I found this fascinating...and learned quite a few things. Thanks for putting this together. I've been aware of the quicker speed of the Tefi version for quite a while. A subscriber who found it on that record noticed the slower pace...and I've since bought the disc too. It's great to hear it in stereo...but I've also become accustomed to the speeded up version.
I believe we've all grown accustomed to the sped up version thanks to your puppet skits. In any case, I think it's safe to say you unearthed a lost gem with your tefifon videos.
Can you please re-upload the song with more bass? And possibly midrange? Also, please post the Stereo version with tempo speeded up to match the Tefifon version. Thanks, from a fan.
Actually, I recently purchased a Denon DP-47F of my own to replace my Realistic linear tracker, mainly because my Realistic was having some ongoing mechanical issues that I just can't seem to fix, plus its construction just seems cheap and plastiky. I won't deny that Techmoan's review of the Denon DP-47F also helped sway my decision! Mine was professionally re-capped, lubricated, and serviced, and I even had him replace the stock DL-80 cartridge with an Audio Technica AT-440mlb cartridge and Microline stylus, so I am hoping to do a video on this soon! My copy of Südamerikanische Rhythmen is only mono; I'm hoping to get hold of a stereo copy one day, too!
A ceramic cartridge does have a roughly line-level output, but it needs to be connected to a high-impedance input stage in order to provide the correct frequency response. When the Tefifon was new this was not an issue because vacuum tube (valve) amplifiers inherently have high input impedance, but modern solid-state amplifiers do not, unless you use an input specially designed for use with a ceramic/crystal phono cartridge. This will cause a loss of bass response, such as apparent in Techmoan's Tefifon recordings.
A crystal connected to low impedance amplifier behaves like a magnetic cartridge, outputting a derivative of the groove shape, so apply the RIAA curve and you are near at home.
2 года назад+16
The only way to know which speed is correct is if someone had access to the original score to tell us the key the song was composed in. But assuming from the "compilation" nature of the Tefi cartridge, it was probably sped up to make room for more music, and the LP is very likely the original recording
I agree and I'm very Disappointed with a lot of Modern Stereo Systems as the Sound Reproduction is Rubbish and I found the best Stereo Recordings too be from 1958 to 1972 as I also Collect and got all the Original HMV Recordings of Daniel Barenboim Playing the Mozart Piano Concerto's from the Piano all Recorded Between 1967 and 1975 as well as the Complete Beetoven Solo Piano Sonatas all Recorded Between 1967 and 1970 all on the HMV HQS Black label
a 6.17% speed increase is a transposition by 103 cents, that is, very close to a semitone (exactly one semitone is 100 cents or 5.95%). with this in mind, i think it's likely that the recording was sped up so as to fit onto the tape while still being in tune, and it's playing at the correct speed
I'm not sure that would cause a speed difference (at least not major), more just surface noise, possibly cross-groove echos (whispers of the next groove over, noticeable with turntables with detuned anti-skating). That's just speculation though.
I think the LP had more high end definition to be honest, it would be interesting to map a spectrum of pure white noise using the same capture devices from both a vinyl and the tefifon. just to see how their raw eq's compare? but yes i really enjoyed this video :)
I haven’t done a real analysis of it, but given the fineness of typical LP stylii vs the apparent fineness of the Tefifon stylus, I wouldn’t be surprised if the LP had more high end definition. As I see it, LP technology continued to evolve over the years, with things like fine elliptical and hyper-elliptical stylii, and the Tefifon might have benefited from such improvements in stylus technology as well, had it lived on.
@@zuperdee Shame it didn’t live on, so many formats didn’t get the chance they deserved. But yeah you’re probably right. Also thanks for making the effort to reply to a 5 year old comment 😂😂😂
Personally I tend to think the reason why the Tefifon lacks bass is due to an impedance miss-match because of the ceramic cartridge it uses. Most modern solid-state preamps simply aren't designed for ceramics and don't have the very high input impedance required. that miss-match is known for reducing Bass levels.
Whoa! You found a copy of the Tefifon theme on a Vinyl LP!? Wow! You need to record all of it and publish it online so we can create the best version of the song available!
The Tefifon don't have an amplifier of it's own so it was design to work whit radio consoles of the 1950's and, depending on type and manufactures, they all gave a little different sound and equalization. I believe to really compeer the sound quality of an LP and a Tefifon tape one should play the Tefifon connected to a 50's radio and the LP on a record player of the same era, with piezoelectric pick-up, trough the same radio amp as the Tefifon.
My thoughts, too. Any kind of "looped tape" device (even compact cassettes with their back-and-forth recording) has issues with matching the length of the recording to the length of the tape. Speed adjustments to avoid overrun and/or excessive silence are not uncommon.
Speaking of tape stretching, Del Shannon Runaway (stereo) used in Kill Bill has 2 stretch spots on the original tape. Many have tried to clean this up but it's still there. It's during the keyboard solo. There are 2 spots in the solo. Listen carefully, you will bear them. Just like Pictueres of Matchstick Men has bearing rumble in the beginning. I had a German CD that had these and several more. But those songs are VERY pronounced with these artifacts of analog recording. I also had AC/DC Back in Black album that had an artifact on Shoot To Thrill. This was in 1986 i had gotten that one. The first years of digital and the CD mastering technology of the day. I think dithering was a way to solve the problem on later pressings
Maybe the version recorded onto the Teficart is just too fast. Like, the recorder/presser did it wrong, and it’s just too fast. Maybe they even sped it up to fit all the longs on one cart.
