Even though I was confused for a moment about the lube hole for the low/reverse roller clutch center support I’m glad you pointed it out. There is nothing about it in the ASTG manual. I finally just looked down in the case and saw the lube hole in the case at 5 o’clock with my chest touching the valve body mounting point.
Hi Marshal. I finally solved the clearance problems on my E4OD. It turned out to be two new parts from my Overhaul kit from BD diesel the new splined shaft did not make the splines long enough to go into the mating part and the other part was a bearing sits was 30 thousand too much. Now I have proper input and out put clearances and the tail shaft turns as it should. I sure3 appreciate all your help and your video, keep up the good work.
Oh wow that was a tough one ! Good catch My first go to when having endplay issues is “What parts did I Change” Usually it comes out to Different Year parts compatibility but in your case it seems you got some custom parts that weren’t machined correctly. All in a Days Building though, You worked the problem till you found the solution which is what it takes. We’re they “In house” parts they sell or they just got a bad batch. Did you ever take pics to send me ? I have been mowing over mentioning all the problems you guys out there are having and the solutions in my videos, Your issue would be great to mention on the things to look out for ! Thanks for letting me know and glad you found the problem !
Thankyou for your quick reply... I counted the frictions/steels in the old clutch pack "what was left of them" that was one of the clutches that burned up, and from what I could tell there was only enough pieces to count for 5 frictions and 5 steels, this units out of a 95 e250 van 2wd with a 5.8 so it must be on the older end of the spectrum, but thanx again your a real help...
Yep ! It sounds like you have it figured out. As long as the clearance is right. .030 to .060 max then you should be good 👍 thanks for the comments it helps anyone reading !
Ok gotcha! In that case if you are doing a good bit of manual shifting then yes take out the wave and add a clutch and steel like you said. The reasoning is as your manually up shifting into second if there is a wave in the low-reverse the clutch takes longer to disengage because of the wave and can cause binding between 1st. and 2nd on the shift. Having all flat steels in there gives a quicker release. Just set it up on the tighter side of the spec and your good to go. Sounds like a beast of a truck!
Thank you for being thorough in these vids I’m in the process of building my 4r100 and you have shown some great things to watch out for so thanks again
Well done Marshall ! a pleasure watching this and it`s a real credit to your get it right attitude. Fantastic. Way to get her done!! Excellent Regards,👍 The Panelbeater NZ
Marshall I got a question about overdrive end-play. In yer check, u pry up against the coast clutch drum, which shows the play between the drum and the thrust washer against the pump. BUT, what about the thrust bearing between the sun gear and the pump? I dont see any way to check this. When I was puttin mine together, I notice that when doing a trial install of the pump minus the gasket and sealing ring, the pump is floatin' on the sun gear to pump thrust bearing, just about 5 thou above the flange for the bolt holes. I had to mill down my center support to use the sonnax stabilizin' ring and it was within spec. Might wind up millin' the center support down some more.
update; I removed everything from the case, reinstalled ONLY the center support and overdrive/coast clutch assembly (minus clutches), the pump with NO gasket, and measure the gap between pump and case flange at 5 thou. Used gasket measures 15 thou. So I deduce ten thou of endplay along the center support-ODhousing-ODplanet-sungear-pump bearing axis. Reassembly WITH gasket and torquing the pump, then prying thru the OD feed bolt hole to the bottom of the OD housing UP (with pump side up) further confirms some very low level of end play, ten thou or less. Seems a little on the tight side and I may mill off five thou from the front of the center support bearing land to loosen things up a little. As u stress, ALWAYS check that endplay.
Yep ALWAYS check endplay and correct endplay when necessary. It’s one thing if not right will wipe out an otherwise perfect rebuild in quick manner. Sounds like you have a good handle on checking/correcting the situation. Biggest thing is checking ALL possibilities Parts/fitment etc. especially ones that were replaced for any reason that may be the culprit for endplay issues before machine anything as a last resort. Ten thou and up should be acceptable for the O/D endplay on these transmissions. Biggest thing is that there is some! It’s pretty amazing how many people I’ve had on my channel/ helped on my channel with endplay issues on these transmissions. It’s all about working the situation until you get satisfactory results no matter what. A lot of guys have had issues with the O/D hub (the one that splines into the forward drum) not going all the way down contacting the bearing between it and the center support. Check every little detail before coming to a conclusion. Happy Building my friend! You got this
@@marshallsanders5672 got nother update; i milled 7 thou off the front lands of the center support, and this is the limit due to the shoulder on OD shaft putting axial load on the ball bearing if I remove more material. I get like 2 thou of endplay with this arrangement. So the options here are to turn down the shoulder of the OD housing PLUS mill down the center support face more, or use two front pump gaskets.I think I am gonna stack up a second front pump gasket. That should get me to around 12 thou or so. I never stacked two gaskets up before. Shouldnt be a problem I think, but lemme know if u got any thoughts. Thanks again for the help
Very interesting for sure! Not a whole bunch of ways to achieve the proper endplay. Milling more will work just have to make sure when doing Custom mods that ALL interferences get checked. I’ve never done the two gasket stack before, my gut makes me Leary of that but could possibly work. Only issue would be blowout between the two gaskets but if torqued and then retorqued properly after about ten minutes or so most likely be fine. I have flat sanded thrust washers many times before to achieve a desired endplay on many transmissions. That can be an option as well. Just don’t want to sand all of the oiling grooves out of the washer itself, not sure how much you could take off. As long as you have at least 10 thou endplay you should be fine. As you can see there is no right or wrong here just have to achieve the desired endplay. Let us know what you decide.
@@marshallsanders5672 Marshall, I was able to remove some more from the front bearing lands on the center support... I was in error about the OD shaft (aka center shaft) shoulder getting too close to the ball bearing. I hav milled off a total of 17 thou from the front lands and now have exactly 22 thou of endplay in the OD section, with ALL thrust washers and bearings in play. I measured it with an indicator on the input shaft, prying UP on the OD shaft, with no direct or forward drums in the way. I wasnt getting an accurate measurement after the first 7 thou milling operation bcuz I was relying on feel/sight instead of a indicator
So I put my Low/reverse clutch pack in and measured the clearance with a filler gauge and I’m at .060? I know that’s on the high end anything I can do to make it tighter? Mine trans has a wave plate, 1997 E4OD.
So, I believe I found the solution which would be to buy thicker steels, my current steels are Kolene steels and the thicker ones are not. Can I mix Kolene and non Kolene steels?
Yeah .060 is a bit loose. It won’t cause any problems other than possibly delay in reverse engagement. Mixing steels is just fine to do. I like around .040 on that clutch. You can also remove the wave and stack steels in its place but sounds like your thicker steels will do the trick.
Thanks for the instructional videos. I was hoping you could elaborate on how the input and output shaft should turn after reassembly. My output shaft turns easily counterclockwise, but clockwise takes some effort. In the clockwise direction I can see its turning the sunshell.
Yes that is normal as turning it counterclockwise overruns the low sprag and makes it “easier” to turn. Clockwise locks the low sprag which causes more parts including the sun shell to turn therefore it is harder but normal. Just be sure to check your end plays as it is Vital they are right which I explain in the video !
You should have used a magic marker on the valve body and case where the center support is and a straightedge to show that after tightening the center support bolts the case wasn't distorted. Just for educational purposes. Great video series thanks.
I have no idea why the end play was off as much as it was I’m glad you found it , as far as the reverse piston return spring I must of seen that in some other shift kit , great video these are the reasons your building it and not me , on another note my heads aren’t back from the machine shop I’m hoping I get them this week so I can get this motor back together
That was a strange one ! I’ve had many endplay issues on other transmissions but never an E4OD. It’s usually a part that was just manufactured to tall or to short for that matter or mismatched parts but all was right in this thing . No big deal though. Technically I only took off .020 because that sealing washer is .010. In the grand scheme of things it wasn’t much just had to get enough to make it RIGHT. It’s happy now no harm no foul. Next video we should be wrapping it up !
