Where's the consent in the movies?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- CONTENT WARNING: Discussion of dubious and hazy consent, and minor references to sexual assault (this is not the focus of the video but it does come up)
Taking a look at the lack of movies that bother depicting consent. Because for all of the love scenes shown in films from the earliest days of the medium, very rare is the instance where the characters truly confirm that they're both ok with what's about to happen. Does this matter? And have any films done it right?
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Writers: "Consent isn't sexy"
If you can't make someone whispering "You want it? You want me to [ET CETERA]?" sexy, hire better actors
Right??? I think anyone can agree that a sexual partner telling you what they want to do to you is incredibly arousing. Of course, it also carries the very important step of inviting the option to consent or refuse at the same time, and nothing is lost.
The problem is, I think, that Writers are always looking for ways to be clever, just firsthand experience, and that leads to cases like James Bond films, when he tries to seduce women in ways that kind of leave it open to interpretation whether or not it’s consensual.
Anyone that says "consent isn't sexy" or "consent kills the mood" is also a straight up sex criminal
They're just saying "I really hate knowing that my partner actually wants to fuck"
Exactly, imagining a sexy character whispering that is hot 🥵
+++
In terms of a couple's first kiss, they are trying to create this feeling of unspoken feelings flooding out for the first time.
Very loosely connected to the topic, consensual non-consent is a very popular and often very badly written trope in BL manga which gives the whole genre a certain... reputation.
Also on the anime front, I pretty much hate the tsundere trope because it's a 2-in-1 -- perpetuating the assumption that "no means yes" with an unhealthy dose of partner abuse (not that any dose of it can be healthy). Which is different from enemies to lovers. I actually like the enemies to lovers trope, at least in fanfiction, but not _that_ kind. It's one thing when characters go from a massive mutual misunderstanding to gradually coming to know each other and getting some character development of their own in the process, and another thing entirely when it's what's described in the video.
Yeah... To me, tsunderes can make for characters who tug at your heartstrings with ease if done right, but more often than not, we get lazy examples of the trope who cross the line into outright abuse, never apologize for crossing that line, and don't even get the chance to affirm consent if their partner chooses them, and on top of that, WHY on earth would their partner go for such an abusive asshole with no redeeming qualities besides looks?
Imagine for a moment, a tsundere who never crosses the line into verbal or physical abuse, or apologizes if they do. A Tsundere who has redeeming qualities as a human being, and does things that would make the audience understand why the hero would love them. Perhaps most importantly, A tsundere who affirms consent in an emotionally loaded moment after letting their partner know how they really feel about them.
Now, imagine if all those qualities were the norm for the tsundere trope.
@@Percival917 Chiaki from Nodame Cantabile? :) Granted, I watched Nodame long ago and don't remember much, and Chiaki wasn't a tsundere from the start.
I find asking for consent to be a very natural part of sex for me. It just comes as part of sexy conversation. I don't even really notice that I'm asking her when I want/want to do something else because I like hearing her say yes or I like when she suggests something else.
If I'm not going to be asking her every time I want to do something different I will always have asked if it's okay for me to do whatever I want or she'll have told me that that's what she wants. And we would never indroduce anything new to the consentual non consent part. It will always be stuff that we both already are comfortable with.
Either way I feel like having consent talk adds to the experience and it definitely makes it feel more loving and secure and satisfying.
Someone forgot to tell Morticia and Gomez that checking for consent isn't sexy
I remember a conversation I had with a masc partner about tickling, who wondered why "women say 'stop' a couple of times with a smile or a laugh but then the third time they say it real sharply." I had to explain that it's because the first 2 times they're giving the benefit of the doubt in a friendly way to let you save face and keep the mood light, but because you didn't listen to them and kept going, they had to put their foot down. If you'd backed off the first time, everything would have been golden.
Thankfully I saw realisation dawn across their face.
And the necessity of 'keeping the mood light'....... 😞
This was something my ex didn’t understand.
I hate nonconsensual tickling as well as picking people up, it's such a weird violation of space and when I was younger it was super normalized for boys to do this to girls whenever they wanted. I would always stare blankly and not react when anyone tried to do that sht to me, only thing that worked since ignoring "no"s is the whole point of the game
Love Actually features many, many problematic elements, but the relationship it depicts between John and Judy very healthily models consent. Despite the fact that the two of them are doing sex scenes for a film production, John never assumes that he is entitled to Judy's body. He turns away when she's getting undressed, and even after he's told what to do to Judy by the production assistant, he's constantly checking in with her to make sure that she's okay with what's going on.
Thank you for putting that out there! I love their dynamic.
"Asking kills the mood. It isn't romantic." Well do you know what absolutely kills the mood and its not romantic? Forcing someone.
As a rape survivor, it's super refreshing to see something like Frozen where someone asks before going in for the kiss. I'll never understand people who think consent isn't sexy. For me, there's literally nothing hotter in a sexual or romantic context than having someone confirm "hell yeah, I'm into this" especially as someone who's insecure, but especially as someone whose consent wasn't sought (in multiple relationships, because being aceflux people assume if you say yes once, that always applies, which is deeply fucked) Consent is sexy, and if anyone disagrees they pretty much guarantee my consent is revoked :P
One good example of consent being sexy or even romantic, is in Critical Role Campaign 2.
Spoilers ahead:
Fjord asked Jester if he could kiss her (two characters played by an irl married couple), and Yasha telling Beau she'd like to kiss her, to which Beau's enthusiastically wishes she would and I think just go in for the kiss. (While not a direct form of consent, still feel like it fits).
Maybe the people who wrote this are creeps.
@@pandemoniumeris agreed, i loved thse scenes
@kshamwhizzle I had a moment of extreme sadness the first time a sweet guy actually checked in with me about consent... IMO the sadness is more about realizing 'oh what happened previously was kinda fucked up' than the current, GOOD person doing something to break the mood. I mean I must say, I LOVE the Titanic example as 'what is GOOD CONSENT practice '!
Also adding to being ace, one can actually feel sexual attraction to someone, it's just on a rare basis or under specific circumstances. Asexuality is a spectrum and just because someone feels something for a person but for nothing while looking on people who are considered "sexy".
I feel like aces who actually feel sexual attraction but on a low basis aren't taken seriously.
Thank you for sharing your experience and I absolutely agree with your point with consent being attractive. This should be normalised instead of just a man forcingly kissing a woman.
