Why Expats rate Germany so poorly (prepare yourselves)
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- Опубликовано: 23 сен 2024
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What is an expat? Should we stop using this term and why do expats have such a hard time in Germany? This is a complex topic which requires context which is why the video is a little longer than most of mine.
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I’d say an immigrant is someone who lives abroad with the intention of obtaining citizenship and/or permanent residency. An expat is someone who moves abroad with the intention of either returning to their passport country or moving elsewhere abroad in the future.
Yes I would agree with that definition. Although I think there is an Importent element of work. Expats don’t go to foreign countries without having a job set up whereas immigrants might do so.
@@britingermany I'm old and from the US and there the term meant specifically only to those who were sent by their foreign employer to the US. I live in Hamburg, Germany and I see the term used on Facebook now for pretty much any foreigner living in Germany who feels one social status point higher than those who entered into the EU without identity papers.
@@britingermanyboth are forms of Immigration albeit with a pinch if classism.
By any definition I should be an expat. I'm black and Muslim in Germany. I'm simply an Immigrant.
@@britingermany possibly expat retirees...
Bureaucracy, housing shortage, underdeveloped digitalisation etc. - certain lacks diminish the happiness of German natives as well, me included.
Nevertheless - congratulations on another substantial and interesting Sunday video, Benjamin, and, of course, I wish you a pleasant and carefree Herbstanfang😊
Thanks a lot Torsten. I love Herbst. 🍁
Prima, Benjamin, dann sind wir hier schon zwei!🍂♥😉
Indian here. Have lived in Singapore for many years, where I felt clearly a part of the immigrants community and not expats - a term that is clearly reserved for only white people living there.
In Germany, I feel that the difference between these two terms doesn't exist so much. However, here the problem is that even well meaning Germans see most immigrants of color as poor and uncivilized migrants who must be re-educated to live in the western society.
Hi thanks for commenting. Interesting distinction. I’m wondering if you noticed a difference between say British Indians or African Americans. Does the attitude change once they hear your accent or get to know you?
@@britingermany Yes, I am an African-American currently living in the UK and moving to Germany soon. I had the same question, as I lived in India, too, and clearly, white folks were Expats there, whereas Black people were treated with disdain even though most were Expats by the definitions you serve here (moved to India for a specific work/study purpose and no intention to immigrate). I've had Germans tell me I am NOT a real American, which makes me wonder what they think of all the Germans in my hometown, Louisville, KY, where there is an entire Germantown. Race matters and it's sad when folks pretend it doesn't because it makes them uncomfortable
@@britingermanycan Singaporeans not tell the difference between Indians and black people?
Expats are generally wealthy and are privileged & entitled. Bangla labourers in the UAE are temporary workers but not seen as expats, unlike Brit or Danish - for eg - accountants or web developers working temporarily in the UAE.
Probably because most of such people in Germany, behave like that and has nothing to do with European culture.
I came to Germany as a Master's student from the USA and then got a PhD. Honestly, making friends outside of work has not seemed to be that hard. I found a group of people playing dungeons and dragons and through them met other people and started going to the pub for things like pub quizzes and met more people etc. I do live in NRW and I have been told that is the most open and friendly area of Germany so there could be that. I have since found a job in Germany and I started working on learning German.
I have met some people that have had a very hard time integrating but they sure do make things hard for themselves. They only hang out with other people from their country or similar countries and they refuse to eat anything except the kind of food they ate in their own country. They complain about how expensive food is because they import so much stuff and they refuse to even try other options. Even when I have asked them to go to a pub quiz or a city event the answer is always no.
Yeah, as a Berliner I see this a lot with english native speakers here. You can get away with not learning German here easily, so they dont have the motivation to do so and only hang out with other expats. It creates a strange divide between them and the general population I think.
@@aljaska8212yup, I stayed with an Anglo couple in Neukölln for two weeks once and it seemed that their only friends were other English speakers. No Germans or Arabs/Turks.
I am in NRW also but in the East of the state and it is not so friendly. I was in the west side and the difference is like chalk and cheese. Here, you have to learn the language, no real choice
I had no idea you are half Swiss. Why did you choose to move Germany instead of Switzerland?
@@alia9087 I am near Aachen and Koln and so far pretty much everyone I have encountered has been pretty nice. I don't think I have felt that a German has insulted me. I know they have a reputation for just saying what they mean but I have just not had an issue with that.
Thank you for this thoughtful and balanced presentation. I moved from England to Germany twenty years ago for love. My girlfriend was German, and I was tired of living in England. I spoke no German, had outdated and negative thoughts about Germans in general, so it was a really pleasant surprise to find that they were really decent people. Through my lover, I was introduced to her friends and soon had a network of German friends. Okay, they were educated people who spoke English, and that is important to bear in mind. To keep this short: I like the Germans. Their 'directness' was a bit of a shock to begin with, but then I was equally shocked by the dissembling, 'dishonesty' of the English culture as I saw it, having lived and worked in other countries before. In other words, I had a yardstick. If you don't care for 'direct' then avoid Israel! And by the way, forget this myth that the Germans have no sense of humour. They think the madness of Monty Python is hilarious.
Interesting. Germans have a reputation for taking law and order seriously and being obsessed with norms, so perhaps they're very decent in that sense, but their world wide acknowledged directness is felt as hostile by many people. I dream of living there too.
Interesting video! Ive lived in Germany for 34 years...I think I no longer coumt as expat, although I still have my UK Passport, and will never leave Niedersachsen.I managed to integrate very quickly, living and working only with Germans, German speakers. Here in the North, there is a hard outer crust in their personality, but once youve breached that, life can be quite nice.
I am from lower Saxony and yes, we do not trust easily and we certainly have our ways; but when you do make it into the inner circle, you'll be there for life.
@@lastlines09 I live in Bad Gandersheim...'Vorharz'...yes, the people here do have their 'ways'! 😀
@@markdollery2325 for me, it is a bit further north, between Bremen and Bremerhaven. Got a few drops of North sea in the blood 🦭
Those three main topics of friends, housing and infrastructure are also things Germans hate about the country. It's not affecting those who come from a stable and relatively wealthy family who stay in the very place they grew up in as much, but otherwise it's a growing concern.
The other thing is language - while on paper, you'd expect people to all be fluent in English and be fine with spending their private life in English, a lot of people feel exhausted by speaking English. So if you don't speak German fluently, you will likely either be among people with a similar background or lonely, not only because of the different background but also because you are seen as exhausting in the back of their heads.
I have seen expats, also German expats, who felt insulted by "having to learn a language just not to be discriminated against", but you can't expect people in their homes to abandon their culture just because you show up. Which basically brings us back to colonial times.
There is also a cultural aspect I don't fully understand, sometimes you try to converse with people and there is this wall of having nothing to talk about. My local friends share a similar background with me as well. People who moved into the city from other cities across the country in their teens and were a bit of an outcast.
I think you have a point there. It’s not always explicit discrimination. It’s just the feeling of not fitting in
I know a Chinese Expat and his opinion is that the Ruhr is a good place for expats in Germany based on his experience of living in Munich and Muehlhein /Ruhr. He speaks perfect German and good English. In his opinion people in the Ruhr are more open because of the long history of immigration
I moved to Essen in 1997 and after a couple years, changed my plans to stay only 5 years and stayed. The Ruhr region is a hidden gem.
So true. After the coal mining stopped there the whole area changed. But the very to-the-ground mentality stayed the same. My favorite mindset in Germany.
@@patrickscroggin1438 But be careful! People from the Ruhr are opened to migration, yes, but they have a fame to be quite direct with the way they speak.
German guy here from that region. It is simple a matter of numbers. In the Ruhr around 35% of the population have a so called migration background. Meaning that they or their parents migrated to Germany. Furthermore, we have many Grandchildren (and even great grandchildren) from the first wave of immigration in the 60ies and 70ies.
Recently I met an American in Milan, he called himself an expat despite living in Italy for 25 years. I said he's an immigrant, he got very defensive saying he falls into the expat category. It's laughable.
They just have the term "expat" because they can't cope that they are "immigrants" :D :D :D
LOL, 👍🏼
He probably doesn’t work at all in Italy and retired there. It’s a little bit different. No need to be defensive about it. My wife is German and I’m American and we go back and forth. We have a house in Florida and we live in a house we purchased in Germany for a few months a year. So am I an immigrant or an expat or neither? It’s complicated
@@righteousmammon9011 He lives permanently in Italy for 25 years. As an Italian, I wouldn't see you as an immigrant or an expat. Other Italians might have a bad view of Americans that buy houses in Europe and make the cost of living more expensive for us. That's the case in Spain, Italy, southern France, etc.
@@gabolifavmc but they’re fine with Italians or French or Germans or Spanish buying houses in the US? Many of you are over here too…. Especially in Florida. It’s a double standard.
