It's not far from 35:00 14nm "Toshiba DRAM" at least for Intel, and 7,5,3nm are basically still variation of these 14nm stuff, distances between fins are still quite large ~50-40nm i lost touch when AMD Ryzen came out there is some progress but now it's more of optimizing costs. And putting more layers stack these on top of each other. Make masks for product it takes ~500mln masks are difused as well and there are dozens different layers multiple steps. If US continue to push war against China / Taiwan we might have more time to catch up ;)
@@preysan What? We are stuck (most compenies) at exact same tech in 2023 as we had 2010-2013. Let me explain why and what changed what not (what i know). For regular planar transistor minimum size is 28nm. Both bulk and SOI (silicon on insulator) there was attempt to make 22nm but size of gate is too small and parameters of such transistors was not optimal. It's highly optimized even using 192nm light few steps, masks. I don't know precisely but let's say 30 steps, 1month to make chip. So cheap transistors are 28nm bulk, 32nm SOI just like we had in 2010. Still used to make microcontrollers and stuff. To make 22nm,14nm, 12nm FinFETs both Intel, TSMC, GF and Samsung used 192nm light. But transistor is vertical and it takes 100 masks to manufacture let's say 3 months to make single wafer of chips. I heard it takes total 8months from final desing in EDA /CAD to real chip - because of how complicated it become. Some companies including Chinease SMIC tried to make 10nm, 7nm, 5nm using 192nm light it takes anormous number of masks all have to be calculated it takes months on GPU powered math centers then takes months to make. To prepare manufacturing of single design they say it cost 500mln dolar alon. In FLASH memory and RAM main progress was to put on layers on top of each other. We are now making 128x layers. Intel and Micron - Optane tried to make as much in one process others are stacking like sandwitches. RAM im not sure what is now but not long time ago was made 19nm then 14nm it's technology. So basically what was shown on presentation. STACKING allowed us to have more and more capacity. When it comes to AMD they are able to cut costs by mixing processes. Still making some chips 14nm, 12nm while cores are 5nm 4nm but these are possible thanks to TSMC cooperation with ZEISS German and ASML - Dutch to finally create EUV 10nm light based machine. It's revolution, exceptional revolution took 20 years actually to finally replace 192nm UV. You can't use same chemicals, and vacum makes lot of problems. And thanks for that was possible to make distance between transistors smaller - smaller than 50nm wide, 100nm long and this is how they managed to pack more and more. Not by making transistors smaller but mostly making distances between transistors smaller. There are attempts to make GaaFET probably 2,3,4nm are made such way. Almost like FinFET but not solid vertical but split in 3 parts. As you could see on presentation. RAM - 80% of surface of RAM is actually analog all these voltage pumps regulators ,interfaces. Less and less it's memory itself but even if it needs good insulation and size to hold charge. What changed - we are STACKING LAYERS one on top of other. Or puting small chips on top of interposer or thin PCB and connect together like never before. I know NVidia made huge chips around 19bln transistors or so. But that is rare - possible mosly thanks to ASML EUV 10nm and TSMC. Intel struggled to make such technolgoy for decade they stuk 14nm for years trying to make 10nm cheap using 192nm light instead. But that cost them tons of money. Chinese SIMC was sanctioned - they cannot purchase ASML machines.USA sanctioned China. SMIC managed to make 14nm and even 5nm using 192nm UV but imagine 150x masks vs 30x masks it 5x more time and costs. So they abandoned will focus to increase capacity old bulk plain MOSFET transistors on 28nm. They have lot of clients. Chips are mass produced in 28nm. Some chips still made 40nm, 65nm and bigger. High power electronics can't be made small would be waste of money to use 28nm machinery. So most companies some in India are using for example old 65,90nm - 15-20 years old. Chips are smaller, indeed NVidia, Apple, AMD are capable to waste 1bln dolar on new design, but small companies stuck in 2010. I remember Buldozer was made 32nm SOI just like last IBM PowerPC's and AMD LLano was 28nm bulk. It's still in use. Era of Moore's Law from perspective of entire industry was over around 2010. It is no longer less and less expensive to make step forward. So most companies stuck in 2010. Some are letting 14nm GF and TSMC is making these. Exceptions 7,5,4nm are huge companies capable to move forward AMD, NVIdia. This is why IMO presenation pretty much describes current reality. Sorry i had to - this is how i see it :D
@@leezhieng To be fair, neither 7nm nor 2nm actually have 7nm or 2nm transistors, respectively. It became an "as-if" measure as the actual 3D structure of the transistors and the gates they build got a bit too complicated for marketing :) Nowadays, x nm refers to a peak transistor density (yay marketing), rather than actual feature size - and even that's a marketing lie. The next time you think about why Intel's fabs are "so behind" the cutting edge in nanometers, that's part of the reason. For example, Intel's 10nm chips actually have a higher peak density than TSMC's 7nm chips, and twice as much as Samsung's 10nm chips. The IBM 2nm chip? You might expect three to nine times the density if you assumed it refers to the size of the transistors or minimum feature size or something. In reality, the peak transistor density is only 40% higher than Intel's 7nm. Just like back in the day, comparing chips from different manufacturers based on their listed characteristics (like TDP, clock rate, "nm"...) is essentially pointless. And then you learn that Intel is backporting its 10nm architectures to 14nm for... reasons. Chip making is complicated. Even without MBAs in engineering roles and retarded marketing.
