I was impressed that in both vampire knight and kamikaze kaitou Jeanne both of the mc's spend the night with their lover.( some of my earlier reads as a teenager). Kamikaze's message is still something that holds up rather well.
Right? None of the shoujo/josei I read as a teen, portrayed healthy romantic relationships: they were all so criminally messy! I still miss the plethora of choices I had at that time, I took it all for granted.
Literally i got irritated with another video talking about how madoka after a few episodes shed its shojo magical girl facade like what facade madoka reads like a basic magical girl serues even though it's trying to subvert the genre it doesn't realize how well it fits in
@@pettybee3860 The incest in vampire knight is brought up more often weirdly enough. For a long time vampire knight was the only shoujo manga I owned as a teen back in 2009 and volume 1 of fruits basket. I finally got to read the rest of fruits basket( minus it's sequel) two years ago. Both are still very dear to me.
by blurring these lines between the demographics and suppressing shoujo works, it gives shounen all of credit for positive tropes associated with shoujo while blaming the issues across all anime/manga on shoujo!
So what you are saying is shoujo should just die and teenage girls shouldn't have anything? Shoujo is dying as a genre for a while now because the main demographic for shoujo is not watching shoujo but watches shonen. Mixing them up would fix a lot.
I like romantic killer, but it’s definitely got the vibe of an outsider imitating. It leans more on the parodied gaming aspects. A series by a genuine shoujo author that parodies the high school romance genre and is hilarious would be Monthly Shoujo Nozaki-Kun. I attended a con years back and attended a panel with the writers of a western cartoon that had recently been canceled despite its popularity. When the topic of why it was cancelled was broached, it was basically alluded to that the series’s primary demographic was girls, despite the network shooting for the boy demographic. And, according to the higher ups, “girls don’t buy toys.” And, of course, boys won’t watch it if girls like it. This got burned into my mind and sticks with me to this day. Everyone loves looking for “valid” excuses for excluding female demographics. “It’s in the numbers,” they say while failing to ever provide enough well funded opportunities to actually prove their point. Girls buy things and consume media. instead of seeking out how to market to and capitalize on this demographic’s interests, they intentionally burry their heads in the sand.
Not to be *that guy*, but Nozaki-kun is actually a shonen! It definitely feels like a shojo though, because the manga artist for it, Izumi Tsubaki, also does shojo, like The Magic Touch and Oresama Teacher!
Kind of interesting that in Japan, Tokyo Revengers is very much a shounen series, but it and several other very clearly shounen series have a crap ton of female targeted merch. It's just sucky to hear that in the West, the media that gains a female following just gets the boot when it's very clearly shown that women do buy toys and merch.
I think I know the western (teen superhero) cartoon you're referencing and I remember learning about that and getting SO ANGRY. Literally you can slap characters and logos onto purses, makeup, hats, pins, TONS OF STUFF to sell to "traditional" femme demographics so I really just can't accept that excuse when I see the low quality of most western cartoon action figures in the first place. Hell, even still figurines are less complex to make than moveable action figures and can be sold to all demographics. I think about that excuse so much and I'm never not angry about it bc it just feels so weak and lame. CEOs seem to be so extremely out of touch with their market, idk why they bother making decisions at all about this stuff.
@@colorfulcheshire4181 If the exact same thing is being said across the ocean, I *think* there's a merit to the stance that can't be handwaved with "but girls DO buy things".
I'd say this all started with *_Ranma 1/2._* While Ranma 1/2 was a Shounen (published in Shonen Sunday), most of its fan base is largely feminine. Like, I don't know many dudes who enjoyed Ranma 1/2 when it was on TV (in Puerto Rico). But it was *THE* show all the girls watched.
It's funny you say that, because when the video started, I thought of Inuyasha, also from the author of Ranma 1/2, Rumiko Takahashi. I have no idea what demographic it was going for, but both boys and girls loved it when I was a kid, me included.
Man, it’s sad how these woman working from home are being exploited so the manga and anime industry can flourish, while simultaneously being excluded from that same industry. Japanese women have it really hard.
I stopped watching anime because I couldn’t find anything new that I hadn’t watched already that was tolerable. All the series seemed to be about action or had girls depicted in a very sexist way. It all makes sense now!
YUP I thought i was the only one! All the shoujo anime is gone and dead, I'm tired of reading mangas and I want them back ASAP. Tired of all these sexist male-centered anime depicting women in a very vile and objectified way.
Exactly this. Shonen has absorbed and taken credit for so many shojo tropes it sometimes feels like the only real difference between the two demographics is the oversexualized waifus. :/
I really just want to watch/read a series where I won't be bombarded by useless panty and boob shots while the girls are shoved off screen when the fighting or relevant scenes start, and shoujo is my best bet for that.
I wonder if that’s the reason why the magical girl genre was heavily gravitated towards the grimdark stuff in the wake of Madoka Magica’s success throughout the 2010’s. I also wonder if that’s why mangaka like Mochizuki Jun have enjoyable but inferior anime adaptations of her manga (see: The Case Study of Vanitas or Pandora Hearts). This could be the reason. And it’s sad if it’s true. Edit: Also, this could be the reason for why Crunchyroll didn’t nominate any shoujosei titles in this year’s Anime Awards
i do wish more shounen romance were like shoujo romance bcs, objectively, shoujo romance is better 🤷♀️ for example, horimiya often gets misjudged as a shoujo because the couple gets together early and they both have strong, lovable personalities and don't sexualize the FL (something most shounen romance can't do 💀). it's still unfair that shounen can 'act' like a shoujo and get all the hype while real shoujo can't even get english translations or anime portrayals 🤷♀️
i found horimiya to be not enjoyable because hori is so damn unlikeable, she’s horrible and rude to her dad 24/7, controlling of miyamura and in the manga they made her seem a lil homophobic too 😭
Horimiya felt like a fantastic shoujo series that had all of the lovely emotional build-up cut out so that the story could focus on the funny bits and the emotional payoff (in that order). The whole series had me mildly confused and deeply disappointed until I learned that it was actually seinen. People everywhere kept saying that it was shoujo, and it clearly isn't. These "borderline" shows always have some very obvious elements that give away who the actual demographic is. It's incredibly annoying that people want to act it doesn't matter.