As someone who holds Germany fairly high on the list of "where could we go if democracy falls in the US" (because 1. I took three years of German in High School, and ten years ago picked it up again on DuoLingo, and 2. we have now been there three times and have a small set of friends scattered throughout the country, and a larger set in Europe in general), I found this video fascinating. I always joke that when people asked me "What do you want to be when you grow up?" I'd reply "expatriated". All I knew was that meant I was living abroad and probably cultured, well-bred, well-educated, and moderately well off. The semantic conversation about "expat vs. immigrant" is especially interesting in modern times (the post Covid BLM era especially) and I wonder - do I want to be an immigrant to escape the fall of democracy (should that occur) or just an expat (American living abroad.)
Thank you for giving me much to think about. :)
Thanks for your comment. Sounds like your well set up should you want to make the move
Funny, I was about to move to the states but returned to Germany because of working conditions, health insurance, infrastructure, crime etc. I am very dissatisfied with Germany and things are getting worse. But moving here from the US, you will feel as if you entered paradise.
Looking at Germany's position in the ranking, one would think it's a miserable place to be, yet the text says "64% of expats are happpy with their life in Germany, compared to 72% globally". So the glass is two thirds full and one third empty. There's room for improvement, but it's ok for a significant majority.
Yes that’s true. It is at the bottom of the scale comparatively speaking but as you say 64% are happy.
I guess Germany is not the right place for very friendly people or party goers who need to be surrounded by joyful crowds all the time... for that you have Latin America! 🤣🤪
I'm a Brazilian living in Germany and I consider myself more an immigrant than an expat because I came here to stay longer, not only temporarily due to a job. One of the hardest thing in Germany for me is to find and keep friends. Usually other Brazilians do have a difficult time living here too, or so I have often heard from others.
Thanks for commenting. I have a few Brazilian friends in Frankfurt and there is actually a massive Brazilian community here.
It’s hard even for natives… look for clubs is my Tipp to u ;)
@@Anri6547And once the ice is broken, the friendship to a German quickly gains depth:)
Hello there! I'm from Costa Rica and I have a sincere and serious question: did you have any problem with the convalidation or recognition of your title or college degree? Unfortunately for me, I perform a regulated profession and that process is far more complicated than I thought. Basically, I have to go there and start from zero making some courses. Thanks forward!
I'm actually a bit annoyed with those who say they can't find friends.
Here in Denmark, it is actually us (the Danes) who are to blame. Because we all speak English, it's more or less our fault that they don't learn the language, and thereby find it easier to make friends and understand the culture.
Then there are those who do not do anything to learn the language. They say: "The language is so difficult!", but these are the same people, who do not attend to the three years of free Danish education.
Yes, the best way is to join a club/verein/forening. In this country we have clubs/vereins/foreninger for everything, and it's cheap.
You have to be active, to improve your life.
Yes. Your last sentence is 100% accurate. You have to be active
Lige som du sagde: med at tale dansk har jeg ihvert fald ALDRIG haft problemer med at finde venner i Danmark! De har tvaertimod aabnet for mig dörene og har bedt mig ind i huset. Det ville jeg aldrig glemme!
Germany doesn’t offer 3 years of free education.
@@motocyklist.gdansk Det er godt at høre.
Lots of people have learned German and joined Vereine and done all the things you’re supposed to do. And then they find they have nothing to show for it at the end. Assuming anyone who is dissatisfied with the prevailing social culture of Germany simply didn’t try hard enough is reductive and insulting imo.
I've been living in Germany for about 35 years and I have to say the germans have changed a lot in that time. When I first came the germans were definitely very rude especially as far as service was concerned like in shops and restaurants and government offices. Serving was seen as something inferior so the people who did it passed on their resentment to the customers. In countries like France and Italy waiter is a respected profession because they have so much respect for food. In Germany waiting was done by people like students as a part-time job. I remember in the nineties there was even an article in Time magazine about Germany being a service desert which was widely read here. After that things changed and the department store chain Karstadt put an extra clause in their work contracts that employees had to be polite to the customers. Government offices are now called Customer Centres and supermarket cashiers always say hello. If people say germans today are unfriendly they don't know what they're talking about. Young germans today I find very open and friendly which is really refreshing.
You've been indoctrinated if you think Germans as a group are friendly haha
I've got such great German friends from my time living there, but nearly every day i left the house it felt like at least one German in public, someone serving me or the beauracracy generally would try ruin my day.....there's just a heaviness and bitterness that hangs around even the nicest cities in Germany, it sticks to you
I completely disagree with this. I have been living in Germany for the last 16 years. The worst experiences I've ever had with "customer service" have been in Germany-- from restaurants, supermarkets to fast food, even in medical offices (doctors, dentists, receptionists at medical facilities, nurses... !) I won't even begin to mention government offices... whether you speak German or not or are German, it doesn't matter.
@@mjg239 haha the whole experience with the medical system was a nightmare, even with private insurance I avoided it like the plague
I think British people who live overseas like to call themselves Expats, whereas people from overseas who live in Britain are called immigrants. It's a way for British people to avoid labelling themselves with the toxic term. Expats like to see themselves as better than immigrants, don't claim benefits and are a benefit not a drain on the host country.
Exactly
Expats don't live in the country, they live in an international bubble in a country and they believe that they are citizens of the world. The big majority is working for a big company, for diverse foreign offices, for NGO's etc. In fact they are the colonials of our days.
@@nothinglefttomakerealliterally anyone can be an expat tbh
Yes...
I always enjoy your Sunday "supplements". You obviously spend a lot of time thinking about your situation and tha of others, thus presenting valuable insights.
🤣🤣Sunday supplements. I like that. Thanks a lot
There are people who never moved out of their home town and didn't even travel much outside of it, and yet they lived in several countries!
If you were born in Uzhorod (a city in the west of Ukraine) in 1914, it would have been the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Four years later, you'd've been in Czechoslovakia, in 1939 in Hungary, in 1945 in the USSR, and finally in 1991 in Ukraine. 5 countries altogether in the same city, maybe even the same house!
Yeah that’s pretty crazy. Makes you question national identity for sure
Wie im Westen Deutschlands...
Nachsatz: Ich meine natürlich das heutige Bundesland Saarland, das nicht erst seit Napoleons Zeiten da allerhand mitgemacht hat, allein die Generation meiner Großeltern hat mit mindestens fünfmaligem Staatsbürgerschaftswechsel gelebt, und ob der Beitritt als Land zu Deutschland das letzte Abenteuer dieser Art gewesen ist, steht noch in den Sternen. Just like in the west of Germany...
Postscript: I am of course referring to today's federal state of Saarland, which has been through all sorts of things, and not just since Napoleon's time. My grandparents' generation alone lived with at least five changes of citizenship, and whether joining Germany as a Bundesland was the last adventure of this kind is still written in the stars.
@@jrgptr935 Thanks for letting us know - I didn´t know Saarland has experienced this ping-pong game. Anyway, did your grandparents feel any afinity to France later on in life when they finally lived as German citizens?
As for fate written in stars, in this day and age it´s not about France and Germany anymore. That story is over. The new conflict lies elsewhere.
But that's normal German history. Sometimes with move. The question is, did your ethnic group ever change, you staid, czech or slowenian, or german, or hungarian all your life I guess.
In Germany about 30% of entire population got relocated in 1945, if you remember.
My grandma is born in austrian hungary (50km south of Dresden), this was czech republic from 1919, annexed by the Nazis 1937, relocated 1945 (10km north actually), DDR from 1949 and change of state in 1989 again. Normal german biografie, with a 10km move.
@@jrgptr935 I am from the Saarland and would have preferred joining France. I was a child when the Saarland "moved back" to Germany and one of the things I did not like was that instead of the colourful French Franc we now had to use the boring looking Deutschmark. Totally irrelevant, but that was a child's emotion. My parents, especially my father, were very francophile.
In 1981 I came across German and British expats in Lagos/Nigeria. Their behaviour towards their Nigerians counterparts was highly questionable, if not despicable. It reeked of colonialism and I was very upset.
These days a lot of retired Germans emigrate to Bulgaria because life over there is cheaper.
A lot of them are disgusted with German politics, complaining/whining etc.. They might think of themselves as expats because they live within their closely knit community.
We re living in a decade of upheaval/war/extremism and Europe has to struggle.
I’m glad you explained in detail what it takes to live in Germany.
I’d like to quote H. Heine: Denk ich an Deutschland in der Nacht, dann bin ich um den Schlaf gebracht.
The state elections in Thuringia, Saxony and Brandenburg clearly show us what is at stake.
I still hope that my compatriots will not forget that ‘love thy neighbour’ regardless of his/her nationality is the basic concept of peaceful coexistence.
Don't you find the crime statistics more concerning? 7000 women since 2015? Knife attack every single day? Do you ignore that?
I think it's pretty clear that Germany is a nation that appreciates justifying its racism and the superiority of the German lifestyle.
@@jansoltes971 Don't you find it more concerning that Germany has 7,8 deaths in traffic per day? Or that Germany has 8,8 heat deaths per day? Or, since you mention crimes against women, don't you find it more concerning that every two days a woman in Germany gets murdered by her ex? Don't you find the climate crisis most concerning of all, a catastrophe that can be compared to nothing in human history, not even to the bronze age collapse, threatening our very civilization and even now already killing countless people (Ahrtal still ring a bell?)?