This lets me see my Digital Logic textbook in a whole new light. Every individual logic gate is an impressive feat of (close enough to) perfectly replicated engineering.
It was a bit of a surprise to me just how much transistors aren't logic gates when I built my first homemade CPU from discrete transistors (ages ago). Suddenly, all those "spare" transistors in logic gate and circuit designs made sense - a "gate" that works fine on its own no longer worked in combination with another "gate". Funnily enough, all it took to start thinking about "electricity flows" rather than digital logic to make it really click - the lower level works really different from the higher level, even though they look deceptively similar (and even seem to be working, to a point!). It makes perfect sense thinking about transistors like switches, and then, when you start thinking about the flows, you realize... hey, this is flowing backwards! And these are shorted out!
It was great how you said you wish you could learn how Intel makes it's newer gates and share it with everyone. You had a great presentation. Thanks for sharing/spreading your interest with us all.
Logic is literally orders of magnitude harder than DRAM. I don't know if you have noticed, but DRAM just stores bits, so it is the same cell copied billions of times. It doesn't even matter if one doesn't work because you can insert redundancy. Logic is harder in every way.
TheProCactus Actually not quite. DRAM uses 1 transistor and 1 capacitor, while logic is for the most part just transistors. Except for Samsung, most foundries don't produce DRAM.
witeken i wouldn't call DRAM easy. It's a different kind of challenge altogether. Yes, dram reuses cells many many times, but arguably processors do this as well. Sure, designing a memory array and decoder from a floorplan perspective isn't as complex, and the tolerances on logic chips are somewhat stricter, the difficulty with DRAM is a manufacturing and financial challenge. The dram industry is incredibly cut-throat and competitive, with low profit margins : as a manufacturer selling an 8GB ddr4 module, you have to fit about south of 100 BILLION transistors onto a module and sell it for less than 50$ to an end consumer, AND you have a couple watts to do it. The memory guys are greatly under-appreciated
It was a good talk. Only nerds like us would quibble about which particular particle is actually flipping bits. It didn't affect the talk quality in any way.
You're right, i noticed a few small errors in his talk. Human hair width is in the double-digit micrometer range, not nanometer. Also at 49:35 the slide reads 450nm, where he meant 450mm. Cool talk!
Amazing stuff, indistinguishable from magic a good title. What a great peek at the nanotechnology that drives all our devices and modern world as a whole. How small can we go?! That quantum/wave interference effects must be considered in the functioning of these tiny devices...crazy man! And this was 10 years ago. What's the latest now?
Will be interesting to see what comes after the transistors, just like the transistor made the vacuum tube obsolete, some new tech will soon make transistor obselete, will be insane!
@@fiberrs1 Yes but that´s is not a major problem at this size and can be mitigated. In fact, quantum-tunneling effects are actively used even in bigger structures. Just google "Flash Memory Quantum Tunneling". You will see that every USB-Stick or SSD depends on this effect. Quantum Tunneling is a useful tool in computing.
The whole transistors not being digital thing really messes with non-electronics people. I still encounter folks that think they've been ripped off because the amplifier they bought as "100% analog" has some IC chips in it.
But that's just it, your old computer is literally rubbish. Its CPU is a square centimeter of sand. Its what it represents, or in this case what it did represent, which fast forward 10 years is superseded by magnitudes what a modern square centimeter of sand can accomplish. In material cost, even when it was created it was only worth 5 cents.
The material may be only 5 cents but the equipment and technology that was required to turn this small piece of sand into a working chip is worth billions of dollars, and years of work hours by some of the best minds humanity can offer.
I would imagine he's signed one or two NDAs, and while he's talking about publicly available info. I could see some suits saying hello to their lawyers if he didn't ask beforehand.
I just wanna casually walk into a FAB with a Rigid shop vac I just used to clean a house where they finished sanding the drywall, and let that thing rip, and then be like "aww shit, I left the filter out."
I'm a person who likes to understand how things really work. CPU really bothers me. A modern transistor really bothers me. The things we can do with a computer bothers me - because I really cannot fully understand the 'magic' behind it eventho I've been working with computers since I was 9.
i still dont get how a transistor works, what sends the message for it to go on or off?
4 года назад+1
@@morrisl7 the initial charge is sent through a gate, from its original terminal, that allows for the charge to be turned on and off.. Before it connects to its final destination.. That is what a transistor is... a gate controlled electrical charge.