There was a halirious consent scene in a anime I like called Re:Zero (specifically season 2). The male lead confesses his love, then tells her he's gonna kiss her, and then tells her to dodge if she doesn't want to (which made me roar with laughter). If he did it quickly before she could have time react, the scene could have been dubious, but he slowly moves his head towards her, giving her time and judging her reaction to his proposal and then he kisses her. Nicely done scene, and important, and important scene since Re:Zero is in a genre of media typically aimed at young men.
One of my favourite scenes that clearly removes ambiguity is on Sex Education.
After a party Otis wakes up with Ruby and realises he's had sex but doesn't recall the event itself. Ruby tells him later, "You weren't great, but you weren't terrible, you kept asking me if I was okay." When Otis replies that it's "good to check-in," Ruby lets him know "it was every 10 seconds. Thank you for checking. A lot of guys don't."
This is one of the reasons I love the shadow and bone series on Netflix, when the dark one and Alina are kissing, after she initiated, and they both seem to want to take the next step, he still just checks if it's okay, if she wants it before continuing. And he is the villain of the story. Consent should be the norm and not the exception.
One of my favorite depictions of romance in a movie is the subplot in Hidden Figures:
1) It starts with Jim accidentally insulting Katherine, he immediately realizes he's offended her and gives her some space, then it doesn't move forward until he has truly apologized for the way he spoke
2) Every step of the relationship involves him asking her for permission. Sometimes playful, sometimes serious. Even holding hands he holds his hand out and lets her decide if she wants to reciprocate.
The whole relationship is depicted as healthy and mutually respectful and still maintains its romantic qualities perfectly!
OMG, thank you for bringing up "playing hard to get." As an Aro-Ace woman I'm just genuinely not interested in being other than friends with people. But all too often I've found that the "I'm not interested" signals I send get misinterpreted by guys who think girls always play hard to get. It's infuriating that no matter how many I told some dudes I wasn't interested, they took it as "keep trying." Just, ugh... 1) I can't think of any girl I've ever met who actively played hard to get. 2) If guys respect boundaries, eventually they'll find a girl who doesn't play games with them like that. Because basic respect and decency count for a lot. And I don't mean the 'nice guy' interpretation of basic decency either.
If the girl tells you she's not interested, then believe her. Either she'll learn to stop playing games or she'll be happy you respected her boundaries. Either way is a net win for you.
I think asking, "Do you want to (whatever)?" in a husky, low voice full of desire, is about the sexiest thing a person could do on-screen! Maybe the problem isn't so much lack of interest in depicting consent, as it is lack of acting and directing ability to convey that dialogue in a sexy way….
Another part of consent (which was in the Titanic scene) was people actually expressing what they wanted. There is the fantasy (which is easier to show in books) that your partner knows you so well that you don't have to say what you want, because they already know, and they care for you so much that you get what you want. However, on screen that looks like someone not knowing what they want, and the partner not caring enough to ask.
Perhaps "consent" is handled so badly, if at all, is because it's liberated sex without liberating women.
I know you mentioned it being present in a lot of smaller streaming service shows, but I 1000% want to mention ‘Heartstopper’ where the first kiss the two main characters share is preceded with a lot of clarifying and emotionally-charged dialogue that is something I would have really liked with my own introduction to intimacy. While I wouldn’t say it’s ‘sexy’ (they’re high school kids so it’s be very odd to describe it that way) it’s definitely romantic and taken very seriously.
i read those scenes the opposite way, i thought those kisses came out of nowhere
This lack of consent is also a really bad side effect of "pre-determining" the main character's love interest.
Yeah, I bring that up. It’s an easy mistake for creators to make when they already know it’ll all work out by the end.
As my partner just said, "if you don't have time in your film to show consent, you don't have time for a sex scene". If you can't have one person say hornily "make love to me?" and the other respond in the affirmative without killing the mood, then you're a shit writer.
Great video! I also loved the example of Titanic, because, you're right I never even clocked that until you mentioned it. Circling around back to the "aggressive male", I think that depiction can trace some of its origins back to the idea that women don't like sex, that sex is a duty for them to perform within marriages, and as such a man must be aggressive because he is the only one with needs that have to be met. 🙄 It kinda amazing how much stuff we just take for granted in our media (and therefore society) that has some pretty shady origins or were basically just propaganda (looking at the Hays code here) to push a specific set of morals on the on the greater population.
Yes and there is still this pervasive idea that women don’t like sex, as evidenced by a few years ago when celebrities (I think Alyssa Milano was one) were encouraging women to withhold sex in their relationships as a protest. Lots of women pushed back against this, like why would we punish ourselves??
It’s scary how often things that would not be ok in the real world are normalised in film and tv, and the message that sends to young people.
Very true. It's how i as a kid got the idea that i needed romantic relationships to survive. That did not go well!
And when people grow up on these shows and movies, then things that should not be okay become accepted. It's horrible how people don't accept the power media has on culture.
Yeah this can get someone raped and get someone thrown in jail for it for thinking it's ok or what people want. 🤦🏻♀️
The sad thing is I've seen the sex scene in Titanic described more than once as "Jack seduces Rose in the back seat of a car" and completely ignoring the agency it gave her. Which shows that a key problem here is people thinking of sex as something that men do to women and not even recognizing consent when they see it!
This is so odd, because especially in this movie, it's so obvious that Rose is the instigator.
As a freelance editor, I often point out toxic behaviour and lack of consent in scenes to my customers (of every gender). "That's practically r***, are you sure you want your love interest depict like that?" Most of them are shocked about themselves and their narrowed view of "romantic". "I didn't mean it that way!" It got worse after Twilight, in my experience, and I will not stand for it. There are some ethical standards I won't back off from even when I lose a customer over this. But most of them just don't think about it till the consequences is pointed out to them.
I once got pissy complaints from a client when I pointed out to him that his hero had forced himself on his significant other. They pay for the service, then complain when the editor has something to say.
That's wild, I always wonder whether the writers could really be that clueless, but I guess yeah. Too bad all editors aren't like you, but thank you for your service 🙏
@@gh0st_b0yfriend It's an editor's job to be pedantic. I like it, but some authors are waaaay too close to their work and take criticism personally.
Not a movie, but Monica and Chandler were great at consent. It's really odd to me that the same writers who got Ross and Rachel so horribly wrong could also write the Monica and Chandler romance.
