Review: The WORST Russian Symphony EVER!!
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- Опубликовано: 5 фев 2025
- Let's not mince words. The worse Russian symphony in the universe is Khatchaturian's Second, a horrible monstrosity whose musical material is as unsuited to the expression of tragic and heroic feeling as, well, I am--as I hope to demonstrate for you as graphically as possible. Have a look and listen, if you dare...
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David, I am going to respectfully disagree with you regarding this symphony. I first heard it over 20 years ago and have always LOVED it. I have been a history ( and espeicily military history) fanatic for over 40 years, that may be why I have always been able to connect with this symphony. Feel sorry you and all the others who do not share my appreciation for it- you really are missing out on great fun. As for me, I am thrilled every time I listen to Khachaturian's 2nd symphony.
Can't you disagree with me disrespectfully? It would be so much more fun...
I agree with you 100%!!!
@@DavesClassicalGuide OK, I'll try the disrespectfully option next time :)
@@DavesClassicalGuide now i get all your comments. Great! 😂
@@DavesClassicalGuide you delete comments that are disrespectful what are you talking about
I saw this symphony performed a couple of years ago and I didn't think much of it until then. It's a great Russian symphony on par with many of the classics that I think is better experienced in concert than in recording. That said, I enjoy your videos, even when you are wrong. Keep up the great work!
No, it isn't better in concert, just louder.
Plot twist: Khachaturian wasn’t Russian.
Khachaturian and Hovhaness were the most famous Armenian composers; One in the Soviet Union and the other in the U.S.A.
Yes, he was born in Tbilisi in the armenian family, but he was definitely soviet composer. He was admitted to Moscow National Conservatory 1929.
Thanks
I know that, but he was a Soviet artist and operated in that cultural milieu, so musically speaking, he certainly was "Russian" in the wider sense. Let's not be pedantic.
No, but he was Soviet.
He was Armenian under the culture of the Soviet Union. Not sure if many Armenians follow you Dave, so maybe you will get away with it. Boris Lyatoshinsky was Ukrainian, Eduard Tubin was Estonian, did they write Russian Symphonies? One for debate
My recordings database shows that I have no recordings of this, so I'm all set.
Same here :)
Lol!
Now THAT is an interesting and attention-grabbing title. I feel like this can be a new series you can do David.
Could be, but the problem is that I like too much. I can trash specific performances easily, but works have to be truly awful; and while there are plenty of those, they tend not to be by major composers and receive multiple recordings.
Hi David. I think I listened to this after watching this video and agreed. Right now I’m listening to his violin concerto. You’ve said that there’s a dearth of violin concertos in the repertoire. I hadn’t wondered about it before you explained why so succinctly. Anyway, I’m really enjoying this one, and I think it should have a place in the repertoire. I’m surprised that it’s the first time I’ve heard it. The orchestral accompaniment is fantastic! I think it was Oistrakh on the violin; maybe his son? Khachaturian conducted.
Similar things were said about Tchaikovsky once. That he should stick to ballet music. Had no sense of form. How wrong they were!
But sometimes they were right.
One man's trash is another man's treasure, I guess...
Indeed. And sometimes another man's treasure is still trash!
The Stokowski-Chicago recording of the Khachaturian 3rd Symphony is huge fun! I love the organ part, because I am a concert organist. Also, it sounds like Hollywood score for Douglas Fairbanks Jr Baghdad Sinbad film!
Agreed.
I am in love with Katchaturian violin concerto recorded by L.Kogan, like written for him, full of virtuostity and heartfelt themes and Kogan is like the black panther in the jungle. Try the recording with the composer as a conductor
Otherwise I agree with Katchaturian shortcomings as a composer, a concerto eventhough repetitive can live through lovely themes and a great performer but for a symphony u got to have a bit broader perspective
I agree that Khachaturian's strength lies especially in ballet music, but personally I also enjoy listening to his symphonies. The music may not necessarily have a lot of depth or be particularly sophisticated in terms of form, but purely from the music, I like his symphonies. I don't find this music boring at all and for me personally that means that I wouldn't call it the worst Russian symphony.
Must you be so serious? Of course, like what you want.
Beside Kh's 3rd Symphony is so much worse.