It's not just techmoans copy that is running too fast. There was another upload using a different tefifon (one integrated in an old german 50s transistor radio) that had the same speed. So it must have been a mistake / decision by the manufacturing company to press it that way.
I own a Seeburg 1000 Record with one side full of wow and flutter and the other side plays fine. Mastering errors are very interesting and fascinating to discover. I also have archived many background music records for all to see on my channel too.
@@Fardemark Yes, it seems like in practice, there were a LOT of off-center record pressings out there. More often than not, I’ve also noticed that it seems to be where one side is near perfect, and the other side has the problem. It isn’t too surprising, given that they had to re-discover and re-punch the center point after looking at the grooves under a microscope when creating the stampers, and given the time pressure they were probably under, they probably weren’t always as careful about it as they could have been. I’ve sometimes wondered if it would be possible to invent a new manufacturing process that didn’t require re-finding the center everytime.
They could've sped the songs up to fit them on the tape. Also, they may have reduced bass on the tape to compress the space. Furthermore, the ceramic cartridge requires a very high impedance input (3 meg is ideal). Anything less will significantly reduce bass. Further still, that particular cartridge provably has lower compliance, which introduces various distortions into the music.
First of all, the Tefifon company wasn't a real recording company, they were radio,tv and tefifon manufacturers.If you listen to there programs,you will not find real great german singers or orchestras playing for them, because the record companies didn t allow them to do so. There equipment for recordings weren't 1 class,because there was not so much money to make. The crystallite System SK451 was the cheapest on the market and got an equalizer, you will find em in a little resistor at the cable connector to lower and the high frequencies. There were no RIAA in Germany that time.Every company did there own thing. A cristalite system can only, only real working on a Tube radio or amplifier,1 meg ohm input.Everything else gives a wrong sound. the Baccarola record was a cheap record company wich were sold in departmentstores.They bought old tapes and cut new records or made covers of new songs with b or c class singers. That one of these companies had probably a little bit to fast running tape machine is very likely that time.The Baccarloa record must be about 1964/65.The original Tefi recording is from the year 1957 as written on the cassette. The Tefifon was dying already in the last year of the 1950th and just 3 years more with just a few new releases every year.They startet even with Stereo but there the lacks of the system were becoming a big problem.The plastic tape had to much flutter and noise trough the cassette winding system. For the time the tefi system was introduced and that was long before the war it was absolutely revolutionary.Up to 1 hour on a tape to the normal 25 cm shellac record and 3 minutes. After the war they startet already again in 1949. I am from Germany and i found this very funny, that Americans and Britains like this song so much.There were so much music like this in Germany that time, all forgotten. thanks to Technoman,hope Mr.Drabek sits on his cloud in the heavens and enjoy our appreciation for his music after such a looooooong time. Merry Christmas to all of you Joerg
@@1911olympic I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say the Tefifon had greater fidelity than standard phonograph records, but it definitely sounded good, and it obviously did have an advantage over phonograph records in terms of play time.
I’m fortunate enough to have a Tefifon, the Schlager-Revue II cartridge, and the Südamerikanische Rhythmen LP, the same as Techmoan. My LP plays Cuba Baion slower as well. When I digitized the LP, I sped it up after recording to match the Tefi because the slowed down version just sounded wrong to my ears. My Tefifon also has a Schumann-Merula SK451 cartridge, and I built a small battery powered MOSFET preamp to give it an equalized line-level output from the ceramic cartridge. It sounds fantastic.
I know what you mean about the slower speed not sounding right! OTOH, the frequency response of the LP does sound better than the Tefifon to me, especially in the bass frequencies. I wonder also how the Tefifon might have evolved if it had been able to use some of the same cartridges and stylii that became available on standard phonographs in the 1970’s and 80’s. Have you ever considered making a video on your Tefifon and the cartridges and pre-amps you use?
Piezoelectric cartridges also need a preamp to achieve perfect equalization. You can use them without preamp and without equalization, but the sound quality will be just "okay", not as good as it should be.
I expect the Tefifon is suffering more wow and flutter than your end, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the Tefifon is going too fast. The Vinyl seems to have more definition and dynamic range, and sounds better, but both sound incredible still.
Just Another RUclips Channel It sounds even better on my new Denon DP-47f with the Audio Technica AT-440mlb cartridge! I also found out recently that there was a stereo version of the Südamerikanische Rhythmen Album. (I only have the mono version.) I wonder what the stereo version sounds like!
The RIAA curve does actually two things. The output from a magnetic cartridge is proportional to its speed and not the displacement, so it outputs derivative of what it reads. For a sound, it means 6 dB/octave high pass filter. That's why low frequencies have to be amplified more, than high. However, the RIAA curve is not a 6dB/oct straight line. It is more flat at medium frequencies. This means high frequencies are dampened when recording and amplified when playing. It is done this way to make better use of recording media properties. The vinyl record doesn't like big frequencies at high amplitudes. The crystal cartridge needs the preamp. Not for voltage, as it is high enough, but to lover the output resistance. So you have to use a preamp that has high resistance on input and low resistance on the output, while the gain is abput 1. However, you can use the low resistance, low voltage amplifiers, with something like RIAA curve - the crystal cartridge, when connected to low resistance input, behaves like the magnetic one. Enthusiast of this solution tells that low input resistance/impedance dampens internal resonances of the crystal, and this makes the sound better.
