Flutter Testing the Gee Bee Z - Leon Tolve - Part One
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Here’s a video that's a bit of a flash to my past involving flutter, which always concerned me! I experienced flutter on both of my aerobatic airplanes and lost several friends from it as well. In this video, we call on a well-known and respected flutter specialist Leon Tolve to come down to determine whether or not the famous Gee Bee Z had any potential for it. If you will remember, Lowell Bayles was killed trying to set a world speed record in the original in December 1931 after winning the Thompson Trophy Race earlier that summer. Join us for this two-part series to meet Leon and learn not only about flutter but how it might have related to the demise of the original Gee Bee Z!
Kermit Weeks
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Kermit Weeks
I got a feeling Kermit you've been the last Resort for alot of these Treasures of the past. The Aviation community and future generations owes you a dept of gratitude.
That is not flutter test. It called the Ground Vibration Test.
My God, the amount of knowledge this man has amassed from personal, hands-on experience is astounding and priceless. No books, no computers, just hardcore experience. A pure aeronautical treasure.
Perfect example of "The Greatest Generation" I had no Idea what a flutter test involved.
Thank you and you staff for taking the time to film this. You are the best Mr. Kermit..:-)
Kermit, Nothing to say but thank you for everything you have given us to calm our passion for aviation.
THANK YOU!
Leon is one of those guys you just love to sit back and listen too. So much background experience and yet so humble. And come on Kermit, you know you want to assemble the gear and do this test on other aircraft just out of curiosity!
I must say what a remarkable experience to a bin. To work with such a scientist. This man is considered the father of Aeronautical Engineering period and watching this video, it's actually somewhat emotional for me to watch this man is one of the most remarkable primer individuals in the world of Aviation so thank you connect I appreciate it
The collective brilliance and history embodied in this one video is astonishing. I first encountered flutter in R/C aircraft. It was only later that I learned about mass balancing and resonant frequency.
Thanks for showing this test and the very man who helped start this kind of flutter testing.....Leon Tolve.....!!...Waiting on part 2...!
wow... to have such an icon of aerodynamic research there to investigate issues with the gee bee z.....amazing, and lucky beyond belief!!
Kermit' The aviation history you bring with these types of videos is mesmerizing, I can't express how much it means to me. Thanks
Kermit, Thank You so much for Part I of the Flutter Test Video, but I was sure hoping you'd have Part II ready to go as well. I too bought into the gas cap hitting the windscreen theory on Lowell Bayles's crash back in 1931 and think I even saw video purporting to show something hitting the windscreen, but in the back of my mind I still thought of the possibility of wing flutter. God Bless you for having the sense and foresight to have Mr.Tolve come and perform the flutter testing on the Gee Bee Z. I also hope you can have him test the R-1 and the rest of your racers and help you fix them all to prevent future problems.
Wow, Mr. Tolve is one smart cookie! Love watching Kermit’s face, you can see he’s in all listening to Mr. Tolve explaining what needs to be done. Thank goodness we had people like Tolve during WWII!
On RC airplanes, control surface flutter emits a "buzzing" sound, which I used to hear when diving RC sailplanes back in the early 1970's. What a pleasure to watch this icon of flutter research provide his analysis of the Gee Bee Z. Thank you Leon (RIP), and much thanks to Kermit for making it possible!
Aileron "Buzz" is an indication of flutter, servos are effectively "irreversible" controls, meaning they generally help control flutter to some extent.
Yep they do. I’ve heard it many times and I’ve crashed a couple planes due to panic and inexperience at the time
Mr. Weeks is a genuine, very down-to-earth guy. I had an opportunity to share a hangar with him at an airshow in 2004. He's one of the few people I'd consider donating my Wright 1902 gilder to.
Kermit, thank you. Every upload comes with a piece of history and good entertainment. Cheers from Brazil.
I moved to Auburndale almost two years ago. I really hope to see this location open again! This was my favorite place in the world . I remember my two family vacation in 95 and 98 and last visit was in May 2012 for my wedding anniversary. This place was full joy!
Me top...👍
What amazing knowledge and experience Mr Tolve has !
What a bird!!! I always love those pylon racers, Gee-Bees were awesome! The black and yellow paint scheme looks classic. Fascinating how aircraft are tested...