Hello Dave, Just came across this video of yours. If you want to hear another AVON LADY at the door symphony, you can listen to the slow movement of TIKHON KHRENNIKOV'S: Symphony No. 2, Opus 9. Towards the end you get to hear DING DONG several times and it leaves you hanging with just a DING as the music fades away. My recording is the Svetlanov one with one of the USSR orchestra on VOX. It may not be a great symphony, but I enjoy listening to it once in a while. As for Khachaturian, I made a master disc of what I call MUSIC TO ANNOY YOUR NEIGHBORS WITH and Khachaturian's Third Symphony is on it. C ya, Fred
David, this review was a tour de force. Like Pauline Kael with movies, you are making classical music criticism a high art form. I was vacuuming and listening, and I laughed my way through all the dog hair. Brilliant! On another score--pardon the pun--I offer another beautiful melody: Balakirev's First Symphony, the Andante movement (#3). The cor anglais plays the melody shortly after the movement begins, and the melody is taken up and around the orchestra. The melody is exquisitely sad yet bittersweet, reminding me of life and its many struggles, calling out the nature of human suffering that is so very much part of the human condition. Yet we overcome it all, and can even finish vacuuming!
Thank you. Here's to housework set to great music!
But Pauline Kael was a hack whose opinions were uninformed dog mess.
@@ThreadBomb Hah, to each his own...
@@ThreadBomb Thanks for your thoughtful response. Well, to each his own.
I can not believe your choice David !! I love this symphony especially its third movement
Shocking, isn't it? If you love it, that's the symphony's good luck.
I agree about loving the third movement. It's deliciously ghoulish!
Mr Hurwitz: I was reading the book on Toscanini written by Harvey Sachs ("A musician Consience"). There is a remark that the conductor makes about works composed by even some of the great composers such a Verdi being laid to rest. There is something to this i think. I do not understand why conductors have to conduct all sorts of brobingnagian stuff. Pinainsts do not do that and positive that the singers also do not. Then i suppose the reason is the recording industry and somehow that conductors worry that they have a "limited repertoire"? I ordered this (conducted by Jarvi) a few years ago off of amazon because my father had heard it played by the CSO years ago and he would keep on talking about K's compositions. I played this for him. He inhaled a pinch of snuff gave me a fixed look and removed the c.d and it has not been found since! and after listening to you review listened to it on You Tube. Yikes! Hari
Wasn't Brobingnagian an Armenian composer? :-)
One reason why conductors do this is that they don't have to sit in front of a machine with 88 buttons on it and press each one at exactly the right time. The conductors who are ethical engage in serious score study and come up with a conception of the music and a plan for how to get the orchestra to realise a performance. Unethical conductors practise waving their stick to a recording a couple of times before the first rehearsal and hope for the best. Now which way do you suppose people with a repertoire of the complete works of everybody everywhere go about it?
@@marknewkirk4322 Mr Newkirk: This could be one reason. But this goes back a long way. Remember the quote of Berlioz! He reacted to Mendelsshohn conducting Schubert and Bach by saying that he (Herr M) was more intereted in the dead! In U.S the culprit seems to be people like Varese and his group. I had season tickets to NYP in the late 80s. suffered through two seasons where all sorts of ghoulish stuff was played 60% of the time (and i abandoned this painful and costly venture). So much so that the chief conductor of NYP (one of my fellow countrymen) was conducting everything from Bach to Bartok in the same way (a lot of noise). Years later i attended a concert at the Philhamonie (BPO) and the audience hissed when a 20 century composition was played (and it was Prokokofiev!)!. Hari
It is as grim a 50 minutes as it's possible to imagine - but his 3rd left me slack jawed in horrified disbelief. He could write a catchy melody but there's no structure to his larger efforts with no harmonic or contrapuntal interest whatsoever. That he was denounced in 1948 by Zhdavov for 'formalism' is nothing if ironic.
I'm warming to the idea of a concert of Russian music which could repeatedly be used to extract confessions from political dissidents. To enhance the listening experience all exits should be locked.
Overture: Anyone have suggestions? (Perhaps something by Khrennikov when the fires of inspiration were burning even lower than usual.)
Concerto: Easy! Djabadary Piano Concerto - repeated as an encore
Symphony: Khachaturian 2
Cruel and unusual practice it may be but it would certainly do the trick.