If you don't find any of those or also the countless, countless other issues in Germany more concerning - then why is the occasional criminal refugee the one issue you are so concerned about? One could almost assume racism when you choose to take this one statistic so much more seriously than so many other more concerning ones.
This is the most typical German view.
@@Jonathan.Ivo.Loewer Wow. Who told you I'm not concerned about all you mentioned? BUT what you call "occasional crime" appears in a completely different light when you realize that "your guests" are extremely overrepresented in the above mentioned statistics. When it comes to thing against women, it's 40-70x more. And it's not only those 7000 women who are traumatised for the rest of their lives, let me tell you that! It's also their children and other relatives! Germany is not a safe country anymore. You know what, I've recently watched a vid by two guys, both born in German to foreign parents. They OPENLY said, your guest used to respect you when they were kids back in the 90's, but now all that respect is GONE. Why do you think this is so? My theory is, they don't want to end up like you - godless, childless and depressed with all that Weltschmerz.
And how do you want to solve all those problems you've listed when your guests' children don't strive for higher education? And when every year tens of thousands young, well-educated Germans turn back on their country? Huh?
Civilization collapse? There will be no such thing. Do you realize that it's only you Germans and other Western Europeans who bought into this new religion (because you tossed away Christianity)? Seriously, ppl need something like that, it's our human psyche. You declared Christianity obsolete, now you have your Green Deal. You found your new religion. Of course, human influence is undeniable but there are plausible theories that it's a natural cycle, too! Do you realize that the 13th and 14th centuries were even warmer than what we are experiencing now? How do you explain that?
You Germans are going from one extreme to the other. It's not just me pointing this out. Do you realize that even nations as distant as the Japanese are watching in disbelief the current situation in Germany? They don't get it why you tolerate it. Seriously, your safety is worse and worse, your industries are fleeing, your young talents are fleeing. Also, do you realize that young educated foreigners don't know about what you call "occasional crime"? They know very well and it is yet another reason why they don't choose Germany as a place to start carreer or a family.
Benjamin, I genuinely love your videos. Having lived in China as you have, I (sometimes) fear that you are guilty of what one of my bosses was on his first trip to visit me in Shanghai. As we were sitting, me with my beer, he with his unordered hot banana milkshake at the "Happy Bread Baker's Pharmacy" that had never sold pills or croissants we saw an 80 year old grandfather on a trike carting several metric tons of polystyrene along the street with his pig tailed grand daughter doing her maths homework on top of his load.....I explained to my employer that this was just his side gig in fact he was my local cicada salesman - just before we were joined by my then girlfriend (now wife) who fondly regaled us with her stories of how she used to take her pet dragonflies out for 'walks' on a string leash......anyway - my boss went a bit mad and never came back to PRC. He was over thinking it all. Not a criticism......but many Germans feel the need to try and wrestle the human experience into their world view.....no?
🤣🤣sorry I didn’t understand that. You mean people are shuts different or what?
@@britingermany Sometimes a wry shrug is as good a solution as deep contemplation. My favourite of your videos are when you come to that conclusion, particularly when infused with your sense of humour. Living in Saudi and going for regular walks in the desert where my only companions are camels those moments serve me well.
@@alexanderjaques long live the camels 😀
You've done a good job demystifying the term "expat"--which has become so loaded.
Thank you. I did my best
I applied for a job in Austria and worked there 4.5 years. Whenever a person asked if I am an expat, I answered, I am not as I have a local contract same as other Austrian.
This is the same definition that I know. Expats have contracts in their home countries!
What an interesting discussion. Never thought my interest would be held so long for a definition of expat. Well done. I am an older guy in the US and my observation here is that young people socialize more and acquire new friends and partners easily compare to people later in life who have a dwindling circle of friends and seldom acquire new ones. Germany is one of the oldest median age countries, not far behind Japan for which there have been many articles written about its aging population and worries about the consequences for its economy. Expats are not happy there either. I think the age of the expat and the age of the population of the chosen country are very big factors in the experience.
Thanks your your kind words and great point. The survey was not broken down by age. It would be really interesting to get a more detailed version maybe broken down by age or gender. I'm sure it does play a role
Very good analysis, both psychoanalytically and socioeconomically.
Thank you 😀
Changing the definition is never a solution. Germany has serious problems that they want to solve without accepting change. Best personification of Germany would be a well maintained steam engine.
Well said.
You mean just in general or specifically regarding immigration?
@@britingermany a person's mental state who says yes when asked if they are expat, and also in general, like categories against which they score a country
@@meu22422 I don’t understand what you mean…you shouldn’t categorise countries?
Yes, 84 million people are all the same!!! You don't know what you're talking about!
According to your description of expats after 3:00 the closest equivalent word in German is Gastarbeiter!
Whereever you emigrate to, surrounding yourself with a circle of folk from "back home" is a massive hindrance to integration. One reason is that every second you spend using your native tongue is missed opportunity to improve your skills in your new language. I spent four years learning German before I moved to Germany so when I arrived the basics were firmly in place and I was able to hit the ground running. Upon arrival, I spent a year working in various factories before I got a job with prospects, but I used this time well.... improving my German language skills...
@@ianpulham3624 perfect. Sounds similar to me although I did actually speak any German on arrival. I learned it mostly through working in a German environment
Perhaps I missed it, but I would have mentioned the importance of "Konsens" in professional/social situations, which might seem strange in light of the "bluntness" you touched on. Conformity is extremely important in Germany, people think more as a group than in other cultures, which a lot of expats often find difficult to adapt to.
Yes that is a good point. Individuality can be seen as disrespectful by those who favour conformity
Brazilian living in Berlin for 12+ years here.
I learned to call myself (and my wife and kids as well) expats as just a synonym for immigrants. I work in IT sector and migrated as you described: for a senio position with all setup by a big company. Due to that, I clearly know we are privileged people, with a wage within 10% highest paid, and a list of perks, helping to cause gentrification and so on.
On the other side, we remain having our minimalist lives, so we still take public transportation and dress second hand or as regular Joe, no expensive life style, but rather keeping our savings on real estate or investment so that one day we can FIRE.
Also, we tried to integrate early on, tried to learn German and mingle well where we are inserted. Learning the language for me has never been easy, and I'm still a B1 or B2 (depending on the context), even though my kids speak like natives. Otherwise we are well integrated, even though, as you said, Germans aren't easy to crack their bubbles. We mostly have friends who are immigrants as well, many of them from our same country.
Overall our experience has been good (except for my level of German), and let alone some few crazy people we met on the way, Germans are overall nice people that receive us well. At this point after 12 years, I see myself as local, I misse home Berlin when I'm abroad, and I have more reasons to remain living in Germany and defending it as my place than anywhere else. Even though I'd like to move somewhere South to that we get a bit more of Sun.
Sounds like you've made it your home 🏠
I've lived in Germany for 19 years, first 16 years was in Berlin. I have always seen myself as an immigrant. While living in Berlin I avoided "expat groups". I wanted to meet Germans and people from other parts of the world, which there are many in Berlin. I have only two or three English freinds that live in Germany. I now live in a small East German village and I'm the only English person there, hardly anyone speaks English, I kinda like that.
What I first arrived in Germany I found the bureaucracy very difficult, back then they would not speak English to me, my Anmeldung, was totally done in German, I had a freind help, even so his German was not too good. Then I needed a bank account, my first visit they said I couldn't have one because I could understand what I was signing, came back the next day with a German friend. Now my bank has employees that wear badges with, I speak English on then, the machine can be changed to English. So I think it's better for immigrants now than 19 years ago.
For my part, as a German, I prefer immigrants (legal or “illegal” doesn't matter to me) to expats. I don't like people who don't get involved in the culture and language of the other country and only temporarily seek their own advantage by studying here for free or benefiting from the job opportunities and perks - basically just sticking their toe in the water and then turning up their nose because it's supposedly too cold. You can't rely on butterflies that just flutter from one flower to the next - why should you as a local get involved with them at all, because after a while they move on because there is more nectar to be had elsewhere.
That’s fair enough…your mentality is probably one of the reasons why people struggle here as friendliness of the local population was rated as very low…but I can understand your point of view
Hi Hape. I only call someone a friend if I know I can call them at 4 a.m. and they drive 200 km, which is very few.
@@arnodobler1096 In meinem Fall gar keine mehr. Haben sich alle verabschiedet, als ich wegen chronischer Krankheit Hartz IV beantragen musste. Good riddance.
Your view is quite shocking for me to read, to be honest.
I had never thought of what you have described.
It really makes sense to me now, though, how human beings can be left isolated and lonely in Germany for very many years after moving there. I have read very, very many comments and listened to many stories about this type of horrible, deliberate exclusion and judgemental treatment.
It is a very disturbing thought for me.
I guess people are not always befriended in my country as well. I think that when people look different here, quite a few people wouldn't take the time to befriend them. Life is very busy. But usually the newcomers have a big community around them already and they appear comfortable in their own group.
It never occurred to me that a person would consciously make such a distinction and not be friendly because they might not stay in the country for a long time.
Don't you think it is great that you have an opportunity to meet an interesting person and have a bit to do with them when they are new to your area or community?
