AFFIXES ARE GONE?? HUGE M+ ADJUSTMENTS COMING TO THE WAR WITHIN BETA
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2024
- Following an interview developers had with WoWhead last week, we got a blue post discussing changes to M+ in TWW which functions differently for key pushers and your average weekly key player. I've got a ton more War Within content coming in the future including Raid, Dungeon, and Tank spec guides, so make sure you're subscribed to the channel so you know when those get posted!
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Thank god, these are insanely good changes!
Our prayers to have bolstering and sanguine removed have been answered
Xpac literally saved, no joke. Very good changes.
Yup really excited to test them all out!
Yes, I was about the cancel my sub with the previous changes.
In BLZ's logic, having higher difficulty means punishing mechanic. Man, why do they have to punish players that acutally play the game.
I like this alot. They clearly show they want to experiment which is exactly what wow needs at this point. Big thumbs up from me. Excited for beta testing!
Oh yeah, was not expecting the 180 they did after their initial affix post but very happy to see it!
I think a new set of affixes to replace bolstering sanguine and raging, along with the removal of afflicted and incorporeal, would have also been acceptable for me. It's hard to complain about this, though!
Yeah, my biggest issue has always been specifically the unfun affixes, I'm open to the idea of a rotation but also super down to try this essentially affixless season out!
What will most likely end up happening is they cut back on the key scaling modifier in higher keys to account for fort+tyran+new affix.
Also, there's just a world where the new "cap" on what players can do is a 21 instead of a 24 or whatever.
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they want keys to cap out around 20 instead of going much past it. The key will be the base damage/health on mobs, which if they get right will solve any potential scaling problems.
the xalatath stuff sounds cool, and the ascendant is a perfect example of how the affixes should be imo. lower keys will prob be fun to play around in. higher keys being set in stone sounds like a good idea in theory, but i feel like it will get boring quite quickly with no variations week to week. sure, stuff like sanguine, necrotic, explosive etc was all annoying to deal with, but it did make each dungeon each week different. also, tyr just feels unfun zzZzZz
Yeah my thought is No Affixes > Bad Affixes, but potentially interesting Kiss/Curse affixes would be better than no affixes to keep things interesting, but I'm down to give both a try and see how it works out! Hoping that with Fort/Tyr being every week it means that they bring down the base damage/health of dungeons to compensate so tuning feels decent.
How about possibly changing the death penalty time affix to something like "any time you rez, you are briefly weakened for 15-30 seconds, dealing 10% less damage" or maybe every time you die in a dungeon, you gain a stacking damage debuff (2%? per death). That way you would get penalized for dying but it doesn't affect the timer since dying arguably already affects the timer on its own enough.
Oh man, DPSers would love a damage down affix I hear hahaha
i am so so very much glad that sanguine especially is getting removed, was not fun to play especially as a tank
and on bolstering as well, high fort keys or even tyra just become very hard
bursting was just a complete nope for the entire week, no fun to heal, no fun to even play
affixes that punish you for big pulls are contrary to what people want from m+, keys are the most fun when you can do insanely huge pulls
biiiiiig win so far, need to wait to see tuning and how the new affixes interact with the dungeons but im very optimistic
Dragonflight was a great expansion and i love that many great things about DF are maintained in TWW and some things are further improved, great stuff and great direction the game has been heading recently, cant wait for TWW
also thanks for keeping us updated
Yeah really happy that they are showing they're willing to try out new things if the community is vocal about the current system not working. Can't wait to test everything out!
Seem good changes. We dont really know if it hurts the pugging world or not. It really depends on how the base scaling is done.
Yup, the biggest question mark in all of this is definitely the base scaling as it can make or break the system with all the damage and health modifiers that now exist.
I really like the changes though I think they need to either keep the kids curse on 12+ or do away with the extra seat timer. That 40% more damage on top of key damage increase will just be one shot city
If all the damage/health increase affixes are taken into account with their base values I think it could be fine, but definitely a tad worried given their track record for the past couple seasons.