It drives me nuts because the rise of Shonen tropes in shojo, especially Shonen romance, basically proves that guys would watch and enjoy shojo if they just gave it a chance, but they literally see the word shojo and turn their noses up at it without even knowing what it's about.
There’s nothing shoujo about Romantic Killer, I try to pretend it doesn’t exist because it’s so irritating as a shoujo/josei fan! Lol. People seem to confuse the meaning of shoujo with simply having a female lead 🤦🏻♀️
Female lead and romance == shojo automatically, male anime fans can't even watch the promos without throwing up reactively. /s I don't remember it that well but I thought romantic killer was kinda cute though. I felt like it started out making fun of shojo then kind of forgot what it was going for and accidentally became everything it was making fun of lmao. If it was a shojo it would be kind of cringe - quirky "not like other girls" FL and cliche sad boy ML - reads like a weak fanfic of a shojo manga, but since it's Shonen and boys have no standards it got a pass lol. I just liked that it didn't sexualize the female lead... At least from what I can remember. My bar for anime has gotten that low with the lack of shojo in recent years. 😂
One thing to add about RK. The mangaka mentioned in an interview that one of the reasons why RK focuses so heavily on the comedy is because they themselves struggle with romance and "aren't in love with the idea of love". That comment and the overall commentary of the series itself has lead to speculation the mangaka may be ace.
I enjoyed Romantic Killer when I watched it, but I lost a bit of respect for it after learning how it was made. It also made me realize that the show was way better at comedic moments than emotional ones because the author just didn't understand what makes shojo good before trying to write one.
We always knew this is the direction anime and manga would take. It's sad but it was only a matter of time before media companies and general mainstream culture was going to push back against “the female gaze” because horny little males felt excluded. I found better hope in western comics, specifically, and moved away completely from manga and anime.
@@gandalainsley6467 Personally, I’d have to disagree. The shoujo demographic watches shoujo, considering the success of The Ice Guy and Biblophile Princess. Yamada-kun also seems pretty great. Men don’t want to watch shoujo, because its not masculine or empowering for males, and a lot of shoujo still is gentle romance. Girls still watch shounen, though, because there really isnt as much shoujo anime being released as to shounen anime or seinen anime.
@@miicrowavez Some shows but as a genre as a whole they really don't. Its like with pop punk music now , besides MGK and couple others would you really say pop punk music is popular? And as for the empowering males part, its not that. For most guys(especially teenagers) romance is just boring. And the masculine part is wrong because a lot of teenagers watch ecchi and its not masculine at all usually. Guys are more visual. Girls are more, "how it makes you feel". There is how it "makes you feel for guys" too but usually you won't find it in shoujo because unlike with guys huge trauma can make a female watcher quit watching the show, especially teenage girls. You could compare trauma from Orange to March comes like a lion. Both shows are about depression but March comes like a lion goes very into detail about it from the depressed person's perspective and Orange is how it affects others.(mc is the character from the side)
@@gandalainsley6467 idk what you’re talking about. Shoujo utilizes crippling tramua. One of my favorite shoujo had a character that suppressed his entire childhood memories because he had accidentally killed his mother. This was a cute innocent shoujo btw, that wasn’t edgy or dark
@@idongesitx1873 Trauma is in shoujo. I never said it isn't there but the shows never go into details too much. They will not write the character in a way that would reflect trauma too much on that character because it would be unappealing to the main demographic of shoujo. Have you ever watched criminal minds? There is a character called Spencer that was fan favorite. He had a huge female fanbase and at one point a lot of female watchers stopped watching the show because it went from trauma being talked about to actually showing it and showing after effects on him. They stopped watching because" show tortures him too much".( I saw comments like that)
Considering that shojosei is a marketing demographic and that the industry is firmly run by men, the category is filled with male focused ideas about what women are like and should like. It both assumes what women will like, and it proscribes what women should be like. Even series penned by female authors are affected by this since male editors choose which works will get published.
Whether something is a shounen or shoujo just comes down to what magazine it's published in. Banana Fish is an action shoujo. Horimiya is a romance shounen. At this point they might as well not gender them because people of all genders watch and enjoy different things. That said, I do wish more shoujo were currently being animated
The problem is the fanbase shoujo is supposed to appeal to. They are not gonna make many shoujo anime if people don't watch them. There is no point. That is why shonen does put a lot of shoujo things in the shows now. Demographic of teenage girls migrated towards shonen. There actually is no actual point for a shoujo and shonen. They could be a one genre. You could say that Inuyasha and black butler were ahead of their time. They already tried to appeal to both crowds.
unrelated but horimiya is so overrated anyway it’s bascially 13 episodes watching hori be rude as fuck to everyone , especially to her own dad and bf miyamura and idk they get together way too fast to the point where you wonder if miyamura is afraid of her or not
Just watched Gakuen Alice for the first time a few months ago. Very fun, very cute, and, like most shoujo, terribly underrated. Worst part is that the manga is so long out of print that finding them is like a collector’s item so much so that even pirate sites have missing chapters or badly rendered scans.
@@riddlesheartahoge13 yep I share your sentiment though I add FMAB to that. 🫡😊 Honestly Natsume Y is so unique mature and full of positive and realistic aproaches. I fell in love with it when I was 13 and trough out all the years of watching anime it stayed at the top of my list. It is so japanese and organic at it's core The manga author is really Worth respect. Though I noticed that they added some suggestive fanservice with Matoba that was not in the original 🤔I like how manga treated Matoba and Natsume relationship as the opossites much better though these are sattle diferences.
I have a new male coworker who I enjoy talking about anime with because he's seen or read things like "School Rumble", "Kimi ni todoke" and "fruits basket". Those are my favorite and core shows from being a long term anime fan, but they go under new watcher's radars. Now the only thing to watch is all this shounen 🤦🏾♀️😂
Fascinating and thoughtful video! Thank you for covering this topic, it really does a good job covering what is so weird about the trend of labeling so many shonen series as shojo, which has been bothering me a lot lately in particular
I'm a girl who loves shounen but who wants to watch/read shoujo but since I don't generally like the romance genre and prefer romance to be more of a subplot so I don't know which series to watch besides Sailor Moon. I've heard good things about shoujo but I most shoujo I know are just romance. I plan on looking at some slice of life, I didn't expect to like the genre but after watching Komi can't communicate I realized it was pretty good. I also am interested in the magical girl animes since they seem like fighting animes that I do enjoy,
Yona of the dawn and qq sweeper( and it's sequel queens quality) are also very good. I typically like fantasy romance series when looking for romance titles. I really loved paradise kiss as well.
