What Happens If you Add Solar To A Tesla? Infinite Range?
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
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Notes:
World Solar Challenge
👉worldsolarchallenge.org/
Sono Files for Insolvency (German for Bankruptcy)
👉www.eenewseurope.com/en/solar...
Light Year Recovering from Bankruptcy
👉insideevs.com/news/661215/lig....
Engineering Mindset - How do Solar Panels work
👉 • Generate Electricity -...
Other Notes and responses to Frequent comments
1. Aptera seems to be the closest to a production ready car. They are still looking for investors and have one prototype car. The claim is up to 40 miles per day in ideal conditions from solar power. It is a two seater and that is enough distance for most daily drivers.
Read more here.
👉aptera.us/
2. Several people seem to think we don't have this because its not profitable without selling the electricity as well. This feels more like conspiracy thinking rather than considering the real problem. Gasoline cars are sold and no car company expects to make money from the gasoline purchased later. So are thousands of other products like washing machines etc. Solar panels are sold at a profit for homes. AND, nearly every government actually gives you money back if you buy them in tax rebates. You can buy a solar panel at Walmart which is more evidence of just how much profit there is in just selling it once. All indications are that solar has value to sellers, to government and the consumer. A truly solar powered car could be sold for more than a regular car. There is no evidence someone would not make a car that they can sell at a profit, because they can't also sell you the electricity. That seems like a poor assumption. There is a strange pleasure in thinking you are aware of a conspiracy... like someone has something to keep from you and you caught them. But this claim doesn't match what we actually see in the market place, and business behavior.
Technical corrections
Nothing yet 
Хобби
I am aware of companies like Aptera. They seem very promising indeed. I hope they are successful. Because there have been so many starts and stops, and the car looks pretty radical... I decided not to call out too many names directly in the video. I want my video to be evergreen :)
Was going to comment this 👍
I've been watching Aptera for years now. Waiting patiently for their car, however, Jeremy has a point. It will take a very specific person to purchase a 2-seater that looks like an airplane on stilts. Consumers may say they want that, but let's see what happens when they produce it.
Please do a follow-up video on the Aptera solar powered car going into production next year
Child labor and the fact it is more harmful for the environment to produce and end life recycle (scrap yard) of EV's will be their downfall. Nothing but a fad until the real truth comes out about EV's instead of the narrative being produced by the globalist agenda. The sun drives climate change period!
Aptera isn't real yet. They are stuck at the phase where they have a prototype and found out real world use just needs more solar than the car can collect.
"We need to make it uglier" pulls out a Cybertruck. I love it.
I’m one of the 10s of thousands of students who designed and built cars for the World Solar Challenge over the past few decades. It’s a great experience. If you end up at one of the participating universities, I highly recommend joining their team.
Great videos, Jeremy.
@JamesWalters. Do you agree with me that say 900w worth of laminated solar cells on a car hood, roof, rear & body like a 1st generation Honda Insight. That's very lightweight & extremely aerodynamic could extend it's EV range a decent worthwhile amount on sunny days and be worth doing??? Since solar cells aren't that expensive.
Another example I think where solar could have a huge a benefit is. A mid drive 750w velomobile. That has some laminated solar cells on the lightweight carbon fiber body. To power vent fans, led lights, charge phone or mini touchscreen,etc... Then keep some lightweight foldup solar 📂 panels. Stored under or behind the drivers seat. So when parked, you can unfold them, place over the velomobile, strap em down, to shade it & keep it cool while it's charging the battery bank. Or park velomobile in shade & use a long cord to place portable foldup panels in sunlight. A 750w mid drive pedal assist could easily cruise along at 40mph without the rider having to pedal hard & get worn out.
The same electric velomobile concept could be made stronger & faster to safely cruise at 55-65mph and only need around a 1500w to 2000w of mid drive power. Using very little electric charged off wall 🔌 plug-in and solar panels.
Of course not everyone wants an electric assist pedal velomobile but a similar 55mph 75mph lightweight aerodynamic personal transport vehicles could be made. Using similar non pedal concept with enough storage room for groceries. To make practical, comfortable, aerodynamic. Affordable efficient/low power use, electric commuter vehicles. Instead of 14kw electricity guzzling Cybertrucks.
There’s a lot to unpack here.
It’s much less expensive and much more convenient to simply plug the velomobile/e-bike into a wall outlet as opposed to purchasing solar panels and hauling them around. Solar panels are expensive and bulky. To store them in or mount them on a vehicle you need to increase vehicle size. Larger vehicles require more energy which requires more solar panels which requires a larger vehicle…
If you make a cheap, convenient, efficient, practical solar conveyance, the world will beat a path to your door. Since nobody has an affordable solution, I ride my bicycle when I’m able and drive my gas-guzzling minivan when I’m not. I hate using gas. A model X would meet my needs but those cost 3X more than the minivan and it would require a large, expensive, solar array to power it with solar. That’s how this equation works for most people. Yes, you can go completely solar with enough time, expense, and effort. I could design a bespoke vehicle that meets my needs and is powered by onboard solar but it would be prohibitively expense to build and far too inconvenient to use. Sometimes people need to drive in the winter when there isn’t much sunlight for days. You would need a Model X to haul the solar panels needed to charge/power the velomobile and you would need a semi tractor to haul the solar panels needed to charge/power the Model X.
You're not going to find enough space to fit 900 watt of solar panels on your car.
You might get 400watt, and that is only 400 watt worth full sun clear sky and the sun right above.
As he pointed out, typical panels are about 15 to 20% efficient. The sun delivers about 1000 to 1200 watt each square meter depending on where you are on the earth (texas and Africa is many times better than up North) 15% of 1000 watt is 150 watt..
And flexible and thin panels typically is even worse than 15%
And you also need an MPPT regulator to get any efficiency from the panels, if you connect directly to the battery you will get much less again so you might end up about 5 to 10% efficiency or even less
Aptera entered the chat..