Don't you think it is
such a wonderful opportunity to be kind to someone, offer some friendship and learn a little bit about them?
I have a feeling a lot of German people think like you do. I noticed that Polish people I have met are also not friendly to strangers.
(The German people I have seen and know about who visit my country are usually exceptionally exploitative, so it can go both ways).
It leaves an unforgettably chilling feeling for me because of the coldness and total disconnect lead by one side.
I have thought a lot about various appalling experiences people have had when they moved to Germany, and the many comments made by German people regarding other human beings. I cannot begin to imagine the cruelty and selfishness of a significant proportion of the population.
I see it as selfish and inhumane that people categorize people into groups according to whether the people are worthy of any of their time
and humanity or not. (This is what I frequently hear).
It wouldn't cause widespread disconnection if only some people think like you do. But there seems to be a lot...
I couldn't bear it if the people of my country were predominantly selfcentred and judgementaljnstead of friendly and laidback. If I got that way myself, I know I would be such a mean horrible person...judging people and deciding whether or not to like them, be kind or helpful to them, just because of what their future plans are. Their plans are not very important, are they?
I have been nice to people but in some situations wish I had taken a greater interest. My 8 year old neighbour died suddenly a few weeks ago and I wish I had talked to him more when I saw him riding his bike on our street.
A bigger regret is that I didn't get the phone number of a Russian lady I met at a park. I knew she was lonely but didn't think to give her my phone number, maybe because the park was in a different area or a bit preoccupied at the time. I have thought about the people I have not kept up with and strongly regretted my inaction.
All the Russian people I have met in my country are extremely lovely people but don't know a lot of people.
I can't imagine being so restrained and limited with good vibes and kindness. Cripes!
I realise this is just a culture shock for me and there is a whole different perspective up your way that I have not really seen in my life. Also I realise there are reasons why Germans like being like that, even though it is so hard for someone with my culture and lineage to stomach.
Thankyou for explaining a way way of thinking in Germany, at least it kind of makes more "sense" to me.
I'm quite shocked that you prefer immigrants(legal or illegal). Don't you see the immigrants are mostly the less educated and culturally unfit to Germany. Your argument is that the expats are temporary in the country and you're distuebed by them. It's the immigrants that change your demographic and cultural customs
My partner & I moved to another country for a postdoc that was only supposed to last a year. We stayed a total of five years because I fell in love with the place.
I studied the language voraciously, aggressively made local and international friends, and inhaled the local culture: museums, festivals, customs, concerts. My local friends joked that they adopted me and that I was one of them now, even though my visa situation didn't reflect that. I think what I experienced was a transition from the expat to immigrant mindset. I'd found my home.
Now I consider myself a future emigrant/immigrant because when we moved back to our home country my partner was excited and I was shattered. We likely will part or go long distance because I am making preparations and trying to find work so I can go back.
As a non-native English speaker, in my mind an expat is someone whose job carries them to another country (whether it becomes permanent or not), while an immigrant is someone looking for a job in the destination country, for various reasons, but usually in search of a better life.
Yes I would agree with that. Certainly a big part of it. Having done both it’s very much preferable to move for a job than just to move and hope to get one once you’re there.
I am not sure about this, but I have been an expat in Switzerland and encountered a slight hostility against Germans. This has historical reasons and can be overcome by the right behaviour. I found very friendly Swiss people, but also heard people talk behind my back in a general unfriendly fashion. I joined a _Verein,_ and founded another one in a different city that still exists almost 30 years later.
What I learned is that, if you put a cucumber in brine, the cucumber is probably getting brined, whereas the brine does not really is getting cucumbered. So if you're an expat "get brined" and don't expect the locals to "get cucumbered".
By the way, expat is just a term without negative nor positive connotation. I had private reasons to leave Switzerland that had nothing to do with Switzerland. If I would have stayed there I probably would have become an immigrant but would never renege my German (Bavarian) heritage.
Yes I’ve heard of the Swiss hostility towards Germans. I haven’t looked into it so can’t really comment but it’s something that I hear of often
@britingermany Generally the Swiss are more polite and friendly in communication. The German 'directness' is not appreciated. And Germans don't speak Schwytzerdütsch while the Swiss speak Hochdeutsch as kind of a foreign language. So sometimes communication isn't on par.
@@rainerm.8168 Yes, these contribute. As I wrote, I'm Bavarian. We have also a lot of similar sentiments regarding the people of the north. They just seem to know everything better -- and verbalize it. I tend to investigate first, whether it is only a different approach or there are superior reasons.
Good morning Benjamin. Thanks for yet another deep and insightful thought provoking topic. Since birth I’ve lived in seven countries (if you include the two very different versions of South Africa). The country I was born in long ago ceased to exist and seven countries arose out of the ashes. The city I grew up in has been renamed. Possibly like yourself, I don’t know how best to define myself (expat/ migrant/ immigrant) - I therefore use my nationality as my primary identifier and then add my residency status.
PS. Love the wave at the end.
Enjoy the rest of your Sunday. Hopefully it’s also dry and sunny by you today
Zoltán
Thank you Zoltan. You must have a wealth of experiences to share. Sounds very tumultuous
Nuanced points made. I like that. I think there's the 'current political climate' dimension with sentiment, in the whole Europe essentially, shifting to the right. These terms have different interpretation depending on the economical and political conditions.
On a side note, while I live in Germany for 7 years now, I still think someone needs to make a video about the false “polite vs honest” dichotomy.
Thank you. Yes polite vs. Honest is something that continues to come up
Looking forward to "polite vs honest" video! 👍
In my mind the term "expat" doesn't bring up an image of someone who is sent to a foreign country by his company. I came to associate "expats" primarily with freelancers and remote workers who move between countries to enjoy different landscapes and cultures. They are, in a way, privileged because their job allows travel and they already have the money to start off and to use as backup. They don't move out of necessity, but for their own enjoyment, or, one might say, "fulfilment".
As a German, I can actually confirm. I feel ashamed by the way we deal with internationals, expats and immigrants.
I am a student at a German university and even the people who supposedly are the most open minded (by their own admission), leftists, are very uncomfortable dealing with people who don’t speak German. One of my friends is organising queer bar evenings and told me that he is the only one of the team who speaks to internationals, while the rest doesn’t want to, supposedly because they feel insecure about their English skills.
And when I personally visit some of the events that are meant for local Germans and international students to mingle, I am often one of the few native speakers (>5) who joins more than 20 internationals. WHO ACTUALLY WANT TO MEET GERMANS AND LEARN GERMAN!! But they don’t meet enough of us and end up in highly international friend groups with few Germans among them. It’s very sad.
We need to make more of an effort to welcome others and move beyond our own complex of not speaking English or other languages perfectly!
Not to mention the racism that many openly display.
But many are also uncomfortable with people of different cultures in general. And the only way they could move beyond that is by dealing with these other cultures. Which most don’t.
A tip for internationals: find one of those rare German extroverts and go from there. Also: unusual (not weird in a creepy way) people are also often a good entry. They have often dealt with people who didn’t welcome them because they are different, so they had to find other unusual people to built their social circle. People who are different understand the experience of being different and are often more open minded.
Also, as many here already recommended: join a club or „Verein“. Get a hobby. You’ll meet many people there on a regular basis and you have a shared interest to talk about - that’s how friendships blossom!
Good luck to all of you and again - SORRY. We truly need to do better!
Das mit den Vereinen ist so eine Sache ... sie erscheinen mir immer lediglich wie Anhängsel politischer Parteien - Mitglieder der CDU sind im Kneippverein, Mitglieder der SPD sind bei den Hasenzüchtern, aber niemals bei den Kneippianern, und wenn einer in beiden Vereinen ist, hat er auch beide Parteibücher und ist wahrscheinlich Unternehmer...
That's one thing about Vereine ... They always seem to me to be merely appendages of political parties - members of the CDU are in the Kneippverein, members of the SPD are in the rabbit breeders, but never in the Kneippians, and if someone is in both associations, he also has both party books and is probably an entrepreneur...
English skills are a lot more patchy in Germany than many think. Blame dubbing/voiceovers. Yes you should learn German, but what does that mean on an 18-month expat project? Getting by or extensive social life only with local you may have little time for anyway?
@@timhill9189 One other problem is that Germans do need a lot of time to warm up with you and are not that much into chit-chat. Many expats who have been sent by an enterprise stay for a year or even shorter and that makes it difficult to really get closed friends in the. German style. Germans will be much more hesitant to call you a friend, you will probably stay an acquaintance, they use the word friends different to US-citizens, for example...
+
great video like always greetings from aschaffenburg ;D
Thank you. Greetings back 🙏
Greetings from Laufach, near Aschaffenburg 😂
chuckles...waves over the 2 hills ;D
From what I’ve noticed over the years, people mostly hate Germany for:
1. Discrimination / racism, which is understandable. Nothing to add here
2. Lack of friends. People come to study here from their home countries where they had all kind of friends and people to hang out with. They need new friends here AND there’s also the language barrier.
3. If people come here to study, they may have never been living an “adult” life which now they’re forced to do. They have to figure it all out on their own, mostly in a foreign language that loves getting more complicated the more official it gets, so that can be frustrating.