I know I'm replying to a year old comment, but if you're having this problem you're starting at the wrong place Transistors are 99% of the time simplified to electrical switches because it makes understanding them much easier than starting out with "This enhancement mode MOSFET operates in saturation mode and can therefore only conduct 10A if there's a voltage difference between the gate and the source of 9 and a voltage difference between the drain and the source of 12 which it can reach within 30ns if there's only 0,1 ohms of electrical resistance, 1 pico henry in the lead and 10 femto farad of capatiance" or what have you Point is that you should take it slow and start in an easy place like logic gates, karnaugh maps, binary etc. and then probably move onto transistor level gates and how they're actually made
Devil magic, plain and simple. Everything else is mumbo jumbo. Computers were a "gift" given to man by the devil as a reward for re-establishing his throne in the early 1950s.
Video card I'm using to watch this video uses 7 nm transistors. And they're commercially reaching 5nm transistors. Back then 12, 13 nm was still the future to come. Lord did technology advance or what.
They don't show us this in university, we have to learn 8086 architecture and memorize it... are you getting this? I have to memorize architecture of an ancient processor... I understand, I would appreciate if teachers just mention 8086 and even how it works but just briefly. It's hard for me to waste my time understanding it in depth as a SOFTWARE engineer...
Newer processors function on the same principles as the 8086. Good thing about the 86 is that it is simple enough to _understand_ and this understanding applies to _all_ CPUs ever since (except maybe the weird ones like adiabatic logic processors)
That 18 month "cheaper to buy new ones" observation is probably why office grade budgets are overblown and ran by people still with AOL adresses, and constantly closing and opening under new shell titles.
People in the semiconductor industry always draw the OR comparison. But it’s totally misleading. Only the “sterile field” is clean (anything green or blue). Every other surface in the room is by definition contaminated. All the extra people in the room other than the surgeons (up to 3) anesthesia team (up to two) and scrub nurse, are there to eliminate contact between the two. The reason there is no reason to be that clean is sub micron particles are not infectious. Organic molecules are huge. Minimum meaningful size is Hundreds of thousands of atoms. So it’s already many times larger than a silicon channel. The vast majority of things organic do not survive in the air. To survive in the “air” said bacterium or virus needs the equivalent of steel girders inside to hold it together- much like a space capsule remaining pressurized in space. Imagine riding a random vehicle from earth into space- you would die riding 99.999% of them. Bacteria are the same. COVID probably is airborne, though the ones that survive this trip are much weaker, so airborne spread is much less common despite the greater spread area. So for most things you only have to worry about spray. Bodily fluids. If someone had something airborne then you had to take airborne precautions and then it was much more like an early fab. Bunny suits, positive pressure ORs (or negative pressure if it’s nasty). ORs are like anything else. You create them depending on your requirements but not really much beyond because the economics aren’t there. Airborne precautions were fairly rare when I was in the OR daily (pre covid I don’t know what it’s like now. )
16:05 "...Immersion lithography ... Intel's doing this now, WOW! Basically we're taking advantage of the effect you get when you try 'n throw a rock at something in a pond - it misses - [because] water has a very different index of refraction then air." *Uhhhwwhaaathefff?* 17:43 "Intel just invested $1 billion getting this to work" ASML was surely only too happy to sell them this "one off" [18.27] 'Extreme UV' Computational Litho. Dev. Rig/tool.. 18:40 "in 10, 15 hopefully 5 years or we're in trouble." *I'll take Forbearing Statements for 5 or trouble, Alex. ;]*
So do manufacturers even make money at all from consumer grade procs? It's hard to see how they could considering everything. I always wondered why enterprise procs costed tens of thousands of dollars. Obviously they are better / less error prone / etc, but are they really a hundred times more expensive better? Now i'm guessing this is how they manage to make consumer grades affordable.
they do, otherwise they wouldn't exist... all you have to do is use google for 30 seconds and find out intel has a net income of 21 billion dollars in 2019
@@r3d0c So what? That doesn't automatically mean that they make money on consumer grade products, and certainly doesn't preclude them from existence. The majority of that 21 billion dollar net income very probably comes from enterprise products (like servers, licensing agreements, etc). These types of things cost tens of thousands of dollars per unit. Inflating these prices would allow consumer grade processors to be manufactured and sold at a very slim margin.
I love the hacker community. They somehow find a way to explain shit. I don't know how they do it , but we're like on the same wavelength or something.
This presentation is really insightful, but it suffers from a presentation style I like to call "Are you impressed yet?!" - where the speaker says something like. What you see there, that's light oscillating...... lol shyeah." It really gets in the way from an otherwise great presentation.
+mario gonzalez (Onedayitwillmake) I'm sure there were a few stunned faces in that crowd when they heard it was photon oscillation causing etching imperfections on a scale that made such a huge difference. I know I was certainly impressed at the improvement.
What a gem. This video deserves way more upvotes. Its SAD how a drunk cat video shown stumbling on a slippery polished wood floor gets *millions* of likes meanwhile, a highly educated guy's hour+ lecture barely has a few thousand upvotes 🤓😲
That's what happens when common folks are 'entitled/take for granted' sophisticated technology. Technology should be privileged for scientific minded people who are watching this video.
After watching this I am going to turn my light switch off and guess what? It is off. Zero current flow.. We may be smaller and faster but we have not made a switch better. Keep that in perspective.
there will still be a current that flows.. look up capacitors (have a look at the old variable ones too!). if there's a current that can flow between those plates, then current can flow between your switch's plates too
That's is an awesomely nerdy joke, however the (current) audience don't seem to appreciate (ti)! ti = Texas Instruments, man you kill a joke when you have to explain it!
