Beethoven is, in my opinion, the master of harmony, colour and orchestration. He inspires me in most of my work... Most revolutionary composer of all time...
I've gotten the impression that Beethoven was a perfectionist, never quite happy with his craft. It's not surprising he would feel his fugues were of insufficient quality.
I remember when I was 13, I had a teacher once mention that they thought Tchaikovsky was a bad orchestrator. That's stuck with me since, so whenever someone would mention to me that they liked Tchaikovsky I felt like I had to mention that I thought he was a bad orchestrator even though I really had no opinion on the matter. This was a helpful video in making me realise that statements like that don't always hold up. Thanks!
He was probably referring to the impossible harp part in waltz of the flowers. Tchaikovsky wasn't a master of orchestration, (from my experience, he seems to actually have been worse than Liszt), but calling him a bad orchestrator is just silly.
@@composaboi Tchaikovsky was definitely a master of orchestration, from an artistic standpoint at least. From what I've seen it seems to be generally regarded as one of his strongest suits, in fact.
There’s certainly a “workmanlike” quality to some of his writing, especially in his more bombastic passages. But it’s clear that he knew how to get a fantastic sound out of the orchestra
@Jone Macjone Amazing quote...thanks!!! I agree totally on Brahm's view. Alas, Brahms is at his weakest when trying to match Beethoven...eg Symph 1, which is written to impress...and its insincerity shows! As for Bach's harmony and dissonance...the b minor Mass is the Everest of music!
and I say this as a great fan of Brahms!! But look at the repeat of his 3rd symph 1st mvt...Beethoven would never have allowed the momentum to be arrested thus!
For some reason, RUclips is not allowing me to reply directly to Lee Smith's interesting comment. But here it is. I don't understand why my opening qualifications made such little impression on someone who is so obviously thorough in their observations of things. Nowhere in my video do I state that Bernstein was "a man unimpressed with Beethoven." I honor and credit Bernstein as being one of the great minds of contemporary music, and I assign value his contribution to discourse. In fact, it's obvious to all that Bernstein is more impressed by Beethoven than anyone else in history, from the very excerpts I show. I urge Ms. Smith to re-watch my upload, and take careful note of the way I frame my argument. It is far from an attack on Bernstein's personality, nor of his attitude towards Beethoven. It is, rather, a precise, point-by-point objection to the framing of an argument which might easily lead young musicians to a damaging conclusion. And I firmly believe that Bernstein would welcome such clarification, and engage in my objections with whatever attention they might merit. He might agree with some of my points, and admit that he'd been exaggerating, or state that I'd taken things out of context. But I doubt that he'd conclude that I'd painted him as disrespecting Beethoven. Ms. Smith might paint the video in question as a 'single, off-the-cuff "BS session" ' - but the fact remains that Bernstein meant what he said in that moment, and the video went out into the world with his blessings. It therefore has all the same relevance to his body of public thoughts as any other piece of his preserved wisdom. And contrary to what one might think, I actually agree with much of what he says overall in that video, and I fully understand his meaning. But his subjectivity is worthy of discussion in the culture of musical analysis of which he was a strong part. You cannot escape that.
Thank you Thomas Goss for this excellent clarification. I think Bernstein was trying to impress an obviously devoted fan by boldly trashing Beethoven's isolated aspects, then grandly summarizing Ludwig's "form" as the savior of it all. It is tragic that the video was taken literally by many, including me. After seeing it, I was wondering what Bernstein was talking about. Bad at melodies? Um, Moonlight Sonata? Beethoven's super-simple initial notes in symphonies were actually as hyper compressed as E=MC^2. The apparently simple statement was then elaborated into a complex and beautiful weave of music, like the underlying math of relativity. As for prophetic syncopation, several years ago I heard a scrap of previously undiscovered Beethoven music that he wrote shortly before his death. It was ragtime.
I would recommend psychedelics as a means to not only simulating the first experience, but granting you access to exploring the music like you never imagined. Psilocybin is one of my favourite tools.
i find this comment a bit funny, because music especially- to me- improves the more i hear it. on a first listen, i've no understanding of the structure nor any expectation of the greatest parts. they simply wash over as i listen. after a hundred listens, i will know the piece so well that it affects me much more greatly.
If all Beethoven had ever written was the Moonlight Sonata, he'd still be one of the greats. That thing still haunts my soul decades after I first heard it. I remember first hearing it when a girlfriend played it for me in University (I know, its weird I didnt know it before that, still...) and I was almost in tears. It was such a sad but reflective tune.
well, he wrote moon light sonata since he fall in love with one of his students, got rejected, so he wrote moon light. heart breaking? popular, Beethoven is popular, maybe he is Justin Bibber in our time. Beethoven was popular at his time than Bach on his era.
@@jielangone7475 Both of your points are incorrect. He didn't have Julie Brunswick in mind when writing his piano sonata no. 14. He only later dedicated it to her. He also only considered marrying her in his letter, but never actually proposed to her. Your second point that Beethoven was a lot more popular and well known than Bach is also incorrect. What you meant to say is that Bach was less known as a composer (because he only ever published four works and considered composing a hobby). He was basically a superstar of the classical world, and so were three of his sons who decided to become composers. He was extremely well known as a harpsichordist and organist, well known enough to most likely meet with Händel, a great and well known opera composer. He was also a cantor in an important Protestant church in Leipzig, Holy Roman Empire. That's partly what made his sons so famous, as well as their talent of course.
Bernstein just seems to be overstating his case for rhetorical effect. That's not necessarily bad musicology- just bad argumentation in a casual bull session. God preserve me from ever having to stand by every time I've shot my mouth off to give my point some undeserved oomph. That said, I think you have a point about new students not totally understanding that Bernstein is being intentionally flippant here. Great video, too!
This is really excellent stuff - the kind of material that makes RUclips really great. I'm just getting into orchestration, and would love more on the subject. Keep up the superb work!
Bernstein was a great composer, a great conductor, a great educator, and a very interesting person. But he was also often a fantastic bullshit artist when speaking about music. His passion and bravado, and perhaps no small amount of egotism, often led him to make very questionable statements in the service of whatever point he was trying to make. For example, in his Norton Lectures, The Unanswered Question, he proves he is quite willing to hold court on subjects of which he is completely ignorant when he mentions "the Indian scale," and proceeds to play some kind of exotic nonsense, pretending he actually knew something about the subject. Even the dilettante Indian classical music lover could call him out on that. There is no "Indian scale." But there are hundreds of ragas, based on various scales in different forms, some simple, and some quite complex, with zig-zagging ascending and descending patterns, and, of course, many different intervals and other features. However, I still admire him. And Beethoven is practically a God to me. And I suspect he was, also, to Bernstein, who may have simply been trying to be provocative on that particular day for the sake of his German associate.
Roberto Riggio Now here you have completely explained the complex egotistical show off and to a certain extent pseudo intellectual side of this incredibly complex man ...I have never questioned his conducting abilities and his massive amount of charisma, also he was vain but exceedingly attractive,these qualities certainly got a massive following but his casual put downs of Beethoven, and yes a lot of light weight comments thrown about in his Norton Lectures and flashing bits from Chomski etc do show him to be more interested in making an impression,I could not personally believe that Bernstein could make shallow remarks about Beethoven and also so derogatory the only excuse I could come up with was that he was flirting and playing around to gain attention,which was not needed anyway as he was centre stage anyway. ,I thought that Maestro Bernstein was a terrific musician conductor and absolutely fascinating person,but sometimes found myself questioning his vanity and ignorance thinking himself to be vastly more superior than his colleagues.Marvellous and exasperating all in one ........Maestro Bernstein R.I.P.
Thanks for this. For all his great contributions, Bernstein did at times let his ego get in the way and you have given us a great example of this. I hope to use your videos in my orchestration class.
Many thanks. As to J.S. Bach's flaws, I would only point to his own estimation of his talents, which was not without self-critique; and to the circumstances which led to the creation of the Musical Offering. By our own standards, that may be merely a case of perfection finding ever greater heights - but we are only mortal after all.
Wow! I can't believe Bernstein said those things! I never would of thought those words would be coming out of his mouth. Quite surprising. Thanks for the awesome video, you really defended him well. I have personally played Beethoven's Seventh as a 2nd violinist, and all I can say is that It is quite the amazing piece that in no way falls under the blatant and harsh criticisms of Bernstein. Again, I'm really glad you took the time to rightly counter those statements and fully flesh out your argument in the video as you did.
One cannot define Beethoven adequately. What can one say about that last section of the 5th you played at the end of your video, for example, that fully describes its power ? He is simply the massive pillar upon which we reach a transcendence through music.
Isn't it obvious that Bernstein is a midget ... an envious, less than midget ... compared to Beethovan? Listening to this set of criticisms is just nauseating when you compare what history will say about these two respectively. Bernstein will be forgotten in 100 years. Beethovan will never be absent.
Thank you for this video, it's as well argued as it is respectful. In my own opinion, three things most signify Beethoven's titanic range of musical accomplishments. First, that he took the Viennese tradition and challenged, defied, and modernized its defining principles. Second, his fiery temperament coupled with the growing despair of his deafness exposed not only the most passionate music, but one of the most sympathizable and relatable artistic figures in all history.
Well, thank you. I actually was expecting that. I just wanted to make sure that there is a different viewpoint to this. Perhaps I just felt this urge to "defend" Bernstein in return, because I haven't watched any conductor who was more enthusiastic performing a Beethoven Symphony and who was really going into the core of it. That speaks for itself. I understand and appreciate your intention to make things clear so as not to leave anyone in confusion about the quality of Beethoven's music.
