I loved this episode. The electric energy between a master (Ian) and his old student (Taylor), the way Taylor completely felt at place and even joked around a lot. This is one for the history books.
I like how Taylor is not blind to things, loads of good stuff in Laravel and their products/ecosystem but a realistic view on what else is out there and always open to new ideas. And no sense of feeling 'to good' for other options, very grounded still, even after having realized all that he has.
Taylor, I moved to Mallorca and it was all possible thanks to my freelancing hustle where I use Laravel. Thank you for that! PD: Hit me up when you come around.
@@rumble1925 Hey! Yeah so I was working in an agency in The Netherlands and got sick of 9-5 so I partnered up with a good friend who focuses on the frontend and we started looking for clients. Not long after that we stumbled upon another 2 person design agency looking to get into the web dev world and the rest just flew from there. We work about 70% of the time with CMS sites (Statamic but with our own Blade version) and C# Umbraco. The other 30% is SaaS and making bespoke platforms for startups which we do in Laravel (and very rarely, if they request it, with .NET). It's all about putting yourself out there!
@@SRasheed-e2i Hey, clients don't care what tech you use, as long as you make a good product. In my case, I got lucky because I partnered up with an upcoming design agency and they get the clients, I do the dev work.
@@rumble1925 Hey, I do mostly CRUD style apps that are custom tailored to small businesses and also CMS work with Statamic. I partnered up with an upcoming design agency and they get the clients while I do the dev work, I got lucky!
well rounded convo, great cast. well worth the time, especially glad for the big picture stuff and learning about Laravel as a biz / the work flow etc. thanks guys.
Delightful episode. I have listened to a couple of Taylor's interviews/podcasts and it seemed like he was very comfortable with you two, which was awesome. I am one of those people building with Laravel (and Filament) as my first foray into development and I do absolutely love it. From learning on Laracasts, to working with the framework, to engaging on some of the discords with members of the community, it is a great community to be a part of. I am using my work with Laravel+Filament to also show my bosses the potential of using a framework like this.
Dax and Adam brought me here! This was an intriguing conversation. The practical mindset in the Laravel community is extremely compelling to me. 9:30 - Aaron hitting us with that classic Dubya quote.
Great points littered throughout. Talking about the complexities of sending an email; my JavaScript-brain would just say "use a service" -- which sounds easy but you forget you need different environments, credentials, different rules/auth, different users, another bill to automate and forget about, vendor lock-in... and *still* not have the features/tools that come shipped with Laravel. This mindset is JS in a nutshell: The moment a dev task gets hard or confusing, buy another service that does it. Exhibit A is influencers pushing Clerk for auth. Your JS day job ends up tying together 15 different services that have to know about each other somehow or share data in some way, writing code which doesn't feel productive or fun.
I was writing my SaaS in NextJS+Typescript and hitting exactly this. I decided to try a 2 week sprint spinning up an alternate version in Laravel+Inertia and quickly realised how much more “batteries included” the Laravel stack was. There’s no comparison. I haven’t looked back.
In my case, I always try to write it myself which leads me to spend a week pulling in and trying libraries, learning about it. When I'm done I've lost all energy and momentum to build the product I was excited about. So another abandoned app gets to litter my repos folder. I've recently picked up Adonis because it reminds me of Laravel. I'm coming around to the fact that maybe I should stop looking for alternatives to Laravel and just use it.
@@rumble1925 I went through a very similar process, lol. I recommend just use Laravel. With inertia you can still get all the good react stuff on the frontend.
Taylor: It's good to know when she is coming home, if I had to do something, like I need to get the dishwasher empty or so. And I thought it was just me 😁😂
The PHP not paying as much always felt like it was because non programmers using wordpress identified as programmers (uploading images for car sales on a word press site, calling themselves a developer). There is also more people breaking into the market with PHP. I doubt that explains all of the discrepancy, but I always thought that was part of it. I'm also excited to hear how Laravel is growing a bit, it makes me hopeful for it's future.
