Church Historian: Here’s How I Approach Complex Church History - Dr. Steven C. Harper E0020
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- Опубликовано: 14 июл 2024
- If you, or someone you love, has struggled to reconcile complex church history, join us in our conversation with Dr. Steven C Harper.
Exploring the mystery of multiple First Vision accounts, Stephen Jones sits down with BYU Professor Dr. Steven Harper, a renowned historian and expert on Latter-day Saint history.
They unravel the reasons behind the discrepancies and shed light on the broader implications for faith and history, guiding us toward a deeper understanding of this foundational event.
Credits:
Hosted by Stephen Jones
Written and Produced by Stephen Jones
Edited and Produced by Skyler Sorensen
“Let’s Get Real with Stephen Jones” is a Scripture Central original production.
Subscribe to Scripture Central's RUclips:
www.youtube.com/ @scripturecentralofficial
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CHAPTERS
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:00:58 - Personal Experience with Disruptive History
00:06:30 - The Importance of Trust and the Challenge of Discerning Truth
00:10:26 - Approaching Troubling History and Thinking Fast and Slow
00:14:40 - Dealing with Contrary Information and the Role of Knowledge in Faith
00:16:59 - The Importance of Expectations in Learning and the Need for Context and Patience
00:20:59 - The Danger of Assumptions
00:23:52 - The Consequences of Ignoring Critical Thinking, the Importance of Faith, and the Role of Jesus Christ in Faith Crisis
00:28:29 - Different Approaches to Faith, Rationality, and Spirituality in Knowing
00:33:02 - Understanding Assumptions, Mental Health, and the Importance of Slowing Down
00:38:27 - Receiving Revelation
00:43:07 - The Doctrine of Christ, Repentance, and Conflict between Beliefs and Behavior
00:46:48 - Repentance, Rationalization, and the Role of Faith in Reconciling Dissonance
00:50:28 - The Importance of Scripture and Approaching Challenging History with Faith
00:55:33 - The Hermeneutics of Trust and Suspicion, and Interpreting the First Vision Accounts
01:00:42 - Interpreting Facts with Bias, Humility, and Diligence
01:03:16 - Challenging Assumptions in the First Vision Accounts
01:07:34 - Projecting Personal Assumptions, Calling of Joseph Smith
01:16:45 - Revelation and the Role of God in Different Faiths
01:20:38 - Interpreting the First Vision Accounts, Nature of God, and Spiritual Preparedness
01:32:45 - Understanding Covenants
01:39:00 - Role of Christ and Closing Thoughts
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Disclaimer:
THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED REPRESENT THE VIEWS OF THE INDIVIDUAL CREATORS AND GUESTS ALONE AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENT THE OFFICIAL POSITION OF SCRIPTURE CENTRAL OR THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.
When I am in depressive moments, i live on what I know, not what I am currently feeling.
It’s funny. The minute I decided to NOT let the noise interfere with my lack of getting an answer, that’s when I got my answers. I definitely believe that the noise is sometimes the trial of our faith.
Through mists of darkness we MUST go.
I discovered Steven Harper on a podcast or RUclips several years ago. His testimony and teachings on Joseph Smith/Church History completely changed me. I’m so grateful we have access to wonderful discussions like this one.
I’m curious how Steven Harper impacted your testimony of Joseph Smith and church history. Did he expand your understanding of an event you already believed to be true or were you struggling with the conflicting historical info, like we find in the GTE’s?
@@Allthoseopposed I listened to his testimony on RUclips “The Witnesses and Christology of the Book of Mormon - Interview with Steven C. Harper” and read my 3rd great grandfather’s testimony of working side by side with Joseph Smith. Those two testimonies witnessed to me the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. The Spirit was undeniable. I’ve looked for more of Steven’s work and writing, he uses language that speaks to my soul. He’s clear, precise, and stays focused on Christ. That’s all I need.
I teach my kids that it all comes down to having a relationship with God and Christ. Everything is secondary.
Exactly. Try telling your bishop that attending the church being a temple goer paying tithing is all SECONDARY to having a personal relationship with God. Let’s see what the Mormon bishops will say then.
@@jamestrek2570
Those things come as a sign to God and Christ if you have a testimony of God and Christ.
They are simply outward signs to God that you love Him and have faith in Him.
Did you know the tithing is not a “Mormon” principle, but a Biblical Law from God?
My husband and I lived it when we were so poor in grad school.
We said we could not afford to NOT pay our tithing… because we saw miracle after miracle when we walked in faith and kept this law. Those were such sweet days of hardship, and poverty… yet miracles from heaven sustaining us! Now we are upperclass and still live this law. It’s the first thing we do… pay tithing. We still see blessings from obeying this law.
We never want to live without these blessings… God keeps His promises when we obey Him.
The temple is not for everyone… but I run to it now. The symbolism is next level glorious. It is the Hebrew wedding ceremony and engagement being played out.
Every-single action points to Christ and His Plan, goodness and His love.
