The Ethics of Sacrifice
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 31 май 2023
- Are the systems of ethics we know and love spelling the end of humankind under our noses?
Madoka Magica is a Gen Urobuchi anime with a shoujo, magical girl surface, but a dark and twisted story underneath worthy of many a video essay or analysis. Following Madoka Kaname, Sayaka Miki, Mami Tomoe, Homura Akemi, and Kyoko Sakura, these magical girls appear to fight evil for the sake of good, but did their mysterious benefactor Kyubey, an Incubator, actually mislead them? While these girls make contrast for their powers (any wish in exchange for a lifetime of fighting witches) the terms aren’t exactly clear, one big reveal of the series. While Madoka, Sayaka, Kyoko, and Homura find despair in this truth, Kyubey walks a seemingly cold utilitarian line; this bad deal is actually helping prevent the death of the universe, and it’s in line with the result of human ethics they observe. This conflict leads to interesting ethical questions in the war of Utilitarianism and Deontology, or Bentham vs Kant, but much more so than ends vs means. It asks how do we communicate ethics, and what if we can’t? How do we judge the value of different lifeforms? Can might be right? And, woven into all of that is a discussion of our own world, and how abiding by our human-centric ethics may be the doom or our species. This anime video essay will explain and analyze these considerations and more, as we ask who is right, magical girls or Incubators?
The Ethics of Sacrifice / Domination / Something | An Anime Video Essay Explaining Madoka Magica
#madokamagica #pmmm #anime #videoessay #professorviral 
Развлечения
Kyubey uses the idea of consent as a shield. But even humans are aware that consent between two completely imbalanced parties is no consent at all. It can be tantamount to coercion
A good point I didn't mention, that the situation should be equitable, not just "equal." The disadvantaged side needs more for something which is truly fair
The burden on an option. If a hospitalized, terminally ill individual is suddenly given the option to end their life and save their family thousands in bills, is that coercion or just providing more value in freedom?
@@fireemblemaddict128 What makes it coercive is the balance of power between the two parties entering into the deal. Kyubey has all the information and power and the magical girls are extremely young, vulnerable and have only partial information about the lifetime contracts they are entering. An adult choosing to disconnect life support is not really comparable.
@@ProfessorViral This makes no sense in practice. Plenty of win-win contracts have a superior party, yet by demanding equity, it would make any contract where one side wins more, or has more power, unavailable. In many cases, this would leave the party that needs such a win desperately, to continue to fall into terrible states.
Who gives a shit if the other party wins more, if the lesser party still needs that lesser win over the opportunity cost of a horrific loss when such a contract is made unavailable due to this ironically self-declared high moral standard?
Don't forget the girls are all underage and thus can't give consent. Minors can't enter into legal contracts because they are not mature enough to make informed decisions.
I love how we’re all still talking about Madoka.
It’s a must given how great it is
She literally becomes God to save her freinds
If there's one thing I can do, its talk about the same series for years
Given the series is pretty massive(two animes, twelve mangas, a VN Dungeon Crawler, a Musou, a Gacha and a fair number of drama CDs), it's hard to run out of things to say regarding this franchise. Heck even the manga versions of the anime are worth talking about as they show some of the early concepts for the anime(such as Sayaka actually killing people she dislikes, Homura being openly evil since the original rather than a piece of her negative arc, Kyoko's spear being different, Kyubey's ability to physically emote even if it doesn't feel and even a slightly changed ending).
Great art will be talked for years to come.
To be fair, none of the wishes in Madoka were monkey's paws.
There was no twisting. They each got what they asked for, to the letter and the spirit of their wish, interpreted in their favor.
It's the price of the wish itself which is objectionable.
Especially since the true price isn't on the tag.
The Monkey's Paw situations are more of a spinoffs thing. Such as Suzune's wish to be like her adoptive mother, it gave her copy magic, but she has to kill the Witch form of someone to copy it. Other cases include Yachiyo's wish seemingly giving her plot armor that lets her survive at the cost of others, Sana's wish merely making her invisible rather than actually erasing her, Felicia's wish giving her amnesia rather than undoing her reason to Wish, Niko's wish spawning the Madoka equivalent to Liquid Snake and so on and so forth.
@@jouheikisaragi6075 magia record end of arc 1 game spoilers
.
.
.
.
Yachiyo's magic is not a monkey's paw it does not make others die the survival part of her magic only makes her survive in situations where she wouldn't have not at the cost of others, it also gives her the ability to carry others hope after they die. This does make her more powerful but it doesn't cause any harm to her friends. The reason she feels that its causing her friends to die is that she's a good friend and mentor so those around her are willing to sacrifice themselves for her of their own will, it is not her magic affecting them.
The tragedy is that she thought she was killing her friends when really she was keeping their hope alive after they were gone.
Additionally there's another piece of information about how these wishes work from the game. The wish is more often that not actually what they wanted, It's just that it can be affected by the persons unstable emotions in the moment of a wish. For example Felicia couldn't process what had happened so she did verbally wish and intend for the incident to have genuinely never happened but her emotions warped it so the intention of the wish in that moment was essentially to not have to think about it, thus her false memories and amnesia magic.
The only caveat is girls who make wishes that are too powerful and they don't have the karmic destiny to manifest. Those are often monkey's paws, or at least a rip off.
Like the wish to get a cake that turned the girl into a witch in under 5 minutes?
That may have been off-camera, but it happens during chapter 3 of the main series.
@@lesath7883 She did get the cake, both in spirit and in letter. It was the best cake she ever had. But then she realized she was an idiot and could have wished to have her mom back. And that broke her.
@@williambarnes5023 Just like a monkey paw.
She did get her cake.
Then, the cake hit the fan.
There's one thing to note about Kyubey's understanding of humanity. Kyubey has been shown on multiple occasions to have a level of understanding of humans. He knows what to say and when to say it to coax the girls into making wishes, and has a keen ability to show up when they're most likely to make a wish. Any further lack of understanding can only be considered Kyubey's responsibility at this point.
Why? Kyubey's had the entire sum total of human existence to come to understand humanity. A Spanish person will eventually learn English if they spend enough time in an English speaking country, through a process called emersion. Progress can be quickened by an active attempt by the Spanish person to learn English, and eventually understanding can be reached. Any lack of understanding on Kyubey's part can only be assumed to be deliberate or malicious in nature, or an outright fabrication. I lean towards the latter, they pretend to not fully understand because it's convenient for them, but then, by their own admission, they didn't just observe humanity, they shaped humanity and its rise from cave dwelling apes to an advanced civilization, and doing which in such a way that would eventually result in a society they could exploit REQUIRES an in-depth understanding of humanity. Kyubey is likely fully cognizant of its deception and the immorality of it from a human perspective. Similarly, per the end of your video, the people causing harm are fully cognizant of what they're doing. They just always find a way to justify it, or do not care.
Yes. Absolutely.
Kyubei saying he does not understand is caused by him not wanting to understand.
It is a good rationalization to shift blame into the victims.
I'm not sure, both the Spanish man and English man are human. The kyubey is not. I think the kyubey might be more like a blind man, he might know that you find the sea beautiful but he cannot quite understand why because he's never seen the ocean. Similarly, the kyubey might know we find the ocean beautiful but it cannot feel that sense of beauty and so doesn't understand precisely why beyond brain chemicals go brrr.
Not to say the kyubey isn't lying, it is, but I think it's legitimately fundamentally incapable of understanding why suffering is bad because it doesn't understand suffering and has not capability of empathy and so, no matter how much knowledge they accrue, they won't be capable of fundamentally comprehending why we are offended beyond our biology glitching in illogical manners.
Much the same way we as humans put cattle below us in sentients as an excuse to enjoy delicious BBQ ribs, burgers, and steaks. If you've ever met a cow irl, you know they are alive in much the same way we are. They're dumber, but we make excuses to allow their systematic killing.
In conclusion, if you like burgers then these girls gotta die lol
Those people causing harm I don't have a problem with their "why", I have a problem with their "what (they are doing)" and "how (they are doing it)".