I need to watch the whole episode because it seems interesting, but I did skim over it a bit. I cannot wait for the VSCode extension. I did try Laravel a bit and used PHPStorm, but I just don't want to switch editors right now just for Laravel, even though PHPStorm seems quite capable, but I just absolutely love VSCode. What I think the VSCode extension needs to have is autocomplete/intellisense for Laravel specific things (e.g. validators) of course along with PHP related stuff, go to definition and template formatting. If there will be other features that's fine, but these three come to mind immediately as must have for something like this. I really think formatting is something that gets overlooked a lot, but for me it's a huge boost not having to think about manually formatting code and everything just being consistently formatted automatically.
Great episode! And about Inertia, I also think there should be a Caleb person dedicated to the development of Inertia, because right now, I think it's kind of unmaintainable
Hey, I got laid off a few months ago, really hard to find a php job, one I saw had 786 applications for it, been told by recruiters that they have over 500 applicants for each job, yeah it's hard now
yeah i need out of a box blade treesitter working in neovim. i use phpstorm and neovim and blade syntax highlighting must work in neovim without a hustle. lots of young new devs use neovim, not just vscode.
I'm one of the people who watch primeagen. I should be working while he's live, but then again I'm unemployed. 😂 Attempting to break into tech is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
If it's worth anything: I know two types of software devs. Those who got a cs degree and got a job because of that. And those who learned to make simple websites and scaled from there. There's always someone who just wants a website.
Lavavel's biggest sticking point is PHP. I want to build things with a fully-featured PL that doesn't suck. I respect the design and values, but because of this, it's not something I would ever consider using. So maybe the way to get more people using it is to improve PHP? Or port the framework to something like Go? Both tall tasks, but otherwise I don't see it gaining much popularity going forward
I use PHP since version 4, when there were many horrible programmers using PHP in the craziest ways., It's not like that anymore, for years. PHP has improved so much, it's not the mess it was back in the past (programmers' fault honestly) and its performance today is absolutely very good, and the RFCs show us that it will keep improving. We can run it on nginx, apache, caddy, Franken, Lambda; we can distribute it using a single executable file, if a bug in the code is found, it does not put down all the server. Laravel is also pretty popular these days. I also don't see any reason to port it to something like Go (where community does not like frameworks - you can do everything with http library, they say). Then, we have JS, that sucks more than PHP, its popularity is bigger just because people are lazy and don't want to switch language context between backend/frontend.
We've already spent the last 10 years improving PHP - PHP doesn't suck these days. In fact every time I try a new language like Ruby, Python, Go, etc, I wonder why they're all so much more of a pain to work with than PHP/composer/nginx/Laravel. If you haven't tried Modern PHP/Laravel lately, give it a spin. You'll likely be pleasantly surprised.
For now you guys are right with your arguments but with Astro having now Astro db and maybe soon first party auth others will follow, and as you said the one command deploy in the JS ecosystem is currently unmatched wonder how php/laravel will compete with this once every major framework in the js ecosystem has those things. And to be fair the kind of have it already if they use something like supabase.
What's special about Astro DB? Isn't it just a managed SQL database, like I can get from Neon, RDS, or other managed dbs? I mean, looking from their website, it does not look like something special, despite that it has first-party support to Astro. It does not sound like something that's part of the framework itself, but a service you'll have to pay, same for authentication (Laravel does not require developer to get a number of services to have auth, db, etc).
@@vsadev ^ a lot of js eco is paying for infra when in php is more about doing it yourself and scaling later. dax made a great point that js is mostly cloud. personally I like to orchestrate services locally using docker or service providers before shipping to the cloud.
I'm a passionate Laravel developer who does more .NET Core then Laravel because it just.. pays more. Here's to hoping one day I find a job that can pay me to do what I love with Laravel.
laravel is useful. the js frameworks seem like curious experimentation instead of finished software. like nuxt for example, so much thrashing and poor server side performance. solid start 1.0 is shipping with a server which is "alpha". its all just half baked software.
Painful to listen to. Almost sounded like these guys think no one in JavaScript land is shipping anything, or when they do it’s because they have 30 people working on it. The reality is it’s the exact opposite.