I’ll be real, for the first few years it wasn’t easy for me. I was confused and did not understand what was happening.
I’ve been studying the symbols and the ceremonies and I feel like my soul is expanding and the blindness over my eyes is lifting off!
It is such an enormous blessing! It is of God. The temple brings me to Christ and I have been closer to Him in His holy house!
The veil over the earth is beginning to burst!
He is coming to His house of worship and I love it!
When I leave I feel like I’m walking three feet off the ground!
But it’s not for everyone. That’s perfectly ok. Keep loving Him and seeking Him and you will find Him!
He loves all His Children whether they are inside or outside the church!
God’s cosmic timetable is perfect! ☀️❤️
@@jamestrek2570we are speaking about knowledge. Not having some sort of pre existent relationship with God. We go to church, pay tithes, and do other things to build our relationship with God. Those things are separate.
Amen!!! Relationship with the Lord is primary!!! The Lord fulfilled the law and now Holy Spirit is leading us into the revelation of a sovereign God who does not share His glory with anyone, yet He made us to be co-heirs with Him!
In a world where a belief in God seems to be waning, a thought came to me while I was meditating 2 days ago that Our Heavenly Father desperately needs to hear from us. I imagine an elderly parent sitting in a care center who for years hasn't been heard from their children. Visiting God can be done anytime, anywhere, He wants and needs us... "And he liveth those who will have him be their God"
1 Nephi 17: 40
Thanks Bro. Jones for having Bro. Harper on your show. I wasn’t sure that I wanted to listen to anything he had to say. However I stumbled upon your show tonight at 3:something AM, and it held my attention like a super strong magnet. I just couldn’t resist listening to it. It has definitely strengthened my confidence in the Church, and I didn’t think I needed it strengthened any further. I thought I already had a great testimony. Listening to your podcast has definitely helped my testimony become stronger. Thanks 🙏 again.❤😊 But it is now 4:23am and my brain is shutting down to sleep.😊😊
The more I study and learn, the more converted I am!
Not studying very well then, fella.
"Relentless repentance is the way to live". That's quite the thought. love this.
Dr Harper changed my life and my testimony for the better. I absolutely loved his class.
I think we’re glazing over an important piece here-it’s not simply learning something new that is troubling. It’s that the manner of that new learning points to a betrayal of trust that was given when we had the “third-grade” understanding. Any manifestation of the “not all truths are useful” mentality needs to be accounted for, because the Church still explicitly calls for full trust despite past breaches.
Edit to add: I think most people can tell the difference between information that was actively withheld and challenging information that another party has made a good-faith effort to share in proper context. And this isn’t just a matter of challenging history-the SEC debacle shows this is a current issue too.
I have offen said that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, yet learning is essential. We are responsible for what we take in. That's when once you start on the path of learning, there is never an end.
This is one of the best one yet!! Thank you to you both! ❤
Love Steven Harper! Such an amazing scholar!
I've always appreciated the down-to-earth logic that Dr. Harper uses when he presents his thoughts and experiences.
Going to enjoy watching this multiple times.
Thanks, SJ!
One of the best Gospel discussions I have ever heard. Make sure and listen until the end bc his testimony is so powerful
Stephen Harper is an excellent historian and scholar. His faith and testimony amplify his insights and interpretation.
I love Steven Harper's approach to history and the way he expresses things. He spoke at a stake conference I attended a few years ago and I remember him saying something like "the critics and I know all the same facts", and that helped me see more clearly that faith and belief are a choice. Thank you for sharing!
Right, and where does doubting leave you? With no resources when the trials hit and the benefit of being buoyed up along the way.
Steve Harper's dad was a great and kind man. He later served as a patriarch.
One of the classiest podcasts on RUclips. Guests, interview style, lighting, production value, and editing is world class, thank you so much.
Agree!
Totally. Not only that but Stephen does such a great job at letting the person speak, and then asking questions to spurn up the conversation. I love the guests he chooses and the way he interacts with them.
@@dallintheriault9747 Love your thoughts and agree, and I have you a hint. to spurn means to reject with disdain or contempt: To spur is to prompt or encourages someone. Very close to hear it but very different in meaning. Spur come from spurs a rider of a horse wears that spur of urge the horse forward. so I agree with what I think you meant, that Stephen Jones does a great job of spurring the conversation on. Is that what you meant?
Thanks for the correction! I totally meant spur.
@@dallintheriault9747 You are welcome I am an English Professor, retired, and I really have a hard time controlling myself. I took a chance because I was pretty sure I knew what you wanted.
Thank you for this, as I've been struggling to be discerning and knowing what's me and what God's voice.
It is not just members, but American as a whole do not understand how the academic discipline of history works.
The church portrays this bull crap feel narrative, just do what we tell you everything will be OK, don't worry we cannot lead you astray, if you follow our holy prophet then you can find christ. Pay no attention to the political moves we make, don't worry about the people we ex for telling the truth, submit to our "authorty" we know how to lead like jesus and it's like what a load of crap.