4. Poor technological advances. Sending letters? Fax? DSL internet?
5. Germans may sound rude or direct, especially to native English speakers. An English native speaker would speak more flowerly, not directly just answer questions by simply saying “yes” or “no”. My American boyfriend and I notice how directly we just say things in German and how translating those sentences somewhat literally into English might sound rude, for example saying “ok bye!” sounds rude but “ok tschüss!!!” does not.
6. Language barrier. Germans actually are more fluent and comfortable in… German. I only know like two Germans who are fluent in English, can be funny in English and know how to apply different registers like an English native speaker would. If you don’t speak German then you’re limited to know a German person just as much as their English lets them and as much as the German person is willing to speak English.
7. Wanna-be entrepreneurs who want to blame their lack of success on workers’ rights and taxes.
8. Annoying unnecessarily complicated and rigid bureaucracy.
"more flowery" - yes, my ex bf who was German would go nuts and just ask why I could not just say what I meant
Regarding friends and learning German, when I went to university, RARELY did Germans speak to me unless I was in an English literature or German for foreigners course. In my sociology and pedagogue courses, NONE of the Germans would partner with me. When it happened, it was because the tutor put us together.
When I wrote my papers in German, my German professor would NEVER correct them, offer feedback nor return them. If I were in a work group at uni or even in my job, my course mates and colleagues took exceptional glee in correcting my German to the point of being rude and insulting.
One student in our course was taken aback by a German stating before the lecture hall of his peers that his paper despite having some good points was poorly written and did not reflect that of a university student. The author who lost face in front of his peers hit his German critic square in the face. Mayhem ensued and the students not the tutor pulled the two apart. After the German picked himself off the ground with a bloodied face, the police were called. What was interesting was none of the students left the course. When the police arrived, he asked for witnesses and I along with several others stepped forward. We all agreed that the student hit his German colleague.
Then I told the police that in no uncertain terms would foreigners accept Germans insulting them in public spaces because according to Section 185 of the Criminal Code (Strafgesetzbuch, StGB) an insult that is malicious gossip or defamation of character can be prosecuted. Because the the student who assaulted his fellow course mate was being heard first, his position would be entered first on the record, meaning he could formulate his reasons for using force. The police were not happy that I knew the German law, but so are we sociologists. Plus, every person is given a BGB and StGB that outline German law in immigration course. In conclusion, both parties decided to apologize and not press charges.
However, in class discussion, our professor actually declined to discuss the matter further. We took offense, especially the foreigners in the class. One student stood up and told the teacher bluntly that foreign students were never "enough" in Germany regardless of how talented we were. That a German felt it within their right to insult his fellow student's who wasn't a native speaker paper was elitism at its highest. And that German professors were the laziest when it came to helping improve their students' paper writing and German skills, believing that it wasn't the professor's position to help the student rather than the student. The hypocrisy of the situation was pointed out and this situation hasn't changed in the over 20 years that I have worked at Germany universities. If you can believe it, writing labs have only opened up in the last decade at German university because the professors complained students' writing had declined. This is a HUGE issue: the expectation from Germans that long term immigrants speak the language at native levels all the while thinking critiquing someone helps them improve.
Another issue of these surveys is that they show mostly white males in top teared jobs who are leading very privileged lives. There experience is yarns apart from those who study and those who live here as immigrants. If a person comes from Turkey, the Middle East, and Africa along with single working mothers and their children, these groups are discriminated against in housing, education, and employment opportunities. These surveys overlook the point race and class are highly correlated with educational, social mobility, and employment outcomes in Germany, where white Germans are favored above all others and obtaining a German passport does not improve one's employability nor housing chances if one is a person of color. The exception is Asians--the middleman minority which are ALWAYS preferred because or racism and the stereotype that they are more intelligent over an equally qualified Turk or African across the board in housing and employment.
People need to tell the truth about the networking chances among expats if one is a woman, person of color or single parent. If immigrants come to Germany without a work contract, life is extremely difficult. Likewise, many expats, especially males, will not tell women and minorities of available jobs within their companies nor introduce them to work colleagues or HR personnel. We are seen as competition and not "belonging" to the very male hierarchy. Hence why it is very seldom that women and POC hang out at expats functions because aside for a one night stand, there is seldom anything on offer. People are better off going on LinkedIn or Indeed for job offers.
Least we forget: if a person comes over with a contract to work in Germany, his or her credentials will be accepted at that company. If a person wants to change companies, immigrants are often met with the reality that their diplomas and certificates will not be accepted in Germany, making them unemployable. The exceptions are Ivy League diplomas, MBAs, IT, construction and medical personnel i.e. doctors, nurses, careers, dental technicians. This fact is the number one reason for the unhappiness with Germany who openly advertises for qualified workers, but with limited intentions of actually hiring those that they get. No amount of healthcare, Kindergeld, social net, and free education can replace being gainfully employed. Instead, the belief that many immigrants are living off the dole is prevasive and that these immigrants should go home. This is what people need to be talking about instead of doing another survey on how unhappy Germany is. There is a need for "Aufklärung" of why immigrants aren't happy and how Germans can make them feel more at home instead of accusing immigrants of living on the dole.
@@alia9087 haha since I am introverted and used to the German way of life, I am not used to flowery language, either.
On my first trip to the U.S. I would be the most thankful by just saying “Oh, thank you! Bye!” and answering questions with short “yes” or “no” or calling food that I really liked “nice”. Lol. “Oh this is nice, thank you”. My boyfriend told me that to an American that does not really sound like I am very excited about that food, so now I know to be “more enthusiastic” about things and use more words.
After a while I got used to greeting people with “hi, how are you?”, replying “Oh, I’m great / fantastic, how are you?”, thanking people by saying “Oh thank you so much. I really appreciate it” or calling food amazing or delicious if I really liked it lol. I told my boyfriend after two weeks in the U.S. that if we stayed there any longer I would end up saying things like “y’all go ahead and have yourselves a blessed day now, okay???” 🤣
@@fredrika27 Oh, you are right. Bureaucracy is another reason why people hate Germany, understandably. Everything else I said seems to be falling under the “discrimination / racism” category.
@ssergium.4520 The bureaucracy is absolutely horrible and doesn't bend. Example: becoming qualified as a teacher. It's nex to impossible, and if you do land a job as a substitute, you're mistreated!
I just recently out of Germany to Spain. On paper I was very good integrated, came very young, could speak the language, went to college there, had a few friends and quite a good job. However I never felt integrated, I "functioned" just like anybody else but somehow I was always an outsider. For me deal breakers were 1. The weather 2. Glass ceiling for foreigners, its impossible to make career in Germany, you will always be 2nd to your german peers plus the whole society mentality made me mad. People used to tell me that I needed more time to integrate completely but after 10+ years I was quite sure its not the place where I wanted to be. I took advantage of working for a multinational and moved to Spain, as any country it will have its difficulties but at least people smile and the sun shines. That for me is already a leap jump in quality of life.
An expat does not only live outside of the original country but does not plan to locate permanently somewhere else. If you want to establish yourself in Germany or elsewhere then you are a general emigrant/immigrant, not just an expat.
I've lived in Germany for over 45 years. I came straight from university with the intention of getting work experience abroad and then going back to the UK, then ended up staying. I never considered myself an expat, though, even in the early years and I actively avoided the expat community because I wanted to integrate as fast as possible.
I did have one huge advantage, though. I already spoke German fluently from having done exchanges and holiday jobs in Germany and studying it to university level. And the German company I worked for helped with all the formalities right at the beginning. These were less stringent for members of the EEC (even before EU freedom of movement) than for people from other countries.
In a new Country you need to learn new Things. Nothing will be easy . I am german and made myself a learn something new every Year.
With a smile and a laugh you can do everthing. 😊
For sure
Interesting. But you went on an extensive take on the term expat rather than the narrower focus of the title. From my perspective it's not strictly racial but it is a term employed by westerners(who are still mostly of white European origin) living in and working in developing countries even where they go there for purely financial reasons or lifestyle reasons like any other immigrant. Unless you are sent by your company on a short 5-7 year rotation overseas - to me you are an immigrant. The funniest thing is when American retirees permanently living in Thailand because they can't afford to live in the States claiming they are expats when they literally are economic refugees.
Yes I did so intentionally because I knew that people would rant about it if I didn't address it. It's frustrating but You can't use the word expat online without being called accused of...well a lot of things....
As a New Zealander, I feel much less a foreigner here in Germany than I did in the UK
Expat - expatriate - is the superior term Brits use to describe themselves or people from the Anglosphere when they emigrate to another country, meanwhile calling everyone else immigrants. Aka British exceptionalism.
Immigrant is a dirty word in the British dictionary.
It's interesting that it's OK for expats (Brits) not want to integrate into the local culture when they emigrate, but they are angry when other nations do it in Britain, further confirming the colonial and exceptionalist mindset.
The highlight of this double-standard and exceptionalism was when the permanent British migrants into Spain voted for Brexit, because they were against immigration (into the UK).
Edit: I'm no (modern) Guardian reader at all, and I'm against political correctness, but I largely agree with their article, except I'd swap "white people" for "Brits".