I’m not sure where you found this from, but I’d say your source is not altogether correct. The output from a magnetic cartridge is most definitely NOT dependent on record speed. If that were the case, 45’s would almost certainly be louder than 33’s, which is NOT the case. But records that have wider grooves DO have more amplitude and dynamic range potential, which is why they’re often favored for drums/bass/techno records.
@@zuperdee Not a record speed, a stylus speed. When a stylus doesn't move, the magnetic cartridge doesn't output anything, regardless of the stylus displacement. So, the magnetic cartridge outputs a voltage that represents a derivative of the groove shape and not the shape itself. Crystal cartridges, however, generate voltage proportional to the stylus displacement if connected to a high impedance preamp. If connected to a low impedance preamp, it starts to behave different- too much to write
Entirely possible! I hadn’t thought of that factor. Still, the input would surely have to be impedance matched, much as they are for mics and everything else, so I’m not sure how much difference it would make.
Would you be able to provide a digital recording of the song on your vinyl? (Without speed alteration) From hearing the timbre in the clip I believe the vinyl might be the correct key. There have been many recordings over the years whose master recordings were transferred at incorrect speeds. A notable example would be Runaway by Del Shannon. We used to cover it with my band. It always seemed awkward in Bb minor, for both the guitars and myself on the keys. Somehow or other I later deduced it was slightly too high, and many of its releases are that way. When slowed down, the whole thing just sounds correct in A minor--the organ solo is actually much easier to play.
The tefifon is actually probably superior to an LP, because on an LP it is necessary to distort the sound quality to keep the needle in the groove. It's a pity this technology never made further inroads to the rest of the world. It's clearly superior to an 8 track or cassette. I was surprised that this existed, and never really made it out of Germany.
I found the[EMI]HMV Sound Quality Stereo from the early 1960s to be far better as I've got a lot of them as I'm a Collector and Admirer of the late Yehudi Menuhin
Tefi with the WE curve definitely is best of them all. The LP sounds like presence is missing in comparison, and the WE curve definitely brings out all the bass.
The only thing i noticed wrong with the Western Electric + Tefifon combo was the highest trebles were a bit dull, especially in comparison to your machine (LP) + RIAA. Perhaps there could be a consumer-made frequency response curve just for Tefifons.
I think the Western Electric curve sounds too bright and the RIAA may be more apt but I wonder why they left that stage out of the signal chain in the device if it should have been there.
To be perfectly fair, I’m not sure that the Tefifon “should” have had a built-in pre-amp. After all, most standard turntables do not have a built-in pre-amp or RIAA equalization either. For all we know, maybe the Tefifon was intended to be used with a specific kind of pre-amp or stereo receiver that was only made at the time.
@@dean6816 If you know the turntable speed is correct, then I suppose it could be the record itself. If it’s an unofficial release, I wouldn’t be too surprised.
@@zuperdee Yeah It was released in 1972 on Contour (Pickwick) label and I only purchased it for that track! At least the pitch control on my turntable comes in handy anyway.🙂
Wow and Flutter could be both causing the misplaced beats and speed disparity. If Techmoan’s Tefifon lines up with your time calculations, then the issue is probably on your end, caused by your record player.
This is a distinct possibility-W&F is a problem for ALL analog media, although I think the Tefifon would probably suffer from it more, since the Tefifon media is fed by a roller, and any slight irregularity in its roundness can cause noticeable irregularities in transport speed, whereas on a turntable, especially if it uses a PLL quartz-type system, the biggest source of W&F is likely to be the phonograph record itself-if the disc is stamped the slightest bit off-center (and in practice, MANY of them were), this could result in pitch irregularities on every single revolution of the disc. That’s why Nakamichi even invented a special turntable that had a way of dealing with off-center pressings! (It was also VERY rare and expensive though!)
That’s one possibility. It’s also possible they needed to fit it into a certain space on the track. It’s amazing how one can get used to hearing it one way vs the other. Thank you so much for stopping by!
Yes, and _Südamerikanische Rhythmen_ was what we would nowadays call a "compilation album." For anyone wishing to hear the entire LP in stereo, it exists here on RUclips: ruclips.net/video/X1U_3-ifPKI/видео.html (also, BTW, _Cuba Baion_ was *composed* by Kurt Drabek)
'What the tefifon makers did for equalization remains a mystery". By asking this question, I think you kind of missed the whole point of the reason for the tefifon. The answer is most likely, nothing. It isn't really needed. Remember that the fundamental reason for the RIAA curve application is to compensate for the constant deceleration of the linear velocity of the groove beneath the stylus on a disk shaped recording. The linear velocity of the groove decreases as the center of the record is approached, resulting in the frequencies being physically compacted as the center is approached. This is what the RIAA compensates, and helps restore the sound dynamics. The tefifon does not have this issue. Like tape, it has a constant linear velocity,
Well, compensating for deceleration is _part_ of the reason for the RIAA curve. If you cut a record _without_ reducing the bass content, the groove WILL 'crash into itself' on the next revolution (or alternatively, the groove pitch would need to be increased so much that the running time would be reduced!). And: many phono cartridges/pickup arms would simply be catapulted out of such a groove when they tried to play it! Before the RIAA curve was agreed upon, pretty much every record company used a different EQ curve when cutting their discs (for example, Decca's FFRR [Full Frequency Range Recording] curve). This is why trying to get a pre-RIAA LP to sound 'accurate' can be both a challenge and a nightmare. In the 1950s-1960s, some Leak hi-fi pre-amps had a massive rotary switch which allowed the user to select from something like a dozen different replay curves, for the reason just given.
Could it be that the Tefifon motor would need exactly 220V? This was the voltage in Germany until 1987, now we have 230V. Maybe the Tefifon use a universal motor...
