Mr. Carroll, I’ve got a story for you. In the late 90’s I was living in Southern Maryland working for Pepsi out of LaPlata. Being 13 in 1986 Top Gun was obviously the movie that changed all of our lives as young men! Anyway, my entire route was Pax River. The Air Ops Tower, the new Naval Headquarters Building and even the underground catapult. But most importantly, the hangar with the DFCS Tomcat sitting directly next to my Pepsi Machine. I mean like 20 feet away. On Presidents’ Day 1997, the hangar was completely and totally deserted. The DFCS Tomcat had the canopy open and the ladder down. I may or may not have taken a seat and fulfilled a childhood dream. I most certainly would have been fired if not worse. It was worth the risk. I became a Green Beret years later, and yearned to see the Tomcat in action. But it was retired just months before I got my chance. Maybe we will meet one day and I’ll tell you the entire story!
@@dougerrohmerthe seats were probably safed and the pins were probably in. And if not, he was probably more careful getting in and out than the average guy who jumps in and out daily. And he lived to tell about it, didn’t get caught or fired, and joined the army! Thank you for your service and for keeping that Pepsi machine serviced (I️ know that machine in Hgr 201)
I was electrician. I spent many hours working on the flight control system, and the wind sweep system, and on that Turtle back with all the panels open watching the flight control rods and watching the mixer assembly, which was very fascinating. It was really a solid system, but it taught me How to troubleshoot which I still use to this day.
I agree, and I spent many hours replacing hydraulic components because electricians said they were bad, until they finally found that they had a bad component 😬
Mooch used the quintessential old man phrase - Back in our Day. It's funny, I still see a group of old guys on the porch, in thier rocking chairs, talking about the old days. The difference is the level of understanding about these issues, is way beyond the rest of us. Totally keeping me engaged the whole way.
Thank you again Mr. Carroll for the quality content, guests, and consummate attention to detail. Always a treat and wish you and your family a happy holidays!
Wow, huge task. I was a Hydraulics Mech in VF-11 84-88. Spent some extra time with Grumman learning about the AFCS both from the mechanical and computer side. I don't think at that time there was a lot of interface with the Mech's and Grumman regarding the overall flight characteristics between the two systems. Great story assembling the task, and the outcome. The Tomcat was a very complex engineering marvel for her time.
Wow! This is one of the most enjoyable episodes I have seen. In particular, I appreciated how PC could take a very complex system and make it mostly understandable by a layperson. Kudos and thank you, Mooch, Scott and PC!
WOW - FANTASTIC episode ! I was on the program side of flight testing for the F-16 back then - thoroughly enjoyed the interplay I saw among the service professionals in this domain. I wonder (and hope) you have a history person - maybe going for a PhD - to take this and other episodes to form a no-kidding history from original sources - what we wish we could have for the dinosaurs, for example.
In the late 60's and early 70's I was an Air Force AFCS Specialist on Fighters. My first assignment after Tech School was to Eglin AFB in System Command where I got to work on every fighter that the AF flew at that time. I also worked with the Manufacturer Tech Rep Engineers there and gained a lot of additional knowledge about flight controls gaining my 4th stripe (E-5). This video brought back a lot of memories to refresh my memory on AFCS systems. Great video, thank you.
Back to your Tomcat roots! Hey Scott and Paul! It’s been a while since I had the “honor” fixing PC’s lower leg restraints after he was already strapped into my backseat- so we’re almost married in some states! 🤣
Great video Mooch. I am an air force guy, but I have always admired the F14 and everyone who have flown it. I still think the Navy made a mistake when they divested themselves of the F14. Perhaps one of the worst mistakes our military has made of shutting down a weapons platform. Now the air force is in the process of making a similar mistake with the A10. Both aircraft have no comparison tto each other or in the skies. No other aircraft has had then or now. The F14 was so beautiful, and right as they get all the early kinks worked out, they just up and say bye-bye. But the F14 lives on. Its in the heart and soul of all of you flew it, maintained it, built it, and those of us who never had that experience. This video had me going back looking on my computer of all the pictures and video of planes. I was surprised to see that I have more pictures and video of the F14 than any other. Have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year Mooch.
I'm so happy the conversation finally turned to the maintainers. I got to thinking how badass it would be to have served in the VX-23 PP shop, then in the Fighter community after the engine swap to the GE. I served in the Prowler community up at Whidbey and made 3 Med floats from 79-82 dealing with the really unresponsive J52. Per our pilots, the EA-6B was quite a handful to get back aboard the ship as well. Many great memories and still friends to this day are some of our squadron mates from that time frame. Great video again CDR Mooch and thank you for another fantastic and informative episode. Keep them coming.
I did not know most of that info when I lost my right engine on a cat shot fully loaded. But what I did know was do not use lateral stick to correct a rolling yaw when yawing at low airspeed. I was flying an A model
@ very good. It is a Martin Baker seat. Also used in the F-18 and F 35 at least in the Navy version of it. James Holgerson, who also was one of the engineers that worked on the seat worked and designed HR scope so that when the seat came out, it would make sure it would write itself up before deploying a shoot.
Ward, the video you showed of the F-14 in a flat spin was a test flight at Pax by CDR D. D. Smith, Chief Test Pilot at NATC, in the late 1970s. He describes the event in his book "Above Average, Naval Aviation the Hard Way." He was our speaker at the A-4 Skyhawk Association luncheon at Hook 23. Pleasure to meet him.