The way I was taught, back during the times of the Founding Fathers of the United States 42% of people voted *_Apathy_* to the concept of going to war for their own good, 20% voted Nay (enemies of the country, dressed as citizens), and the rest voted Yay therefore the war occurred. That is to say that back during the period of time in which people tend to be viewed as most-proactive, 42 out of 100 people either lacked the capability to plan for their future in a concrete sense or lacked the capability work towards it by themselves. This number of people, 42-in-100, must be directed, some might say tyrannized, to work towards anything at all or else they will stagnate and degenerate. Translate that to today when that number has most assuredly gotten worse rather than better and we arrive at a problem: the large, if not vast, majority of the population isn't actually capable of functioning freely no matter how much you or I romanticize and idealize their human potential. Someone has to shepherd the sheep and if good shepherds won't do it evil ones most certainly will
@@shadowpathfinder7723 Alright so putting aside the obvious fact that you're basically just arguing for governance via dictation, the problem with people not being able to decide for themselves largely comes down to poor education. Obviously hundreds of years ago public education wasn't a thing, and so you had a populace that was largely uninformed. Today we do, but the population still remains uninformed regardless.
We have the ability to create a politically capable and informed populace via our public education system. We can give them the tools and information that they need to make informed decisions just as easily as we can give them the tools to do math. We just need the political will to do so, and that's a big no-no, because a politically active and aware populace means it's harder to engage in political corruption.
It's not a question of whether people can be trusted to govern themselves, they can if given the proper tools. Most people after all are, on some level, rational. it's a matter of those tools not being beneficial to enstate for those currently in power.
Kyubey Is easily my favorite antagonist in media. There's a bad guy, then there's the realization of cosmic insignificance in the face of something far beyond our understanding, something that has no regard for our morality not out of injustice or spite... but out of a need to survive on a bigger scale than we can fathom... it's no diffrent than us destroying an ant nest to build a house. Madoka magica hits lovecraftian horror better than most lovecraftian media I've read lmao
Madoka magica pairs perfectly with the book series three body problem by Liu Cixin. Your videos always get me in a thinking mood
It's one of the hallmarks of Urobuchi's best works, that the true villains which are revealed in later stages are representative not of evil, but how evil comes about. Kyubey and Sibyl are both systems which are in some way necessary or accepted because there is true value to them, but at a steep cost
@ProfessorViral very good points thanks for the content you provide you enrich the works these people make by bringing up discussion topics. Anime college lectures
Kyubey is unfortunately only this good in the 2011 anine and mangas, I'd argue it lost a lot of appeal in later stories due to being insignificant(Suzune), out of character(Tart) or just poorly executed(Rebellion, Magia Record). From Cold Indifference of The Universe At Large to petty asshat genie with OCD
Starts off as cute magical girls, quickly becomes death, angst, and darkness, then it takes a turn for the lovecraftian... also, it's all mega gay.
@@jouheikisaragi6075 "just poorly executed(Rebellion, Magia Record)"
Rebellion is a thing because Homura told Kyubey how things were before Madoka rewrote the universe, which was a huge mistake on her part. No matter how small or insignificant the information Kubey receives, it's still information he can and will use in some way, and that's exactly what he did in Rebellion. Just one mistake of Homura was enough for him to gain control again (until Homura turns it around in the end)
I see the whole soul gem thing as nothing but advantageous like Kyubey, but I'd still be mad as Sayaka was for him omitting the detail. If I became a magical girl at like 10, forgetting my soul gem at home with no one around who understood how to help me is absolutely how I'd die.
Pls, if i became a Magical girl it wouldn't take 10mins for me to lose that thing, with how tiny it is 😭
Yeah, it was for the plot reason, but irl Kubey would definitely tell them at least after they made a deal.
Kyube tells them to never lose the soul gem.
Also the soul gems can be transformed to be easily carried like in the form of a ring,heir pin or earring I guess
Also kyube doesn't really omit details so much as he thinks stuff is obvious so he assumes the girls know what would happen
@@feritperliare2890 They know the girls wouldn't agree if they know the whole truth. They definitely avoid the subject unless ask about it. They know what they are doing.
@@feritperliare2890 my soul gem could be transformed into a blinking block of brick and i would still manage to lose it somehow 😂
I just had a thought. Kyuubei stated that "without us, humans would still be living in caves". So wouldn't that mean that the current way humanity lives is, in a sense, still THEIR fault, as them intervening into our evolution caused us to evolve to think like THEM? Is humanity no better than Incubators because we were evolved to think like that through them?
If so, only tangentially. While they did meddle in our species, they simply unlocked the power of a few people, who made wishes to advance the species. They allowed our own will to have more weight. So although it was provided by them, the decisions which made us who we are were still ours. However, this does mean they made their decision before we raised livestock, so it does invalidate the idea that they learned the concept from us, even if they use it for justification
Humans will evolve one way or another with or without their intervention
For what it's worth, humanity is allegedly not the ONLY species the Incubators are harvesting emotional energy from across the universe. Which does make sense given the sheer quantity of energy necessary to hold back entropy, and Kyubey's willingness to write-off Earth with a "Well, I met my quota. Doesn't matter if a world-destroying Witch was born in the process. Time to move on" attitude.
It is bullshit made by Kyubei.
On one hand, Kyubei has a vested interest in pushing the hypothesis that they were instrumental in human development as a rationalization that the sacrifices they demand on humanity provide a benefit.
On the other, how many social or technological advancements have been historically developed by 8 to 13 year olds?
Those are the prime targets of Incubators.
And even while they portray Joane d'Arc and Cleopatra as magical girls, both died and their nationa suffered after their deaths. So, no advancement even from those historical figureheads.
@@ProfessorViral when your bring livestock into the picture i realise their are rigth and do better job then us like let put it in perspective why we still eat pig and not eat dogs even tho pig are equally more intelligence and then i realise objectivity of rigth and wrong doesn't matter in this situation because suffering of this girls will literally save the universe
Even in an audience perspective, the incubators are an amazing antagonist.
I've seen so many people express hatred to Kyubey, even when it's perfectly clear that the ends justify the means looking at this logically.
Our own emotions are holding us back from seeing the bigger picture and are in many ways a hindrance. But at the same time, it's why humans are as developed as we are, and the targets for the incubators to harvest energy to combat entropy.
They get to us even when they're fictional.
Honestly, that cattle point was amazing, and made me realize more girls in magia record should empathize with the incubator's cause, falling into their clutches from an emotion they don't have. That just seems a really good plot device.
Hello Kyubey
I do want to point out one really interesting line where Kyubey mentions that "Emotions were seen as a mental disorder", directly implying that at some point their race used to have emotions before they decided that emotional responses simply got in the way, leading them to surgically or genetically remove their own capacity for emotion to focus on pure logic.
This is why the Kyubey as a species can't just use their own kind, which clearly understands the processes and issues here, to solve the problem. They physically can't. They need to rely on another race and create a self-perpetuating cycle. They physically cannot do this on their own, they NEED to use other people. And, as implied, they are fully aware that if they were fully honest about the terms then nobody would take the deal and that they'd struggle to achieve their goals.
It's like...... Is it immoral to keep one person in a state of constant suffering if it means that everyone else lives in the town lives in absolute peace and prosperity? Oh, but it can't be someone who fully understands this, though, it can't be anyone that KNOWS what the situation is. It has to be someone who doesn't know how bad it'd be, someone who would NEVER understand just how bad this is going to be. Maybe you'd say that if someone fully willingly chose to take on that burden then that's fine, but whenever they lose that agency it becomes something very different.
Another question is.. if there's a choice between having more work to do but everyone is prosperous or one slave stripped of freedom and dignity gives everyone a little more prosperity.
I'd say the essay I know you're referencing but I can't spell.
It wasnt Mami dying, but Kyubei's revelation of how the wishes work that made this anime go from good to fantastic. This is essential anime viewing to me, up there with Evangelion, Akira, amongst others.
Mam8 dying made me take a two week break from watching the series the first time.
Kyubei's reveal of the debaucherous logic behind their system made me think. And rage.
I love how the anime goes from lighthearted magical girl story into horror survival (ch 3), into a zombie story (ch 6), into the reveal that puella become witches (ch 8), into a time-traveling drama (ch 10), all sprinkled with aliens spewing physics nonsense, and eventually a multiverse of paralel dimensions (ch 12) all clashing and changing due to a realignment of the fundamental rules of existence.
The story takes so many turns that a aingle viewing is not enough to digest it all.
