Trailer Breakdown | The War of the Rohirrim
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- I casually look at The War of the Rohirrim animation trailer and talk about the possibilties, both good and bad, that can be picked up from what it gives us.
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Okay, I've made a note about the volume. I'll try to have it fixed for the next one. Sorry about this, folks. I'm learning this new process as I go, and there are gonna be some kinks until I get it all figured out.
The biggest concern that Tolkienstans have with this -- and I don't blame them -- is that Hera is an unnamed character in the story of Helm Hammerhand, so this is completely made up. One assumes that the story of Helm will be somewhere in the background but the problem is that this "Hera" was not the focus of that story. I'll give it a chance, just like I gave the "Rings of Poo" a chance, but... most of us want a Tolkien adaptation about what Tolkien wrote, not one crafted (dare I say it?) for "modern audiences". Naturally, we're a bit cautious about this one.
@@geminicricket4975 I fully agree with the sentiments in this comment. I'm willing to give it a chance, but I sure would love to see an actual adaptation of something Tolkein has done.
To be fair though, I can see why they went with “Hera”.
Narratively speaking, the movie has to end with Freyleaf, but before his appearance we have Helm. There’s a period between the two where there’s not really a central figure to follow in the final act of the movie (before Freyleaf), at least as far as I can remember.
“Hera” ended up being the perfect narrative device to remedy this. An unnamed side character whose fate is left unknown (but most likely dies anyway to follow the lore), but no specific point to really set it.
So “Hera” might’ve been conceived for various reasons that ended up meshing well together as a concept both for the narrative and for marketing.
Because she is an unnamed character, anything she does can seemingly dance around the lore without outright breaking or retconning anything as long as she remains within the lore. All the director really decided, from what was shown so far, was to have “Hera” supposedly survive longer and help on the sides until the end when Freyleaf arrives. Her unclear narrative fate allows her to be a flexible character.
From what I assume, she convinces her father to let her act as a messenger for reinforcements against Wulf’s invasion. She says she’s their fastest rider to help justify not wasting a single man who could help bolster the defenses, she never calls herself the strongest or most talented, only “the fastest rider”. And realistically speaking, if you need reinforcements, you would want to send a fast rider to deliver the message.
She still arrives and everything more or less plays out the same. The only difference is that near the end, when Helm’s Deep is being sieged. Hera tries to stop Wulf in one last counter offensive. And since it’s during the great winter, Wulf is most likely trying to take Helm’s Deep and annihilate what remains before reinforcements arrive.
The only thing they could really do to throw the entire lore out of wack and be COMPLETELY discredited, would be Hera defeating Wulf.
But having Hera connect Helm’s story to Freyleaf’s, and witnessing Helm’s story through a side character, isn’t too bad of an idea.
Essentially, Hera is the main character of the movie, but a side character in the actual conflict there to witness, chronicle, and pass on the story of Helm to Freyleaf.
Helm carries the plot of the movie from Point A to Point B, but Freyleaf is at C, so “Hera” was needed to bring Point B to Point C, but needed to have some development and character during A-to-B for the audience for when she carries the plot from B-to-C. And as a character that’s essentially a blank slate that fades into the background with a relatively unclear fate, she was the perfect choice as she _could_ bend the lore while remaining relatively lore-friendly.
There are few scenes of contention I won’t deny exist; however I would like to state that one MAJOR difference between the Japanese script and the English script that seems to cause a lot of conflict at the moment is one specific line.
In the moment where Helm is talking to Hera beyond the gate at Helm’s Deep, (supposedly just before the third act where Hera is left to protect the Deep), in the English trailer, the line is, “You have the power to rule the world”; but in the Japanese trailer, the original line is, “You are the King’s daughter. You are our people’s hope.” Which given the context of the scene actually makes sense and is a heartfelt line, as it’s a father saying goodbye to his daughter but encouraging her to remain strong despite being alone. Whereas the English line… doesn’t make any sense.
So there might be a problem there…
All I’m gonna say is that Hera, as a narrative device for an anime movie based on established lore, is an interesting choice, and as a character, at least deserves a shot.
There’s an exchange of words in the film, “We were soldiers” where one guy (a new father) ask’s his colonel, “what do you think about being a soldier and a father”, and I love this because, his colonel (the person that leads them) says, “I would hope that being good at one makes me better at the other”. That’s such an amazing line. And I think if some writers these days incorporated that into what they’re trying to make today it could shift the whole tone of the film. Think about being a parent enhances your leadership abilities and being a leader helps you become a better parent. That’s good writing.
@theashrook6129 I love that! You are so right. It seems likenthere is less thoight put into the subtext of dialogue in fantasy, these days. It seems that the folks in Hollywood believe that fantasy is enjoyed because of the fantastical elements, but great fantasy is usually far more than spectacle.
I love listening to your thorough thoughts and breakdowns on these things. great job.
Wow! Thank you 🥰 I love thinking about stories. Making these videos helps me sort those thoughts out and engage with others. It's way better than sitting alone with a manuscript and writing notes in the margins. Haha!
Good to see you back. I would be excited for this movie...if it was about Helm Hammerhand, who sounds really interesting, the greatest king in Rohan's history. But of course, this movie is about his daughter, who AFAIK is mentioned in just ONE LINE of the Simirillion.
@@thomasciuffreda8783 I agree that it's a shame they didn't pick the most noted character, but I'm not against a true attempt to portray a good story. I just watched the Japanese trailer for this, and it feels way different. Way better.
You mentioned that the "tone" of the English and Japanese trailers is quite different.
I would take this, and ask... "What does that tell you?"
To me, it sounds like they tried to "tone down" certain aspects of the movie that they know won't appeal to the Japanese audience.
Likewise, we already know how marketing people (etc) feel about trying to appeal to the Anglo audience...
"Here's our slop. You'll take it, and be grateful for it, or..."