Great video! Thanks Kermit and Leon. As a fighter pilot, airline pilot, and now a corporate jet pilot love this stuff. Never stop learning!
Okay guys, thanks for filming these gentlemen in your discussions around the GeeBee! Usually, I speed up the playback in technical docs, but here I would playback slower than real time, to hear what these pioneers have to say, Just incredible...
Really fascinating, I had no idea about flutter and I’m looking forward to seeing Leon work his magic, it was quite moving to hear you talk about the friends you lost to flutter.
I guess I'm a nerd because I'm waaaaaay more in awe of Leon than sports or movie stars.
Me to this guy is a genius
we're passionate, that's why we are here 🤣
"Passionless talent will, nine times out of ten, yield to relentless passion"
M.K. 05/08/20
One of your most educational presentations. Thanks very much Mr Leon Tolve!
Fantastic video! Thanks for sharing with us all!
The sound of a flutter is unmistakable and Kermit describes it perfectly. The forces involved are incredible as well. I have had an RC Extra 330sc go into aileron flutter and just turn to confetti in seconds.
So wonderful you documented this history with video. Most people never record anything when they are younger find 20-30 years in the future wish they had long after the folks have passed on.
Thanks Kermit, very interesting. And great to hear a pioneer in the field.
As a bit of prospective the Wright Bros. first flight was in 1903 so the accident shown of the speed run occurred only 18 years after. Truly amazing a very similar model is owned and still flown by Kermit 80 years later. As he mentioned must be a rather difficult aircraft to fly due to a lack of vertical tail surface area. About as close to a flying bumble bee as one could find (as implied by the name). Thanks as always to Kermit, his crew (past & present) and to Leon for lending his expertise in this project.
PS - That wind tunnel is such a unique part of aviation history! So glad in Kermit's possession. Hope Kermit's FOF would incorporate an aircraft production facility/line (say for new built DC-3's / Basler's models). Even today such aircraft can access locations few other types can go (& aircraft built to last..).
Perhaps you mean 28 years>
Beyond awesome! Thank you for posting. A treasure.
Very interesting. Remember learning about flutter as an apprentice. I’ve had to check mass balancing after repairs and repaints. It’s something to be taken deadly seriously. When I worked in aircraft production I think there was an oscillating rig fitted inside the aircraft during flight test. The rig was used to try and induce flutter for testing purposes
OK Kermie, you got us HOOKED! Just awaiting the next episode.
So glad you brought the subject up. I lost a friend also from flutter. He was a great designer, but when he was warned that as he had already experienced some flutter on his last flight, and advised to review the cause and rectify it before flying again. Instead he ignored the advice and began speed tests to identify when the flutter began. On his fourth run the vibration was so severe it ripped the aileron hinges apart, causing the aircraft to go into a spiral dive. He shut the engine down and with great difficulty released his parachute. Unfortunately as the engine had been running at full power the propeller was rotating at speed when the chute opened. The aircraft was a pusher prop configuration and the shroud lines immediately began to be wound in on contact with the propeller. The chute ended up fouling the elevator and rudder, pitching the aircraft in a steep nose down attitude until it hit the ground. To this day my friends and I discussed what happened and that it was preventable is the most heart braking fact.
I hope this note finds you soon Mr Weeks. I just finished watching flutter testing the GBZ parts 1 and 2. It has left me in a state of all for Leon Tove for you and everything that has gone on in the past and I am sure will in the future be motivation the inspiration that you have imparted to so many others that you have received from so many others is absolutely amazing a true gift. It was a little difficult for me to completely understand Leon in some of what was going on actually an awful lot of it perhaps I don't know how he related the results to airspeeds but nevertheless it was beyond words the educational value of those videos the inspirational value the technological value I can't even begin to thank you enough for the work you do I hope someday to be able to come down there I live in New Hampshire but perhaps I can get there one day would love to shake your hand thanks again
This was one of the best videos...I love to see them fly but more than that I love the engineering and the mechanics when you go into it....can't wait for part two...BTW please get the B 26 flying and please do more videos on it...my father who is passed now flew them in the war and they fascinate me.
Thanks Kermit for sharing your passion with us!