@@joeabad5908 I love the slick engineering that went into the Aptera. But sadly think it's ugly AF . I understand why it looks the way it does. So it can be super aerodynamic, also strong & lightweight but would give up some aerodynamics for better looks & increased room.......What would be cool on the Aptera is if they made roll up /pull down thin solar panels that covered all the windows for #1 more charging power #2 100% privacy when parked #3 keeps sunlight & heat out during the Sumner.
The real, underlying problem is that we only receive ~1000 Watts per square meter on a clear sunny day. In a best case, you have 2 square meters on a car, you can get 2 kWhr every hour, so maybe 16 kWhr per day. That would get you maybe 4 to 10 miles in a Tesla model S.
There just isn't enough available energy in the footprint of a car.
Solid works is a great program, but it's just not truly accessible for hobbyists. Just tok expensive.
Agreed, and that 1000 W/sq m is at 100% efficiency, which as Jeremy pointed out, is really only ~20%. So now we’re talking 200W x 2 = 400W for the whole car. A Tesla model 3 uses 0.24 kWh per mile travelled. Say the car is travelling at 60 mph. So over an hour, we cover 60 miles x 0.24 = 14.4 kWh, or a constant load of 14.4 kW. So our solar panel is producing 400W and our car needs 14,400W, which is only 2.8%. Those solar cars in Australia are really more like aerodynamic bicycles, they are built so lightly.
@@gregholloway2656this sort of thing might offer some usability for people, who drive only around town (european towns) and leave the car parked outside.
@@gregholloway2656 👍👍👍 FYI drag coefficients: solar competition cars 0.9 vs. Tesla (new model 3) 0.22 while Aptera autocycle (3-wheel, 2 passenger car) 0.13… likely intro early to mid 2025.
Your estimates on range are low it's 30 to 50 miles. Which is nothing for distance driving but good for daily driving, but if your going to be coming home without and empty tank just leave the panels at home and charge of that battery that you don't need to carry around.
Some companies partially fix this issue by building an even more efficient car than a Tesla model. Mostly by giving up on the classic car shape and optimizing for coefficient of drag.
When my wife says "i'm not mad... it's all good" in that cheerful tone while smiling, I know I'm in big trouble. Top video Jeremy, thank you.
The secret is to take everything they say in the opposite manner. _"of course I'm not with u for the money"_ 🤘🤣🔥
That true 😂 @@daviedood2503
The best idea I have heard so far for solar charging of vehicles is adding solar panel shades to parking lots. The installation is easy since it is in the open, the cars are parked there already, and the solar panels act as shade to keep your car cool. A large proportion of people are just parking at work for 8 hours and not driving more than 60 miles/day anyways, so while extended range would be nice to have, it is much easier to keep the solar off the car.
A previous employer had these installed and it was fantastic. My car was protected from the summer heat and heavy winter snowfall. All the while, an otherwise 'static' roof was providing power. I think with some adaptation (height, structure) these could be used a lot more across parking lots.
@@OddJobEntertainmentwe should be able to use them vertically. Skyscrapers don´t need as many windows.
@@Morpheus-pt3wq Solar on the sides of skyscrapers is definitely an option. Even though there's less irradiation you have more surface area. Just make sure they won't be shadowed by a building next door.
@@Morpheus-pt3wq I would like adjustable shutters over some of those south-facing windows anyhow-- why not with solar panels?
@@OddJobEntertainmentYa, I'd love a cheap affordable, aerodynamic, efficient 2 seater, with grocery storage room commuter EV that could be recharged off a 4K to 5,000w solar system on the garage or carport roof over it. Instead of a giant non aerodynamic electricity guzzling e vehicle. That needs 14,000 watts just to even slow charge. At least with a small EV that only needs 4 to 5000w you could recharge off a gas generator. In a major power outage from bad storm. 🆚 a 7500w generator taking 18hrs to slow charge your cybertruck.
I did this calc a while ago for a person who said why not solar panels on cars. I figured you could put around 700w of panels and that would give you about 6 miles of range a day in Texas. Solar panels are cheap enough for it to be viable cost saver over the long term but it is too small to be called a range extender.
This was exactly my thought. The real benefit would be measured over a year, not how much you could get per day. In places with ample sun you might add an extra 1000 miles a year. Which isn't bad.
Such a clean and elegant explanation! Thanks Jeremy, and thanks for the honest shoutout. Very glad to help your audience with their SolidWorks journey🎉
Thank you for bringing a holistic view into engineering and economics and usability into this conversation! Absolutely loved this video.
Aptera addresses all of these concerns with an actual functional car that's way lighter, still has space inside, and is cheaper than current EVs that get the same range. I wish more people knew about them. I'd love for Jeremy to make a video on them, as I know he's aware of them.
I want to wait until they have a chance to sell to the public. Right now this vehicle can’t be purchased anywhere. After a year or two on the market with real people testing and reviewing it I would love to talk about how it performed on the road, how sales went, what they learned and what changed if anything.
@@JeremyFieldingSrI wholly agree. I despise, "new tech" videos that never materialize said tech. it's non actionable noise.
Aptera will be around $30k, maybe. And thats for the lower range cars, so not much different to a model 3 for example that seats 4 people not 2, and thats before Chinese have models at 1/2 the price.
I went to the car configuratior, in the 250 miles option you pay 9000 more for the model 3 over the aptera, in the 400 miles range the tesla S is 35000 more expensive, and if you want a comparable car to the 600 miles option, tesla can not offer you something even if you pay all your money. And the Chinese, yes they are a lot cheaper for the same quality, but will you be able to buy their cheap cars? I can tell it for Europe, the cheap Chinese cars that arrive in our ports get magically almost double in pricing, might be the same in the US.
@@Joe-lb8qnyeah but they will prolly be half as efficient too
Thanks for the great presentation! , discovering more efficient processes will probably be the key .
Very good, detailed, and clean explanation and informing everyone some big misconceptions of solar panel.
More so you can look at Teslas, BYDs, or hypercars and the maximum the solar panels increase mileage is about maybe twenty miles.
Your videos are super quality, we appreciate you!
As always, another well thought out explanation with engineering and economic principles included. Keep making great videos Jeremy!