@@kallistikaleid Honestly its the part where Madoka throws the egg and Sayaka almost dies
It also killed the genre, but that's... fine, we'll just have to wait until we have another Gurren Lagaan style event for the magical girl concept. EVA basically did the same thing for mecha anime, after all.
@@DancerVeiled Tokyo mew mew got a remake.
PreCure is getting a new season right now, and is going for its 13th or so season.
Madoka allowed space for other work like Magical Girl Site to become more popular.
Unless you are talking about the old magical girl shows like Lumlum, which died before the rise of the magical girl warrior like Sailor Moon.
The omission is strategic, not just for the sake of obtaining agreement. It's because more negative emotions can be harvested when there is no chance for magical girls to discover the truth beforehand and make their choice knowingly and at peace with it. If they reconcile themselves with the necessity of suffering, then they are suffering a little bit less.
That's a great point. We can't forget that the nature of this solution requires cruelty to work. The greater the cruelty, the greater the return. What makes it such a great premise - there's no easy way out of the dilemma.
Also in magia record shows Kyubey making sure each girl gets the most out of their wish, even asking clarifying questions to get the desired wish. And in one of nagisa's transformation we see the true form of Kyubey, an eldrich like creature that made of eyes and connected tissue appearing like a neural network. And soft confirms Kyubey to be a single consciousness
Also in the subimental material clarifies that Homura's time traveling is actually her traveling to parallel universes.
edit: my bad it wasn't nagisa but the little kyubey transformation. timestamp: 0:19 to 0:23
ruclips.net/video/VUjOEFx2xjg/видео.html
We already knew that about Homura though because Kyubey says that each time she time travels, she attaches the karmic destiny of that universe to the Madoka in her current one.
>parallel universes. ooof
Not true. He deliberately lies to Felicia to make her believe her parents were killed by a Witch and manipulates her wish to that effect.
What Nagisa’s transformation? I wanna see that lol
@@henazz2561 she got two transformations in Magia Record
I love how teenage angst is considered so powerful, it can reverse entropy itself.
Just... something about that entertains me so.
One thing that’s taken for a fact in this video that I think is a mistake is taking Kyubey at their word in regards to how the incubators supposedly help humanity.
I think the idea that, without the deals with things like Kyubey, humans would still be living in caves is pretty unbelievable. We only have their word and Kyubey is more then willing to lie to get what they want.
They also are completely okay with their actions wiping humans out. Since Kyubey is very nonchalant about witch madoka destroying the planet. Only saying that it’s our problem.
Also, the incubators had a more ethical method after what Madoka did. They still were getting energy but immediately choose to try to return to the previous system solely because it got more energy, faster. They have no concern for human betterment as Kyubey pretends.
(And yes I am also angry at the state of the world. Working to live is not what I want.)
Exactly. We had what they couldn't produce themselves, but was humanity really such a valuable resource to begin with if that was their reaction to its extintion?
And then there's the Incubators having no issue with offering the deal to girls outside of the adolescent age, the "most ideal timeframe", or pushing magical girls into despair themselves (see Nagisa Momoe's backstory in Magia Record for both).
They don't even need to hold on to their supposed "standards". As long as it is an emotional ticking time bomb that can produce the most amount of energy, f*ck everything else!
And do we even need to talk about their experimentation on Homura's Soul Gem by this point?
Srsly, F*CK some systems in our world...
Humans have always had to work to live. All animals do. The problems now are how much we have to do it, how little we get in return, and that equal labor does not result in equal benefits.
@@Kaylakaze I think I meant to type living to work lmao and wrote the other way on accident but yeah you’re right
Oh you think that's bad? According to the existence of Ixtli, non-human sentient life is actually not rare and alien Magical Girls exist, Ixtli being an Alien Witch that may have wandered to earth either in search of prey or to warn mankind of Kyubey, but she was too late and arrived as a Witch with a Kyubey shaped head
They wouldn't want humanity to get wiped out, we're their source of energy!
Tho I suppose they don't care if people die en masse as long as there are enough left and the species keep on existing
Also they DO actually have some Incubators who develop emotions, they call it a rare condition, and even then those emotions are nowhere near on the same scale as the ones humans have.
And they treat them like an illness that needs to be cured.
they describe it as a "mental disorder"
I think it's interesting how the age of the girls wasn't mentioned here.
There's a reason "age of consent" is a thing in our society. A child's mind is still growing, developing.
Even if you know something is dangerous, as a child you can't fully comprehend the consequences. Even death. It's easy for a teenager to believe it won't happen to them. (Hell adults do it all the time and they SHOULD know better.)
Kyubey could never get true consent from teenage girls. Even if it explained everything in full. Kyubey also knows that teenage girls are easily manipulated. The deception IS intentional.
kyubey is no better than us
*IF YOU NOTICED A CONTRADICTION* please read this before commenting. A few people have pointed out that the point of Kyubey learning their system from how we treat cattle is inconsistent with the statement that their interference is what allowed us to advance. This is true, and something i overlooked. Although i dont believe this means we learned the system from them either; they didnt tell us how to advance, they simply unlocked our power to do so. However, i still believe the point i made holds weight for consideration for our world. As others have pointed out, what would AI thinking learning this from us? I appreciate all the comments, but there are so many so i dont want to respond to the same point too often when there are many great ones!
The thing about sacrifice is its kinda like the golden rule where it just doesn’t work in practice. Just ends up causing a cycle of “you would like that wouldn’t you?” Like of course it is more convenient to you for me to sacrifice myself to you thats why you encourage sacrifice in society. You never mean yourselves really
Those in power will always benefit from others's sacrifices.
in the rebellion after-credits scene, there’s a shot of kyuubey looking really messed up and it’s implied that he finally got a taste of his own medicine because of homura. the incubators really couldn’t handle the emotional distress they were dishing out, you’re absolutely right
Honestly lets just throw another wrench into all of this: Throughout the series we have a couple examples of situations where one way or another someone isn't viewing the real world in its viewable entirety. The humans who see the Witches as natural disasters, the Magical Girls who can see past that illusion supposedly, and so on. In the movies, we are even given an example of the Incubators changing someone's view of the entire world, and of Homura going through an experience that can best be described as "A psychedelic hellscape of all her hopes and fears", and comes out of that on the other side with a realization that she's been put in another cycle and is now fighting Wraiths instead of Witches.
There is absolutely no reason to believe this isn't a Demiurge scenario: A seemingly omnipotent being controls enough of the world to create an illusion that hides its true nature and enacts seemingly needless suffering for its own gain.
Don't Believe Its Lies
／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼: Silly ProfessorViral, don't listen to that obvious witch
Consider as well, that not every girl gets an offer from Kyuubei. If the goal is producing as much energy as possible while maintaining renewability, then they must have some kind of system of determining which girls would be the best candidates.
Then consider that of the girls we know about, they've all got some kind of situation going on that makes them particularly vulnerable, or in Mami's case, not really being given a proper choice to begin with.
Whatever Kyuubei says, I can't believe that they have no ill will towards humanity unless they have a really bonkers way of viewing ill will. Or like, that they don't see us as anything more than a resource, the same way someone farming trees for firewood might appreciate those trees and take care of them as best they can... but only because they need the firewood to survive and there's no point cutting down a tree before it's fully grown.
The problem is that this system requires cruelty to work. If they soften the blow as much as possible, they don't get as much energy. This makes it extremely hard to judge their intentions by their actions, which is awfully convenient for them. There is still the fact that we have no way to know if they're telling the truth and no real reason to trust them. They make things sound too good to be true, which probably means it is. Furthermore, there's little reason to believe someone will fulfill their promises when they hold to a "by any means necessary" philosophy. We've seen what they do when they succeed in getting Madoka to make a wish, and they don't necessarily intend to uphold the contract with humanity if they can benefit from our extinction.
Mami- Her wish let her survive, but her entire family died in the crash. Kyubey probably expected this to immediately crush her (similar to Nagisa)
Homura- nothing short of a miracle that she lasted as long as she did, given the circumstances
Sayaka- realizing that Yosuke didn't like her back no matter what she did, which is what happened
Kyoko- being cast out by her family/Her being as young as she was when she made her wish, anything really. Like Mami, she lasted longer than expected
Madoka- Madoka is special, as there isn't really anything specific. Losing all her friends? Realizing she can't help all of those suffering in the world? Madoka likes to hide her emotions/how she really feels, but she is pure hearted. For her final wish, I assume kyubey just underestimated her and believed she couldn't handle all the despair she took on
Pre-vid: this is one of the hardest things for a first-time madoka watcher to get. Kyubey sucks, but he doesnt know/think that. Feels like gis race is a study in the Trolly Problem and understandably as humans with emotions we see the issue.