I purchased the F14 in DCS to fly in VR. I made it about 30 seconds before I was in a flat spin. I laughed and said it had to be a joke from the developers.
Interesting. I have a lot of hours in the DCS F-14A (and less in the B) and I don't think I've put it in a spin even once. 🤔 (not boasting, I just don't think I've done it and I don't think I'm more than an average sim-pilot).
@@Akm72then you haven't pushed her far enough 😉 once you get close to the limit at higher altitudes you'll get into situations where you feel her starting to depart.
I love flying the f14 now. Its so raw, and challenging. But yes ive been in a few spins, maybe recovered 1 or 2. I could only imagine how impossible it would be with those G's @Akm72
My 1st flat spin in the DCS F-14 was during a dog fight against a MiG-21, I went vertical, lost too much speed while just past vertical and rolling to keep my lift vector just behind the MiG's tail. Then the wing dropped and the nose went sideways and splat
I remember these days... I was stationed at Deep Submergence Unit in San Diego when Lt. Hultgreen's tomcat went down off the coast. We were tasked with recovering the F-14 and also ended up locating and recovering the Lt's remains. I'm glad that we could give the family some closure and the Navy the opportunity to look over the fighter. The plane sat at NAS North Island's DRMO back lot for a long time after we recovered it and the investigation was complete.
I was an AMH (Aviation Structure Mechanic-Hydraulics) in SATS (Strike Aircraft Test Squadron) in PAX River Maryland working on the DFCS systems and AC 230 and AC 231 were the 2 DFCS aircraft, I believe in 1994 to 1997. We worked with the Civilian Engineers. One thing in particular the Flight Control rigging had to be very close to perfect stick to stabs. Cavanaugh was the Grumman test pilot at that time and later before I left Lt. Claffy arrived to be a test pilort (a pilot I worked with in a prior command VF-32).
Great show Mooch, Interesting march to the future we take for granted. What a great Jet the F14 was. We all would have loved to see the F14 with the glass cockpit of today. Thanks for the History lesson. God bless you all.
At 34:20 you're describing exactly what the F-15 was built with. An analog mixing unit (CSBPC) coupled with a three axis digital series input (CAS) to the actuators. Good stuff guys. Thank you!
DFCS was pretty sweet, particularly behind the boat. The gouge used to be to roll out on the left edge-line and the jet would sort of "slime" it's way over to centerline. Fist time with DFCS, rolled out on the left edge line and -pow- you were lined up on the left edge line. For BFM it was mostly better but there were a few times where you could attempt a maneuver (pirouette or "corkscrew") and trip anti-spin logic. The maneuver was high AOA and slow, stuff the stick to get air over the tails, full rudder + about 1/2 opposite stick. Once the yaw starts, full aft stick. If done correctly the jet would swap ends in about 2-3 seconds. With AFCS you might trip a momentary spin arrow, but with DFCS the jet would just counter the yaw and stop. Overall the jet was far better with it (wing rock suppression was pretty sweet also).
I really enjoy your in depth long form video's, the shorter concise one's are good too, they're straight to the point. Always good to see semi-regular of your show Astronaut Kelly back!
Ward, what a great interview. It's a testament to you and your guests that questions that naturally come to me as a viewer when certain topics are discussed are promptly brought up and answered. Technical enough to be extremely interesting but also you have a great understanding of what information we layman might need to be clarified or expanded on.
Mooch, really great episode! I got to the F-14 RAG in early 2000 and started out in the A but switched to the B halfway through the syllabus. I only ever flew the DFCS version and the conversions had just wrapped up. It was very interesting to hear about the beta dot feedback being so critical. That exact same input helped cure a very dangerous and somewhat unrecoverable departure mode the F-18 was plagued with called “falling leaf”. Once they modified the F-18 to our 10.7 flight control software incorporating beta dot feedback the jet was almost impossible to depart with symmetrical loading and we never had another falling leaf in the community. They actually removed it from NATOPS and allowed the spin recovery switch cover in the Rhino to be safety wired closed.
Great segment Mooch, thanks to Scott and PC....sure wish I would have had the opportunity to fly the system....sounds like it was the much needed fix....cheers v/r Munch.....
Commander, wow, and well done! What a great program! The F-14 was a tough bird to fly. It took a lot of skill and intense concentration. Your 15-year survival flying that plane was quite an achievement. The Kelly family is incredible for all their achievements.
This was a most interesting interview. Thank you gentlemen for all the work that was done on the F-14 to make it safer for those flying it and thank you, Ward, for the great questions of Paul and Scott to tease out the details that made the system work as planned.
@@JSFGuy What was never explained - in Topgun Maverick - as Mav and Charlie were madly in love/lust with each other, what happened to her. There wasn't even a mention of her in TG Mav.
Ward, thanks. One of the best episodes of any channel about NAVAIR. Your two guests were absolutely excellent. I hope there is talent like they have still in the Navy and industry keeping America safe
Not sure how Carroll get this people to be on his RUclips videos, but his doing a hell of a job … best interviews and news on RUclips if you’re interested in the world events.