Fruits Basket and Snow White with Red hair are my personal fav Shoujo's, otherwise there's a youtuber I watch who talks more about the various kinds of Shoujo manga that are out there, her channel name is Colleen's Manga Recs. While Romance is often involved in shoujo it's not all it has to offer
Common misconception! Shoujo and Josei are NOT only romance stories! Also, it really depends on what type of shows you like. When people say "recommend Shoujo for me! I like to watch Shonen!" I can't really help them because like... What Shonen do you like? Shonen has many genres just like Shoujo and Josei does... Though assuming you mean action and adventure, then I can recommend a few! Shoujo - Yona of the Dawn: fantasy and adventure - The Rose of Versailles historical and military (fun fact! People shit on Shoujo, but this gem inspired Berserk) - Basara: fantasy and adventure - Magic Knight Rayearth: fantasy, adventure, and mecha - X/1999: action and supernatural - Cowboy Bebop: action and sci-fi - Oooku: historical and samurai Josei - Karneval: action, fantasy, and sci-fi - Petshop of Horrors: fantasy, horror, supernatural - Saiyuuki Reload: action, adventure, comedy - Hakuouki: historical and samurai Those should be some starter anime. This is assuming that you tend to like action. I mixed a bit of horror with Petshop of Horrors, but I don't know if you would even like that.
So they can learn that it's... 99% vapid pure romance? I don't even think it's 99% of the same thing, but pointing out exceptions to the stereotype doesn't defeat it.
Yeah… that’s why have stuck with old manga and female oriented manhwa, it’s the only places I can have something with the female gaze, at when the female characters are sexualized there, it’s usually in a way that it’s empowering. Not to say I don’t read some modern shounen like Chainsaw Man, Edens Zero and Shumatsu no Valkyrie; but they just don’t scratch the shouting itch I have (and their depiction of women can be too fanservice heavy in an immersion breaking way).
I think people are calling shounen shoujo because they genuinely couldn’t tell the difference. There have been SO many seinen anime I watched thinking it was shoujo until I read the description that said otherwise. I seriously couldn’t tell the difference! But maybe that’s me. MAYBE it’s possible I’m liking the seinen romance more than shoujo without even realizing
I'm really enjoying the rise of soft/kind-hearted shonen protagonists, who dont objectify female characters. It's like when they have all the warmth and positive qualities of Naruto and none of his sex pest persona such as Deku, Kanjiro, the lead of JJK, of Vinland Saga and Lloid Forger. I STILL MISS SHOUJOSEI ANIMATED SERIES!
Ooh you ate! I've been a fan of shojo and shounen for years but I never made the connection that they are DEMOGRAPHICS and not genres, even though I literally knew the definitions! Misogyny is sadly interwoven into everything....
How is this a matter of misogyny, and not a general American ignorance of how the Japanese conceive of and employ demographic categories? The nerds that are devoted to shounen and/or seinen make the same kind of mistake with those categories. Some of the ones that are into seinen, when encountering a shounen manga they like, try to dub it a "soft seinen" or "effectively a seinen" even when they know its circumstances.
Ahem *sits down* So i have thoughts One excellent video The rest of them: while i am glad that people are finally starting to call more attention to this when you try to bring it up online in conversations it quickly becomes a snake biting it's own tail because everytime they say we need more shoujo content they also say it shouldn't matter what the demographic is then why does it always seem to matter you say it doesn't matter then say you like shoujo and skip and loafer etc and the first thing you will hear is thats seinen so it either matters or it doesn't i think it does and for a few reasons chiefly being Why is there so many young girl casts in seinen and marketed as seinen i got into this discussion about witch hat atelier which i like but am bothered that it's a seinen the argument being it's marketed for everyone outside of japan and in japan its a manga for both men and women but how is it most josei have older female protagonists and more adult themes and yet a series marketed at adults doesn't really have mature themes (i didn't get too far into it but I'd call it teen at most) is marketed at older men i can kinda see series like sweetness and lightening because the main male lead is a father but i feel like this is excuses made for things like this to fly under the radar and that bothers me a lot there's nothing wrong with marketing to a younger audience adults are still able to enjoy those series and always have but why do so many series at surface level look just basically like shoujos always aimed at older men not young men and teens older men it gives me major cringe especially considering the various pedos who are anime creators and manga artists the companies who make these series need to take these serious and realize there's a reason why things that teen girls like get so much attention Ok I'm done
Also as far as everyone saying in the comments about the golden age of shojuo being gone Support! New! Shoujo! Series! When! They! Come! Out! Honey lemon soda is debuting tomorrow on Crunchyroll i almost missed it but i knew it was soon if you don't like the series don't watch it put it on as back ground noise if we want more seiries we have to support what we get i personally like the manga series i think its cute another one magic knight rayearth is getting a remake i couldn't find out if artiswitch is shojo but based on content alone imma say yeah if you don't mind 3d animation and like harajuku fashion watch it its 47 mins its on youtube support the series you love anything new is a step in the right direction if crunchy is saying that shoujo is an untapped market then they are watching numbers to see how these series do support all the new shoujo!