Hey Marshall, first time builder assembling my 4r100 in my 2nd Gen Lightning. Is it a good idea to remove the cushion spring plate in the low/reverse section and replace it with an extra clutch and steel?
I’m assuming your talking about the forward clutch. As far as that goes I would only remove it if necessary meaning the stock 4 clutch pack is good for 500-550ft. lbs torque as long as the clutch pack is built properly/ flat steels/flat pressure plates/quality clutches etc. Anything over that torque you just remove the wave and add a clutch upping the torque capacity 25%. In doing so the engagement is firmer but not bad and there is a chance should the trans go into a max pressure situation upon forward engagement it can break the drum snapring out. Very rare but I’ve seen it happen. It’s a judgement call as far as that goes, hope this helps
@@marshallsanders5672 Thanks for the response Mr. Marshall. I’m actually talking about the low/reverse pack all the way at the rear of the case. I’m definitely going to do it to the forward pack. The truck is a supercharged/ nitrous combo. It sees a lot of torque. I’m installing raybestos red clutches and a transgo tugger kit as well.
Didn’t see my text hit not sure if you got it, Yes it is a good idea to remove the wave if you are planning on manually shifting from 1st to 2nd. With the wave in there it takes longer for the clutch to release therefore it can cause a bind up on the shift. Micro second but long enough to strain the geartrain. Definitely use Trango Tugger kit for manual shifting and Alto Clutches or Borg Warner work well also.
@@marshallsanders5672 Thank you for the info, that’s exactly what I needed to know. Logically it makes sense but wanted to make sure from someone with experience.
35 minutes into my Evolution video explains how to get an extra clutch in the drums. As far as your build you really don't need extra clutches with that HP just a rock solid rebuild should do fine in your case. Most all kits from different companies are the same TransTec kits. The difference is the clutches which I recommend BORG WARNER every time.
Any need to update the Coast Clutch pack, I did some measuring and I could go to 4 steels and 3 clutches from 2 steals, 2 clutches and 1 pressure plate?
Interesting thought there, It would always be better to have more clutches in that clutch pack as they are kind of puny. But definitely don't use a steel as a pressure plate ! The top Plate or "Pressure Plate" in any clutch stack must be thicker so it doesn't bend or flex otherwise you wouldn't get a solid clamp on all the clutches. If you were to use a Steel Plate as a Pressure Plate the Steel Plate would press against the snap ring on the outside but would just flex up on the inside causing uneven clamping on the entire clutch and cause clutch failure no matter how many clutches were in there if that makes sense. Also you may have noticed in some of my videos the importance of making sure ALL of your Pressure Plates are "DEAD" Flat so you get an even Clamping force on the entire clutch when it applies, Just a note on that as well.
@@marshallsanders5672 yes I did notice the importance of flat pressure plates, thanks for the info. I will be sticking with the 2 clutches to keep the pressure plate.
I think keeping the springs is the right choice in almost every situation. I'm about to build my first e4od which has all 4r100 internals I plan to add a sixth clutch to the direct drum . I ordered some thicker snap rings math says I'll end up with .057 clearence. I'm on the fence cause the next ring makes it .074. Btw I gotta give u props for being extraordinary through in ur videos. Hats off sir
Yes sir ! .057 sounds perfect after a few hundred miles of break in it should “end up” around .062. They always get slightly looser after break-in. Thank you It’s the only way to do these videos in my opinion. I hate videos leaving someone still questioning things in the end. No matter the subject. Only downfall is they are a bit lengthy.
Hey Marshall, thanks for going through the trouble to film and I’m sure edit and upload these great informational videos. I have a 1997 f250 HD with a 460 in it. If you have time could you pass along some info about suppliers for the transmission internals. Thanks again for the hard work and wonderful videos!
Yes Sir your very welcome I’m glad all you guys out there are getting what you need out of my videos. They can be a bit long winded but it’s for a reason ! As far as the parts situation For 90% of my parts these days I go to 3 main suppliers WIT “Whatever it Takes” transmission parts, “PA Cargo” , or “TRANSTAR “ they are the best these days for getting me quality on time parts in my opinion. It is very hit and miss on good parts these days and a person must be very wary of the parts there putting inside there transmissions. PS I will also use at times PATC for many high performance H/D parts and Converters they are second to none but Very Expensive. Hope this helps !
I think I missed something in the air check part of this, the kit I got from Transtar Ind. came with a paper showing the air check locations and you kinda did those checks as you were assembling but now that this unit is all assembled other than the valve body I'm trying to air check and I'm not getting that same "clack" that I got when stacking gears and drums on the bench, also one of thr ports that we air checked a clutch at says it's a lube port and how do you air check a lube hole, what sound or whatever am I looking for when pressurizing a lube circuit in a trans? Maybe you could do a short segment on air checking, what to expect and or hear when doing final air checks Ect...
Doug, Yes it can be a bit confusing on the air checks, The lube circuit will just "HISS" air like a big leak because it is an open circuit just feeding bushings and geartrain parts. I do a full aircheck segment in the next video I made "Transgo tugger kit install" To clear up confusion around this procedure. It is about 59 minutes into that video ! Check it out
Tim, I generally go to WIT "Whatever it Takes" transmission parts, PA Cargo, or Transtar for 90% of my parts. Transtar is more expensive for basically the same parts but sometimes they are the only ones that have exactly what I need. It is very hit and miss these days getting parts but they should be able to get you what you need !
Tim as far as I know by 1997 there were no 6pinion planet E4OD’s made. In the transition to the 4R100 In 1998 I believe a few had just the 6pinion “Front” planet setup in the super duty F-350 setups but hit and miss ! The glory of it nowadays is the E4OD can easily be retrofitted to the full 6 pinion setup in any super heavy duty situation. Just paying the price is the hard part.
I use a variable flow air nozzle so it’s probably around 100psi max. I usually just “burp” the handle that way I can tell whether the clutch is holding air well or not. Good question thanks for the comment
If I have my case sitting on the bell housing and I try to spin the output shaft, I can’t spin it by hand but with pliers I can. Counter clock way is easier then clock ways. Should I pull it apart again?
That sounds normal as far as being able to turn it but did you check the endplay's front and rear. 45 min into the video shows how to check them. If you have endplay front and rear your good to go but MUST have some endplay. I had and endplay issue with this trans and at 53 min. shows where i have correct endplays.
I have it completely together, when I pull it apart can I reuse the separator plate gaskets since I have to take that stuff off to get to the feed bolts. Or do I buy new ones? Also when I pull the feed bolts out do I need to put anything on them since they were already installed once? I’m just wanting to make sure I do it right.
You can reuse it all as long as you don’t tear the gaskets they’ll be fine. Sounds like you may have put the 2nd sprag race in backward. I talk about this in one of my videos ! My “building the guts” video
Yea I heard you talk about that but I don’t think that I did, but we will find out. I will let you know what I find, thank for such a quick response. I wish I would have found your videos sooner.
I started loading the guts into my Bronco's tranny and discovered that whoever rebuilt it left out the upper sunshell bushing. Only one(1) bushing in the sunshell! Sheer luck that I noticed it. It's amazing that a supposedly "professionally rebuilt transmission" could be missing something like that. Thank you for putting that in piece by piece. Your double take @19:03 is what saved me from putting it back together with the missing bushing.
Its all about taking your time and paying attention to everything Good catch ! Nothing surprises me anymore as so many more people are having bad days/Non attentive days Etc. This is where building it yourself really can make all the difference.
@@marshallsanders5672 I found another thing today. The pump gasket that was on it is different from my new one. The new one matches all the holes with no extra cut outs, whereas the old one has an extra oblong cut out and an extra round cutout. Not sure if that is why I had the leak...