I used to intrigue people with 17:04 and isolate that passage. That high note is so perfect, and yet it is so wrong. Beautiful, and only a master of harmony could pull that off.
I've found myself watching this video again and again and again. It never tires me. There's simply nothing else like it on youtube. My sincere thanks for taking the time to do this so thoroughly and respectfully.
Wow, this is such an excellent video, I had a harmony teacher who made similar statements about Beethoven, but somehow ended the segment saying that "he truly believed that Beethoven was one of the greatest composers of all time" Thank you professor for crafting such a perfect response to Leonard Bernstein.
Thank you sir, for this amazing, informative, eye-opening, and ( for me) a satisfying and heart touching video . I myself cannot listen to most of Beethoven's works without crying,😭 or all of his works without getting major chicken skin 🐓, and being completely hypnotized and incapsulated by the beauty his music resonates . I truly appreciate every word u say in this video, and the references. It's also very fun to watch. I particularly liked when u asked us to state the dynamic in the moonlight 3rd movement. That was my piece that Ellen Masaki assigned for me, my former teacher. I LOVED playing that awesome piece. ❣
I just found a new favorite channel... I have not had a chance to get the education that would lay a foundation for me to become a 'great' composer (and conductor) so I've had to take a self-directed road and make the best of it. Aside from listening, and reading as many scores and texts as I can, channels like this give me an opportunity to see things through another point of view. I really appreciate the depth you go into in your videos, and this one in particular was very nice, as it allowed me to witness two sides of an age-old debate. I have always admired Lenny Bernstein, but I cannot say I've always agreed with everything he says. While I understood the point he was trying to make overall, I think it was right of you to clarify the individual statements he made... They were the kind of damaging, blanket statements that seem more at home in random RUclips comments, than in coming from an influential voice in music. They certainly could give young people a fractured approach to the music of Beethoven, and that would be a tragedy. He is the very bridge between the classical traditions and the bombast of the romantic era, and deserves to be heralded as such. The more you learn of his work, the greater a feeling you can get for the music of the later 19th century, as well as a more thorough connection between those later composers, and the influence of Mozart, Haydn... Classicism in general. Baroque even! Well said, sir. I really enjoyed this video.
Bravo for this presentation. While I had never seen the interview of Lenny that you responded to here, I have some of Bernstein's books and he does comment that Beethoven had problems with orchestration and other aspects of his music. While I had been puzzled by these critiques, I never delved into them. You have managed to explain Bernstein's comments while not removing him from his own deserved and exalted position in music as well as explain a few aspects of Beethoven that had bothered me. The tendency of the trumpets to be overbearing on occasion has bothered me in regards to the Eroica 2nd mov't . I never understood why I have not been able to find a proper performance that does not hold the trumpets back. As to Bach not being perfect, I am sure he would agree, but I would not mind being imperfect as he was. Perhaps you can clear up another Bernstein conundrum for me. I came across a magazine article a few years back from the mid 1960s in which Lenny made the case that the Symphonic form was a museum piece. I believe he meant that it had no relevance to modern audiences. Mr B did write a symphony as did Copland and many others. Although he does seem to have a point in that there does not seem to be any mid to late 20th century symphonic pieces that have become staples of the orchestra. I am referring to the multi movement symphonic form as opposed to single movement symphonic works. I would be very interested in your take on this. If you have already made such a presentation, please point me in the right direction to view it.
Uploader 1 Bernstein 0 on this question of the intrinsic value of the components of Beethoven's art. I suspect Bernstein is just being cute here before this German actor who can hardly refute him, not being himself a professional musician.
Thank you for speaking out, I'm as far you can come from a musician but Lvb is the oxygen in my life and has been so for about fiftyfive years and we will hold on to each other for some more years.
He repeated what he said in this interview almost word for word in writing. It was just his opinion. And he certainly didn't consider himself above Beethoven. That written text ends with him basically saying that Beeethoven was God.
Absolutely wrong. Bernstein is totally right. People get offended over it, because they think he slams Beethoven, but the opposite is true. He points out that Beethovens genius is not easily to be captured and unique.
@@modestoney1577 As my video posits, Bernstein is not >totally< right - as he exaggerates Beethoven's perceived shortcomings in craft in order to underline his mastery of form. There's so much more to say about Beethoven that it's dangerous to take that approach. But certainly in terms of form, Beethoven was the master, no question. That mastery is based on a keen command of craft though.
@@OrchestrationOnline Well, your video and your opinion are not necessarily the absolute truth. You may have your opinion and i have mine. I do not see it that way.
@link1628 As I say in the video, the 1948 edition of Walter Piston's Harmony - this shows all the page numbers listed in the index in which the author uses a sample of Beethoven's music to illustrate a facet of harmonic practice.
"Melody" for the purposes of this video is defined as a phrase or series of phrases that contain a complete musical idea. "Motive" would be a short phrase fragment which can be used as a building block in many ways, in this case a cumulative series of motives which can have the same power as a more customary melodic arc.
Which passage are you talking about? Perhaps you should take another look. In both excerpts I used, the pianist was playing the score as written. I know this both by simply looking at his fingers and through relative pitch from my inner ear (especially as I've played the score myself many times, and taught it as well). Did you perhaps neglect to observe that the key signature was C# minor?
Well...it may seem like I prefer period performance recordings - but I'm partial to any performance or recording which either captures the essence of the composer's intentions, or brings something unique to the table, or even a mixture of both. I prefer to take each interpretation on its own merits, and not form an aggregate opinion about any performer. Rather, I try to find a quality of each exponent that is worthwhile, and follow that to its best conclusion.
Thank you so much for making these videos. I've been on a huge binge with them, and find them so enlightening, informative, and inspiring. Really appreciate you sharing your knowledge so generously!!!
Sure...and in fact, nowhere do I state that Beethoven was "the greatest melodist" - I simply point out that he was great, and show by example. Also, to say that his orchestration was groundbreaking is not a blanket statement. He broke ground, and that's simply a fact. Double-basses and timpani were given thematic material, even solos, and all instruments were pushed far past their previous technical limits. His symphonies opened the door for romantic composers, who built on his work.
This is one of my favorite videos of yours. I never expected Bernstein, who always seemed to admire every composer who ever lived, to say such things about Beethoven. However, I am not sure about 2 things: 1) At 16:32 and 20:07, you indicate the "Moonlight Sonata" as opus 28; isn't it opus 27, as shown at 16:51? 2) The chords that Bernstein plays at 17:23 are B flat major chords, not G major chords, so I think he's referring to the beginning of the Turkish march from "The Ruins of Athens."
thanks for the video. It's always good to know more about Beethoven. But really I don't think we need to pay so much attention to what Berstein said about Beethoven. Another story would be to discuss what Mozart, Schubert and the likes would say about Beethoven. This video gives too much importance to a guy who whose popularity will keep declining as time goes, while Beethoven's will keep increasing without pause.
As far as Harmony is concerned, I remember having to get all the way to theory iv (typically the final semester) before my teacher had us do rna of Beethoven's piano sonatas. And if my memory serves me, many of us were quite stumped at times. Also in response to the quote from Verdi about Beethoven's poor writing for voice, yes, his vocal writing isn't written in a way that is easy on the voice, but as my friend once said, "Beethoven doesn't care how hard it is for you, all he cares about is the music"
What you say about the texture is so extremely important. I have numerous integral recordings of Beethoven's Symphonies, but those I come back to the most are the ones that are either on period instruments or at least trying to play historically informed. This can even be achieved to a degree with the orchestras that usually don't play this way. I really like comparing the VPO under Bernstein and Rattle. Same orchestra with the same tradition, but completely different approach to Beethoven.
Great response from a genuine teacher. But whatever will be said or was said about The greatest Master of all time 'Beethoven' his creations speaks for him when words do fail.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for reinforcing what I had learned and always felt about my hero, Beethoven. Long after Mr. Bernstein will be totally forgotten, Beethoven shall remain as one of the best composers that have ever existed for countless generations to come.
Thank you for this! I was taken aback by Bernstein's comments... Somewhere along my short life I had heard he spent the entirety of his life trying to be the 'next Beethoven' (perhaps 'entirety' is a bit too much of a generalization). Anybody who hears something like that would assume ol' Lenny worshiped Mr. Beethoven. Though you know what they say about anyone who assumes. In any case, great video, and thanks again. The pursuit of perfection is so fleeting...It's something that's incredibly perplexing, especially as a young musician finishing his undergrad. Bernstein had such a fantastic mind, and I'm curious as to what he would have said in response to you. On the other hand, it's fantastic to be able to go to the symphony and have the opportunity to hear what the people of that time period would have heard. It's truly a blessing. Also, it warmed my soul to hear you include the op. 111 sonata. That piece is truly a treat!
Thank you for defending Beethoven. I, too, was fortunate enough to grow up with Leonard Bernstein & was a bit baffled when I came across this video of Bernstein on You Tube. I thought, possibly he was taking a step back from once saying, "Let's face it, Beethoven was the greatest composer to ever live". There seems to be a lot of snobbishness in the classical music world, unfortunately. I've listened to Bernstein speak on Beethoven many times. His emotion and enthusiasm always told me Beethoven moved him more than any other composer. At least that was my perception. Thank you again for your most thoughtful presentation. I'm pretty sure Beethoven would be thanking you as well.
