Is This Popular Hack Sabotaging Your Sourdough Baking?
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- If you want to improve as a sourdough baker then you should carefully consider whether to use a sample piece of dough to monitor the fermentation.
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I honestly use a square and clear container to bulk ferment and since I normally use one recipe on that container it permanently has the same line. So honestly it’s like the little jar in your video but using the whole dough. I get perfect fermentation each time!
You could do the mixing and bulk fermentation stages in a graduated container and easily know the amount the dough has increased. You're right, though, nothing beats experienced sight, smell and feel for knowing when the dough is ready.
I get what you are saying, though as a beginner baker, using a sample piece (provided it is big enough) is a great way to calibrate your senses to the rise of the bulk dough. I get to learn what 50, 75, 100% rise looks and feels like in bulk dough so in the future (hopefully) I wont need the sample.
If it's working for you that's great Ben. If you keep doing what you are doing you'll get used to the feel of the dough. One day you'll realise that your intuition has started to kick. Just try to be aware of what the bulk dough is doing in comparison to the sample.
Really appreciate how much time and effort you put into your videos. This one is very timely for me-I had a similar situation in my bulk fermentation container. I could see that the dough was changing, but it wasn’t rising. It never did rise above that first mark. WTH?! The problem was in the mark-I marked it at the initial high point, not realizing how domed the dough was because the container was so different. 🤦🏻♀️I can’t believe I need a video lesson on how to mark a line on a container!
I don't think you're the first Sandi, and I doubt you'll be the last, but I bet you won't do it again lol. I've got a book full of blunders, you're not alone :)
i agree 100% with learning how to read/judge your entire bulk fermented dough. ive helped a lot of new bakers who have struggled with that sample method not working well.
Hi there, although I've seen the sample practice in a few of your videos I have never really got around to put it in practice. You've very rightly stated that the touch and feel method is the best something with I've been doing and of course learning ever since I started making sourdough breads 4 years ago. I learn from every bake and can happily conclude that the touch and feel takes care of almost all variables like ambient temperature, inputs and so on.
I agree with a lot you said. The best is to have the experience to know when the dough is ready. I use the sample method as a ballpark. I don't knead much, I mix, autolyse, then do folds for a few times and after that leave the dough for bulk fermentation. I had a lot of problems with subpar oven spring and I attributed that to my new kitchen and therefor different appliances. Wrong - at the same time I got lazy with my starter and while the resulting bread was ok, it was just that. Only after getting the starter out of lazy mode to fully active again and watching the fermentation the result returned to pre-kitchen-remodel levels. So while the new appliances work differently, the main factor is always proper fermentation. So now I h ave the little sample as a ballpark because in winter it takes very long and in summer it's really speedy, so I have an indication. I don't go by the sample, but it gives me a rough estimate where the fermentation stands. For that it's good
That sounds like a great use for this method :)
After a year of sourdough baking, I do development some sense to see whether the dough is ready along with muscle memory to how the dough feel like when touch on each stretch and fold. The problem is, in the said year, my room temperature was around 28c due to the a/c and the bulk fermentation time usually took 6-7 hour. Then I moved to my new house where I don't have a/c in the kitchen anymore. The ambient temperature now is around 30-35 c (guess where am I), it now completely destroys my muscle memory of making dough as the dough acts differently when compared to the same timeframe as one before I moved. First loaf was under proofed when second was over proofed so I resorted back to this sample method just to figure out the right fermentation time and now I found out that it uses only 4 hours to ferment. Not wonder the first two were disaster.
I have seen the sample jar contents rise well after I had baked the bread. Also if you have a change of temperature during fermentation it screws things up big time between the two samples
The small jar is supposed to be kept in the bigger bowl of dough, so it's all at the same temp, and the external environment isn't affecting the small jar individually.
I think this is absolutely right. I found the sample method to really help me in the beginning but I don't use it anymore now that I'm on loaf 100 or so.
