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Scales and Gauges Part 7 - Why Did Many European Companies Change "O" Scale to
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- Опубликовано: 14 авг 2024
- Last week we looked into the 1:43.5 scale, WELL we now know WHY they switched 1:48 "O" scale to 1:43.5. And surprisingly it's because of HO scale!!
HO scale was the largest model train scale from about 1950 to about 1990. In fact, it owned over 50% of model train sales. And yet 2 rail "O" scale was still a large part of the scale railroad market. And model companies like AHM (Rivarossi) wanted to offer their line in both scales.
NOW, we need to look and how plastic models are made... The injection molds are milled from steel mold blocks. The negative shape of the model is carved into the block by a milling machine with a reduction pantograph. The pantograph had a tip on one end and a small rotating tool at the other that carves into the mold block. As the stylus (tip) moves up the tool carves down. In this way, a prototype model can be placed under the stylus and a negative of the model will be carved into the mold block. However, the prototype need not be the exact same size as the finished model. An oversized prototype model can be used and the pantograph set to a proportion of the reduction. A 2X oversized pattern model can have the pantograph set to 1:2 reduction and the mold will come out the right size.
So if the pattern model is built to 1:29 scale the pantograph can be set to 3:1 and the mold will come out at 1:87 scale and make an HO scale model. Set it to 1.5:1 and the mold will produce a 1:43.5 scale model. And so... 1:43.5 became the standard "O" scale for these models to be offered in both HO and O.
And later, much later, these 1:29 scale prototypes were used to produce 1:29 scale models that run on #1 gauge track. But that's another story...
Now everything is as clear as mud. No really I do get it, thanks for explaining.
As we go forward we hope it becomes clear.
I like what she said .If you like the train buy it .ha ha ha . very interesting . thank you Have a great week
AND PLAY WITH IT~!!
🤪Yeah! I understood it! Very cool. I always wanted to see what one of those engraving pantographs looked like!
Was talking to Jim Keeler. He’s got photos of the whole process of making a Ed Roth hot rod.
more on this later. Jim Keeler (friend) was Revell developer in about 1962. He was 18! Anyway, he has photos of the whole process. Its cars, but I think people will sill like it. Explains why half of the model cars wer 1:24 scale and half 1/25 scale.
What a show so very interesting just loved the detailed I do enjoy your shows. 🙂Thomas over at The Model Hobbyist
Hi and as before, THANKS!!
It's nice to know all that math I learned in High School is good for something.
Thx again
I hated math.... Well I hatted everything except shop, art, music or history. OH and screwing around.
Thanks for another good videos as allways. Locking forward sunday video's . 👍🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃
Thanks!!
This has been fun learning about how they came about the why and how of the scales that they did.
Thanks for making it fun to learn.
GOD BLESS 🚂💖🚂💖🚂💖🚂💖
Blessings right back!! Merry Christmas 🎁
totally confusing but highly entertaining ... thx!!
Not confusing!! Or… well.. a bit.
Thanks you two
Hi Frank! Thanks so much
The Toy Man has become the greatest math teacher of all time
Thanks!!
Cool. Now you have to make a track for the cool engine.
well the 1:29 is gauge #1. So it runs on our "garden" railroad. The 1:43 is O gauge... Planning that, and the HO.... Well we have a test track. and a club.
Quite a cool video of these scales and gauges. I’m going to be visiting the Roaring Camp’s Holiday Lights Train on December 4th 2022. It’s happening for the Santa Cruz Big Trees & Pacific Railroad.
Love that place!!!
Dale, thanks for doing all the research on this crazy scale/gauge issue for us modelers. You put it all in very simple terms so we can understand the WHY's of how it is today. I will say I've got just about all the scales today and need to decide on one. As we age it seems to me that "O" scale is the best choice for detail and ease of use. It's harder to see HO and N, but you can put a lot in a small area. I think G will continue to be my choice for outside as you've both done, but O or Zero will be my choice for inside. At least now I understand how they all came about. 🛤You guys are the best!
not sure what your interest is, but I think On30 is the best choice. PROBLEM is its not made anymore. But there is a ton of stuff out there on eBay..
I switched to Zero (more exactly O16.5) when I was still in my teens, because I wasn't able to make the details like I wanted in HO. But in the end, I still do crazy small details in Zero (always amazed to see people doing similar or even more detailing in HO).
Bachmann has very limited number of new stock On30. Even from UK, just a few complex kits are still available. But in Japan, they have several companies doing easy kits in On30, like AruModel and PairHands (and the motor bogies from AruModel are great).
Been into modeltrains for 50 years and never knew this.
I didn’t know about the 1:43.5 scale. Knew it was larger than 1:48. Anyway I knew one of the Polk brothers. And saw the roll out of 1:29. They were using the Rivarossi HO photos in their 1:29 scale ads!
Interesting stuff guys. I might not fully understand it all but I'm learning
learning curve.
It also explains the popularity of 1/43 scale model cars. They started as a layout accessory and then became their own thing. And doesn't "HO" stand for "Half O?"