We got to set this notion of "prophet worship" aside and use our brains a little bit. Hierarchy in and of itself is a big part of the problem.
The church is bloated with administrative beuraracy, secretive about it's billions of dollars, and hardly says anything inspiring.
It's funny the more I put my faith in Jesus Christ the more I realize how curropt the church is
Didnt pay attention in the 7th grade - "We'll never need THIS STUFF!"
Man the spirit stirs my soul. The gospel is so simple yet i find it so difficult. There is this constant tug of war between the flesh and the spirit. It can be so discouraging at times. When the spirit speaks to you reminding you that you need to repent the natural tendency, at least mine, is to put the thought out. Why do i do this. Sometimes the spirit dosent feel good but whom the Lord loveth, the Lord chasteneth. Repentance is hard, it goes against our natural tendencies. We must yeild to the enticings of the Holy Spirit and put off the natural man. Easier said than done but we must try and try we will and success will follow.
@@jasonsnyder8341
Great thought!
I just read a man amazing talk on faith and opposition.
“The Trial of Faith Empowers Faith”- by Larry Barkdull
(November 18, 2022)
In that talk he speaks of how our mortal bodies are in direct opposition to our spirits.
Our bodies are corruptible, sinful, lustfull, greedful.
Our spirits are eternal and pure.
So every minute of everyday we have the tug of war with our spirits and bodies with min ourselves. That’s why in the scriptures it states “our natural man is an enemy to God.”
Our bodies do not desire the things of God by our spirits do.
Depending on which part we strengthen and feed is the one that’s going win.
That’s why we are told to daily repent, study the words of Christ and pray, those exercises strengthen our spirits and we can know more fully the will of God and do it.
If we give into our natural man/bodies… we become blinded to the things of God and strengthen our natural man’s carnal desires.
The talk was so insightful and instructive on why opposition needs to happen.
You are dearly loved! God isn’t waiting for you to mess up and then He can take vengeance. He adores you and wants to reveal His love, might and power for you.
He came not to demand our Allegiance, but to display his affection.
Assume grace not guilt,
We are children at school here in mortality gaining wisdom, experience and knowledge.
It’s so crazy amazing…His perfect plan! ☀️🙏🏻❤️
@@jasonsnyder8341
One last thought…
President Nelson has encouraged us to joyfully repent daily… when you think about what an amazing gift it is to experience, learn falldown, fail miserably over and over and get Christ said ANYTIME we turn back to Him and accept Him, He WILL receive us, broken, unholy, imperfect, miserable sinners… he accepts and adores us fallen, putrid, dirty, lustful creatures… because He knows who he created and He knows our true spirits! In Him our weakness becomes strengths!!!
☀️🙏🏻❤️
This was so powerful for me! I’m dealing with a family member that has been affected by tough history in the church and is willing to listen to alternative voices instead of finding answers from his own investigation. This gives me so much hope and a way to approach my own questions although my feet are planted firmly. Thanks for this one! I will listen to this again I’m sure!!
This is an outstanding discussion. Brother Harper’s son served his mission with my husband and me. They are an outstanding family and doing so much good for so many.
That was excellent thank you for sharing
This was good!!
His experience is very similar to my experience. Exposed to a LOAD of critical material when I was 16, it shook me a bit. I slowed down, decided to do my own investigation. I centered my study on the Bible and Book of Mormon and came out of it with a strong testimony. Since that time, I've discovered real answers to virtually every dart that was thrown my way. The church is true and because of that, I expect the enemy knows it too, and he will not let us rest easy.
❤️☀️🙌🏻love your testimony!
Thank you, this is a really great way to look at it. The enemy does know, of course he tries to mislabel history and make it look bad.
Similar here.
Wonderful testimony. Thank you!
Well done.
All of us are going from grace to grace until we don't need to be here anymore. I perish the thought of generations yet unborn trying to understand our time and use the star or national enquirer as a source for our current society. I have hated Richard Bushman for years for harming the character of my beloved Joseph and from recently made statements by him and realizing that words are not sufficient the Spirit will always be superior and should be the primary source.
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Neat little thought about Rough Stone Rolling… Bushman is an American historian NOT a church historian. He came to an event my husband was at and took questions after he spoke. He was asked about his sources by a church historian, and he admitted he used documents and sources that were antagonistic towards the church but didn’t know at the time.
I don’t know why he never rewrote or added that into his references.
But God knows all things. And though we think some things are harming the church, they end up being spring boards to gathering His children.
I love our dear Joseph too. ☀️🙏🏻
@Icanonlyimagn7891 that is something I have also come to know through different channels. Seems the one thing we so easily forget in our modern society is that the blood of our Savior is good for everyone and that forgiveness is to be freely given. I try not to be harsh with others. We are all finding our way by barrowed light.
@@tacticplanner7188 beautifully said! Thank you!🥰☀️
@@tacticplanner7188 Not trying to be antagonistic. Just want to understand this statement and your previous one. Does this mean you have stopped hating Richard Bushman?