I like the changes a lot but i think that this penalty stuff will bring higher pressure to tank and heal, i hope this wont become a boomerang for blizz
Yeah, really hoping they walk back that +7 affix and put something else there
honestly I like this! this will separate the good players from the bad players even more. people will have to learn to interrupt again and actually be held accountable vs just run though without having to have a vengence dh do all the silencing.
Yeah generally these changes are pretty positive, 15s death penalty seems a bit high but if that's my biggest complaint then you know it's solid
@@TactyksI think the peril one should a 1 or 2 seconds on every subsequent death. Or just remove it 😂
I think these are great changes! It is nice that it is going to take all the PITA affixes away and make Mythic+ runs a lot more fun and interesting with these affixes! As a Holy Pally main (RIP) it is nice to see that healing will HOPEFULLY not be as big of a hassle for me in TWW.
Yeah I'm very happy to see things like Sanguine, Bolstering, and Raging go. All they ever did for me was make me not want to do keys that week.
@@Tactyks Exactly. I hope they never return. Straight to the Maw, right away.
"Starting at +7 new affix find a comp that everyone has a cheat death." Fixed it.
In seriousness have some concerns how this can impact players learning. This seems like it would take the stink eye for dying to a new level. On top of your good points about it.
Yeah really hoping they rethink the death timer affix in particular, other than that I'm pretty happy overall!
I think 15s penalty is fine for just the single dps deaths that occur throughout a pull due to standing in crap or not using defensives, but the time penalty for a full group wipe is going to be absolutely brutal, especially without improved respawn checkpoints. A minute and 15 seconds plus the walking time, possible loss of your cds, and loss of progress on whatever pack or boss you were fighting. That being said, it is still a massive W if it means no sanguine, bolstering, raging, or bursting.
Yeah, if the biggest complaint I have currently is about death timers then that's a real positive hahaha.
An idiot in the group constantly dying hurts the entire group and run. Now it’s worse. I PUG. I foresee players leaving after less deaths in this new system. The race will still be to get to a high io score, just better be faster now to leave behind most of the BS.
15 sec Death penalty is too punishing. Gonna have a lot of leavers after a single wipe.
Yup, I understand the goal of the level 7 affix but I think tying it to deaths is the wrong way to go about it.
The idea is that these are option you can activate?
1 min in and already big W
Oh yeah, can't wait to test the changes out!
The time most player played the game was in WOTLK. There wasnt something like M+ or affixes.... can we please get a little bit back like that and remove panalty completely? Maybe just to test...Pandaria Remix showed something like that... -_- I'm sick to remember everything... I.just.want.to.play.the.game....
It will still suck and I will still do it.
At least you're honest hahaha
Death time penalty is horrible. Deaths were already met with toxicity in keys. This is just going to amplify that 15-fold. All Peril is going to do is scare people away from pushing keys, the exact opposite of what they are wanting to do.
No other change they made matters, this will overshadow all of them.
I was looking forward to coming back to WoW this xpac and running keys. Not so sure now.
Terrible changes.
You say that you're worried that the +20% from Xal'atath's Guile is gonna affect boss or not, because of the potential of one shot mechanics.
I don't see the issue here. Players are gonna push until they get in the realms of oneshot mechanic either way. If it starts happening on a +15 and not on a +21, what the big difference in the end of the day ?
The lower the key level one-shots start to happen, the more the focus of pushing high keys shifts to pure survivability over optimizing damage, which imo restricts the meta more because a lot of specs are within ~5% overall damage, but defensives available and general tankiness has a much bigger disparity. They're always going to happen at some key level, but I think there's a big difference between it starting at the top 5% of keys vs starting at the top 0.1% of keys in terms of community perception of what specs are "good".
I agree that 15 seconds penalty is a little bit harsh, but I completely disagree on removing death penalty at all. That would lead to dead brain tactics when people would sacrifice themselves (e.g jumping from cliffs) for skips/leaving combat/faster routes via respawn place exploits/etc. Just examples from top of my head.