This was the video that first introduced me to the 24th piano sonata, now, in the midst of the run of evaluation videos for the 2023 orchestration challenge, I can see how long you sat on your orchestration for the sonata, Thomas!
Thomas: First I want to thank for this wonderful deconstruction of Bernstein's notorious critique of Beethoven's music. You were right on all counts! Second: I was very curious about BRANDONPIANO and found out his full name is BRANDON HOU! (There is a violinist with the same name, so it was not easy to locate this musician!) So, he is around 22 years old now. I am not sure what he is going now. Oh well.
It's the emotional depth and directness/clarity that makes his music so interesting and moving. And as he was a tinkerer and perfectionist he could bring out that inherent talent better than most.
I just stumbled on your site via a music forum. One of the big gaps in my musical education (piano and voice) is orchestration, so I look forward to your other lectures. It was incredible to see yet again this pompous dissing of Beethoven by Bernstein. The older I get, the more I realize that I haven't scratched the surface of the Beethoven's greatness (coming from a person who either played or taught almost all of the sonatas and much of the chamber music). Like HOW COULD HE??? Recently I was sitting with a score of Beethoven's 9th and was amazed by the genius of shifting accents in the "Turkish march" episode of the last movement. There is much embedded humor in that as in other works where he does just that but also the brilliance of the scoring, even if modern instruments do not do enough justice to him (even though he was already deaf for 20 years). Balance can be rectified if a conductor thinks the brass is too strong, for instance. But not only that, there is commentary, like marginal notes, by other instruments to what is being played, like the orchestral instruments are speaking to one another. This is just one example. As for the slow movement of the 7th symphony, there is probably nothing so sublime as the repetition of those notes until perhaps Op. 111. How an eminent musician like Bernstein could miss all that is beyond me. But he wasn't always right even when speaking about things a college graduate should have known better like his explanation of sonata form as allegedly coming from binary AB. This is actually in one of his orchestral series! Also the Norton lectures are highly exaggerated with photos of him on practically every page (sometimes more than one). He was trying to incorporate a theory of language with music that had many theoretical holes in it. Some good ideas about the music, but really off with regard to a meta-theory, which after 40 years or so, never really caught on. One could understand his frustration in not being able to write the Great American Symphony or Opera, that latter done so brilliantly by George Gershwin in Porgy and Bess. He admitted wistfully somewhere the perfection of Rhapsody in Blue that he probably realized he himself would never have had that ease of bridging the two worlds of classical and jazz. Obviously Lennie could not openly admit of his jealousy towards the better American composer, who was a true genius, so took it out on Beethoven instead. Pity Gershwin didn't live longer, he would have buried Bernstein!.
Thanks again, I've been telling people for years about how Beethoven "slipped into boogey woogey for a while ,channeling boogey from the future or something, then after a while saying "whats this?" and falling back off it, but such is the incredible on the edge channeling inventiveness of his piano sonatas!! And you're thye only other one I've heard say this! Again Thanks!
Thank you so much Mr. Goss for giving my performance an opportunity to appear in your very professional video. It must be all hard work to organise clips together with your expertise :) It is very detailed indeed, it is just awesome!
Wow this video was great! I happened to notice a book title in the bit where you menion 1950s musicologists -- "Beethoven, Sibelius, and the ‘Profound Logic’ ". I think I had read somewhere, perhaps in "The Symphony" by Robert Simpson , that Sibelius was viewed by that particular author as the spiritual successor to Beethoven, symphonically speaking. I think he even mentioned how some critics attacked Sibelius orchestration and melodic style/ability. Anyway, thanks for this GREAT video.
I agree whole heartedly about Beethoven having an ear for what just the right next note is. When I was in piano lessons at college, I was given a piece to learn, and sense I'm not a very good sight reader, I more of went off of the feel of it. I didn't have to focus much on the page and what the notes or chords were; I could just follow the natural progression of the music with the score being a guide. After spending a few minutes of me repeating the melody and chords playing with my own accompaniment, I was amazed as to how naturally the music felt and sounded. Only then did I realize it was Beethoven, who continues to have this effect with almost every piece of his that I learn or listen too. Your description on his harmony puts it perfectly, -formal enough for the elite, simple enough for the common, and developed just right to challenge them both.
i just watched this last night and questioned some of what he said, though he has a very influential style about him. im glad you made this video, its very well informed and enlightening
It's great to see you're making videos again, they're always full of insight and I get a lot out of them! Thank you very much for going to the effort of making this well-presented argument, I appreciate it very much!
@Darkforrest408 I think you're misinterpreting my statement - it's not that scholars during that period were against Beethoven, it's just that they were using certain types of critical analysis to ferret out the flaws in his music in order to seem daring and profound, and eventually it became a bit of a cliché. After a while, the field of musicology basically said "so what" to all this and moved on. But thanks for the ups, I'm glad that you liked it!
I concur - this is an excellent video, and a great way to turn a negative into a positive. The fact that Beethoven's music IS so integrated compositionally makes explaining its individual elements a very challenging task, but I think you've really nailed it here. Speaking of nailing things though, I think we need to cut Lenny a little slack, since he's clearly macking it up big time with MS. It's just too bad that the cameras were rolling.
Thank you very much for mentioning that book! I just had a look at it too and I realized, this chap Bernstein knew what he was talking about. But it's not easy to follow. You have to get the full picture of his idea. And this is my understanding of it: Beethoven didn't mean to specialize in any single parts of his music like melody or harmony and so on, but managed to keep them as simple as possible to get an optimal impact. Because complication is the enemy of real straight communication.
This is a great video and it IS a good thing you corrected Bernstein here for the sake of young composers and music lovers of LvB in general. There's a video where he's supposed to be talking about the 9th symphony and he goes off on a tangent about dates & war & battles that is very boring. I do respect & admire Bernstein too as a conductor, composer, etc.
Prof. Goss - thank you for posting this video. I have some gentle refutations for your gentle refutation. First off, I was underwhelmed during the orchestration section in which you could have cited specific score excerpts that exemplified good orchestration. This would have clarified your own definition of good orchestration and proven more effective. Instead, you lectured me on why period instruments were better balanced than modern instruments and how later composers were inspired by his orchestration. It would have been more helpful for you to talk about specific sections and discussing what actually makes great orchestration. I was also unconvinced by your section on melody, as I was still unsure what you personally saw as a good melody. For me, and I suspect for Bernstein, a melody is something tuneful, something we leave the hall whistling after the performance. As much as I love the scherzo of the Eroica, the slow movement of the Pastoral, or the Ab Piano Sonata you yourself cited, I do not hum these regularly because they lack a certain kind of tunefulness that the likes of Tchaikovsky, Schubert, or Verdi were able to achieve. This is not to say that they're bad melodies, they're simply not as tuneful. Moreover, to hum just the melody leaves us lacking all the true meat of Beethoven's music. Which brings me to a most crucial point: I think you missed Bernstein's point entirely. His 'condemnations' of individual aspects of Beethoven's music were not attacks or retrospective condescension, but to help him make the more powerful and implied statement that the whole of Beethoven's music is sublime. It's very humanistic music: no individual on this Earth is more special than the other, no small clique or niche outstanding, it's the whole of humankind that is the true spectacle. The same goes for Beethoven's music. The whole product is the more important thing to talk about, not the individual aspects. The reason I don't hum Beethoven's melodies is because it is incomplete individually. It is only complete when are we experiencing all aspects together - harmony, melody, rhythm, and orchestration all in tandem in that alleged perfection that Bernstein talks about. Despite the romanticization, he isn't wrong. Why else do we constantly play and listen to Beethoven's music? Not because of the individual elements, but because of the whole product as I believe Beethoven would've wanted it. Few to no composers had achieved this before or after him which is why he is one of the greatest. This I think is Bernstein's point, not that Beethoven was incapable of any feats of prowess in individual aspects of composition. I don't think anyone in the world questions Beethoven's ability in any of those departments, not even Bernstein, so what are you defending him from? Finally, as a young musician, I find it condescending for you to try and 'protect' us. There is no 'damaging' conclusion to be made from Bernstein's statements. As a matter of fact, do you know what I gathered after watching that video of his? That Beethoven's music was pure genius. It only heightened my appreciation of his music, it did absolutely nothing to detract me from him. Because what damaging conclusions are there? OK, I'll be honest: if I want to check out great orchestration, I'm going to go look at Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov. If I want to see what good melodies are: Tchaikovsky, Verdi, Schubert. Unique and colorful harmonies: high Romantic Russians. Counterpoint and Fugue: Bach. If I want to check out an ultimate product: Beethoven. And that's the truest beauty of all of it. Beethoven's music had flaw in each department, yet has risen to the height of instant Classical music default for anyone from college music professors to laymen. So again, I have to ask: what are you defending Beethoven from?