Good observation! This is definitely true, but I doubt it makes any difference. The motor in the Tefifon (as in most speed-critical applications like HiFi equipment and AC-powered clocks) is almost certainly a synchronous motor, and the speed of a synchronous motor is almost entirely dependent on the AC frequency, and not so much on the voltage. Furthermore, even if the voltage did matter, a 5% increase in AC line voltage still wouldn’t explain a ~15% increase in playback speed.
Are both these pressings using the same kind of modulation? My understanding was that the stylus for the Tefifon was mono, and worked much like a 78rpm record, while LPs used smaller grooves (possibly stereo?) with a differently shaped stylus. www.vinylrecorder.com/stereo.html Thanks for the video.
Even the very lowest wow and flutter devices can't align perfectly to themselves if recorded twice into Audacity. I mean... at least that applies to anything that doesn't cost more than the average person makes in a year. I'm sure a turntable with ridiculously high inertia might overcome that problem, but it's already imperceptible so there's not really a point.
No doubt. Plus, even if the turntable was 100% perfectly W&F free, there’s no guarantee the record itself was pressed totally on-center. In practice, off-center pressings seemed to happen a lot more than they should have, and I’ve encountered MANY examples. Usually, it seems like one side is fine while the other is off, and this can cause really bad W&F, too. Nakamichi actually did make a turntable with a special mechanism to test the record before play and adjust the spindle to compensate for off-center pressings too, but working examples of them are probably VERY rare and expensive.
So how do you know it’s a different take? They sound absolutely identical to me apart from the speed, to the point where I doubt one could tell any difference if administered a double blind A/B test after correcting the speeds.
I would hope someone here identified the explanation of the speed difference as simple. The motor in the Tefifon is designed to run at 230VAC 50hz. So unless you are providing AC frequency conversion to the Tefifon as well as 230VAC, its going to run fast at 230VAC 60hz.
Since the Tefifon is a loop of finite plastic, I'm thinking it suffers the same time vs. tape length problem as 8 tracks do. In order to fit all the material on that loop, either the songs had to be edited or sped up. In this case, probably the latter. :)
senorverde09 I've never heard of this before... How and why was this done with 8 tracks? Surely if the loop could store X minutes, it would be easy enough to pick songs that total X minutes or less, no?
@@zuperdee Consider a 40 minute album. A standard 8 track, with its 4 programs, would only need a 10 minute loop of tape. Once one program finishes the playback head would physically drop and play another pair of tracks on the same tape. This of course meant that you had to be careful with your song selection so that no song would be in the middle of playing when the loop reaches its end. Often times the song was faded out before the end of the loop, the player ker-chunked to the next program, and the song resumed. Or the songs were edited. Or rarely the songs were sped up a little. Why was this done? To save money. Since the Tefifon is essentially a single groove occupying the finite width of a belt I think the manufactures sped up songs to get more onto a cartridge. After all, the bulk of Tefifon programming was compilations.
@@michaelhelgeland4588 Those were home recording cartridges. The bulk of commercial music 8 tracks tried to use as little tape as possible to save money. Hence the mid-song program changes and rearranged track listings.
I found this fascinating...and learned quite a few things. Thanks for putting this together. I've been aware of the quicker speed of the Tefi version for quite a while. A subscriber who found it on that record noticed the slower pace...and I've since bought the disc too. It's great to hear it in stereo...but I've also become accustomed to the speeded up version.
I believe we've all grown accustomed to the sped up version thanks to your puppet skits. In any case, I think it's safe to say you unearthed a lost gem with your tefifon videos.
Can you please re-upload the song with more bass? And possibly midrange? Also, please post the Stereo version with tempo speeded up to match the Tefifon version. Thanks, from a fan.
Now you can use both versions for the funny muppet pedants!
Actually, I recently purchased a Denon DP-47F of my own to replace my Realistic linear tracker, mainly because my Realistic was having some ongoing mechanical issues that I just can't seem to fix, plus its construction just seems cheap and plastiky. I won't deny that Techmoan's review of the Denon DP-47F also helped sway my decision! Mine was professionally re-capped, lubricated, and serviced, and I even had him replace the stock DL-80 cartridge with an Audio Technica AT-440mlb cartridge and Microline stylus, so I am hoping to do a video on this soon! My copy of Südamerikanische Rhythmen is only mono; I'm hoping to get hold of a stereo copy one day, too!
Techmoan Oh my god what!? You own the disc!? Please publish the full LP version!
A ceramic cartridge does have a roughly line-level output, but it needs to be connected to a high-impedance input stage in order to provide the correct frequency response. When the Tefifon was new this was not an issue because vacuum tube (valve) amplifiers inherently have high input impedance, but modern solid-state amplifiers do not, unless you use an input specially designed for use with a ceramic/crystal phono cartridge. This will cause a loss of bass response, such as apparent in Techmoan's Tefifon recordings.
You sir are very correct
A crystal connected to low impedance amplifier behaves like a magnetic cartridge, outputting a derivative of the groove shape, so apply the RIAA curve and you are near at home.
The only way to know which speed is correct is if someone had access to the original score to tell us the key the song was composed in. But assuming from the "compilation" nature of the Tefi cartridge, it was probably sped up to make room for more music, and the LP is very likely the original recording
I agree and I'm very Disappointed with a lot of Modern Stereo Systems as the Sound Reproduction is Rubbish and I found the best Stereo Recordings too be from 1958 to 1972 as I also Collect and got all the Original HMV Recordings of Daniel Barenboim Playing the Mozart Piano Concerto's from the Piano all Recorded Between 1967 and 1975 as well as the Complete Beetoven Solo Piano Sonatas all Recorded Between 1967 and 1970 all on the HMV HQS Black label
Please upload your recording of the LP, it has so much better quality.