CAPT Kelly, thanks for recounting the story of sitting in the airplane during EMI testing; it brought up some pleasant memories for me. My first job as a newly minted EE was working as an EMC/EMI engineer for Lockheed. As EMI guys we typically get a lot of side-eye from Mechanical Engineers who often pretend not to understand what we do. When I got on the job my cubicle was right in the middle of a bunch of ME's. When I came in the door in the morning I faced some good natured teasing from them with remarks like, "Here comes the Wizard," and "Hey, John, where's your hat ... the one with the stars and moons on it?" I thought it was great fun. 😁
I worked two tours at AIMD Oceana and many hours repairing those analog Pitch, Roll, and Yaw Computers. The worse part of repairing those things was when the power supply modules would go. They had three transformers (if I remember correctly) that would just melt, and the entire unit would be full of transformer goo. That stench of burn't transformer when we would open them up. Memories!!!!!
WOW, awesome detailed analysis and history lesson on the development of this amazing aircraft. The engineering analysis was a great add to the conversation.
Mooch, I recently watched a documentary on the F14. I was surprised to learn that the F14 was capable of firing six phoenix missiles on six targets simultaneously. Did you ever experience that as the RIO. Would love to see a video on the full weapons capability of the F14. I am not a pilot, just an enthusiast. Respectfully Always Faithful, Always Forward Aaron Beaulieu
Man that shot of the F14’s spine with all the access covers off was impressive!!! I know more can be accomplished with digital flight control systems but those older analog systems were a beautiful mechanical work of art! 👏 (Way cooler to look at than a bunch of black boxes wired to servos…)
What a treat to get another conversation delving deep under the skin of the legendary F14 and its story. Fascinating to hear the straight dope, and hope we can have more like this and with these guests, just tremendous.
Incredible video, I'm blown away by the detail and background stories! I wish my small country of Sweden could make such videos, we (SAAB primarily) have after all made a lot of good airplanes, like Draken, Viggen and now the Gripen. If any Swedish viewer know about such videos, please tell me. The story about intercepting the SR-71 in Viggen was great, as one example I found.
I was on the Stennis for the last west coast cruise for the F-14. As an I-level AT, I was glad to see them go. It was pain just to get the gear to my shop.
I'm a retired corporate jet pilot with a degree in aeronautical engineering, and after hearing P.C. describe the the control coupling modes with resulting adverse yaw and propensity to flat spin, my head was swimming. Adverse yaw is a well known phenomenon from the earliest days of aircraft design, but it sounds like the original control design on the F-14 was a hot mess. I wonder what the philosophy of having the elevons control roll in the first place instead of ailerons and wing spoilers. More roll authority when the wings were swept at high speed? Probably too much inertia for ailerons/spoilers to effect a decent roll rate. When the F-14 first came out, I thought the airplane was really cool; but in retrospect, my opinion of the airplane is that it was just too big (for shipboard ops), too heavy, too complex, and just too much of everything; but it was quite the star in Top Gun.
keep in mind the F-14 was primarily designed to haul 6 Phoenix missiles rapidly into position to protect the fleet against airborne threats. developments to improve it as a Fighter jet came later as its weaknesses were explored in the real world
Fascinating video! Every time you hear more of the rich and complex history of the F-14 there is always an impressive collection of people involved. I am wondering about a few things. It was my understanding that Grumman, early on, wanted to do a true fly by wire system for the F-14. Grumman had experience with these in the Apollo Program and their entry in the Shuttle Orbiter program. Cuts to the engines, ECM, AWG-9, and other parts of the program early on pretty much assured there would be no fly by wire development for the F-14. Could that investment from the start have saved the loss of aviators and aircraft? I have heard Slammer Richardson discuss the DFCS changes, and he credited the system with allowing him to fly very precise maneuvers but he also said he lamented the loss of rudder authority in certain flight conditions. Overall he was very positive about the changes, I wonder if some refinement could have improved what Slammer was talking about. Maybe that would have happened had the Tomcat continued in service. I also remember Hoser Satrapa saying he would cross control the plane to induce a spin, then he would swing the wings back. This changed the center if gravity, stopping the spin and allowing the nose to drop so the plane could fly again. Apparently Hoser did this a number of times, and raised some eyebrows doing so. But then again I suppose a lot Hoser did raised eyebrows. Would this have been a viable procedure for recovery given sufficient altitude? Thanks for the video.
Hello to Paul Conigliaro, and for the great association we had in Grumman on multiple most-interesting flight test projects through our connection with Paul as Flight Test engineer and myself as Instrumentation engineer in Grumman's Flight Test Department.
AIMD Hyd shop, (VF-213) Miramar, '77. I became an really good at overhauling and testing the AICS and spoiler actuators--They were the most sophisticated hyd components we had ever seen, like the advancement skipped 3 generations just for the F-14! It took 2 days to run one thru the battery of tests.
Did you, Ward, notice these changes in flight envelopes from the backseat (i.e. your head was steadier when making inputs in your weapons systems while the pilot was yanking and banking)? Loved the brain picking session; it brings understanding to why things happened/didn’t happen. Thanks! And Merry Christmas/ Happy Holidays!
Thank you for this Ward. The mechanical controls from the sixties, modified by some digital control. The F14 had some bad habits apparently. Ward has covered this a couple of times, via some very qualified guests. Again thanks. God bless Kara Hultgreen.
Greetings Ward. Not many people have delved into the Aleutian Islands campaign in Alaska during ww2. There was some interesting ground combat and air support involved. Just throwing it out there to cover it one day? Love your stuff keep it up.
So it only had 6 years with DCS. It really seems like the Tomcat wasn’t finished fully maturing when it was retired. I really like your Tomcat ST21 video. One can only imagine what a fully fly-by-wire “EX-ized” Tomcat would be like.