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
You have such a vast amount of knowledge and have made so much of us more informed. It is amazing the ideas you give us. Just keep up the great videos.
Your story about the burgers reminds me of similar stories around beer: consumers complain that their favourite product stopped being made, but it turns out that they only drank it a hand full of times a year because it was a "special occasion" drink. Whilst in the mean times they were drinking way larger volumes of relatively "boring" beer. There's a reason lager is the most popular, profitable, and high volume, beer style. I know of commercial breweries that brew their boring beer on the big kit doing hundreds of gallons, and all their other beers on top end home brew size equipment, as they sell so little of it.
People want the option of variety, but realistically the majority of volume is the basic standard option.
You also have to be careful about introducing a product into the line up that takes away from your other products sales, rather than taking sales from other companies. That's a classic way to increase complexity and running costs without increasing sales and or profit.
A friend did that competition in high school! He was so proud. Jeremy-you always bring the best!
You are such a good teacher. Thank you.
You have a gift for explaining engineering concepts to the layman. Keep it up. The explanation why perpetual motion machines is spot on!
Jeremy, it’s always a pleasure to watch your videos. And this one is no exception. Great job…and I want to see a car cover with solar panels that I can fold or roll up and store in my trunk.
BTW, I really appreciate how you explain things simply. Especially the power losses in any system via the 'leaky' water cups. Good job!
Sir, you have a nice calming voice for youtube videos. I wish you more success in this
I always wanted to do a small golf cart sized car for running errands with. a couple of seats, a small bed in the back, a flat roof for the panels, keep the rain out. a 20 mile range total. leave it parked somewhere a bit sunny. this would suffice for running errands
I think the channel is "creative channel" made a buggy style vehicle like your describing. He used a couple ebike motors and had a couple panels for a roof. And then had lithium battery under the seat. Looked nifty
Great video thanks for the explanation
Believing in free energy is believing a river can power a water wheel that makes the entire river flow upstream
Love this analogy
@@racerex340Heres' the fun part: Its not an analogy! If you believe in free energy devices you actually should believe this is possible as well. I think people believe in free energy electrical devices because they don't understand electricity and thermodynamics, but this example is more intuitive.
@@vennicnothing is free.
Free energy is operating all around you every day. Trees grow from free energy.
@@us3rGTry holding your breath.
Wonderful video Jeremy! Speaking in layman's terms and your happy face and voice works 100%
50% of my charge goes to powering sentry mode on my Tesla when it's parked. I would be happy with enough solar to break even
Rock on, Jeremy!
Bless you Sir, you have a gift for using plain language to illustrate concepts that appear sophisticated in a way that makes them plain to the meanest understanding.
Professionally done, like Aptera, it is a good idea. As an add-on, it would have to be following the contour of the car roof, if a rectangular raised panel, the extra air resistance would cost more than the benefit of electricity produced.
Hey dude, I love your videos, should do more!
Saw the topic thought - not this again. Then saw it's JeremyFeildingSr and clicked anyway. Appreciate you sir.
You are a sweet talk and incredibly genius.
I wonder if you ever pantent any invention?
I've been following a solar panel company that bonds a flexible panel to a flexible membrane and if they get damaged still work. So, if it could be adapted to something like a vinyl wrap, a sheet of panel that could actually cover the fully Is very intriguing to me.
My Toyota Prius has solar panels on the roof. Unfortunately, they can't charge the car battery, but they have another benefit: When the car is parked in the sun, they provide electricity to constantly run the fan of the car's AC. That way, the car never gets too hot. But you could easily add other functionality, like keeping the 12V battery charged to prevent problems, powering a little fridge etc. Also, if you don't use your car every day and have a place to keep it in the sun, it could be possible to generate enough electricity for almost all driving.
Thanks for the break-down. Maybe between the regenerative breaking and the possibility of future materials science and better photovoltaics it might be an engineering problem , but by then fusion might be only five years away. 😊
One of the things you can do to calculate whether or not the solar panels you are buying will come close to reaching the "claimed" power output is to calculate their area. You can usually assume 15% to 20% efficiency or less unless you know the panel has higher efficiencies because that is the current standard. Don't believe higher claims unless they are proven to you.
You can then sort of backwards calculate from known real world percentages: For example: Assume 1000 watts of sunlight hits a 1 square meter panel and the panel at optimum conditions has 20% efficiency. That means best case scenario for a 1 square meter panel is 200 watts. I always check the area of the panel before I buy into the claims. That means that at 500mm x 500mm panel will only have 1/4 of 200 watts... and you will find many panels for sale claiming much higher watts than possible for their area.
Thanks for the video!
I have a manual transmission year 2000 Honda insight
Hybrid that gets 62 mpg still . It came to the US before the Prius and was available with full creature comforts .
It is all aluminum and people are upgrading the electronics and battery bank to be better than it was to be a plug in hybrid now .
If you want to experiment it is the perfect car built 2000-2006 only .
Later Insights were steel , larger and 4 seaters not two
Another thing to consider is opportunity cost. Say you could cover a car with solar panels for $10k. It would make more sense to install $10k of stationary solar where you could optimize the position of the panels (or even sun track).
Absolutely
Stimulating and educational... as always.
Another great video!
This was an excellent and engaging piece that beautifully demonstrated the fundamental concepts involved and the basic truth that Robert Heinlein distilled with the acronym “TANSTAAFL,” or “there ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.”
I think that was Heinlein in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
@@evanbarnes9984 Just checked it out and I believe that you’re correct, as far as it’s use in Sci-Fi goes, in that Heinlein was the first to coin the acronym.
A complete surprise to me is that it actually seems to have originated from an article titled “Economics in eight words,” written in 1938 by Walter Morrow, editor-in-chief of the Southwestern Group of newspapers.
It’s thought that Heinlein might well have read the article, which used the long form of the phrase, and come up with the acronym.
Credit where credit’s due though, you definitely know where your towel is.
I stand corrected and will edit my post.