Yeah, they were put into the trolley problem but reached the point most people haven’t. They got to the point where they actually had to choose
@ViridianCrisis that's why it's sad.madoka gets it but for real emotion driven reasons doesn't want it but kyubey just cant
It is something I wanted to highlight in this to try and make sense of that extra layer of ethics included in the series. It's not that Kyubey is trying to be evil, he simply doesn't even have a concept of evil
God i love how you related Madoka Magica's broken system to our's in the real world. absolutely one of my favorite anitubers!
It's what I love about Urobuchi's work. It takes the fundamental flaws of our systems, shows how and why they came to be, and leaves us the room to explore how to fix it, without ever preaching a solution
it’s so funny (and sad) that literally all of our problems can be related back to capitalism in some way
@@ProfessorViral Step one:
Turn back time to the magical days when our Madoka saved our life when we were bummed out.
I think it's more like he just used it to spout communist ideals.
This hurt, but like a muscle that was stretched further than accustomed. Fine points, sir.
It's a good way to put a lot of topics I cover, I like that. Glad it was helpful, even if uncomfortable
Kyouko's question to the incubator isn't quite the same as the one asked by Homura.
"Is there some way we can bring her back?" Kyubey knows there is one. But instead of saying "Yes, have Madoka wish for it!" he says its never been done before.
"Did Kyouko's plan have any chance of succeeding?" No, and she should have known it was impossible.
Then you read Tart Magica and realize it was lying.
Kyubei lies all through the story.
He believes that any and all tricks he uses are justified, as long as he can get that energy potential locked in Madoka.
@@jouheikisaragi6075 It is necessary to pay attention to the canonicity of the works.
For once the only things that are 100% canon are the anime, the movies, the Wraitc manga and the existence of Magia Record as a separate universe.
The rest is to be taken with a grain of salt.
@@ouranosaloha1933 the only non canon manga is Tamura. The rest are all canon, there is nothing about them that says so otherwise. In fact, Magia Record further canonizes them and the likes of Kazumi Magica and Oriko Magica were both specifically produced alongside the anime and are part of its lore and continuity, this also goes to Different Story, which doubles as an extension of Episode 10 and something of a lost episode because of how it recontextualizes all the anime in a way that is arguably larger than Episode 10.
"The mangas aren't canon" argument sounds like an excuse by people who didn't know about them to justify not reading them and still trying to talk like they know shit.
@@jouheikisaragi6075Already who are you talking to? I just said to take a grain of salt with the others and you exicte yourself.
Idk how you produce so many high quality videos in such a short period of time, your videos are always a fun watch and I always look forward to the next one.
My doctor said something about how I did it, I think it was "insanity" or something like that
@@ProfessorViral lmfao
After having worked in a corporation for 5 years before quitting, experiencing the 5 and a half hours of brainfoggy time to myself during evenings, and witnessing the fleeting weekends go by as fast as they did, the ending rant was a gruelling gut punch. I need to find a way out.
“How do you ask a cow about freedom?”
-professor viral
I want to see this on one of those inspirational quote templates you find online
When a FATE writer had their hands on a magical girl story, shits gonna go wild
I love that after the series was written, the staff who specially brought in Urobuchi to write a dark series said "it was darker than we thought it would be"
That guy also wrote Saya no Uta. Which is based af and I recommend everyone to read it. It's not long.
@@dreamwolfnektovich1944 its not long but will linger in your head for God knows how long
It fucked me up real bad, and I'm a sucker for eldritch monstrosities
gen urobuchi is above "only" fate/zero. I love type-moon but what you said is kinda reductive or over-represent fate/ on his name. not to mention if someone say about "fate/ writer" most people would probably refer to Nasu.
When a FATE writer has their hands on a magical girl story, you get Prisma Illya ... until 3rei makes you cry (not to the degree of Madoka Magica though)
"get angry. get mad. break the contract if it isn't fair, make Kyubey take the contract back! I'm gonna make Kyubey rue the day he removed my soul from my body and give me powers! you know who I am?! I'm the magical girl that's gonna who's gonna find a wat to burn kyubeys plans to the ground! with these powers!"
When life gives you soul gems...
@@ProfessorViral indeed.
magical girls weren't my cup of tea before madoka, and still aren't, but it's still one of my favorite animes ever, thank you for covering it V
Try good magical girls. Madoka is a work which hugely missunderstands the point of the genre and its tropes.
@@rindou97 hmm fair point, I'll give it a shot
@@dumpsterDeity He doesn't subvert anything in Madoka. There isn't a single part of Madoka which subverts anything. There is nothing Madoka does that other previous Magical Girls hadn't done before. Sailor Moon. Princess Tutu. Nanoha. Doremi. Minky Momo. Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne. All have done things which people claim Madoka "subverted". Now, if we go to the "magical girls for boys", which would be tokusatsus like Kamen Rider... suprise! Madoka takes a lot from Kamen Rider Ryuki, Kamen Rider Blade, Kamen Rider Agito and Kamen Rider Faiz. Madoka is no super original subvertive series, is just some magical girl which doesn't get what encompases being a magical girl, thus wasting key elements, and its key difference being "it has shaft's unique style". (tho princesss tutu and utena also featured unique styles... and doremi too... well, let's just say they weren't done by shaft... even if Shaft was hugely inspired by Utena's imagery...)
@@rindou97 I'm starting to think there aren't any simply because you made the choice to omit any recommendations
@@mrjpeg-cl5jy Princess Tutu. Nanoha. Precure (Happiness Charge, Fresh, Suite, A la Mode, Go Five...). Cardcaptor Sakura. Magic Knight Rayearth. OJAMAJO DOREMI. Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne. Etc.
I was never angry at kyubi. To the best of my ability i took what kyubi said very seriously because, i saw that it was in controll.
It did what it thought was right for the greater good and treated the magical girls better than a lot of employers did.
At some point in history it even attempted to be very clear with its deal and saw a overall negative impact vs leaving it out and only a few figuring it out.
I would argue that the kyubei have no ability to affect the heat death of the universe rather than humans dont. While its clear that humans as they exist now cant harness emotional energy to keep the universe going. They *alone produce the energy that can.
The other thing is that kyubei understand that they are being deceptive. They wouldnt bother coming up with moral justifications if they felt they were behaving in a way that wasnt immoral( to us.) Theyve come up against countless people expressing that they beleive theyve been treated unfairly and they take steps to hide information so that the desired goal is met regardless of potential protests.
If they respected our autonomy they would set up a stand at a career fair or a college or something, Not abduct preteens. Its established morality in almost everywhere that children cant sign contracts. That expecting a teenager to to be able to make life and death judgements is unfair and unethical.
Never seen the show but its always a fun conversation topic!
*All information about the goals and abilities of the kyubei are suspect but if they told truthfully that humans help prevent the heat death of the universe by foghting eachother than these things are true.
You're right it's nowhere near fair, even just helping something be fair for someone else on an objective level costs so much. Much more subjective support. Most days it feels like humanity will just end with us all hating each other and never growing past a single problem. Or wind up subsumed by a demiurge entity born from a world superpower or machine giving us real/fake Happiness. Eternal problems can be solved with eternal effort, but I'm a failure, "and if only He'd change then we could work together." I don't want to be a burden, but I also really want to be happy because I made a difference.
Contradictorily I like cows both because I think they're great friendly animals and I like how they taste. Contradictions like than in people tear them up all the time or grow callous and cold.
This show scarred me for ages... It's one of my favorite pieces of fiction ever created.
I can barely watch the summary without crying and it's been so many years now.. Mostly because of the music at this point..
Edit: End rant was good
In summary, being meguca is suffering
Yep!
I REALLY LIKED WHEN YOU USED COMPARISONS (for ex: When you compared how we treat life stock to show that our actions are similar to that of the incubators) THAT REALLY HELPED ME TO EXPAND MY THOUGHTS ON THIS SUBJECT ALSOO THE TRANSTION FROM MODOKA TO THE REAL WORLD WAS LITERALLY SO SMOOTH! THIS WAS A SUPER WELL MADE VIDEO! GOOD JOBB!!