ETA: A bit off topic, but the other romcom trope that bugs TF out of me is the whole men and women can't be friends thing. As a woman who works in a male dominated industry I have a lot of guy friends. And a long history of losing said guy friends when their girlfriends can't handle them being friends with a women because they've watched too many of these damn romcoms
Not entirely off topic, as Phoebe and Joey were the pairing that proved men and women can just be friends even if they admit the other person is attractive. It's weird when I hear or read people saying they should have got together as a couple when really I took the group to be Monica and Chandler as the healthy well adjusted couple (had their flaws sure but they worked on them), Ross and Rachel being the "toxic on and off will they or won't they" couple while Joey and Phoebe were men and women being best friends goals.
Council of Geeks: I would like to send you on a strange journey.
Me: You have my consent.
Me, a Shin Megami Tensei fan: You had me at "Strange Journey."
_Me, ace/demi, realising I'm the 70th like..._
Thank you for another great video! It’s a problem on several different levels if people don’t realize that they can talk, joke, and flirt during sex, and that asking for consent throughout can be worked into this dynamic. It can be both fun & sexy and it seems like it really wouldn’t be hard for writers to write these kinds of scenes. They’re just choosing not to.
I do wonder sometimes if the Hollywood habit of no dialogue in love scenes (and most exceptions being for the sake of humor) has instilled an idea that people aren’t meant to talk or that talking is inherently dirty (since it usually happens most in porn).
You know, after watching this, I'd love to hear more analysis on how media has made a staple of boys/men pestering their love interest until she gives, and even framing it as romantic. I don't remember right now if a video on the topic has already been made, but it's such a prominent thing in almost all genres, and such a classic thing too, going as far as centuries ago with all those heroic tales of men risking their lives to gain the favor/love of a woman.
I have a feeling that this topic was raised in one of the Pop Culture Detective videos, but I'm not sure if I remember correctly. Anyway, you can check out his vides, he presents good analysis of harmful tropes in movies
I kind of lost my cool a bit dealing with this issue when I did a revisit of Dead Poet’s Society a while back. ruclips.net/video/3lNh3guA9fY/видео.html
Kat pointed out Pop Culture Detective, they have made some really amazing videos on masculinity in media
ruclips.net/user/PopCultureDetectivevideos
whilst I'm not claiming expertise in this (nor any vested interest in women for that matter) - a lot of it is surely due to media higher-ups being such male-dominated professions. There's absolutely a culture there, and it does run deep, tying into the whole 'women as trophies' which, yeah, sadly is a whole thing even now.
Fun subversion coming to mind at the moment - the second Suicide Squad film. The boys in the crew all make a big plan to rescue Harley from a villain, but by the time they get to the location, she's already shot him dead and made her own way out. She's all "aw that was kinda sweet I guess but yah no I'm good"
@@katkameneva4925 Yes! I was coming here to recommend Pop Culture Detective.
The example that springs to mind for me is the scene in Jaws, when Brody's wife asks, "Do you wanna get drunk and fool around?" I think that's a great scene in that it establishes the boundaries of what happens later after they are intoxicated; it's the wife asking; and it shows asking for consent in an established marital relationship...also it's very sexy and he quickly says yes.
Really? I always thought it was more like a scene like he has nothing better to do or something along that line.
Dub-con is one of my favorite theoretical kinks, and I adore when non-con is done well (i.e. treated seriously and the impact and consequences are dealt with the weight they necessitate), but hollywood romcoms genuinely disgust me for this reason. I agree with all your points and would like to add that making it the standard is actively harmful and perpetrates unhealthy relationships. Impressionable teenagers get ideas - boys basically bully girls into dating them, and girls think it's how it's supposed to be. The saddest part is that the est and sexiest kink negotiations and consent depictions I can cite from fanfiction. Which, you know, is historically by large written by marginalized women who know what they want although the whole world is keen on telling them they're wrong. But that's a completely different can of worms.
Yeah, most of the works that delve the most into these things properly are fan works… because the original works don’t do it well.
I really like the song "Body Talks" from The Struts for their inclusion of consent in their lyrics. So at first, it seems like your typical : "I see that you want me" song. And there is a bit of this "I read the signs from your head to your toes" in there, but first off, there is concern for the pleasure of the potential partner as the singer demands : "Say what you want, say what you like", and "I need to know what you need". And then the singer says : "If its my imagination, stop me if I'm wrong", clearly saying that if he is misreading the signs and their potential partner isn't into it, he's gonna stop. And I really like that I can see the scene playing in my head. At this party or at this bar or whatever, this first person approaches another person they find attractive and they think it is reciprocated. They start flirting and then, to make sure the other person is really into it too, they tell them they'll stop if they're not. And that's great! And it's still a great song about flirting and physical attraction, but it is implied that the song would stop if it wasn't ok, and that's even better.
I’m quite fond of that song. The Green Mountain Cabaret has a great burlesque number to it.
"Many men used to argue that using a condom isn't romantic".
Many men stil think like that!!!
Very good video, Vera. 😘😘😘😘
Consent is almost never discussed in public or media. “No means no “ is a lousy framework. All people starting in childhood should be taught bodily autonomy. No you don’t “owe “ ANYONE physical contact or affection. That goes for your Grandma your boss or your spouse/partners. Consent needs to be active & engaged every time. Long overdue that media should reflect it. And physiological reactions are NOT consent. Fight me
It shouldn’t be “no means no,” it should be “only yes means yes.” Unless you’re given a specific “yes,” then don’t do anything.
@@Yickerd right Consent needs to be active or it’s not real or effective
@@emcrolls exactly. And even if the other person says yes, but doesn’t seem like they actually want, you shouldn’t do anything unless they start expressing enthusiasm.
So much this. Most of my extended family taught all their kids that they *had* to walk around and hug everyone goodbye after a family gathering, and while I was never made to do so, it makes me really uncomfortable when the kids in my family come to me for one because I know they're not doing it because they want to. It's extra screwed because if I try to tell them they don't have to if they don't want to, they get in trouble with their parents for not doing it. One of those kids, when they became an adult, did actually end up in jail for molesting their younger sisters and it makes me concerned for the other children in my family.
In Britain we literally have a video of it being compared to tea. “If someone is unconscious, they don’t want tea, and they can’t answer the question ‘do you want tea’, because they are unconscious.”