😎🤝🍻
If an EV has adequate regen braking then weight isn't a dominant factor in efficiency, because the velocity of the vehicle is effectively an energy storage medium in the form of kinetic energy. Aero and "hotel loads" like heating and cooling systems are the dominant factors.
We can make aerodynamic vehicles. but manufacturers are convinced that customers wont buy them. But it's a bit like the energizer 18Ah phone battery: They go to an extreme and then say "see! no one wanted it!", when going from 3.5Ah to 6Ah is actually what people want.
No it is not. Kinetic energy is constantly being lost due to drag and rolling resistance. You only have to take your foot off the gas to see how much energy is being lost every second as the car quickly slows down. You don’t notice because you’re constantly supplying new energy. It’s way more efficient to lighten the car even if regenerative braking was 100% efficient. Of course it is not which makes this worse
@@JeremyFieldingSr "drag and rolling resistance": Aerodynamic drag vastly outweighs rolling resistance on average in combined drive cycle for the average car. Like >3:1 ratio.
Weight doesn't factor into aerodynamic drag.
You slow down approximately exponentially as the aero drag increases with the square of the velocity whilst rolling resistance is linear.
Rolling resistance is only greater than aero at low speeds, or in incredibly aerodynamic vehicles. And at those speeds the HVAC consumption is likely the largest chunk of the vehicles energy consumption.
This isn't the opinion of some armchair rando on the internet. I'm an energy efficiency research engineer working for a major car OEM. It's my job to know where to invest our resource for maximum return.
Modern cars are way too heavy and that is a problem. They're also way too big which hurts aero due to the A in CdA.
Ultimately an electric bicycle is about as efficient as transport gets: Minimum features, weight, and frontal area.
We might be drifting away from the real core of my argument with this line of reasoning. Regenerative braking can only collect the kinetic energy that is left. This is the part I am saying won't ever be "adequate." Reducing the mass also reducing the kinetic energy stored in the car, in addition to drag and rolling resistance. I am not saying you are wrong about improving aerodynamics I think that is a given. I mention this in the video.
@@JeremyFieldingSr I generally agree with your overall sentiment that solar panels on a car are hard to justify due to the relatively small power collection and large consumption. But not impossible as evidenced by the solar challenge cars and Aptera. I'd go further and suggest people put them on their house roof before they put them on their car.
It's just your claim that weight is the biggest factor for the viability of a solar powered car. It just isn't. Aero and heating/cooling consume more power, and are more easily reduced. I'm not saying weight doesn't matter because it definitely does and the SUV trend is doing terrible things for pedestrian safety and the environment. I'm saying that rolling resistance isn't close to the primary concern you suggest it is. It's about tied third on my list, along with EV powertrain efficiency.
Here's some vague estimates from experience on where the energy is consumed in a car:
In cold or hot weather, roughly a third goes to the AC or heating. Roughly one fifth from aerodynamic drag. Less than a tenth from rolling resistance (mass drag). We can easily half the first two. That would save more power than rolling resistance consumes in total.
When it's a comfortable temperature outside that changes things making the biggest consumer aero drag at around a quarter of total energy consumption, the AC and heating reduce to about a sixth of the energy consumption, similar to rolling resistance also at a sixth. Similarly in this instance we can half aero drag on the average car more easily than halving the weight and achieve similar savings to eliminating rolling resistance.
We can easily improve both aero and heating/cooling efficiency by more than it's hypothetically plausibly to reduce rolling resistance by. That's for the combined drive cycle.
Reducing weight isn't a bad inaccurate message to deliver, to be fair. At least it's on the list. Sadly the way we do that is to buy a smaller car, or bicycle, which people seem to be averse too. To be fair, cycling infrastructure is generally poor in many places outside of the netherlands.
@@Leo99929 I think we are mostly on the same page. Aerodynamics is extremely important. And I don't think its impossible for the same reason. We have the solar power challenge. I certainly didn't say it was impossible in the video. I think this will happen one day mostly because there is so much interest in it. Most problems can be solved with enough money invested. I think this is one of those problems. A very expensive one to solve.
6:40 With solar its not only about light on the surface but the wave length of that light, depending on the material used in the panel is what part of the wave length it interacts with the most. Tyically light from a standard light bulb be it incondesant or LED will be missing large parts of the UV and IR elements.
thank you a lot god that i exist in the era you are in bro , , ,
It puzzles me that something like this needs explaining to anyone other than elementary school childrens.
It also puzzles me why people can't comprehend that solar panels/cells are cheap. So a lightweight aerodynamic efficient commuter car with a combination of regen braking & laminated solar cells covering much of the car could easily get an extra 10 to 15 miles in the sun & woukd only cost a couple thousand dollars more to add/build.
But obviously on a big, brick shaped electricity guzzling EV that needs 10kw just to 8hr slow charge. Those 800w or 1000w of solar cells, is only going to give it like 3 to 5% extra power in full sun. But solar cells aren't that expensive. 100w panels are under $100. So it'd only add a couple thousand more to a $50,000 car.
On certain vehicles solar is worth doing to extend range. On others it's not.
I think we're focusing on the wrong things when expecting solar panels on a car. The point isn't to be able to drive infinitely, but extend the range and life of the battery using any energy those solar panels can give. The car isn't just a motor with a driveshaft, it has loads of accessories, like heating, fans, lights, dashboard instruments, AC pump, etc all of which run on 12V. If you could make those running free 60% of the time, then you leave your main battery power to focus solely on the driving, not just extending the range but the life of it as well.
I still think it's a solid concept, it's just people's expectations that are the problem.
I said this in the video. What if it extended the range… is it worth it? No one said it had zero value. We have to consider the cost added vs the benefits and can you get millions of people to vote with their money. That’s what the video is about. It more complicated than you presume. it’s easy to get thousands of people to say yes of course it’s worth it you save a few dollars right… but when they get to the car lot they still vote for something else. You think you want a chicken sandwich but when you see the real price and actual benefits you might vote for something else. I don’t know what you would do but you need millions to do it not just you. I don’t think it’s impossible to make this product successful, I just think it’s hard and that’s why I am interested.