This was an awesome interview! I love the “real” approach. Love the idea that there’s no reason we should dive deep into all of these issues. They will build our faith. Comes down to a choice to approach with faith, hope, and charity as Dr. Harper mentioned. Thank you for this!
I use the same approach as Professor Harper's father when it comes to gaining new insights, whether they are true or a forgery, and allow them to mature over time.
I love Dr. Harper. I had the privilege of taking his class at BYU.
From my experience with depression your experience and others experience always trump what the experts say. Its about learning to trust your inner voice which in my opinion usually contradicts the voice of the experts.
First vision accounts at 1:20:57. The most important part of the discussion surrounding the First Vision is did it happen. There are at least 10 versions known to scholars of early Mormon history. However something had to have happened in the sacred grove. If there was no First Vision, then there is no prophet called in Joseph Smith. There was also no start of the restoration. There would also be no reason to deny the Trinity. There would most likely not be a LDS church established in 1830, or the Book of Mormon published in 1829. The First Vision has to occur in order for the rest to follow. Critics get too caught up in the 10 versions, claiming that means it never happened.
It's really the 4 Smith versions that are the problem. They are self-evidently contradictory. That's the problem.
Secondarily they aggrandize over time, starting with a rather mundane visionary experience in 1832 (common to the time and place), to an unbeatable claim that GOD himself appeared and introduced Jesus to Joseph. I call it the Rigdon effect. Everything aggrandized after Rigdon came on the scene.
That’s why it’s so important to study it out, read all the accounts, read Jospeh’s words and talk to God. God is good and will not allow Satan to answer a heart felt prayer. That’s why God in James 1:5 told His children He will be there to answer ALL our questions while we’re here on earth “at school” if we sincerely ask.
Joseph was searching, pondering and wanted to do God’s will. His mother was telling him to join her church, friends and family members were telling him to join others.
I’ve been in Jospeh’s position where I needed to know From God what to do with certain challenges. Although my family and friends and doctors were all telling me to do different things, I knew God knew what was best, and He surely does answer prayers in His perfect way and cosmic timetable.
Christ told His apostles before he ascended back to heaven that deception would be the sign that would be happening upon the earth before He returned a second time.
How I love the gift of the Holy Spirit that bears witness to my soul of truth. That I can rely on my Creator and Father to teach me truth.
I cannot wait to meet and thank Joseph for being willing to be an instrument in the Lord’s hands to restore the everlasting gospel.
I’m blown away by the beauty and truths found within. Wow, just wow!
Best of blessings as you sort through all the lies and slander. ❤️☀️
@rodneyjamesmcguire As a young man like Joseph was he was persecuted right out of the block when he first mentioned it. I'm sure he was very reserved in what he released to the public. I'm sure he got braver as times went on and released more. Hence the different versions. But because you or I weren't there we'll never know until the day we can ask brother Joseph in person.
@@wheels636 ❤️👍🏻☀️I agree, it’s hard to recreate history with our present view and limited information.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Don Bradley (the historian mentioned in this video who left the church, then came back) makes a good point about the differing accounts.
When you are recounting an event you often taylor it to your audience. Based on what you think they can understand or recieve.
When I ponder on that.. I realize I often do the same thing. I gauge what I think the listener can understand as try to explain an unusual experience or little understood concept to them.
When you think about it, it makes perfect sense.
That doesn't mean my experience, or knowledge I learned didn't happen or that I'm making it up.
Love these discussions, thank you for your examples of faith and learning!
Loved my religion class with Brother Harper at BYU. Great guy!
Great discussion!
I most definitely didn't have the time to dedicate to this video - or at least that's what I thought when I clicked the play button. Best spent hour-and-forty-minutes of this year. Thank you so much. My testimony has been fortified and I'll be thinking about the points in this video for a long time. I=0. I+Jesus = infinity. I love this so much.
I loved this discussion. Powerful testimony of our Lord and Savior. Thank you for sharing both your knowledge and wisdom, and also your witness of Christ.
Regarding Hoffman, I do remember a comment by Elder Oaks at the time along the lines of, "As Church leaders, we tend to believe, giving others the benefit of the doubt!
And, we later learned, Hoffman's story was full of lies and deceit!
11:46 ruclips.net/video/NFfZfNvCntY/видео.htmlsi=QnSr3OErElAaVEfR&t=706
David Alexander always says that another name for Satan in the scriptures is "accuser of the brethren." He further points out that LOVE believes the best about people. If you have charity (which is the pure love of Christ), then it is rather hard for you to think ill of anyone. At least not to begin with. You are honest of heart and deed, and you receive others the same way. It is Satan's purview to be suspicious and accuse and instantly think the worst about people.
Oaks apologetics for the letter was hilarious, rationalizing away how Moroni was actually a giant salamander. Not only shows complete lack of discernment, but also a willingness to decieve in order to keep people believing.
He's totally misunderstood and misapplied the term Satan. It was a role God gave to certain angels, to go harass/accuse/test humans, like in the story of Job. People in old testament times did not have our same concept of a Satan character, much less apostles to be accused of things.