Certainly there are many people doing great things with JS. But true is that JS is not the silver bullet that many JS developers and influencers try to picture. It's not hard to read/hear that JS don't impose language context switch, that it can work on both backend and frontend flawless, etc. Exactly painful to listen to and read as well. The ecosystem of paid services around JS has grown so much, but why? Because JS is just easy to create things or because dies it also introduce whole new challenges in such a way that developers have to look for ready solutions to things that become complex to create in-house? JS was born for the frontend and PHP for the backend. I've done things using JS on backend, Livewire (PHP) for frontend, but as much as I can, I separate things and absolutely prefer the language context switch.
He needs to start chopping them up into shorts and then when you come across a short you like from an episode, you’ll convert over and watch the full thing. Good luck getting higher numbers in 2024.
@6:10 I mean, there is the fact that you watch Laravel podcasts and a dude is quoting the Bible. I can't say that happens a lot in Next.js world or whatever.
I loved this episode. The electric energy between a master (Ian) and his old student (Taylor), the way Taylor completely felt at place and even joked around a lot. This is one for the history books.
And also I was there!!!
Oh hi aaron
@@aarondfrancis
Absolutely, you are like social lubricant. A powerhouse in your own right. Perfect episode
@@cherkim whew, I'll take it
I like how Taylor is not blind to things, loads of good stuff in Laravel and their products/ecosystem but a realistic view on what else is out there and always open to new ideas. And no sense of feeling 'to good' for other options, very grounded still, even after having realized all that he has.
Taylor, I moved to Mallorca and it was all possible thanks to my freelancing hustle where I use Laravel. Thank you for that! PD: Hit me up when you come around.
Curious about your story, how did you get started, what type of work do you do?
@@rumble1925 Hey! Yeah so I was working in an agency in The Netherlands and got sick of 9-5 so I partnered up with a good friend who focuses on the frontend and we started looking for clients. Not long after that we stumbled upon another 2 person design agency looking to get into the web dev world and the rest just flew from there. We work about 70% of the time with CMS sites (Statamic but with our own Blade version) and C# Umbraco. The other 30% is SaaS and making bespoke platforms for startups which we do in Laravel (and very rarely, if they request it, with .NET). It's all about putting yourself out there!
i love laravel but been trying for long time to land freelancing jobs with it, curious around where you get your freelancing jobs , any tips/sites?
@@SRasheed-e2i Hey, clients don't care what tech you use, as long as you make a good product. In my case, I got lucky because I partnered up with an upcoming design agency and they get the clients, I do the dev work.
@@rumble1925 Hey, I do mostly CRUD style apps that are custom tailored to small businesses and also CMS work with Statamic. I partnered up with an upcoming design agency and they get the clients while I do the dev work, I got lucky!
well rounded convo, great cast. well worth the time, especially glad for the big picture stuff and learning about Laravel as a biz / the work flow etc. thanks guys.
First time didn't get tired or bored at listening to podcast straight for an hour !! This was very enjoyable episode.
Delightful episode. I have listened to a couple of Taylor's interviews/podcasts and it seemed like he was very comfortable with you two, which was awesome.
I am one of those people building with Laravel (and Filament) as my first foray into development and I do absolutely love it. From learning on Laracasts, to working with the framework, to engaging on some of the discords with members of the community, it is a great community to be a part of.
I am using my work with Laravel+Filament to also show my bosses the potential of using a framework like this.
Dax and Adam brought me here! This was an intriguing conversation. The practical mindset in the Laravel community is extremely compelling to me.
9:30 - Aaron hitting us with that classic Dubya quote.
Glad someone caught that 😂
What a fantastic episode! Really enjoyed every minute of it ❤
Loved every second of it. Thank you guys!
Great points littered throughout. Talking about the complexities of sending an email; my JavaScript-brain would just say "use a service" -- which sounds easy but you forget you need different environments, credentials, different rules/auth, different users, another bill to automate and forget about, vendor lock-in... and *still* not have the features/tools that come shipped with Laravel.
This mindset is JS in a nutshell: The moment a dev task gets hard or confusing, buy another service that does it. Exhibit A is influencers pushing Clerk for auth. Your JS day job ends up tying together 15 different services that have to know about each other somehow or share data in some way, writing code which doesn't feel productive or fun.