Sneering is such fun, isn't it? I must try it some time.
@@ThreadBomb rather depends on what you mean by sneering and what you mean fun. But I can heartily recommend getting a bit more fun in your life if that's possible.
Sorry Mr. Hurvitz - I voted this 2nd to be one of the best Symphonies ever along with Elgars 1st, Vaugn Williams 4th to 6th, Nielsen 4th and 5th, Shostakovitch 7th and the last ones of Rautavaara.. (not to mention Tschaikowsky 4th and 6th in an other ligue). Its 3rd movement is absolutely smashing.
C'mon. You have to remember, it was written during the worst period of WWII. What kind of emotions was floating around the country, which lost 20milions of its citizens? Imagine, you family is killed, you have no home and nothing to eat. After hearing this Symphony, you just want to grab a gun, or ax, and run all the way to Berlin.
Historical circumstances, however interesting, are not musical criteria and have no bearing on the experience of listening. If anything, they undermine the work's wannabe status as a "classic." If you want to call the piece "historically interesting but musically worthless," then I'm good for that.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I think the 2nd is good and the 3rd one is brilliant. And knowing the historical context helps to understand it better. But we don't have to agree haha
Im voting for Borodins second!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I agree. Copland's supremely-optimistic Appalachian Spring was composed as the Holocaust was going on. It's hard to imagine any work with such optimism being written since then unless it is the equivalent of maple syrup with added sugar.
Does this mean you won't be doing a review of Khachaturian symphonies recordings? Guess I'll just have to listen for myself
Come to think of it, other than the second movement piano solo, i don't remember a single tune in this thing.
I have both symphonies, the third with the Chicago Symphony and Stokowski which is jaw-dropping! Then the Composer's Vienna recording of the second which I switched off after 5 minutes
So interestingly enough when I was in high school and just getting into classical music, I heard this on classical radio for the first time. And I was extremely fascinated with the piece as a budding clarinet player to hear all the cool stuff that was being played. I thought it was really cool at the time. 2nd time I heard it was in college when I found a recording (Don't remember the orchestra or conductor) somewhere on youtube and at that point I was just listening to the piece as a whole instead of just cool woodwind parts, and I thought it was pretty okay to listen to. Now that I've graduated with a lot of different opinions and takes of my own, It's definitely something......"different" to listen to nowadays.
I agree with you a lot of the time, but certainly not here!! I think Khachaturian’s 2nd is a powerful, stirring work on par with the other great Soviet symphonies of the era. Sure, it’s a bit bombastic and over-the-top, but - let’s not kid ourselves - so are certain works by Tchaikovsky, Verdi, Mahler, Shostakovich, etc...
Same here. I think his worst symphony is No. 3, but No. 2 is indeed powerful. Järvi's recording on Chandos is the best out there.
Fair enough!
I too think Khach 2 is underrated. Arguably in the same class as Shost 7 in terms of war symphonies. Get the Melodiya recording conducted by the composer if you can. Much better than the his Vienna performance (better sound, too).
As a reviewer film and TV, I can say (without a doubt), trashing a work is much more satisfying (read: fun) that praising one. That doesn't mean the trashing necessarily yields superior criticism, but I can't deny my honest feelings. And, David, your snide comments are sometimes the most memorable although your praise has inspired me to spend more money on cds than my wife thinks good for the household budget. Keep up the good work!
You perfectly summed up the Symphony 3 experience. I come back to it sometimes just for the sheer fact that its scored for 15 trumpets, organ, and orchestra(for a total of 17 trumpets), even if the music is fairly off putting. I do like the melody towards the end a bit, not the best but okay…ish…
This has been one of my favorite Khachaturian works for years, but your review brought to my attention that it is not suitable as a symphony. It would have been better as another of his ballets or even is best suited as a movie soundtrack of a horror movie or even in spots for a James Bond film.
I can see (and hear) that!
Love your review - though I don't agree. I think the biggest problem here is that you have by far the lousiest recording of Khachaturian's 2nd that's ever made it's way to disc (and there aren't that many to choose from). The usually reliable Naxos should be ashamed they put out this travesty, particularly disappointing when Yablonsky is usually pretty reliable (his Swan Lake, also on Naxos, is superb as is his Shostakovich 7). Listen the Jarvi recording on Chandos to hear what this symphony ought to sound like.