I forgot to mention that the comparisons really helped because I was kind of having a hard time understanding some of the concepts you talked about because this was my first time being introduced to them so it simplified it in a way that I could wrap my head around because at some points in the video you were losing me when you talked about more abstract concepts LOL but I think I understood it better during the latter part of the video!! ANYWAYS I REALLY DID ENJOY THIS VIDEO MODOKA MAGICA IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE SERIES EVER MADE SO I WAS HYPED ASF WHEN I SAW THE THUMBNAIL THANKS FOR MAKING THIS
Oh man, this is a great one.
leaving your wonderful beyond-the-story conclusion aside, we can get to an answer by combining two of the insights you present.
That of informed consent, and that of communication being possible, even via charades w/ a language barrier.
If one cannot communicate the consent needed for a deal, then it cannot be morally done. While imperfect beings will fail to reach that ideal, that's the core of it.
No matter how long such charades takes to come to a common understanding/language, that's the prerequisite.
.
One important topic that is almost specifically addressed is how essential honesty is. The moment that honesty comes into doubt, the idea of negotiating a deal looses all pretense of mutual benefit.
.
The ideal is just a little past "mutually beneficial cooperation".
It's mutually beneficial cooperation **based on coexistence**. Leaving the other party to their own life by default, then only touching their lives with that informed consent.
Secretly existing and meddling with the human world (intentionally acting to hide the truth of their presence), handing out wishes, ect, is by itself hostile. After all, the incubators know which girls will say yes. They don't need to personally coerce them, because simply observing a huge population to find the moments of vulnerability achieves the exact same effect.
.
Back to RL, as others have said, "It is social__ or barbarism"
Kyubey is the ultimate capitalist, the powerful billionaire draining energy out of his contracted workers until their death in exchange for a tiny wish (minimum wages that cost practically nothing to him) and "hope" of a better life. The billionaire feels moral giving all these peasants jobs (wishes) that didn't exist before him, giving us enough life to keep being useful to him. This is an equivalent exchange in his eyes, look at how much "good" he's given humanity, his life will always be more important than ours. 🧐 Your rant at the end put one of my favorite stories into another perspective for me, gotta watch the whole series over again. Thank you
No one is forcing anyone to work a bad job in a capitalist society. You can do any job you like if you just work towards it.
@@jukebox_heroperson3994 everyone should be paid a living wage in congruent with inflation regardless of the job they work. No worker deserves to suffer in poverty because they work a "bad job"
@@kupotenshi Some jobs are worth more than others.
@@jukebox_heroperson3994 In what world is the CEO of a company more important than a plumber or doctor. Wealth has never been attached to how "worthy" your job is. You sound like a child.
@@jukebox_heroperson3994so be it, but the lowest paying job should still be enough to survive
Yooo, i never thought of the possibility Kyubey's species might be one big hivemind! That's awesome! Your takes on this series are really fun to listen to, because i always end up with something i hadn't thought of before!
I mean the being known as “Bipedal Kyubey” exists and he seems different from most of the Kyubey’s (he’s even referred to as “Bunny”. It’s still a big possibility tho
LETS GOOO ANOTHER MADOKA MAGICA ANALYSIS VIDEO TO OBSESS OVER GOD BLESS
Happy to provide haha
I love how when someone comes up with a reason for the end of the world, everyone starts freaking out about it. Like "hey guys, just found out the world is going to be eaten by the sun, in like billions of years." And everyone's like "oh my God, the world's going to end, we're all going to die, oh my god." And he's just like, "guys, calm down, we have billions of years."
Got a lot of inspiration for a story I'm working on from this one! Thank you so much
Of course, I'm happy to hear that!
There is a line in Gurren Lagann that has always stuck with me. “We do not need to understand. We only need to know.”
Kyubey’s people truly do not seem to understand how and why humans act the way they do, but they do know how humans act. That is enough to make an informed ethical choice. I do not understand why putting a cucumber next to an unsuspecting cat can cause it to react with a rapid, defensive retreat or swift aggressive attack. But I know that it happens, and that is enough to make an informed decision, simply based on observation, that it is not a beneficial thing to do.
That the incubators choose to withhold information, lament the shortcomings of humans they do tell everything to, and pointedly hesitate to provide some information when directly asked indicates that if they do not understand why, they KNOW that their actions are distressing to the girls they make deals with.
In my view this absolutely justifies judging them by our human ethical standards. The incubators have optimized their energy collection process not to do the least harm, but to maximize gains. Even if their method is, sincerely, utterly necessary for the survival of the universe, there is nothing to suggest that any human couldn’t potentially supply a surplus. They did not have to target children. They did. They did not have to withhold information on their deals and overall goals. They did. They did not have to operate in the shadows of human society. They did.
It is these known, deliberate choices that make the incubator’s actions malevolent- at the least toward humans.
"Do you feel any guilt or remorse over the livestock you consume?" Yes. Yes I do. The only reason I'm not vegan is because I have such difficulty eating many vegetables that I fear I'd starve to death if I tried that. And I want to live, but not to feed to system. I want to live so I can learn, share what I learn, and watch the world in hopes that the it will eventually become like the one I can imagine. I honestly believe Kyubey when he says that he treats us better than we treat livestock, and in that it's hard for me to fault him. Even knowing everything I do, I'd still make the contract if for no other reason than to be able to persist with lower maintenance. (Boy do I hate maintenance; both for the things I have responsibility for and for my own body. There is little more infuriating to me than doing the same tasks knowing I'll have to do the exact same thing the next day or the next week.) Somewhat hilariously, one of the aspects of "the [world] I can imagine" is transhumanism and what could potentially be done to one's body. Little would I know in-universe that that would already be fulfilled simply by the contract itself. The truth of the Soul Gem is not just not a downside to me, but actively a selling point. (You can bet that I would do tests disconnecting my Soul Gem from my body to see if I could regain consciousness in that state.)
I think the problem lies with the fact that kyubey's actions break the Hippocratic oath, where yours does not. Humans require nutrients from food to survive. You cannot receive all of that nutrients from plants, therefore you must eat meat. Kyubey could easily reframe the wish process as a deal with the devil. However, since it isn't the most efficient system, they choose to add collateral damage from witches into their system. It's even worse than how we treat animals as we don't leave it to them to slaughter each other for the meat we need unlike kyubey.
I don’t
Some do, some don't
Generally animals don't feel guilt over consuming their food, even if its other animals
Humans need to eat meat. The way it is done may be bad, but the act of eating meat is as human as breathing.
I don't feel guilt over eating them, just like I don't feel concerned about my body being consumed by worms after my death. I do however feel guilt/remorse over treating them miserably. Eating livestock isn't the moral problem, but letting them live miserably in order to eat them is. (you could still argue we cut their life short, but I think that would be compensated by protecting from predators&illness and feeding them their whole life and is less significant than the awful treatment)
This touched on undeveloped thoughts I've had since 2020 started, or at least the realization that I can be sacrificed for the herd. My answer to a lot of these questions throughout the video ended up being "as long as its not me or someone I care about". Near the end of your video the fear really set in, how weak I am in strength, willpower, status, and knowledge that I don't really have that choice.
I adore this show, and listening to 40 minute lore/theory/discussion videos while I'm doing something will never be boring for me.
Glad to be a part of it 😁
My new favorite youtube channel by far, havent sat down and watched anime in years but reminding why i did love it so much back then. Keep up the great content!
A banger as always man so glad I found this channel.
Happy you did and the videos have been enjoyable!
Well, that was unexpected but a quite timely ending. I suppose it's.worth considering that both Madoka and Homura's solution was revolution...
*Lelouch intensifies*
To be replaced with what though? That's the problem.
@@Voltroc I can understand that some people are dissatisfied by the current system. I have the luck that my education and work environment is not as grueling as the ones of many other people. And I also see that many technologies are claimed to make life more efficient, but cost of living gets more expensive, not less.
But what I also see is that no work at all is a strange illusion. Any food has to be grown and transported, any house has to be built and repaired. Any piece of luxury (phone, transportation, toilet) has a long chain of industry behind it. Some can be simplified to the point where local people can do them with little outside input. But in the end many things we consider as normal are not possible without a global network of industry and economy. If we try to live free from corporations we will inevitably fall back to the stone age.