I was writing my SaaS in NextJS+Typescript and hitting exactly this. I decided to try a 2 week sprint spinning up an alternate version in Laravel+Inertia and quickly realised how much more “batteries included” the Laravel stack was. There’s no comparison. I haven’t looked back.
@@fatalglory777this is the way
In my case, I always try to write it myself which leads me to spend a week pulling in and trying libraries, learning about it. When I'm done I've lost all energy and momentum to build the product I was excited about. So another abandoned app gets to litter my repos folder.
I've recently picked up Adonis because it reminds me of Laravel. I'm coming around to the fact that maybe I should stop looking for alternatives to Laravel and just use it.
@@rumble1925 I went through a very similar process, lol. I recommend just use Laravel. With inertia you can still get all the good react stuff on the frontend.
Spot on 🎯
the laravel vscode extension would be sooooooooooo cool
there is laravel idea or laravel.nvim
This was brilliant! Thanks guys! ❤
What a great episode!
Great format! Keep it up
great episode, thanks guys!
I can't believe you got Tyler from Larval on the show!
Love this episode, love the podcast
Taylor: It's good to know when she is coming home, if I had to do something, like I need to get the dishwasher empty or so.
And I thought it was just me 😁😂
Even guys with Lambos need to empty dishwashers.
Deploying a Laravel app with the same speed and ease as getting something on Vercel is an excellent North Star.
The PHP not paying as much always felt like it was because non programmers using wordpress identified as programmers (uploading images for car sales on a word press site, calling themselves a developer). There is also more people breaking into the market with PHP. I doubt that explains all of the discrepancy, but I always thought that was part of it. I'm also excited to hear how Laravel is growing a bit, it makes me hopeful for it's future.
34:59 Inertia deserves some love. It's concerning for devs who built apps around it.
HELL YEAH BROTHERS!
The Laravel VS Code extension is definitely going to be a game changer
The vscode extension is excellent, and the one-command deployment feature makes it even better.
Great podcast
Ayyyyy haha the final class debate 😂
I liked them at first, until I realized they're not mockable/stubbable 😅
@@nimmneun haha 💯, man don't even get me started 😂
hahaha :D The devil himself :D
I need to watch the whole episode because it seems interesting, but I did skim over it a bit. I cannot wait for the VSCode extension. I did try Laravel a bit and used PHPStorm, but I just don't want to switch editors right now just for Laravel, even though PHPStorm seems quite capable, but I just absolutely love VSCode.
What I think the VSCode extension needs to have is autocomplete/intellisense for Laravel specific things (e.g. validators) of course along with PHP related stuff, go to definition and template formatting. If there will be other features that's fine, but these three come to mind immediately as must have for something like this. I really think formatting is something that gets overlooked a lot, but for me it's a huge boost not having to think about manually formatting code and everything just being consistently formatted automatically.
Came here for the drama talk eyyy 🙌
Great talk! I do find it interesting that people are saying PHP jobs don't pay well but yet thete is a PHP Lambo meme
vue2 was the best vue. Still using options api till the end on vue3!
Cant wait for a vscode extension
Good episode. Timestamps would be nice too.
Great episode! And about Inertia, I also think there should be a Caleb person dedicated to the development of Inertia, because right now, I think it's kind of unmaintainable
The closest equivalent to Laravel in JS is Adonis, and it's really cool
☕>🥤
I think Laravel overall does kick it off as Ship it as a Service :P
Hey, I got laid off a few months ago, really hard to find a php job, one I saw had 786 applications for it, been told by recruiters that they have over 500 applicants for each job, yeah it's hard now
yeah i need out of a box blade treesitter working in neovim. i use phpstorm and neovim and blade syntax highlighting must work in neovim without a hustle. lots of young new devs use neovim, not just vscode.
I'm one of the people who watch primeagen. I should be working while he's live, but then again I'm unemployed. 😂 Attempting to break into tech is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life.
If it's worth anything: I know two types of software devs. Those who got a cs degree and got a job because of that. And those who learned to make simple websites and scaled from there. There's always someone who just wants a website.