It's really sad to me that (allegedly) a really good shoujo series lost it's spot to Romantic Killer. I'm sure there's something to love about the series, but at least trying to start the anime, there was too much about it I just couldn't enjoy (*personally* it feels really shallow and misses the mark for what caught my attention about it) so I guess it just bothers me that what I assume is a lesser-performing series originally serialized thru shonen jump ended up shouldering it's way into a shoujo slot over a better series (or other actual shoujo in general) edit: I feel the need to clarify that my experience with shoujo was mostly in the early 2000's so i could be missing something but I really just don't understand how anyone feels that RK is a shoujo when it's missing all the VIBES of shoujo
It's a seriously false statement that the video author tried covering up with an "allegedly". Anyway you try to interpret it, it's a statement that can't come from someone who knows about the publication history of either series or even superficially thinks about how publication works. Snow White with the Red Hair has been published in English since 2019, while Romantic Killer has been published in English since late 2022, both by Viz. Vol. 3 of Romantic Killer and Volume 24 of Snow White with the Red Hair were published on the same exact day. Neither of them influenced the other's publication, and Romantic Killer is a short manga with only four volumes that have now all been published in English. As for Romantic Killer being perceived as a shoujo, it isn't about vibes-- it's about non-Japanese not being aware of what makes anything shounen/seinen/shoujo/josei: the magazine it's published in. Romantic Killer is a shounen strictly because it was published in a shounen magazine.
I crave shoujo so much . I wanna support every shoujo that are releasing but these are soo shiii that makes me unable to support that . Like bruh what was that romantic killer nd dont get me started w bibliophile princess . Fl is so dumb it made me physically cringe . Ugh i want Tohru,Katarina cute but also have brain . Sugar apple anime is good so far
I like to think of Shounen and Shoujo as umbrella terms. As you stated, there can be many different types of genres under these two umbrellas. One thing that irks me about the anime community is that many people don't think women can like shounen action series or even more ecchi based series. Like not all of us want to be shoved into a box saying we should only watch romance because we are "women" therefore we should only like so called "shoujo" anime. Nah...I wanna see some blood and guts and boobies from time to time 😆
I watch and read a lot of shoujo and I really don't see how shounen romance and shoujo romance are similar. Shounen romance is usually more simple and light hearted and, if there is any drama or love triangles, they're extremely short lived. The focus is usually either normal daily interactions for the main couple and the drama is mostly seperate from them. Even in the more light hearted shoujo romances, there is always way more emotional weight and drama for the situations the couple are in and the main couple are more centered in it. Plus, the damn love triangles get full story arcs. It's fine if you like that kind of thing but it is just frustrating for me at this point. I've watched and read a lot of both but that is still a small sample size in the grand scheme of things but the difference has been pretty obvious so far to the point where I'll actively seek out shounen romance if I want to watch something more lighthearted because shoujo is almost garaunteed to have more heavy moments and drawn out tension and drama.
I think kill la kill is very shoujo, on the outside it may look like shounen, but it’s actually about fashion, mother daughter relationships, periods, and the over-sexualization of the female body. All things that lean towards feminine traits
it's straight up a shonen. the subject matter doesn't matter at all. what determines whether sometimes is a shonen, shojou, seinen, or josei is the demographic it targets and the magazine is published in
@@Allyfyn it's pretty much the same thing. Also you're not going to believe this. But the first shounen and shoujo manga have basically the same artstyle 🤯🤯🤯
A lot of shounen and seinen mankaka’s have respect for shoujo and have taken inspiration from them and stated so. He isn’t saying shoujo invented good storytelling💀 but it has helped shounen and seinen mankaka’s to add more to their own works
I am of the belief that Shōnen should stop trying to be shoujo and stick to its roots as a proud shounen fan myself the only shoujo I’ve ever watched Is sailor moon but that’s really it
"the only shoujo I’ve ever watched Is sailor moon but that’s really it" What's there to be proud of about being close-minded? Series like "Lovely Complex", "Nana", "Orange" are absolutely amazing.
The idea of shoujo being pure comes from people who have not read enough shoujo
Or any shoujo
I was impressed that in both vampire knight and kamikaze kaitou Jeanne both of the mc's spend the night with their lover.( some of my earlier reads as a teenager). Kamikaze's message is still something that holds up rather well.
Right …the level of Shojo shit I have witnessed outweighs the fuckedupery all Shonen I have read could ever !
Right? None of the shoujo/josei I read as a teen, portrayed healthy romantic relationships: they were all so criminally messy! I still miss the plethora of choices I had at that time, I took it all for granted.
Literally i got irritated with another video talking about how madoka after a few episodes shed its shojo magical girl facade like what facade madoka reads like a basic magical girl serues even though it's trying to subvert the genre it doesn't realize how well it fits in
Its wild that Fruits Basket is has a reputation of being innocent considering its about the characters dealing with trauma from their families.
Not to mention the massive age gaps and the incest stuff LMFAOOO
@@pettybee3860 The incest in vampire knight is brought up more often weirdly enough. For a long time vampire knight was the only shoujo manga I owned as a teen back in 2009 and volume 1 of fruits basket. I finally got to read the rest of fruits basket( minus it's sequel) two years ago. Both are still very dear to me.
@@yunogasai1338oh I absolutely agree. I cried the first 15 minutes into the first episode of fruits basket and continuing into the show
Fruits Basket is boring
@@IchibanOjousama ok so?
by blurring these lines between the demographics and suppressing shoujo works, it gives shounen all of credit for positive tropes associated with shoujo while blaming the issues across all anime/manga on shoujo!
This! why are we not talking about all the trash shonen tropes ?
You couldn't have explained it any better really
@@beckyginger3432 People talk about them all the time.
So what you are saying is shoujo should just die and teenage girls shouldn't have anything? Shoujo is dying as a genre for a while now because the main demographic for shoujo is not watching shoujo but watches shonen. Mixing them up would fix a lot.
Just like real life men and women! Finally something realistic
I like romantic killer, but it’s definitely got the vibe of an outsider imitating. It leans more on the parodied gaming aspects. A series by a genuine shoujo author that parodies the high school romance genre and is hilarious would be Monthly Shoujo Nozaki-Kun.
I attended a con years back and attended a panel with the writers of a western cartoon that had recently been canceled despite its popularity. When the topic of why it was cancelled was broached, it was basically alluded to that the series’s primary demographic was girls, despite the network shooting for the boy demographic. And, according to the higher ups, “girls don’t buy toys.” And, of course, boys won’t watch it if girls like it. This got burned into my mind and sticks with me to this day. Everyone loves looking for “valid” excuses for excluding female demographics. “It’s in the numbers,” they say while failing to ever provide enough well funded opportunities to actually prove their point. Girls buy things and consume media. instead of seeking out how to market to and capitalize on this demographic’s interests, they intentionally burry their heads in the sand.