Perhaps I'm mistaken... but I have no hope.
Their choice of main protagonist tells us something about their intent.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS It's not just the most noted character: it's the most important event of the reign of one of the most song-worthy kings in Rohan's history, the one everyone interested in the history of the Rohirrim wants to see, because he has captured their imagination. That makes this feel like a bait and switch to fans when they put less focus on him and his nephew Fréaláf in order to give an original character escapades with an Eagle and the Watcher in the Water, neither of which should even be there because they are not part of Rohan's story.
Helm's story comes from the appendices, not a footnote. I'd suggest reading Appendix A, "the House of Eorl" to get more of an idea what Helm's story is (his section starts "Of the Kings of the Mark between Eorl and Théoden most is said of Helm Hammerhand" if you don't want to read it all). Also "The Stewards" up to Beren's reign to get an idea of the setup and the events during the time period. But a it roughly goes like this:
* Fréca was a rich and powerful man with Dunlending blood, but who claimed descent from Fréawine, Helm's great great grandfather. Helm mistrusted him, but called him to councils given his status. One council, Fréca shows up with many men and asks for Helm's daughter to marry his son. Helm insults him, and when Fréca insults him back he says they can deal with it after the council. Afterwards, he leads him out of Edoras, just the two of them without entourage, and after a few words he kills him with a single blow, then proclaims his son Wulf and their men enemies of Rohan.
* Four years later, Easterlings attack Rohan, Wulf sees his chance and attacks Edoras with the Dunlendings. Gondor at this time was being attacked by Corsairs from Umbar and Harad in the south. Some of these Corsairs landed as far afield as the Isen, and these had joined with Wulf's people. Neither country could come to the other's aid. Helm was driven back to the Hornburg with his youngest son, and his eldest was killed defending Edoras. His nephew Fréaláf took what he could of their people to refuge in Dunharrow.
* The Long Winter. 5 months of snow. All sides suffered. Helm's youngest son takes men out for a foray, but they never return. Helm starts going out alone, clad in white and without weapon, stalking ans slaying many Dunlendings in the snow. They come to fear him, believing if he had no weapon no weapon could touch him, and if he could not find food he ate men. The sound of his horn echoing in the Deep would make them flee.
* One night he did not return, and the next morning there was the sunlight in long days. Helm stood on the Dike. He was dead, but unbent, and none of the Dunlendings dared go near. It became legend that "the horn was still heard at times in the Deep and the wraith of Helm would walk among the foes of Rohan and kill men with fear."
* The winter broke soon after, and Fréaláf took a small company to Edoras. He surprised and slew Wulf in Medulseld. The Entwash became a fen in the thaws, and the Easterlings perished or withdrew. Gondor, having not suffered so badly during the winter, had fended off the Corsairs and came to Rohan's aid, from both the east and west (presumably meaning their ships had taken out the Corsairs at Lefnui and the Isen).
* The remaining Dunlendings were driven out before the end of the year, and Fréaláf was crowned king. Helm was removed from the Hornburg and laid in the ninth mound of kings. The simbelmynë grew there so thick the mound appeared snowclad. The Hornburg became known as Helm's Deep.
* Saruman turned up at the coronation. Beren the steward made Saruman custodian of Isengard, as that was still part of Gondor, and everyone was happy with the arrangement as Rohan was severely weakened by war and famine, and it seemed they now had a strong ally guarding them on their the Western border. Saruman was happy because he was almost certainly hoping the palantír was still there (though at this point his motivations were probably still largely good).
So we do have the skeleton of the story, with some pretty important beats already laid out. A war against three enemies nations, a long, hard winter. Helm is made to be a legendary figure both to the Rohirrim and to the Dunlendings, who long feared him even after his death. The weather changing with his death, as well as the fortunes of the war. The flowers grew thickest on his mound. It's very much in keeping with the sagas Tolkien loved so much.
That is an awful lot to live up to. Can WotR achieve that with the daughter as the focal point? Possibly, and the Japanese trailer gives more hope than the English one. But you can understand why people who know the lore here are worried? Because while a few of the events are shown, the overall structure feels like a very different story to the one that was hoped for.
@@Nyet-Zdyes I really just want something good. 🤞🏻
What annoys me most about War of the Rohirrim, even above taking an unnamed character mentioned in half a sentence and making her the lead seemingly above her brothers, cousin, and father, is Haleth was RIGHT THERE. If they wanted a girlboss character, Haleth was right f-ing there! She was based off the Amazon warriors, for Pete's sake! She was the one to adapt for their girlboss story.
@annienunyabiz6627 no idea who she is, but I do have to wonder how much of a girl-boss story this will be. I just watched the Japanese trailer, and it was so much better than the English one. Gives me hope of a more dimensional story and characters.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS You should look her up. Haleth was the daughter of Haldad, leader of the Haladin. Her father and brother died to Orcs, and she stepped up and held them off for 7 days until Caranthir showed up with an army to drive them off. He was so impressed with her, he offered her land under the protection of the Elves, but she told him no because she wanted to maintain her independence.
@@annienunyabiz6627 Oh! Haleth's people! My favorite human group!
Phonetic Pronunciation: roh-HEER-im
IPA: /roʊˈhɪrɪm/
breakdown:roʊ:
like the "ro" in "row"
hɪr: like the "hir" in "hero," but shortened (like a quick "here" without stretching the "e")
ɪm: like the "im" in "him"
Love your channel, your content and the exquisite way you rant without ranting about the things we -the nerds- love. It's like a peaceful rage 😂. Thank you!
@Rodel-Ituralde peaceful rage is how I roll! 🤪 I always try to be fair..... unless something truly idiotic is done. Then, I say the material is fair game for shredding.