There's a scene in season 3 of Mad Men that depicted safe sex pretty well, especially for something set before the sexual revolution. Peggy hooks up with a stranger and stops making out to ask if the guy has any condoms. He doesn't, and he's willing to stop then and there; *she* is the one who suggests "there are other things we could do." It is depicted as an overall positive experience, showing that it's okay if things get a little awkward when asking about consent and/or protection, because it doesn't stop them from happily hooking up once they've established they're not going to do anything that requires a condom. It's especially great because the notion that things that require condoms aren't the be-all-end-all of physical intimacy needs to be depicted more. It was great to see this in a show that otherwise depicted a lot of dubious consent as part of the reality of its time period.
Honestly, this is why romantic comedies are way more problematic and harmful to society than the goriest horror or most violent action movie. Most movies are filled with unrealistic things, but for (hopefully) most of us, we'll never be a real life scenario from a horror or action movie. But romantic relationships are something that we WILL experience and try to navigate. And romantic movies that feature these tropes reinforce people's perceptions of how romance works. It's sort of like how people can watch porn and get an unrealistic perspective of sex, romantic comedies do the same thing about relationships.
Thank you so much for bringing up Titanic! Jack Dawson was really ahead of his time in terms of male leads vs. toxic masculinity. I also love that after she initially rejects him to stay with Cal he accepts that, even though he knows it won't make her happy, it's still her decision and he respects it. She's the one who later comes back to him and says she's changed her mind.
I was over the moon with that even at the end of frozen.
As for Titanic, anybody who doesn't understand how much hotter those scenes are because of the anticipation created by the consent conversations, doesn't have a brain.
I think the area of consent that I find problematic is the notion “males” are always ready for sex. You saw it a lot in British comedies from the 60’s and 70’s but it still comes up today, that a young man (usually legal age or implied to be) is seduced by an older person and just goes with it because young men are always horny in media. The implication that he was just assaulted is treated as a joke. It can’t be rape, because he’s clearly enjoying it, it doesn’t need to be consent because “that’s what all men want”. I even remember hearing the phrase “all his christmas came at once” to describe these scenes.
We hear a lot about how rape and non consensual sex is initiated by men against women, but it happens in real life and in media, where males are also not given the opportunity to consent. The assumption being, they don’t need to.
Now sometimes these scenes are intentionally meant to be depicted as “the man getting his own medicine”. I’ve seen numerous examples of revenge rapes against abusive males. But there are lots of other incidences where guys clearly aren’t into it, yet in the very next scene it cuts to them seeming to have “enjoyed” it, or being “comically” traumatised.
That always felt misjudged to me.
just think of desperate housewives :)
I agree, they will literally show a boy child being preyed on and molested by an older woman and expect the audience to cheer for him. They did this at the end of Booksmart 2020, I was shocked then that even in 2020 people still don't see it as horrific
And yes, the revenge rape scenes are also extremely off putting. There was one in the Lovecraft Country TV show, yet another fcked up think they expect audiences to cheer for when they see
Another issue with this is the definition of rape as a legal term in a lot of places. Basically words to the effect of "penis penetrates vagina" or at least contains a variation of the word "penetrate". Which discounts a lot of types of sexual assault as being rape. Especially for men. I know there have been pushes to change legislation that contains this phrasing over the years.
So recently the auction scene from the Addams Family movie was brought to my attention. Being in the middle of an auction aside (which, obviously, hopefully), Gomez and Morticia do a great job of checking in with each other as they get hot and bothered with each other by...bidding for charity.
Yes, it is just as hot and hilarious as it sounds.
Not only is it a great scene, but also it does an excellent job of combatting the notion that asking for consent grinds things to a halt and isn't sexy!
Mortica and Gomez are couple goals! Completely in love and devoted but also whole people. He has his train hobbies and she has her magic
Here's a link to the scene: ruclips.net/video/LyXbfGyM2IE/видео.html
I was a child when Revenge of the Nerds originally came out. When I saw it again as an adult I was shocked. I know exactly what scene you are talking about. I agree it is a serious problem.
I was already disinclined to watch it because movies about “the college experience” had me terrified of being hazed or pranked, which is its own consent issue. So finding out how the movie treats women hasn’t sold me on giving it a chance.
I thought a lot of that stuff was gross even as a child, but I never liked the movie to begin with. The one that changed for me as an adult was the whole Jake giving his drunk girlfriend to Farmer Ted at the end of 16 Candles.
@@christopherb501 Revenge of the Nerds: the first Incel movie
Over the past few years, I went out with a couple different guys. (And, to preface the rest of this, I'm on the Ace spectrum.) And at the end of the date, they leaned in, and I backed up a bit. And the response from them was, "That's perfectly fine. I'm okay waiting until you're comfortable."
And I have to say, that made them so much more attractive.
I think a good video game example is Life is Strange 2, where you can choose for the player character (Sean) to be romantic with a girl (Cassidy) and she asks if you're okay to continue every step along the way and you can always back out. It goes something like:
"Want to go swimming in the lake with me?"
"We'll have to take off our clothes, is that okay?"
"Do you want to kiss me?"
"Do you want to go back to my tent?"
"Do you want to come inside?"
"Are you okay with taking this further?"
Another medium where proper consent is actually pretty common in my experience is romantic and erotic webcomics.
"I would like... if I may..."
My Rocky Horror loving self instantly: "You may!"
I am all for seeing better consent in media! Give us more cute instances of Kristoff asking Anna in Frozen if he can kiss her! We love to see it!
There is new affirmative consent law & an ad campaign to go with it in NSW, Australia.
The ad campaign is called "That's How You Do it" & it uses real scenarios to show how easy affirmative consent is to do. I think we need affirmative consent laws everywhere & the NSW law can be the model
The point you made about how consent should be the standard and dubcon and noncon should be the exception is something I agree with whole heartedly. If people want to read/watch dubcon and noncon scenes then that should be something that they have to actively seek out. We should create a culture where you can only consume that kind of content while fully knowing and understanding that it is not conducive to real life kissing and sex etiquette, because the current state of media is far too blurred and it frustrates me to no end.
And then the writers of GoT and 50 Shades and so much more will have to either change their stories or be fully aware of the noncon/dubcon elements in their work and openly acknowledge them, rather than package those scenes up as how kissing/sexual acts actually work. If dubcon or noncon is your kink, that's fine, but your kink is not everyone's kink and thus it should not be forced onto everyone else with zero warning.
What I hate about movie franchises where romance is concerned is where in the sequel the romance has fallen apart so there can be sexual tension in the new story. It happens way too often.
Oh my goodness I HATE that. Because so many writers don’t know how to write healthy relationships so they have to break up a couple off screen to do it all again.