The Tefi with the WE equalization sounds better in my opinion.
The record is stereo
a 6.17% speed increase is a transposition by 103 cents, that is, very close to a semitone (exactly one semitone is 100 cents or 5.95%). with this in mind, i think it's likely that the recording was sped up so as to fit onto the tape while still being in tune, and it's playing at the correct speed
As a long term Techmoan subscriber, I found your video very informative and interesting. You now have my subscription too. :)
Is it possible that the speed is fast because the plastic loop is shrinking as it ages?
I'm not sure that would cause a speed difference (at least not major), more just surface noise, possibly cross-groove echos (whispers of the next groove over, noticeable with turntables with detuned anti-skating). That's just speculation though.
I think the LP had more high end definition to be honest, it would be interesting to map a spectrum of pure white noise using the same capture devices from both a vinyl and the tefifon. just to see how their raw eq's compare? but yes i really enjoyed this video :)
The average track speed is much faster, than Tefifon. Tefifon is more like a 33 rpm 7" disc.
I haven’t done a real analysis of it, but given the fineness of typical LP stylii vs the apparent fineness of the Tefifon stylus, I wouldn’t be surprised if the LP had more high end definition. As I see it, LP technology continued to evolve over the years, with things like fine elliptical and hyper-elliptical stylii, and the Tefifon might have benefited from such improvements in stylus technology as well, had it lived on.
@@zuperdee Shame it didn’t live on, so many formats didn’t get the chance they deserved. But yeah you’re probably right. Also thanks for making the effort to reply to a 5 year old comment 😂😂😂
Personally I tend to think the reason why the Tefifon lacks bass is due to an impedance miss-match because of the ceramic cartridge it uses. Most modern solid-state preamps simply aren't designed for ceramics and don't have the very high input impedance required. that miss-match is known for reducing Bass levels.
"Rhythmen" is pronounced "Rütmen", btw.
Nice video, really expands upon Techmoan's video
Whoa! You found a copy of the Tefifon theme on a Vinyl LP!? Wow! You need to record all of it and publish it online so we can create the best version of the song available!
Just Another RUclips Channel I would, but I'm afraid of copyright issues.
The Tefi with the WE curve sounded far better than I thought it would.
I agree! It definitely had HiFi potential.
The Tefifon don't have an amplifier of it's own so it was design to work whit radio consoles of the 1950's and, depending on type and manufactures, they all gave a little different sound and equalization. I believe to really compeer the sound quality of an LP and a Tefifon tape one should play the Tefifon connected to a 50's radio and the LP on a record player of the same era, with piezoelectric pick-up, trough the same radio amp as the Tefifon.
Most likely the master was sped up for the Tefifon
to make the entire album fit the available time the cartridge could contain.
This seems like a logical possibility.
My thoughts, too. Any kind of "looped tape" device (even compact cassettes with their back-and-forth recording) has issues with matching the length of the recording to the length of the tape. Speed adjustments to avoid overrun and/or excessive silence are not uncommon.
Could you please upload a full version of the lp recording?
here
ruclips.net/video/XJJvpMOZG6M/видео.html
Could you please upload the full vinyl version?
Seconded :D
Yes, please!
Plz
PLEASE
Bit late but you can find it here ruclips.net/video/f55M5woMzYQ/видео.html
Fantastic video, please keep them coming. Thanks.
I am hoping to release more soon!
Speaking of tape stretching, Del Shannon Runaway (stereo) used in Kill Bill has 2 stretch spots on the original tape. Many have tried to clean this up but it's still there. It's during the keyboard solo. There are 2 spots in the solo. Listen carefully, you will bear them. Just like Pictueres of Matchstick Men has bearing rumble in the beginning. I had a German CD that had these and several more. But those songs are VERY pronounced with these artifacts of analog recording. I also had AC/DC Back in Black album that had an artifact on Shoot To Thrill. This was in 1986 i had gotten that one. The first years of digital and the CD mastering technology of the day. I think dithering was a way to solve the problem on later pressings
Wow! This shit was crazy detailed, thanks
Maybe the version recorded onto the Teficart is just too fast. Like, the recorder/presser did it wrong, and it’s just too fast. Maybe they even sped it up to fit all the longs on one cart.
It's not just techmoans copy that is running too fast. There was another upload using a different tefifon (one integrated in an old german 50s transistor radio) that had the same speed. So it must have been a mistake / decision by the manufacturing company to press it that way.
I own a Seeburg 1000 Record with one side full of wow and flutter and the other side plays fine. Mastering errors are very interesting and fascinating to discover. I also have archived many background music records for all to see on my channel too.
@@Fardemark Yes, it seems like in practice, there were a LOT of off-center record pressings out there. More often than not, I’ve also noticed that it seems to be where one side is near perfect, and the other side has the problem. It isn’t too surprising, given that they had to re-discover and re-punch the center point after looking at the grooves under a microscope when creating the stampers, and given the time pressure they were probably under, they probably weren’t always as careful about it as they could have been. I’ve sometimes wondered if it would be possible to invent a new manufacturing process that didn’t require re-finding the center everytime.