Personally I don't have a problem with death skips, because even without a death timer they will always be slower than doing a regular skip because you dont have to sit there and rez. That and generally respawn points are pretty bad in dungeons so not really exploitable. Someone else made a decent suggestion in the comments where baseline the death penalty is 0 and then at a +7 it becomes 5s which I could get behind but is something I doubt they'll do.
@Tactyks I see your point. But during writing my comment I thought about all crazy possibilities that would be created through death by someone like Echo during mdi/tgp. But anyway, let's see how it will work out during first test season of TWW. At least this time Blizzard hears the feedback. BTW, thank you for your content! I am a healer main who really likes tanking because of your channel! ❤️
@@RioDru Oh yeah I'm sure groups like Echo would come up with some crazy strategies which I think would be kind of fun to see but I get the concern. Glad to hear you enjoy the content friend!
The death penalty exists because of the prevalence of BRs. Its leaves an opening for cheesing mechanics. I think 5 is fine 15 is oppressive.
But there's already a solution to that in game, limiting the amount of BRs you can use. If you want to cheese a mechanic with a death + BR it leaves you vulnerable to accidental deaths later on since you have a limited number of uses. On top of that, having to run back or losing CDs/Buffs after dying is already a >5s time loss so it feels a tad unnecessary, though I can live with a 5s penalty. 15s is for sure excessive though and I hope they try and do the +7 affix in a different way.
@@Tactyks I don’t disagree that the penalty is salt in a wound already I think drop the penalty default and leave the affix.
@@deepzz4056 That would be nice to see, no death penalty baseline and a 5s death penalty at +7 and above. Somehow I doubt they'll do that though haha
Hey Tactyks, everyone here.
Im not a fan of some changes, but fuck atleast they are somewhat listening and trying new shit.
In the past it was just sorry too bad its what were doing. So i must say tww seems very promising
Yup, super happy to see them willing to experiment so close to the expansion release, really looking forward to testing!
Avrage death in pog is 20 if not more🙃🙃
Yeah it seems extremely punishing for things like wipes, where now on top of having to run back and losing any CDs you had up, you also lose 75s on the timer.
Dont like the tyran and fortified. People already hate tyranical week and now if you a +10 enjoyer you always have it. I guess the question becomes do they change the scaling from key to key cause all those effects stacking can become completely out of control.
The death penalty seems extreme at +15, a group wipe means your key is completely done most likely. Punishing enough to run back and get 25 secs off.
Outside of that it is great to see them listening, lets hope that continues
They definitely need to be on top of the base health/damage of mobs to make sure tyran/fort scaling doesn't get crazy, but it may actually be easier to balance them since they always are going to have both buffs on 10+ keys so there's more consistency. Will have to see how it goes but I'm definitely feeling positive overall!
@@Tactyks it just a question of perspective and many are looking only negatively at it. They are going to tune dungeons based on them having Tyr and Fort all the time, which in turn means Tyr and Fort are gone and instead we have an affix that nerfs trash or bosses either week for keys lower than +10
If you have both active doesn’t it mean effectively you have neither? Just a new baseline starting point for scaling?
@@normannseils3936 exactly
@@normannseils3936 That's basically how I see it, this is essentially just universal scaling but with an extra step to make lower keys easier.
You kept saying no affixes on high key then refer to affixes on high keys.
What I mean is there's nothing extra to deal with as all those affixes have been removed, instead on high keys all the affixes just passively boost damage/health of the mobs in the dungeon or increase the death timer penalty, so there's nothing on top of the mechanics in the dungeon to think about.
If they now remove key depletion I’m a happy boy. No more wasted 30-40 minutes in your group upgrading utterly useless keys.
Would be cool to see more adjustments like that, though I have a feeling their focus is definitely on affixes atm and not the keystone system itself so we may have to wait for S2 to see those changes.
The death punishment affix is unnecessary imo.
100%
13:37 video time, I see your subliminal messaging!
Hahaha I didn't even realize that's the length, very fitting.
they made it even worse, since i dont do low key dungeons ill be forced to do the exact same dungeon every single week for months because affixes arent going to change anymore. How can blizzard think this gives variety? It's FUCKING DUMB honestly. Most people will run multiple keys for 2-4 weeks and then... bye see you next season.