@@CouncilofGeeks Thank Goodness for Gomez and Morticia
One of the sexiest moments ever, was with a former boyfriend who while we were talking, inches away from one another he breathed out "can I kiss you" and every other act after that, he would look me deep in my eyes for confirmation that he could proceed. He established a trust with me so deep that he could have done ANYTHING to me. It's the "As you wish" of the Princess Bride. Trust and respect can bring kink to a whole other level.
I am a bit iffy with the whole main character was okay with it because we hear her thoughts. Consent needs to be explicitly communicated. What we (the reader) have is the man assuming that she was willing and he just so happened to be right.
I have to agree with this. While I totally understand that it does help to know how she is perceiving the situation and her thought process on the matter, that leaves the attacking man off the hook. He's forcing himself onto someone who may be into it later on, but that's not something he actively cared about. He could be doing it thinking/hoping she will like it, but that's a secondary concern to his own desires, and no amount of exploration of the woman's mind that moment is going to change that.
I don’t disagree, but I was using that to illustrate how things can play differently in other mediums on the issue overall.
One of the best consent scenes I've seen in a video game would be FemShep x Garrus from Mass Effect 2. In a cutscreen they're discussing sleeping together and Garrus seems a little too nervous. Shepard recognizes this and gives him an out. Absolutely loved to see this in a major franchise.
22:22 I was not aware that people used to argue that using a condom isn't romantic, good info to know. I also agree that we don't depict safe sex enough in media or show the potential consequences of not practicing safe sex unless it's important for the plot or something.
People talk a lot about the problems of the original US Queer as Folk (since we're getting a reboot soon), but one thing that they showed consistently in a positive way was safe sex and how to incorporate it into intimacy- making the act of protecting yourself and your partner a sexy thing (and how the characters negatively viewed NOT wearing a condom)- it's one of the first shows I can recall making it an important part of the conversation and foreplay. I hope we get to a point where consent is treated the same way.
Yeah the only instance I've seen of unsafe sex in a show/film etc having potential bad consequences was in Daria Cohen's Vampair series in the episode based on Voltaire's Zombie Prostitute song (the vampire Duke has s3x with a zombie and gets an undead STD)
I feel like children’s media has this problem as well with kissing.
Avatar/LOK are literally my two favorite shows but characters kiss other characters without their consent multiple times. I didn’t really have a problem with it until I got older.
While this may not seem like a big deal at first glance-and consent regarding kissing is a bit complicated to discuss, it does give off the implication that you should “just go for it” when you want to kiss someone.
Kissing is often a person’s (particularly a child’s) first real image of romantic intimacy and should be treated with a lot more care than it actually is.
Yeah many “first kisses” are basically one person (usually a boy) lunging their face at somebody else, and it’s depicted as endearing.
I honestly don't even remember any other kiss except for Aang&Katara before the invasion and in Ember Island Players where Aang kisses her and she pushes him back and tells him that's not okay. Also the time where Sokka tries to save Suki and almost kisses her and she puts him in a headlock. And Makorrasami is just deleted from my memory. I think Bolin kisses Opal when her parents are imprisoned and she freaks out at him.
I really liked how Heartstopper approached consent for a young audience.
@@carpevinum8645 me too
@@ChantelCarter-cc7cu If a kid grows up with these types of movies and nobody tells him it's wrong, how is he supposed to know it's wrong. If nobody tells you what you're doing is wrong you can't know that.
I hate how linked sex and romance are. Sometimes it feels like they are used synonymously. One explicit place this has bothered me is Star Trek, they say “romantic relations”, or whatever, when they mean sexual. I remember when one of Dr Phlox’s wives was on the show. All that was happening was that she was trying to “bone-down” but they kept bringing up the word romance. And it feels kinda the same here. We are not talking about romance, although consent is important there also, we are talking about sex. I don’t have more elegant words for it. I really believe that this is one of the reasons “the youth”, as they are depicted in media, seem to think they are owed sex or that sex is just gonna happen before at least the fourth date. Although I have no experience, I know for a fact it would take multiple dates for me to start kissing, let alone have sex.
I read Axiom's End and Truth of the Divine not long ago and the sentence "Do you consent?" appears in a few scenes. None of those scenes are sexual, but taking the time to show that the characters ask for permission before touching each other only improves the story imo. It lets us see how their relationship evolves. They also ask it less and less as they learn what the other likes and tolerates, but it doesn't completely stop.
Also gonna take me and my partner as an example: we've been together for 11 years and we still ask each other for consent every time we are intimate, even in the middle of it. It's just part of our habits now, it would feel less sexy to just jump into action without making sure that we're both in the mood.
In short, if someone thinks that asking for consent is unsexy, they're just not used to seeing and/or doing it. With the right persons/examples it's very easy to learn.
Also, love the Steven Universe mention! It's my favourite show, and one of my favourite stories ever.
As I always say, nothing is sexier than consent.
Rewatching some romcoms, my husband and I have wondered how things were ever okay. Like Daniel fondling Bridget in the elevator? Farmer Ted and Caroline in 16 candles? 😡
I had a feeling you'd talk about Titanic when referencing good depictions of consent. I always thought the line "put your hands on me, Jack" was very romantic because it depicted Rose's longing for him. And I always loved the drawing scene. It managed to be sensual and sexy without being tawdry.
It's a really important topic, thank you for talking about it. Although I would like to say, that describing situations as being "grey area" is often a way to avoid saying that what happened (irl or in media) was a r*pe / sexual assault, etc. Because we think that as long as somebody don't actively say no and go away, then it's fine, or ""ambiguous"". But it doesn't work like that. If the person didn't explicitely and enthousiastically consented, then it's not okay ! And sure, sometimes, it turns out the other person wanted it too, but how can you be sure of that if there's no explicit consent ? What if they didn't want to and you misinterpreted ? And that's in the best case scenarios, because often times it's not a question of misunderstanding "signs", it's knowing it's not ok and carrying on or not caring about the other person's feelings at all. And that concept of "grey area" is what's used against r*pe survivors in actual trials. Arguments like "they didn't say no" or "they could have gone away" (even if they couldn't) or things like that, take away the responsability of the agressor and put it on the victim.
thank you for this.
I mean, as a kinkster, we frequently literally sit down and outline exactly what's expected to happen and one another's boundaries. The vanillas are problematic.
Exactly Define boundaries & intent. Then do the things (scene) . Then you debrief. It’s not as complex as it’s made to seem.