I have all of the recordings of this dismal work. I didn't use the Naxos because it was great--in fact I said that it's not. I used it because (a) I could, and (b) it doesn't matter.
I seem to remember another Russian composer who used not a bell theme, but a fateful sounding tubular bell clang at a dramatic moment in a symphony, and that was Maximilian Steinberg in his Symphony No. 2, which is actually quite good. The piece took a repeated listening to grow on me, but it is much shorter than the Khachaturian and melodically much more appealing. You've likely heard the DG recording with Neeme Järvi conducting the Gothenburg Symphony. I agree that Khachaturian's ballet music is so much better than his symphonies. I'll always remember the strong impression the Adagio from Gayane made on me when, as a child, I first heard it in Stanley Kubrick's 2001 - A Space Odyssey. The austerity and beauty of writing is quite remarkable.
His 2nd and 3rd symphonies are loud. So I have enjoyed listening to them. The opening of 2nd is awesome. My choice is Jarvi's recording(2nd) and Glushchenko's(3rd) from chandos. I love them. Of course, I don't think they are masterpieces of music. I just like them very much.
For a moment i thought you were going to say his THIRD symphony was the worst.....phew!
Oh, I dunno, Dave - I wouldn't think Khachaturian's Second merits the title of "worst Russian symphony." There are so many others to consider to be in the running for that honor - chief among them Khachaturian's THIRD symphony...
But keep up the phenomenal work. I'm amazed at how often I'm in total agreement with you - not only on the topics of specific works and composers, but I was stunned when you revealed your top complaints about CD packaging, which mirror my OWN constant out-loud gripes whenever I have to unwrap a new CD or visit an old one on the shelves. And yes, FWIW, my home ALSO has a large overflow room for all those...curiosities, lesser-played recordings, and of course, the Djabadaries of the world. (Bought THAT sucker decades ago at the wonderful Newberry Comics in Boston and have cherished that CD's rarity - in all aspects of that word - ever since.)
I got the Decca Vienna Phil recording as a teenager. 50 years later I have never wavered in my love for the Khachaturian 2nd, with the possible exception of the fourth movement. The motivic repetitions don't bother me any more than they do in Janacek, and a lot less than in Philip Glass. To each his own. My choice for worst Russian symphony - and they're nearly all great - would be Popov's No. 3 for strings. It's so bland and unimaginative after his exciting 1st. Mosolov's Fifth, recently out on Naxos, is pretty dull too. My personal choice for best Russian symphony would be another favorite from my teens, Shostakovich 10.
I'm with you on Shostakovich 10.
For shame! Now I can't ger the picture of the said cosmetic lady instead of Norman Bates in the shower scene set to the excerpt you used. Whacked!
Even though I've stated my love for Khachaturian a number of times to my fellow commenty people, in my mind the 2nd is just kind of ok. It's one of those pieces I have to be in very particular mood too - a mood where I crave a lot of tubular bells.
Well, that's an interesting guilty pleasure =)
After listening to this, I think that my symphonic output is not so bad after all
I remember a review that said of this symphony that "its quality is in inverse proportion to its volume ... and it is a very loud score indeed." For once you agree with Gramophone!
I am very proud to have guessed your choice before looking.
I thought he was going to choose K's third!
This is ridiculous, surely the 3rd is worse than the 2nd. And I think the 2nd is great. Perhaps you haven't heard a good recording? The one to get is conducted by the composer in the USSR, not Vienna. This is the revised version, in much better sound than Vienna, and the musicians play their hearts out.
I've heard all of them. Bad is bad. Period.
I got Neeme Jarvi’s recording of this work out of curiosity. I have played it twice; both times I wondered why and how Khatchaturian would put such pointless noise on paper. For what it’s worth, Jarvi and the RSNO play the heck out of it, but the music is a lost cause.
My son, a pianist and avid listener, also listened to this symphony and commented”Dad, that’s just wacky.” Enough said.
I agree, though, that Järvi is about as loud--er, good--as it gets.