Really cool to see a ground vibration test on youtube. I was once involved in a project with a wingspan of 200ft+ and it was incredible to see how little force it takes to excite a wing if you hit it with its frequencies
It was great to hear Leon's voice again...what year was this video made? He conducted the GVT on the original Honda plane in the mid 90's while I was in grad school. May he rest in peace.
The footage was shot in 2001, and pulled from my archives and edited in 2021.
My ex-wife had a flutter problem
To save the wind tunnel? THAT is above and beyond the call of aeronautical duty. This made me very happy; thank you.
I can watch this over and over. Just unbelievable knowledge. Well done and edited.
The GEE BEE Z is such an awesome old racer! I've never been able to decide whether it's a plane with an engine..or.. an engine with a plane, if you get my meaning.
Leon on his age still active! wow! Respect!
Very interesting, and very nicely explained to us by Leon. Great vid.
Awesome looking fwd to part 2. I had no Idea about how bad flutter could get, especially when I saw the Horizontal shacking on that airplane. Thanks for sharing Kermit and crew. Best Wishes & Blessings. Keith Noneya
Another great footage, I can't help but to notice that special quality these old schoolers have - it struck me when Kermit had those great conversations with Sergei Sikorsky, I could listen to them without end...on my side I had a surprise encounter with 'Flutter' modding a popular combat flight simulator - when diving the P-51 B one day I suddenly had severe wing flutter (in fact the whole ac shaking) somewhere in the 500 mph area, I was shocked and amazed in the same time, because I've obviously changed something in the aircraft's configuration or code which led to this. It was funny that there was no software problem but rather an 'unlucky' combination of wing segment force points - after some variations I found what dampend the shake to unnoticable levels and 'my' low cost P-51 B now again performs according to the figures....
If you call that very nice King Air a Spam Can> I'll take it. Love those things. That's one nice looking Gee Bee. What an aviation history lesson you've presented here plus a true design process that must be incorporated for aircraft manufacture. Outstanding intellect by Mr. Tolve on the subject. Thank you ever so much for sharing this event.
The high points of 33 years in design was when true experts like Mr. Tolve came in to help us. Their massive experience gave you the assurance that left no doubt their guidance was correct. The true test of someone's knowledge is their ability to explain things in ways that everyone can understand. They all seemed to have that ability to know how best to do that regardless of the audience. No dazzle, no demeaning, no bs just sharing knowledge. Interesting his acknowledgement of your comment about the designers not wanting to admit there could be a flutter problem - you knew he had heard it before! (LOL) Truly a golden opportunity.
1. The video and audio quality is well above average for YT. Thank you.
2. Always thought Kermit was nuts for wanting to fly his Gee Bees. Reassuring to learn that he has taken an engineering approach in doing so.
3. I used to walk by the G.A.L.C.I.T. building every day at work. Kermit presumably has the historic "10 Foot Wind Tunnel." Strange to see it there in his storage facility. To say that thing is a significant piece of U.S. aviation history is an understatement. The Guggenheims also supported the work of Dr Robert H. Goddard. and paid for Orville Wright to restore the original Wright Flyer which is in the collection of the NASM.
4. The video of the L-188 Electra model in a wind tunnel illustrates the phenomenon of propeller whirl or "whirl mode flutter." Propeller whirl resulted in the failure of engine mounts and the loss of several L-188 aircraft in passenger service.
5. That Piper Comanche shown with the unbelievable amount of horizontal stabilizer flutter was ill fated. It later crashed when the owner attempted to take off and crashed with only one gallon of fuel remaining.
Hello Kermit . I could see you were totally absorbed , and in awe , of Mr.Tolve . I have no knowledge of avionics but l was immmediately "hypnotised" by his obvious knowledge , and his willingness to share that knowledge. I was also impressed by yours as well Kermit . I think we all realise the wind tunnel will never be fully functional but nonetheless to see the "viewing " section restored would be a magnificent achievement. I guess Mr. Tolve was in his 80's in this video but his brain was still in it's 20 's ! Fantastic ! Thanks Kermit.
I love this kind of content. This is absolutely my lane of interest. I love the flying as well but the engineering and science just gives me a buzz.
Only Kermit would be crazy enough to fly a GeeBee. Beautiful restoration.