@@JeremyFieldingSrYes, I watched it all it wasn't a criticism. I think you did touch on that subject a little, but did not go into details over what it would mean just to power accessories rather than the motor itself. Perhaps an idea for a different video?
I think it will boil down to how efficient the consumption of those accessories are (lights, wipers, AC, heaters, fans, etc) and the potential of powering them vs the cost of adding the solar panels on the roof and hood of the car (maybe the windows). Think city driving where you stand still a lot, but those accessories still need to run. A day of sunlight might get you free energy for all of that but of course this needs breaking down and looking into.
All you would need is a separate cluster of 12V batteries with the solar panels dumping energy into them, and feed the accessories from there. Then switch to main battery when it's empty or low. It's possible they break the costs even now but maybe in the future when solar panels are cheaper that they will be an addition.
By the way, congrats for making the Cybertruck actually look decent. Never thought adding that pattern of solar panels would make me actually like it.
Fun survey anecdote: the city I grew up in sent out surveys to residents asking about public transportation and how often they would use buses if routes were expanded. They got overwhelmingly positive responses back and the city commissioners voted to massively expand the bus service. Cut to 5 years later and the buses were being utilized at under 5% of total capacity.
What nobody considered was the survey response RATE. People who didn't give a flip about bus service just chucked the surveys in the trash, only the small percentage of people who wanted more bus service responded leading to a massively positive skewed result.
25 years later and the bus service still can't even break even, over 50% of the operating budget has to be filled from taxes to make up for the lack of revenue from bus fares.
But in general the public transportation shouldn't have to break even, right? It's like roads, we don't expect them to break even, or traffic lights.. Cost a million to build but will never make a dime.
@@mvadu Yes, public projects need to consider the value to society and not just direct monetary benefits. Public transportation can enable more people to spend more time (and money) in the city, and even personal car users benefit from reduced road congestion. This can have a monetary benefit to the city even though it's not attributed to the transit.
😂 Must be ran by democrats who didn't factor that into the survey results. But at least the poor & disabled people who needed public transport got it thanks to their leaders ineptitude 😂
Love your content! I like to analyze these things with just best case dimensional analysis. Imagine solar cells were 100% efficient, weighed nothing and always received a full irradiance of 1kW/m2. And assume every square meter of the top of a car could be converted into solar panels, say 8m2. And assume electric motor consumption of 0.2kWh/km, then your average speed can be roughly 8Kw/0.2kwh/km or 40km/h or 25 mph. So under what might generously be considered 'incredibly ideal circumstances' requiring currently unknown breakthroughs in materials science, cost reduction and energy conversion then maybe, some day in the far far future this might be useful for a school bus.
Thank You Jeremy for supporting Solar Power and for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste 🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮ ❤
peter sripol made a solar powered bike video with a little train of solar cells and i've wanted to build one ever since. it's like a solar car but pretty much anyone can put the hardware on the edges of a standard solar panel frame and make a little train
Infinite range IS possible. All that's required is infinite time and infinite money.
All I can think of is Wheel Of Fish from UHF “nothiiing! you get nothiiing! so stupid!” 🤣
at the beginning of the 2000s there were ideas of electric cars with solar panels on them but the range, as i recall was small. The idea is nice but i would use it only as a recharger way so that if you;re on the road with no filling plant in range you could activate the solar panel charging function or you could separate the battery in sections so that when a sections is emptied you continue using the full section as the empty one is charged from the panels. That's my cent on the idea
With the right resources you could be as good or better than Mark Rober. I tell everyone about your channel. Very well done.
9:18 - non-concentrator record is 39.5% efficiency, and yes, you SHOULD use whole surface of your auto for panel, either torpedo, transparent panels on windows glasses and additional shields on doors and front window glasses (behind windows) for "standing-without passengers" period
Railroads have been using dynamic (regenerative) braking for decades. Helps keep a train at the needed speed on downgrades, without the problem of overheated brakes and, possible failure, leading to a runaway.
I think PV panels would be more useful on hybrids than EVs. The motors have planned downtime built in and a solar panel on the roof would take some load off the generation.
I was listening to a startup investor. He rambled on about Product Market Fit. If consumers don't want to buy your product then your company will fail. Then he started going off on how he can force the consumer to buy electric cars. It's like really?
He's one of the founders at Y Combinator.
I recently saw a video about bifacial solar panels installed vertically. Do you think its possible to set up a sail like vertical panel during parking to get trickle amount of power just enough if you drive about 10 miles commute.
🙏🏾All Factz !!! 🎓
since regenerative breaking works because spinning a generator causes resistance and thus slows the speed of the wheels then having an alternator always feeding into the batteries would be like driving with the breaks pressed.
Considering all the struggles you mentioned, I would guess that it's more cost efficient in most instances (unless you really need to charge off-road) to just have static solar panels on or off the grid and charge a car when you need to.
Thanks for the discussion of trade offs.
Curious what kind of solution you might reach if the problem was framed as providing transportation using renewable energy sources.
Would it make sense to charge batteries for a vehicle instead of charging on the move? Could we switch to bikes, scooters, golf cart like four wheel vehicles with pedal assist or electric motors? Or trains and bus lines?
I agree with your point that most people just want their giant do-everything car plus solar.
So, is there value in asking these people if they want to be able to get to places or if they want to specifically drive cars?
It comes down to convenience and competition I think. We need people to literally “buy in” Public transport works well when done well. But it takes A big commitment to get it to work well. The better the public transit system the more people will use it. All the infrastructure of public transport gives you many more options to offset energy needs with stationary solar panels… but even charging stations that switch batteries or charge them from stationary solar panels makes more sense than on the car when the “infrastructure” has to be carried as part of the load. These are indeed good questions you bring up. Some of the problem I am trying to address is the public misconception about how “easy” this is and how important their real choices are.
Hi Jeremy, great explainer but i with you would have talked about some consumer viable solutions for solar powered electric cars like the Aptera car.