I now understand where Bernard Herrmann got that riff, and slashed Khachaturian's 2nd to death with it in the shower.
Not a complete failure, the andante´s theme on metals with strings on the back is well worth the wait
Play it separately, then you don't have to wait.
David, I was really shocked with your choice. I was suspecting the 1st symphony by Ippolitov-Ivanov. I will say that Yablonsky’s performance is about the worst one in my opinion. I first heard The Bell over 30 years ago and since then, I probably have or have heard every recording of it. Jarvi’s is great as is Rafail Mangasanous or Vladimir Fedoseyev with the Moscow RTV Symphony Orchestra. About 25 years or so ago, Loris Tjeknavorian performed it at Carnegie Hall with his Armenian Philharmonic Orchestra and it was a thrilling performance. Yes, it’s loud and bombastic, but i wouldn’t call it trashy. It’s quite colorful and it’s always been one of my favorite Russian symphonies. As far as a WWII Soviet symphony goes, it’s far better than the second of Tikhon Khrennikov, which is dreadfully dated and boring. But, as my dear father used to say, that’s why some like chocolate and some like vanilla.
Yablonsky is competent, but certainly not known for any of his performances catching fire.
Yes, and I wasn't recommending a recording. I don't recommend any recordings of this work, so thank you for your suggestions.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Entirely welcome!
@@DavesClassicalGuide How about a talk on WWII Soviet symphonies? So many to choose from with three by Shostakovich, two by Prokofiev and Myaskovsky’s Symphony No. 22. Or even a talk on Myaskovsky!
I enjoy Ippolitiv-Ivanov's First, if only for its evocative images of wintertime.
What a knucklehead. You like his other works but hate Symphony No. 2? Non-sense.
Hi from Montreal !
I have a request if it’s possible ..can you show or explain the difference between Irish folks songs and Scottish songs, musically speaking ?
Merci Beaucoup
That isn't really my area of expertise, sorry.
@@DavesClassicalGuide OK Thanks
Glad I never got a recording of this
symphony! I do have the 3rd only because it’s on the same CD with Stokowski’s CSO Shostakovich 6 and Age of Gold Suite, both which are great. I listened to the Khachaturian once and thought, “What the hell is that?!” Never
returned to it again, but love the Shostakovich.
That's the thing about Khachaturian's 3rd: it's just baffling. No one has yet explained what the composer thought he was doing.
My vote would have been for one of the Gliere symphonies. It’s been awhile. I listened to it and got rid of it and stopped thinking about it (mostly), so I forget which number it was. Two sticks in my head but it could have been 3. It kept starting to go somewhere and then jumping back and layering on more.expectstion, more drama I suppose, but it seemed to go on like this forever. The worst case of the late Romantic won’t shit, won’t get off the toilet syndrome I ever heard. Drama eventually turns to tedium so the payoff can’t be worth the wait.
No 2 is awful but no 3 is utter crap . And yet his concertos and ballets are wonderful . Maybe he just had a couple of off days when he wrote them .
Thanks for your hillarious reveiws Dave
Classic Dave.. what can say, you made my day, again!
Maybe your best video thumbnail so far!
How to explain the Vienna PO agreeing to record such a work. I am not a fan of the concertos either, but it is interesting that Spartacus (especially the adagio) is sublime.
Agreed, but it is rather long and seems it.
The 3rd is pretty bad.
But, for me, Khachaturian's Piano Concerto and Violin Concerto are more indicative of his real talent. They are delightful.
No argument from me there!
Never heard this piece, so my first instinct after watching your colossal pan was curiosity--I cued up the RUclips with the Armenian Philharmonic. I really did not think it was that bad, and certainly rather action-packed. The first movement has some nice ideas, thought it ended strangely, petered out like a car running out of gas. The second movement I thought was a whirling dervish. I kind of liked the frenetic aspect. The big climax in the 3rd movement was awesome. Last movement was cruel to the violins who had to play endless triplets, music seemed to meander, probably the most disjointed of the four. At the very least I was sufficiently entertained throughout, and since you have always insisted that classical music is fundamentally entertainment, I cannot quite agree with your final assessment.
Fair enough. I'm glad you listened for yourself.
Wasn't expecting this choice David. What do you make of Shostakovich's 12? Shostakovich was a bigger name, and surely the 12th is a bigger fall than Khach achieves here?