Point Mugu wasn't just OT, it was DT, specifically all weapons and software integration. All new aircraft Operational Flight Program (OFP) software was developed and tested at Mugu. Pax river did FQ&P, stores-sep etc (basic aircraft stuff). Pax river shut down F-14 stuff around 2001-2002, Point Mugu kept going until 2004ish.
@@WardCarroll Philly is hosting the 250th Anniversary of the US Navy and Marine Corps. There are supposed to be ships in Philly and Navy, Marine and Coast Guard Aircraft. They word is they are trying to get the Blues onboard as well.
Remembering back to my FRAMP classes and watching the flat spin with an automatic recovery, my thought is that when the ejection sequence is initiated, the canopy leaves and initiates the seats, in the meantime SMDC lines fire to the radar and the stabilizer trim drives full nose down. The loss of weight from the canopy and seats with aircrew would make the center of gravity move aft causing the nose to raise. While I was stationed at Miramar, a Tomcat from VF-124 suffered a hydraulic failure out over the ocean and attempted a return to Miramar. Over the East County, the aircraft departed, and the aircrew ejected, the aircraft stabilized inverted. With the loss of weight in the nose and the trim now being nose up, the aircraft flew across the town it was over and crashed onto the airport. I wonder if the seats firing would have that much impulse to force the nose down and break the stall.
Sometime back int the 70's I worked on putting the SMAL inertial nav software in the F14a (it used the ASN-92 Litton inertial system). The alignment software was in the AWG9 and was only run on ground or on the carrier deck, while the inertial navigation software ran all the time in the CSDC computer and was the software I did. At one point we were asked about putting in a flat spin test that would automatically trigger the ejection seats! While we could easily do this, it gave me nightmares about inadvertent triggering the ejection! It was never implemented, thank goodness! My navy contact during this period was an F14 RIO named Lt Jim Piel (I probably have the spelling wrong). I spent a lot of time at Pt. Magu during this period. I also spent a lot of time in the RIO seat while on the deck of an aircraft carrier while testing the the Carrier alignment software.
I am not at all surprised that Scott has no trouble remembering the trim working in reverse the day before the first flight. Right stuff indeed, I would still be running.
I was in Biloxi and watching the f 16 take off and go straight up quite a ways when he shut off the thrust and was coming down backwards he rocked that plane until he was coming straight down then not far off the ground had some wicked power and pulled it up there wasn’t any one around but me
Many of those bad behaviors I experienced in a Piper Cub. Using rudder was not optional in that plane. If you only used stick to roll, the Cub just mushed into a bank with severe adverse yaw and didn't want to turn. And my flight instructor as a student in a C152 taught me to only use rudder at high angle of attack. We practiced this ad nauseum. It's a shame some F-14 pilots didn't experience this often enough to be proficient at doing unintuitive control inputs and prevent the bad behaviors.
With the flatspin video, after ejection, you loose over 700 pounds in the nose not counting the canopy. This greatly changes the nose weight which also helped the plane recover.
Mr. Carroll, I’ve got a story for you. In the late 90’s I was living in Southern Maryland working for Pepsi out of LaPlata. Being 13 in 1986 Top Gun was obviously the movie that changed all of our lives as young men! Anyway, my entire route was Pax River. The Air Ops Tower, the new Naval Headquarters Building and even the underground catapult. But most importantly, the hangar with the DFCS Tomcat sitting directly next to my Pepsi Machine. I mean like 20 feet away. On Presidents’ Day 1997, the hangar was completely and totally deserted. The DFCS Tomcat had the canopy open and the ladder down. I may or may not have taken a seat and fulfilled a childhood dream. I most certainly would have been fired if not worse. It was worth the risk. I became a Green Beret years later, and yearned to see the Tomcat in action. But it was retired just months before I got my chance. Maybe we will meet one day and I’ll tell you the entire story!
Tom cat tease
Ejection seat safety qualifications??? Who needs those as a civilian...
@@michaelchristensen5421 Pfffft! The safety pins were in. They WERE in, weren't they? 🤣
@@dougerrohmerthe seats were probably safed and the pins were probably in. And if not, he was probably more careful getting in and out than the average guy who jumps in and out daily. And he lived to tell about it, didn’t get caught or fired, and joined the army! Thank you for your service and for keeping that Pepsi machine serviced (I️ know that machine in Hgr 201)
I saw you get in my airplane, but I didn't say anything.
I was electrician. I spent many hours working on the flight control system, and the wind sweep system, and on that Turtle back with all the panels open watching the flight control rods and watching the mixer assembly, which was very fascinating. It was really a solid system, but it taught me How to troubleshoot which I still use to this day.
I agree, and I spent many hours replacing hydraulic components because electricians said they were bad, until they finally found that they had a bad component 😬
Mooch used the quintessential old man phrase - Back in our Day. It's funny, I still see a group of old guys on the porch, in thier rocking chairs, talking about the old days.
The difference is the level of understanding about these issues, is way beyond the rest of us.
Totally keeping me engaged the whole way.
I now know more about the Tomcat FCS than I do about my own car's steering.
Thank you again Mr. Carroll for the quality content, guests, and consummate attention to detail.
Always a treat and wish you and your family a happy holidays!
Ward. Always bringing the top guys to chat. Thanks again for the best interviews. Take care, fly right.