@@fedzalicious his accomplishments have nothing to do with the talk. I think you have a serious misunderstanding about not only this talk, but where it took place and who the audience was I also have a master's and I specifically make sure to about high level language when talking to laymen because otherwise they won't know what I'm talking about You're weird
I prefer the original: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE from magic" -- Arthur C. Clark, “Profiles of the Future: An Inquiry into the Limits of the Possible,” 1962. Incidentally, if you're using his idea, you might consider avoiding Plagiarism with a citation.
+Nicholas Juntilla Yes there are, without transistors, nothing of modern age would remotely work, so they are very important, for medicine, energy production, food processing and transport.
I couldn't agree with you. Physics of chip manufacturing is simple on first glance or rather complicated on second thought. Both concepts are unsuitable for presentation. However, there are lots of engineering tricks which helps industry to overcome physical restrictions of conventional lithography.
@@Tridd666 thanks for giving me such a strong unexpected laugh, I never would have imagined such dialogue on a video like this to exist and to prove so apt, because your observational skills have produced the best unexpected burn I've seen all year!
Even though it's from 2012, I found this one of the best videos on process that I've seen yet.
Mind blowing up magic...
the "FOUP" video was absolutely beautiful xD especially the commentary that went with it
I'd kill for a 2022 version of this.
It's not far from 35:00 14nm "Toshiba DRAM" at least for Intel, and 7,5,3nm are basically still variation of these 14nm stuff, distances between fins are still quite large ~50-40nm i lost touch when AMD Ryzen came out there is some progress but now it's more of optimizing costs. And putting more layers stack these on top of each other. Make masks for product it takes ~500mln masks are difused as well and there are dozens different layers multiple steps. If US continue to push war against China / Taiwan we might have more time to catch up ;)
@@KabelkowyJoe2023 😳
@@preysan What? We are stuck (most compenies) at exact same tech in 2023 as we had 2010-2013. Let me explain why and what changed what not (what i know). For regular planar transistor minimum size is 28nm. Both bulk and SOI (silicon on insulator) there was attempt to make 22nm but size of gate is too small and parameters of such transistors was not optimal. It's highly optimized even using 192nm light few steps, masks. I don't know precisely but let's say 30 steps, 1month to make chip. So cheap transistors are 28nm bulk, 32nm SOI just like we had in 2010. Still used to make microcontrollers and stuff. To make 22nm,14nm, 12nm FinFETs both Intel, TSMC, GF and Samsung used 192nm light. But transistor is vertical and it takes 100 masks to manufacture let's say 3 months to make single wafer of chips. I heard it takes total 8months from final desing in EDA /CAD to real chip - because of how complicated it become. Some companies including Chinease SMIC tried to make 10nm, 7nm, 5nm using 192nm light it takes anormous number of masks all have to be calculated it takes months on GPU powered math centers then takes months to make. To prepare manufacturing of single design they say it cost 500mln dolar alon. In FLASH memory and RAM main progress was to put on layers on top of each other. We are now making 128x layers. Intel and Micron - Optane tried to make as much in one process others are stacking like sandwitches. RAM im not sure what is now but not long time ago was made 19nm then 14nm it's technology. So basically what was shown on presentation. STACKING allowed us to have more and more capacity.
When it comes to AMD they are able to cut costs by mixing processes. Still making some chips 14nm, 12nm while cores are 5nm 4nm but these are possible thanks to TSMC cooperation with ZEISS German and ASML - Dutch to finally create EUV 10nm light based machine. It's revolution, exceptional revolution took 20 years actually to finally replace 192nm UV. You can't use same chemicals, and vacum makes lot of problems. And thanks for that was possible to make distance between transistors smaller - smaller than 50nm wide, 100nm long and this is how they managed to pack more and more. Not by making transistors smaller but mostly making distances between transistors smaller. There are attempts to make GaaFET probably 2,3,4nm are made such way. Almost like FinFET but not solid vertical but split in 3 parts. As you could see on presentation.
RAM - 80% of surface of RAM is actually analog all these voltage pumps regulators ,interfaces. Less and less it's memory itself but even if it needs good insulation and size to hold charge. What changed - we are STACKING LAYERS one on top of other. Or puting small chips on top of interposer or thin PCB and connect together like never before. I know NVidia made huge chips around 19bln transistors or so. But that is rare - possible mosly thanks to ASML EUV 10nm and TSMC. Intel struggled to make such technolgoy for decade they stuk 14nm for years trying to make 10nm cheap using 192nm light instead. But that cost them tons of money. Chinese SIMC was sanctioned - they cannot purchase ASML machines.USA sanctioned China. SMIC managed to make 14nm and even 5nm using 192nm UV but imagine 150x masks vs 30x masks it 5x more time and costs. So they abandoned will focus to increase capacity old bulk plain MOSFET transistors on 28nm. They have lot of clients. Chips are mass produced in 28nm. Some chips still made 40nm, 65nm and bigger. High power electronics can't be made small would be waste of money to use 28nm machinery. So most companies some in India are using for example old 65,90nm - 15-20 years old.