Not even close. Shostakovich 12 has at least two powerful and affecting movements.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hmmm, if you say so. To me it's uniformly second rate music for a composer of Shostakovich's stature. The finale is truly awful...I believe that there were always questions regarding this symphony, and the political pressures he was under to write it, perhaps that had its effect.
@@folanpaul Yes, I'm sure it diid. But you didn't ask if I thought it was great music, merely if I thought it was worse than Khach 2, and the answer is "no."
@@folanpaul Everyone agrees that the finale of Shostakovich 12 is a problem. But the preceding movements are fine. I recommend Rostropovich's recording.
@@ThreadBomb in my opinion, also DS' 3rd is completely a problem...and not a great passion for 2nd too...
I never heard a note I did not like. The more the merrier.
Me neither. I love every note. It's the symphony that sucks.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Then listen one note a the time. Will change your perspective. A bell can only play one note at a time, right? Hello from Montreal. Congrats on your new president.
@@jacquesracine9571 Thank you, I'll tell him. And I don't need to spend 50 minutes listening to those particular notes one at a time--I have so many better options!
Gaynia?? “Gayaneh” is the name of the ballet - gay-a-ne. It’s not difficult. And the second symphony is not that bad.
Yes, discussing great turkeys of classical music is always fun! Personally, I think Shostakovich's 12th Symphony is pretty bad.
I've never felt Khachaturian was a "serious" composer, but more in the tradition of light orchestral music (Albert Ketelbey, Eric Coates, LeRoy Anderson etc). Highly effective and tuneful, but not much below the surface. But I will give this a listen to see if I change my mind.
It is quite enjoyable and effective music, when you forget it should have been a symphony. A horrible, tasteless monstrosity is for me Gliere's Ilja Muromez.
Sorry, I think Gliere's Ilya Murometz is absolutely brilliant.
Considering what you have said of him, the worst German or Austrian symphony will be by Greinke.
I haven't liked anything I've played by Khachaturian, including the ballet music. My heart sinks if I ever see his name on the rehearsal schedule.
Now i HAVE to check out this symphony. I adore fun trash .
Agreed on no.2. But I’m kinda conflicted on no.3. The brass and organ stuff is annoying. But that C major tune in the middle is kinda haunting. Especially the way Stokowski recorded it.
could you send a link to it i would appreciate it
I agree with David. It would be okay if it were meant to be a symphonic suite. Its structure and thematic treatment are not what I expect from a symphony.
HIDIOUS!!!! However extremely entertaining...thank you so much!!
Hello David. Having never heard this symphony before, I had, of course, to go away and listen to it! Neeme Järvi and the RSNO. It certainly has some redeeming features, but I take your point, especially the 'Ding-Dong' excerpt you played which is decidedly lame! The bass clarinet in the first movement also sounded odd to me: like someone a little tone-deaf humming tunelessly in the bath to a favourite track. Are we sure Khachaturian got his transposition right for that part? I couldn't help wondering if it might sound better a semitone or two higher or lower LOL. And the four-note motto in the third movement is rather banal, as are some of the themes in the last movement. Ah, here it comes: Ding-Dong!
Yes, it's not a very subtle piece, but I've spent worse musical three-quarters of an hour, and I quite enjoyed it! It would be fun to hear it live. I guess there are lots of different ways to get pleasure from music.
You might like to know that the RUclips ad algorithm thought the Swan Symphony Electric Kettle was the best fit for me whilst watching your video. Maybe I'll give that a go too. I could even try getting a tune out of it.
Wait until you hear it more frequently. It doesn't age well.
It makes Grieg's symphony seem like a masterpiece!
Russia's official news agency has announced: Khachaturian was a Russian ballet composer and Armenian symphonist.
Radio Yerevan has announced: Khachaturian was an Armenian ballet composer. What's a symphonist?
Bullseye!
I have a long time infatuation with the gloriously tacky 3rd in the god-awful Stokowski/Chicago recording with the worst Russian Easter Overture. When I want to wallow in trash!!
I'm with you there, although the cuts at the end of the overture drive me crazy.
