christopher Hitchens popularity but I've slowly drifted towards the thiest side although I struggle greatly with faith and would simply classify myself as spiritual/pagan.
One interesting thing I would say is that athiests often act smug/superior in these debates with their so-called superior rationality until of course it's pointed out that religion/belief in Gods/God was an evolutionary survival mechanism that enabled mankind's intellect to grow whilst giving us the tools to cling on in the face of extreme suffering and cruelty. If not for this mechanism, mankind would have gone extinct. Therefore of the two, Luke is a normal and healthy individual whereas Devon is not. The moment it's pointed out that atheists are not only in the minority but also abnormal do you see their inherent smugness turn to irritation and rage.
This is one of the best Christian / Atheist discussions I’ve ever seen. Also I was about to write an “I’m not a Christian but…” comment but then I felt I was being dishonest in some way. Very strange. Anyway keep up the good work Luke, amazing content.
Devon’s massive ego remains both my most and least favourite thing about him. I admire it in the sense that he’s so disagreeable, and will cut against the grain on topics even when it’s unpopular. He is truly his own man in that regard. He always thinks for himself, and that requires a kind of stubborn courage I have to respect.
On the other hand, it also makes him kind of boring. He can’t revise his worldview on any deep or serious level because his pride can’t stand the taste of humble pie for long enough to admit he was wrong, or that the people he’s been mocking for so long might have had a point. The consequence of all of this is that his entire worldview comes off as stale and developmentally stunted. He can’t grow because he lacks the humility to learn.
I’m listening to this, and a lot of his takes feel like something that’s been reheated in the microwave after been frozen in a block of ice since the late 2000’s. Like when the algorithm occasionally feeds me a decade plus year old DarkMatter2525 video.
Yeah he displays a lot of lazy thinking. He also just seems like the pinnacle of above it all Gen Xer.
"because his pride can’t stand the taste of humble pie" reminds me of when Devon said donald trump would definitely lose the presidential election to hilary or when mms guru said francis ngannou fumbled the bag by leaving the ufc
@@ItsameAlex Weird place to find another Guru watcher 😂 but to his credit he retracted that whole thing. I don't understand the comparison tbh, MMA Guru is the most open to criticism of anyone I've ever seen online, he almost never bans people from his chat no matter what insults they call him whereas AIU will ban people for the most minor disagreement. Also Guru often admits when he's wrong and doesn't even really take himself seriously in the first place. AIU is the polar opposite in just about every way. Weird comparison.
@@ItsameAlex he was right about Helwani not having Ngannou's best interests at heart encouraging him, even if it did work out miraculously it wasn't right for people to encourage it out of hatred for the ufc. I think that was Guru's point.
@@redacted9723 guru and aiu have almost the same exact thinking style, but they're like parallel universe versions of each other, so they have some interesting parallel universe differences: aiu always says foreign names wrong, mma guru always says them correctly, aiu "i was always cool, you guys are nerds", guru says "I guess twitter is filled with cool dudes with amazing lives. I'm a nerd". And there are more. But both of them are based on race and have the same thinking style regarding the topic.
Devon needs ro come back to youtube.
He's too stupid for that. He forces YT to delete his channels, because he always talks himself into a rage. He just doesn't get it. He loves that victim roll "Boohoo, YT deletes me, cause I say the truth". No, they delete his channels because of literal hate-speech.
Glad you got your audio sorted, it would have been horrible to have to listen to this guy at 10/10 volume and Luke at 2/10. Congrats on being consistently polite & rational as he ridicules you & your worldview with 2010-era fedorarguments.
Get Chris Langan on.
🔥🎸🔥
Thank you!
omg I really wanted to see his answer to the silver goldfish example and then it cut off... I hope you bring up the example again let's see..
that's a great example ohh man it would've been cool to see his answer
oh man im so disappointed. The tshirt example was not quite the same as the goldfish one, you set that up perfectly so he can give you answer..
Everybody! Love everybody! - Semipro.
I started thinking he sounds odd. Then I realised I'd confused him with Devon Stack..
Excellent
Athiesm Is Unstoppable: "I have no prior commitments or biases in favour of athiesm, in fact, I don't want it to be true!"
How am I supposed to believe you aren't deluding me when you are actively in the process of deluding yourself?
Of course every athiest believes they have the one privileged, objective, view from nowhere argument, demanding that in order for something to be true, they personally must be convinced of it, as if they are the one sole perfectly rational being in the universe.
I felt like I was transported back to 2007 with the religious debate here. Not a bad thing by the way. It was a simpler time.
The whole atheism plus thing was a fun ride up until elavatorgate.
Devon totally red pilled me on American joggers. His RUclips channel would have been huge if it was a free speech platform. He will always be a legend in my eyes.
This is the first time Devon Tracey has mentioned ever playing videogames. He acted like he never. I wonder what games he played.
Fortnite
He streamed counter-strike years back
around 1:30:40 Sam Harris would definitely disagree with Devon Tracey there, as he believes in objective moral values. He wrote a whole book about it called "The Moral Landscape".
Who cares what sam Harris says, really? I know aiu is a fan, but shit, guys proven to be a bird brain.