That Crown DC-300 audio amp put a smile on my face. 😄
I once got to talk to the guy who was also the pioneer in the static energy control in aviation and responsible for testing and developing statistic dischargers and it was so cool to have seen the guy as he inspected a Learjet 60 after being repainted. Unfortunately I was working in the hangar and didn't get to talk to him as much as I would have liked to do. This guys lived in such a privileged time with many unknowns and so many things to learn and eventually they became the tip of the arrow for those who followed behind them. Let me tell you something, the world of aviation can be hard, sometimes even cruel and even Kermit can attest to that but there are so many beautiful stories that fly above aviation itself, I get where you are going with it Kermit. We are lucky to have you around with us no doubt.
Thanks
THANK YOU very much Kermit for sharing this more or less unknown big and small problems from the Pioneering time of Aircraft Constructing with us Kermit🌷🇺🇲
What an absolute aeronautical gem.
It’s a rare and beautiful thing to marry the free spirit of pioneer (racing) aviation with the obsessive Methodism of modern aviating and Kermit does this perfectly.
The Tacoma bridge comes to mind. Outstanding presentation. Thank you for sharing with us.
What a beautiful plane!
Thanks for the upload today. I've never heard of flutter testing. Interesting.
Do you remember the movie titled "No Highway In the Sky," with Jimmy Stewart. That had to do with metal fatique I think? That movie was cool as a kid to watch. I sucked at math back in grade school, and the moral of the story is I should go back to grade school. Bless
I had a Mong Sport biplane built in 64 that I aquired in 69. I never built it. While I am a licensed A&P. I had little knowledge of flutter I had aelroin flutter at severlpoints of operation. The problem turned out to be metal bushings on the pivots. I made new ones from urm plastic. Problem fixed.
I had no idea how bad this could have gotten. I could have been killed from this.
No substitute for decades of experience, I hope the skill and knowledge of these men is passed on to future enthusiasts, long may they fly.
I did flutter and buffet analysis for several major aircraft corporations when I was an stress analyst and this basic observation method is what I learned, beside the hand analysis. They have some pretty good flutter programs now with the huge computing power available, but even with all that, sometimes it takes someone poking around with some hands on observations to fix some problems. Like u mentioned, there can be different levels of flutter at different speeds, and the higher the speed that they occur, the faster the damage happens. Most common causes of flutter are unbalanced control surfaces and ailerons are especially a culprit. Having the aileron balance on a torsion spring, as in this plane, actually can add to the problem.
Is flutter in part due to resonance? André
@@SoundzAlive1 I was told that it happens when there is an aerodynamic force interacting with an unstable structural part on the ac. Most common examples are unbalanced control surfaces such as aileron, elevators, and least common the rudder. The worse case panel design on wings are panels found on most wings, and that is high aspect ration rectangular panels that are between wing stringers and ribs or even worse, an aileron. In the case of an aileron, it doesn't matter how stiff it is. If it's out of static balance, it could flutter. There are different stages to flutter some times where if a part survives the first frequency it could go into another frequency due to many factors like speed vs angle of attack along with density altitude. There's a lot to it, but the most important thing I learned was stay glued to the old timers that did this stuff for many years and I annoyed them constantly by asking a lot of questions.
THANK YOU. Mr. Weeks. I believe this presentation is a very important documentation of the real men that created these technologies.
The best oral description of a Granville Brothers racer I ever heard was a engine module with a seat strapped on the back and control fins.
This is fascinating. I was involved in flutter testing (from the government side) on the F-16 in early in that aircraft’s operations. The aircraft had been “sold” as a lower cost alternative to the F-15, but as soon as it started coming off the production line, the forces wanted to expand the flight envelope for munitions carriage. There was a long list of load combinations, depending on what order weapons were released (and droppable fuel tanks) - engineers looked for the worst case loads, and then we worked flight tests with instrumented aircraft to test for flutter.
This is amazing!!! Thank you so much for sharing this sort of insight it really is irreplaceable and hard to find!!
One of my favorite airplanes. I think I now have an idea why I have not seen any of these at Oshkosh since Delmar flew there.
Hanging on a wall in a museum does little to convey how awesome these are in motion. I've repeatably told people how remarkable these airplanes were for their time in history.
Never thought I'd see a real original HP 200A oscillator (Version 2 of the product that started Silicon Valley) in actual productive use again.