I think sometimes it's just done for economy, as you said, cutting from the kiss to the bed or not showing the condom part. I think in those cases it's a given that there is consent, we understand it as a narrative trope. Then again, I did suffer sexual abuse in a couple of moments in my life where there was certainly no consent on my part and some of the "grey area" parts can be a bit triggering, like the whole thing you said from Game of Thrones. I also find it in terrible taste when men are raped for laughs, like it happened in Super (which I like, except for that part, and it's very uncomfourtable, which is why I never watched it a second time).
A good example of clear consent? To be quite frank, I can't think of many. I like your Rose and Jack example, I would say... Anomalisa has a lovely sex scene. I don't exactly recall it with detail, but I remember how natural and wholesome it felt. Comforting and human.
I’ve been working with kids (girls, mostly. They’re figure skaters. Not a lotta guys in figure skating) for over a decade now, and I find their perspectives on the movies and shows that I grew-up on to be… interesting? Enlightening? 🧐
Like, *Ghostbusters* for example? Their only real comment was, “Why is *everyone* smoking?” 😝
But their attitude towards Harrison Ford, in particular, was reeaalllly eye-opening. Simply put, they find Ford “creepy” because so many of his characters (Solo… Jones… Deckard…) are all, to use their phrase, “very rape-y.” 😬
And, honestly, I now can’t *unsee* that… 😳
One scene where consent is important is in the first Austin Powers. Vanessa is drunk and comes on to Austin. Though he's been unambiguously trying to get her to sleep with him the whole time before this, he turns her down, precisely because she's drunk. Even the James Bond/Adam Adamant parody plucked from the swinging 60s knows that it wouldn't be right if her judgment is impaired.
Especially impressive since it was made in the nineties and sex with someone whose drunk wasn't taken as seriously back then.
Personally, I have never felt attracted to a person I dislike. This is such a weird trope.
I've never disagreed with you more than in one point in this film "....and Kate Winslet was Gorgeous in the late 90s" was Gorgeous? WAS? She's still Gorgeous. Agree with you on the other 99% of this video though so still thumbs up
Appreciate this. It’s part of my consent awareness playlist lineup. One suggestion to consider for expounding upon is “coercive” consent. Great work!
Oh, Vera, you might never know how that opening affected me.
I liked the way Sex Education handled Otis losing his virginity with Ruby. We didn't see it in real time for story reasons. They were at a party and Otis was very drunk and they cut to the morning after with Otis in bed with Ruby unable to remember doing the deed. He worries that he might have taken advantage of Ruby, but she assures him that he asked for consent at EVERY step along the way (which she seemed to have found slightly annoying but considerate compared to her previous partners). The storyline continues with them being unsure whether they used a condom and unable to find a discarded condom, so Otis accompanies Ruby to the pharmacy so she can get the morning after pill. The story manages to convey important messages about sex while drunk, consent, and birth control, all while being highly entertaining.
I liked how they modelled consent in Heartstopper.
*Spoilers*
Especially the bit at the end where they make up at sports day. In other media nick would have run up and kissed Charlie in front of everyone. Instead they go somewhere private, clear the air, establish that they are on the same page and then kiss.
A surprising example (I realise this is not across the board with these films but hear me out) is in the original Austin Powers, where he declines sex with Vanessa as it's not right because she's drunk.
I love that moment. It's impressive because 1; he's from the sixties
2: it's made in the nineties when sex with a drunk person wasn't taken as serious and 3: he's a character shown to put sex above everything
There are infinite ways to make consent sexy. One of my favorites is threatening to stop (in a playful way). Even constant check-ins can be sexy, I've written that with no issue at all. Even a simple "yeah?" "yeah" can be hot. Another important thing I think should be featured more is a character saying no and having that be respected by the other. More of that, please!
"I would like... if I may..."
I immediately shouted, "You may!" and then realized what a perfect opening that was for a video about consent.
A great consent scene in The Good Place is between Chidi and Simone in Season 3
CHIDI: Also, I wanted to kiss you last night, but I chickened out, so I'm going to kiss you now.
SIMONE: Good, yes. I want that, please.
:kiss happens:
"Not quite force himself" no no, Bladerunner is rape in every sense of the word, he is being violent with her, violently slams the door when she wants to ESCAPE HIM, holds her forcefully and demands her to say she wants to kiss. It's disgusting, this is rape.
The Harrison Ford threesome of Bladerunner, Star Wars and Indiana Jones all show him as a predator and are deeeeply problematic. Han kisses Leia when she tells him no, Indiana same. Even WORSE with Indy as he sleeps with Marion when she's underage and he is her father's assistant. And when they meet again as adults he GASLIGHTS HER by saying "you knew what you were doing" after she tells him she was a child. Indy is a literal statutory rapist
I was almost WORSE as Lucas and Spielberg wanted to make her 15, as (and I quote) "Fifteen is right on the edge. I know it's an outrageous idea, but it is interesting. Once she's sixteen or seventeen it's not interesting anymore" ("not interesting any more" wtf)
And somehow Bladerunner is even worse.
It sucks how these three movies represent what generations of men strive to be and believe how they should act. The nostalgia blinds everyone.
I have real trouble with star wars, cyberpunk and adventure movies because of Harrison Ford. And apparently he wasn't much better irl. He was 15 years older than Carrie Fisher during their affair and she is on record saying he abused this power over her.
Apologies for the rant, this movie is quite triggering. You have done a much better job at pointing out how it's problematic than most people but I feel you still underrepresented how bad it is.
There's a great video by Pop Culture Detective looking specifically at these three Harrison Ford films and how the romance in them is predatory.
Agreed that Bladerunner is absolutely rape, and also I've never seen any of the Indiana Jones movies but that's a massive yikes.
@@livjones2917 EVERYONE should be shown that video. Watching it was like a cultural train slammed into me. It made me realize how deep toxic masculinity goes. Yes, it's a great video that more people need to watch. And the rest of their videos too, they really focus on masculinity in media which is something people ignore. Like the rape of men for laughs video. It's unnerving when you realize it's not just a few movies, it's a pattern in our society.
That scene from Empire Strikes Back deeply disturbed me as a kid. Horribly, my cultural training taught me to read it "Leia's weak" rather than "Han is a dick." It took me many years to mentally get that sorted out. However, my hat goes off to Carrie Fisher that that scene didn't assassinate the character of Leia. In the scenes following that scene, her every subtle movement, every delivery of every line is such a pitch perfect depiction of a person quietly processing the shaming and humiliation (and her own feelings for Han, which are real) until she works it through and rapidly builds herself back up to badass by Cloud City. And I do think Fisher gets all the credit. The script allows that reading but certainly doesn't push it. The writer, the director may not have seen what was going on, but Fisher saw it perfectly. That's my take.