Amber trying soo hard not to say "girl-boss." 😄 Tolkien left a whole history of Rohan, so the political intrigue should be easy to pull off. In the "Beowulf" saga, Hrothgar's wife masters the court, soothing tensions between Beowulf and Unferth. She shows herself a strong and cunning queen, keeping the peace, and rallying the men against Grendal. Tolkien wrote Galadriel and Eowen in such a manner. As you say, this anime has a chance to make the MC that way, instead of a girl-boss. I believe these characters are actual Tolkien characters, as I recall mention of a King of Rohan killing the "wild-man" king with only his fists, starting the unreconcilable rift bewteen them. (We see these tribemen in The Two Towers- the wild men Sauroman enlists.) So they may just be using the actual contextual background, which seems to comprise all the parts and potential being praised.
@@christiansorensen7567 lol! Actually. I completely brain-farted the term. Lol. I seriously couldn't remember what it was.
The joy of unexpected content - limitless 🙂 what a lovely surprise! From what I understand, the events in this are set in the history laid out in the huge appendix at the end of the Lord of the Rings. Will keep an open mind.
Yes. It's supposed to be about Helm Hammerhand and the start of Theoden's line. The entire story is about a page and a half (dependent on your individual copy,) and "Hera" appears in half a sentence and is never named nor told what happened to her. The sentence is just about Freca asking Helm for his daughter's hand for his own son, Wulf, which Helm found impudent because Freca came and went when he felt like it, disregarding his king's summons. So Helm made fun of him for being fat, Freca demanded a duel, and Helm killed him in one punch. Absolutely nothing is ever said about his daughter beyond the marriage line, not even whether she lived or died in the war or winter.
@@annienunyabiz6627 Cool, let's see what they do with it. Hopefully they won't try to change the nature of the races, i.e. loving orc families.
@davidrobertson5996 My hope is that they convey Tolkein's spirit, and don't try to tell a story he would not have liked.
@annienunyabiz6627 This could be a good thing. This means they have lots of freedom to tell an original story. The challenge is only in making is a story that honor's Tolkein.
@@davidrobertson5996 lol. Yeah. No kidding.
When they first announced they were making an animated movie about Helm I was excited. When they announced the date of the premiere I called my sister to reserve the date so we could go to the cinema. When I saw the trailer I called it off, especially after hearing other non-trailer promo info. I have no reason to monetarily incite them to make further abominations within the setting.
I really don't understand why is it so hard to bring to screen the setting without any additions (motifications required due to the change of the medium notwithstanding).
@markolukic7824 have you seen the Japanese trailer? It is far more balanced. I am always willing to give a story a try. I never would have thought a creature feature director could do LOTR, but Fellowship is superb!
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS I actually saw the Japanese version first so it was a downhill experience for me. If it was the trailers by themselves I might have given them a little bit more benefit of the doubt but reading an official statement that Hera would be "searching for a legendary tribe of female warriors" to help her just broke what little beneficence I had towards the movie.
That being said as a fan of fantasy and Tolkien, and a writer I will see the thing of for no other reasons that to learn from their mistakes but I will be doing it from the comfort of the high seas.
The promotion of the movie would need to do something extraodinary or I would need to get a glowing recomendation from people I know and respect to change my opinion amd pay to see the thing.
@markolukic7824 From thw high seas? Are you a sailor, sir?
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS Sadly I am not, merely a casual fan of the Caribbean martime traditions 😁
I believe the term is "girlboss" and I agree, it's getting very tedious as of late. Particularly if they're shown to have no flaws, act bullheaded and insubordinate (but end up being proven right) and/or they're surrounded by incompetent dudes to elevate her own genius.
This trailer has given me a sense of anticipation but also trepidation. If they fudge it up then we'll have poor LotR adaptations from both Amazon AND WB which could put the kibosh on future Middle Earth stories.
@GingerBeardedGeek I agree. This would me the final coffin nail, if they screw it up.
Hope dies last. 😅 But the trailer really hard implies that it will be going the "Brave" way.
😭😭😭 Say it isn't so!
I'm on the pessimistic side for this. There's way too many movie and TV writers that think a strong female characters means she needs to have a sword and go kill men in battle to prove how "strong" she is. Which is a very simplistic and shallow view of strength, but also, in series such as Rings of Power, Galadriel would be a thousand times stronger if she was allowed to use magic. So depth of character, depth of themes and logic are sacrificed , just to make the female character look "strong".
The trailer didn't showed anything to escape that boring trope, so I'm not in any rush to go see this.
@Left4Coragem try the Japanese trailer. I just watched it, and SO wish I had reviewed it, instead. It looks far more promising.
Yay!
@@darkwingduck9589 yeehaw!
🤗
@@toddjackson3136 🥰
Always enjoy your positive attitude (except for mosquitos lol) 💜
@@tryp8578 lol. I have a ton of footage I cut out of just me swatting mosquitos. I might release a blooper reel at some point.
many thanks for your thoughts,after so many disappointments,l’ll try to keep an open mind and give this entry a chance 🤔
0:49 "The War of the Rohirrim is gonna do the same thing that Rings of Power did..."
Oh, I really hope it doesn't.
@@Hawksmoor42 same.
I'm sorry but based on what I've read and seen about it, it will.
❤
😊
Another great video
@@MrAngerissues1 Thanks! I do my best.
I love the BY studio.
You are very optimistic... I see too many red flags.
We shall see.
@@NameNotAChannel I am always hopeful that someone who truly knows how to honor the material will get a chance to do that.
Thumbs up 😁
@@floydsalazar7951 Thanks😊
👍
🥰
unfortunately "you could rule the world" is a thought only evil Sauron would have (think of kneeling to the hobbits at the end of LoTR). it looks like a complete miss to the spirit of Tolkien
@shimtest very true. But for some reason.... I think of that line in Gladiator: "what a Caesar you would have been!"