@mokoloki1657 they accused the Lord Jesus Christ of deception before him. Just as scripture prophesied.
The Lord truly prophesied that if they were of the world, the world would love them. But they are not of the world, so the world will hate them.
I loved hearing your testimonies. Thank you for sharing.
Such wonderful wisdom. I appreciated Steven’s testimony at the end. I am thankful for his faith and his scholarship, and for his efforts to build and strengthen the kingdom of God. Another excellent episode!
Thank you-so powerful and helpful!
absolutely outstanding conversation gentlemen... thank you.!!
Love this type of content! Keep it up!
We will keep them comin.
This was another fantastic interview! Thank you so much for sharing this with us. My personal favourite part was to hear the testimony born at the end of this. What a beautiful witness that when we are willing to humbly seek for truth, as well as the Lord, our testimony that starts by praying to have the desire to desire to repent will in time become firmer and firmer until it becomes a sure and perfect knowledge. Keep up the great work 🥰
Thank you.
Thank you for this conversation, it was very important for many people to hear
Documents - can be dubious. I have a high freak out index...thank heavens! Great interview.
I am fine with not knowing answers to tough questions because I don't need to know. My time is precious and I would rather focus on what I do know. My lifetime of gospel experiences can't be denied and I am sticking with what I know to be true. The shaky past can stay in the past in my world. I wasn't there so it has nothing to do with me.
Very pertinent discussion.
So interesting to hear the way you approach this with Church history! Thanks for explaining how to use a academic technic.
I like what President Oaks has said.
Paraphrasing him.
The wisest course may be not to contest a person’s objections to Church activities or doctrine or personnel. The only and ultimate treatment for those who are in, or seriously headed toward, apostasy is to increase their faith in Jesus Christ.
If a person’s apostasy or tendency toward apostasy is based on a highly focused and difficult challenge, there will be a tendency to try to take it head on. But we do not know enough about the will of the Lord and the fulness of Church doctrine to satisfy. An attempt to persuade with additional reasons does not help. There is no answer but faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, faith in the Restoration of the gospel, and patience in waiting for answers when the Lord chooses to reveal them.
Relentless Repentance!!!🙏🏻👏❤️
It is possible to find the Character of G-d within the Bible. I know, because that was me. To be fair, I was never at home till I joined the LDS church this last February. My problem was that every church I went to was off on that (understanding his character). Even as a little girl the Trinitarian ideas were troubling and when I brought for post death learning I was shunned, even though it’s right there in the new testament , and in the consciousness of modern Jewish teachings if they open their hearts. I have studied the Bible with a prayer to open my eyes to see what G-d has for me to see, hear what he has for me to do and speak what he has for me to speak, it keeps me on track.
One thing I am having trouble with right now is that G-d is flesh and blood like us. I know G-d can be flesh and blood, but he is more than that, can be different than that. It is a confusion I have in the church right now. He is the Great “I am”
Even though we don't have much understanding of the nature of perfect resurrected bodies like those of The Father and Christ, some things have been taught by modern prophets. We don't believe God nor Christ are flesh and blood. They are flesh, but blood does not rise with the body in resurrection. Joseph, Brigham and others taught as much. As an example, John Taylor said "“When the resurrection and exaltation of man shall be consummated, although more pure, refined and glorious, yet will he still be in the same image, and have the same likeness, without variation or change in any of his parts or faculties, except the substitution of spirit for blood." And B Young: "the blood will not be resurrected with the body, being designed only to sustain the life of the present organization."
The thing about Joseph Smith not remembering how old he was. How often do people when they look back and tell a story about a time in their youth have a hard time remembering exactly how old they were?
How old are you?
That can easily be true with regard to off-the-cuff remarks, when one is recalling something for the first time in years in an impromptu situation. It's ordinarily not something that would apply to a life-changing event that one thinks about often. It definitely wouldn't apply when one has decided to formally give an account that is to be written down. Most people know exactly how old they were when a major world event happened. You'd think a young man like JS would know exactly how old he was when he personally met and saw the creators of the universe. He's supposedly not trying to recall something trivial, like when he first met Wilbur Snott, a kid he played with once in a while.
Thoughtful. Enlightening. I've watched three of your interviews; now I'm going to catch up on the others.
So good!
I also had a young experience with doubt. Possibly pre-teen but around that time. I read the same book David Alexander has mentioned from when he was also a young fan of Sherlock holmes. But from considering the shock I felt over such scandalous storytelling about the Mormons I gained from the experience the sense that there never was anyone so good or anything so true that it couldn't be lied about. That's often been a great strength and too many young and old still have a naivete which makes them vulnerable to scammery
Dr. Harper gives some great advice about "thinking slow", hermeneutics, expectations, assumptions, and metacognition.
He's also the first semi-official/church employee I've heard who has openly stated "We could find plenty of fault with Brigham Young if we wanted to", followed by "and that's a fine thing to do if we don't then become judge, jury, and executioner. We can learn from faults, from people in the past, if we bring faith, hope, and charity to that project" (55:59).