Interesting points - and apologies if you feel condescended to. That is not my point. But perhaps you haven't seen what I have seen as an educator: musicians in development often parroting careless statements without analysing them. Certainly a polemic which invites polite disagreement is no condescension, is it? Or the insistence that we think deeper when someone of authority make a claim? You attempt to pull rhetorical power out of misinterpreting the title of the video, but in the end you know what defence Beethoven requires - that of fair analysis rather than deification through disproportional and misleading contrasts. Your answer is in itself a defence of Beethoven, in interpreting his qualities along your lines of thinking. As to misinterpreting Bernstein's intentions - I do in fact say that I know what Bernstein is doing here. Did you miss that? He's trying to make a case about the power of Beethoven's form, and belittling the components of that form in order to make the end result seem all the more astonishing. But certainly you must disagree with the comment "When you look at [these aspects of his technique], there's nothing there." No, every component exemplifies a deep and rich talent informed by a culmination of culture and intellectual progress, as I show at the end of the video. I don't have time to refute your points one-by-one (which by the way aren't that gentle - "underwhelmed" - really, is that what you say to a friend's face? What did I do to earn such casual disrespect and dismissal? Or the implication that I don't respect young composers' abilities to think for themselves?), but I think you make a subjective point about melodicity, in saying that it's defined by what's "tuneful." To my mind, that means only what you think it means. I back up my argument with melodic analysis - perhaps you can argue yours with the same degree of care. What's more, I teach orchestration for a living, coaching professional orchestrators for their premieres and film scoring work. My examples of analysis of orchestration are plentiful on my channel, and I saw no point in turning half this video into yet another orchestration lesson. But in fact, perhaps you missed that Bernstein's chief gripe was against Beethoven's balance problems. I addressed that point and moved on. Finally, though I do take responsibility for the ongoing education of thousands of composers here on the internet, I'm certainly no professor. Please, call me Thomas. :)
Simply put, the most informative and worthwhile You Tube video I have ever seen. It is spot-on in every respect. It places the appraisal of mankind's perhaps greatest artistic achievement (Beethoven's music) in the right context with a perfect balance of attention to detail and a comprehensive understanding of the subject matter. It succeeds because even though the motivation is a negative one (to help viewers evade any misleading understanding of the qualities of Beethoven's music) it offers a positive view of what makes Beethoven great - rather than merely pointing out the exaggerated nature of Bernstein's specific comments.
Gotta see what Bernstein means by that. I agree with him to a large extent, and it doesn't change the fact that Beethoven is my favorite composer of all time. Actually it makes me love him even more... Bernstein doesn't try to discredit Beethoven at all. In fact he only highlights why he is such a genius. Beethoven doesn't try to be good, in fact to a large extent, he is a destroyer of music (at least of his time). When you think about it, the 9th or the Grobe Fugue are monstrosities (or deformities at least) and were widely considered as such at the time. He doesn't try to make nice music. He just follows his path, his necessities. There is the gap that separates good musicians from geniuses, and the reason why we send Beethoven's music out in space and everybody forgot the "good" musicians of his time.
Nowhere do I say that Bernstein was actively discrediting Beethoven. That's not my point at all. My point is that he's framing the right argument in the wrong way - making a greater point about form while sacrificing Beethoven's mastery of craft on its altar. In fact, Beethoven was not only the supreme master of the Classical form, but he was also one of the greatest craft composers of all time. It doesn't make any sense to diminish the importance of the latter to prove the former.
DrFaustus Not that i want to be pedantic or something, but as a German (not native) speaker i just can't do anything about that one single mistake. It's Große Fuge, not Grobe fuge. German ß is just a second way to write ss, which is exact as an English s. You could writre just Grosse fuge or something like this
I think Bernstein is simply trying to show off to the ruggedly handsome Schell who he is clearly infatuated with. In the end of the clip he is also pointing out that he thinks Beethoven is the greatest composer.
I absolutely agree with you. You must always consider the context when evaluating someone's comments. I think that Bernstein was speaking extemporaneously and just went a bit hyperbolic in his comments to Schell. He was trying to say something to the effect that Beethoven's use of form is so extraordinary that his works are greater than the sum of their parts. And, Bernstein gets a bit carried away. Oops, even my hero might not be perfect at all times? Yeah. But Bernstein does not fail to mention what it is that truly distinguishes Beethoven -- that incredible inevitability of his writing such that you are transported from beginning to end without ever feeling lost along the way. I learned a few things from your video, too. Like why the trumpets sometimes stick out a bit -- hmm, not so much when played on the the instruments of his day!
Wow, this video was spectacular! I'm so glad I came across it. I would just like to point out, however, that in my case (although I'll bow to your experience as a teacher), I came across a similar Bernstein talk in Omnibus, about Beethoven's 5th symphony specifically, but also with references elsewhere, and despite hearing what he said about Beethoven's lack in all these areas (and Beethoven being one of my favourite composers), I was still very interested in learning as much as I can.
Thanks for this very, very interesting video. I think Bernstein himself would cringe at seeing that interview. A little wine, a close colleague, a contentious provocative subject......... can equal years of regrets. But, music is replete with contention and no giant is without critics. Anyway, thanks again. I really enjoyed this video. Ron
@stevemartinalmonds Manual of Harmony by E.F. Richter, 1867; A Treatise on Harmony by J. Humfrey Anger, 1905; Harmonielehre by Arnold Schönberg, 1922; Modern Harmony in its Theory and Practice by Arthur Foote and Walter B. Spalding, 1905; Applied Harmony by Carolyn A. Alchin, 1935; Gründliche Anweisung zur Composition by Johann Georg Albrechtsberger, 1790; Counterpoint, Strict and Free by Ebenezer Prout, 1890; The Homophonic Forms of Music Composition by Percy Goetschius, 1898; and several more.
Fabulous video - really informative discussion of two of my favourite composers. However, come on! - the whole "I get no kind of satisfaction over correcting Bernstein's statements" was very tongue-in-cheek :-) Really enjoyable stuff.
Well, my whole point was that music students and less informed entry-level music lovers would take Bernstein's critique verbatim - and didn't you get that? Of course I understand that Bernstein is just spouting off, and in fact I mention that early on. As to not really having to defend Beethoven - don't kid yourself. People are constantly making misinformed decisions about taste, and spouting off exaggeration as historical fact all the time. I'm just trying to save them some embarrassment.
+OrchestrationOnline Thank you 1000x for this great video! I loved it. I myself thought that what Bernstein was saying in that video was unfair, one-sided, sometimes flat out incorrect, and definitely meant only to serve his final "mystical" point about the "inevitability" of LvB's music, which one can agree with or not, but it surely doesn't justify the nonsense he talks before it. (One tiny detail though: Could you correct the wrong opus no. of the "Moonlight" Sonata? I saw that you wrote Op. 28/2 twice, instead of Op. 27/2.) Thanks again and greetings from Warsaw :)
Exactly. Bernstein uses an experiment by Beethoven (S.7 M.2) to try to say all his music sounds like that. It would be the same as basing your entire judgement on the melodicity of Lennon and McCartney based on just the song "Julia," which was an experiment in how long of a melody you could make from one note.
No no no, Gabe, no offense taken, please don't worry about that. This video is put out there in the spirit of reasoned debate, so I was just answering in that context. I've had a couple of other comments on other videos recently that were unnecessarily disputatious, so I was just trying to keep the debate on track. But I didn't find anything derogatory. I really do want posts that intelligently debate the points in the video, so please continue. Your remarks are interesting.
Beethoven was, outright, a man possessing the greatest degree of balance between emotionally and intelligently written music.
Awesome description, very well put.
Underrated comment
He was not a man, but a God.
Beethoven is, in my opinion, the master of harmony, colour and orchestration. He inspires me in most of my work... Most revolutionary composer of all time...
I've gotten the impression that Beethoven was a perfectionist, never quite happy with his craft. It's not surprising he would feel his fugues were of insufficient quality.
I think you're right.
I remember when I was 13, I had a teacher once mention that they thought Tchaikovsky was a bad orchestrator. That's stuck with me since, so whenever someone would mention to me that they liked Tchaikovsky I felt like I had to mention that I thought he was a bad orchestrator even though I really had no opinion on the matter. This was a helpful video in making me realise that statements like that don't always hold up. Thanks!
Wow, that's like saying Bach was bad in fugues and counterpoint
He was probably referring to the impossible harp part in waltz of the flowers. Tchaikovsky wasn't a master of orchestration, (from my experience, he seems to actually have been worse than Liszt), but calling him a bad orchestrator is just silly.
@@composaboi Tchaikovsky was definitely a master of orchestration, from an artistic standpoint at least. From what I've seen it seems to be generally regarded as one of his strongest suits, in fact.
There’s certainly a “workmanlike” quality to some of his writing, especially in his more bombastic passages. But it’s clear that he knew how to get a fantastic sound out of the orchestra
😂
The Late Quartets should put to rest any criticisms aimed at Beethoven.
@Jone Macjone Amazing quote...thanks!!! I agree totally on Brahm's view. Alas, Brahms is at his weakest when trying to match Beethoven...eg Symph 1, which is written to impress...and its insincerity shows! As for Bach's harmony and dissonance...the b minor Mass is the Everest of music!
and I say this as a great fan of Brahms!! But look at the repeat of his 3rd symph 1st mvt...Beethoven would never have allowed the momentum to be arrested thus!
Your everywhere william
Late sonatas as well
Not just late, but early and middle too.
I am a college professor in composition and I have students who are influenced by Bernstein`s comments. I agree with you totally.
Thanks for the support. Bernstein was into many things musial, for shock value.
Some of us come to his conclusions independently, esp the pianists who see his piano works as dry and too structural.
@@mckernan603 what? I love playing Beethoven
This video should actually be shown and even thoroughly analysed in classes
For some reason, RUclips is not allowing me to reply directly to Lee Smith's interesting comment. But here it is. I don't understand why my opening qualifications made such little impression on someone who is so obviously thorough in their observations of things. Nowhere in my video do I state that Bernstein was "a man unimpressed with Beethoven." I honor and credit Bernstein as being one of the great minds of contemporary music, and I assign value his contribution to discourse. In fact, it's obvious to all that Bernstein is more impressed by Beethoven than anyone else in history, from the very excerpts I show.