They could've sped the songs up to fit them on the tape. Also, they may have reduced bass on the tape to compress the space. Furthermore, the ceramic cartridge requires a very high impedance input (3 meg is ideal). Anything less will significantly reduce bass. Further still, that particular cartridge provably has lower compliance, which introduces various distortions into the music.
First of all, the Tefifon company wasn't a real recording company, they were radio,tv and tefifon manufacturers.If you listen to there programs,you will not find real great german singers or orchestras playing for them, because the record companies didn t allow them to do so.
There equipment for recordings weren't 1 class,because there was not so much money to make.
The crystallite System SK451 was the cheapest on the market and got an equalizer, you will find em in a little resistor at the cable connector to lower and the high frequencies.
There were no RIAA in Germany that time.Every company did there own thing.
A cristalite system can only, only real working on a Tube radio or amplifier,1 meg ohm input.Everything else gives a wrong sound.
the Baccarola record was a cheap record company wich were sold in departmentstores.They bought old tapes and cut new records or made covers of new songs with b or c class singers.
That one of these companies had probably a little bit to fast running tape machine is very likely that time.The Baccarloa record must be about 1964/65.The original Tefi recording is from the year 1957 as written on the cassette.
The Tefifon was dying already in the last year of the 1950th and just 3 years more with just a few new releases every year.They startet even with Stereo but there the lacks of the system were becoming a big problem.The plastic tape had to much flutter and noise trough the cassette winding system.
For the time the tefi system was introduced and that was long before the war it was absolutely revolutionary.Up to 1 hour on a tape to the normal 25 cm shellac record and 3 minutes.
After the war they startet already again in 1949.
I am from Germany and i found this very funny, that Americans and Britains like this song so much.There were so much music like this in Germany that time, all forgotten.
thanks to Technoman,hope Mr.Drabek sits on his cloud in the heavens and enjoy our appreciation for his music after such a looooooong time.
Merry Christmas to all of you
Joerg
About the curve, at the time, when Tefifon was introduced, there was no standard equalisation. So I think that it isn't easy to get the right sound.
I fully agree with the conclusion. The Tefi sounds so much better. A real pity that it did not catch on!
@@1911olympic I’m not sure I’d go so far as to say the Tefifon had greater fidelity than standard phonograph records, but it definitely sounded good, and it obviously did have an advantage over phonograph records in terms of play time.
I used to have that Realistic linear tracking turntable as a teenager!
Cool! Thank you for watching and commenting! :)
I’m fortunate enough to have a Tefifon, the Schlager-Revue II cartridge, and the Südamerikanische Rhythmen LP, the same as Techmoan.
My LP plays Cuba Baion slower as well.
When I digitized the LP, I sped it up after recording to match the Tefi because the slowed down version just sounded wrong to my ears.
My Tefifon also has a Schumann-Merula SK451 cartridge, and I built a small battery powered MOSFET preamp to give it an equalized line-level output from the ceramic cartridge. It sounds fantastic.
I know what you mean about the slower speed not sounding right! OTOH, the frequency response of the LP does sound better than the Tefifon to me, especially in the bass frequencies. I wonder also how the Tefifon might have evolved if it had been able to use some of the same cartridges and stylii that became available on standard phonographs in the 1970’s and 80’s. Have you ever considered making a video on your Tefifon and the cartridges and pre-amps you use?
Piezoelectric cartridges also need a preamp to achieve perfect equalization. You can use them without preamp and without equalization, but the sound quality will be just "okay", not as good as it should be.
Heavenly Father give my brother here the wisdom on all his recordings in Jesus name
I expect the Tefifon is suffering more wow and flutter than your end, and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the Tefifon is going too fast. The Vinyl seems to have more definition and dynamic range, and sounds better, but both sound incredible still.
Just Another RUclips Channel It sounds even better on my new Denon DP-47f with the Audio Technica AT-440mlb cartridge! I also found out recently that there was a stereo version of the Südamerikanische Rhythmen Album. (I only have the mono version.) I wonder what the stereo version sounds like!
About the speed of 19 cm/s, it's the speed of a record's last song.
The RIAA curve does actually two things. The output from a magnetic cartridge is proportional to its speed and not the displacement, so it outputs derivative of what it reads. For a sound, it means 6 dB/octave high pass filter. That's why low frequencies have to be amplified more, than high. However, the RIAA curve is not a 6dB/oct straight line. It is more flat at medium frequencies. This means high frequencies are dampened when recording and amplified when playing. It is done this way to make better use of recording media properties. The vinyl record doesn't like big frequencies at high amplitudes.
The crystal cartridge needs the preamp. Not for voltage, as it is high enough, but to lover the output resistance. So you have to use a preamp that has high resistance on input and low resistance on the output, while the gain is abput 1.
However, you can use the low resistance, low voltage amplifiers, with something like RIAA curve - the crystal cartridge, when connected to low resistance input, behaves like the magnetic one. Enthusiast of this solution tells that low input resistance/impedance dampens internal resonances of the crystal, and this makes the sound better.
I’m not sure where you found this from, but I’d say your source is not altogether correct. The output from a magnetic cartridge is most definitely NOT dependent on record speed. If that were the case, 45’s would almost certainly be louder than 33’s, which is NOT the case. But records that have wider grooves DO have more amplitude and dynamic range potential, which is why they’re often favored for drums/bass/techno records.
@@zuperdee Not a record speed, a stylus speed. When a stylus doesn't move, the magnetic cartridge doesn't output anything, regardless of the stylus displacement. So, the magnetic cartridge outputs a voltage that represents a derivative of the groove shape and not the shape itself.