Me too!! Have waited too many years to hear this live, but now with the pandemic, may never have the opportunity. Rounding up 18 trumpeters and a virtuoso organist is no easy feat!
@@ingewb2601 It would sound so much better with fewer trumpeters.
@@ThreadBomb You're probably right. At any rate, it would much easier to program if there were fewer. I can remember a classical music commentator 30+ years ago telling me he once played in an orchestra that performed this work and in his words, they were literally scraping the bottom of the barrel to find trumpeters!
Ok, but what was the worst recording of the worst Russian symphony ever?
When the music is that bad, it doesn't matter. That said, I never discount the possibility that a performance might come along that will make me change my mind.
Mahler has bad taste? I may not know much about music, but I know Mahler to the core. And I think you're dead wrong here. Three of his symphonies are listed among the 10 greatest symphonies of all time by BBC, how can he achieve that while having bad taste? Or you don't know language, and confusing 'bad' for great? I don't know, but I'm open for an elaborate explanation.
Yes, extremely bad taste and Mahler himself said so. Before getting your back up, you should think about what that means and how it influences Mahler's aesthetics. There's a very useful lesson there for you if you are willing to learn it. Frankly, to say what you just did tells me that you don't really know Mahler at all. You may admire him, or worship him, or whatever, but you certainly do not know him.
The BBC list was actually a BBC Music Magazine list based on contributions from conductors. Mahler can be like Marmite - you love him or hate him. He said "a symphony should include the whole world" - so his ones try to, and they sprawl over an hour or more. They contain "effects" such as cowbells which might be considered to be in bad taste. Idiosyncratic works tend to do well in "best 3 works" polls, e.g. The Lark Ascending regularly tops the Classic FM Hall of Fame because all the great symphonies and concertos split the vote. The BBC top 10 didn't include Beethoven's Fifth, which tells you something. Personally I like symphonies which are tuneful but structured and succinct, so Beethoven, Haydn, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky.... I do like Mahler's orchestral songs, where he achieved unique things, some of which are mirrored in some of his symphonies.
Maybe the Symphonies of Tikhon Khrennikov have a simular lowpoint?
Yes, but he was already a nobody. It's not hard to find worse, but Khachaturian has a name. He should have known better.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Good point!
2nd the worst maybe, but the 3rd is hilarious. I could never stop giggling....though I haven't heard it for at least 30 years.
Shame on you!! I fell out of my seat I laughed so hard! Delightful!!
Your damn best review ever. By the time you slipped out the make-up, I was almost falling off my chair with laughter.
I have also always enjoyed this symphony, thinking of it as an Armenian (NOT Russian) Shostakovich 8th.
This should go into Slonimsky's Lexicon of Musical Invective.
I agree, this "symphony" is really bad. It is almost worse than heraclius djabadary piano concerto.
Don't hold back so much. Tell us what you really think.
My natural reticence always gets the better of me.
Yes ! That climax would fit pretty well in the cheesy murder scenes of say Brian de Palma 70's giallo trash... Absolutely agree on the point of the smart use of the vulgar and the grotesque in Mahler's symphonies.
His 2nd symphony is terrible but in my opinion it is a masterpiece when compared to his 3rd.
In the late 1970's, while a graduate student at the Ball State University School of Music, a Juilliard-trained semi-famous violinist was invited by Muncie Symphony to play the Khachaturian Concerto. He did a talk for the music students, at which he was incredibly condescending!
He said, "some time ago, I had the honor of playing the Khachaturian Violin Concerto with the Honolulu Symphony. Do all of you know, who Khachaturian was?"
I yelled, from the back row, "Didn't he invent CHICKEN KHACHATURIAN?"
Dave, I think that you just saved me some money today. :)
BTW, just out of curiosity, what would you consider to be the best Russian symphony?
I have no choice for "best"--there really are too many contenders.
Let me be a bit dogmatic: it's "Gayane" not "Gehnyah"!
It's whatever I say it is. No one has time for that nonsense. Go listen to music.
"Ding, dong; Avon calling!". Now I've got to go back and re-listen to this. It's probably been five decades since I've heard it. I wonder if Stalin lapped up this music (?).
Irony becomes you
Just listened to it on RUclips - wow, its really awful & thanks David for this gem.
How about a new series on "so bad its funny" pieces?