Lavavel's biggest sticking point is PHP. I want to build things with a fully-featured PL that doesn't suck. I respect the design and values, but because of this, it's not something I would ever consider using. So maybe the way to get more people using it is to improve PHP? Or port the framework to something like Go? Both tall tasks, but otherwise I don't see it gaining much popularity going forward
I use PHP since version 4, when there were many horrible programmers using PHP in the craziest ways., It's not like that anymore, for years. PHP has improved so much, it's not the mess it was back in the past (programmers' fault honestly) and its performance today is absolutely very good, and the RFCs show us that it will keep improving. We can run it on nginx, apache, caddy, Franken, Lambda; we can distribute it using a single executable file, if a bug in the code is found, it does not put down all the server. Laravel is also pretty popular these days. I also don't see any reason to port it to something like Go (where community does not like frameworks - you can do everything with http library, they say). Then, we have JS, that sucks more than PHP, its popularity is bigger just because people are lazy and don't want to switch language context between backend/frontend.
Laravel is what makes PHP bearable, Go doesn't need Laravel.
We've already spent the last 10 years improving PHP - PHP doesn't suck these days. In fact every time I try a new language like Ruby, Python, Go, etc, I wonder why they're all so much more of a pain to work with than PHP/composer/nginx/Laravel. If you haven't tried Modern PHP/Laravel lately, give it a spin. You'll likely be pleasantly surprised.
For now you guys are right with your arguments but with Astro having now Astro db and maybe soon first party auth others will follow, and as you said the one command deploy in the JS ecosystem is currently unmatched wonder how php/laravel will compete with this once every major framework in the js ecosystem has those things. And to be fair the kind of have it already if they use something like supabase.
What's special about Astro DB? Isn't it just a managed SQL database, like I can get from Neon, RDS, or other managed dbs? I mean, looking from their website, it does not look like something special, despite that it has first-party support to Astro. It does not sound like something that's part of the framework itself, but a service you'll have to pay, same for authentication (Laravel does not require developer to get a number of services to have auth, db, etc).
@@vsadev ^ a lot of js eco is paying for infra when in php is more about doing it yourself and scaling later. dax made a great point that js is mostly cloud. personally I like to orchestrate services locally using docker or service providers before shipping to the cloud.
I'm a passionate Laravel developer who does more .NET Core then Laravel because it just.. pays more. Here's to hoping one day I find a job that can pay me to do what I love with Laravel.
I can't get over Ian and Taylor saying "Me and Taylor", "Me and Adam", "Me and you", etc., but good episode nonetheless.
laravel is useful. the js frameworks seem like curious experimentation instead of finished software. like nuxt for example, so much thrashing and poor server side performance. solid start 1.0 is shipping with a server which is "alpha". its all just half baked software.
Javascript = Dramascript
Painful to listen to. Almost sounded like these guys think no one in JavaScript land is shipping anything, or when they do it’s because they have 30 people working on it. The reality is it’s the exact opposite.
Certainly there are many people doing great things with JS. But true is that JS is not the silver bullet that many JS developers and influencers try to picture. It's not hard to read/hear that JS don't impose language context switch, that it can work on both backend and frontend flawless, etc. Exactly painful to listen to and read as well. The ecosystem of paid services around JS has grown so much, but why? Because JS is just easy to create things or because dies it also introduce whole new challenges in such a way that developers have to look for ready solutions to things that become complex to create in-house? JS was born for the frontend and PHP for the backend. I've done things using JS on backend, Livewire (PHP) for frontend, but as much as I can, I separate things and absolutely prefer the language context switch.
first
why aaron looks so gay
your titles are always appealing but these talks are too long to watch tbh. even if it's technical (which i am)
Totally disagree
He needs to start chopping them up into shorts and then when you come across a short you like from an episode, you’ll convert over and watch the full thing. Good luck getting higher numbers in 2024.
@6:10 I mean, there is the fact that you watch Laravel podcasts and a dude is quoting the Bible. I can't say that happens a lot in Next.js world or whatever.
“What about combo boxes and tooltips” shade to Ryan 😅🥹