I urge Ms. Smith to re-watch my upload, and take careful note of the way I frame my argument. It is far from an attack on Bernstein's personality, nor of his attitude towards Beethoven. It is, rather, a precise, point-by-point objection to the framing of an argument which might easily lead young musicians to a damaging conclusion. And I firmly believe that Bernstein would welcome such clarification, and engage in my objections with whatever attention they might merit. He might agree with some of my points, and admit that he'd been exaggerating, or state that I'd taken things out of context. But I doubt that he'd conclude that I'd painted him as disrespecting Beethoven.
Ms. Smith might paint the video in question as a 'single, off-the-cuff "BS session" ' - but the fact remains that Bernstein meant what he said in that moment, and the video went out into the world with his blessings. It therefore has all the same relevance to his body of public thoughts as any other piece of his preserved wisdom. And contrary to what one might think, I actually agree with much of what he says overall in that video, and I fully understand his meaning. But his subjectivity is worthy of discussion in the culture of musical analysis of which he was a strong part. You cannot escape that.
OrchestrationOnline
Im shocked that Bernstein said that about Beethoven ....Anyway good video ....
I don't understand. Lenny's whole point in the discussion was to show what an incredible genius LVB was! He was super impressed by LVB!
ruclips.net/video/9v_8FN0u07E/видео.html
Thank you Thomas Goss for this excellent clarification. I think Bernstein was trying to impress an obviously devoted fan by boldly trashing Beethoven's isolated aspects, then grandly summarizing Ludwig's "form" as the savior of it all. It is tragic that the video was taken literally by many, including me. After seeing it, I was wondering what Bernstein was talking about. Bad at melodies? Um, Moonlight Sonata?
Beethoven's super-simple initial notes in symphonies were actually as hyper compressed as E=MC^2. The apparently simple statement was then elaborated into a complex and beautiful weave of music, like the underlying math of relativity.
As for prophetic syncopation, several years ago I heard a scrap of previously undiscovered Beethoven music that he wrote shortly before his death.
It was ragtime.
I wish I could listen to the fifth Symphony for the first time again
I would recommend psychedelics as a means to not only simulating the first experience, but granting you access to exploring the music like you never imagined. Psilocybin is one of my favourite tools.
@@davidbudo5551 No.
B.M. Almeida yes.
@@davidbudo5551 Don't do drugs kids
i find this comment a bit funny, because music especially- to me- improves the more i hear it. on a first listen, i've no understanding of the structure nor any expectation of the greatest parts. they simply wash over as i listen. after a hundred listens, i will know the piece so well that it affects me much more greatly.
If all Beethoven had ever written was the Moonlight Sonata, he'd still be one of the greats. That thing still haunts my soul decades after I first heard it. I remember first hearing it when a girlfriend played it for me in University (I know, its weird I didnt know it before that, still...) and I was almost in tears. It was such a sad but reflective tune.
well, he wrote moon light sonata since he fall in love with one of his students, got rejected, so he wrote moon light. heart breaking? popular, Beethoven is popular, maybe he is Justin Bibber in our time. Beethoven was popular at his time than Bach on his era.
@@jielangone7475 Both of your points are incorrect. He didn't have Julie Brunswick in mind when writing his piano sonata no. 14. He only later dedicated it to her. He also only considered marrying her in his letter, but never actually proposed to her.
Your second point that Beethoven was a lot more popular and well known than Bach is also incorrect. What you meant to say is that Bach was less known as a composer (because he only ever published four works and considered composing a hobby). He was basically a superstar of the classical world, and so were three of his sons who decided to become composers. He was extremely well known as a harpsichordist and organist, well known enough to most likely meet with Händel, a great and well known opera composer. He was also a cantor in an important Protestant church in Leipzig, Holy Roman Empire. That's partly what made his sons so famous, as well as their talent of course.
Bernstein just seems to be overstating his case for rhetorical effect. That's not necessarily bad musicology- just bad argumentation in a casual bull session. God preserve me from ever having to stand by every time I've shot my mouth off to give my point some undeserved oomph.
That said, I think you have a point about new students not totally understanding that Bernstein is being intentionally flippant here. Great video, too!
+Arthur Ackerman Thanks Arthur.
Good point
This is an idea he puts across in his book the joy of music much earlier in his Joy of music. Almost word for word!
All of that and what that man said are also BS and you don't even know it.
''Bernstein is being intentionally flippant here''.... you people today have no shame.
This is really excellent stuff - the kind of material that makes RUclips really great. I'm just getting into orchestration, and would love more on the subject. Keep up the superb work!
Bernstein was a great composer, a great conductor, a great educator, and a very interesting person. But he was also often a fantastic bullshit artist when speaking about music. His passion and bravado, and perhaps no small amount of egotism, often led him to make very questionable statements in the service of whatever point he was trying to make. For example, in his Norton Lectures, The Unanswered Question, he proves he is quite willing to hold court on subjects of which he is completely ignorant when he mentions "the Indian scale," and proceeds to play some kind of exotic nonsense, pretending he actually knew something about the subject. Even the dilettante Indian classical music lover could call him out on that. There is no "Indian scale." But there are hundreds of ragas, based on various scales in different forms, some simple, and some quite complex, with zig-zagging ascending and descending patterns, and, of course, many different intervals and other features. However, I still admire him. And Beethoven is practically a God to me. And I suspect he was, also, to Bernstein, who may have simply been trying to be provocative on that particular day for the sake of his German associate.
Roberto Riggio Now here you have completely explained the complex egotistical show off and to a certain extent pseudo intellectual side of this incredibly complex man ...I have never questioned his conducting abilities and his massive amount of charisma, also he was vain but exceedingly attractive,these qualities certainly got a massive following but his casual put downs of Beethoven, and yes a lot of light weight comments thrown about in his Norton Lectures and flashing bits from Chomski etc do show him to be more interested in making an impression,I could not personally believe that Bernstein could make shallow remarks about Beethoven and also so derogatory the only excuse I could come up with was that he was flirting and playing around to gain attention,which was not needed anyway as he was centre stage anyway. ,I thought that Maestro Bernstein was a terrific musician conductor and absolutely fascinating person,but sometimes found myself questioning his vanity and ignorance thinking himself to be vastly more superior than his colleagues.Marvellous and exasperating all in one ........Maestro Bernstein R.I.P.
Thanks for this. For all his great contributions, Bernstein did at times let his ego get in the way and you have given us a great example of this. I hope to use your videos in my orchestration class.
I salute you for your noble act of defense. This deserves more views and likes.
Many thanks.
As to J.S. Bach's flaws, I would only point to his own estimation of his talents, which was not without self-critique; and to the circumstances which led to the creation of the Musical Offering. By our own standards, that may be merely a case of perfection finding ever greater heights - but we are only mortal after all.
Wow! I can't believe Bernstein said those things! I never would of thought those words would be coming out of his mouth. Quite surprising. Thanks for the awesome video, you really defended him well. I have personally played Beethoven's Seventh as a 2nd violinist, and all I can say is that It is quite the amazing piece that in no way falls under the blatant and harsh criticisms of Bernstein. Again, I'm really glad you took the time to rightly counter those statements and fully flesh out your argument in the video as you did.
One cannot define Beethoven adequately. What can one say about that last section of the 5th you played at the end of your video, for example, that fully describes its power ? He is simply the massive pillar upon which we reach a transcendence through music.
Funny thing, I don't hear much melody in Bernstein's music but I hear an enormous amount of melody in all of Beethoven's music...Go figure?
Somewhere (Adagio from West Side Story) has a sweet melody.
Je vous remercie grandement. Après mes études durant 40 ans de Beethoven je me sens une joie indescriptible dans les mots que vous disez.
Thanks so much for your kind words. I'm glad you liked the video.
I love how u put excerpts of his 4th symphony several times. It's my favorite, of my favorites. Totally underrated .
Bernstein used to ignore Beethoven's tempo markings, so frankly I've always preferred Von Karajan's interpretations.
When it comes to Beethoven, Bernstein is the one who is deaf.
Isn't it obvious that Bernstein is a midget ... an envious, less than midget ... compared to Beethovan? Listening to this set of criticisms is just nauseating when you compare what history will say about these two respectively. Bernstein will be forgotten in 100 years. Beethovan will never be absent.
underrated comment
LMFAOOOOOO HELP ME
THIS IS THE BEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN IN MY LIFE
Thank you for this video, it's as well argued as it is respectful. In my own opinion, three things most signify Beethoven's titanic range of musical accomplishments. First, that he took the Viennese tradition and challenged, defied, and modernized its defining principles. Second, his fiery temperament coupled with the growing despair of his deafness exposed not only the most passionate music, but one of the most sympathizable and relatable artistic figures in all history.
Well, thank you. I actually was expecting that. I just wanted to make sure that there is a different viewpoint to this.
Perhaps I just felt this urge to "defend" Bernstein in return, because I haven't watched any conductor who was more enthusiastic performing a Beethoven Symphony and who was really going into the core of it. That speaks for itself.
I understand and appreciate your intention to make things clear so as not to leave anyone in confusion about the quality of Beethoven's music.