Wow, huge task. I was a Hydraulics Mech in VF-11 84-88. Spent some extra time with Grumman learning about the AFCS both from the mechanical and computer side. I don't think at that time there was a lot of interface with the Mech's and Grumman regarding the overall flight characteristics between the two systems. Great story assembling the task, and the outcome. The Tomcat was a very complex engineering marvel for her time.
Wow! This is one of the most enjoyable episodes I have seen. In particular, I appreciated how PC could take a very complex system and make it mostly understandable by a layperson. Kudos and thank you, Mooch, Scott and PC!
WOW - FANTASTIC episode ! I was on the program side of flight testing for the F-16 back then - thoroughly enjoyed the interplay I saw among the service professionals in this domain. I wonder (and hope) you have a history person - maybe going for a PhD - to take this and other episodes to form a no-kidding history from original sources - what we wish we could have for the dinosaurs, for example.
In the late 60's and early 70's I was an Air Force AFCS Specialist on Fighters. My first assignment after Tech School was to Eglin AFB in System Command where I got to work on every fighter that the AF flew at that time. I also worked with the Manufacturer Tech Rep Engineers there and gained a lot of additional knowledge about flight controls gaining my 4th stripe (E-5). This video brought back a lot of memories to refresh my memory on AFCS systems. Great video, thank you.
As a former F-14 AE I still have my pocket copy of the DFCS fault code book. Was an awesome tool identifying failures and where to start looking.
Aviation Everything, I was an AE as well.
"getting deep into the control laws" is great, for me! Thanks to you guys for a really "meaty" video!
Back to your Tomcat roots!
Hey Scott and Paul!
It’s been a while since I had the “honor” fixing PC’s lower leg restraints after he was already strapped into my backseat- so we’re almost married in some states! 🤣
Great video Mooch. I am an air force guy, but I have always admired the F14 and everyone who have flown it. I still think the Navy made a mistake when they divested themselves of the F14. Perhaps one of the worst mistakes our military has made of shutting down a weapons platform. Now the air force is in the process of making a similar mistake with the A10. Both aircraft have no comparison tto each other or in the skies. No other aircraft has had then or now. The F14 was so beautiful, and right as they get all the early kinks worked out, they just up and say bye-bye. But the F14 lives on. Its in the heart and soul of all of you flew it, maintained it, built it, and those of us who never had that experience. This video had me going back looking on my computer of all the pictures and video of planes. I was surprised to see that I have more pictures and video of the F14 than any other. Have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year Mooch.
I'm so happy the conversation finally turned to the maintainers. I got to thinking how badass it would be to have served in the VX-23 PP shop, then in the Fighter community after the engine swap to the GE. I served in the Prowler community up at Whidbey and made 3 Med floats from 79-82 dealing with the really unresponsive J52. Per our pilots, the EA-6B was quite a handful to get back aboard the ship as well. Many great memories and still friends to this day are some of our squadron mates from that time frame. Great video again CDR Mooch and thank you for another fantastic and informative episode. Keep them coming.
I did not know most of that info when I lost my right engine on a cat shot fully loaded. But what I did know was do not use lateral stick to correct a rolling yaw when yawing at low airspeed. I was flying an A model
You are alive, so Master Jettison worked and you are a 'good stick'.
We have the Man that designed the ejection seat for the F-14 in our church, and it is interesting to hear him talk about this aircraft
Isn’t it a Martin Baker seat?
@ very good. It is a Martin Baker seat. Also used in the F-18 and F 35 at least in the Navy version of it. James Holgerson, who also was one of the engineers that worked on the seat worked and designed HR scope so that when the seat came out, it would make sure it would write itself up before deploying a shoot.
Ward, the video you showed of the F-14 in a flat spin was a test flight at Pax by CDR D. D. Smith, Chief Test Pilot at NATC, in the late 1970s. He describes the event in his book "Above Average, Naval Aviation the Hard Way." He was our speaker at the A-4 Skyhawk Association luncheon at Hook 23. Pleasure to meet him.
I purchased the F14 in DCS to fly in VR. I made it about 30 seconds before I was in a flat spin. I laughed and said it had to be a joke from the developers.
Interesting. I have a lot of hours in the DCS F-14A (and less in the B) and I don't think I've put it in a spin even once. 🤔 (not boasting, I just don't think I've done it and I don't think I'm more than an average sim-pilot).
@@Akm72then you haven't pushed her far enough 😉 once you get close to the limit at higher altitudes you'll get into situations where you feel her starting to depart.
@@dannyd7714 Fair enough 😄
I love flying the f14 now. Its so raw, and challenging. But yes ive been in a few spins, maybe recovered 1 or 2. I could only imagine how impossible it would be with those G's @Akm72
My 1st flat spin in the DCS F-14 was during a dog fight against a MiG-21, I went vertical, lost too much speed while just past vertical and rolling to keep my lift vector just behind the MiG's tail. Then the wing dropped and the nose went sideways and splat
I remember these days... I was stationed at Deep Submergence Unit in San Diego when Lt. Hultgreen's tomcat went down off the coast. We were tasked with recovering the F-14 and also ended up locating and recovering the Lt's remains. I'm glad that we could give the family some closure and the Navy the opportunity to look over the fighter. The plane sat at NAS North Island's DRMO back lot for a long time after we recovered it and the investigation was complete.