Not to be *that guy*, but Nozaki-kun is actually a shonen! It definitely feels like a shojo though, because the manga artist for it, Izumi Tsubaki, also does shojo, like The Magic Touch and Oresama Teacher!
I thought ouran hshc would be a good example of real shojo parodying other shojos
Kind of interesting that in Japan, Tokyo Revengers is very much a shounen series, but it and several other very clearly shounen series have a crap ton of female targeted merch. It's just sucky to hear that in the West, the media that gains a female following just gets the boot when it's very clearly shown that women do buy toys and merch.
I think I know the western (teen superhero) cartoon you're referencing and I remember learning about that and getting SO ANGRY. Literally you can slap characters and logos onto purses, makeup, hats, pins, TONS OF STUFF to sell to "traditional" femme demographics so I really just can't accept that excuse when I see the low quality of most western cartoon action figures in the first place. Hell, even still figurines are less complex to make than moveable action figures and can be sold to all demographics. I think about that excuse so much and I'm never not angry about it bc it just feels so weak and lame. CEOs seem to be so extremely out of touch with their market, idk why they bother making decisions at all about this stuff.
@@colorfulcheshire4181 If the exact same thing is being said across the ocean, I *think* there's a merit to the stance that can't be handwaved with "but girls DO buy things".
I'd say this all started with *_Ranma 1/2._*
While Ranma 1/2 was a Shounen (published in Shonen Sunday), most of its fan base is largely feminine. Like, I don't know many dudes who enjoyed Ranma 1/2 when it was on TV (in Puerto Rico). But it was *THE* show all the girls watched.
It's funny you say that, because when the video started, I thought of Inuyasha, also from the author of Ranma 1/2, Rumiko Takahashi. I have no idea what demographic it was going for, but both boys and girls loved it when I was a kid, me included.
@@anacecilia1387 I can't stand Inuyasha.
Ranma is so good tho
@@bunniigutz438 Yup!!
As a girl who watched Ranma 1/2 as a kid, I Can Confirm
Man, it’s sad how these woman working from home are being exploited so the manga and anime industry can flourish, while simultaneously being excluded from that same industry. Japanese women have it really hard.
I stopped watching anime because I couldn’t find anything new that I hadn’t watched already that was tolerable. All the series seemed to be about action or had girls depicted in a very sexist way. It all makes sense now!
Japan itself is very sexist, but shows like jujutsu kaisen give me hope for the future.
@@Hello-hello-hello456 I’ll check it out, thank you for the recommendation and the insight!
YUP I thought i was the only one! All the shoujo anime is gone and dead, I'm tired of reading mangas and I want them back ASAP. Tired of all these sexist male-centered anime depicting women in a very vile and objectified way.
Luckly it might change. SpyXFamily, and My Happy Marige exist now.
Exactly this. Shonen has absorbed and taken credit for so many shojo tropes it sometimes feels like the only real difference between the two demographics is the oversexualized waifus. :/
I really just want to watch/read a series where I won't be bombarded by useless panty and boob shots while the girls are shoved off screen when the fighting or relevant scenes start, and shoujo is my best bet for that.
I wonder if that’s the reason why the magical girl genre was heavily gravitated towards the grimdark stuff in the wake of Madoka Magica’s success throughout the 2010’s. I also wonder if that’s why mangaka like Mochizuki Jun have enjoyable but inferior anime adaptations of her manga (see: The Case Study of Vanitas or Pandora Hearts). This could be the reason. And it’s sad if it’s true.
Edit: Also, this could be the reason for why Crunchyroll didn’t nominate any shoujosei titles in this year’s Anime Awards
i do wish more shounen romance were like shoujo romance bcs, objectively, shoujo romance is better 🤷♀️ for example, horimiya often gets misjudged as a shoujo because the couple gets together early and they both have strong, lovable personalities and don't sexualize the FL (something most shounen romance can't do 💀). it's still unfair that shounen can 'act' like a shoujo and get all the hype while real shoujo can't even get english translations or anime portrayals 🤷♀️
i found horimiya to be not enjoyable because hori is so damn unlikeable, she’s horrible and rude to her dad 24/7, controlling of miyamura and in the manga they made her seem a lil homophobic too 😭
@@cheribitch5396 i prefer the side characters more
Horimiya felt like a fantastic shoujo series that had all of the lovely emotional build-up cut out so that the story could focus on the funny bits and the emotional payoff (in that order). The whole series had me mildly confused and deeply disappointed until I learned that it was actually seinen. People everywhere kept saying that it was shoujo, and it clearly isn't. These "borderline" shows always have some very obvious elements that give away who the actual demographic is. It's incredibly annoying that people want to act it doesn't matter.
It drives me nuts because the rise of Shonen tropes in shojo, especially Shonen romance, basically proves that guys would watch and enjoy shojo if they just gave it a chance, but they literally see the word shojo and turn their noses up at it without even knowing what it's about.
There’s nothing shoujo about Romantic Killer, I try to pretend it doesn’t exist because it’s so irritating as a shoujo/josei fan! Lol. People seem to confuse the meaning of shoujo with simply having a female lead 🤦🏻♀️
Female lead and romance == shojo automatically, male anime fans can't even watch the promos without throwing up reactively. /s
I don't remember it that well but I thought romantic killer was kinda cute though. I felt like it started out making fun of shojo then kind of forgot what it was going for and accidentally became everything it was making fun of lmao. If it was a shojo it would be kind of cringe - quirky "not like other girls" FL and cliche sad boy ML - reads like a weak fanfic of a shojo manga, but since it's Shonen and boys have no standards it got a pass lol. I just liked that it didn't sexualize the female lead... At least from what I can remember. My bar for anime has gotten that low with the lack of shojo in recent years. 😂
maybe not traditional japanese shoujo, but romantic killer actually reminds me a LOT about korean shoujo manhwa
@@Demonsta😂 Omg the shoujo drought is so real, also watched it for this reason. And have gone as far as watching old ones like Skip beat.
One thing to add about RK. The mangaka mentioned in an interview that one of the reasons why RK focuses so heavily on the comedy is because they themselves struggle with romance and "aren't in love with the idea of love". That comment and the overall commentary of the series itself has lead to speculation the mangaka may be ace.