I used to intrigue people with 17:04 and isolate that passage. That high note is so perfect, and yet it is so wrong. Beautiful, and only a master of harmony could pull that off.
I've found myself watching this video again and again and again. It never tires me. There's simply nothing else like it on youtube. My sincere thanks for taking the time to do this so thoroughly and respectfully.
I love this! Beethoven was a master of all musical forms. But the most beautiful melody for me is from the slow movement of the 9th symphony.
That movement gets clouded by the 1st, 2nd and 4th movements. The third movement is, to me, Beethoven at his most melodic.
Wow, this is such an excellent video, I had a harmony teacher who made similar statements about Beethoven, but somehow ended the segment saying that "he truly believed that Beethoven was one of the greatest composers of all time"
Thank you professor for crafting such a perfect response to Leonard Bernstein.
Thank you sir, for this amazing, informative, eye-opening, and ( for me) a satisfying and heart touching video . I myself cannot listen to most of Beethoven's works without crying,😭 or all of his works without getting major chicken skin 🐓, and being completely hypnotized and incapsulated by the beauty his music resonates . I truly appreciate every word u say in this video, and the references. It's also very fun to watch. I particularly liked when u asked us to state the dynamic in the moonlight 3rd movement. That was my piece that Ellen Masaki assigned for me, my former teacher. I LOVED playing that awesome piece. ❣
I just found a new favorite channel... I have not had a chance to get the education that would lay a foundation for me to become a 'great' composer (and conductor) so I've had to take a self-directed road and make the best of it. Aside from listening, and reading as many scores and texts as I can, channels like this give me an opportunity to see things through another point of view. I really appreciate the depth you go into in your videos, and this one in particular was very nice, as it allowed me to witness two sides of an age-old debate.
I have always admired Lenny Bernstein, but I cannot say I've always agreed with everything he says. While I understood the point he was trying to make overall, I think it was right of you to clarify the individual statements he made... They were the kind of damaging, blanket statements that seem more at home in random RUclips comments, than in coming from an influential voice in music. They certainly could give young people a fractured approach to the music of Beethoven, and that would be a tragedy. He is the very bridge between the classical traditions and the bombast of the romantic era, and deserves to be heralded as such. The more you learn of his work, the greater a feeling you can get for the music of the later 19th century, as well as a more thorough connection between those later composers, and the influence of Mozart, Haydn... Classicism in general. Baroque even!
Well said, sir. I really enjoyed this video.
Very thought provoking. I can not dispute anything what this man has said, Beethoven was a genius.
Bravo for this presentation. While I had never seen the interview of Lenny that you responded to here, I have some of Bernstein's books and he does comment that Beethoven had problems with orchestration and other aspects of his music. While I had been puzzled by these critiques, I never delved into them. You have managed to explain Bernstein's comments while not removing him from his own deserved and exalted position in music as well as explain a few aspects of Beethoven that had bothered me. The tendency of the trumpets to be overbearing on occasion has bothered me in regards to the Eroica 2nd mov't . I never understood why I have not been able to find a proper performance that does not hold the trumpets back.
As to Bach not being perfect, I am sure he would agree, but I would not mind being imperfect as he was.
Perhaps you can clear up another Bernstein conundrum for me. I came across a magazine article a few years back from the mid 1960s in which Lenny made the case that the Symphonic form was a museum piece. I believe he meant that it had no relevance to modern audiences. Mr B did write a symphony as did Copland and many others. Although he does seem to have a point in that there does not seem to be any mid to late 20th century symphonic pieces that have become staples of the orchestra. I am referring to the multi movement symphonic form as opposed to single movement symphonic works. I would be very interested in your take on this. If you have already made such a presentation, please point me in the right direction to view it.
Uploader 1 Bernstein 0 on this question of the intrinsic value of the components of Beethoven's art. I suspect Bernstein is just being cute here before this German actor who can hardly refute him, not being himself a professional musician.
i would mention his contribution to sonata form and motive work. This alone makes he a great master.
Thanks for completely understanding and sharing the spirit in which I made this video!
One of the most beautiful melodies that I´ve heard is the second movement of triple concert, the perfect example of Beethoven´s creativity
Thank you for speaking out, I'm as far you can come from a musician but Lvb is the oxygen in my life and has been so for about fiftyfive years and we will hold on to each other for some more years.
Bernstein was drunk and trying to impress his cool actor friend by being a genius that was appreciative of beethoven but above him somehow.
He repeated what he said in this interview almost word for word in writing. It was just his opinion. And he certainly didn't consider himself above Beethoven. That written text ends with him basically saying that Beeethoven was God.
Absolutely wrong. Bernstein is totally right. People get offended over it, because they think he slams Beethoven, but the opposite is true.
He points out that Beethovens genius is not easily to be captured and unique.
@@modestoney1577 As my video posits, Bernstein is not >totally< right - as he exaggerates Beethoven's perceived shortcomings in craft in order to underline his mastery of form. There's so much more to say about Beethoven that it's dangerous to take that approach. But certainly in terms of form, Beethoven was the master, no question. That mastery is based on a keen command of craft though.
@@OrchestrationOnline Well, your video and your opinion are not necessarily the absolute truth. You may have your opinion and i have mine. I do not see it that way.
@@modestoney1577 If you don't think that Beethoven's mastery of form was based on mastery of craft, then what else could it possibly be based upon?
13:42 I am happy that you mentioned this moment. By the way contrapunto, and it sounds like the ode to joy.
Thanks very much for the feedback - it is most welcome!
@link1628 As I say in the video, the 1948 edition of Walter Piston's Harmony - this shows all the page numbers listed in the index in which the author uses a sample of Beethoven's music to illustrate a facet of harmonic practice.
"Melody" for the purposes of this video is defined as a phrase or series of phrases that contain a complete musical idea. "Motive" would be a short phrase fragment which can be used as a building block in many ways, in this case a cumulative series of motives which can have the same power as a more customary melodic arc.
Thanks for your outlook as a player. Beethoven had some of the best cello lines ever.
Which passage are you talking about? Perhaps you should take another look. In both excerpts I used, the pianist was playing the score as written. I know this both by simply looking at his fingers and through relative pitch from my inner ear (especially as I've played the score myself many times, and taught it as well).
Did you perhaps neglect to observe that the key signature was C# minor?
Well...it may seem like I prefer period performance recordings - but I'm partial to any performance or recording which either captures the essence of the composer's intentions, or brings something unique to the table, or even a mixture of both.
I prefer to take each interpretation on its own merits, and not form an aggregate opinion about any performer. Rather, I try to find a quality of each exponent that is worthwhile, and follow that to its best conclusion.
Thank you so much for making these videos. I've been on a huge binge with them, and find them so enlightening, informative, and inspiring. Really appreciate you sharing your knowledge so generously!!!
Thanks a bunch, Gretchen! I appreciate your feedback very much!
Sure...and in fact, nowhere do I state that Beethoven was "the greatest melodist" - I simply point out that he was great, and show by example. Also, to say that his orchestration was groundbreaking is not a blanket statement. He broke ground, and that's simply a fact. Double-basses and timpani were given thematic material, even solos, and all instruments were pushed far past their previous technical limits. His symphonies opened the door for romantic composers, who built on his work.
Bitte schön, Christoph! You've exactly captured my intent in creating this debate/analysis.
This is one of my favorite videos of yours. I never expected Bernstein, who always seemed to admire every composer who ever lived, to say such things about Beethoven. However, I am not sure about 2 things: 1) At 16:32 and 20:07, you indicate the "Moonlight Sonata" as opus 28; isn't it opus 27, as shown at 16:51? 2) The chords that Bernstein plays at 17:23 are B flat major chords, not G major chords, so I think he's referring to the beginning of the Turkish march from "The Ruins of Athens."
thanks for the video. It's always good to know more about Beethoven. But really I don't think we need to pay so much attention to what Berstein said about Beethoven. Another story would be to discuss what Mozart, Schubert and the likes would say about Beethoven. This video gives too much importance to a guy who whose popularity will keep declining as time goes, while Beethoven's will keep increasing without pause.
No worries, and thanks very much for your perspective!
As far as Harmony is concerned, I remember having to get all the way to theory iv (typically the final semester) before my teacher had us do rna of Beethoven's piano sonatas. And if my memory serves me, many of us were quite stumped at times.
Also in response to the quote from Verdi about Beethoven's poor writing for voice, yes, his vocal writing isn't written in a way that is easy on the voice, but as my friend once said, "Beethoven doesn't care how hard it is for you, all he cares about is the music"
What you say about the texture is so extremely important. I have numerous integral recordings of Beethoven's Symphonies, but those I come back to the most are the ones that are either on period instruments or at least trying to play historically informed. This can even be achieved to a degree with the orchestras that usually don't play this way. I really like comparing the VPO under Bernstein and Rattle. Same orchestra with the same tradition, but completely different approach to Beethoven.
Great response from a genuine teacher. But whatever will be said or was said about The greatest Master of all time 'Beethoven' his creations speaks for him when words do fail.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for reinforcing what I had learned and always felt about my hero, Beethoven. Long after Mr. Bernstein will be totally forgotten, Beethoven shall remain as one of the best composers that have ever existed for countless generations to come.