Chips are smaller, indeed NVidia, Apple, AMD are capable to waste 1bln dolar on new design, but small companies stuck in 2010. I remember Buldozer was made 32nm SOI just like last IBM PowerPC's and AMD LLano was 28nm bulk. It's still in use. Era of Moore's Law from perspective of entire industry was over around 2010. It is no longer less and less expensive to make step forward. So most companies stuck in 2010. Some are letting 14nm GF and TSMC is making these. Exceptions 7,5,4nm are huge companies capable to move forward AMD, NVIdia. This is why IMO presenation pretty much describes current reality.
Sorry i had to - this is how i see it :D
@@KabelkowyJoe Holy shit 🤣, Bro If you want to say something, just do it
@@KabelkowyJoe I took time to read it, but thanks a lot
This is a cool talk. In 2019, seven years later, EUV is now actually being used in some fabs.
...and I'm watching this on a computer where CPU is on a 7nm architecture.
@@TheBatracho and I'm watching this after IBM announced they have invented 2nm chips...
@@leezhieng To be fair, neither 7nm nor 2nm actually have 7nm or 2nm transistors, respectively. It became an "as-if" measure as the actual 3D structure of the transistors and the gates they build got a bit too complicated for marketing :) Nowadays, x nm refers to a peak transistor density (yay marketing), rather than actual feature size - and even that's a marketing lie. The next time you think about why Intel's fabs are "so behind" the cutting edge in nanometers, that's part of the reason. For example, Intel's 10nm chips actually have a higher peak density than TSMC's 7nm chips, and twice as much as Samsung's 10nm chips. The IBM 2nm chip? You might expect three to nine times the density if you assumed it refers to the size of the transistors or minimum feature size or something. In reality, the peak transistor density is only 40% higher than Intel's 7nm. Just like back in the day, comparing chips from different manufacturers based on their listed characteristics (like TDP, clock rate, "nm"...) is essentially pointless. And then you learn that Intel is backporting its 10nm architectures to 14nm for... reasons.
Chip making is complicated. Even without MBAs in engineering roles and retarded marketing.
Daaang you are proper smart AF.. impressive. I should have stayed in school.. well I guess I missed the smart train.
This is the practical application of alchemy.
Basically sand into gold
Guiding lightning through crystals
Literally
Carbon into diamond
EUV is now used, so well done engineers and scientists!
This lets me see my Digital Logic textbook in a whole new light. Every individual logic gate is an impressive feat of (close enough to) perfectly replicated engineering.
It was a bit of a surprise to me just how much transistors aren't logic gates when I built my first homemade CPU from discrete transistors (ages ago). Suddenly, all those "spare" transistors in logic gate and circuit designs made sense - a "gate" that works fine on its own no longer worked in combination with another "gate". Funnily enough, all it took to start thinking about "electricity flows" rather than digital logic to make it really click - the lower level works really different from the higher level, even though they look deceptively similar (and even seem to be working, to a point!). It makes perfect sense thinking about transistors like switches, and then, when you start thinking about the flows, you realize... hey, this is flowing backwards! And these are shorted out!
It was great how you said you wish you could learn how Intel makes it's newer gates and share it with everyone. You had a great presentation. Thanks for sharing/spreading your interest with us all.
I will never complain about CPU prices again.
fuel should be more than 10 the price for its cost.
Logic is literally orders of magnitude harder than DRAM. I don't know if you have noticed, but DRAM just stores bits, so it is the same cell copied billions of times. It doesn't even matter if one doesn't work because you can insert redundancy. Logic is harder in every way.
witeken
not every way !. The construction is exactly the same
TheProCactus Actually not quite. DRAM uses 1 transistor and 1 capacitor, while logic is for the most part just transistors. Except for Samsung, most foundries don't produce DRAM.
witeken i wouldn't call DRAM easy. It's a different kind of challenge altogether. Yes, dram reuses cells many many times, but arguably processors do this as well.
Sure, designing a memory array and decoder from a floorplan perspective isn't as complex, and the tolerances on logic chips are somewhat stricter, the difficulty with DRAM is a manufacturing and financial challenge.
The dram industry is incredibly cut-throat and competitive, with low profit margins : as a manufacturer selling an 8GB ddr4 module, you have to fit about south of 100 BILLION transistors onto a module and sell it for less than 50$ to an end consumer, AND you have a couple watts to do it.
The memory guys are greatly under-appreciated
has there ever been an updated version of this presentation?
Totally superb video, excellently explained. 100%, top marks mate.
Slide 15 with the refractive "Lithography equipment advances" the left image is the beginning of the need for a metalenz.
It was a good talk. Only nerds like us would quibble about which particular particle is actually flipping bits. It didn't affect the talk quality in any way.
You're right, i noticed a few small errors in his talk. Human hair width is in the double-digit micrometer range, not nanometer. Also at 49:35 the slide reads 450nm, where he meant 450mm.