🙏
@@anypercentdeathless ☝🏻
I'm less excited, but I still plan on watching.
@@Jremyisawsome1111 Cautious optimism is always wise.
When I’m ready to edit my manuscript, I am totally hiring you
Haha! You are very welcome to send an email an see if we are a good fit.
I feel like it should be fair to mention that despite it being written by the West, it’s being directed by a pretty good Japanese director.
However, the East and West have always been at odds regarding a few things especially regarding translation as of recent. But that’s important to mention as it pertains to a severe difference between the two trailers.
For the time being let’s disregard the whole “girlboss Hera” thing, to be honest, I think it originates from how she’s portrayed by the English trailer and how certain “people” are clinging to that and making her image worse. But narratively speaking, she’s an interesting choice, whether she was a good choice or not lies in the execution of her role and I can have a whole explanation regarding that. All you need to know is that “Hera” might’ve been selected as the main character _because_ her role in the lore is loose and empty. Because of that she’s an existing flexible figure that can follow both the story of Helm Hammerhand and see the end of the War with Freyleaf. A main character that has a supporting role in the central conflict.
But to the point at hand, some of the lines between the English and original Japanese trailers differ dramatically. Primarily the scene where Helm is talking to Hera at Helm’s Deep. Given the context of the scene, that would be a pivotal and emotional moment between the two. In the English, the line is, “You have the power to rule the world”, which most likely is one of leading concerns regarding the narrative of the movie.
But the original Japanese trailer has a completely different line. In that trailer, Helm’s line is, “You are the King’s daughter. You are the people’s hope.” Which fits more with the context. It is a father saying goodbye to his daughter for potentially the last time, but he encourages her to remain steadfast and strong despite having to now be alone for the sake of their people and as her duty as a princess, especially in their darkest hour.
These two lines have dramatically different meanings and tells two completely different stories. So all I’m saying is that a lot of the “girlboss” elements may come from Western influence forcing the East to make certain compromises to make the project, as well as purposefully mistranslating lines
The Japanese trailer shows Hera to be like San from Princess Mononoke, a girl trying to save her family and home from invaders even if it means just being a messenger calling for reinforcements and helping in a few minor scuffles. While the West shows Hera like the annoying modern “girlboss” trying to prove herself when such an action isn’t necessary or prevalent when dealing with a literal invasion.
Which completely changes the image of her fighting Wulf on the siege bridge at the end of the trailer. As the English trailer depicts her as a “girlboss” charging headfirst into danger and holding her own. But with the context of the Japanese trailer, Hera seems to be making a last stand against Wulf’s siege, charges with few allies left to destroy it to prevent them from breaking into the Deep but trapping them in the heart of the enemy.
Now the interaction between Wulf and Hera differs here too, though the lines are the same, they now have different meanings.
Wulf: “You think I’m afraid of you?”
Hera: “You should be.”
English paints the interaction as, “My father said I have the power to rule the world. I’m a badass so you should be afraid.”
Japanese paints the interaction as, “My father entrusted me to protect our people, I’ve destroyed my only means of escape to do so. Even if I defeat you, I will surely be overwhelmed by your forces. I may die here, but I will die fighting, as my family did.”
Someone resolved to die has nothing to fear and makes for a terrifying opponent. And that’s vastly different from, “You should fear me because I’m like super strong and awesome”.
That’s how different her character can be when comparing the difference in dialogue with Helm and Hera between the Japanese and English scripts.
But do remember, we can’t have a concrete opinion until the movie comes out. And even if this comment does age like milk, I will say that since this is a collab project a Japanese studio and Warner Bros, where the Japanese are leading the project, that doesn’t mean the West definitely didn’t force them to include certain things and insert as much as they could before the Japanese put their foot down and WB couldn’t push any more. But Hera was more likely a decision a decision by the Japanese for both certain and risky narrative reasons, and good ol’ anime girl marketing.
So yeah, there’s a good chance if you watch the dub, some lines will actually be different than the sub that changes some characters image entirely. And this has been a genuine issue between Japanese studios and some official English translators purposefully changing lines to fit _their_ personal narrative… yeah… it’s not exactly that pretty right now.
Hera deserves a shot, I can completely understand the caution to her though, and I too am sitting on-top the fence before making a concrete opinion.
@nobuffer101 this whole thing is fantastic! Do you mind if I post this in my discord? And... if I do a comparison of the two trailers (which I'm currently considering), I would like to reference your points. Can I mention your profile name in the video?
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS Sure thing, that's fine with me. Though I can't say with much confidence about my credibility on certain aspects as certain topics such as disparities between the East and West are more often behind closed curtains and more speculations than facts. There are moments where East and West studios actually do get along without any politics involved to produce something great, the most recent major example being Warner Bros helping Toei with Luffy's Gear 5. And regarding Tolkien lore, I'm ashamed to admit that I'm not as indepthly knowledgable as I'd like to be, and my memory tends to be pretty hazy.
There is also the possibility that both lines still exist and are just used separately between the trailers for the same scene.
My points regarding the story are personal speculation about how the movie can be completely lore-friendly, while giving Hera a fair shot.
But I can say with absolute certainty that Helm's line in the Japanese translates to what I claimed.
If possible, I would also like to add that earlier in the comment, I stated a defense for Hera's role while following with an argument against it. I wanted to specify that while following Helm would've been more accurate and "traditionally western" for the story, where Helm's Deep will have to defend itself against Wulf without Helm until Freyleaf arrives. Who is supposed to be the protagonist to connect the end of Helm's story to the beginning of Freyleaf's?
As the line of Hammerhand ends and is succeeded by Freyleaf, for the movie to remain lore-accurate, Hera _has_ to die or at least abdicate due to injury/inability. I can only assume she loses her duel with Wulf, is mortally wounded, but saved at the last second by Freyleaf with reinforcements. Allowing her to successfully pass the right of leadership to Freyleaf before her passing. If she survives till the end of the movie.