@@kratosdisciple4637 Interesting ! I know of only one gasket for all 89 to 05 E4OD's and 4R100's. Possibly you just had one that wasn't manufactured correctly. Definitely the lesson here is to pay attention to EVERYTHING and take NOTHING for granted these days. Good Catch !
Marshall I've learned so much from your videos (just a weekend warrior) . when I went to air test center support , Facing support bolts right opening operated clutches ,Left bolt just sounded like it blew right on through which clutch pack does it operate apparently have a bad seal
Nope your good ! That hole that leaks profusely with no clutch apply is the lube circuit which lubes the front portion of the rear gear train. Your good to go !
So... what does it mean when putting in the low reverse clutch, 6 steeles, 6 frictions, thick pressure plate, and DAMN no room for snap tring, almost completely covers snap ring slot???
That just boils down to what changed from the original setup ? Did you change the apply piston, steels,clutches. The apply piston could be taller, the steels could be thicker, the clutches could be thicker, just compare everything from what came out of it. What year transmission is it ? Some early ones and 6cyl. Small V-8’s had 5 steels 5 clutches.
I finally got the entire transmission reassembled. Couldn't have done it without these videos. But.... When I went to put the torque converter on, I checked the input shaft("always spinning") and it doesn't spin. Is that normal? Or did I mess something up when I put the pump in? The output shaft spins normally.
@@marshallsanders5672 Just went and opened it back up. When I did my air test on the overdrive I had my compressor set @110 psi. It must have lifted the overdrive section just enough that when I did a second air test the bottom clutch caught on the underside of the overdrive hub and completely warped the clutch. Either that or I didn't have the overdrive section completely seated? Lesson learned....
Yes Sir ! This is where Checking end plays are SO important because if there is way to much endplay it’s missing something or if not enough or binding up everything isn’t seated like you said with the clutch not being all the way splined. Biggest thing is you caught it on the “Bench” and didn’t have to pull it back out of the truck ! Good Stuff my friend !
@@marshallsanders5672 Yep. You show it in your video. I got over eager and moved right to installing the pump. Rookie mistake. Won't happen again. Can only imagine what would have happened to my transmission had I started it. That friction plate would have disintegrated and sent pieces through the whole trans.
Bad Ass ! All that matters is you Caught it on the bench ! So important ! Otherwise it would have chewed up and sent metal all through the trans like you said and the 2 hours of work catching it on the bench would have turned into 15 hours of WTF and that’s where transmission building gets difficult. My videos are ALL about getting it right the FIRST time and from there it’s just minor adjustments if necessary! Good Stuff !
I have an 93 f150 with an I6 . Everything works perfect except "D". it shifts but shimmies and stalls when gas peddle is pressed. Any ideas? Greatly appreciated.
Thanks for these videos. I'm 2 years into being self employed. My work truck is a 7.3 f250. With how times are I can't afford to pay someone to rebuild my transmission (I'm not even sure thats what it needs). I'm hoping if I can't find someone who has seen the issue in having and can give me advise. That I will be able to rebuild it effectively on my own. The issue in having is one day after at operating temp. I started it. Put it in drive and nothing happened. It didnt engage. Me thinking I just didn't actually have it in drive,I out it back in park. Then drive again. And nothing. I tapped the throttle and when it hit about 800 rpm. It engaged. I let off the throttle and at the same point it disengaged again. I pulled it down into manual 1 and it engaged immediately. I then drive it about 1/4 mile shifting manually and it shifted through all the gears. Now in drive when I slowed down to pull back into my driveway. As soon as it got down to that 600ish rpm point it disengaged. I pulled it down into manual 1 and it engaged immediately. I pulled it in and parked it. The next day cold I started it. Put it in drive and it acted like nothing was wrong with it. It engaged. I then put it in park. Let it. Get to operating temp. Put it in drive and agsin, nothing. Tapped the throttle and again at that 800ish rpm poj tit engaged. I onky know what I have learned in the past few days about these transmissions. I honestly don't know engaged exacrly about how they work to diagnose it.
Very interesting sounds like possibly pump is losing its prime or line pressure is too low at idle. Manual low engages probably fine because the computer spikes the pressure in that gear. I would do a line pressure check and see what it is at idle when not engaging. Line pressure PSI should be constant 70psi at idle. Also make sure the filter is up in the pump if it’s sucking any air it could cause those symptoms. Old school problems like that with no engagement til you rev the engine is just a plain worn out pump but the E4OD generally doesn’t wear out the pump but can’t rule it out!
@@marshallsanders5672 ill grab a filter and pull the pan. I had read somewhere or maybe you said it that its possible for fluid to leak by those selinoids. Is that a possibility? Idk. I'm going to start with pulling the selinoid pack plug and checking for fluid. After that I'm lost. However I'll take your advise. Although once I have the info I'll have no clue what to do with it Edit. Idk of it matters but the truck was at operating temp the first time this happened. I had been driving it all morning I went out and started it. Let it get to operating temp. Turned the over drive off while in drive. And it went into gear. Idk what gear cause I didn't want to smoke any of the clutches. It definitely did something while in drive. At idle. Turning the over drive off.
@@marshallsanders5672 BTW. Man thanks for the videos. I learned more in a few hours of binge watching your videos then days and days of reading and watching other peoples videos. I shared a random one just to direct peopel to your channel. Of all creators made videos how you do it would make things way faster for people like me to learn.
Ok lots of info there, The biggest thing I noticed in what your telling me is you said when you turn the O/D off it goes right into gear. Do that a few many times and see if it is consistent with loosing gear and engaging. What happens when you turn the O/D off is the computer engages the Coast Clutch. With the Coast clutch engaged it Overrides the O/D input Roller Clutch which must hold to go into gear. If the O/D roller clutch isn’t holding it won’t engage unless the Coast Clutch is on. It could just be a mechanical problem with that O/D roller clutch. Possibly just the little rpm change is forcing it to lock. If it is consistent with this it almost has to be the roller clutch. And when you put it into Manual First it applies the coast clutch as well so it makes sense the O/D roller clutch is most likely the cause. My first thought was hydraulic but it very well could be mechanical.
You make it look easy. It took me a lot longer to get everything in right. Assume you measured the center support and the upgrade wear ring for proper thickness? If the center support was milled too thin or wear ring was not thick enough that would cause the loss of clearances, right? Also a good video would be how to pressure and vacuum test this transmission. All test ports air pressures etc. My ATSG 4R100 manual had me testing a feed hole that was actually not a feed and made me tear down transmission 2 times until I got my Ford Manual out and seen the ATSG error. Even the Sonic directions differed from the ATSG manual on air test ports. My 4R100s have a different type of sun drum and the ears sit on the sun drum. Will this make the rear clearances different for a 4r100?
Yes you are correct about the upgraded center support. The snap ring was .052 thick and they machined exactly .052 off of the center support. That was my first go to but it measured fine. There were a lot of parts changed in this transmission and I literally miked every sing part and nothing showed thicker than any of the “factory” parts I had on hand. A very Unusual problem but the fact that I was able to machine it down and get the clearance I need is what really matters! Thanks for the comment ! Yes that is a shame the ATSG book had a fopa in it. It is very frustrating when when the information isn’t correct because it throws you completely off! I will do a full air check on this trans and show it on my next video ! Good Idea.
Your clearances should be the same no matter what type of parts are in it. .020 to .030 rear unit clearance is optimal. Even if the shell is touching the Direct drum the Total rear unit endplay is what’s important.
Have you ever used an extra od clutch snap ring from an e4od as the ring used for the center support update mine checks in at .077. Considering give this a try I cant see any issues with removing .025 more from the center support. Would love to pick ur brain about some of the ideas and issues I have run in to.