Can "learning from faults\people in the past" include pointing out in church settings\talks specific mistakes people in the past have made? We do that with Korihor, Sherem, Nehor, King Noah, John C. Bennett, etc., but I have yet to hear the mistakes of Brigham Young openly discussed.
It also seems Dr. Harper engaged in some gas-lighting when he said that the only members who aren't aware of the problems in church history are those who've had "their head in the sand" (6:59) or "stay at a third-grade level of gospel knowledge" (17:10). You can attend church for decades and graduate from seminary and institute, and so long as you stick to church correlated content there is a ton of "disruptive" material, as Dr. Harper calls it, that you won't come in contact with.
Loved this. So powerful. Great way to articulate testimony and doubt and slowing down when we are confronted with new and troubling information. I could have done without the problematic slight on therapist at the end but other than that, it was great.
Right on Steve. You should bring your old mug to the next class reunion when we have another one, 2028.
The witness of the Spirit that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the true church of Christ, restored, has gotten me through all of my "fast thinking".
👏🙏 great video!
Just great discussion
I am glad I have left the Church and I do not have to do the Mental Gymnastics that Dr. Harper goes through in this Video to try and make sense of the 4 different First Vision versions. President Joseph Fielding Smith even had problems with the different versions. That is why he removed the 1832 version from the church records only to add it back in after the Tanners showed its existence.
To approach the First Vision with skepticism like Vogel, and not with faith like Bushman. Makes more sense because "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
One thing he never address is the fact that there is NO record of the First Vision before 1832. Joseph Smith said he was persecuted "All his Days" after telling people right after of the First Vision. There so NO record of it EVER being mentioned. This is a huge problem to me. And he never even brings it up.
Anywhere else, but in the church, are we told that "It's natural to have different versions (of what happened) for different audiences".
EVERYWHERE else that would be called lying. The truth is the truth.
@@tombalderreeI believe we do give varying versions when we tell others of our experiences, depending on the audience or the situation. In conversations with individuals or groups of people, we humanes don't generally talk to each other in memorized speeches. If I am speaking to a relative or friend, I may give more details. To another, I may be answering a specific question they asked me. In other situations, I may share little of the experience. That is just normal communication. If you want to learn spiritual things, you must learn through the spirit. If you are truelly seeking to know the truth as to whether God lives, whether the Bible or Book of Mormon are true, and whether or not Christ has restored his Gospel to the earth in our day through prophets, I submit that you CAN know the truth of these things. Study it, ponder it, then pray to your Father in Heaven with a sincere heart, if these things are true. He will answer those who truely seek the truth. I testify that these things are indeed true.
> leaves the church
> can’t stfu about it
Yeah that’s pretty typical. Congrats. You’re not the first dork to do it. You want a medal?
@@tdm2298agreed
@@tdm2298 If the Book of Abraham is shown to be fraudulent then I feel that casts down on his claims to have had visions. I could really bisect your belief in the Book of Abraham but you rely on a different source for your convictions and probably would not listen.
If the prophets and apostles cannot discern the righteous from the wicked then that would leave room for them to lead us astray hence there is no use for us to follow their guidance.
The Lord will not allow a prophet to lead the church astray,,, the Lord would remove him from his position first and another called in his place. Simple as that.
Steve Harper is such a smart guy and is so well versed in LDS history. I just can’t fathom how he is still a believer.
The only reason I can even think of is because he works for and is paid well by the church to do what he does.
Take away his source of income and his future retirement we might be speaking to a whole different man
Maybe because he believes it’s true?
For myself without Joseph Smith, I would not have a God, because without the restoration and the Book of Mormon Doctrine And Covenants Pearl of great price, the Bible has no chance. But now that I experienced such great and miraculous things, I need none of it. But on the other hand, I need all of it
Scholars with amazing faith. Inspiring interview!
Great interview.
Really good interview!
“At length, as I lay apparently upon the brink of eternal woe, seeing nothing but death before me, suddenly there came a sweet flow of the love of God to my soul, which gradually increased. At the same time, there appeared a small gleam of light in the room, above the brightness of the sun, then at his meridian, which grew brighter and brighter: As this light and love increased, my sins began to separate, and the Mountain [of sin] removed towards the east. At length, being in an ecstasy of joy, I turned to the other side of the bed, (whether in the body or out I cannot tell, God knoweth) there I saw two spirits, which I knew at the first sight. But if I had the tongue of an Angel I could not describe their glory, for they brought the joys of heaven with them. One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a Cloud. In looking steadfastly to discern features, I could see none, but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man-His face was not ablaze, but had the countenance of fire, being bright and shining. His Father’s will appeared to be his! All was condescension, peace, and love!! I was filled with the sacred flame, and the glory of God; I thought one spark more in my soul would have destroyed this mortal frame!! I was happy!!! happy!!! happy!!! I wanted ten thousand tongues to sing their sweet, their glorious praise!! It was a heaven here below for the space of half an hour!! But how infinitely short must I come of describing their glory, for want of language to paint my feelings! For the joys of Heaven so far surpass all bounds of description, or human conception, that christians here below come infinitely short of forming a competent idea of the joys that await the righteous: ‘Eye hath not seen, Ear hath not heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man to conceive of those good things, the Father hath prepared for them that love him.'”