If the movie plays along those lines, the film should more or less remain lore-friendly, as the only thing that would really be "changed" is the minor detail of the unnamed daughter of Helm "surviving the assault on Edoras and dying at Helm's Deep, or a least before Freyleaf ascends the throne".
The main points of the entire conflict seem to be:
- Helm rejects Freca's proposal and kills him.
- Wulf declares war on Rohan.
- The Dundelings take Edoras and force the Rohirrim to Hornburg during the Long Winter.
- Helm conducts numerous raids but eventually perishes.
- The Long Winter ends and Freyleaf, in Dunharrow, retakes Edoras and kills Wulf.
- With the line of Hammerhand gone, Freyleaf becomes Rohan's next king after pushing back the Dundelings.
From all those points, Hera's role more or less seems to work around and REACT to it.
- Hera rejects Wulf, but Helm was already planning on rejecting the proposal anyway.
- Hera offers to gather reinforcements, either before or AFTER potentially from Shieldmaidens and Freyleaf, but finds little success as Wulf's forces have already attacked them as well.
- She is intercepted by a Oliphant patrol which she flees from, only to find that the shieldmaidens appear to be attacked with too little survivors to aid the battle.
- Hera goes to Hornburg and despairs over the loss of her brothers. And despite being a great rider, it isn't ideal for winter night raids. Forcing her to remain in the Deep.
- Hera is encouraged by her father to remain strong, both for her, and for himself as she is his last child.
- Wulf, in fear of reinforcements from Freyleaf or Gondor wants to take Hornburg as the Long Winter and numerous raids have taken their toll, an assault from the surviving Rohirrim and Gondor wouldn't be ideal. He plans one last siege.
- Hera, the last Hammerhand, prepares for a defensive, but is forced to take the initiative when the siege bridge (which fun fact, is similar in design to Leonardo Da Vinci's). lands on the wall.
- With what little forces she can take or simply by herself, due to the lack of soldiers who need to focus on defense, encounters Wulf on narrow siege bridge, and duels him.
AND THIS IS THE CRITICAL POINT
- Whether she wins or loses the duel, Wulf survives and retreats to Edoras, and with the Long Winter reaching its end, Freyleaf assaults and retakes Edoras, killing Wulf. Freyleaf might come _early_ with a small team to save Hera in their duel at Helm's Deep and force Wulf back to Edoras, but his assault on Edoras is final. Hera either dies in the duel or is wounded and dies later.
- Freyleaf pushes back the remaining Dundelings and becomes the next King of Rohan, overseen by Saruman.
From those points, it can be lore friendly, as despite certain elements being introduced, it has no effects on Tolkien lore at all. If the Shieldmaidens are still active and whom Hera tries to reach for help, they are wiped out by the Dundelings, when she tries for Freyleaf, he too is attacked and forced to retreat to Dunharrow. Which would play along with the lore as the Shieldmaidens are not present in this war. It bends it, but sticks close to it.
All that "changes" to the lore is giving Helm's daughter a name, giving her a role to establish the definitive annihilation of the shieldmaidens, tie it into some existing lore points like Freyleaf being pushed to Dunbarrow. Wulf plans a failed assault after the death of Helm. Hera is injured or dies in the defensive, thus giving her a defined end alongside her family to properly end the line of Hammerhand. Which in retrospect, is all secondary to the actual conflict and happens behind the scenes, explaining how Hera's story, can be "lore-friendly".
TL;DR
Helm carries the story from Point A to Point B, but Freyleaf is at Point C. As Helm's sons and Helm himself dies around Point B, there's no one to carry the torch to Point C. You _can_ just wait for the Long Winter to end, or you could toss in one last siege after confirming Helm's death. But in that time period, as the Long Winter hadn't ended yet, who leads the people in Helm's Deep if Freyleaf is in Dunharrow, and who is there to defend it against Wulf's assault?
Well what about Helm's unnamed daughter? Her death is never stated, only implied alongside her family. She doesn't have a name or a character... why not make her last longer until she can drive the story from Point B to Point C? But to do that she needs some character development and exploration during A-to-B, so lets have her do some things that can tie in to the lore, without changing it?
Now we have a central figure who can be present from Point A all the way to Point C in the film.
Narratively speaking, flexible blank slate characters like "Hera" are perfect for telling an existing story through another perspective while also potentially adding original and creative ideas to help elevate the story in the background. (But there are cases where its detrimental).
You have pre-existing rules you have to follow, but you can use a pre-existing figure that has an undefined fate that doesn't come off as a self-insert OC, and despite only needing to play along, they can actually do their own thing and be their own character as their actions are behind the scenes of the original story being told, because the only rule that applies to them... is that they die later. No "how" or "why", only a "when". And for Hera, that's before Freyleaf becomes King.
As long as the film operates within that, I'd argue that at least lore and concept-wise, the film, and by extension, Hera, relatively works.
Hera's character, is something we'll decide on later, and also through a trial-by-fire.
I just realized I went on one hell of a tangent... my apologies if it's any inconvenience. But I do hope the movie does its best to remain within the lore, while also expanding on Hera who narratively makes sense to follow for a movie. It's a creative yet risky decision, but if it succeeds, all it does is add some nice minor details to the lore.
One of the biggest flaws with todays "bossgirls" is that they have to constantly outshine everyone else in nearly every interaction. i love the style of the trailer and i have a good feeling about this dont ask me why exactly maybe because of all the animes i watched i rarely if ever saw the "western" bosscharacter in them.. A woman/princess can pull of a fierce and competent warrior but like their male counterparts they have to let other people shine too. And fit in their world.. i dont know how to exactly word it but my go to example would be supergirl (yeah i watched 3 episodes) litteraly one of the strongest beings on the planet constantly complaining about the patriachy and being weak and belittled having to prove herself i mean what? anyway i feel its quite difficult to express what i mean exactly hope you geth the meaning. thumbs up!