@@darrells4970 no I don’t see a reason not to. It sounds like your clearances are on point. Just the machining part as it would have to be done by a machine shop you know of. It seems youAre just looking to get Extra support in that area other than the already updated kit companies sell. Must be a powerhouse this thing is going behind !
Damn out of the blue a guy sent me the ATSG book that had the wrong air test port! It showed the Intermediate LUBE circuit as the Intermediate Clutch circuit. Crazy but misprints happen more than a person would think! I see where you were confused
So I've got this customer who tells me one day that the E40D transmission I rebuilt shifts beautifully and then a few days later that it is slipping. Then he tells me later that it's back to shifting great again and not to long after that, it slipping again. This time he tells me that the overdrive light is on. Any ideas besides the installer did not do a proper trans flush and now there is crap from the lines that have gotten into the system?
Makes me wonder if the two worn out bearings you found earlier might have been a symptom of the endplay issues you discovered at your final check. Didn't catch if that sealing washer was something new you put in or if it was previously installed. Whatever the case, between your vids and the transmission bench vids I'm talking myself into rebuilding the transmission in my recently acquired 95 E350... Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise!
That Endplay issue was very unique in nature, I've never had that happen before. The bearings weren't bad enough to cause any endplay problems but it is what it is ! Thanks for the comments Sounds like your ready to build your trans. "Happy Building" my friend
Hi marshall, I'm currently building an E4OD going into a 1991 F350 Diesel. Because it is an HD vehicle and I plow snow with it I'm really beefing it up. This includes upgrading the whole rear gear train to the the 4R100 6 pinion planets. I got all of the guts together and ended up with the same exact issue on the rear end play! I took everything apart down to the rear planet set, which I had upgraded to the stamped steel drum so I could get 6 pinions, but you didn't in your trans. Endplay with just those still in the case was good. I checked all of my thrust washers and bearings and everything was seated properly. I checked the center support and I got the same 3.130 that you had. I chucked it in my lathe and took off about 0.028. Put it back together and now I have about 0.018" endplay. That's a little tight but l'm happy with it. We both changed the forward planet for a 6 pinion so I believe the answers lies in those components.@@marshallsanders5672
@@nathantjapkes2155very interesting for sure! Only the second time I’ve heard of rear endplay issues that weren’t obvious 🤔. The fact you are paying attention enough to check the endplay is key! Good catch and that fix worked just fine for me to get the endplay correct. .018” should be fine key is that there is some endplay and not way sloppy, sounds like a strong unit your building there. Had you not caught that big problems would have occurred! Checking endplay is just as important as putting the filter in on every single rebuild every time, no exceptions! Pretty cool you have a lathe to chock it up and get it done. I’m pretty old school but the end result is all that matters however a person makes it happen! Good stuff! Happy building my friend! Thanks for the comment!
Put a large pliers on it and try it’s harder to turn one way than it is the other which is normal. One way it overruns the sprag but the other you actually spin the gear train making it harder. Did you check your endplays ? What was wrong with the pump not going in ?
Marshall I just installed my rebuild on e4od and followed your videos,after shifting through gears to get fluid to everything let it warm up shifted to reverse worked perfect put it in drive and engine bogged down and have no forward gears what could I have done wrong? only thing I know that I did was put one of the bigger ball on top of the springin valve body could that be it? thanks for all your help
Oh no that’s not the way it’s supposed to go ! Did you try ALL manual gears including the stalk cancel button ? Bogged down like something was applying in forward gear. I don’t think the checkball on the spring would cause a problem if reverse was working good ! I’m assuming your talking about the EPC relief pressure spring in the rear of the case ? Is the no forward condition like neutral engine revving or is it locked up won’t move situation?
@@marshallsanders5672Sanders Locked up won't move in forward gears. yes, in the back of case on spring. in 4 wheel drive reverse works fine ,no forward gears locked up engine bogs down.
@@garyrodgers7442 Without being there is the hardest part of trying to diagnose it. Does the engine rev with no clutch application in park and neutral ? This check will tell you whether there is something Mechanically locked Without hydraulic pressure being involved. At this point I would suspect something Valve Body Related Checkballs in the wrong place/ A valve in backwards, What parts did you change out that could have been different and have created this ? What was the reason you pulled it out in the first place ? Had it been rebuilt before ? What year transmission is it ? Did it air check fine ? Did it go together well or did you fight anything ? Just have to work the problem until you find the reason. That checkball with spring is the EPC pressure relief valve If it were not working correctly it would just not build pressure past the 70 psi idle pressure. That wouldn't cause this problem. Unless the solenoid pack didn't bolt tight to the case there because the checkball was jammed tight in the case not allowing proper clamping of the solenoid pack. Then I'm not sure how it would act but you get the idea.
@@marshallsanders5672 Thanks Marshall, I did a complete standard rebuild no added parts, new solenoid pack. I was pulling a heavy load in deep (I know) mud and it locked up doing just as it is now except then I had no reverse either most all clutches burnt .as far as I can tell it has not been rebuilt. this is a 1997 F 250 heavy duty, build date 9/97 good on air checkand went together fine no problems. Would the selector switch have any effect on this? just reaching
Ok gotcha! Sounds like a standard rebuild other than being all burnt up and you didn’t “build” the problem into the unit so to speak. Very unusual what’s going on here. There is no reaching at this point it’s all about brainstorming the problem into reality if you will. Can’t rule out the selector switch but a few factors have to happen for that to be the cause. Without getting to technical have you been able to scan this truck ? It is imperative to scan it and see what the computer is doing and seeing. If the computer is seeing a different gear than what your selecting with the shifter then yes it could cause issues like this. For this transmission to lock-up in any forward gear it has to be applying two different gears at once WITH either the low/reverse clutches on in any gear but man. Low OR the man. 2nd band on in any other gear but 2nd. Was the band burnt up? Was the low/rev clutches burnt up ? I’m assuming you tried ALL manual gears with the same locked-up result ? Was there any STUCK valves in the valvebody did you completely disassemble the valve body ?
@@marshallsanders5672 Thanks. I'm dropping the E4OD out of my 91 Bronco tomorrow. One thing I've learned over the decades is how to recognize someone that really knows what they are doing. I'll be mimicking you're techniques to the letter.
You are the man, I'm building a 4R100 and you have answers some questions..Thanks so very much ..
Your very welcome! Thanks for the Comment
Even though I was confused for a moment about the lube hole for the low/reverse roller clutch center support I’m glad you pointed it out. There is nothing about it in the ASTG manual. I finally just looked down in the case and saw the lube hole in the case at 5 o’clock with my chest touching the valve body mounting point.
Yes Sir! it all about the details when building transmissions
Roschtech, at 24:30 min. into this video I show the snap ring/center support going in after modifications.
Hi Marshal. I finally solved the clearance problems on my E4OD. It turned out to be two new parts from my Overhaul kit from BD diesel the new splined shaft did not make the splines long enough to go into the mating part and the other part was a bearing sits was 30 thousand too much. Now I have proper input and out put clearances and the tail shaft turns as it should. I sure3 appreciate all your help and your video, keep up the good work.
Oh wow that was a tough one ! Good catch My first go to when having endplay issues is “What parts did I Change” Usually it comes out to Different Year parts compatibility but in your case it seems you got some custom parts that weren’t machined correctly. All in a Days Building though, You worked the problem till you found the solution which is what it takes.
We’re they “In house” parts they sell or they just got a bad batch. Did you ever take pics to send me ? I have been mowing over mentioning all the problems you guys out there are having and the solutions in my videos, Your issue would be great to mention on the things to look out for ! Thanks for letting me know and glad you found the problem !
Thankyou for your quick reply... I counted the frictions/steels in the old clutch pack "what was left of them" that was one of the clutches that burned up, and from what I could tell there was only enough pieces to count for 5 frictions and 5 steels, this units out of a 95 e250 van 2wd with a 5.8 so it must be on the older end of the spectrum, but thanx again your a real help...