Thank you for this! I was taken aback by Bernstein's comments... Somewhere along my short life I had heard he spent the entirety of his life trying to be the 'next Beethoven' (perhaps 'entirety' is a bit too much of a generalization). Anybody who hears something like that would assume ol' Lenny worshiped Mr. Beethoven. Though you know what they say about anyone who assumes. In any case, great video, and thanks again. The pursuit of perfection is so fleeting...It's something that's incredibly perplexing, especially as a young musician finishing his undergrad. Bernstein had such a fantastic mind, and I'm curious as to what he would have said in response to you. On the other hand, it's fantastic to be able to go to the symphony and have the opportunity to hear what the people of that time period would have heard. It's truly a blessing. Also, it warmed my soul to hear you include the op. 111 sonata. That piece is truly a treat!
Love the fact you used Coriolan Overture. Such an underrated piece, I've never heard it being used.
My pleasure. It is one terrific piece of dramatic music, and just perfect for the start of a musicological polemic.
Thank you for defending Beethoven. I, too, was fortunate enough to grow up with Leonard Bernstein & was a bit baffled when I came across this video of Bernstein on You Tube. I thought, possibly he was taking a step back from once saying, "Let's face it, Beethoven was the greatest composer to ever live". There seems to be a lot of snobbishness in the classical music world, unfortunately. I've listened to Bernstein speak on Beethoven many times. His emotion and enthusiasm always told me Beethoven moved him more than any other composer. At least that was my perception. Thank you again for your most thoughtful presentation. I'm pretty sure Beethoven would be thanking you as well.
This was the video that first introduced me to the 24th piano sonata, now, in the midst of the run of evaluation videos for the 2023 orchestration challenge, I can see how long you sat on your orchestration for the sonata, Thomas!
Thanks for the insights! A cellist would have a particularly important perspective worth sharing in regards to Beethoven's style and artistic voice...
Thomas: First I want to thank for this wonderful deconstruction of Bernstein's notorious critique of Beethoven's music. You were right on all counts! Second: I was very curious about BRANDONPIANO and found out his full name is BRANDON HOU! (There is a violinist with the same name, so it was not easy to locate this musician!) So, he is around 22 years old now. I am not sure what he is going now. Oh well.
It's the emotional depth and directness/clarity that makes his music so interesting and moving.
And as he was a tinkerer and perfectionist he could bring out that inherent talent better than most.
I just stumbled on your site via a music forum. One of the big gaps in my musical education (piano and voice) is orchestration, so I look forward to your other lectures.
It was incredible to see yet again this pompous dissing of Beethoven by Bernstein. The older I get, the more I realize that I haven't scratched the surface of the Beethoven's greatness (coming from a person who either played or taught almost all of the sonatas and much of the chamber music). Like HOW COULD HE???
Recently I was sitting with a score of Beethoven's 9th and was amazed by the genius of shifting accents in the "Turkish march" episode of the last movement. There is much embedded humor in that as in other works where he does just that but also the brilliance of the scoring, even if modern instruments do not do enough justice to him (even though he was already deaf for 20 years). Balance can be rectified if a conductor thinks the brass is too strong, for instance. But not only that, there is commentary, like marginal notes, by other instruments to what is being played, like the orchestral instruments are speaking to one another. This is just one example.
As for the slow movement of the 7th symphony, there is probably nothing so sublime as the repetition of those notes until perhaps Op. 111. How an eminent musician like Bernstein could miss all that is beyond me. But he wasn't always right even when speaking about things a college graduate should have known better like his explanation of sonata form as allegedly coming from binary AB. This is actually in one of his orchestral series!
Also the Norton lectures are highly exaggerated with photos of him on practically every page (sometimes more than one). He was trying to incorporate a theory of language with music that had many theoretical holes in it. Some good ideas about the music, but really off with regard to a meta-theory, which after 40 years or so, never really caught on.
One could understand his frustration in not being able to write the Great American Symphony or Opera, that latter done so brilliantly by George Gershwin in Porgy and Bess.
He admitted wistfully somewhere the perfection of Rhapsody in Blue that he probably realized he himself would never have had that ease of bridging the two worlds of classical and jazz. Obviously Lennie could not openly admit of his jealousy towards the better American composer, who was a true genius, so took it out on Beethoven instead. Pity Gershwin didn't live longer, he would have buried Bernstein!.
I'm finding this channel very late. What a great service you offer to all of us. The Boulanger videos are especially fascinating! Thank you!
The 13:23 excerpt is one of my most treasured passages.
Thanks again, I've been telling people for years about how Beethoven "slipped into boogey woogey for a while ,channeling boogey from the future or something, then after a while saying "whats this?" and falling back off it, but such is the incredible on the edge channeling inventiveness of his piano sonatas!! And you're thye only other one I've heard say this! Again Thanks!
Great video, Thomas! Thank you for all the work you had when preparing this! I'll show some examples here in my talks!
Thank you so much Mr. Goss for giving my performance an opportunity to appear in your very professional video. It must be all hard work to organise clips together with your expertise :)
It is very detailed indeed, it is just awesome!
Wow this video was great! I happened to notice a book title in the bit where you menion 1950s musicologists -- "Beethoven, Sibelius, and the ‘Profound Logic’ ". I think I had read somewhere, perhaps in "The Symphony" by Robert Simpson , that Sibelius was viewed by that particular author as the spiritual successor to Beethoven, symphonically speaking. I think he even mentioned how some critics attacked Sibelius orchestration and melodic style/ability. Anyway, thanks for this GREAT video.
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback!
I agree whole heartedly about Beethoven having an ear for what just the right next note is. When I was in piano lessons at college, I was given a piece to learn, and sense I'm not a very good sight reader, I more of went off of the feel of it. I didn't have to focus much on the page and what the notes or chords were; I could just follow the natural progression of the music with the score being a guide. After spending a few minutes of me repeating the melody and chords playing with my own accompaniment, I was amazed as to how naturally the music felt and sounded. Only then did I realize it was Beethoven, who continues to have this effect with almost every piece of his that I learn or listen too. Your description on his harmony puts it perfectly, -formal enough for the elite, simple enough for the common, and developed just right to challenge them both.
What an insightful video! Thank you so much for going through the trouble of argumenting so well!
I love Louis to the letter
+m k Thanks for your kind and generous comment, Aurora! I think Bernstein himself would have wanted to read it.
Beethoven's 5th piano concerto 2nd movement is also beautiful
Thank you maestro Goss! Your videos are very useful for me as a cellist and arranger! With all my respect!
@hermelindoruiz Su bienvenida, Hermelindo! Respect is what it's all about.
i just watched this last night and questioned some of what he said, though he has a very influential style about him. im glad you made this video, its very well informed and enlightening
It's great to see you're making videos again, they're always full of insight and I get a lot out of them! Thank you very much for going to the effort of making this well-presented argument, I appreciate it very much!
Hi Thomas,
thanks so much for taking the time to give me all of the information regarding the theory texts used in the video.
best regards,
Steve :-)
@Darkforrest408 I think you're misinterpreting my statement - it's not that scholars during that period were against Beethoven, it's just that they were using certain types of critical analysis to ferret out the flaws in his music in order to seem daring and profound, and eventually it became a bit of a cliché. After a while, the field of musicology basically said "so what" to all this and moved on.
But thanks for the ups, I'm glad that you liked it!
I concur - this is an excellent video, and a great way to turn a negative into a positive. The fact that Beethoven's music IS so integrated compositionally makes explaining its individual elements a very challenging task, but I think you've really nailed it here.
Speaking of nailing things though, I think we need to cut Lenny a little slack, since he's clearly macking it up big time with MS. It's just too bad that the cameras were rolling.
Thank you very much for mentioning that book! I just had a look at it too and I realized, this chap Bernstein knew what he was talking about. But it's not easy to follow. You have to get the full picture of his idea. And this is my understanding of it: Beethoven didn't mean to specialize in any single parts of his music like melody or harmony and so on, but managed to keep them as simple as possible to get an optimal impact. Because complication is the enemy of real straight communication.
This is a great video and it IS a good thing you corrected Bernstein here for the sake of young composers and music lovers of LvB in general. There's a video where he's supposed to be talking about the 9th symphony and he goes off on a tangent about dates & war & battles that is very boring. I do respect & admire Bernstein too as a conductor, composer, etc.
Prof. Goss - thank you for posting this video. I have some gentle refutations for your gentle refutation.
First off, I was underwhelmed during the orchestration section in which you could have cited specific score excerpts that exemplified good orchestration. This would have clarified your own definition of good orchestration and proven more effective. Instead, you lectured me on why period instruments were better balanced than modern instruments and how later composers were inspired by his orchestration. It would have been more helpful for you to talk about specific sections and discussing what actually makes great orchestration.
I was also unconvinced by your section on melody, as I was still unsure what you personally saw as a good melody. For me, and I suspect for Bernstein, a melody is something tuneful, something we leave the hall whistling after the performance. As much as I love the scherzo of the Eroica, the slow movement of the Pastoral, or the Ab Piano Sonata you yourself cited, I do not hum these regularly because they lack a certain kind of tunefulness that the likes of Tchaikovsky, Schubert, or Verdi were able to achieve. This is not to say that they're bad melodies, they're simply not as tuneful. Moreover, to hum just the melody leaves us lacking all the true meat of Beethoven's music.