Cliff Secord brought me here. Beautiful plane, great vid. thanks for posting!!
This is the perfect way to make sure knowledge is passed on.
Your videos are very educational and interesting and these engineers are treasure of wisdom and experience.
I saw another video of a stunt pilot Delmar Benjamin flies GeeBee and according to him he can fly it in a knife edge all across the country.
I suppose you know him well. He too has videos on RUclips.
Thank you for sharing.
Wow, incredible to listen to him!
It is so good to see Curtis still being involved!
Leon Tolve and Curtis Pitts in the same frame ! Great video thanks for sharing it with us.
The wind is cool, what a surprise older guy to see!!
I used to fly a King Air 200 with the N number was 200TP a 1976 model
Really nice job in front of an audience.
Great info on flutter. A topic that fascinates me, but that I know so little about.
nothing to see here, just a room full of absolute LEGENDS in the aviation industry standing around a gee bee..
Outstanding history, fantastic reference, engrossing story.
Very cool. I do structural dynamics as my day job. Looking forward to Part 2.
Black and yellow just like a wasp 😎 Ten years ago I had a Kyosho RC model of this plane. It was really fast but difficult to fly on low speed so one day when I was doing a turn to go in for a landing
The speed was to low so she did a Wing stall and clipped down to mother Earth. She was out of repair, luckily the four stroke OS engine survived 😁
Typical story of RC 😅....reminds me of a pilatus pc21 I had, during a stall it would drop a wing and roll 2 to 3 times and dropped from the sky instantly and luckily I found out with just enough altitude to make it.
Fantastic Kermit thanks
A very interesting subject... I have heard, that is a reason why the control surfaces of several metal aircraft built in the era of WW2, are covered with dope and fabric , is to control the problems associated with control surface flutter , particularily the ailerons... In A&P school, it was described to be caused by the airflow flowing over them, and spring-boarding up and down off of the high energy of moving airflow over the movable surfaces... Progressively becoming worse... The reason the dope & fabric covered control surfaces helped to orevent flutter, is because they tended to Dampen the tendancy of re-bounding off of the high energy airflow, and absorb it, thus preventing the rebound effect of a stiff surface...
Getting a plane painted is not a minor issue either.
Whenever I drive past FoF on I-4, I always hope to see something great coming or going…
Yup It's me still SHOUTING Kermit saving our AV History, & This flutter "IN YOUR FACE" segments it's totally a learning experience I've blown some RC racers up because of it ,fast forward decades, On wanting to Paint a few planes, Moving flight control surfaces,hungry for these type of Video's
Leaning something new EVERY DAY I teach my Grandsons/daughter's
Now..He just made his 1st 200 mph funny car pass..loves Aero Machines too :-)
It's good that you were able to get him to come down when you did.
These older WW2 guys were my heros, all of them and I miss them more than I can say, what men they were and are because they live on in eternity with God.
Thanks for a Titanic teaser.Eagerly awaiting Fantasy of Flight flutter filled feature Pt.2.
Leon is a candidate for the Congressional Medal of Honour for his efforts to benefit his nation.
It is so amazing what old guys that did all the foundation science know. Too many youngsters think they 'know it all' and the truth is.. their education wouldn't fill a thimble. Fantastic... just fantastic, to see the old best minds, still on top of the game. 👍.
What a brilliant man! Loved this video, thank you
I'm 63 I've been a mechanic my whole life it looks to me like a flying engine🎉🎉🎉🎉
I know you have this presentation in the can already, but some info on the how and mechanisms Mr. Tolve used in 1940 to find and resolve this issue would be interesting also! Pretty sure the bench load of ocilliscopes weren't on the agenda back then! Tremendous drop, Kermit- ton of history represented by someone who stood there making it happen; only at Fantasy of Flight! FR
Brilliant Mr Weeks
It's always great to see Curtis Pitts.
Those aircraft are the most bizarre looking planes. I don’t see how they even fly. They are so heavy looking at the front and the stubby little wings don’t seem as if they would create enough lift.
The GB is one of the most famous aircraft in speed record history. It's also one of the most dangerous to fly. I don't think I'd ever try to fly it for that reason.
This is cool on so many levels !!!
Like my first visit to Fantasy Of Flight.
Thanks .