I was so incredibly excited for this until I knew more about it. I have spent years begging studios to make animated adaptations of fantasy novels. Without the limitations of live action you can tell the story extraordinarily faithfully with visuals accurate to both descriptions and any art created for the novels and realize large-scale scenes without having to spend hundreds of millions of dollars.
I really want this to be good and successful so that hopefully studios take notice but at the same time. It's fanfiction rather than an adaptation and appears focused on taking an unnamed character and making her a "strong female character"... And it seems like it has been several years since we got a likeable "strong female character" in Western media.
At this point in fantasy adaptation, I would rather have one that was at least honest that it was fanfiction instead of pretending to be an adaptation.
@@WatanukiProductions Have you seen the Japanese trailer for Rohirrim? I just watched it, and it's WAY better. Go check it out. Gives me a lot more hope.
@toddjackson3136 I agree. But I also don't think it's impossible for other writers to honor the world of Tolkien with new stories. They just need to know the lore (so as not to contradict it) and understand Tolkein's Middle-earth philosophies.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS Ooh! Thanks for the tip!
I have zero hopes for this. One of my biggest problems with the Peter Jackson trilogy is Arwen. She is a relatively minor character in the novels and she was given the role of one of the most important and badass elves in all of Tolkien's lore, Glorfindel. I see them doing the same thing with "Hera" here based on the trailer that got released. I've seen people say they are wanting to girl boss "Hera" like everything considers Eowyn a "girl boss." Everyone forgets that without the help of Merry stabbing the Witch-king with his barrow blade causing him to stumble, she wouldn't have been able to drive her sword through his head, thus fulfilling the prophecy laid out by Glorfindel a thousand years earlier. So, between how Arwen was handled in the Peter Jackson movies, how Eowyn is remembered in pop culture, and the latest adaptations (from the Hobbit movies onward) the most likely outcome is that this will be a complete and total trash fire. They are concentrating on a character that is so relatively unimportant to the War of the Rohirrim that she is only briefly mentioned (and not even named in that mention) when adapting the story of the War of the Rohirrim. Make having hope for this adaptation make sense to me because I just don't see it.
@glyyytch I am always willing to give a different artist a chance to honor a beloved story. In this case, the most important thing would be to not contradict what is written in the appendix. Then it is to focus on Themes that fit the Tolkein universe.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS I can respect that outlook. However, given the current climate of soulless sequels, remakes, and adaptations, I would much rather see something original from an artist than their take on an established IP.
I wouldn't mind if the flesh out a character which only got a line from Tolkien if the character would be portrayed in the frame of Tolkiens work. But I don'rt expect this here.
@@TheGraemi this is an honest question because I'm curious, even if it sounds sarcastic or disingenuous. How can you possibly flesh out a character that is briefly mentioned and lacks the importance of being named in a world created by a man who would give a complete backstory to a single blade of grass if that blade of grass was important? I ask because my view is that anything done with the character besides being the object of desire for marriage isn't fleshing out a character, it is inserting an entire personality, character, and story arc that Tolkien obviously didn't think was worth mentioning.
I would be much more interested if they took the War of the Rohirrim as inspiration to make their own story in a world that isn't set in Middle Earth where they can create their own sandbox to do whatever they want with their own characters instead of trying to force their own ideas into Tolkien's sandbox.
@@glyyytch Can be easy or difficult based on if you want to tell a story which is part of the "history" of Middle-Earth or not.
If you want to made it part of the history, you have to decide if you want the history to be correct or corrected. With the correct history way you have to check (most) every interactions with "historic" characters to not contradict. Which includes a lot of work.
With corrected history I mean that the "winners" changed it, in our case removed references of this character. So you would say something like, "This is the deleted history of ..." or something similar. Than you have a lot of freedom.
Kenji kamiyama has been involved in some decent anime works. His best works has been those he were the writer too, I really enjoyed the "eden of the east".
This is an adaptation of a stablished world. There is not much room for artistic liberty while respecting the source material.
He did Eden of the East? That's the one with the cellphones and the large amount of money the kid has to spend, right? I loved that show! Mini series. Whatever that was. I loved it.
I like your analysis. I wouldn’t say Tolkien’s major theme is politics though. He has a fairly light treatment of it, unlike GOT, WoT and Dune which all feature more intense intrigue and politics. So I hope it stays simple in this. I kind of questions why this movie went with a female lead. We have some history from Tolkien about the Rohirrim that would have been interesting to expand on. The Pukel men, the king who died trying to get past the door in the mountains, Helm and the establishment of helm’s deep, the war that led to the friendship with Gondor, Eorl the Young on a flying steed - all of those would be interesting to explore and fill out. None of them mentioned this story of a woman warrior of renown, so instead because they chose this we are drawn to a direct comparison of Eowyn which may lesson this and/or that story, if this is derivative. So I hope this will be a very different heroine story than that.
Tolkien’s theme in LotR are the corrosive nature of power, the strength of decency, kindness and kinship, the beauty of nature, the sadness of transition, the danger of holding onto the past despite that sadness, the value of language, and the sacrifices that must be made to protect the world from evil. I guess we’ll see if any of that materializes here. I will say I don’t remember anything about oliphants (which come form the far south and east) making there way to Rohan or the Watcher so I’ll be curious to see how that gets explained.