Spot on breakdown and analysis of a problematic topic. Enjoyed this a lot.
People have some pretty messed up ideas about consent. I’ve heard women say they won’t date a guy that asks if it’s ok to kiss them. Because a man respecting you isn’t sexy but forcing himself on you is real turn on. So gross. 🤦♀️
Didn't expect Titanic to be the positive example. It's especially amazing how the phrase became a meme and is referenced so frequently!
To be fair, the only James Cameron movies I know are Titanic and Avatar (and I’m not sure if I’ve ever actually really seen Titanic, at least remember it), but just off those it seems he knows how to write consent. In Avatar Jake says “But this woman must choose me also.”
@@fightingfaerie Oh, that's nice, didn't realise that either!
I think Heartstopper does consent very well, specially in the last two novels where Nick and Charlie are starting to get more intimate. Every time they do, they are constantly checking if the other is OK with the advances, and if there are not ready, they stop. That is consent and I'm actually pretty excited to see it portrayed on the TV show because of how mainstream it has became.
One of the most recent examples of consent i've seen and was really seemless was in Heartstopper! Even in the scene where Tara and Darcy kiss for the first time, there's no dialogue, its in the middle of a dance floor, its from another character's perspective, but they still take the time to show both of them looking at the other and nodding in consent before kissing and it just makes the whole scene even cuter. And then after that with Nick and Charlie's first kiss they perfectly play out consent, with Charlie making it clear that he wants to kiss Nick, but directly asking and waiting for verbal consent from Nick. It was so refreshing to see and made everything just feel so much more real and sweet.
I keep saying this! I can't think of virtually any visual media that handled consent really well. I was initially pleased when watching Marvel's Runaways when someone asked for consent before kissing someone, but the show destroyed all my goodwill seconds later. The kissing continued and the guy asked if he could touch the girl. She responded, "You really want to make this awkward, huh?" It infuriated me. Why is media so adverse to doing the bare minimum to establish consent.
Omg it drives me insane when one character literally tells another not to ask first and mocks them for it or starts laying out their general rules to the audience for why no one should ever ask for consent. Sometimes I think it's really sinister mass grooming from the predators at the top of the media world. For literally what other reason would you stop the flow of your scene and have one character completely break the romantic mood by chastising the other, except for just really wanting there to be less consent in our society? It's so extra creepy that that example particularly came from something aimed at teenagers.
@@gh0st_b0yfriend A-fucking-men! I couldn't agree more!
@@gh0st_b0yfriend it's really upsetting how plausible that theory is 🤢
Such a great video essay! Love all the points you make, you cover so many important things. I'm glad that people like you and Pop Culture Detective are discussing it
The consent scene I keep thinking of was the one in Divergent, when she doesn't want to take it too far and he doesn't, but later it goes on to show an imaginary version of him taking it too far later in the exam with that being her worst fear she has to overcome.
Having watch the show you pulled your cold open from live very recently, I’m sat there going “you may!”
In all seriousness, consent is so important. I help out a lot in the cosplay space, and my favourite event to go to every year is my local con, because they have a *huge* banner that says “Cosplay does not equal consent!”
My boyfriend and I have both been damaged by a disregard of consent in the past, so we are both very careful about it around each other. “Can we cwtch on the couch?” “May I spoon with you?” “Is it ok if I kiss you?” “Can we hold hands while we walk?”
Amazing video as always my dear.
Love from Wales. Xxx.
actual r*pe:
four words: Last Tango in Paris.
nauseating.
A good example I can think of is Lovely Writer (a 2021 Thai BL), between the two main characters called Gene and Nubsib (nickname “Sib”) I can’t remember the exact scene and dialogue but I 100% know it was consent. A bad example I can think of is Love By Chance (a 2018 Thai BL) between two side characters called Kengla and Techno which is straight up r*pe and it’s played off as comedic/romantic in the next scene. In the second season, it gets retconned as Techno “enjoying” it, despite him being drunk and passing out.
Watch Torchwood episode 1 and Owen uses an alien spray to get a woman who has a boyfriend and her boyfriend to go home with him for sex. The scene is played for laughs but it is not funny as in real life that would be classified as nonconsensual and rape
2006 was a different time. Not excusing it but yeah that was considered a joke then. Even in the commentary, RTD says something like "who wouldn't want to use that spray"
There are some good scenes of consent near the end of Moon Knight, between Steven and Marc in sharing a body, but also Layla and Taweret with Layla setting boundaries. (I wish she was a full-time avatar because it's cool)
Shoujo anime and manga ( anime and manga aimed towards young girls ) also seem to have that problem, maybe not as much anymore but still, also this reminds of the whole "guy sexually harasses girl until she gives in" trope, ( which is not how it's called but that's how i call it, i'm not even sure if it has a name ) a "good" exemple of this would be Degrassi : the next generation season 9 episode 9 called 'waiting for a girl like you', that episode sucked so much
When you said one of the best examples of consent I really thought you’d go for the obviously titled « Sex Education »
Titanic hadn’t even crossed my mind! I hadn’t really thought about consent in media I watched as a kid. Films like princess movies, James Bond. We’re just seduced by the beauty of the scenes. I’m glad that today, since 2010 I think there are way more consensual sexy scenes. Gentleman Jack, dickenson, Ratched, you, me, her, cable girls (I wonder why is it all not straights?)
I tried watching Sex Education but it’s just not for me. I’m really done with high school stuff. I’m having a hard time with the new season of Stranger Things for this exact reason.
@@CouncilofGeeks oh ok. Honestly I feel the same on Stranger things. As for SE I really liked it and I binged it all this year.
I don't know how common this is but it feels like all the time in movies or tv shows when one character initiates a kiss i tense up a little until i see whether the other person wants it. I wish they would just be clearer about it
Consent is something that as a society, I think we tend to over-complicate, when it's really quite simple. It's just about being respectful of another person's feelings and wants. And this can extend to all types of relationships. I had a friend in high school who didn't like being touched without warning, so the last time I saw him during senior year, I asked if I could hug him, and he said yes. But if he'd said no, I would have respected that because... well, that's just the right thing to do. It really isn't difficult.