My nomination for wasting half an hour of your life would be the tone-poem Penthesilea by Hugo Wolf. A shorter hilariously bad romp would be the overture Ali Baba by Cherubini - its on RUclips conducted hell-for-leather by Toscanini. A bit off-piste I know, but the version of the William Tell overture by Spike Jones & his City Slickers might tickle your ears?
I'm sure that you (and subscribers) could come up with many more duds.
Thanks so much for your daily wisdom.
Brian
The mention of music referring to socialist ideology prods me to ask if you plan to survey recordings of Rzewski's The People United Will Never Be Defeated!
Already done.
did khachaturian write anything at length (symphonies?) worth hearing? what i have heard is loud and jumpy and goes nowhere
the adagio from spartacus is so unbelievably beautiful
edit: i have watches the whole video, the answer is no
hahahaha
Even though it turns out I have two recordings - Khachaturian and Stokowski - I can't remember the last time I might have listened to either. Since I'm of the right generation I have to believe I instantly picked up on the Avon Lady connection, though. But it couldn't have been as hilarious a moment as yours. I never claim to LOL unless I literally do it and I did.
I disagree. While I have no love for the second symphony, his third strikes an even worse standard for trashy symphonies.
Ha! No argument with the assessment of the piece - a true monster if ever there was one. But he really was Armenian, and very proudly so.
No real disagreement here (though I have to say that no.3 is even more unbearable - its comparative brevity hardly registers as a saving grace when so much of it is so infernally loud). No.1, on the other hand, is a much more interesting piece - and yet no one does it except for Loris Tjeknavorian. Go figure...........
There's an old Russian MK recording of the 1st symphony with A.Gauk conducting, and a later one conducted by Khachaturian himself. Tjeknavorian's first recording with the LSO is the best IMHO.
I took up the challenge and actually listened to this piece. There is a recording on RUclips with score (Neeme Järvi conducting). It is skillfully written and the form and development is not bad. However, the orchestration and themes are pretty repugnent! There is a smelly, ugly orientalism about it that's truly...💩 Well, certainly not My taste.
When I read the title I though this was going to be the Rachmaninoff First Symphony. Yes, you're right. This is about as bad as can come from a known composer.
Rachmaninoff's first is great, what are you on about?
Let's face it, Prokofiev 2 is right up there as well, although for a different reason. Prokofiev was undoubtedly an infinitely greater composer, but when he bit, he bit hard, as in his second symphony. I share your enthusiasm for the Khachaturian ballets, however.
I like Prokofiev's Second. Yes, some of it is deliberately obnoxious, but he knew it and audibly had a good time writing it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Prokofiev's 2nd is actually quite melodic underneath all the dissonance. In that way, it reminds me of the first couple of albums by Siouxsie and the Banshees, one of the early punk bands!
I was going to suggest Prokofiev's 7th as an example of a symphony that is "socialist realist" but that succeeds musically. I went to a Prokofiev conference in London some years ago, and I remember that Simon Morrison (who wrote The People's Artist: Prokofiev's Soviet Years) thought that it represented a waning of the composer's powers, but I find it touchingly elegiac. At any rate, like the equally undervalued 4th, it is stuffed full of beautiful melodies.
@@DavesClassicalGuide But it has no memorable ideas, and is largely noise without point. I've tried for decades to see something in it, but at this stage of my life I have to admit defeat. It simply strikes me as the aural equivalent of industrial waste. The third, however, is a different story altogether, a marvelous, demonic, and at times spooky piece.
@@simonvaughan6017 I agree.
Now I understand the purpose of this dismal symphony: to see you in „Deranged Dave“, a „Psycho“-rip off. But to be honest: „Deranged Dave“ is better played, but „Psycho“ has the better music.
And then there is russian Schnittke symphony no 1. It is possible the worst and at the same time the best music.
David Hurwitz for president! I love your humour and love for music!
I played his cello concerto last year, and it was a horrible piece of music too 🤣🤣🤣 great video!
While Khachaturian's second is indeed trash, my pick for the trashiest Russian music ever written is Sviridov's "Time Forward." Not a symphony, of course, but nevertheless.
I see your Khatchaturian's 2nd, and raise you a Shostakovich's 2nd.