I was an AMH (Aviation Structure Mechanic-Hydraulics) in SATS (Strike Aircraft Test Squadron) in PAX River Maryland working on the DFCS systems and AC 230 and AC 231 were the 2 DFCS aircraft, I believe in 1994 to 1997. We worked with the Civilian Engineers. One thing in particular the Flight Control rigging had to be very close to perfect stick to stabs. Cavanaugh was the Grumman test pilot at that time and later before I left Lt. Claffy arrived to be a test pilort (a pilot I worked with in a prior command VF-32).
Great show Mooch, Interesting march to the future we take for granted.
What a great Jet the F14 was. We all would have loved to see the F14 with the glass cockpit of today.
Thanks for the History lesson. God bless you all.
At 34:20 you're describing exactly what the F-15 was built with. An analog mixing unit (CSBPC) coupled with a three axis digital series input (CAS) to the actuators.
Good stuff guys. Thank you!
DFCS was pretty sweet, particularly behind the boat. The gouge used to be to roll out on the left edge-line and the jet would sort of "slime" it's way over to centerline. Fist time with DFCS, rolled out on the left edge line and -pow- you were lined up on the left edge line. For BFM it was mostly better but there were a few times where you could attempt a maneuver (pirouette or "corkscrew") and trip anti-spin logic. The maneuver was high AOA and slow, stuff the stick to get air over the tails, full rudder + about 1/2 opposite stick. Once the yaw starts, full aft stick. If done correctly the jet would swap ends in about 2-3 seconds. With AFCS you might trip a momentary spin arrow, but with DFCS the jet would just counter the yaw and stop. Overall the jet was far better with it (wing rock suppression was pretty sweet also).
Never a dull video on Mooch's channel!!
Great episode!
These are incredible machines that require superhuman abilities. Thank you!
I really enjoy your in depth long form video's, the shorter concise one's are good too, they're straight to the point. Always good to see semi-regular of your show Astronaut Kelly back!
Ex Flight systems tech; terms like ARI, control laws, coupling, etc this episode was right up my street. Superb.
Ward, what a great interview. It's a testament to you and your guests that questions that naturally come to me as a viewer when certain topics are discussed are promptly brought up and answered. Technical enough to be extremely interesting but also you have a great understanding of what information we layman might need to be clarified or expanded on.
Mooch, really great episode! I got to the F-14 RAG in early 2000 and started out in the A but switched to the B halfway through the syllabus. I only ever flew the DFCS version and the conversions had just wrapped up. It was very interesting to hear about the beta dot feedback being so critical. That exact same input helped cure a very dangerous and somewhat unrecoverable departure mode the F-18 was plagued with called “falling leaf”. Once they modified the F-18 to our 10.7 flight control software incorporating beta dot feedback the jet was almost impossible to depart with symmetrical loading and we never had another falling leaf in the community. They actually removed it from NATOPS and allowed the spin recovery switch cover in the Rhino to be safety wired closed.
Great segment Mooch, thanks to Scott and PC....sure wish I would have had the opportunity to fly the system....sounds like it was the much needed fix....cheers v/r Munch.....
Thanks, Munch!
Commander, wow, and well done! What a great program! The F-14 was a tough bird to fly. It took a lot of skill and intense concentration. Your 15-year survival flying that plane was quite an achievement. The Kelly family is incredible for all their achievements.
This was a most interesting interview. Thank you gentlemen for all the work that was done on the F-14 to make it safer for those flying it and thank you, Ward, for the great questions of Paul and Scott to tease out the details that made the system work as planned.
It's a shame that 'Maverick' and 'Goose' didn't have the mod! 🙂
@@hamshackleton would have changed the plot haha That was a crappy A model with the TF30 garbage motors in it.
@@JSFGuy What was never explained - in Topgun Maverick - as Mav and Charlie were madly in love/lust with each other, what happened to her. There wasn't even a mention of her in TG Mav.
@@hamshackleton Right, that was just another temporary affair in the market.
@@hamshackletonTom Cruise did not like Kelly McGillis at all! You have clearance, you can read about it
Ward, thanks. One of the best episodes of any channel about NAVAIR. Your two guests were absolutely excellent. I hope there is talent like they have still in the Navy and industry keeping America safe
Not sure how Carroll get this people to be on his RUclips videos, but his doing a hell of a job … best interviews and news on RUclips if you’re interested in the world events.
‘….. the F-14 was probably the hardest airplane ever to land on the ship’.
The F7U Cutlass would like to enter the conversation.
RA-5C enters the chat...
There has to be a Viggie/Tomcat pilot that can answer this question. I don’t believe nuggets were allowed to fly the RA-5.
So would the Mosquito :)
Cutlass along with other planes from that era got a bad rap because of jet engine technology. I agree with your comment.
These are the best videos on youtube imo
would sweeping the wings back during a flat spin help drop the nose? or was that not ever to be done?
CAPT Kelly, thanks for recounting the story of sitting in the airplane during EMI testing; it brought up some pleasant memories for me. My first job as a newly minted EE was working as an EMC/EMI engineer for Lockheed. As EMI guys we typically get a lot of side-eye from Mechanical Engineers who often pretend not to understand what we do. When I got on the job my cubicle was right in the middle of a bunch of ME's. When I came in the door in the morning I faced some good natured teasing from them with remarks like, "Here comes the Wizard," and "Hey, John, where's your hat ... the one with the stars and moons on it?" I thought it was great fun. 😁
I worked two tours at AIMD Oceana and many hours repairing those analog Pitch, Roll, and Yaw Computers. The worse part of repairing those things was when the power supply modules would go. They had three transformers (if I remember correctly) that would just melt, and the entire unit would be full of transformer goo. That stench of burn't transformer when we would open them up. Memories!!!!!