Vision of Norris Stearns, published in 1815, 5 years before Joseph Smith states his vision took place and 17 years before any written record of Joseph’s first vision.
Maybe God really was making multiple appearances in the woods of New England in the early 1800s.
Read read read.
“Truth does not fear questions.”
@coryhorton5837 Thanks so much for sharing that. That is SO cool! I totally agree that we should not fear truth and reality, even if it does not initially match up with our previous perceptions.
It makes sense to me, that God would be preparing multple people to receive His truth. At the time all of society believed the trinitarian doctrine that God, Jesus and Holy Spirit were one being, existing everywhere at once. This man's vision clearly demonstrated a different reality, and that God does have the form of a man.
That’s great the more the better!
Did this person start a church or some movement?
Fantastic!
Good discussion! Multiple versions of the First Vision seems to be a problem for some today. However, I know of no early converts who became disillusioned with Joseph because of this (or the idea that it only became a thing in 1832). Surely it would have been a widely documented cause of considerable angst if it was an issue of concern at the time.
That's because it's only become an issue recently. Joseph Smith is not here in person to testify or clarify and all of the opposition has been busily at work to destroy his credibility and add confusion by every means possible. For myself I know for certain the Book of Mormon is true as much as I know I exist and because its a true book I know J smith was a true prophet and all that came forth from him is also true. In that order. You start with the book,,, just as moroni counseled.
Wonderful discussion! Thank you so much!
A bigger problem is not the teachers, it is the members of the church themselves who refuse to ask the hard questions until they get to the internet. There are plenty of people including myself that are willing to discuss any hard subject within our ward, but they don't want to really discuss those heart issues in private or in public. They'd rather go to this seclusion of their internet and then work it out for themselves. They do not seek the community to help them through their faith crisis. I offered 2 lb of jelly beans to any student that could come up with the best question in seminary and none of them came up with any question that had to do with hard subjects. They could have wrote private on there so that they could be anonymous or come to me later and talk to me about that subject , whatever. Again, I find that the people really don't want to know even if there's a God sometimes, because the real is very scary
If the offer is still valid, I could give you lots of good questions, no jelly beans required.
@@scottvance74 I have a zoom meeting every week, usually two or three of them for 2 hours, especially on Mondays and Tuesdays. And you're more than welcome to join me and we could go over anything that you could ask
@@alatterdaysaintonfire5643 Thank you for the kind offer. Let me know how I might join.
@@scottvance74 I guess I'm going to make a video telling you how to get a hold of me.
Are some Chyrch employees silent; as their pensions are in jeopardy should they speak out?
Sometimes BYU employees who are close to retirement who have a more nuanced view of the faith stay quiet to be able to retire with benifits. I don't know of reports of other church employees who fit this bill apart from one 70 who died a while back.
Once again, another great podcast. Very insightful and helpful. I just wanted to mention on the subject of mental health and being able to feel the spirit, Jane Clayson addresses this topic in her book.”Silent Souls Weeping”. It is definitely worth reading.
I recently read an article from the Christian Religious Professor Mark D. Harris which went through the different accounts of Paul and the variations within them depending on the audience he relayed them to and the length of time from when the event took place. The conclusion for the varying accounts of Paul is that the variation adds to the reliability and authenticity of his testimony of the vision he had with the Lord. If a Christian were to be honest and consistent, the same conclusion should be applied to Joseph Smith as well, in relation to his authenticity between the First Vision Accounts he gave.
I don’t understand why we can’t just be believers!
Also, for someone who claims to know a lot about church history, it’s a shockingly hypocritical thing to claim William Mclellan is guilty of adultry and Joseph smith is not
Smith never committed adultery. Stop! lying about the prophet you troll.
When you guys commented on others receiving Revelation, my first thought was Joan of Arc
Who's fault has is it been that faithful lifelong members are not informed about the real history of the church?
Why is God so incompetent that he can't properly communicate the truth to his living Prophets?
Who's at fault if a prophet got the wrong message that causes someone to doubt and or leave?
It wasn’t the prophets or the Church. It was lazy learners and lax disciples, to use President Nelson's phrase, who failed to adequately study gospel doctrine and church history and develop a real testimony.
@@jaredshipp9207 where in the correlated curriculum (before 9 years ago) was a rock in a hat, Joseph Smith's polygamy and polyandry, Joseph Smiths treasure digging, multiple versions of the first vision... ect ect? Sources would be nice, because I personally know people who were excommunicated for talking about the above topic in the 80's and 90's.