In my opinion the main problem is not that we have to work, it is the morals and the culture of the people who participate within the workplace. And I don't just talk about the greedy capitalist and the corrupt politician. I speak from any participant from the lowest job to the highest.
Also I know a few people who were not capable of working, some temporary, and in all those cases the mental health was not really any better. You just change one set of problems for another. Sure, some work is worse than the inactive dependence of some faceless money giver and the purposelessness some people feel when they can't do anything for society. But no work at all is not the best outcome there is. Working for small to medium local companies is the ideal in my opinion. The ones where the region is the customer and the boss knows the workers. As all humans are faulty to some degree, I don't think that is a perfect world. But at least some of the biggest problems will be lesser in that way.
Despair comes from the anger to change when confronted with the self delusion of an inability to act.
I think you bring up some great points about our society and the human race as a whole and this video deserves more recognition
I have only recently come across your works, and I must say, I am better for them. I have so little reason to contemplate the rights and wrongs and pains and joys of being alive these days. Hearing your eloquence reaffirms something old in me. Something that used to care so much, I would scream.
I didn't know how much I missed that Harley. I was so angry, but I knew I cared.
Thank you. I do hope the gods keep time for you to continue to create essays like this, because I would love to watch countless more.
Yep it's worth studying philosophy if that is the reason for me understanding your videos.
And with all this talk about aliens, I have to remember that my ethics class in school voted uniformly that if aliens come to earth and want to eat us, they can do that. Because we do the same thing with animals, so it is fair.
(sorry if my sentences are not quite correct, english is not my mother tongue😅)
God damn, I wish I had your ethics class haha. Mine was honestly very boring and never interested me, it wasn't until Psycho-Pass that I cared for the subject
@ProfessorViral My ethics class was indeed pretty interesting, we had some cool topics like satanism. But it was mostly our teacher who talked and we were just like 6 people in her class, so I guess it was for at least some of us boring. I always loved it and searched for anime who were having philosophical themes in it.
Hmmm…
Yes and no.
As in, the animals we kill to eat are usually livestock, we keep their race from getting extinct (by feeding them and giving them the chance to reproduce) and, in turn we slay a percentage of them for our own consumption, of course they probably wouldn’t agree with that but… I mean, they’re animals, we couldn’t communicate with them even if we wanted to.
In the case you’ve described, that doesn’t happen, they just come, kill us and eat us, which would be no different from us going to, let’s say a rainforest and hunting a species to extinction.
Now, let’s be clear, this kind of thing has *totally* happened with us humans too (with, for example, the American bison) but I think it’s fair to say it would be very frowned upon nowadays.
Now, if they did offer as something (as in, futuristic technology or something like that) then you could argue that it is fair for them to just slaughter us on masse but you would still need to contend with the fact that, unlike animals, we have a more developed consciousness so we can (and should) decide on our lives for our own.
Those that want to sacrifice themselves should be able to do so, those that don’t, not. That kind of thing.
There’s also the case of hunting (either for sport or illegally) but that’s a rabbit hole on itself
I mean while it's fair that they "can do that", is there really anything ethical about whether or not something "can eat you"? If they have more power and can eat you then they will eat you.
Yes, we can hold them to our system of ethics. They clearly know it and they are an individual, just one spread out among many different bodies. Thus, they should go by our system due to them being the outsider in the situation.
One of the pillars of depression in this day and age is falling short of societal expectations:
"I'm almost 30 now, and I still have no husband."
"How am I 26 and still not graduated yet?"
"Why can't I break this addiction? What am I doing wrong?"
I'm sure a plethora of other horrible little nothings whispered to our minds can be further imagined. They trap and ensure us, draining vitality from us.
You hit the nail on the head towards the end.
We are beyond the value we can produce in this world. We are inherently valuable and precious, deceived by false pretenses that if you just work hard enough, "you'll make it." It's a trap, an illusion, vain and vapid.
"You'll make it" is a mindset, not a destination. Love yourself. Remind yourself you are worthy of love, and if grace abound, spread that love to others. Life is too short to not make that choice to see what is valuable in yourself and others. May you see it in everything you see and do.
This video went a direction that I am surprised with, but also pleased.
Madoka Magica: Eat the Rich
Real magical girls dismantle the oppressive systems 💙
Interestingly the way Kyubei phrases it, the gender of the magical girls themselves doesn't actually matter all that much, it's purely that they find it more efficient to manipulate teenage girls into despair and thus Witches, likely because of just how sharp the mood swings can be in estrogen-induced puberties. (They phrase it in the show as girls being more emotional but that's a crappy stereotype that hurts people of all genders so I'm giving the show the benefit of the doubt there.)
I 100% believe that kyubey has targeted young boys before
Yeah, it's one of the few things I don't like about the series, that a creature almost entirely of logic makes that statement which just isn't true
@@ProfessorViral And it's not like there was that much pressure to make it girls only when logically guys should still be able to participate, Lyrical Nanoha had already done that a decade earlier so there's precedent. (The focus was always on it's main 2-3 girls, so it was still very distinctly a magical girl show, but side characters could be whoever.)
@@ProfessorViral I like to believe that Kyubey is trying to make Madoka feel even worse about her situation so she can hurry up and make that wish already because I've seen people talk down to girls like that in order to get a rise out of them to prove their point.
Also I don't think a genderless being like Kyubey would really even care about gender, their only distinction to him is which one has more vulnerable people at the moment and how he can take advantage of it.
@@ProfessorViral So I've actually thought about this for a while, and I'm not the only one, but I wonder why are there no magical boys? Kyouske would have ideally been a perfect choice for Kyubey, seeing how much he loved to play the violin and how depressed he was at the thought of his hand being so injured he could never play again.
And then that got me to wonder if Kyubey being a logical character is going off of "data" so to speak. We're slowly breaking this stereotype, but for a long time it's been socialized for boys not to show emotion or vulnerability. Maybe historically speaking there were magical boys at some point, but as this stereotype of "boys are weak if they show emotion" became more widespread, it's possible the Incubators just decided to focus on finding teenage girls as potential magical girls instead. Kyubey seems to prioritize efficiency a lot, so it would make sense that he would simply put more focus on a demographic that at the very least *appears* to provide the best candidate simply because it's more likely to happen.
It's not a perfect theory, but it would make more sense to me if that was the thought process instead of Kyubey making a sweeping generalization.
That speech at the end about our lives, hit really hard with me
I'm good at one things and it's somewhat depressing rants
Glad to have you revisit Madoka again! It's been a while since I sat down for your analysis video, and your skills as a RUclipsr have much improved!
This was a Nice essay. I love the style of wish presented in the show in the horror that comes after due to said wish. Anytime someone is talking about madoka (or Sailor Moon lol) My ears perk up. I’ll have to check out a few of your other video essays great job thanks for uploading.
This is probably the most interesting video on the ethics and philosophy of the Madoka Magica universe
I like that you managed to end the video with a great anti-capitalism rant.
What disappoints me about the video is that you never covered the Wraith situation: that there was a less efficient but more humane option that the Incubators could take, but they not only choose not to, but when Madokami enforces that system, they actively seek to overturn it.
I take the ending as a sort of anomaly. It was something only made possible through Madoka changing the universe, and so changing the basics of the problem. Now, their attempt to recreate it in Rebellion is a take that definitely comes off as much more actively cruel
It isn't so much an anti-capitalist rant as it is a rant about the need to work, which was not invented by capitalism, similarly to the need to be useful to other people to get reciprocation, which is true in everything, including how people talk about healthy relationships, which is what getting a wage for working is, an exchange. It is very clearly ranting about the very state of the human condition, and I stand by this even with him going against what I say. If I presume a bunch of shite and say that the world is real, real, and that my perception of it is correct and that all shite, I can safely say that if I say I was criticising water bottles when really I was criticising toilets, regardless of what I say, I was criticising water bottles.
Yeah sure, but that removed the point the video is trying to make in comparing us to the Incubators. It would signifigantly weaken his argument of active malice in terms of intent.
@@Cecilia-ky3uw Great, now ChatGPT bots are on RUclips making insane comments.
@@Kaylakaze I'll take that as a compliment.