Greetings fellow F-14 Flight Test Engineer. (Ordnance Systems at Strike Aircraft Directorate)!!!
WOW, awesome detailed analysis and history lesson on the development of this amazing aircraft. The engineering analysis was a great add to the conversation.
Mooch, I recently watched a documentary on the F14. I was surprised to learn that the F14 was capable of firing six phoenix missiles on six targets simultaneously. Did you ever experience that as the RIO. Would love to see a video on the full weapons capability of the F14. I am not a pilot, just an enthusiast. Respectfully Always Faithful, Always Forward
Aaron Beaulieu
Never carried six at once. Fired three in exercises. Always a rush.
Man that shot of the F14’s spine with all the access covers off was impressive!!! I know more can be accomplished with digital flight control systems but those older analog systems were a beautiful mechanical work of art! 👏 (Way cooler to look at than a bunch of black boxes wired to servos…)
Superior content sir! You guys are all at such a high level.
What a treat to get another conversation delving deep under the skin of the legendary F14 and its story. Fascinating to hear the straight dope, and hope we can have more like this and with these guests, just tremendous.
Excellent video! Well done, great to see experts input also!
This was fascinating! Great interview. What a tremendous improvement to safety.
Wow if only it could have been installed from the beginning. What a difference. Thanks Mooch great info as always. 👍🇺🇸
Incredible video, I'm blown away by the detail and background stories! I wish my small country of Sweden could make such videos, we (SAAB primarily) have after all made a lot of good airplanes, like Draken, Viggen and now the Gripen. If any Swedish viewer know about such videos, please tell me. The story about intercepting the SR-71 in Viggen was great, as one example I found.
I was on the Stennis for the last west coast cruise for the F-14. As an I-level AT, I was glad to see them go. It was pain just to get the gear to my shop.
I'm a retired corporate jet pilot with a degree in aeronautical engineering, and after hearing P.C. describe the the control coupling modes with resulting adverse yaw and propensity to flat spin, my head was swimming. Adverse yaw is a well known phenomenon from the earliest days of aircraft design, but it sounds like the original control design on the F-14 was a hot mess. I wonder what the philosophy of having the elevons control roll in the first place instead of ailerons and wing spoilers. More roll authority when the wings were swept at high speed? Probably too much inertia for ailerons/spoilers to effect a decent roll rate. When the F-14 first came out, I thought the airplane was really cool; but in retrospect, my opinion of the airplane is that it was just too big (for shipboard ops), too heavy, too complex, and just too much of everything; but it was quite the star in Top Gun.
keep in mind the F-14 was primarily designed to haul 6 Phoenix missiles rapidly into position to protect the fleet against airborne threats. developments to improve it as a Fighter jet came later as its weaknesses were explored in the real world
Fascinating video! Every time you hear more of the rich and complex history of the F-14 there is always an impressive collection of people involved.
I am wondering about a few things. It was my understanding that Grumman, early on, wanted to do a true fly by wire system for the F-14. Grumman had experience with these in the Apollo Program and their entry in the Shuttle Orbiter program. Cuts to the engines, ECM, AWG-9, and other parts of the program early on pretty much assured there would be no fly by wire development for the F-14. Could that investment from the start have saved the loss of aviators and aircraft?
I have heard Slammer Richardson discuss the DFCS changes, and he credited the system with allowing him to fly very precise maneuvers but he also said he lamented the loss of rudder authority in certain flight conditions. Overall he was very positive about the changes, I wonder if some refinement could have improved what Slammer was talking about. Maybe that would have happened had the Tomcat continued in service.
I also remember Hoser Satrapa saying he would cross control the plane to induce a spin, then he would swing the wings back. This changed the center if gravity, stopping the spin and allowing the nose to drop so the plane could fly again. Apparently Hoser did this a number of times, and raised some eyebrows doing so. But then again I suppose a lot Hoser did raised eyebrows. Would this have been a viable procedure for recovery given sufficient altitude?
Thanks for the video.
Hello to Paul Conigliaro, and for the great association we had in Grumman on multiple most-interesting flight test projects through our connection with Paul as Flight Test engineer and myself as Instrumentation engineer in Grumman's Flight Test Department.
AIMD Hyd shop, (VF-213) Miramar, '77. I became an really good at overhauling and testing the AICS and spoiler actuators--They were the most sophisticated hyd components we had ever seen, like the advancement skipped 3 generations just for the F-14! It took 2 days to run one thru the battery of tests.
Did you, Ward, notice these changes in flight envelopes from the backseat (i.e. your head was steadier when making inputs in your weapons systems while the pilot was yanking and banking)?
Loved the brain picking session; it brings understanding to why things happened/didn’t happen. Thanks! And Merry Christmas/ Happy Holidays!
Never flew with DFCS.
GEC-Marconi was the British company that made the system
Fascinating discussion. I am always amazed at the careers of the people you interview. Such exceptional careers!
Good stuff; “Schools Out” I guess. Beat Army 😊
Thank you for this Ward. The mechanical controls from the sixties, modified by some digital control. The F14 had some bad habits apparently. Ward has covered this a couple of times, via some very qualified guests. Again thanks. God bless Kara Hultgreen.
FaFabtastic, greatly appreciate you recording this for all to see.