@@franklinanderson9687 If everything were crystal clear, especially clarity that’s simply handed to you by someone else, it would defeat the Plan of Salvation. Alma 12:9 - 11. God himself will answer you, in his time. It will take humility, ongoing repentance, desire, effort, faith centered in Jesus Christ.
@@franklinanderson9687That info has been around for years. Your post tells me you have surface knowledge and minimal understanding of these subjects. Those who do the spiritual work will know the Church is true and won't apostitize.
@@franklinanderson9687wow, so off based. Let’s just take one of your examples. First Vision accounts have been taught in the church for a hundred years! It is mentioned by BH Roberts in the church official history in 1930. 1965 in both the Improvement Era and the Ensign. April 1970 Improvement Era has a synoptic chart comparing all of the accounts. You are creating a classic straw man to say that the church has intentionally hid things from its members. Simply untrue. Also, I’m calling you out… I want specific examples of people who were “excommunicated for talking about the above topic”
Dr Harper's discussion of spiritual communication and noise could almost be taught in an Electrical Engineering class. That is exactly the problem one faces in telecommunications, and similar technologies. And most of the methods used to obtain messages in a "noisy" environment relate to "slowing down". Integration methods involve accruing data over time and looking for patterns to emerge. Collision detection and retry methods involve discovering an error and re-attempting the communication again. Sometimes multiple attempts. Some methods require a reasonable guess at which message character was intended - then verifying that the answer is sensible. Phase-lock loops require time to synchronize. Sounds like the Lord is an electrical engineer.
This is one of the best interviews in the LDS podcast world. I love it.
Claims, not facts. That change in paradigm helped me be critical of what I was being told to believe. The misrepresentation of the claims as facts try to force you to accept something that can be false. “The facts are the facts”
.” Wrong, the facts are actually claims and you are reasonable if you are not convinced with the claims.
❤❤❤❤❤
I just finished reading the book, How the BoM came to pass" written by Lars Nielson.
If you are having trouble with what is true and what is not, I recommend it to you.
1:04:10 I'd like to read the talk by Elder Kyle S. McKay he mentioned here. Does anyone know where to find it?
Have you read the 1815 account of the guy who saw the father and son? He was on his Deathbed and said the Father and Son appeared to him. He said he was told he could die and go with them and have a partial Redemption since he was religious Less or he could stay on Earth and repent and have a full redemption. Well to me that's not even the same as what Joseph Smith went through nor could it serve Joseph Smith in his purposes in any way. The guy ultimately decided to stay on Earth and repent. Ironically this guy's Vision lines up with Joseph Smith's section 76 vision when at the time everyone who was religious was thought they were going to hell. So why does this guy's Vision line up with Joseph's?
I really love this episode and learned a lot. Thank you for sharing your insights.
If that’s true regarding, “prophets and apostles making mistakes”, then they shouldn’t claim to have discernment because they clearly do not, neither do local leaders.
The Holy Ghost works through imperfect people
Exactly!
@@MRRANDOMZ11 yes, and we are warned about false prophets in the last days. We are the Gentiles the Book of Mormon is talking to specifically. Read with new eyes, let God teach you what He has to say.
Sheep follow blindly! Baaaaa
Prophets are just men. They aren't perfect. J smith made mistakes so did biblical prophets. Is that so difficult to understand?
I’ve read and studied the Book of Mormon for over 50 years. On my mission God revealed to me the truthfulness of the book. But that was a long time ago so now I read and rely on my brain. The Book of Mormon is undeniably, absolutely true. Because of that I know Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God, Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, His Church is restored and President Nelson is His Prophet today.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2
Polygamy, seer stones, race and priesthood, mistakes, nothing else matters
I love your testimony. Mine came in an opposite way. Many unmistakabke witnesses have happened to me at random times that this is Jesus Christ's restored church in the last days. Because of those witnesses... I believe in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, and all the rest of it. Any anomalies that pop up about church history, contradictions, questionable stories etc, mean nothing to me.
God uses flawed people to bring about his purposes. I will never judge the early saints because of their mistakes or flawed humanity. I have nothing but compassion and gratitude for them. ❤
@@tamaraelsberry6630Beautifully said Tamara.
3:55 the "they" is the church correlation committee.
So, I read the multiple 1st vision accounts several times and I don't see what the problem is.
I'm Mormon, but believe Oriental Orthodoxy (Armenian). If anything the 1st vision reaffirms the Holy Trinity.
Look at the other stuff Joseph did. He was definitely a trickster and a theological genius.
Huh?
@dmoney4075 huh? We speak English here. Or any other language, I have a translator. But it doesn’t read huh dialect.
There is much more to learn all that comes from god is good.
Listening to Brother Harper’s interview I keep having a scripture go through my mind of a prophecy that I think he and many others are unintentionally fulfilling.
Know this also, that in the last days perilous times shall come, for men shall be… ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 3:1-7
Nah.
What happens when the lies exposed were kept by the church leaders?
Don’t forget to like the video, friends 😊
Polygamy is by far my favorite thing about the LDS Church. It is the main reason I know it is true above anything else.