Exactly!!!!!! And now a standard die cast size!! But now you know the rest of the story!!! Because of HO!!
Clear as mud Dale. That explains why HO scale is Half "O" scale. Marklin used to make 1;43.5(or 1;43) scale die cast vehicles back in the 60s and 1;45 locos and wagons to run on HO track (3 rail AC) similar to On30.
Yup. Really all O scale die casts are 1:43.5. And the only reason why these days is because back in the 40’s they were made so for this reason. And soon it became the standard die cast size. But this is why..
@@ToyManTelevision Thanks. I found some of the old Marklin catalogues. The 1:45 trains were called Minex as the name implies, mostly mine and industrial types. There was also 1:32 slot cars called Sprint. Our club has G gauge outside with 1:29 &1:22.5 LGB (2x the "other" O scale) plus a few oddities.
And the Märklin choice to use 1/45 scale for their O narrow gauge set a mark that still is used today in Germany, Austria and Switzerland as well the eastern european countrys to build O scale narrow gauge.
So big those scale trains idk why they changed europeans the scale nice vídeo 😁
YUP! The real market was American HO. Most of what they sold, about 60% was that. But they also had a very large market in both American O and European OO and O. And that was 1:43.5 for O. And more on the OO scale soon!!
Having done drafting sometimes to three inches to the inch because of the small size of the part this makes sense. You get the details right on a large plug and that detail is scaled down to the small scale. Now it's all done with CAD and CNC equipment.
A family friend had an old patterngraph from Boeing Surplus that was used to make forming blocks for small sheet aluminum parts. He had all the parts to make both positive and negative from a form. He was using it for engraving mostly. I do remember him using it to scale an O gauge logging car to HO size for his layout.
Hum.. you just hit on why half the model cars are 1:24 scale and half 1:25 scale. Well except for 1:8 and 1:12 and… anyway cars were drafted in 1:10. Easy math. Still feet and inches. But 1:24 scale models were prototyped in 1:8 scale (and some released in 1:16 and 1:8) but pantographed to 1:24. 8X3. But many were prototyped in 1:10 because the plans were in 1:10 and so no conversion. And pantographed to 1:25. 10X2.5.
@@ToyManTelevision it's all about scaling ratios and how fine of resolution can you get.
By using a larger pattern means you have greater resolution in the smaller parts/mold made. Trying to help people understand this can be difficult sometimes.
AMAZING!
Thanks!!
Dale: It does make sense. Especially when you take into account that HO or OO in the UK is the most popular size of trains. HO was the N scale of its day..
This is a difficult topic to explain. It becomes clear when you understand how the model are made. The milling required to obtain the detail mind blowing. Every one should try tool and dye to appreciate how difficult this is. In college for a class I took, had to make a dye to pour aluminum casting in a sand mold. Injection molding plastic and obtain fine detail is much more difficult. Always unique and definitely not boring.
We’ve been talking to our friend, Jim Keeler about this. He’s going to share some photos on an upcoming show. He worked on development of model cars, but the process is the same. The Proto types were made in 1/8 scale for 1/24 scale molds. 8x3. Anyway, he said the details on the 1:24 scale dashboard molds were carved in by hand. Now that’s an insane level of craftsmanship.
Dale, some other scales you may wish to talk about although more from a UK perspective. There are other scales beyond the shores of the USA.
1:19 scale which is for modelling on 2ft gauge prototypes on 32mm gauge model track. Many trains in 1:19 are gauge adjustable to also run on the popular 45mm gauge model track which is very popular in the UK although technically not correct scale/gauge relationship.
Another one is 7/8ths scale or 1:13.7. It is also for 2ft gauge prototypes on 'gauge 1' track 1.75" (45mm gauge but not exactly so do the math).
Hornby and Peco have recently started producing a range of models, buildings and track in the almost forgotten TT scale 1:20 on 12mm gauge model track. It's about half way between HO/OO and N scale. It didn't originally take off many years ago because of the popularity of the newly introduced N scale at the time. I suspect models in OO and N scales have now been saturated and TT scale will give something new in the marketplace and offer some of the benefits of both.
I'm reading the REVIEW for more than two decades, but outside the 7mm I model, I'm still lost with all the different UK scales and strange naming. As French, I prefer metric, but I can handle imperial units, but the mix of the two always puzzles me. It seems that the average British guy can do it better than NASA.
@@pbyfr In the UK, the prototypes were originally devised in imperial then metrication came about mid last century therefore models were based on the metric system therefore the conundrum.
They changed it all where I live during my childhood so I still use both measurements fluently however I prefer metric for miniature items but tend to speak imperial for larger 'human relatable' measurements.
My slightly younger cousins are clueless when it comes to feet and inches.
7mm to the foot…. Now that’s a mix.
Thanks!!! A week from Tuesday.
I cheat. I use metric when modeling. Just easier. Unamerican?
Would be cool to see the LGB Golden Spike kit next to those other scale 4-4-0's
We just saw one at the color country open house. Wow!