Yep ! It sounds like you have it figured out. As long as the clearance is right. .030 to .060 max then you should be good 👍 thanks for the comments it helps anyone reading !
Ok gotcha! In that case if you are doing a good bit of manual shifting then yes take out the wave and add a clutch and steel like you said.
The reasoning is as your manually up shifting into second if there is a wave in the low-reverse the clutch takes longer to disengage because of the wave and can cause binding between 1st. and 2nd on the shift. Having all flat steels in there gives a quicker release. Just set it up on the tighter side of the spec and your good to go. Sounds like a beast of a truck!
Thank you for being thorough in these vids I’m in the process of building my 4r100 and you have shown some great things to watch out for so thanks again
Absolutely! Thanks for the comment!
Thanks Marshall
For showing us how to fix these issues, and what to look for.......great video !!!
Well done Marshall ! a pleasure watching this and it`s a real credit to your get it right attitude. Fantastic. Way to get her done!! Excellent
Regards,👍 The Panelbeater NZ
Thank you sir ! She put up a good fight but we always win the War here at Sanders Garage !
Marshall I got a question about overdrive end-play. In yer check, u pry up against the coast clutch drum, which shows the play between the drum and the thrust washer against the pump. BUT, what about the thrust bearing between the sun gear and the pump? I dont see any way to check this. When I was puttin mine together, I notice that when doing a trial install of the pump minus the gasket and sealing ring, the pump is floatin' on the sun gear to pump thrust bearing, just about 5 thou above the flange for the bolt holes. I had to mill down my center support to use the sonnax stabilizin' ring and it was within spec. Might wind up millin' the center support down some more.
update; I removed everything from the case, reinstalled ONLY the center support and overdrive/coast clutch assembly (minus clutches), the pump with NO gasket, and measure the gap between pump and case flange at 5 thou. Used gasket measures 15 thou. So I deduce ten thou of endplay along the center support-ODhousing-ODplanet-sungear-pump bearing axis. Reassembly WITH gasket and torquing the pump, then prying thru the OD feed bolt hole to the bottom of the OD housing UP (with pump side up) further confirms some very low level of end play, ten thou or less. Seems a little on the tight side and I may mill off five thou from the front of the center support bearing land to loosen things up a little. As u stress, ALWAYS check that endplay.
Yep ALWAYS check endplay and correct endplay when necessary. It’s one thing if not right will wipe out an otherwise perfect rebuild in quick manner. Sounds like you have a good handle on checking/correcting the situation. Biggest thing is checking ALL possibilities Parts/fitment etc. especially ones that were replaced for any reason that may be the culprit for endplay issues before machine anything as a last resort. Ten thou and up should be acceptable for the O/D endplay on these transmissions. Biggest thing is that there is some!
It’s pretty amazing how many people I’ve had on my channel/ helped on my channel with endplay issues on these transmissions. It’s all about working the situation until you get satisfactory results no matter what. A lot of guys have had issues with the O/D hub (the one that splines into the forward drum) not going all the way down contacting the bearing between it and the center support. Check every little detail before coming to a conclusion. Happy Building my friend! You got this
@@marshallsanders5672 got nother update; i milled 7 thou off the front lands of the center support, and this is the limit due to the shoulder on OD shaft putting axial load on the ball bearing if I remove more material. I get like 2 thou of endplay with this arrangement. So the options here are to turn down the shoulder of the OD housing PLUS mill down the center support face more, or use two front pump gaskets.I think I am gonna stack up a second front pump gasket. That should get me to around 12 thou or so. I never stacked two gaskets up before. Shouldnt be a problem I think, but lemme know if u got any thoughts. Thanks again for the help
Very interesting for sure! Not a whole bunch of ways to achieve the proper endplay. Milling more will work just have to make sure when doing Custom mods that ALL interferences get checked. I’ve never done the two gasket stack before, my gut makes me Leary of that but could possibly work. Only issue would be blowout between the two gaskets but if torqued and then retorqued properly after about ten minutes or so most likely be fine. I have flat sanded thrust washers many times before to achieve a desired endplay on many transmissions. That can be an option as well. Just don’t want to sand all of the oiling grooves out of the washer itself, not sure how much you could take off. As long as you have at least 10 thou endplay you should be fine. As you can see there is no right or wrong here just have to achieve the desired endplay. Let us know what you decide.
@@marshallsanders5672 Marshall, I was able to remove some more from the front bearing lands on the center support... I was in error about the OD shaft (aka center shaft) shoulder getting too close to the ball bearing. I hav milled off a total of 17 thou from the front lands and now have exactly 22 thou of endplay in the OD section, with ALL thrust washers and bearings in play. I measured it with an indicator on the input shaft, prying UP on the OD shaft, with no direct or forward drums in the way. I wasnt getting an accurate measurement after the first 7 thou milling operation bcuz I was relying on feel/sight instead of a indicator
That's a awesome solution
That's really interesting about the end play
Yes it was, but we found a solution that worked well. Trans is still alive and kicking out on the road!
@marshallsanders5672 that's been a wonderful build I have always been fac8nated with transmissions
How would I go about measuring the clearance on the intermediate clutch pack? Thanks
At 44:00 min. In this video I show how to do it.
@@marshallsanders5672 thank, idk how I missed that.
So I put my Low/reverse clutch pack in and measured the clearance with a filler gauge and I’m at .060? I know that’s on the high end anything I can do to make it tighter? Mine trans has a wave plate, 1997 E4OD.
So, I believe I found the solution which would be to buy thicker steels, my current steels are Kolene steels and the thicker ones are not. Can I mix Kolene and non Kolene steels?
Yeah .060 is a bit loose. It won’t cause any problems other than possibly delay in reverse engagement. Mixing steels is just fine to do. I like around .040 on that clutch. You can also remove the wave and stack steels in its place but sounds like your thicker steels will do the trick.
Thanks for the instructional videos. I was hoping you could elaborate on how the input and output shaft should turn after reassembly. My output shaft turns easily counterclockwise, but clockwise takes some effort. In the clockwise direction I can see its turning the sunshell.
Yes that is normal as turning it counterclockwise overruns the low sprag and makes it “easier” to turn. Clockwise locks the low sprag which causes more parts including the sun shell to turn therefore it is harder but normal. Just be sure to check your end plays as it is Vital they are right which I explain in the video !
You should have used a magic marker on the valve body and case where the center support is and a straightedge to show that after tightening the center support bolts the case wasn't distorted.
Just for educational purposes. Great video series thanks.
That is a great idea for sure! All the little things. Thanks for the Comment
I have no idea why the end play was off as much as it was I’m glad you found it , as far as the reverse piston return spring I must of seen that in some other shift kit , great video these are the reasons your building it and not me , on another note my heads aren’t back from the machine shop I’m hoping I get them this week so I can get this motor back together
That was a strange one ! I’ve had many endplay issues on other transmissions but never an E4OD. It’s usually a part that was just manufactured to tall or to short for that matter or mismatched parts but all was right in this thing . No big deal though. Technically I only took off .020 because that sealing washer is .010. In the grand scheme of things it wasn’t much just had to get enough to make it RIGHT. It’s happy now no harm no foul. Next video we should be wrapping it up !
Hey Marshall, first time builder assembling my 4r100 in my 2nd Gen Lightning. Is it a good idea to remove the cushion spring plate in the low/reverse section and replace it with an extra clutch and steel?