It would have been a great addition to the context about saving electricity demand by making more efficient and lightweight body cars
I did talk about exactly this without mentioning their name. There is a whole section about reducing weight. But this car can’t be purchased on a car lot yet. So it’s exciting but given that two companies have failed trying to do this I want to wait until they prove they can sell this car to real consumers. We all like the idea, but as I said in the video when you put this next to a “juicy hamburger” as I said in the video, people might not vote with their money. The car looks pretty radical and that might also run people away. I think this will happen, but I don’t want to just rid the hype. I as an engineer I know selling the product makes it real not a prototype. I have made many of those. We need millions to buy this car. Maybe they will. We shall see
@@JeremyFieldingSr my apologies, I am also just now seeing your pinned comment. I understand your reasoning, thanks for the reply and for the time you spend to make educational content for us. It's great for kids and adults alike
Solarroof plus battery at home can charge your car, your home battery, your heatpump and store grid energy at cheap hours for later consumption.
Whats more does people want.
Great video. I think the US electric grid is down to about 20% coal and 30% plus for natural gas. Some improvement, a long way from green.
Even tho using solar panels to increasing range is an VERY optimistic idea that is not really practical, like older a nissan Leaf there is a 30/40 cm2 solar panel on the back but that is more too keep the battery from going flat while parked.
I have wanted for years to have one to either maintenance charge the 12v battery and to drive the interior fan for keeping it from beeing too hot or damp in the car, or just comfort, not efficiency
One caveat on the "can't put a generator on a car and get more power out than it increases the drive power by": Aerofoils.
You can have 20 N of lift for every 1 N of drag. Put that on a spindle and you have a propeller, connect that shaft to a generator and you have a wind turbine that can have 20N of rotation for every 1N of drag it adds to the vehicle... Caveat about the support structure and inefficiency of gear boxes and generators.
Put it on the front of the vehicle and the low pressure zone behind it presents potentially less drag on the vehicle body.
Aerofoils are optimised for a certain wind speed so the systems to get them to work efficiently over a car operating range is a challenge that variable pitch can help combat.
It also has the potential to generate power when the vehicle is stationary.
The concept isn't completely ridiculous. There are ships and cars that do something along these lines: basically use a wind turbine instead of a sail so they can go in any direction they want under wind power alone. Often faster than the wind that is powering it.
Another thing people don't realize is how much power is required to move a road legal electric car. Toyota put solar panels on their top of the line prius 15 years ago. It provided enough power to turn on an interior ventilation fan during hot summer days. That's it.
That's basically the only reason we don't see solar powered cars everywhere.
I think this would work for Tesla trucks. Mounting the panels on the trailer. When the trailer is on the road its charging the truck and when its in a loading/unloading bay it plugs into the building.
I’m having partial memory of a car that did have solar panels on the roof ….Prius? …and it optimally would turn on a fan or something to keep the interior cooler in the summer or something like that 🙃
You aren't wrong. One of the Prii a few years back had an option for solar to help keep the interior cool. I don't think it was a popular option.
Aptera has 700 watts of solaron an ultra efficient, 100 wH/mile that in theory can get up to 40 miles/ day of charge. On the Tesla Model 3 LR, that uses 300 wH/mile, that 700 watts would give you up to 13.3 miles/day.
In a sunny place like San Diego, CA the Aptera could potentially average ~30 miles/day over the year. The Model 3 LR could average ~10 miles/day over the year on the same 700 watts of solar.
Have you heard of solar paint? I heard something about it years ago, but not followed it. I think the biggest problem is the battery. We simply don't have an efficient enough design, nor materials to do what we want them to do. Second problem is as you said, people don't want to spend more money for less comforts. I know my biggest problem with current EVs is range while loaded. But I'm a Canadian truck driver. Half of my year, current lithium batteries are half as efficient and/or just don't work. I've been looking at Edison Motors lately. Will see how it works out.
I am kinda bummed that you never addressed the fact that it is currently impossible to charge an EV battery while in motion because the manufacturers wont let us add energy to the batteries while driving. We can't just strap on a generator trailer for example because the car must be parked to accept charge
There are safety reasons for not doing this. Including driving around with a running gasoline motor in a trunk not designed for that. It’s a fire hazard, a hazard to the battery and thus a serious hazard to the occupants
@@JeremyFieldingSr A gas engine in the trunk is certainly a bad idea but a dedicated trailer should be safe if purposefully designed. There are already commercially-available self-contained generator trailers (often used to power large outdoor events like concerts or fairs). While they probably aren't made for operation when in motion I'm sure the manufacturer could make the necessary changes.
To the OP, you absolutely _can_ charge an EV when in motion (such as with regen), just not with the plug-in charger. This safety check can probably be disabled or you could also hook up a separate charger up to pack voltage. Obviously this can be very dangerous if not done properly.
What about wind surely you channel air over wind turbines then on to capacitors to charge batteries
You can fix some the surface area by covering the windshield. Just add a front facing camera. That is a whole nother panel..
People always ask me if my e-bike charges the battery when I pedal. When I point out to them that providing enough muscle to charge the battery would require me to pedal with enough force to not only keep the bike at speed, but also provide additional effort to charge the battery. Pedaling just increases range.
And on mine, there's no regenerative brakes.
Me being me, I wonder if replacing the chain to the wheel with an optimized pedal powered generator, decoupling the drive from pedaling, could increase range by allowing me to charge at my own optimized pedal cadence. But you'll be hard pressed to beat the simplicity and efficiency of the original chain drive:)
For your creative idea, you're probably better off adding regen. Assuming the chain drive has plenty of gear ratios you can already pedal at an optimal cadence. It probably sounds weird but you could (lightly) apply the brake while pedaling. The chain drive would efficiently transmit all your pedaling effort to the wheel and only the extra energy would go through the generator.
Supposedly a very fit person can only pedal/produce about 250w of power on a generator.. But I would think some type of planetary geared pedal generator could put out more? Just like the blade shapes, sizes, number of blades & planetary gearing systems on large wind turbines are able to make alot more power.
It would interesting to see if a combination of wall charging & pedal assist. Could beat the same amount of wall charging power combined with planetary geared pedal generator.
@@michaelbrinks8089 The type of gearbox doesn't matter. The change in wind turbine power is solely from adjusting the parameters of the blades.