Crystal cartridges, however, generate voltage proportional to the stylus displacement if connected to a high impedance preamp. If connected to a low impedance preamp, it starts to behave different- too much to write
Piezoelectric pickups has a high impedance and when connected with a lower impedance input, it cuts treble and boosts bass.
Entirely possible! I hadn’t thought of that factor. Still, the input would surely have to be impedance matched, much as they are for mics and everything else, so I’m not sure how much difference it would make.
Would you be able to provide a digital recording of the song on your vinyl? (Without speed alteration)
From hearing the timbre in the clip I believe the vinyl might be the correct key. There have been many recordings over the years whose master recordings were transferred at incorrect speeds. A notable example would be Runaway by Del Shannon. We used to cover it with my band. It always seemed awkward in Bb minor, for both the guitars and myself on the keys. Somehow or other I later deduced it was slightly too high, and many of its releases are that way. When slowed down, the whole thing just sounds correct in A minor--the organ solo is actually much easier to play.
Alex Tirrell Yes please! The vynil is not available to purchase!! Please!
Alex Tirrell I'm afraid of copyright issues. Btw, I am trying to get hold of a stereo version of this record now, since mine is only mono.
The tefifon is actually probably superior to an LP, because on an LP it is necessary to distort the sound quality to keep the needle in the groove. It's a pity this technology never made further inroads to the rest of the world. It's clearly superior to an 8 track or cassette. I was surprised that this existed, and never really made it out of Germany.
Well done finding a copy of that LP. I have been hoping to land a copy myself!
Ray Murray Which one?
Südamerikanische Rhythmen. I like many others have a taste for Cuba Baion, and am keen to add it to my collection.
Ray Murray An ok. I found mine on Discogs.
I found the[EMI]HMV Sound Quality Stereo from the early 1960s to be far better as I've got a lot of them as I'm a Collector and Admirer of the late Yehudi Menuhin
No doubt many records could be “far better” than this one… Recording is an art form for sure. Thank you so much for watching!
Das KC1 Tefifon läuft immer zu schnell, das Thema ist aber nicht neu.
Patrick Jöckle Ja, stimmt. Die Frage ist warum. Das ist noch immer ein Rätsel. :)
I am not convinced yet, if I shall switch from LP to Tefifon or not.
Me neither… The Tefifon doesn’t have a spinning label in the center! I want a label that spins like the LP! 😂
Tefi with the WE curve definitely is best of them all. The LP sounds like presence is missing in comparison, and the WE curve definitely brings out all the bass.
The only thing i noticed wrong with the Western Electric + Tefifon combo was the highest trebles were a bit dull, especially in comparison to your machine (LP) + RIAA. Perhaps there could be a consumer-made frequency response curve just for Tefifons.
I think the Western Electric curve sounds too bright and the RIAA may be more apt but I wonder why they left that stage out of the signal chain in the device if it should have been there.
To be perfectly fair, I’m not sure that the Tefifon “should” have had a built-in pre-amp. After all, most standard turntables do not have a built-in pre-amp or RIAA equalization either. For all we know, maybe the Tefifon was intended to be used with a specific kind of pre-amp or stereo receiver that was only made at the time.
I have a Bee Gees LP (some unofficial greatest hits release) that has the song 'New York Mining Disaster' and that too plays slow????
Does it play too slow on all turntables, or just on one in particular?
@@zuperdee TBH I've only played it on my SL1210 which I know is running at the correct speed??
@@dean6816 If you know the turntable speed is correct, then I suppose it could be the record itself. If it’s an unofficial release, I wouldn’t be too surprised.
@@zuperdee Yeah It was released in 1972 on Contour (Pickwick) label and I only purchased it for that track! At least the pitch control on my turntable comes in handy anyway.🙂
Wow and Flutter could be both causing the misplaced beats and speed disparity. If Techmoan’s Tefifon lines up with your time calculations, then the issue is probably on your end, caused by your record player.
This is a distinct possibility-W&F is a problem for ALL analog media, although I think the Tefifon would probably suffer from it more, since the Tefifon media is fed by a roller, and any slight irregularity in its roundness can cause noticeable irregularities in transport speed, whereas on a turntable, especially if it uses a PLL quartz-type system, the biggest source of W&F is likely to be the phonograph record itself-if the disc is stamped the slightest bit off-center (and in practice, MANY of them were), this could result in pitch irregularities on every single revolution of the disc. That’s why Nakamichi even invented a special turntable that had a way of dealing with off-center pressings! (It was also VERY rare and expensive though!)
I think, they sped up for Tefifon, that the song matches better and in case of instrumental music, some percent wouldn't sound bad.
That’s one possibility. It’s also possible they needed to fit it into a certain space on the track. It’s amazing how one can get used to hearing it one way vs the other. Thank you so much for stopping by!
@@zuperdee that's what I mend, was clumsy to explain it.
Can you please provide a high res copy of your Audacity recording? WAV or FLAC will be fine. Please and thank you.
I’m not sure what the copyright status of this track is, but if it turns out to be legal, what would the best way be to get it to you?
This is sooooo nerdy 🤓 I love it 😂
The LP with riaa sounds better for vinyl LP,and teffifon sounds better with western electric curve.
Baccarola was a German Label that only made really cheap records, mostly cover versions of popular songs.