I’m assuming your talking about the forward clutch. As far as that goes I would only remove it if necessary meaning the stock 4 clutch pack is good for 500-550ft. lbs torque as long as the clutch pack is built properly/ flat steels/flat pressure plates/quality clutches etc. Anything over that torque you just remove the wave and add a clutch upping the torque capacity 25%. In doing so the engagement is firmer but not bad and there is a chance should the trans go into a max pressure situation upon forward engagement it can break the drum snapring out. Very rare but I’ve seen it happen. It’s a judgement call as far as that goes, hope this helps
@@marshallsanders5672 Thanks for the response Mr. Marshall. I’m actually talking about the low/reverse pack all the way at the rear of the case.
I’m definitely going to do it to the forward pack. The truck is a supercharged/ nitrous combo. It sees a lot of torque. I’m installing raybestos red clutches and a transgo tugger kit as well.
Didn’t see my text hit not sure if you got it, Yes it is a good idea to remove the wave if you are planning on manually shifting from 1st to 2nd. With the wave in there it takes longer for the clutch to release therefore it can cause a bind up on the shift. Micro second but long enough to strain the geartrain. Definitely use Trango Tugger kit for manual shifting and Alto Clutches or Borg Warner work well also.
@@marshallsanders5672 Thank you for the info, that’s exactly what I needed to know. Logically it makes sense but wanted to make sure from someone with experience.
There are two rear sprag races of different thickness. Otherwise it is extremely aesthetically pleasing to see it come together. Keep them coming!
What's needed so each drum gets a extra clutch? Is it worth it for 400hp 7.3. What rebuild kit would you recommend?
35 minutes into my Evolution video explains how to get an extra clutch in the drums. As far as your build you really don't need extra clutches with that HP just a rock solid rebuild should do fine in your case. Most all kits from different companies are the same TransTec kits. The difference is the clutches which I recommend BORG WARNER every time.
Any need to update the Coast Clutch pack, I did some measuring and I could go to 4 steels and 3 clutches from 2 steals, 2 clutches and 1 pressure plate?
Interesting thought there, It would always be better to have more clutches in that clutch pack as they are kind of puny. But definitely don't use a steel as a pressure plate ! The top Plate or "Pressure Plate" in any clutch stack must be thicker so it doesn't bend or flex otherwise you wouldn't get a solid clamp on all the clutches. If you were to use a Steel Plate as a Pressure Plate the Steel Plate would press against the snap ring on the outside but would just flex up on the inside causing uneven clamping on the entire clutch and cause clutch failure no matter how many clutches were in there if that makes sense.
Also you may have noticed in some of my videos the importance of making sure ALL of your Pressure Plates are "DEAD" Flat so you get an even Clamping force on the entire clutch when it applies, Just a note on that as well.
@@marshallsanders5672 yes I did notice the importance of flat pressure plates, thanks for the info. I will be sticking with the 2 clutches to keep the pressure plate.
Awesome job.
Thank You sir !
The superior shift kit is where the removal of every 3rd spring on the low/reverse piston return spring come from if I'm not mistaken.
Awesome! I was hoping that would surface in a comment at some point. Thank You ! Which theory do you support ?
I think keeping the springs is the right choice in almost every situation. I'm about to build my first e4od which has all 4r100 internals I plan to add a sixth clutch to the direct drum . I ordered some thicker snap rings math says I'll end up with .057 clearence. I'm on the fence cause the next ring makes it .074. Btw I gotta give u props for being extraordinary through in ur videos. Hats off sir
Yes sir ! .057 sounds perfect after a few hundred miles of break in it should “end up” around .062. They always get slightly looser after break-in. Thank you It’s the only way to do these videos in my opinion. I hate videos leaving someone still questioning things in the end. No matter the subject. Only downfall is they are a bit lengthy.
Hey Marshall, thanks for going through the trouble to film and I’m sure edit and upload these great informational videos. I have a 1997 f250 HD with a 460 in it. If you have time could you pass along some info about suppliers for the transmission internals. Thanks again for the hard work and wonderful videos!
Yes Sir your very welcome I’m glad all you guys out there are getting what you need out of my videos. They can be a bit long winded but it’s for a reason !
As far as the parts situation For 90% of my parts these days I go to 3 main suppliers WIT “Whatever it Takes” transmission parts, “PA Cargo” , or “TRANSTAR “ they are the best these days for getting me quality on time parts in my opinion. It is very hit and miss on good parts these days and a person must be very wary of the parts there putting inside there transmissions. PS I will also use at times PATC for many high performance H/D parts and Converters they are second to none but Very Expensive. Hope this helps !
I think I missed something in the air check part of this, the kit I got from Transtar Ind. came with a paper showing the air check locations and you kinda did those checks as you were assembling but now that this unit is all assembled other than the valve body I'm trying to air check and I'm not getting that same "clack" that I got when stacking gears and drums on the bench, also one of thr ports that we air checked a clutch at says it's a lube port and how do you air check a lube hole, what sound or whatever am I looking for when pressurizing a lube circuit in a trans? Maybe you could do a short segment on air checking, what to expect and or hear when doing final air checks Ect...
Doug, Yes it can be a bit confusing on the air checks, The lube circuit will just "HISS" air like a big leak because it is an open circuit just feeding bushings and geartrain parts. I do a full aircheck segment in the next video I made "Transgo tugger kit install" To clear up confusion around this procedure. It is about 59 minutes into that video ! Check it out
Thanks for all the info and videos on the E4OD, I was wondering where you are getting your rebuild kit and parts from? Thanks Again.
Tim, I generally go to WIT "Whatever it Takes" transmission parts, PA Cargo, or Transtar for 90% of my parts. Transtar is more expensive for basically the same parts but sometimes they are the only ones that have exactly what I need. It is very hit and miss these days getting parts but they should be able to get you what you need !
@@marshallsanders5672 thanks for your help
@@marshallsanders5672 another question for you, the E4OD never came with 6 pinion planets correct?
Tim as far as I know by 1997 there were no 6pinion planet E4OD’s made. In the transition to the 4R100 In 1998 I believe a few had just the 6pinion “Front” planet setup in the super duty F-350 setups but hit and miss ! The glory of it nowadays is the E4OD can easily be retrofitted to the full 6 pinion setup in any super heavy duty situation. Just paying the price is the hard part.
Yea handing over the money is always the hard part, but it’s worth it in the end for the longevity and strength. Thanks again.
How much psi are you using to do the air check
I use a variable flow air nozzle so it’s probably around 100psi max. I usually just “burp” the handle that way I can tell whether the clutch is holding air well or not. Good question thanks for the comment
@@marshallsanders5672 great Thank you for the reply
If I have my case sitting on the bell housing and I try to spin the output shaft, I can’t spin it by hand but with pliers I can. Counter clock way is easier then clock ways. Should I pull it apart again?
That sounds normal as far as being able to turn it but did you check the endplay's front and rear. 45 min into the video shows how to check them. If you have endplay front and rear your good to go but MUST have some endplay. I had and endplay issue with this trans and at 53 min. shows where i have correct endplays.
So my rear end is off, the direct drum is pushed up against the sun shell with no gap.
I have it completely together, when I pull it apart can I reuse the separator plate gaskets since I have to take that stuff off to get to the feed bolts. Or do I buy new ones? Also when I pull the feed bolts out do I need to put anything on them since they were already installed once? I’m just wanting to make sure I do it right.
You can reuse it all as long as you don’t tear the gaskets they’ll be fine. Sounds like you may have put the 2nd sprag race in backward. I talk about this in one of my videos ! My “building the guts” video
Yea I heard you talk about that but I don’t think that I did, but we will find out. I will let you know what I find, thank for such a quick response. I wish I would have found your videos sooner.
I started loading the guts into my Bronco's tranny and discovered that whoever rebuilt it left out the upper sunshell bushing.
Only one(1) bushing in the sunshell!
Sheer luck that I noticed it.
It's amazing that a supposedly "professionally rebuilt transmission" could be missing something like that.
Thank you for putting that in piece by piece.