Cool talk!
He says a human hair is 40 microns, what's the error?
@@radeklew1 None, just another "know-it-all" so common in the youtube comment section. Dumb useless fuckers.
Oh now that I watch that part again, he does say 40nm just before that timestamp, my bad. I think in another part he said the right number
@@astrolillo wtf u sound just like one of them, chill out
Amazing stuff, indistinguishable from magic a good title. What a great peek at the nanotechnology that drives all our devices and modern world as a whole. How small can we go?! That quantum/wave interference effects must be considered in the functioning of these tiny devices...crazy man! And this was 10 years ago. What's the latest now?
Lol at 15:14 "...this one is copy righted, I'm using it anyways..."
Guy on bottom right pull up his camera and takes a photo.
Amazing talk! Thanks for sharing Andor! And thank you Jebnor from the EEVblog forum for bringing this to my attention. An hour well spent.
Anywhere I can find the PDF of this presentation? it's kinda hard to see what's going on the screen
It's interesting to hear about EUV from the 2012 perspective
Will be interesting to see what comes after the transistors, just like the transistor made the vacuum tube obsolete, some new tech will soon make transistor obselete, will be insane!
When?
51:30 "(EUV) IT WILL NEVER WORK!"
WELL 10YEARS LATER IT WORKED! HELLO FROM THE FUTURE.
When are we going to get an updated version of this?
This is close maybe
ruclips.net/video/dX9CGRZwD-w/видео.htmlsi=KZCEnoho9Ryhy04j
Yeah... About that "Intel 7nm in 2017"...
A bit optimistic.
Is it even possible, doesn't quantum tunneling starts to take effect at this level?
@@fiberrs1 Yes but that´s is not a major problem at this size and can be mitigated. In fact, quantum-tunneling effects are actively used even in bigger structures. Just google "Flash Memory Quantum Tunneling". You will see that every USB-Stick or SSD depends on this effect. Quantum Tunneling is a useful tool in computing.
@@minimalmo I never knew that, TIL, thanks
14nm+++++ in 2020
Wow I'm watching this in 2020, and EUV it's an actual thing now! Wow...
What was the last question?
Justin Bell What are the ecological implications of manufacturing
The whole transistors not being digital thing really messes with non-electronics people. I still encounter folks that think they've been ripped off because the amplifier they bought as "100% analog" has some IC chips in it.
"All chips are analog" can really confuse people.
Well there's a "DIGITAL" badge across the grill of my bookshelf stereo speakers so they must be digital, right...😆
We need follow up for this
The predictions were very very accurate.
Silane and sarin are two completely different molecules. (19:50)
Very cool talk. Thanks. At the very end: "I don't know. It scares me." What does?
"May 2012 Intel is doing 7nm R&D" And here in 2021 they are still chasing that 7mn dream
(APPLAUSE)
Awesome, man.
Next time you throw your old computer in the recycle bin, think of this video.
But that's just it, your old computer is literally rubbish. Its CPU is a square centimeter of sand. Its what it represents, or in this case what it did represent, which fast forward 10 years is superseded by magnitudes what a modern square centimeter of sand can accomplish. In material cost, even when it was created it was only worth 5 cents.
The material may be only 5 cents but the equipment and technology that was required to turn this small piece of sand into a working chip is worth billions of dollars, and years of work hours by some of the best minds humanity can offer.
5 cents for a wafer cut in how many pieces? 10.000? maybe 100k
@@florin604 Try 10's of billions... Maybe 100's if you're reading this from the future!
Wow, thanks for sharing
Ι have not understand why Atomic Layer Deposition is used?
watching this on my 7nm AMD CPU, FTW!
Does anybody have a mirror for those slides?
Very fun watch, but now I'm more interested in how he got permission to give the talk.
I'm guessing from his initial disclaimer that he's not giving away trade secrets.
@@MikeDrop136 I meant it would be nice to hear a bit more of the story behind getting permission.
@@choggi Permission from who?
I would imagine he's signed one or two NDAs, and while he's talking about publicly available info. I could see some suits saying hello to their lawyers if he didn't ask beforehand.
Everything they said is very much public information
Does anyone know where to get the slides?
www.toddfernandezinc.com/about/about-todd-fernandez/hope-number-nine
at the bottom of the page are the Google Slides.
I just wanna casually walk into a FAB with a Rigid shop vac I just used to clean a house where they finished sanding the drywall, and let that thing rip, and then be like "aww shit, I left the filter out."
I'm a person who likes to understand how things really work. CPU really bothers me. A modern transistor really bothers me. The things we can do with a computer bothers me - because I really cannot fully understand the 'magic' behind it eventho I've been working with computers since I was 9.
i still dont get how a transistor works, what sends the message for it to go on or off?
@@morrisl7 the initial charge is sent through a gate, from its original terminal, that allows for the charge to be turned on and off.. Before it connects to its final destination.. That is what a transistor is... a gate controlled electrical charge.