Yes, I understand the use of the word when moving abroad for a work assignment, but Brits use "expat" for anyone from the Anglosphere moving abroad for any reason for any period of time, e.g. a British builder moving to Spain permanently and looking for work locally is still called an expat, whereas a Polish corporate worker on a 3 year assignment in the UK will be called an immigrant.
No hard feelings, I like Brits, and Britain used to rule the world, so that's the reason behind it, it's one of the British quirks, you're only human.
You don’t think it has anything to do with work?
@@britingermanymost migrants move for economical reasons, people move abroad for work. Plenty of EU immigrants into the UK had previously moved here only temporarily to earn, save and move back home.
Also, British pensioners in Spain are called expats, even though they had permanently moved abroad, not for work.
@@britingermany Can you explain?
@@britingermany I've checked the definitions expat vs immigrant and generally - the main difference between an expat and an immigrant is, like you said, an expat usually lives in a new country temporarily, while an immigrant intends to stay permanently, but I don't think this is how Brits use these terms - Brits are always "expats" even after 20 years abroad in the same country, or they go from an "expat" to a "resident", but they're never an "immigrant".
This is probably one of the sources of the irritation people feel with the word expat. The retired English people, living in the south of Europe, voting for Brexit because of the immigrants. Well, they found out the hard way.
I think in the USA the term "ex-patriot" (expat for short) refers specifically to people who renounce US citizenship when they move abroad, typically because they don't want to be subject to US federal and (in some cases) state taxes elsewhere in the world. People who simply move abroad for work are not ex-patriots, just emmegrants or US citizens living abroad. They still file US taxes, and they still could theoretically be drafted to fight in a war.
That's possibly a misunderstanding. Expat is just a short version of expatriate, not of ex-patriot. Most US citizens working for or serving in the US armed forces here in Germany and Europe in general are being referred to and refer to themselves as expats. And correctly so because they're bound to a work contract related to their home country.
I agree with your definition of expat, as well as your suggestion of joining a Verein/club. I'm an Australian living in Kassel mit eine deutsche Frau. The intention and commitment to stay makes all the difference.
I am not an expat. I am an immigrant from Finland.
That's great to hear
The term "Expat" comes from colonial times and also has an air of speriority over the locals. I notice that powerfull countries seem to be on the bottom of the rating and in the top 10 there are mostly less important countries. Maybe if someone calls himself an "Expat" he prefers less powerfull countries to keep his feeling of superiority?
I suppose it’s possible. However I think people are more concerned with things like cost of living and quality of life. Coat of living in “powerful countries” as you call them is very high.
For context, in Polish there isn't really such term, everyone's an immigrant/emigrant.
When you put "expatriate" into a translator it says "outcast, outlaw, exile". It tells you everything about Polish history, culture and attitudes towards emigrants.
Lack of "for English press 1" - this is what annoys me often. Even calling institutions in a big city. The Germans just don't think about us.
New video! well,that's a very controversial topic, i predict looots of user comments ,cheers from Görlitz🎉
I think Expat used to mean what you said but now there are so many people choosing to live in a country other than their home land that I don't think it is exclusive to those who are "placed" their because of work, perhaps unwillingly
The term "expat" is misused and not really that relevant any more. How are pensioners moving to Spain for a better climate "expats", for example?
Yes I agree on that front. I would not call them expats.
@@britingermany I would actually single them out as the quintessential example of an 'expat'. They are not 'climate refugees'. :D
White = expat
Others = immigrant
I’m Mexican…. here a lot of Americans live without paying taxes and they name themselves expats …
Interestingly, you brought up this point,
And you are mostly right about everything,
There is an absolutely clear difference between expats and immigrants,
As an expat myself for 15 years, who lived in 8 countries, its always my company send me abroad for a specific period, so we don't move ourselves to immigrant but keep on moving for our jobs,
It's completely different from someone who is moving for a better life,
Now as a diplomatic staff do the same expat experience on a whole new level,
The funny thing is I have been with InterNatation for 10 years and also served as an ambassador of community in 3 countries, so yes I understand and see the difference between the two quite well,
Cool. Why do you think there is so much misunderstanding around this? Have people at internations talked about this?
So I may have been using the term "expat" without knowing that it could be racist. I called myself this too, because my mum called herself that when we moved to South America.
I was applying it to all English speaking people who move to other countries where English is not the local language. (oh well)
As to why expats do not rank Germany well it has a lot to do with the questionaire they are given. Have you seen any of them? the one used by the Guardian has a question that asks:
"Have you been invited by locals to their homes?" Most of the time the answer is "no"
That alone will set Germany and Austria back several levels.
After 45 years in Austria I have noticed that even among themselves, Austrians do not invite people they don't know well to their homes (meals, festivities etc.) BUT they do invite each other out to cafes and restaurants and such, and do so quite willingly. This is not asked in the questionaire.
In my first year here, I tended to make friends with other "expats", but once I learned German and then when our daughter arrived there was a great shift in friendships associated with parenthood. Many of these have lasted over 40 years. Cannot say much the same for the friendships dating from my time in the USA. Can count those on one hand.
Kulmbach right at the beginning :)) I’ve lived there for a while!
To be honest I feel like the expat/immigrant question is ultimately a meaningless distinction and a distraction in the context of discussions around immigration and integration in Germany.
Undoubtedly there are double standards with the use of the word and its exact definition is up for debate. I myself have worked on a temporary contract in Germany since I arrived. I plan to leave for a number of reasons. I always have described myself as an immigrant because I just don’t care about distinguishing myself in that way.
The reason I find the term a distraction in the context of Germany is that whilst the term has problematic connotations in the context of coloniser/colony dynamics, they don’t apply here. Immigrants to Germany cannot possibly be construed as colonisers and Germany has never been colonised in its history. Indeed Germany has been a coloniser for the last 800 or so years up until recently, first with the Ostsiedlung, then with the colonies in Africa and Asia, and finally with the Nazi German wars of genocide.
Getting upset with with immigrants calling themselves expats in Germany is just ridiculous and in my experience serves mostly to distract from real criticism of German integration policy and attitudes . If someone dares to call themselves an expat whilst giving real and common criticism of Germany they are immediately written off. It’s additionally an outlet for that great German pastime of shitting on the US in particular and Anglo-Saxon culture in general (whilst still worshipping it because contemporary German cultural output is largely shite). It’s further a means of turning immigrants/expats/whatever against each other when really we should be sticking together in a culture and society that is at least moderately hostile to us.
Well in my experience people who call themselves immigrants rather than expats don’t in any way fare any better than so called “expats”. If anything the immigrants are more likely to be non white and more likely therefore to experience racism from Germans. These people who learn the language still won’t be integrated into society nor have any German friends and will still experience casual discrimination in the work place and housing market, as well as in the street.
So to me this discussion is complete nonsense. There is a huge problem with integration in Germany and most of the blame lies with the prevailing German culture which is ultimately rather chauvinistic in its outlook. So let’s focus on that, not go down the blind alley of convincing ourselves the US and UK are worse (they obviously are better at integration-ask yourself when will Germany have a Turkish chancellor??) because of some stupid terminology they use sometimes that has nothing to do with Germany, and not waste time on this stupid terminology debate that only serves to help those who refuse to accept that Germany must change.
It is not meaningless when people demand that you stop using a term because they find it offensive...
@@britingermany I said it is a meaningless conversation in the context of Germany and German integration. It's a side show to deflect criticism and used as a stick to beat a certain type of immigrant and an outlet for German anti-Americanism. The term isn't great but when literal neo-Nazis are on the rise in Germany (a country that in any case has a huge racism problem), that some immigrants call themselves expats is just not a huge issue. I explained that all quite clearly in my comment. Thanks.
@@stuartwalker8755Anti-Americanism? Why? Americans too loud at Oktoberfest? Too many US fighter jets crisscrossing their sky and protecting their airspace against their wishes?
People always want to label 🏷 everything 🙄 But reality is much more diverse, definitions and meanings change like life does. 😉 I call myself a "German expat in Brazil" because it is the briefest way to do in English. Until today I wasn't aware of the debate. I guess you analyzed it very good. I moved to Brazil in order to stay for ever. Thus I'm more an immigrant than an expat 😅 OK. My personality and my situation remain the same 😅
Yes. Don’t worry and just keep enjoying your life. I only really was made aware of this debate since starting this channel
@@britingermany 👍😅😊
There is another dimension - for example living in another part of Europe as a European. There was always a distinction here in Germany between expats (temporary, slightly distant even colonial touch), long-termers (sometimes even saying you should integrate totally and maybe minimize contact with your own culture) and internationalists (who are between the two). The latter is more of a reality in the modern world and should be encouraged.
I’ve met many people who call themselves European.
@britingermany yes - my point here is that there are 'bubble' expats and international expats who, if living in Germany, may have German friends alongside people from all over the world. Obviously, this is more a thing in larger cities. Such situations are increasingly common. It puts the mental model of the 'expat' in a different light. Speaking English with your international group would hardly be sticking with your own closed group.