And there definitely are physical factors that would cause volume to increase in the sample at a different rate than the main. The shape of the sample container and the amount of it would certainly impact how the gas pressure inside affects volume. It's not as simple as PV = nRT. The surface area of the sample exposed to air vs glass, relative to the mass, would absolutely matter.
So if you do use the sample method you must be CONSISTENT in using the same container and sample size each time, and also don't just assume the expansion of both the sample and main are the same. Rather figure out how much sample rise equates to the amount of fermentation you want. Then it's just a gauge like any other.
Cheers for your reply Peter. I've been experimenting with using very low inoculations recently and I don't think that would suit the sampling method either. I don't think I would be able to distribute a 5% inoculation throughout the entire dough and be confident that both the sample and the bulk dough contained even a similar amount. I do think this can be helpful for beginners but it also helps to be aware of possible pitfalls.
Great info. Thanks. Regarding the sample, when it rises to the marks on the jar, there’s a domed height, which is away from the jar wall, and then there’s a lower “straight” height which hugs and grows alongside the wall of the jar (I hope you get the picture 😊). Which one best represents the actual dough growth in the jar?
What would happen if the sample jar was inserted into the bulk dough and could benefit from the same dough temperature?
I think the sampler is a great tool when first learning. But it does get affected by temps differently. It's a great little indicator like hey bread be ready soon
I have had good success with the dough sample but you have to be very careful that there are no temperature changes during the fermentation process, particularly if the sample is kept outside the bulk fermentation container since the temperature of the sample will fluctuate more rapidly than the larger dough piece. Also, it is critical that the starter be very uniformly distributed in the dough before extracting the sample. More or less starter in the sample will disproportionately affect the fermentation rate relative to the bulk dough. I would not want to have to use it with each loaf baked but if used carefully it can be very useful when trying to create a new recipe.
What is the make and model of the pH meter mentioned in the video?
From what I learned in Thermodynamics 101 class, it should be no surprise that the small and large samples behave differently even if stored in the same temperature environment. You should try monitoring the internal dough temp for the small sample vs. the larger sample as a function of time. I'm certain you'll be surprised.
I'd think the small sample would bulk quicker do to warming up faster
@@vincentlabruzzo5368 that was actually the opposite of what happened with my bulk fermentation this week! The sample in the glass jar hardly moved after 12 hours! It’s a strange thing! I was wondering if it was because my sample was in a glass jar with a slight piece of plastic over it, not covered fully and the bulk dough in a stainless steel bowl? Both sat on a wooden cutting board on the counter top surface. 🤔
Thanks for another interesting and educational videos! Good to see you back too.
Thank you! There's been lots of exciting stuff happening but I'm very happy to back :)
I use the jar method but i take a chunk just after mixing in shag mode.
I've had mixed results with the sample method. I think it has something to do with heat retention of a small piece (in a glass container) vs a bulk in a different container.
Feel, smell and size of the dough are enough reference for me. I know the size of my bowls, and I can eyeball the 75% growth mark (which I most often use) ok enough - it doesn't need to be exact. Tasting is something I mostly do with my starter. 😋
With all the respect for Hendrik - who seems to be a big advocate of this method - I've left it aside in my workflow.
You should try tasting the dough, it's an interesting addition to judging the fermentation. It's about what works for the individual at the end of the day, I think everyone's baking flow is different. But I do think it's important to get our hands on our dough and try to use our senses to help judge what's going on.
I've found a see-through bulking container to be ideal (as a novice baker). The 2.0l plastic IKEA 365+ container (code 992.690.80) is just right for my 900g-ish loaves and is only £4 in the UK. Marked with a white-board pen to judge the rise, which wipes off fairly easily.
Great points! Thank you!
Another mistake people make is using a container that the walls might be slightly flared outwards, and has no volume indicators. When the dough appears to have grown by 50%, it actually has done much more. I usually use a clear bulking container that has volume markings on the side so there’s no doubt about how much the dough has grown in volume. I usually bulk ferment to about 50% rise. On a hot summer day I’ll go 25-30% to try to avoid over-fermentation, because things can really take off in warm temperatures.