Aro too?
@@anitanielsen1061 perhaps they usually do go hand in hand, not always of course
I enjoyed Romantic Killer when I watched it, but I lost a bit of respect for it after learning how it was made. It also made me realize that the show was way better at comedic moments than emotional ones because the author just didn't understand what makes shojo good before trying to write one.
how was it made if you dont mind me asking?
@@irr1960 It was mentioned in the video, somewhere in the middle I think.
We always knew this is the direction anime and manga would take. It's sad but it was only a matter of time before media companies and general mainstream culture was going to push back against “the female gaze” because horny little males felt excluded. I found better hope in western comics, specifically, and moved away completely from manga and anime.
The problem is that the main demographic that is shoujo made for does not really watch shoujo and watch shonen. Its has nothing to do with guys.
@@gandalainsley6467 Personally, I’d have to disagree. The shoujo demographic watches shoujo, considering the success of The Ice Guy and Biblophile Princess. Yamada-kun also seems pretty great. Men don’t want to watch shoujo, because its not masculine or empowering for males, and a lot of shoujo still is gentle romance. Girls still watch shounen, though, because there really isnt as much shoujo anime being released as to shounen anime or seinen anime.
@@miicrowavez Some shows but as a genre as a whole they really don't. Its like with pop punk music now , besides MGK and couple others would you really say pop punk music is popular? And as for the empowering males part, its not that. For most guys(especially teenagers) romance is just boring. And the masculine part is wrong because a lot of teenagers watch ecchi and its not masculine at all usually. Guys are more visual. Girls are more, "how it makes you feel". There is how it "makes you feel for guys" too but usually you won't find it in shoujo because unlike with guys huge trauma can make a female watcher quit watching the show, especially teenage girls. You could compare trauma from Orange to March comes like a lion. Both shows are about depression but March comes like a lion goes very into detail about it from the depressed person's perspective and Orange is how it affects others.(mc is the character from the side)
@@gandalainsley6467 idk what you’re talking about. Shoujo utilizes crippling tramua. One of my favorite shoujo had a character that suppressed his entire childhood memories because he had accidentally killed his mother. This was a cute innocent shoujo btw, that wasn’t edgy or dark
@@idongesitx1873 Trauma is in shoujo. I never said it isn't there but the shows never go into details too much. They will not write the character in a way that would reflect trauma too much on that character because it would be unappealing to the main demographic of shoujo. Have you ever watched criminal minds? There is a character called Spencer that was fan favorite. He had a huge female fanbase and at one point a lot of female watchers stopped watching the show because it went from trauma being talked about to actually showing it and showing after effects on him. They stopped watching because" show tortures him too much".( I saw comments like that)
Great video as always!!
Considering that shojosei is a marketing demographic and that the industry is firmly run by men, the category is filled with male focused ideas about what women are like and should like. It both assumes what women will like, and it proscribes what women should be like. Even series penned by female authors are affected by this since male editors choose which works will get published.
This it doesn't help that shojo was originally written by men until women were able to break into the genre it's just sad
U can just tell when a shonen marketed manga or anime is trying to do romance fbfjjdkdkbcb it’s so true ! My goodness
I cannot believe you have so little subscribers with such quality. Kudos.
Whether something is a shounen or shoujo just comes down to what magazine it's published in. Banana Fish is an action shoujo. Horimiya is a romance shounen. At this point they might as well not gender them because people of all genders watch and enjoy different things. That said, I do wish more shoujo were currently being animated
Agreed
The problem is the fanbase shoujo is supposed to appeal to. They are not gonna make many shoujo anime if people don't watch them. There is no point. That is why shonen does put a lot of shoujo things in the shows now. Demographic of teenage girls migrated towards shonen. There actually is no actual point for a shoujo and shonen. They could be a one genre. You could say that Inuyasha and black butler were ahead of their time. They already tried to appeal to both crowds.
Yeah it'd be nice if they actually separated it less by gender and simply by age
unrelated but horimiya is so overrated anyway it’s bascially 13 episodes watching hori be rude as fuck to everyone , especially to her own dad and bf miyamura and idk they get together way too fast to the point where you wonder if miyamura is afraid of her or not
@@gandalainsley6467 of course people wouldnt watch them when they butcher the manga and animation. This has happened way tooany times
Gakuen alice and natsume yujincho are both shoujo though most people would not call them that right away
Just watched Gakuen Alice for the first time a few months ago. Very fun, very cute, and, like most shoujo, terribly underrated. Worst part is that the manga is so long out of print that finding them is like a collector’s item so much so that even pirate sites have missing chapters or badly rendered scans.
Not you mentionning 2 of my fave animes omg
Heart skipped a beat when I read that
@@riddlesheartahoge13 yep I share your sentiment though I add FMAB to that. 🫡😊
Honestly Natsume Y is so unique mature and full of positive and realistic aproaches. I fell in love with it when I was 13 and trough out all the years of watching anime it stayed at the top of my list. It is so japanese and organic at it's core The manga author is really Worth respect.
Though I noticed that they added some suggestive fanservice with Matoba that was not in the original 🤔I like how manga treated Matoba and Natsume relationship as the opossites much better though these are sattle diferences.
I have a new male coworker who I enjoy talking about anime with because he's seen or read things like "School Rumble", "Kimi ni todoke" and "fruits basket". Those are my favorite and core shows from being a long term anime fan, but they go under new watcher's radars. Now the only thing to watch is all this shounen 🤦🏾♀️😂
School Rumble is a shounen too
Fascinating and thoughtful video! Thank you for covering this topic, it really does a good job covering what is so weird about the trend of labeling so many shonen series as shojo, which has been bothering me a lot lately in particular
Wonderful video! It's so strange how the anime/manga community has taken general demographics and tried to treat them as genres.
you're back !! i'm so excited to watch this ! i'm usually more of a silent viewer, but i love your content < 3 hope you are staying safe and healthy 🤍
The romantic killer video was pretty good ngl, like it’s such a good anime and it really convinces you to check it out!