If I were to suggest a follow-up episode, it would be titled like, something to the effect of: "Why Germans rate Germany so poorly (prepare yourselves, indeed)"
Wow, I had no idea "expat" was such a loaded word. Thanks for the deep dive!
Yeah it took me by surprise as well
German has a term for expat. However, it is negatively connotated: Gastarbeiter
Why is the country an immigrant wants to live in always blamed if English is not spoken there?
The British never tried to learn the local languages during their colonial times and now the whole world, like the colonies, is supposed to speak English.
Its Immigrant NOT expat.
Expat are permanent tourists who move to poorer countries to make their money last longer.
Immigrants are people who move to wealthier countries.
Brits in Germany are immigrants.
It is true that there is a general rudeness in the country, that german bureaucracy is insanely slow and nerve-wracking and that the internet connections are still too slow and unreliable. On the other hand, the argument about payment options couldn't be more wrong. Cashless payment has become so widespread that even the public transport network in Hamburg, for example, has scrapped the cash payment on busses. In the last couple of years, I almost ceased to use cash in daily life (except for my turkish haidresser). Language barrier ? For English speakers ? In a country where almost everybody has a least some basic knowledge of English. There are enough people in Germany who get employed without speaking German. Why would somebody move to any given country for a longer period without prior learning of the respective language. Sounds kinda silly to me. I have been learning Japanese since last christmas and I'm still at it not in order to be able to live there but solely for the purpose of visiting !!! Japanese uses two syllabic scripts and a bunch of chinese characters. German doesn't, it's related to English, German orthography is rather straightforward and a breeze in comparison to English, so don't tell me that it's too difficult to be mastered by a speaker of English. All in all, there are some social and cultural issues and deficiencies that result in the deserved low ranking. However, expats in general should step up their game and work on their mindset instead of expecting foreign countries to be like a modern shopping mall or an airport lounge.
We immigrated to France🇫🇷🇪🇺 from the UK in 1989 (aged 27 ) in search of a better life and we found it.
We had been expats in Saudi Arabia from February 1986 to November 1988. Being unable to permanently settle in Saudi Arabia (residency being dependent on having a job/sponsor), we defined ourselves as expatriates because we would have to "go back one day".
Now we are French/British dual nationals and have been here for 35 years. We consider ourselves first-generation immigrants and are fully integrated into local society, having less than a handful of British acquaintances.
There are less and less of these as time goes on, as those who arrived in France later in life die off, those who felt uncomfortable as British third-country nationals in the EU "went back", and those who would like to immigrate freely now find themselves locked-in on Prison Island 🏝️ 🇬🇧.
+1 Interesting video 👍👍.
Call it as it is: migrant
seems to me the difference between expat and immigrant is clear? expat is someone who still has the possibility or willingness to return to his home country, that’s why he’s “a person living abroad”, an immigrant has no possibility or willingness to return to original country, like it would be very weird to call a north Korean defector an “expat” as that would imply he would ever return to North Korea and face death penalty
Right exactly
With a foot in the UK, Ireland, Greece and Germany I'm a 4X pat.
Germans simply don't like ambiguity and won't put up with that passive aggressive thing typical of the Anglosphere, as simple as that.
Germans make passive aggression a national sport tbh
Absolute genuine reply... which gets no replies because anglos are unwieldy introverted in an unattractive bubble.
Your question "What is an expat? Should we stop using this term?" is important: you are an immigrant in the understanding of most if not all continental Europeans. Yes, you can use the term expat in certain situations (corporations) and explain it with many well weighted words, but with the locals, the term "expat" is not really understood and, therefore, you are an immigrant. My situation: German born in Switzerland, thus I was an immigrant in Switzerland, and going to Germany recently I was an immigrant, too, since from my accent people perceived me not being a German. So, philosophically discussing the term "expat" is an academic exercise, but irrelevant to your living situation with regular people perceiving you as an immigrant (one of the "good immigrants" - if you would be an Afghan, things would be much different) and this is what matters.
Well the survey was a survey of expats, not immigrants. That why I had to go into so much detail
@@britingermany you yourself said "expat" is not precisely defined. Thus, the survey is a bit - imprecise. But I fully agree, as an immigrant in Germany (with the "expats" being part of the immigrants) your life is rather austere in many ways - but most what you mentioned as challenges for this subset of the immigrants apply to most if not all Germans as well. For instance, a Northern German will never feel at home in Bavaria (humor is much different, for instance), will rarely find friends, faces the same troubles with administrations and authorities. It is austere to all people.
@@nicolasfrankboehmer2240 interesting. So you would largely agree with these survey findings? One of my theories was that immigrants might see it slightly different than expats but I guess if native germans have these same issues I wonder what is going on...
Ex patriot has to be seen as a true statement, no racial flags here. For example, when people move to another country, they are the minority. If you go to another country,you are the odd one out. I agree the racial label is totally weak,possibly pathetic in many ways.
Expat = expatriate (somebody residing outside his native country), not "ex-patriot". It's got nothing to do with patriotism.
A very good topic to talk about, so thank you for this video in particular 😊
I can understand that the term ‘expat’ can be perceived as somewhat racist nowadays, because from my experience it’s generally the usually Tory voting Brits with holiday homes in Spain or France who call themselves that.
I have become friends with people from all over the world, but only Brits would call themselves expats.
What’s more, I wasn’t allowed to call myself an expat when I relocated from Germany to the UK for work and my then partner. I would be told that while I may be a legal migrant, an expat I was not -despite fitting the description.
It still has a G’schmäckle of British exceptionalism for me to be honest, and I’ve been back in Germany for more than 6 years now.
Frankly, I personally would prefer not having/needing a term for people who relocated to another country altogether.
Life is hard for all of us and we’re all just trying to survive, no matter where we are.
After all, there’s just one human race, living on one planet earth. There are variations in skin colour and facial features, but underneath the skin we’re all the same everywhere.
Why make life complicated like we’re doing right now?
Very interesting. How were you not allowed to call yourself an expat? People actually said point blank - you are not an expat? Don’t get me wrong it could well be the case I just find it hard to believe. Maybe it’s different in the U.K. who knows. Do you make the distinction in German or is more just Immigranten/Ausländer?
@@britingermanyI was not asked, but where I live, Expats are those send here for work by their company or their country (diplomats) but already know they will only stay for a limited period of time.
Nationality does not matter.
We have some British, some French, American , Japanese and even Turkish (working at the embassy) expats living here - and immigrants (here to stay) from even more Nations.
American here. In my social circle several friends have semi-retired or retired early to Mexico, Spain, and Portugal. They self-identify as expats but have no intention of returning permanently to the US. As you stated they are more accurately described as immigrants but - in their minds - that term has a "lower-class" implication.
No, it’s because they don’t want to give up their American citizenship or identity. They are living in another country but are still Americans. If they receive citizenship in their new country, they should identify as immigrants.
Immigrants in the United States are seen as economic migrants who are coming to depend of the system. An expat does not do this, they are self sufficient. It’s the same thing in Europe then.
That#s an interesting point. I suppose it's true that some expats, especially those working for the government are essentially treated as legal still their their country of origin. As in the pay taxes in the country of origin not residence.
Correct, this is why they don’t call themselves immigrants when retiring abroad.
Thank you for this illuminating video. If somebody moves from A to B he will be a foreigner, alien and immigrant at B and in principal always remain so. He will be a national or local of A and likely always consider himself so. But people of A might not like him for leaving and so he becomes an emigrant. When he notices that he doesn't belong to either place how does he refer to himself? The term expat seems perfect. As to the unfriendliness of Germans, they treat themselves the same. Northern Germans bemoan the fact that they always remain mere "Zugezogene" when they move to the countryside in Bavaria or Baden-Würtemberg.
Yes I’ve heard that too. You will only truly belong if you were born in the place.
@@britingermany It was like that in Hereford in the UK also though. So many had never left the town and viewed anyone new as foreigners
@@alia9087 I think it is a similar story all over the world
I moved to HK as immigrant, I am white, meaning that I applied for a job and I was hired. So no special expat packages and privileges. And yes, abroad colored people are seen as immigrants and tbh white people tend not to integrate and have that annoying attitude of thinking they are special. After many years I am now a permanent resident and I mostly hanged out with local communities and it is a great experience. Also difficult since, as immigrant, you have to figure out all by yourself. So when they see me and they say "you are an expat" I always proudly answer that I am an immigrant.
“White people tend not to integrate.”…wow that is a blanket statement if ever I heard one…imagine if you said that about any other race…🤔🤔
The mere concept of working in another country requires an expert or high level position to be accepted by the majority of countries .
Both times I moved for longer periods (2-5 years) the process to get the working permit took months and even layers being involved for the USA.
There is a difference for those like me planning of being in a different country for a period of time and those working permanently and hence aiming for a residence.
After all I agree - the expat is different from an immigrant. And immigration is an essential way of getting younger people in your country.
Some countries are choosy of whom they let in (NewZeasland, Aistralia, USA) and select those that will fit their need of labor forces.
Germany did make and still lacks imho this attitude which has to be looked at separately from fugitives which are forced to emigrate (war, religious reason, fear of repression, even economic reasons)
Fugitive is a person running away from law I think you meant refugee!