Your double take @19:03 is what saved me from putting it back together with the missing bushing.
Its all about taking your time and paying attention to everything Good catch ! Nothing surprises me anymore as so many more people are having bad days/Non attentive days Etc. This is where building it yourself really can make all the difference.
@@marshallsanders5672 I found another thing today.
The pump gasket that was on it is different from my new one.
The new one matches all the holes with no extra cut outs, whereas the old one has an extra oblong cut out and an extra round cutout.
Not sure if that is why I had the leak...
@@kratosdisciple4637 Interesting ! I know of only one gasket for all 89 to 05 E4OD's and 4R100's. Possibly you just had one that wasn't manufactured correctly. Definitely the lesson here is to pay attention to EVERYTHING and take NOTHING for granted these days. Good Catch !
Possibly a c6 pump to case gasket been a long long time since I was in 1 of those so can't remember
Marshall I've learned so much from your videos (just a weekend warrior) . when I went to air test center support , Facing support bolts right opening operated clutches ,Left bolt just sounded like it blew right on through which clutch pack does it operate apparently have a bad seal
Nope your good ! That hole that leaks profusely with no clutch apply is the lube circuit which lubes the front portion of the rear gear train. Your good to go !
@@marshallsanders5672 thanks had me worried
So... what does it mean when putting in the low reverse clutch, 6 steeles, 6 frictions, thick pressure plate, and DAMN no room for snap tring, almost completely covers snap ring slot???
That just boils down to what changed from the original setup ?
Did you change the apply piston, steels,clutches. The apply piston could be taller, the steels could be thicker, the clutches could be thicker, just compare everything from what came out of it. What year transmission is it ? Some early ones and 6cyl. Small V-8’s had 5 steels 5 clutches.
I finally got the entire transmission reassembled.
Couldn't have done it without these videos.
But....
When I went to put the torque converter on, I checked the input shaft("always spinning") and it doesn't spin.
Is that normal? Or did I mess something up when I put the pump in?
The output shaft spins normally.
Put Vice grips on it and try to spin it. I must spin or something is wrong
@@marshallsanders5672 Just went and opened it back up.
When I did my air test on the overdrive I had my compressor set @110 psi.
It must have lifted the overdrive section just enough that when I did a second air test the bottom clutch caught on the underside of the overdrive hub and completely warped the clutch.
Either that or I didn't have the overdrive section completely seated?
Lesson learned....
Yes Sir ! This is where Checking end plays are SO important because if there is way to much endplay it’s missing something or if not enough or binding up everything isn’t seated like you said with the clutch not being all the way splined. Biggest thing is you caught it on the “Bench” and didn’t have to pull it back out of the truck ! Good Stuff my friend !
@@marshallsanders5672 Yep. You show it in your video.
I got over eager and moved right to installing the pump.
Rookie mistake.
Won't happen again.
Can only imagine what would have happened to my transmission had I started it. That friction plate would have disintegrated and sent pieces through the whole trans.
Bad Ass ! All that matters is you Caught it on the bench ! So important ! Otherwise it would have chewed up and sent metal all through the trans like you said and the 2 hours of work catching it on the bench would have turned into 15 hours of WTF and that’s where transmission building gets difficult. My videos are ALL about getting it right the FIRST time and from there it’s just minor adjustments if necessary! Good Stuff !
I have an 93 f150 with an I6 . Everything works perfect except "D". it shifts but shimmies and stalls when gas peddle is pressed. Any ideas? Greatly appreciated.
Thanks for these videos. I'm 2 years into being self employed. My work truck is a 7.3 f250. With how times are I can't afford to pay someone to rebuild my transmission (I'm not even sure thats what it needs). I'm hoping if I can't find someone who has seen the issue in having and can give me advise. That I will be able to rebuild it effectively on my own.
The issue in having is one day after at operating temp. I started it. Put it in drive and nothing happened. It didnt engage. Me thinking I just didn't actually have it in drive,I out it back in park. Then drive again. And nothing. I tapped the throttle and when it hit about 800 rpm. It engaged. I let off the throttle and at the same point it disengaged again.
I pulled it down into manual 1 and it engaged immediately. I then drive it about 1/4 mile shifting manually and it shifted through all the gears.
Now in drive when I slowed down to pull back into my driveway. As soon as it got down to that 600ish rpm point it disengaged. I pulled it down into manual 1 and it engaged immediately. I pulled it in and parked it.
The next day cold I started it. Put it in drive and it acted like nothing was wrong with it. It engaged. I then put it in park. Let it. Get to operating temp. Put it in drive and agsin, nothing. Tapped the throttle and again at that 800ish rpm poj tit engaged.
I onky know what I have learned in the past few days about these transmissions. I honestly don't know engaged exacrly about how they work to diagnose it.
Very interesting sounds like possibly pump is losing its prime or line pressure is too low at idle. Manual low engages probably fine because the computer spikes the pressure in that gear. I would do a line pressure check and see what it is at idle when not engaging. Line pressure PSI should be constant 70psi at idle. Also make sure the filter is up in the pump if it’s sucking any air it could cause those symptoms.
Old school problems like that with no engagement til you rev the engine is just a plain worn out pump but the E4OD generally doesn’t wear out the pump but can’t rule it out!
@@marshallsanders5672 ill grab a filter and pull the pan. I had read somewhere or maybe you said it that its possible for fluid to leak by those selinoids.
Is that a possibility? Idk. I'm going to start with pulling the selinoid pack plug and checking for fluid. After that I'm lost. However I'll take your advise.
Although once I have the info I'll have no clue what to do with it
Edit. Idk of it matters but the truck was at operating temp the first time this happened. I had been driving it all morning
I went out and started it. Let it get to operating temp. Turned the over drive off while in drive. And it went into gear. Idk what gear cause I didn't want to smoke any of the clutches. It definitely did something while in drive. At idle. Turning the over drive off.
@@marshallsanders5672 BTW. Man thanks for the videos. I learned more in a few hours of binge watching your videos then days and days of reading and watching other peoples videos.
I shared a random one just to direct peopel to your channel. Of all creators made videos how you do it would make things way faster for people like me to learn.
Ok lots of info there, The biggest thing I noticed in what your telling me is you said when you turn the O/D off it goes right into gear. Do that a few many times and see if it is consistent with loosing gear and engaging.
What happens when you turn the O/D off is the computer engages the Coast Clutch. With the Coast clutch engaged it Overrides the O/D input Roller Clutch which must hold to go into gear. If the O/D roller clutch isn’t holding it won’t engage unless the Coast Clutch is on.
It could just be a mechanical problem with that O/D roller clutch. Possibly just the little rpm change is forcing it to lock. If it is consistent with this it almost has to be the roller clutch. And when you put it into Manual First it applies the coast clutch as well so it makes sense the O/D roller clutch is most likely the cause. My first thought was hydraulic but it very well could be mechanical.
You make it look easy. It took me a lot longer to get everything in right. Assume you measured the center support and the upgrade wear ring for proper thickness? If the center support was milled too thin or wear ring was not thick enough that would cause the loss of clearances, right?
Also a good video would be how to pressure and vacuum test this transmission. All test ports air pressures etc. My ATSG 4R100 manual had me testing a feed hole that was actually not a feed and made me tear down transmission 2 times until I got my Ford Manual out and seen the ATSG error. Even the Sonic directions differed from the ATSG manual on air test ports.
My 4R100s have a different type of sun drum and the ears sit on the sun drum. Will this make the rear clearances different for a 4r100?
Yes you are correct about the upgraded center support. The snap ring was .052 thick and they machined exactly .052 off of the center support. That was my first go to but it measured fine. There were a lot of parts changed in this transmission and I literally miked every sing part and nothing showed thicker than any of the “factory” parts I had on hand. A very Unusual problem but the fact that I was able to machine it down and get the clearance I need is what really matters! Thanks for the comment !