I'm a girl who loves shounen but who wants to watch/read shoujo but since I don't generally like the romance genre and prefer romance to be more of a subplot so I don't know which series to watch besides Sailor Moon. I've heard good things about shoujo but I most shoujo I know are just romance. I plan on looking at some slice of life, I didn't expect to like the genre but after watching Komi can't communicate I realized it was pretty good. I also am interested in the magical girl animes since they seem like fighting animes that I do enjoy,
Yona of the dawn and qq sweeper( and it's sequel queens quality) are also very good. I typically like fantasy romance series when looking for romance titles. I really loved paradise kiss as well.
Komi can't communicate is a shonen.
Fruits Basket and Snow White with Red hair are my personal fav Shoujo's, otherwise there's a youtuber I watch who talks more about the various kinds of Shoujo manga that are out there, her channel name is Colleen's Manga Recs.
While Romance is often involved in shoujo it's not all it has to offer
@@AnnaMno1 Thank you! I'd like to check out fruit basket someday :P
Common misconception! Shoujo and Josei are NOT only romance stories! Also, it really depends on what type of shows you like. When people say "recommend Shoujo for me! I like to watch Shonen!" I can't really help them because like... What Shonen do you like? Shonen has many genres just like Shoujo and Josei does... Though assuming you mean action and adventure, then I can recommend a few!
Shoujo
- Yona of the Dawn: fantasy and adventure
- The Rose of Versailles historical and military (fun fact! People shit on Shoujo, but this gem inspired Berserk)
- Basara: fantasy and adventure
- Magic Knight Rayearth: fantasy, adventure, and mecha
- X/1999: action and supernatural
- Cowboy Bebop: action and sci-fi
- Oooku: historical and samurai
Josei
- Karneval: action, fantasy, and sci-fi
- Petshop of Horrors: fantasy, horror, supernatural
- Saiyuuki Reload: action, adventure, comedy
- Hakuouki: historical and samurai
Those should be some starter anime. This is assuming that you tend to like action. I mixed a bit of horror with Petshop of Horrors, but I don't know if you would even like that.
People who think shoujo is just vapid pure romance need to go pick up "a cruel god reigns" or "sand chronicles" or something 🙄
So they can learn that it's... 99% vapid pure romance?
I don't even think it's 99% of the same thing, but pointing out exceptions to the stereotype doesn't defeat it.
Basara basara!!!!!
Yeah… that’s why have stuck with old manga and female oriented manhwa, it’s the only places I can have something with the female gaze, at when the female characters are sexualized there, it’s usually in a way that it’s empowering.
Not to say I don’t read some modern shounen like Chainsaw Man, Edens Zero and Shumatsu no Valkyrie; but they just don’t scratch the shouting itch I have (and their depiction of women can be too fanservice heavy in an immersion breaking way).
How do you only have 6.5k subs your production deserves a million subscribers
One of your best videos so far!
You need more subscribers! Your content is so unique and well done. Your editing is great, your audio is amazing. A+ content my dude, keep it up!
I think people are calling shounen shoujo because they genuinely couldn’t tell the difference. There have been SO many seinen anime I watched thinking it was shoujo until I read the description that said otherwise. I seriously couldn’t tell the difference! But maybe that’s me. MAYBE it’s possible I’m liking the seinen romance more than shoujo without even realizing
when i watched romantic killer, it felt really different from what i expected. i liked it a lot, but the romantic interests were meh?
omg im so happy!! i love ur video essays it makes me feel like im chatting with a bestie
I just remembered Kiss Them Not Me when you mentioned Romantic Killer...
Your commentary is really insightful! You got yourself a new subscriber. 😊
I'm really enjoying the rise of soft/kind-hearted shonen protagonists, who dont objectify female characters. It's like when they have all the warmth and positive qualities of Naruto and none of his sex pest persona such as Deku, Kanjiro, the lead of JJK, of Vinland Saga and Lloid Forger.
I STILL MISS SHOUJOSEI ANIMATED SERIES!
i’m seriously loving your content rn
I’m so glad I found your channel!
Anyone labeling Fruits Basket as a simple High School Romance has neither watched nor read it. Tbh I would first classify it as a Family Drama.
Ooh you ate! I've been a fan of shojo and shounen for years but I never made the connection that they are DEMOGRAPHICS and not genres, even though I literally knew the definitions! Misogyny is sadly interwoven into everything....
How is this a matter of misogyny, and not a general American ignorance of how the Japanese conceive of and employ demographic categories? The nerds that are devoted to shounen and/or seinen make the same kind of mistake with those categories. Some of the ones that are into seinen, when encountering a shounen manga they like, try to dub it a "soft seinen" or "effectively a seinen" even when they know its circumstances.
You put into words what I could never. :3.
this video was so informative, great video !
So nice to see black manga video essayist! Good video
Ahem *sits down*
So i have thoughts
One excellent video
The rest of them: while i am glad that people are finally starting to call more attention to this when you try to bring it up online in conversations it quickly becomes a snake biting it's own tail because everytime they say we need more shoujo content they also say it shouldn't matter what the demographic is then why does it always seem to matter you say it doesn't matter then say you like shoujo and skip and loafer etc and the first thing you will hear is thats seinen so it either matters or it doesn't i think it does and for a few reasons chiefly being
Why is there so many young girl casts in seinen and marketed as seinen i got into this discussion about witch hat atelier which i like but am bothered that it's a seinen the argument being it's marketed for everyone outside of japan and in japan its a manga for both men and women but how is it most josei have older female protagonists and more adult themes and yet a series marketed at adults doesn't really have mature themes (i didn't get too far into it but I'd call it teen at most) is marketed at older men i can kinda see series like sweetness and lightening because the main male lead is a father but i feel like this is excuses made for things like this to fly under the radar and that bothers me a lot there's nothing wrong with marketing to a younger audience adults are still able to enjoy those series and always have but why do so many series at surface level look just basically like shoujos always aimed at older men not young men and teens older men it gives me major cringe especially considering the various pedos who are anime creators and manga artists the companies who make these series need to take these serious and realize there's a reason why things that teen girls like get so much attention
Ok I'm done
Absolutely loved this video
I love your content ❤ keep at it
I love Shoujo>Shounen
Thank you for another great video 😌
I love your videos. You remind me of Shanspear, I actually found your channel through her. I hope y'all Collab oneday
Also as far as everyone saying in the comments about the golden age of shojuo being gone
Support! New! Shoujo! Series! When! They! Come! Out! Honey lemon soda is debuting tomorrow on Crunchyroll i almost missed it but i knew it was soon if you don't like the series don't watch it put it on as back ground noise if we want more seiries we have to support what we get i personally like the manga series i think its cute another one magic knight rayearth is getting a remake i couldn't find out if artiswitch is shojo but based on content alone imma say yeah if you don't mind 3d animation and like harajuku fashion watch it its 47 mins its on youtube support the series you love anything new is a step in the right direction if crunchy is saying that shoujo is an untapped market then they are watching numbers to see how these series do support all the new shoujo!