@@eDoc2020 Respectively disagree, I know the large turbines have gearing inside them. Either planetary or similar. So the generator is spinning faster than the blades. Instead of a 1 to 1 drive ratio. But smaller home wind turbines don't have internal gearing. Some larger, more expensive 10,000+ watt turbines probably do though.
@@michaelbrinks8089 My point was any other type of gearbox would work equally well.
Nice video, I wish you had compared the average power draw of an electric vehicle VS what a reasonnably-sized solar panel can produce.
I might be wrong, but my assumption is that a very efficient solar panel in ideal conditions would only produce a few percents of what it takes for an EV to go 50 MPH. The idea would likely be viable if it could increase fuel economy by 20% in sunny places, but I highly doubt it'd amount to more than 1%...
There is a great video going through the math by a channel called "engineering explained." You can check it out here. ruclips.net/video/7L1_zvqg73Q/видео.htmlsi=QgjQq5mx8RbojGo5 ...I decided not to cover that part as I just wanted people to "feel" the problem not so much measure it. I was really trying to say "its complicated for a LOT of reasons and the consumer is a large part of the reason" in a way that a non-engineer could understand.
Let me see if I can simplify this to the extreme. Your house is huge and if you cover it with solar, it might cover the power use. Your electric car is small and uses several times more power than your house.
I also have another idea of how to go over it. Old cars A/C was not efficient and you could save money by driving with it off and windows open. These days you save with windows up so less drag in most cases. I don't think if you make a modern car A/C electric motor driven you can get enough solar panels on the car to run the A/C only in most cases if not all.
I live in Florida so, I have an idea I would love to have in all my cars. A small solar panel to run a fan to blow fresh air in the car when it is parked so I don't have to get into them when they are crazy hot from the sun. Simple, reasonable, and fairly cheap option so it could be done.
I believe the solar ventilator is available as an aftermarket product. I believe some versions of the Prius also have this built-in.
Yes there are some trash window mount things, I will never use. Factory could do it in a way you only see a small panel is what I'm interested in. Prius has it? Maybe the newest model when I can get one used to save on some gas, but I often need to tow and haul thing leaving me no choice but a truck half the time.
@@ShawnDickens The solar-powered ventilator was an option starting with the 2010 model year. I could be mistaken but it seems to be included with the sunroof models. The 2010-2015 years have this option. I don't know about the later generations. It's hard to find information online because some of the newer versions, in some select markets, have an option for a battery-charging panel.
Likely the best way to get effeciency is to use micro solar panels that automatically track the sun. They would be under a glass panel to maintain aerodynamics.
The solar panels on the rear of the vehicle could be bifacial panels.
There is no way to produce enough solar power to maintain the batteries while driving.
On the freeway they may add a few percentage of range. In stop-and-go traffic they could be signicant, especially combined with regenerative breaking.
The reason is that with stop-and-go traffic the car will have several seconds of very low power usage, followed by a surge to get the car moving, then low power to maintain the very low speeds and regenerative power during breaking, starting the cycle again. The solar panels will add a small amount of power during these cycles, greatly extending range.
From now on I use miles of range to discuss charging, use and battery charge. EVs don't work this way, but it makes for an easier to understand discussion and gives an idea of what happens even if it's just a very loose approximation.
Another benefit is that the solar would continue charging even if the car is off, such as parked while shopping or working. It's likely to add a few miles per hour of charging. Even 10 miles of range per hour parked is huge.
Imagine driving 5 miles to the grocery store, park 1/2 hour while shopping and drive home. You would use 10 miles of range but charge 5 miles of range. The trip now only cost 5 miles of range.
If you drive 30 miles to work, park for 8 hours (assume 6 hours of active sunlight) and drive home you would need 60 miles of range but charge 30-60 miles of range. If the battery is full when you leave the house you would lose 30 miles of range driving, then gain 30 miles of range until the batteries are full again. To get the full 60 miles of charge, you would need to leave your house with 30+ miles missing from fully charged batteries.
An EV used this way could be configured to only charge the batteries at home to 90% (which will extend their life) in order to maximize the free solar charging while working.
In truth, an EV with solar and regenerative breaking should have an option for a small 2000-5000 watt inverter-generator.
Using the cars GPS mapping and inputting Max driving hours, combined with expected temps (and a bit of maching learning on your heating or AC usage) the car's computer would be able to plan if generator charging is required.
This means the tiny gas engine would only run if needed and possibly allow long range trips without waiting hours to charge.
It would make the EV reliable even in very cold temperatures.
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RAM came out with a product that they called "mild hybrid". It was a small electric battery and small electric motor.
It is used during auto engine stop (ie at a stop light the ICE turns off, when you hit the accelarator the electric motor starts movement with the ICE restarts).
It also increased torque at low speeds.
The problem is that the batteries are charged by the ICE. Thus you always use more power to charge than the system returns to you.
The system is great and in my opinion should be required on all auto-stop equipped vehicles as a safety measure.
Imagine you pull up to a stop light, auto engine stop engages. You then need to accelerate, but the engine fails to restart. With the mild hybrid system you would at least be able to move slowly and be able to move off the road.
Now imagine combining the mild hybrid system with regenerative breaking. The electric motor could be part of the drive shaft. Smaller regular breaks could be put on the wheels as a backup.
Now the small battery would be charged when regeneratively breaking, such as stop-and-go traffic. This would greatly reduce the fuel required to charge the battery.
The heaviest part of an EV is it's battery pack, often weighing 1000 pounds or more. The extra weight requires heavier suspensions, bigger electric motors, bigger wheels and tires. All of which is very expensive.
Upgrading the mild hybrid system would mean large batteries and large motors. It would increase in city MPG of ICE vehicles.