@@suheelhussain4975 You are right! My mistake
I actually had no idea the expression is controversial. I probably should meet more expats, because generally they are just Ausländer. When I get to know them better they easily turn into Mr. or Ms. XY or just Harry or Leila.
As I understand it, an expat is someone that works temporarily abroad, but there’s nothing in this description that needs the employer to be in another country. And sometimes a multinational based in country A will have workers from country B, working at its headquarters in country A.
This implies that seasonal workers are actually expats. When we start calling them expats the problem will be solved?
Interesting topic. I never think that far. For me, an expat is only if the company still keep his employment contract at his home country and send him aboard, pay for his moving cost, his apartment, and extra expenses. In other case, not an expat in my personal view. :-) sorry to use he. I mean he or she.
The german term "Auswanderer", (Away-goer) might be less loaded with value then Expat is. I don't think there is a german term, for leaving the country for 5 years with the intention to return. That's just working abroad, most often for a german employer.
Expat is just a migrant. And if some football or basketball player, or even you, keep migration in mind - they did once, they can do again - they are mentally not accepted as permanent fellow citizen, more as visitor. That's different to refugees - it's more conclusive they stay forever.
You are able to leave, you have to emphasize you have no intention to do so.
Auslandsaufenthalt, Auslandseinsatz would probably be appropriate German terms to describe the situation of an expatriate.
@@michaelburggraf2822 that's really something I wouldnt use for 5 years, but it's definitly temporary and most often with strong links home.
I enjoyed your video, thank you. Here are my thoughts ...
I moved permanently from the UK to Austria six years ago. I always refer to myself as a migrant. Personally, I would always consider anyone else who moving to a different country for any reason to be a migrant too.
If (for example) the Daily Mail would kindly relabel migrants coming into the UK as expats then maybe I could also relabel myself as an expat. But the Mail's mindset seems (in my opinion) to be: migrants = inferior foreign criminals swarming into Blighty vs. expats = hard-working honest Brits moving abroad together with their cultural superiority with them. That's NOT my opinion, by the way. But it's certainly the impression I get from the less progressive sectors of the British press.
Who author consider an expat or immigrant? Is it what country they are coming from?
Thanks for your vid. I guess that especially English speaking countries will be in the highest rank for expats, simply due to the fact that their main language is English. Germany naturally and traditionally does not speak English as a first language. More and more, internationally, German is less and less used. It used to be strong at least in science but English has also taken over here. And I am not really sure that Germany is per se really a country for migration, even though it has opened up a lot. We have a very special relationship with our past, we have a very special view on nationality and a very special underlying topic of values that are all not that easy to grasp for people who do not really want to go deep but just take "a sip" of German culture. Germany also hardly ever had colonies and therefore not many experiences with expats - it also has never really been a colony. And many Germans are not even conscious about the fact that they HAVE a special culture.
I have never thought of myself as an Expat. Mostly because I find the term to be vaguely racist and reminds me of the Norman Tebbit Cricket test, which mentioned that various communities who lived in the UK, but were not born there, should support England at cricket matches, not, for example, Pakistan. Presumably Norman had never been to an Irish pub in Germany or Spain, when the football was on, and found hordes of English people still supporting England, even though they no longer lived in that country. He was wrong. People should be allowed to show support for whomever they please, even if it doesn't please the Lady he worked for. Personally, I watch the football very rarely, and always support England. It's where I was born, I am attached to that country even if I disagree with a lot of what goes on there (I won't mention Brexit).
But yeah, Expat, it does give of 'entitled' vibes, whether or not that's true, I don't know. I don't know all Expats. It is I guess a matter of self-perception; I don't see myself as an expat, I am an emigrant who has decided for various reasons to live in Germany. That's where my self-perception exists. Each to his own, but Expat doesn't feel like the person I am.
Germany can be a tough place to make friends. The Sie/Du thing can make stuff complex, but once you do get to know Germans, it's easy to see that they have, perhaps, more similarity to English people than most other nations. Their sense of humour can be a little on the dark side, but I like that, and their belief that if something is on a piece of paper, then it must eventually come to pass, is fairly self destructive. Otherwise, I find the Germans to be very much like the English, except without the negative mental hang-ups on public nudity, which is just the English being Squeamish.
Germany also has some odd, irritating quirks, shops not opening until 10 (what the hell is that about) and pubs not opening until 7 (after work pint? Not happening), and there is this worrying political leaning towards the right wing. But, in general, day to day, I find Germany no less an irritating place to live than England. At least they seem to largely be free of this awful class warfare, where anyone who went to Public school is deemed important, and anyone who didn't just doesn't count for much. The times I have spoken to a posh person, and the second they hear my working class accent, you can see them start to mentally disengage.
I have even witnessed posh English people refuse to acknowledge the presence of a working class person standing right in front of them, simply because they can get away with such vile behaviour. In that light, Germany arrogance is somewhat more palatable.
Anyway, cool video. Nice production values and great audio. Mostly I use your videos as a sort of audio-pod-cast to listen to while doing other stuff, so keep up the good work.
Im Brazilian. Live in German. I had to learn German.. took me forever. Basicaly I agree with everythig u say
I have also been determined to integrate with the locals, learn the language to a high standard. I think the ones who call themselves ex-pats do no bother with all that. They live in their own bubble. A lot would not want to be called immigrants because of the way immigrants are being othered by right wing governments and parties.
I’m not sure it’s that. I think it’s more the case of if you have a limited work assignment (1/2/3 years) and the arrangement is that you will be posted elsewhere once it comes to an end your prioritise are very different.
@@britingermany some of them call themselves ex pats even when they live their and are retired. Spain is full of them.
@@neilfazackerley7758 yes I suppose the issue often hinges on citizenship. That’s the legal final hurdle
@@britingermany which I am currently waiting to hear about.
I don't think the term expat has to do necessarily with work. I've lived in Mexico, Finland, Austria, Turkey, and Cambodia over the past 20 years. I have never intended to get citizenship in any of these countries, so I've always thought of myself as an expat. To me, and immigrant is one who intends to become a citizen of their new country. Maybe we just need a new word.
Well I would say it’s the temporary element which separates them. But as you can see there doesn’t seem to be a definition which everyone agrees on
So do you believe you are not a migrant in, say, Niedersachsen because you come from a culture similar to Germany’s? Migration across the EU by EU citizens is still migration, no?
Ich liebe Deutschland, es ist wunderbar.
The only contexts I've com across people using the term expat have been Anglophones living somewhere else for work related reasons with the implied intention to return to the motherland.
I've never heard of a Japanese or Chinese person refer to themselves as expats. Maybe the negative connotation stems from this perception which I would surmise is not uncommon.
And, from the perspective of a local in the Ruhr region (which is kind of midway inbetween all the different mentalities you will find in .de) - nimm das Stop-Schild aus dem Gesicht (take the stop sign away from your face).
If you want to integrate with the local crowd, be approachable and be interested. If you whole body language suggest "leave me the f alone", that's what you'll get. If you're signalling openness and interest, you'll have a much easier time to strike up conversations.
It is not restricted to the Anglo sphere.
Do you like Ducks? And (try) speaking German in a friendly environment? Join my German duck watching club for people who want to integrate and make German friends!
🦆
People take life too seriously, doing all these silly things because they live on a false sub conscious notion that they're going to (have to) live forever.
I would love to live in Germany and improve my basic German language skills. However, they switch to English when you are struggling with their language. Depending on what happens in the USA in November, I may need to immigrate to a free country.
I think a lot of people are watching the US very closely right now
Mein Empfehlung: bestehe höflich darauf, die Unterhaltung auf deutsch zu führen.
My recommendation: insist politely on keeping the talk in German.
Let me ask you, what do the British say to foreigners who live and work in their country? There was never any mention of expats during Brexit, was there?
Well again I think I know what you are trying to get at but it’s not really clear cut.
The British had a lot of what were called “seasonal workers” as in European workers in agriculture. Then you had a lot of polish and Eastern Europeans for the construction industry. They were generally just called “poles” not immigrants or expats because there were there for work. A lot of them have gone back to Poland now. Then you have what was termed “mass immigration” which generally referred to Europeans/middle east/Africa etc. Inter-nations has a lot of offices in the U.K. taking care of expats which are people from all over the world.
@@britingermany What you describe for the UK applies 100% to Germany too, I don't see any difference. Seasonal workers in the harvest or in the catering industry for decades, mostly from southern and eastern Europe, and I don't think the Brexit supporters were interested in harvest workers, let alone the farmers. Calling everyone Polish isn't nice either, we used to call guest workers Kanaks (since the 50s) but that was a long time ago.
@@arnodobler1096 Well not it's not really any different to germany but you asked what brits call foreigners...and we call people who come from Poland polish. I was generalising but it's estimated that around 40% of EU construction workers in the
UK were polish prior to Brexit.
@@britingermany Most foreigners also work in construction here.
Here's something to laugh about:
"Deutsche vs Polnische Handwerker" auf YT 😊 😊
@@britingermany How did they call the German doctors who worked in the UK who were not wishing to become UK citizens?