It's really sad to me that (allegedly) a really good shoujo series lost it's spot to Romantic Killer. I'm sure there's something to love about the series, but at least trying to start the anime, there was too much about it I just couldn't enjoy (*personally* it feels really shallow and misses the mark for what caught my attention about it) so I guess it just bothers me that what I assume is a lesser-performing series originally serialized thru shonen jump ended up shouldering it's way into a shoujo slot over a better series (or other actual shoujo in general)
edit: I feel the need to clarify that my experience with shoujo was mostly in the early 2000's so i could be missing something but I really just don't understand how anyone feels that RK is a shoujo when it's missing all the VIBES of shoujo
It's a seriously false statement that the video author tried covering up with an "allegedly". Anyway you try to interpret it, it's a statement that can't come from someone who knows about the publication history of either series or even superficially thinks about how publication works.
Snow White with the Red Hair has been published in English since 2019, while Romantic Killer has been published in English since late 2022, both by Viz. Vol. 3 of Romantic Killer and Volume 24 of Snow White with the Red Hair were published on the same exact day. Neither of them influenced the other's publication, and Romantic Killer is a short manga with only four volumes that have now all been published in English.
As for Romantic Killer being perceived as a shoujo, it isn't about vibes-- it's about non-Japanese not being aware of what makes anything shounen/seinen/shoujo/josei: the magazine it's published in. Romantic Killer is a shounen strictly because it was published in a shounen magazine.
Subscribed. I watched a few of your videos quite a while back and loved them. Love your takes on anime/manga! :-)
Top tier content! You’re going to have a lot of new subscribers very quickly (me included)
great video, you need more views!!!
Horimiya definitely feels like shoujo.
Sasamiya is a shoujo feels like the bl version of horimiya. Both are sweet. Please talk about sasamiya
good shit!
I crave shoujo so much . I wanna support every shoujo that are releasing but these are soo shiii that makes me unable to support that . Like bruh what was that romantic killer nd dont get me started w bibliophile princess . Fl is so dumb it made me physically cringe . Ugh i want Tohru,Katarina cute but also have brain . Sugar apple anime is good so far
I like to think of Shounen and Shoujo as umbrella terms. As you stated, there can be many different types of genres under these two umbrellas. One thing that irks me about the anime community is that many people don't think women can like shounen action series or even more ecchi based series. Like not all of us want to be shoved into a box saying we should only watch romance because we are "women" therefore we should only like so called "shoujo" anime. Nah...I wanna see some blood and guts and boobies from time to time 😆
Please talk about your opinion on Aishiteruze Baby, idk if you’ve watched it
What's the name of this anime? 0:42
I watch and read a lot of shoujo and I really don't see how shounen romance and shoujo romance are similar. Shounen romance is usually more simple and light hearted and, if there is any drama or love triangles, they're extremely short lived. The focus is usually either normal daily interactions for the main couple and the drama is mostly seperate from them. Even in the more light hearted shoujo romances, there is always way more emotional weight and drama for the situations the couple are in and the main couple are more centered in it. Plus, the damn love triangles get full story arcs. It's fine if you like that kind of thing but it is just frustrating for me at this point.
I've watched and read a lot of both but that is still a small sample size in the grand scheme of things but the difference has been pretty obvious so far to the point where I'll actively seek out shounen romance if I want to watch something more lighthearted because shoujo is almost garaunteed to have more heavy moments and drawn out tension and drama.
I think kill la kill is very shoujo, on the outside it may look like shounen, but it’s actually about fashion, mother daughter relationships, periods, and the over-sexualization of the female body. All things that lean towards feminine traits
Well it was more Harem which is just ehh regardless if its shonen or shojo.
it's straight up a shonen. the subject matter doesn't matter at all. what determines whether sometimes is a shonen, shojou, seinen, or josei is the demographic it targets and the magazine is published in
@@SemekiIzuio huh? Are we talking about the same anime... there’s no harem...
@@crystalo1186 KLK is an original anime. It has a manga adaptation that was published in a seinen magazine.
It has "girl power" messaging that many women ended up liking but it was made for a male demographic. It's secretly a magical girl anime tho
Based
Okay but hear me out, if anything, I swear Jibaku shounen hanako-kun is a shoujo. I was so shocked when I found out it was a shonen, really.
I dont like romantic killer lol .First ep and Im like meh .
I just really love your videos and definetily your input over all! Your channel deserves more subs ffr. Greetings from Colombia
Bro thinks shoujo invented good storytelling 🤓
You mean plot
@@Allyfyn it's pretty much the same thing. Also you're not going to believe this. But the first shounen and shoujo manga have basically the same artstyle 🤯🤯🤯
@@failedatmakingasandwich423 of course
A lot of shounen and seinen mankaka’s have respect for shoujo and have taken inspiration from them and stated so. He isn’t saying shoujo invented good storytelling💀 but it has helped shounen and seinen mankaka’s to add more to their own works
I am of the belief that Shōnen should stop trying to be shoujo and stick to its roots as a proud shounen fan myself the only shoujo I’ve ever watched Is sailor moon but that’s really it
"the only shoujo I’ve ever watched Is sailor moon but that’s really it"
What's there to be proud of about being close-minded?
Series like "Lovely Complex", "Nana", "Orange" are absolutely amazing.
@@activellabella5076 that’s true
@@activellabella5076 I should look into more
did you not watch the video…
@@activellabella5076 ABSOLUTELY. Lovely Complex is probably top 5 in shoujo hands down
great video as always!