The problem is capitalism is crushing the life force and labor out of the vast majority of us far more than is actually needed for us to survive and be comfortable
All that excess value is siphoned off to the very few who don't need it while millions have developed mental and physical health problems and denied medical care and housing because of the consequences of it
Fantastic video and continues to show just how intelligent of a show Madoka really is.
Madoka is so painfully deep, there are so many layers to it that can raise so many questions. It’s one of the most amazing anime’s that I think everyone should watch, even those who don’t watch anime
It definitely think it's worth a watch. It helped me to begin understanding a lot of what's important to me today!
Yes, I agree! It's such an amazing anime and all the characters are so fleshed out. Also... nice Vivia pfp
@@anon6742 thanks
just what i needed now, a professorVira, video!!!
Glad I could provide!
from the title I thought this would be about Rebellion, with Madoka and Homura rejecting each other's sacrifices for each other's sake and replacing them with their own sacrifices in a loop.
Thank you. I am trying to novelize my thesis on the hero's journey adapted to our times and its relationship with messianism and it was Madoka Magica precisely the one that encouraged me to do it. It's a pity that my knowledge of the English language is limited. If someone is able to translate some subtitles into Spanish, I would be very grateful.
Oh hey, this is a brilliant analysis and I am rather impressed by your willingness to end it on an honest if painful non-conclusion.
I feel like one thing always left out in this entire discussion is whether or not letting the universe continue indefinitely is even a good thing in the first place. Like most of our species and lively hoods would most likely die and go extinct before heat death really sets in, and non living things in the universe have no feelings or thoughts to care about an end. A life spent entirely just to continue itself doesn't seem like a life worth living either. I think the incubators aren't logical beings at all because of this, I think they're mindlessly following instinct and using numbers as a justification for their own shortsightedness.
I know the idea that death and ending as a good thing is foreign to western audiences, but I think an important thing to remember is that if you dont exist (after you die) you won't care that you ever lived at all or know you were ever alive, you wouldn't exist to think those thoughts at all. It's neither a bad or good thing. The assumption that death is bad in every sense of the word is a very big assumption that nobody ever backs up with evidence, therefore I have come to the conclusion that death is not a problem that needs to be fixed. The problem that needs to be fixed, in my opinion, is the suffering we experience while we're alive.
Based on this idea, I believe that being born is the single worst thing that a person will ever experience, as it is the only way any of us can experience pain. I'm not advocating for anyone to hurt themself with that information, as being alive also allows us to experience great joys that are impossible without being born, but experiencing these joys isn't a guarantee for everyone, and prolonging life just for the sake of prolonging life is a sure-fire way to ensure that NOBODY gets to experience joy.
I wrote this before nearing the end of the video and this actually aligns with your anti-capitalism argument a bit just in a different way, same conclusion, different philisophical idea.
Your argument is flawed because it, like so many, is human-centric. This isn't a discussion of real life, it's discussing a fantasy anime where we know that at least _one_ non-human, sapient species exists in the cosmos. Knowing that there are at least two, it would be foolish to assume that there aren't potentially more and that they, like the Incubators, don't have the same biology and lifespan as humans.
You specifiy _our_ species and _our_ livlihoods will naturally go extinct before the heat death of the universe, but what of the potential others? You talk of humans and non-living things as if those are the only options even when, in real life, there are non-human living things that think and feel, and not necessarily in ways that you or I think and feel. Perhaps in the world of Madoka Magica, there are sentient, sapient lifeforms that have lifespans hundreds, thousands of times as long as ours but who don't produce as much emotional energy as we do. Should they not be allowed to benefit from a longer-lasting universe simply because humanity wouldn't? A species-wide declaration of "fuck y'all- I got mine"?
You sound like an anti-natalist. I'm not saying that to be dismissive; I am too, and while I also believe that forcing life onto the unwilling and non-consenting is unspeakably cruel, I'm not so arrogant as to believe that every sentient being should welcome death with open arms just because existence is often pain.
While I agree with much of this video, there is one aspect missing from this discussion: restraint.
If morality was just the whims of the powerful, then how do we explain people who restrain themselves? Many humans love meat and gain benefits from it, but there are vegetarians who will refuse to eat it. Lethal force is a powerful weapon, but there are pacifists who will refuse to take a life. These kinds have the opportunity to make themselves more powerful, but decide to turn it down regardless. It seems like there's more to this discussion than "might makes right".
I'm thinking back to your video about Psycho-Pass about how Akane represents the ideal point of law in part because she restrains herself even when she had the chance to kill Makashima in the tower. Makashima sough to remove restraints on his own free will and others from a position of power, but when it leads him to start killing innocent people, he undermines his own justice in the process. Without restraint, Makashima created a contradiction in that he sought to give others free will, but he would also take it on a whim, which implied that he valued his free will at the expense of and over others, so why shouldn't anyone do the same to him? That's in part what lead to his down fall by the hands of Kogami, a person acting out of the free will Makashima valued so highly. In contrast, Akane found the strength to act on her own ideals in part by restraining who she was and not willing to do, and is the one who ends up succeeding the most.
I'm not saying that restraints are inherently good or bad, context is the thing that will determine that. Rather, the problem is that without restraint, the "might makes right" defeats itself because it makes those who rule hoard power and become a slave to it, and those who are ruled envy the rulers and seek to become like them and seek power too, becoming slaves just like those they despised. Both parties end up slaves to power, not wielding it. But those who can use it and turn away as needed...well that's something else entirely.
So what I'm hearing is that Kyubei should have a vested interest in solving the climate crisis because it's a direct threat to its steady supply of magical girls.
Amazing video man it really made me think, but video aside; I just wanted to say I love your hair man.
This reminds of a Cracked After Hours video addressing fears in the movies and campfire stories we consume.
It concluded on how traditional monsters (werewolves, vampires etc.) represent the past sins (enslaving and conquering/colonizing entire civilizations, class inequality that forced people into debtors jail and children into the workforce) we enacted to make our society what it is now. Meanwhile, aliens are our punishment. They are the technology and often physically superior force that enslaves, conquers, or even destroys whatever they see fit w/no widespread remorse and us humans deserve every awful thing they’ll do!
No you don't need empathy to figure out how peoples frameworks work it just makes it a bit harder. If kyubey took the time to do this which it definitely had it would have realized that eventually sparked resistance by powerful poorly understood magical girls. If kyubey took the time to understand this it would recognize a critical flaw in the system and even without that critical flaw the superior system is still to engineer lifeforms that have no agency and no sapience and massively more emotion than a human.
10/10 video essay. I'll remember your closing monologue for a long time
Fantastic video essay, and I maintain that there are those who have seen Madoka and everyone else who is sorely missing out ^^;;
Kyubeys i think are representing a system that does not care and put efficiency over like having decent life quality. Because as we see last episode, they didnt need al that witches and despair they cause,
its just efficiency for them. Which is wrong of them, and needed to be corrected even flawed. That was not the only way to hlp humanity and use them, just the most inhumane and "efficient"
And i think if its commentary itts, who the hell agrees with just a system. That it shouldnt be less harmful.
They had a decent sstatus quo at the end of the series and just could not leave that be, and exploit more be more "efficient" making people suffer for profit.
And kyubey probably lies all the time with that is how its best, because thats what they want to sell.
Being inhuman does not excempt kyubeys from bias.
And they need humans, plus they seem to understand that fabricating consent will just raise the emoptional conflict and guilt.
Also recommand the webtoon kubera the last god. which has the good rtranslation on mangadex and , is a really good interesting drama not top mention th psychological, stuff and philosophical. Like th refreshing is we see what several characters think and come from with diffrent views and philosophies.
Really great, . Extremely great.
I've seen a few people mentioning the results of Madoka's wish disproving their methods, although I think that sits outside of our bounds since its essentially a universe which has been altered at a base level. However, they do state to Homura in one of the many timelines that the energy produced by Madoka becoming a witch was "more than enough," and so the destruction of the earth wouldn't matter. Looking at that, we could argue efficiency was top of their list when it didnt need to be, and so much like you pointed out, it disrespected humanity, much like the systems many of us live within
that rant at the end: 10/10
I'm always here to give a good rant haha
Ayo is that a Dracosack big card in the background? Sick!