18:25 which is a trope I like a lot when done well. I like watching two people challenge each other, throw intelligent insults and wit back and forth, etc. then slowly over time relize that they have a lot in common. However, 90% of the time, they start liking each other for no real reason.
Similar to how you said about dubcon with books and getting the perspective, I feel like enemies to lovers is something that can only really work in tv shows or books because they have to go through the stages of hating each other/being on complete opposite sides of their conflict, to something happening that shows them in a new light, through bonding to lovers. Movies just don’t have the time to pull that off although if anyone has a good rec hmu. Because done well enemies to lovers is one of my favourite tropes but examples like the clips you showed make me cringe
Yeeessss and enemies to lovers is usually one of those scenarios that can only exist in fiction. I actually really like it because in order for two characters to be enemies, they need to see each other as equal adversaries, and then it becomes about getting to know the worst of someone first and the best of them later.
15:00 You keep saying "man" and "woman" - which is understandable, because that's the kind of stories where a lot of these worrisome tropes originated, and more in film. But lately there have been a lot of M/M "romance" stories (especially the ones written for a female audience) that take some of dubious consent tropes and actually make them more extreme*...and I've seen some quotes from readers that say they are OK with this BECAUSE there is no woman in the scene. Just..yikes.
As you say, don't want to kink-shame. But I do think it is worth examining WHY so many people like these kinds of dubious consent stories, because I it may say something about us as a society. To me, it has always seemed like a response to the idea that a woman isn't supposed to enjoy sex...but if she doesn't have control, then its not her fault if something happens and she ends up liking it. Maybe this then gets extended out to other types of "forbidden love". IDK. But I agree that this becoming more of a niche thing than the default would be desirable, because I think it would signal that we are developing an overall healthier view of sex on a societal level.
*This is more a book/manga/fanfiction thing, of course, given the lack of gay romance in films, of course!
Woooooooow implying that consent issues vanish if there isn’t a female identifying person in the scene is messed UP.
*Two people have had a really romantic evening. Now finding themselves alone they lean in. Their noses almost touching.*
P1: "I really want to kiss you right now."
P2: "I've been waiting all night for you say that to me!"
*The couple kiss passionately.*
This really isn't hard to do and doesn't need to slow down the pace of the "action", or detract from mood. More often than not enthusiastic consent enhances those kinds of scenes.
I remember one show, that terrible heathers reboot, they did acknowledge consent…but made it seem like a cringey thing that the main character low key scoffs at. So at one part veronica is hooking up with this one guy, as he’s going down on her she’s checking stuff on her phone, something she sees as she’s scrolling on her phone shocks & upsets her and is like “NO WAY!!!” the guy immediately stops and is like “hey, i stopped as soon as i heard a no” and she just kind of gives him a dirty look, says a sarcastic “good for you” and leaves the car. it’s a small moment but it just rlly stuck with me in the worst way
Since you asked for video game examples, one of my favorites in this regard is Trails in the Sky (First Chapter and Second Chapter spoilers follow).
It starts off at the end of First Chapter, where deuteragonist Joshua kisses protagonist Estelle without asking for permission first. She had made her feelings for him quite clear at that point, so it would normally fall into the standard trope of not asking for consent. Except, in this case, it actually is made clear this is a violation of her consent, in more ways than one: He'd applied a poison to his lips which resulted in the kiss knocking her unconscious. He was using the kiss to betray her, and the lack of consent fits in with it.
The first two-thirds of the next game is spent dealing with the aftermath of this. Long story short, Joshua had his reasons for the betrayal, thinking it would keep Estelle safe. Estelle disagreed with this approach and manages to bring him around in an epic scene, after which he accepts blame and fault. By the end of the game, they're ready to proceed again, and with the threat of imminent death, Estelle fumblingly tries to ask Joshua to kiss her, but can't quite get out the words. Joshua figures out what she wants to ask, but instead of just doing it, he asks her instead, to which she agrees. And just after they kiss, they're miraculously rescued from death.
A great contrast is shown here between the kisses at the ends of these two games, with the nonconsensual kiss (albeit in a situation that in other media most wouldn't have batted an eye at) being part of a betrayal, and the consensual kiss happening just before they're both rescued from death. I honestly don't know if they were trying for the metaphor here, but if so, it was brilliantly done.
***********SPOILERS************ In Big Bang Theory Sheldon asked for Consent multiple times before he was intimate with Amy which I find interesting as he was old fashioned in a lot of ways
Especially since it was well established Amy wanted it alot, more than him, and he still made sure to ask.
@@dylanshadowstar9779 That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about that. Thanks for that
Titanic has also a great example on not giving concent, when Rose pulls her arm out of her fiancés grab, and tell him to not touch her.
Also, an example of a woman forcing herself onto a man in a film: Brigsby Bear (2017) with Mark Hamill when [MILD SPOILERS] the male protagonist who has lived in isolation for most of his life is drugged and touched sexually without his consent (he's drugged so he can't consent and also he probably was never taught what consent was!)...
I agree with the whole enemies to lovers sounding good on paper, not on film. I think that is because we can see how the characters change and grow out of their hatred and start to see things from a different view. One of my favorite examples is Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth from Pride and Prejudice. Their whole romance feels like it's a series of steps as both characters come to realize more about the other and start to change their view. It's made clear in the book, but I think it is done wonderfully on film, to some extent. (Although I think it's done a bit better in her other work Sense and Sensibility, but the opposite direction.) We are shown Cornel Brandon (played wonderfully by the legendary Alan Rickman) has feelings for Mary Ann on the spot and acts like a true gentleman around her, but she has to realize that for herself. I also agree about bringing up consent in movies, a staple I think needs to be shown as a good thing and a basis for couples to feel comfortable with. I was introduced to a film called Love Actually and in that there is one couple who explicitly ask for the other's consent.
An example of consent that I like is Femshep and Garrus's romance from the Mass Effect series.
Part of it is due to the understandable awkwardness between them, as they're each from different species, but the fact that they're friends first helps. While it's rather forward of Femshep to outright proposition Garrus in-game after he relates a story of a past sexual encounter he'd had, the way it is handled later is better. Femshep continuously checks in on him in the events leading up to and including their night together, asking if he still feels up to having sex (it's also left ambiguous whether did so due to the fade to black, with them instead doing an on-screen mutual touching of foreheads). This is followed up in the third game, with Garrus asking her after reuniting whether they should shake hands, and later asking what he should do during their date on the Citadel, after Femshep confirms that she wants to remain in a committed relationship with him.