If you haven’t seen them already I strongly encourage you to watch Arcane and Blue-eyed Samurai. Both have excellent animation, well written stories and novel takes on heroines that resonate. On that later front, while I am much more of a Tolkien fan than a GOT fan, I do have to give credit to GoT for doing a much better treatment of women’s sacrifices and suffering than Tolkien. When the various ladies in GoT devote their lives to raising children only to watch them get slaughtered in the various political struggles, you can almost taste the ashes in their mouths knowing they have not only lost their loved ones but that the purpose of their lives has gone for naught. I think that heroism is similar and even more personal than a man who has built an empire watching it crumble to dust or be taken by enemies. Motherhood is heroic by nature and it doesn’t get the shrift it deserves in Hollywood.And the same can be said of all the many ways women struggle and fight for what they want in this world, with or without weapons of war.
I think there was a slight misunderstanding (or I wasn't clear in my video, which is equally possible 😋). I never thought that one of Tolkein's themes was the politics. I just meant that I was glad the trailer seemed to emphasize the political situation. It set the foundation for a story that isn't solely focused on "I'm a poor, misunderstood princess who just wants to gallop across the countryside with my hair blowing in the wind, firing arrows into the sunset!" That trope has been done to death.
I am curious about how Oliphants will be explained. Maybe it was brought up as part of a military force?
Game of Thrones did do an excellent job of demonstrating the sacrifices of women (those made inmotherhood, especially).
But yeah. They need to pick some Tolkienesque themes and really distill their plot and characters to fit those themes. Otherwise.... why set this in Tolkein's world?
At this point, when we see all the red flags, it's like seeing someone winding up to hit us...the same way they did all those other times. So I'd say it's better to assume they don't have anything good in store, and not be open minded. I think it really will boil down to her being better and right and more correct than all the men who were the original heroes in the story.
Though I do think you would do a much better job rewriting a lot of these modern stories, because your commentary and theorizing is interesting and creative.
@jjhh320 This is one of those times we have to wait and see. Animation is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ANIMAL. Also, I will be shocked if a Japanese director goes the GirlBoss route.
Yes, this is a theatrical animated film, not a series. It's also a done-in-one; there shouldn't be any direct sequels. Kenji Kamiyama is an accomplished anime director. Maybe you've seen 'Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex' or 'Blade Runner: Black Lotus'?
@@otaku-sempai2197 I have seen GITS:Stand Alone Complex! OK. This is a good sign!
I think the difference will depend on whether or not the writers have actually read the books, or if they've only seen the Jackson movies .... I feel that is what happened to Rings of Power, really ... it is the derivative work of a derivative work.
I honestly don't even think they watched the movies. There was a certain reverence for the themes and character work in the LOTR movies by PJ. This show is..... I dont even know what it's trying to do.
Yes, this is a feature length film, releasing in December. So your title containing "Season 1, Episode 1" is incorrect.
As others have mentioned, the common trope being used is a "girlboss", or "Mary-Sue" character, meaning they are all badass without having earned it through conflict or even just damned hard practice.
@Craig_McGill Gah! I copied and Pasted the title. That last bit about episodes and seasons was supposed to be cut. Thank you for pointing that out!
The other side of the female protag. going through with the wedding for her people is, that it can be argued that she has no agency, or that her wants are not important, or that her job and the best way to go about it is to submit to her fathers wants sit home and have babies for the good of her people. I can see why most films with a female protag go the BA boss route. The Rohan were pictured as a proud and noble people, however like most fantasy which are loosely based on our history woman did not have as many legal rights as men.
There it's just a matter of focus. If the writer wanted to go with the route of the character accepting the marriage, the story wouldn't be about her sitting at home having babies. It would be something closer to Gone with the Wind, in which important events are happening in the world, but the focus is on the people working at home and how they are affected by it, the decisions they need to make to keep things on track, what sacrifices they end up having to make to endure tough times, so on.
But that route of writing has two main issues. One, the writer needs to be better than the one writing a simple war story, because the story at home needs to be just as engaging but without battle scenes. Two, it's a lot harder to sell to people than simply making the standard battle scenes trailer with dramatic lines.
@williamedmonds-gx7sq the other commenter makes a great counter to this point. I have to agree. Honestly, if you think about it, the story of Frodo is the story of someone trying to go on a hike while battling an addiction he eventually loses to. This could be seen as a boring story, as well.
I loved thw story of Willow (the movie). He's a father taking care of a baby as he takes her across the world. Also, just because the girl is at home having babies doesn't mean she couldn't be doing incredible things as a leader. Habe you seen the show "Victoria"? Pretty interesting how they made that a story about her and her husband raising their children while ruling England
@Left4Coragem well said. Any story can be made interesting. I don't think it would seem like the protagonist has lost any agency by doing her father's will. It all depends on how she approaches it. Does she see it as her duty? Does she take it as an oportunity to do something amazing for her people? Motherhood, in this situation, is literally saving the country by creating this alliance.
Everything in The Hobbit takes place a fair distance away from Rohan. Even the stuff added into the movies (the Dol Guldur sequence, I'm lookng at you) is a good distance north of Rohan. IIRC a straight line from Rivendell to Dol Guldur would be about the same length as a straight line from Dol Guldur to Edoras.
And, at this point in the history of Middle Earth, Sauron *might* be there, but he is still keeping a very low profile.
I do wish I knew the world of Middle Earth better. Alas, I only read the 4 main books while growing up (several times, buy only those 4). I was unaware of there being more until well after I was in college (which was around the time I got internet). By then, I was up to my eyeballs in literary literature.
Still, my first default reaction is "leave Tolkian alone!". Or any other author, for that matter.
*Reminder about my WoT text*)) BTW, if you'll share it further, it would be nice too. Hope it's not to brazen.
@TheNightrider88 Haha! Thank you for the reminder.
I am always okay with well done adaptations. But they set themselves against the highest of standards when they approach Tolkein.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS I believe that one cant make a good adaptation without good understanding of the given world and its sources. Like, ypu can't really work with Tolkien's world without knowing how it was inspired by Nordic/Finnish myths reiterpreted via Catholic lens. But too many showrunners just don't care.