I know I'm replying to a year old comment, but if you're having this problem you're starting at the wrong place
Transistors are 99% of the time simplified to electrical switches because it makes understanding them much easier than starting out with "This enhancement mode MOSFET operates in saturation mode and can therefore only conduct 10A if there's a voltage difference between the gate and the source of 9 and a voltage difference between the drain and the source of 12 which it can reach within 30ns if there's only 0,1 ohms of electrical resistance, 1 pico henry in the lead and 10 femto farad of capatiance" or what have you
Point is that you should take it slow and start in an easy place like logic gates, karnaugh maps, binary etc. and then probably move onto transistor level gates and how they're actually made
Devil magic, plain and simple. Everything else is mumbo jumbo. Computers were a "gift" given to man by the devil as a reward for re-establishing his throne in the early 1950s.
Video card I'm using to watch this video uses 7 nm transistors. And they're commercially reaching 5nm transistors. Back then 12, 13 nm was still the future to come. Lord did technology advance or what.
thank you for sharing ... this was helpful
7 nanometer now, but good morning quantique problems
They don't show us this in university, we have to learn 8086 architecture and memorize it... are you getting this? I have to memorize architecture of an ancient processor... I understand, I would appreciate if teachers just mention 8086 and even how it works but just briefly. It's hard for me to waste my time understanding it in depth as a SOFTWARE engineer...
Same :(
Newer processors function on the same principles as the 8086. Good thing about the 86 is that it is simple enough to _understand_ and this understanding applies to _all_ CPUs ever since (except maybe the weird ones like adiabatic logic processors)
That 18 month "cheaper to buy new ones" observation is probably why office grade budgets are overblown and ran by people still with AOL adresses, and constantly closing and opening under new shell titles.
Very cool
I thought the problem with solar radiation errors was not neutrinos but muons?
Thankyou for blowing me mind. :D
I'm still waiting to hear that some big tech giant is developing product in micro-gravity.
And this is 10 years old. What do they have now?
People in the semiconductor industry always draw the OR comparison. But it’s totally misleading. Only the “sterile field” is clean (anything green or blue). Every other surface in the room is by definition contaminated. All the extra people in the room other than the surgeons (up to 3) anesthesia team (up to two) and scrub nurse, are there to eliminate contact between the two. The reason there is no reason to be that clean is sub micron particles are not infectious. Organic molecules are huge. Minimum meaningful size is Hundreds of thousands of atoms. So it’s already many times larger than a silicon channel. The vast majority of things organic do not survive in the air. To survive in the “air” said bacterium or virus needs the equivalent of steel girders inside to hold it together- much like a space capsule remaining pressurized in space. Imagine riding a random vehicle from earth into space- you would die riding 99.999% of them. Bacteria are the same. COVID probably is airborne, though the ones that survive this trip are much weaker, so airborne spread is much less common despite the greater spread area. So for most things you only have to worry about spray. Bodily fluids. If someone had something airborne then you had to take airborne precautions and then it was much more like an early fab. Bunny suits, positive pressure ORs (or negative pressure if it’s nasty). ORs are like anything else. You create them depending on your requirements but not really much beyond because the economics aren’t there. Airborne precautions were fairly rare when I was in the OR daily (pre covid I don’t know what it’s like now. )
Oh *Operating Room.* I was reading OR as in logical ||or (like instead of &&and). Interesting comment, thx!
16:05 "...Immersion lithography ... Intel's doing this now, WOW! Basically we're taking advantage of the effect you get when you try 'n throw a rock at something in a pond - it misses - [because] water has a very different index of refraction then air."
*Uhhhwwhaaathefff?*
17:43 "Intel just invested $1 billion getting this to work"
ASML was surely only too happy to sell them this "one off" [18.27] 'Extreme UV' Computational Litho. Dev. Rig/tool.. 18:40 "in 10, 15 hopefully 5 years or we're in trouble." *I'll take Forbearing Statements for 5 or trouble, Alex. ;]*
awesome
So do manufacturers even make money at all from consumer grade procs? It's hard to see how they could considering everything. I always wondered why enterprise procs costed tens of thousands of dollars. Obviously they are better / less error prone / etc, but are they really a hundred times more expensive better? Now i'm guessing this is how they manage to make consumer grades affordable.
they do, otherwise they wouldn't exist... all you have to do is use google for 30 seconds and find out intel has a net income of 21 billion dollars in 2019
@@r3d0c So what? That doesn't automatically mean that they make money on consumer grade products, and certainly doesn't preclude them from existence. The majority of that 21 billion dollar net income very probably comes from enterprise products (like servers, licensing agreements, etc). These types of things cost tens of thousands of dollars per unit. Inflating these prices would allow consumer grade processors to be manufactured and sold at a very slim margin.
Thank You :) QC
What is the last guy's question which is supposedly scary?
How looks the future right now in 2022??
🤵2019-. this has to be the best in debt video of how Silicon chips are made not seen this anywhere 2019 yet :) 👋👍 i feel silly & not coned
*depth
I love how my transistor is 15 nm (or 25, i am not sure), and i think that 30 nm is too large XD.
Now go watch a video from 1967. Huge process difference.
Haha - I just came from that one!