Thanks
The little sample sounds good but about the time you get it mastered your skill level at sourdough has developed (by practice) and the little sample's value is obsolete.
(you can however just fridge that little sample after using it and make it your next starter )
I used this a few days ago, when the sample finally doubled in size, my dough was completely over fermented, super sticky and impossible to save.
The main issue is whether the starter is uniformly incorporated before cutting the sample. If the sample has a less % of starter than main dough, you will over proof. If a higher % then under proof. I stopped using this method when I found a perfectly clear cylindrical hard plastic container large enough to hold a kilo of dough, doubled.
I use this method everytime, because then I can eat the sample as an delicious english muffin before the cold proof 🍞👌
Nice plan!
Hey Phillip I need your help! I've been baking your old faithful recipe for almost a year now and I've always been having good results except the last few very cold months(I'm in Athens as well). I get flat or gummy dough. I've tried the sample in a jar method, and it hadn't risen a bit in 24 hours..my sourdough is always active when I mix the recipe so I don't know what else can I do. I've tried wrapping the bowl with a heating pad but then the dough became very relaxed and it couldn't stay together, though fully risen. Any ideas or tips?
Hey there, it's been chilly here in Athens and it's possible your dough was stalling which is why you ended up with a flat gummy result. But it sounds like your dough was over-fermented or proofed when you used the heat mat. You need to strike a balance between the two. Try putting the heat mat in a cheap cool box and turn It into a DIY proofing box. Use a thermometer to check the temperature, somewhere around 25C works perfectly. It's warmed up here now so you should be able to ferment the successfully at room temperature.
@@CulinaryExploration Thanks for the reply Phillip, I'll give that a try and experiment more to reach that balance!
I've used this technique successfully, and I disagree that it's somehow inferior / sabotaging the process. It's just a quick / low-fidelity way of checking the progress of the dough. Especially when I have a busy day of meetings / work, I don't have time to really get intimate with the dough as you're describing it.
"Simpel Sourdough" pop a piece of the dough in a jar of water. When it floats, you're ready to shape.
For me, especially as a beginner at making sourdough bread. More variables=more problems.
What i found with this is that if you mix by hand and don't mix the dough properly you can end up with a piece that does not have the same amount of starter than the rest. I have waited for ages and never doubled and ended up over fermenting my dough. That's my experience anyway
I've never tried using a sample piece of dough, but with fifty years of working with yeasted dough, I find that there is no goof-proof way of judging when a dough is ready.
I was taught to go by sight, touch, and smell, everything else is just fine-tuning the process.
So why the small sample behaves differently than the main dough?
What boils first, a small pot of water, or a large pot of water? The volume changes the behaviour
@@alicedyment4219 only if there's huge difference of the external temperature/heat source.
If dough is room temp and stays in room temp, then volume should have nothing to do
@@alicedyment4219 and in the movie the small sample behaved totally opposite to your theory
Yep that little jar brought me to overferment
My biggest question is: why? I can just monitor my main piece of dough. It's not like a smoker, you can peak at the dough any time you want. This is a solution to a problem I don't have.
I constantly use slightly different dough mixtures for my bread, so the fermentation times vary a lot, and the only bulk ferment container i have is a metal bowl with rounded sides. So the sample dough in a glass with straight sides helps give me a indication. I don't use the sample as the only indicator, I also check the main dough.
I do not like this method. You have to make sure the your dough temperature is exactly the same as the environment that you bulk ferment in. If you use warm water to mixture your dough and your bulk fermentation environment is cooler than you initial dough temperature then the sample will cool quicker because it has less mass. Conversely, if you use a dough proofer that is set to a higher temperature then your initial dough temperature then the sample will warm up quicker. Both scenarios mean your sample will ferment at a different rate to your main dough.
Perhaps you would have gotten more reliable results if you hadn't poked down the dough in the jar. Basically, you flattened it and knocked all the air out of it.
Interesting point. I don’t think it would be possible to deliver equal pressure to the bulk dough and the sample. In addition the dough was at the beginning of the fermentation process so hadn’t increased in volume.