No, this is not confusing. It actually clears things up. It all has to do with proportion, and HO being the most popular. Gauge, scale, size and proportion, all confusing until the underlying "engineering" is revealed.
I was wondering why 4 ft. 8 1/2 inches and not 4 ft. 9 inches? (4 3/4 feet) Then I considered that the distance between the flanges as probably 4 ft. 8 inches (4 2/3 feet). Who Knows, (more confusion?).
Many of us have seen a form of pantograph, if we watched some one engraving a name on some jewelry, etc.
Neat video, once again, This little series needs to be a "play list" set, I'm sure it is already. ;-)
HI Robert. Right? And it explains 1:29 scale. BUT when we get to On30... And that's soon.
O O O. Merry Christmas.
O O O!! OO OO OO!! HO HO HO!!
But, but, but Dale! It would have been possible to set up the pantograph to reduce 1/29 to 1/45 by setting the ratio at 1.55 rather than 1.5. Would that have caused too much head scratching, or weren't the pantographs sufficiently precise? Still, it is all good fun!
The pantograph is mostly basic. 1:1. 1:2. 1:1.5. Stuff like that.
Very cool video!!
Hey being that it's Tuesday, has Tuesday arrived yet for the "Elsa"? Been curious how Dan's been
Well… 99% finished. Just the cloth “headliner” to do. But custom pattern to be printed. And everything is on hold. Dan has some MINOR health concerns. So for now not working on it. But I’m betting he will still do the Santa train here in a week or so.
I'm confused by your comment about Polk Hobbies getting into G scale at the end of the 1990s. I remember seeing REA (Polk's predecessor) at the 1991 NGRC in Cincinatti. Or were those not Riverossi?
I remember before my dad moved to G scale that our O scale layout had a few oddball looking cars that were not Lionel. Guessing those were the 1/43.5 instead of 1/48.
Hi. REA got in with the Rodgers locomotive as I recall. And other offerings. About 1990? Not sure when they did the deal with Rivarossi. But the FA-1 was the only offering. But the catalog showed many tempting items.. but the photos were all of HO models!! That’s when I figured out the “hack”. That Rivarossi had the 1:29 scale pattern models and that is why REA was coming out in 1:29 scale. Not sure of the date..
Now you've confused the heck out of Santa...What size train did you want???
Santa knows… he always knows… (A Christmas Story).
Scaling the heights of model railroading...
😊
1:29, aka OMG scale.
😂I like that.
In Germany and Switzerland they made 1/45 but in. France and that's for me the true scale we made 1/43,5 that we call "échelle ZERO" Ho means half O divide now 87 by 2 = 43,5 it's simple !!! here's a layout in zero french ruclips.net/video/f2haKnlcRHA/видео.html model are from Fulgurex Amjl and many others manufacturers buildings (I participate for construction) are also 1/43,5 scratchbuilt and fit good with bus and others vehicles figures that are also in 1:43,5
Wow. THANKS!!! Great link.
I'm a train nerd that gets lost in the mathing! 😂 Somebody else can do the math. I'll just run the trains! 😆
I love the math. Don’t know crap about it.. C=A+3(56)-D. Sure… whatever. I’m familiar with the D-
You guys are getting silly now! The men in the white suits with the special jackets are coming to take you away to go see Dr. Demento!!! Lol
That guys nuts!! Grab them!!
What gauge track does 1:29 scale equipment run on?
Usually made to run on G gauge/Gauge 1 track
Soon we will do #1 gauge. Always scale modified. So on #1 gauge track - 1:24 scale, 1:32 scale, 1:29 scale, 1:22.5 scale, 1:20.3 scale and 5/8” scale.
@@ToyManTelevision Also 1:19 and 1:13.7
You know I think I'll just stick with my n scale
Hum… 9mm. Good scale!! Oh oops. That’s a gauge.
German Gründlichkeit!
Yup!! Er.. ya.
No, it doesn't make sense. 1:48, then 1:45, then 1:43.5. They clearly could not make up their minds. 1:48 was too simple, and it's not twice the size of HO scale, but it is half 1:24 scale.so they made it 1:43.5. So how does that apply to 1:24 scale? Just forget that part. We didn't consider 1:24, 1:48, 1:96 when we established 1:87. So where is 1:21.75? Who cares, it's only models. But wait, what is 1:20.3? Let's really confuse the issue. 1:17.2 anyone? Or 1:34.6?
I'm sorry, that Genoa does not look like that diesel locomotive. And math is far more simple and logical than what different societies have done with modeling standards. It is all random and makes no sense. It's whatever the decision makers decided for reasons that really is based on nothing substantive than their current whim.
Well… HO. See 1:87 scale. The gauge is exactly one half O. But to fix the gauge to a proper 4’8.5” they altered the scale to 1:87. So HO is one of few accurate scale and gauge scales.
Are you sure it isn't because "they spoke French" !
Well it was the Italians making French cars. I love it ALL!