Yes, if you end up at your skill and gear ceiling there is no point wasting money and time anymore. Isn’t that a good change? Anything else screams abusive relationship or addiction. The only thing affixes did was make me wait for a push week and being bored inbetween.
Imagine now they Actualy Solve Meta problem: This will even more Push meta of evoker/Mage For Stay Alive in keys
huh?!?!?!?
If they keep the death penalty at 15 seconds for sure. With current tuning I would put DK in that bracket as well. Unholy is basically ranges and is unkillable.
1st
SPEED
This is literally awful for pugging. This system is incredibly punishing for tanks. On lower than 12, tanks will be blamed for having mobs get buffed by falling orbs (some mobs are impossible to move) and on top of that, now having to deal with both tyranical and fortified at the same time... This is how you kill tanking and healing even more. There is already such a shortage of these roles.
This caters to 5% of people and hurts the 95% that pug. No matter what, you will hit a wall that you cannot push past and, when that happens, with no variety in this system, you will stop pushing.
I wouldn't jump to conclusions just yet as we haven't even seen how the affixes work or what their final forms will be. This post alone shows Blizzard is listening to feedback and making significant adjustments based on what they hear, so hopefully that continues into further iterations. As for having both Fort and Tyran, all that means is universal scaling where you'll get to avoid half of it below +10 keys, and outside of that just means you have something consistent to deal with on a week-to-week basis, which seems fine to me as a tank player but maybe others disagree.
@@Tactyksthe issue is who are they listening to? Only people who play for score? That seems like a very low percentage, but it is the loudest people. No matter what they implement, even if there were no affixes at all, there will end up being a wall that people cannot pass with the meta specs.
All they needed to do to cater to people who only care about score is to give each affix a score, then average all of the affix scores out for an overall score. Fixes every problem with "push weeks" cause now those who care only about score have to push each affix to its max.
Though, I do agree removing the bad affixes was good. This system hurts people who pug keys in the 12-15 range right now because it caters only to the top 1% pushing the 20 range.
@@krusin89 Looking at raider.io, people who PUG keys in the 12-15 range ARE the top 1% of players, so it makes sense to me that they are designing 12+ towards people who want to be more competitive and push score while keeping the feel of rotating kiss/curse thematic affixes for people who do keys from +2 to +11. Seems like a fair compromise to me honestly
@@Tactyks but aren't most of the 2-11 range just after loot? (Thus easier, the better.) And who wants the new 15 sec death timer? Hoping this experiment doesn't survive beyond season 1. Unchanging keys above 12 will lead to boredom.
@@AvoxNilhi This system should make it easier for those players in the 2-11 range only after loot. For example you can spam +9s for aspect crests and myth track great vault, while avoiding the 2nd Fort/Tyran of that specific week, with the extra +20% scaling from the +12 affix, and with a kiss/curse affix that HOPEFULLY (key word here) makes the keys easier as opposed to harder. We'll see how it all works out in practice, but in theory this sounds like it addresses both groups of players so im hopeful!
This sounds horrible. Outside of removing the shit affixes, these are going to make 12's diabolical
It's definitely a lot of compounding scaling effects, but in theory the scaling on a week-to-week basis will always be the same, so if the base mob health/damage is tuned correctly it should work. That's a decent sized "if" though, but still something to at least consider.
Yes, if blizzard (and they should) take the +12, or wherever the cutoff is, as that center around which they tune, this is the best change for m+ since its inception. Besides the seasonal with the portals of course 😂
2nd
At least your realized it before posting an embarrassing "1st" comment 2nd :P
@@Tactyks 😝
You’d think that Blizz would be more interested in making the community less toxic (the main reason players don’t run keys at all), but instead they created a new system that keeps the same old toxicity AND introduces new levels of toxicity beyond imagining. Most specifically Challenger’s Peril 15 sec death penalty will make people even more angry than they have ever been before. Unless they remove that penalty we are headed for a disastrous expansion in terms of the m+ environment.
Seems like there's been a lot of negative feedback regarding the death timer increase, hopefully they listen!