Mystery transistor science theater 3000 😂
Great talk, presenter got on my nerves a bit but the slides were very informative
1 billion dollar investment into asmr, intel u brave
this dudes inner demon is making him blink, and i guess its very painfull.
The nerds are inheriting the earth!
24:50 big foups, big oops
in the future i will goto McBitSAllign, and Order; atom's assemble molecules align.
im getting a "nuemi"
wow
Witches used hex bags, Programmers use hex files !
Indistinguishable from magic? Try to tell that to the program manager!
I love the hacker community. They somehow find a way to explain shit. I don't know how they do it , but we're like on the same wavelength or something.
54:21 - baal labs. Building the AI Antichrist
Exactly
😱
Weird comment about xylene being developed as a nerve gas...that's definitely not true.
Don't show silly graphics. Show how you make a transistor.
It's a secret
You are so lucky.
if neutrinos are a problem, then we got a problem.
I'm waiting for bio technology , much more effective an simpler to use...
funny how this is a modern talk about transistors but seems to be filmed on a potato from 1800's
Aah, well he's got a point there then;-)
This presentation is really insightful, but it suffers from a presentation style I like to call "Are you impressed yet?!" - where the speaker says something like. What you see there, that's light oscillating...... lol shyeah."
It really gets in the way from an otherwise great presentation.
+mario gonzalez (Onedayitwillmake) I'm sure there were a few stunned faces in that crowd when they heard it was photon oscillation causing etching imperfections on a scale that made such a huge difference. I know I was certainly impressed at the improvement.
+Clockwork Minion I agree, I think he did it more to emphasize exactly how small the scale was and express his own excitement and awe.
Well that's because its fucking incredible.
you're unfunny
That's a very effective method of presenting. What's the problem? This is a good talk, especially for laymen.
It's nice when you stumble across ancient history.
moore bid
What a gem. This video deserves way more upvotes. Its SAD how a drunk cat video shown stumbling on a slippery polished wood floor gets *millions* of likes meanwhile, a highly educated guy's hour+ lecture barely has a few thousand upvotes 🤓😲
That's what happens when common folks are 'entitled/take for granted' sophisticated technology.
Technology should be privileged for scientific minded people who are watching this video.
@@demoncloud6147let people enjoy their cat videos! It is possible to enjoy both, like i do.
wedgehog85 something about the long-term issues related to our environment which the engineer couldn't really give a shit about :(
+Potenti4lz No, he said they scared him. He was serious.
And people run JavaScript text editors! Disgusting!
Just now I can feel how expensive each cycle is
After watching this I am going to turn my light switch off and guess what? It is off. Zero current flow.. We may be smaller and faster but we have not made a switch better. Keep that in perspective.
there will still be a current that flows..
look up capacitors (have a look at the old variable ones too!). if there's a current that can flow between those plates, then current can flow between your switch's plates too
I'm making an offer (transistor) you can't refuse
That's is an awesomely nerdy joke, however the (current) audience don't seem to appreciate (ti)!
ti = Texas Instruments, man you kill a joke when you have to explain it!
i dont get it, is it because your force the transistor on or off?
Uhmm?
This guy doesn't speak like someone with "degrees". Interesting video regardless.
I don't like his rapid fire style of talking. Its as if his narration burns up megabytes in his high-IQ brain. It gets old very quickly.
He does though
Academic language is a symptom of midwittery and arrogance. After a certain period in the real world you become allergic to it
@@fedzalicious you're simply wrong. As he said, it's publicly available, so go debunk his talk
@@fedzalicious his accomplishments have nothing to do with the talk. I think you have a serious misunderstanding about not only this talk, but where it took place and who the audience was
I also have a master's and I specifically make sure to about high level language when talking to laymen because otherwise they won't know what I'm talking about
You're weird
And yet nature produces computers with orders of magnitude more power for the price of a beer. Humbling.
I prefer the original: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is INDISTINGUISHABLE from magic" -- Arthur C. Clark, “Profiles of the Future: An Inquiry into the Limits of the Possible,” 1962. Incidentally, if you're using his idea, you might consider avoiding Plagiarism with a citation.
Cool except for the constant hyperbolism. Transistors are cool, but there are other important things in the world.
+Nicholas Juntilla Yes there are, without transistors, nothing of modern age would remotely work, so they are very important, for medicine, energy production, food processing and transport.
"Importance" is a matter of debate. However it is not debatable that modern semiconductors are the most complex things ever devised by humans.
This is terrible and very amateurish, some kind of nerd convention. Engineers should never try to talk physics. They are embarrassing to everyone.
I couldn't agree with you. Physics of chip manufacturing is simple on first glance or rather complicated on second thought. Both concepts are unsuitable for presentation. However, there are lots of engineering tricks which helps industry to overcome physical restrictions of conventional lithography.
@@Tridd666 thanks for giving me such a strong unexpected laugh, I never would have imagined such dialogue on a video like this to exist and to prove so apt, because your observational skills have produced the best unexpected burn I've seen all year!
What is the last guy's question which is supposedly scary?
"I was wondering, what's the ecological impact of different technologies in terms of recycling and also manufacturing these ... chips?"