Greetings Ward. Not many people have delved into the Aleutian Islands campaign in Alaska during ww2. There was some interesting ground combat and air support involved. Just throwing it out there to cover it one day? Love your stuff keep it up.
So it only had 6 years with DCS. It really seems like the Tomcat wasn’t finished fully maturing when it was retired. I really like your Tomcat ST21 video. One can only imagine what a fully fly-by-wire “EX-ized” Tomcat would be like.
Point Mugu wasn't just OT, it was DT, specifically all weapons and software integration. All new aircraft Operational Flight Program (OFP) software was developed and tested at Mugu. Pax river did FQ&P, stores-sep etc (basic aircraft stuff). Pax river shut down F-14 stuff around 2001-2002, Point Mugu kept going until 2004ish.
Hope to see you in Philly next year Mooch!! ⚓
Army-Navy game in Baltimore next year. I'll be there.
@@WardCarroll it's sacrilegious. The game should be in Philly.
@@WardCarroll Philly is hosting the 250th Anniversary of the US Navy and Marine Corps. There are supposed to be ships in Philly and Navy, Marine and Coast Guard Aircraft. They word is they are trying to get the Blues onboard as well.
Great stuff Ward thanks.
Seasons greetings and bleatings to you all who avidly watch your great channel 🤘😎🎄🕊🇫🇴
Very, very interesting video. Thanks for making this.
Superb content, utterly fascinating. Thank you.
A "wonky" but very informative video about an aspect of military aviation that most folks know nothing about - how to "fly safe!"
Excellent presentation, just goes to show how you can improve an already pretty good aircraft.
I love this channel. And I genuinely appreciate the level of knowledge and expertise the host and his guests always have. Top notch content.
Awesome content! You should do some of the spin/stall scenarios in your DCS simulator rig
@WardCarrol Glad to see the bombcat and Strike Ordinance get a mention :-)
6:59 Whose crash video is that? Is it Lt. Hultgreens crash?
Yes that’s footage of the crash.
@enclavex69 what's your source?
Yes.
Remembering back to my FRAMP classes and watching the flat spin with an automatic recovery, my thought is that when the ejection sequence is initiated, the canopy leaves and initiates the seats, in the meantime SMDC lines fire to the radar and the stabilizer trim drives full nose down. The loss of weight from the canopy and seats with aircrew would make the center of gravity move aft causing the nose to raise. While I was stationed at Miramar, a Tomcat from VF-124 suffered a hydraulic failure out over the ocean and attempted a return to Miramar. Over the East County, the aircraft departed, and the aircrew ejected, the aircraft stabilized inverted. With the loss of weight in the nose and the trim now being nose up, the aircraft flew across the town it was over and crashed onto the airport. I wonder if the seats firing would have that much impulse to force the nose down and break the stall.
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
Been watching your channel since day dot...Best ever!
Outstanding podcast, thanks.
War machines are still machines; amazing feats of engineering. Always appreciate topics that dive into the development of these systems.
Great program!
Sometime back int the 70's I worked on putting the SMAL inertial nav software in the F14a (it used the ASN-92 Litton inertial system). The alignment software was in the AWG9 and was only run on ground or on the carrier deck, while the inertial navigation software ran all the time in the CSDC computer and was the software I did. At one point we were asked about putting in a flat spin test that would automatically trigger the ejection seats! While we could easily do this, it gave me nightmares about inadvertent triggering the ejection! It was never implemented, thank goodness! My navy contact during this period was an F14 RIO named Lt Jim Piel (I probably have the spelling wrong). I spent a lot of time at Pt. Magu during this period. I also spent a lot of time in the RIO seat while on the deck of an aircraft carrier while testing the the Carrier alignment software.
Mooch, you have ACTUAL bonafide astronauts as buddies! That's pretty awesome 😎
Very watchable. Thanks for sharing 👍
super interesting discussion thank you Mooch
Learned a lot on this video 👍🏽
This was fascinating - on many levels. Thank you!
Another wow episode Mooch!
I am not at all surprised that Scott has no trouble remembering the trim working in reverse the day before the first flight. Right stuff indeed, I would still be running.
I was in Biloxi and watching the f 16 take off and go straight up quite a ways when he shut off the thrust and was coming down backwards he rocked that plane until he was coming straight down then not far off the ground had some wicked power and pulled it up there wasn’t any one around but me
Great episode.
That was a very interesting discussion. Thanks
Many of those bad behaviors I experienced in a Piper Cub. Using rudder was not optional in that plane. If you only used stick to roll, the Cub just mushed into a bank with severe adverse yaw and didn't want to turn. And my flight instructor as a student in a C152 taught me to only use rudder at high angle of attack. We practiced this ad nauseum. It's a shame some F-14 pilots didn't experience this often enough to be proficient at doing unintuitive control inputs and prevent the bad behaviors.
Flying a Tomcat is a bit more dynamic than flying a Piper Cub, to put it mildly.
Please do a segment on the AWG-9 BIT book, flycatchers and the green NATOPS.
I always loved the geochron clocks, classy and fun.
I greatly admire Scott Kelly and would love to fly with him 🥰. Greetings from Fort Lauderdale 🌴☀️👋🏼😁
I mean, it's a big flat slab of an aeroplane, I'm not surprised it wants to spin in a flat axis, you could call it Frisbee tenendcies.
With the flatspin video, after ejection, you loose over 700 pounds in the nose not counting the canopy. This greatly changes the nose weight which also helped the plane recover.
Three of the best from the Navy, which is already the best of the best