Yes, and _Südamerikanische Rhythmen_ was what we would nowadays call a "compilation album." For anyone wishing to hear the entire LP in stereo, it exists here on RUclips:
ruclips.net/video/X1U_3-ifPKI/видео.html
(also, BTW, _Cuba Baion_ was *composed* by Kurt Drabek)
'What the tefifon makers did for equalization remains a mystery". By asking this question, I think you kind of missed the whole point of the reason for the tefifon. The answer is most likely, nothing. It isn't really needed. Remember that the fundamental reason for the RIAA curve application is to compensate for the constant deceleration of the linear velocity of the groove beneath the stylus on a disk shaped recording. The linear velocity of the groove decreases as the center of the record is approached, resulting in the frequencies being physically compacted as the center is approached. This is what the RIAA compensates, and helps restore the sound dynamics. The tefifon does not have this issue. Like tape, it has a constant linear velocity,
Well, compensating for deceleration is _part_ of the reason for the RIAA curve. If you cut a record _without_ reducing the bass content, the groove WILL 'crash into itself' on the next revolution (or alternatively, the groove pitch would need to be increased so much that the running time would be reduced!). And: many phono cartridges/pickup arms would simply be catapulted out of such a groove when they tried to play it!
Before the RIAA curve was agreed upon, pretty much every record company used a different EQ curve when cutting their discs (for example, Decca's FFRR [Full Frequency Range Recording] curve). This is why trying to get a pre-RIAA LP to sound 'accurate' can be both a challenge and a nightmare. In the 1950s-1960s, some Leak hi-fi pre-amps had a massive rotary switch which allowed the user to select from something like a dozen different replay curves, for the reason just given.
Could it be that the Tefifon motor would need exactly 220V? This was the voltage in Germany until 1987, now we have 230V. Maybe the Tefifon use a universal motor...
Good observation! This is definitely true, but I doubt it makes any difference. The motor in the Tefifon (as in most speed-critical applications like HiFi equipment and AC-powered clocks) is almost certainly a synchronous motor, and the speed of a synchronous motor is almost entirely dependent on the AC frequency, and not so much on the voltage. Furthermore, even if the voltage did matter, a 5% increase in AC line voltage still wouldn’t explain a ~15% increase in playback speed.
@@zuperdee Take a look: ruclips.net/video/UWTr6rUMsXg/видео.html
@@zuperdee Then consider that England at that time used 240 V ac. Some places may still have that voltage.
Are both these pressings using the same kind of modulation? My understanding was that the stylus for the Tefifon was mono, and worked much like a 78rpm record, while LPs used smaller grooves (possibly stereo?) with a differently shaped stylus. www.vinylrecorder.com/stereo.html
Thanks for the video.
Even the very lowest wow and flutter devices can't align perfectly to themselves if recorded twice into Audacity.
I mean... at least that applies to anything that doesn't cost more than the average person makes in a year. I'm sure a turntable with ridiculously high inertia might overcome that problem, but it's already imperceptible so there's not really a point.
No doubt. Plus, even if the turntable was 100% perfectly W&F free, there’s no guarantee the record itself was pressed totally on-center. In practice, off-center pressings seemed to happen a lot more than they should have, and I’ve encountered MANY examples. Usually, it seems like one side is fine while the other is off, and this can cause really bad W&F, too. Nakamichi actually did make a turntable with a special mechanism to test the record before play and adjust the spindle to compensate for off-center pressings too, but working examples of them are probably VERY rare and expensive.
I think the faster version fits more as a song to dance to.
Hey man, take it easy! :-) It is only a wrong speed on the tefifone
Could you put all the songs on the disc here on RUclips?
It’s a different take not the same actual recording
So how do you know it’s a different take? They sound absolutely identical to me apart from the speed, to the point where I doubt one could tell any difference if administered a double blind A/B test after correcting the speeds.
Definitely Tachmoan's Tefifon is running fast; you can tell by listening closely when he plays classical music with it
The Tefi sounds better. Will you marry me?
The LP With The RIAA Playback Curve Sounds Better
Do you have an mp3 rip of the LP version?
I don’t, sorry! I might consider it one day, if I could be sure it wasn’t a copyright issue.
I would hope someone here identified the explanation of the speed difference as simple. The motor in the Tefifon is designed to run at 230VAC 50hz. So unless you are providing AC frequency conversion to the Tefifon as well as 230VAC, its going to run fast at 230VAC 60hz.
Ben Elizando Except that Techmoan was using 50hz AC in the UK.
Since the Tefifon is a loop of finite plastic, I'm thinking it suffers the same time vs. tape length problem as 8 tracks do. In order to fit all the material on that loop, either the songs had to be edited or sped up. In this case, probably the latter. :)
senorverde09 I've never heard of this before... How and why was this done with 8 tracks? Surely if the loop could store X minutes, it would be easy enough to pick songs that total X minutes or less, no?
There were 100 minute 8-tracks I don’t see how that would be needed
@@zuperdee Consider a 40 minute album. A standard 8 track, with its 4 programs, would only need a 10 minute loop of tape. Once one program finishes the playback head would physically drop and play another pair of tracks on the same tape. This of course meant that you had to be careful with your song selection so that no song would be in the middle of playing when the loop reaches its end. Often times the song was faded out before the end of the loop, the player ker-chunked to the next program, and the song resumed. Or the songs were edited. Or rarely the songs were sped up a little. Why was this done? To save money.
Since the Tefifon is essentially a single groove occupying the finite width of a belt I think the manufactures sped up songs to get more onto a cartridge. After all, the bulk of Tefifon programming was compilations.
@@michaelhelgeland4588 Those were home recording cartridges. The bulk of commercial music 8 tracks tried to use as little tape as possible to save money. Hence the mid-song program changes and rearranged track listings.
LP has more bass