Music makes poetry tolerable.
At around 1:14:40 When Devon says "Do you acknowledge that you have a vested interest in this" it's kind of like Conor Mcgregor predicting he'll ko Jose Aldo in the first round and Devon saying "Do you acknowledge you have a vested interest in that being true", just because he wants it to be true doesn't mean it's not true.
Dude are you actually a female in a Lambda chat quoting mma stuff and referencing MMA Guru? I have a wife and kid but any single lads in here need to get to work 😂
@@redacted9723 nah im a dude. (O would link the song im a dude with robert downy jr if I could)
@@ItsameAlex lol how much cooler are guys, amiright? 😂
@redacted9723 I suspect it's a bot. It floods the comments, copy/pastes and replies to itself. Very weird if that's a human. I could be wrong because some humans are very weird.
@@redacted9723 word brother. word
Anyone know how i can follow this guy?
@itsDevonTracey on Twitter/X
I believe AIU (atheism is unstoppable), on sites like rubble, bitchute etc.
There was always a sense of irritation in Devon's voice, unlike all the other guests on The Gauntlet.
The problem is that Devan will spurg out and dox you
lol twitter was not a noble effort, the word count was limited to the level that would maximally induce rage and thus make people stay longer on the platform. Thankfully the word count has increased since then.
Acknowledges that the bibles consists of multiple books, but then says that the claims are unbelievable because "it's just one book" confirming it. Would adding a fifth testament help, cause four is somehow not enough? I'm pretty sure he'd say "five is just one too short, give me a sixth one", if he was shown a fifth testament.
I'm not a Christian, but Devon Tracey's argumentation is based on multiple of those dishonest tricks.
Just another example: He says it's natural to believe in atheism, but when Lambda says that kids tend to believe in god and that shows how natural the tendency is, then suddenly the argument is "but they are stupid and don't count". I bet if a "less intelligent" group of people believed more in it, Tracey would say that they do it, cause they are stupid. If the group was more intelligent, then he'd say that they only do it, because they are good at making up arguments that serve them. High levels of hypocrisy / sophistry / dishonesty.
Also Tracey says that all the eye witness accounts of Jesus resurrection would not be admissible in court and that eye witnesses don't count. What would he find believable in that scenario? An ancient Roman security cam footage from ancient times, before electricity?
Just....
Make up arguements on the fly
I thought there were just two testaments, the Old and the New.
@@Vingul My bad. I meant to say testimony, not testament, and was referring to the gospels.
@@DoubleBob I see, thanks for clarifying.
I mean Dawkins' position is that religion is BS, but admittedly very useful BS.
was a great argument for god... because feels
Pre-watch "like" for AIU
Always dislike when an Atheist claims that my beliefs are biased while they pretend theirs are not.
you dont think he made a pretty good point by saying that he wishes it was true, its just not.
and if we can just be honest for a minute? not believing in something ive never seen or experienced is a lot easier than believing in something ive never seen or experienced. so if we are fishing for bias we are going to fish in the pond where the guy seems to be going above and beyond ALL of our lived experience to believe something.
plus atheism (admitting there is no god) is more popular now but it wasnt before. almost everybody over the age of 30 would have been told as a child that god is real, i know i certainly was.
so we know you have a bias because we had the same one, we just got over it because saying you believe in resurrection and eternal life is HARD for an honest person.
@suzukisixk7
I wasn't raised as a Christian, so I don't know how that argument applies.
And if you do want to be honest then let's examine that you probably do believe in things that you have never seen or interacted with.
Do you believe in the big bang? Or Abiogenesis (the theory that life generated itself from rocks and minerals)? Or that Ghengis Khan ever existed? Or that Socrates and Aristotle were real people?
How are those claims and theories any more or less valid than the hypothesis of God's existence? Or is it that your personal bias makes some claims and hypothesis more palatable than others?
@suzukisixk7
I wasn't raised as a believer, so I don't know how that argument applies.
But I would imagine that anyone raised in a family that did believe has as much chance of developing a positive or negative bias towards it based on how it affected their lives.
If you do want to be honest, then can we examine that you do probably believe things that you have never seen or experienced?
Big bang? Abiogenesis? Did Ghengis Khan exist? Are Socrates or Aristotle real people?
Other than bias and preferences, what's makes such claims or theories more valid than the hypothesis of God's existence?
@@thetyrantofsyracuse they covered this in the video... "I have a T-shirt in my room" and "a thinking entity created humans" are two different claims.
Not believing in something I haven't seen and not believing in something nobody has seen are also not the same thing.
So yes I think ghengis Khan was a real person and fred Flintstone was not, despite hearing about both of them. Understand?
@@thetyrantofsyracuse another example used in the video was Tesco selling an egg right? Maybe you can answer back to me, when you guys do these examples (cause this is pretty common) why do you always use such mundane objects?
Is testco selling one egg? That's possible with what we know about the world so sure I can believe that.
Is testco selling one dragon egg? Now there is doubt, and a lot of it. It's not because I haven't experienced a dragon, it's because nobody has. And the claim from the video that you should treat those both as a 50/50 claim was laughable.