I think of that stuff all the time. I heard about printable or paintable solar panels once, like 15 years ago. I thought that would have been good, Just use that to paint the car. I drive a Hybrid now, lots of little things you can do yourself to get better mileage. Mostly how you drive. If it's cold your mileage will go down also. I vary between 48 to 63 MPG cold to 60 degrees respectively. 90 degrees it's about 54 because of the air conditioning. And I never use cruise control, because that just downshifts too much. Very interesting episode. I really do think most people are to selfish and lazy to change their driving habits though. haha
Solar panels on cars would just be a way to charge the batteries a tiny bit while driving, but would be OK for maybe going to work and parking in the sunlight. It may save a lot on using grid electric to charge.
Model Y needs 250watt/hours per mile.
Solar ideally gets about 6 hours of full sun per day. So, with a 400-watt panel on a car, you have 2400w/hrs per day to play with. That is about 10 miles per day.
Is it unlimited. No. Is it better than nothing. Yes
The main perk of having some solar on the vehicle is to keep parasitic draws from slowly draining the battery. (This applies to ICE cars too.
Put a small panel on the car to keep it topped off. Put the rest of the panels on a car port for the bulk of the charging.
I personally think plug in hybrids make the most sense. You get the best of both worlds. The trouble is, in NZ they will tax this extended range that offsets the advantage. And over 8 years when the battery wears out, the replacement cost makes the whole hybrid option not worth it.
A modest solar panel on a car can be useful for offsetting quiescent drain. Without one it is a certainty that your car will not start if you leave it for long enough ( a few months, maybe). But with a solar panel you could ensure that if the car is left in a well illuminated enough place, and not too horribly inefficient/power hungry, then it could even get a few miles back if you leave it long enough.
To get meaningful useful range from solar panels, the vehicle needs to be optimised for that, which increases costs with expensive solar panels, batteries, BMS, light weight materials, and inconvenient shape due to aero. Cars like the Aptera and Lightyear One are examples of those compromises and how that shakes out.
It can work, but not for all applications, and on big inefficient bricks it's like trying to lose weight by taking the cherry off the top of your tri-daily ice-cream sundae.
What would happen if you were to install magnets in all 4 tire rims inner edge and have them rotate past a coil or several coils. Wouldn't that induce an electrical current to the coil(s)? Would the added weight negate any advantage of the power generated?
That is basically regenerative braking. I described this in detail in the video. EV can already get the benefit of this without the downside of doing it the way you describe. Check the video for details!
What about a wind capture with 2 windmills underneath
Can you reason that please
It's really easy: We generate power from the top of the car with light and from the bottom with darkness.
We're a long ways from solar powered cars. To little area for the power a car uses.
Brilliant!! Im stupid and even I can understand this
My question is not use it as a main only use it for a add on aka just add some for led lights or the screen or something simple not too much just as addon
Although it kind of seems scammy, check out the Aptera solar "car," that's legally a motorcycle in the USA because it has 3 wheels.
Have you test flexible solar to see it's efficiency? Just curious. Let us know please.
A Tesla loses about %1 of charge a day just sitting. I think a panel sized to make up for that loss would be great for times the car is parked for long periods of time. Like sitting at the airport parking lot. Wonder why that wouldn't work.
It would, I've thought the same rooftop solar to stop parasitic loss to the battery 🔋 bank.
What people really want is a rear mounted hitch rack box containing a 670cc-999cc generator with forced air cooling and "pass through charging electronics" such as *Warped Perception* on YT did with a Tesla and various generators. Making it standalone and removable would allow for it to be used as a home emergency generator as well.
Warped Perceptions Tesla was a fraud. He didn't use a real generator, he just threw an engine in the trunk & called it generator for views ......The quickest easiest way would have been to just buy a gas or diesel portable generator and throw in the back. The gas & diesel engine he used had no generator head on them. 😂 😂 People are so quick to believe everything they see online. Then......it's always much easier to fool them but practically impossible to convince them that they have been fooled.
That would be nice. EV batteries are expensive and heavy so for most driving a large battery is a hindrance. I'm thinking the generator extender would be most useful as a rental. They could also do extended batteries as rentals. Either way, you'd be able to get a cheaper and more efficient car for the 99% use case. Then you would rent a different car if you need it, only you'd actually still be driving your own car.
Lol they removed my comment about warped perception building a fake generator for his Tesla. If the video was real the engine would have a generator head on it. Also just putting a 7500 w or 10,000w portable generator in the back would have been the quickest & easiest.
@@michaelbrinks8089 Have you ever seen the insides of an inverter generator? They use higher-frequency pancake alternators which are integrated with the flywheel. When I watched the Warped Perception video it was obvious to me that this is what was used.
I do agree putting a 7500w portable generator in the trunk would have been quicker and easier. But it still wouldn't have been easy to integrate: safety rules dictate that an EV can't be put in drive when plugged in. Not only that but Teslas repurpose the motor electronics when charging. Even if you bypass the safety they are physically incapable of driving and AC charging at the same time. You'd still need custom charge circuitry.
If you need custom charge circuitry you may as well use the more efficient powerhead from an inverter generator. This might also makes circuit design easier because it's easier to efficiently convert the high-frequency 3ph output into steady DC than it is with the single-phase 60Hz of a traditional unit.
Reason why this does not work is power density of sunlight (amount of energy per area). The power available in the area of the car is too small (~3kW) for the power it would require (tens to over hudred of kilowatts). The energy simply is not there. Not gonna work, unless you are ready to wait two weeks between rides.
i guess I will just leave my solar panels to fuel my rose bed lights during the summer...thanks for the video because I really thought a solar panel on a Tesla would make it run way longer
Check out Aptera. Gets up to 40 miles per day from solar charging from built in panels
I think there are a number of viewers watching this who are thinking and asking about, why haven't Combustion Engine Vehicle Manufacturers considered putting regenerative breaking on vehicles powered by combustion engines?
The idea has not been considered most likely is because the current design relies on the Electric Motors on each Wheel is what must already in place on Combustion Engine Vehicle Wheels which do not have the Electrical Motors already part of the Wheels in Combustion Engine Vehicles.
It is this aspect that is what is included in electric vehicles that is critical that makes regenerative breaking, a reality!!!
Custom-shaped, ultra-flexible CIGS solar panels can be made to fit the aerodynamic shape of cars.