Lumber jack girl!!! ❤
Haha! Thanks. I would like to thank my stylist, Goodwill!
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS that's my stylist too!!!!
Definitely watch Ghost in the Shell- - very good anime. Same director. two separate reasons.
Haha! I believe I saw it years ago. I remember it making a splash.
I hope you are right.
So do I 🤞🏻
Dunlendings really shouldn't be looked at as "wildmen" the way they were in the movies ... think of it as the Anglo-saxon invasion of Britain facing the CeltoBritish tribes of the area... its kind of what he modeled the politics of that area on ... the Rohirrim being the Anglo-Saxon "usurpers" and the Dunlendings the displaced tribesmen.
Oh fascinating! Where would you say this info is most thoroughly played out in Tolkein's works? I remember the "wildlings" in The Two Towers. But I've heard there is more about them in the apedix of ROTK.
Cautiously Pessimistic
Sounded much louder than normal vids. I had to drop the volume by 80%. That mic seems to think your inhalations are the most important thing it hears, as they seem louder than your voice.
Content wise. It's all great. Even though I didn't watch the trailer and probably won't see the show, your analysis was completely up to your standards.
Noted! I'll try to fix this stuff for the next one. I was unable to use headphone when editing this, so it was tough to judge.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS You didn't ask the question, but I'll answer it anyway in the hopes of boosting the video in the eyes of the algorithm.
I don't plan to skip the show because it is animation. I think animation is great. I've seen plenty of shows ruined by incompetent child actors. Not their fault of course, they just haven't had the time to hone their craft. Many a time I've thought, "How great could this have been, had it been animated so an experienced actor could play the children?"
No, I don't expect to watch this film because it appears to be a Japanese production. I had high hopes for Terminator Zero on Netflix. I watched the first episode recently and while the dub was okay. It was far from amazing. It ruined the entire experience for me and I have no plans to watch anymore of it. I tried watching Godzilla Minus One recently, and the dub for that was SO bad, I couldn't tell any of the characters apart. So many people tell me it's such a wonderful film I'm considering trying to watch it with the subtitles, migraine be damned. But I haven't yet summoned the courage to endure the pain.
"your standards" hahah!! Oh it's not up to MYYY standards.. but at least it's up to "your standards"..... "Your pitiful little standards, so far below mine..." Is what U appear to be saying here. Nice attitude 👍
I believe it's pronounced ro-HEER-im. Also, the clips are from "The Two Towers", not "The Hobbit".
Yeah, it's Kraken.
@@tomwhistler9772 Yeah. I laughed at there not being any clips from The Hobbit. Seems like they know it was bad.
I don't see modern girlbosses as badass warriors. I see them as obnoxious and immature bullies with an ego problem. It's odd the writers think those qualities are better than feminine, classy, insightful, and sympathetic. I am beginning to feel confident that these are actually the people who picked on LOTR type readers in high school. Hopefully this trend will be over soon and they'll move on to whatever generic shit they actually like and stop trying to ruin other people's stories
Lol. I never thought about the bullying thing. What an interesting theory!
If you've read the synopsis for this then you know that it's nothing more than more butchery of Tolkien's work. This should be the story of Helm Hammerhand and his sons. Helm's daughter didn't even have a name in the source materiel. She has no part at all in the war that follows the death of Wolf's father. THIS is making her the warrior princess who leads the army to victory with the help of a previously unknown tribe of shield-maiden female warriors.
Nothing about this is in any way reflective of Tolkien.
I have not read the synopsis, yet. But I saw the Japanese trailer just after posting this and was very impressed by it. I'm willing to govenit a chance. Japanese writers are not as prone to dishonored the source material. If he's able to pull off a story that doesn't break the world and is actually good, that will be very impressive.
... don't the mosquitos bug you??
Lol. Yes. I have several minutes of cut footage from this video of me flipping out because of the mosquitoes 😅
There shouldn't be Oliphaunts ....
I was sorta wondering if that was the case. I thought they came from super far away.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS yeah they are from the far Harad , the south beyond Mordor… I’m guessing the writers wanted to bring in a sense of supernatural threat… I guess an overwhelming amount of angry men wasn’t enough…
It’s really disheartening to see the awful infecting new anime. Major media conglomerates are purchasing anime studios. Anime is pretty much the only media right now that isn’t completely awful
That's a lot of bugs.
It was. And I am delicious to the bloodsucker, so I came out of this with about a dozen new bites.
I have some hope as Philippa Boyens, who co-wrote with LOTR with PJ in PJ's triology, is the lead writer of this animation
Oh really?
Well.... fingers are crossed!
Cautiously optimistic!
@toddjackson3136 Watch the Japanese Trailer. I just watched it way better than the English version. Lots of additional scenes shown.
I'm just sad they chose Anime style. I cannot stand the Anime art style.
@@tay-dor7147 It certainly takes some getting used to.
As long as its written by western writers its going to be terrible 99.9% of the time.
@@illiberalautist2222 Watch the Japanese trailer. It's very different from the English one. Really sorta love it!
I'm just surprised they went with a redhead.
If it gets a live action remake, she's certain to be race/hair swapped.
@@NameNotAChannel 🤣🤣🤣
@thel1355 When I was an exchange student in Japan, all the teens were dying their hair rust and red.
As a MASSIVE anime fan I'm so exited for this. Cheers
Saweet! If anime fans have faith in the director, that's a good sign.
I am going to stop you there. Lost tribe of female warriors. That's all I need to know about this show to lose any interest.
1) It's not a show
2) What 'lost tribe of female warriors'? This movie has nothing like that.
@@Dyrnwynn 1). I have misspoken
2). Do a search
I'm always willing to give a story a chance. From what I know of this director now, he has done well with adaptations in the past and doesn't seem to bend to modern fancies. Maybe he will stick to Tolkieneque themes.
❤
@@brindledragon2398 🥰