Yes that is a shame the ATSG book had a fopa in it. It is very frustrating when when the information isn’t correct because it throws you completely off! I will do a full air check on this trans and show it on my next video ! Good Idea.
Your clearances should be the same no matter what type of parts are in it. .020 to .030 rear unit clearance is optimal. Even if the shell is touching the Direct drum the Total rear unit endplay is what’s important.
Have you ever used an extra od clutch snap ring from an e4od as the ring used for the center support update mine checks in at .077. Considering give this a try I cant see any issues with removing .025 more from the center support. Would love to pick ur brain about some of the ideas and issues I have run in to.
@@darrells4970 no I don’t see a reason not to. It sounds like your clearances are on point. Just the machining part as it would have to be done by a machine shop you know of. It seems youAre just looking to get Extra support in that area other than the already updated kit companies sell. Must be a powerhouse this thing is going behind !
Damn out of the blue a guy sent me the ATSG book that had the wrong air test port! It showed the Intermediate LUBE circuit as the Intermediate Clutch circuit. Crazy but misprints happen more than a person would think! I see where you were confused
So I've got this customer who tells me one day that the E40D transmission I rebuilt shifts beautifully and then a few days later that it is slipping.
Then he tells me later that it's back to shifting great again and not to long after that, it slipping again.
This time he tells me that the overdrive light is on. Any ideas besides the installer did not do a proper trans flush and now there is crap from the lines that have gotten into the system?
Hey marshal I watch a few of your videos and I have rebuilt 4 transmissions using those videos
Damn ! Very impressive, you Obviously are paying attention and “Get It” Good Stuff ! Thanks for the comment.
My friend are always stumped when I tell them about it
That is the good stuff ! Keep on truckin’ you clearly have a gift for it ! Just share as much knowledge as you can is all I ask from you !
@@marshallsanders5672 I forgot to mention my uncle and my dad help me lift the parts out because I can't get a good grip on them
Good stuff teamwork and doing whatever it takes !
Makes me wonder if the two worn out bearings you found earlier might have been a symptom of the endplay issues you discovered at your final check. Didn't catch if that sealing washer was something new you put in or if it was previously installed. Whatever the case, between your vids and the transmission bench vids I'm talking myself into rebuilding the transmission in my recently acquired 95 E350... Thanks for sharing your knowledge and expertise!
That Endplay issue was very unique in nature, I've never had that happen before. The bearings weren't bad enough to cause any endplay problems but it is what it is ! Thanks for the comments Sounds like your ready to build your trans. "Happy Building" my friend
Hi marshall, I'm currently building an E4OD going into a 1991 F350 Diesel. Because it is an HD vehicle and I plow snow with it I'm really beefing it up.
This includes upgrading the whole rear gear train to the the 4R100 6 pinion planets.
I got all of the guts together and ended up with the same exact issue on the rear end play!
I took everything apart down to the rear planet set, which I had upgraded to the stamped steel drum so I could get 6 pinions, but you didn't in your trans. Endplay with just those still in the case was good. I checked all of my thrust washers and bearings and everything was seated properly. I checked the center support and I got the same 3.130 that you had. I chucked it in my lathe and took off about 0.028.
Put it back together and now I have about 0.018" endplay. That's a little tight but l'm happy with it. We both changed the forward planet for a 6 pinion so I believe the answers lies in those components.@@marshallsanders5672
@@nathantjapkes2155very interesting for sure! Only the second time I’ve heard of rear endplay issues that weren’t obvious 🤔. The fact you are paying attention enough to check the endplay is key! Good catch and that fix worked just fine for me to get the endplay correct. .018” should be fine key is that there is some endplay and not way sloppy, sounds like a strong unit your building there. Had you not caught that big problems would have occurred!
Checking endplay is just as important as putting the filter in on every single rebuild every time, no exceptions!
Pretty cool you have a lathe to chock it up and get it done. I’m pretty old school but the end result is all that matters however a person makes it happen! Good stuff! Happy building my friend! Thanks for the comment!
Got the pump in but now checking the output shaft only turns one way?
Put a large pliers on it and try it’s harder to turn one way than it is the other which is normal. One way it overruns the sprag but the other you actually spin the gear train making it harder. Did you check your endplays ? What was wrong with the pump not going in ?
Marshall I just installed my rebuild on e4od and followed your videos,after shifting through gears to get fluid to everything let it warm up shifted to reverse worked perfect put it in drive and engine bogged down and have no forward gears what could I have done wrong? only thing I know that I did was put one of the bigger ball on top of the springin valve body could that be it? thanks for all your help
Oh no that’s not the way it’s supposed to go ! Did you try ALL manual gears including the stalk cancel button ? Bogged down like something was applying in forward gear. I don’t think the checkball on the spring would cause a problem if reverse was working good ! I’m assuming your talking about the EPC relief pressure spring in the rear of the case ? Is the no forward condition like neutral engine revving or is it locked up won’t move situation?
@@marshallsanders5672Sanders Locked up won't move in forward gears. yes, in the back of case on spring. in 4 wheel drive reverse works fine ,no forward gears locked up engine bogs down.
@@garyrodgers7442 Without being there is the hardest part of trying to diagnose it. Does the engine rev with no clutch application in park and neutral ? This check will tell you whether there is something Mechanically locked Without hydraulic pressure being involved. At this point I would suspect something Valve Body Related Checkballs in the wrong place/ A valve in backwards,
What parts did you change out that could have been different and have created this ?
What was the reason you pulled it out in the first place ?
Had it been rebuilt before ?
What year transmission is it ?
Did it air check fine ?
Did it go together well or did you fight anything ?
Just have to work the problem until you find the reason.
That checkball with spring is the EPC pressure relief valve If it were not working correctly it would just not build pressure past the 70 psi idle pressure. That wouldn't cause this problem. Unless the solenoid pack didn't bolt tight to the case there because the checkball was jammed tight in the case not allowing proper clamping of the solenoid pack. Then I'm not sure how it would act but you get the idea.
@@marshallsanders5672 Thanks Marshall, I did a complete standard rebuild no added parts, new solenoid pack. I was pulling a heavy load in deep (I know) mud and it locked up doing just as it is now except then I had no reverse either most all clutches burnt .as far as I can tell it has not been rebuilt. this is a 1997 F 250 heavy duty, build date 9/97 good on air checkand went together fine no problems. Would the selector switch have any effect on this? just reaching
Ok gotcha! Sounds like a standard rebuild other than being all burnt up and you didn’t “build” the problem into the unit so to speak. Very unusual what’s going on here.
There is no reaching at this point it’s all about brainstorming the problem into reality if you will. Can’t rule out the selector switch but a few factors have to happen for that to be the cause. Without getting to technical have you been able to scan this truck ? It is imperative to scan it and see what the computer is doing and seeing. If the computer is seeing a different gear than what your selecting with the shifter then yes it could cause issues like this. For this transmission to lock-up in any forward gear it has to be applying two different gears at once WITH either the low/reverse clutches on in any gear but man. Low OR the man. 2nd band on in any other gear but 2nd. Was the band burnt up? Was the low/rev clutches burnt up ? I’m assuming you tried ALL manual gears with the same locked-up result ? Was there any STUCK valves in the valvebody did you completely disassemble the valve body ?
What is the lube you are brushing on?
It is a combination of STP oil treatment and transmission fluid ! It ABSOLUTELY works the BEST ! I’ve tried it all ! 50% STP and 50 % trans fluid!
@@marshallsanders5672 Thanks. I'm dropping the E4OD out of my 91 Bronco tomorrow.
One thing I've learned over the decades is how to recognize someone that really knows what they are doing.
I'll be mimicking you're techniques to the letter.
Awesome thanks for the comments ! You got this !
What makes a direct drum teeth break
I was worried about special tools