Also great video, I watched Madoka magica when I was 14 and wasn’t able to understand any of the depth you went into here, but it did spawn an obsession in me to seek out other media that challenges what we consider the human condition.
Definitely going to have to go back and rewatch Madoka now
wow- I think this is the best take on kyubey relating to society I’ve ever heard!!
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about the concept of informed consent when making a contract. Incubators INTENTIONALLY target humans that are at their most emotionally vulnerable. Teenage girls going through puberty, one of the hardest times in their life, do NOT have informed consent. Even if you explain to them the details of the contract fully, teenagers literally do not have a fully formed brain and most cannot accurately assess the risk of a situation.
While this is a very big issue, my point here was more of an exploration of perspective and how that affected the situation in terms of humans vs another species
I’m guessing part of the reason for making the soul gems is it makes it easier to collect the energy. When using grief seeds to purify you have to be careful not to exceed their maximum capacity or the dormant witch within them will respawn. Put another way witches feed on negative emotional energy, the sort generated through fear of death, or anguish at the thought of losing the guy you like to your best friend, or despair at knowing your wish was always impossible and you’ve been wasting all your time and effort, and the grief seeds naturally absorb this negative energy. So when the grief seed is almost full it has collected a ton of energy, so when the incubators harvest it they’re getting a ready made package of energy.
The ending forced me to like and subscribe, holding true to your ideals love that.
There's no point to this all if I don't. If I was doing it *just* for money, might as well just keep working the job I hate right now, at least as I see it
So interesting, thank you for making the video!
Of course, thank you for the kind words!
"Because hope betrays the anger that is required for action" Ooooh, that is a GOOD line, Imma remember that one
I really loved this video, but I think the livestock comparison deserves further examination in the end goal of what Madoka does at the end of the series. The thing is that we don't really "prolong" or "improve" the lives of animals. We outright torture livestock and force them to live hellish existences in cages for the end goal of economic exploitation. In a way I think what Madoka's "wish" accomplishes at the end is the erasure of a benefit from prolonged suffering. By removing the option for human's becoming witches to be used as an energy source, she ultimately is preventing the exploitation of the girls in a form they can't even imagine. I think this interpretation has its holes, but the fact that this show invokes so much discussion is what makes it, to me, one of if not the best anime of all time.
man your videos are top tier
Came for the Madoka analysis, stayed for the twist of it being a societal analysis
Really interesting video, but one point I disagree with is the use of good and bad (or right and wrong) as if they were universal value shared by all of humanity, when it not the case. Although I do understand that it's probably for the sake of simplicity since "what's good" is whole other rabbit hole.
Also, another small point, at 23:10 I don't think Kyubey is lying.
You say that what he did was paramount to lying, but telling her "No, it's impossible." would be an outright lie as you usually can't prove impossibility. In that situation, Sakura doomed herself by asking the question the way she did, Kyubey gave her the truer answer it could : "It has never happened, I can't say it's impossible.".
Whereas when discussing with Homura he can say that it's impossible because it's not the subject of the discussion, and it's more of an opinion than a fact since it's not about the action itself but what Sakura should have known: basically that if the millennia old (at least) being who has created the system and is monitors it tells you that something never once happened, you should know that it basically amount to that action being impossible.
While I was reading to understand what you were mentioning, doesn't the fact that impossibility cannot be proved reach a No-go theorem?
Doesn't that conflict with Kyubey's position on many of the issues?
@@koroxo1152 I don't see which of its position would conflict with the fact that it's usually impossible to completely probe that something is impossible. Aside from the fact that the argument itself is kind of contradictory.
If you've examples I'm interested.
@@raitoiro According to what I was able to understand while reading, something impossible cannot be proven, but it can be argued against by no-go theorem cases, but these are impossible presentations because they would break current laws and knowledge of physics.
wouldn't you be making a deliverate omission by answering as possible something that, to be possible, should break several of the theories you consider facts?
@@koroxo1152 It depends, if Kyubey has said something like "Yeah, maybe you can do it." with no kind of warning, then yes it could be seen as a kind of lie. But here it made sure to say that as far as he knows it hasn't ever happened.
Plus Kyubey actually has reasons to think that it may be doable, for example if Sakura had managed to convince Madoka to become a Puela magika and to wish for Sayaka to be saved, it would likely have worked.
So while it was probably impossible for Sakura to save Sayaka the way she was going at it, it probably wasn't impossible overall.
I don't think the difference view pionts is relevant. The creature is making a deal without giving them the full facts. Therefore it's an unfair deal. An equal deal is discussed and agreed upon without cohersion.
You are missing two key facts.
First, while Kyubey feels no malice towards humans. It also feels nothing towards humanity whatsoever. So much so that it is perfectly content with wiping us all out to make witches. And indeed does so in multiple timelines.
Also defeating a witch doesn't kill them. The Grief seed that forms their core can always reform them. The only known way to kill a witch in series is for Kyubey to "dispose" of them. And given that we see a fully charged grief seed in episode 3 in a place conveniently close to Madoka. I am guessing that dispose means dumping them in a place that is convenient for Kyubey.
these videos are so good man
Thank you!
When they lie to the girls, they eventually discover the truth, more even, they often say the truth right away later, which makes the girls angry, a strong emotional reaction. I've always thought the only unethical thing Kyubei ever did was to lie, and I tend to think they did it because they deemed it necessary in order to beat the entropy. I've always thought this character to be very interesting because of that.
I swear you're saying Monika sometimes
i’m someone who’s had several near death experiences. when i was born, both my mother and i almost died. at 3 i should’ve lost my ability to walk and my surgery was more likely to kill me then save me. i’ve had several other experiences like these as well, but i’m still here. i’ve already dedicated myself to bettering life for others, and i know other people have had experiences like me as well. i think that what happened to the incubators is that they tried to understand our morals, and my guess is that they try to comprehend the morals of us as a species, and use our own morals to speak to us.
they have the power to put us into zoos and to treat us like we treat animals, but they don’t. they treat us better than we treat other species that have their own lives, families, higher thoughts, and ability to make individual decisions as slaves, and still to this day we even enslave our own people. they see we have a broken moral system as a whole, so they have no reason to treat them with any respect at all. if they weren’t intending on helping, they could just use all their ‘extra bodies’ to abduct some of ours and domesticate us, but they didn’t.
i do think understanding us would be a lot easier for us to understand them. they already understand that each body only has one consciousness. they’ve been around longer than any of us have, and comprehending a collective species as one consciousness is just like how our bodies are made up of individual cells, so that’s what i think they are. each body is a single cell of the organism. the lifespan of a creature that is all made up of one consciousness would make their entire planet one extension of them. cells die, but they’re always replaced. if every cell dies, nothing can replace them.
edit: i paused the video like right before you got to the point of saying basically everything i thought of, so yea! good video!
i can also say that you should’ve definitely played the patreon names cuz i feel like this is the most fitting video to have them lol. like, you said it yourself. ‘the only reason why you’re fed in this world is to keep producing content’ which we’re not able to escape yet, and by showing the names of people who pay you to make content is proof of this. it’s the way the system is set up, don’t feel shame in keeping yourself alive. cuz those people on patreon are living proof that they like keeping you that way! same with everyone who likes this video, subscribes, and leaves long comments like this ;)
This channel is my madoka magica fix always
Honestly the most fucked up individual "contract" was Mami's. Even if we ignore the fact that she's a minor like the Kyubey do, she was LITERALLY DYING!
C'mon, really? Really? How is that fair? Sure, she gets her life, but how is she supposed to understand what she's doing if she's making the contract as she's bleeding out? That one was just dirty, Kyubey!
Their argument of livestock to me was the most compelling. That and that they do not understand emotion the same way we do. Due to the latter, I think, they were not capable of comprehending the possibilities that their own system could create. That the inability to not understand emotion led them to not understand other aspects of the universe that they were not aware of. This blindness I think is shown in the movie where they are experimenting to try to observe a phenomenon they cannot actually observe.
I can't say whether or not they're being truthful in everything they say about understanding, but I think considering it is worthwhile to see where we get. There are probably some possibilities we don't understand either, and maybe this is part of how we begin to see them
Considering how we treat life forms below us, why shouldn't we expect the same from higher life forms. Also this got really dark, but I absolutely agree with you
"the Souls of Little girls will not prevent the Demise of the universe. To think otherwise is truly foolish" - Hex Caster.