Which brings me to a most crucial point: I think you missed Bernstein's point entirely. His 'condemnations' of individual aspects of Beethoven's music were not attacks or retrospective condescension, but to help him make the more powerful and implied statement that the whole of Beethoven's music is sublime. It's very humanistic music: no individual on this Earth is more special than the other, no small clique or niche outstanding, it's the whole of humankind that is the true spectacle. The same goes for Beethoven's music. The whole product is the more important thing to talk about, not the individual aspects. The reason I don't hum Beethoven's melodies is because it is incomplete individually. It is only complete when are we experiencing all aspects together - harmony, melody, rhythm, and orchestration all in tandem in that alleged perfection that Bernstein talks about. Despite the romanticization, he isn't wrong. Why else do we constantly play and listen to Beethoven's music? Not because of the individual elements, but because of the whole product as I believe Beethoven would've wanted it. Few to no composers had achieved this before or after him which is why he is one of the greatest. This I think is Bernstein's point, not that Beethoven was incapable of any feats of prowess in individual aspects of composition. I don't think anyone in the world questions Beethoven's ability in any of those departments, not even Bernstein, so what are you defending him from?
Finally, as a young musician, I find it condescending for you to try and 'protect' us. There is no 'damaging' conclusion to be made from Bernstein's statements. As a matter of fact, do you know what I gathered after watching that video of his? That Beethoven's music was pure genius. It only heightened my appreciation of his music, it did absolutely nothing to detract me from him. Because what damaging conclusions are there? OK, I'll be honest: if I want to check out great orchestration, I'm going to go look at Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov. If I want to see what good melodies are: Tchaikovsky, Verdi, Schubert. Unique and colorful harmonies: high Romantic Russians. Counterpoint and Fugue: Bach. If I want to check out an ultimate product: Beethoven. And that's the truest beauty of all of it. Beethoven's music had flaw in each department, yet has risen to the height of instant Classical music default for anyone from college music professors to laymen. So again, I have to ask: what are you defending Beethoven from?
Interesting points - and apologies if you feel condescended to. That is not my point. But perhaps you haven't seen what I have seen as an educator: musicians in development often parroting careless statements without analysing them. Certainly a polemic which invites polite disagreement is no condescension, is it? Or the insistence that we think deeper when someone of authority make a claim? You attempt to pull rhetorical power out of misinterpreting the title of the video, but in the end you know what defence Beethoven requires - that of fair analysis rather than deification through disproportional and misleading contrasts. Your answer is in itself a defence of Beethoven, in interpreting his qualities along your lines of thinking.
As to misinterpreting Bernstein's intentions - I do in fact say that I know what Bernstein is doing here. Did you miss that? He's trying to make a case about the power of Beethoven's form, and belittling the components of that form in order to make the end result seem all the more astonishing. But certainly you must disagree with the comment "When you look at [these aspects of his technique], there's nothing there." No, every component exemplifies a deep and rich talent informed by a culmination of culture and intellectual progress, as I show at the end of the video.
I don't have time to refute your points one-by-one (which by the way aren't that gentle - "underwhelmed" - really, is that what you say to a friend's face? What did I do to earn such casual disrespect and dismissal? Or the implication that I don't respect young composers' abilities to think for themselves?), but I think you make a subjective point about melodicity, in saying that it's defined by what's "tuneful." To my mind, that means only what you think it means. I back up my argument with melodic analysis - perhaps you can argue yours with the same degree of care. What's more, I teach orchestration for a living, coaching professional orchestrators for their premieres and film scoring work. My examples of analysis of orchestration are plentiful on my channel, and I saw no point in turning half this video into yet another orchestration lesson. But in fact, perhaps you missed that Bernstein's chief gripe was against Beethoven's balance problems. I addressed that point and moved on.
Finally, though I do take responsibility for the ongoing education of thousands of composers here on the internet, I'm certainly no professor. Please, call me Thomas. :)
Simply put, the most informative and worthwhile You Tube video I have ever seen. It is spot-on in every respect. It places the appraisal of mankind's perhaps greatest artistic achievement (Beethoven's music) in the right context with a perfect balance of attention to detail and a comprehensive understanding of the subject matter. It succeeds because even though the motivation is a negative one (to help viewers evade any misleading understanding of the qualities of Beethoven's music) it offers a positive view of what makes Beethoven great - rather than merely pointing out the exaggerated nature of Bernstein's specific comments.
Gotta see what Bernstein means by that. I agree with him to a large extent, and it doesn't change the fact that Beethoven is my favorite composer of all time.
Actually it makes me love him even more...
Bernstein doesn't try to discredit Beethoven at all. In fact he only highlights why he is such a genius.
Beethoven doesn't try to be good, in fact to a large extent, he is a destroyer of music (at least of his time).
When you think about it, the 9th or the Grobe Fugue are monstrosities (or deformities at least) and were widely considered as such at the time.
He doesn't try to make nice music. He just follows his path, his necessities.
There is the gap that separates good musicians from geniuses, and the reason why we send Beethoven's music out in space and everybody forgot the "good" musicians of his time.
Nowhere do I say that Bernstein was actively discrediting Beethoven. That's not my point at all. My point is that he's framing the right argument in the wrong way - making a greater point about form while sacrificing Beethoven's mastery of craft on its altar. In fact, Beethoven was not only the supreme master of the Classical form, but he was also one of the greatest craft composers of all time. It doesn't make any sense to diminish the importance of the latter to prove the former.
DrFaustus Not that i want to be pedantic or something, but as a German (not native) speaker i just can't do anything about that one single mistake. It's Große Fuge, not Grobe fuge. German ß is just a second way to write ss, which is exact as an English s. You could writre just Grosse fuge or something like this
DrFaustus But i agree on your point
I think Bernstein is simply trying to show off to the ruggedly handsome Schell who he is clearly infatuated with. In the end of the clip he is also pointing out that he thinks Beethoven is the greatest composer.
I absolutely agree with you. You must always consider the context when evaluating someone's comments. I think that Bernstein was speaking extemporaneously and just went a bit hyperbolic in his comments to Schell. He was trying to say something to the effect that Beethoven's use of form is so extraordinary that his works are greater than the sum of their parts. And, Bernstein gets a bit carried away. Oops, even my hero might not be perfect at all times? Yeah.
But Bernstein does not fail to mention what it is that truly distinguishes Beethoven -- that incredible inevitability of his writing such that you are transported from beginning to end without ever feeling lost along the way.
I learned a few things from your video, too. Like why the trumpets sometimes stick out a bit -- hmm, not so much when played on the the instruments of his day!
Wow, this video was spectacular! I'm so glad I came across it.
I would just like to point out, however, that in my case (although I'll bow to your experience as a teacher), I came across a similar Bernstein talk in Omnibus, about Beethoven's 5th symphony specifically, but also with references elsewhere, and despite hearing what he said about Beethoven's lack in all these areas (and Beethoven being one of my favourite composers), I was still very interested in learning as much as I can.
Thanks for this very, very interesting video. I think Bernstein himself would cringe at seeing that interview. A little wine, a close colleague, a contentious provocative subject......... can equal years of regrets. But, music is replete with contention and no giant is without critics. Anyway, thanks again. I really enjoyed this video.
Ron
@stevemartinalmonds Manual of Harmony by E.F. Richter, 1867; A Treatise on Harmony by J. Humfrey Anger, 1905; Harmonielehre by Arnold Schönberg, 1922; Modern Harmony in its Theory and Practice by Arthur Foote and Walter B. Spalding, 1905; Applied Harmony by Carolyn A. Alchin, 1935; Gründliche Anweisung zur Composition by Johann Georg Albrechtsberger, 1790; Counterpoint, Strict and Free by Ebenezer Prout, 1890; The Homophonic Forms of Music Composition by Percy Goetschius, 1898; and several more.
Who cares what he said? Maybe he was in a mood. Still, you made a great video.
Fabulous video - really informative discussion of two of my favourite composers. However, come on! - the whole "I get no kind of satisfaction over correcting Bernstein's statements" was very tongue-in-cheek :-) Really enjoyable stuff.
Well, my whole point was that music students and less informed entry-level music lovers would take Bernstein's critique verbatim - and didn't you get that? Of course I understand that Bernstein is just spouting off, and in fact I mention that early on.
As to not really having to defend Beethoven - don't kid yourself. People are constantly making misinformed decisions about taste, and spouting off exaggeration as historical fact all the time. I'm just trying to save them some embarrassment.
+OrchestrationOnline Thank you 1000x for this great video! I loved it. I myself thought that what Bernstein was saying in that video was unfair, one-sided, sometimes flat out incorrect, and definitely meant only to serve his final "mystical" point about the "inevitability" of LvB's music, which one can agree with or not, but it surely doesn't justify the nonsense he talks before it.
(One tiny detail though: Could you correct the wrong opus no. of the "Moonlight" Sonata? I saw that you wrote Op. 28/2 twice, instead of Op. 27/2.)
Thanks again and greetings from Warsaw :)
Exactly. Bernstein uses an experiment by Beethoven (S.7 M.2) to try to say all his music sounds like that. It would be the same as basing your entire judgement on the melodicity of Lennon and McCartney based on just the song "Julia," which was an experiment in how long of a melody you could make from one note.
No no no, Gabe, no offense taken, please don't worry about that. This video is put out there in the spirit of reasoned debate, so I was just answering in that context. I've had a couple of other comments on other videos recently that were unnecessarily disputatious, so I was just trying to keep the debate on track. But I didn't find anything derogatory. I really do want posts that intelligently debate the points in the video, so please continue. Your remarks are interesting.
Omg the Beethoven Ragtime! I’ve never heard of that before
@sAmfRancIs94 Opening: Coriolanus Overture. 5:34: Symphony No. 7, Movt. 4.