3 Misleading Violin Instructions Teachers Give to Adult Students
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- violinlab.com Beth explains how prevailing teaching instructions can cause confusion and frustration for adult learners.
⏱Timestamps⏱
00:00- Greeting
00:15 - purpose of video
00:37 - Why teaching children is different than teaching adults
2:12 - adult violin student's learning potential
2:36 - Problematic instruction for bow hand thumbs
4:30 - a look at the thumbs of soloists
5:26 - what's misleading with the "Bent Thumb" approach
8:16 - problem with the prepositions
9:45 - problem with "thumb supports bow" instruction
10:13 - what really does hold up the bow
11:11 - special offer
11:58 - Problem with "door hinge" analogy
13:44 - the more relaxing way to do detaché
17:34 - contradicting left hand position instructions
20:00 - exercise to find best hand and thumb placement
21:32 - what to do about the inside of the hand
22:33 - Adaptable left hand is the goal
23:51- Exercises to increase adaptability
25:26 - outro
Beginners: check out my Note Reading course: violinlabcourses.com/p/learn-... 
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Omg, you are a genious and I can't thank enough. I've been always wondering and questioning my private tutor, why my bow bounces so much when I relax all my shoulder and arm muscles as I was told and just pull the bow and still shakes crazy and why my tutors bow never looked straight down to the strings but always tilted in an angle when she plays(only looked perpendicular when she demonstrates an example), and my tutor never had the answer for my itchness. And I stopped taking her tuition and started to practice on my own, doing a lots of trials looking in to the mirror and make small adjustments for like 4 months, and BOOM, found your video and fixed in a 30 mins. This is insanity. THANK YOU🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
That's what I love to hear! That was my hope!
You are 100% correct about the thumb position. I've been doing a lot of research on this because it never seemed natural for me, turned my hand into a claw position and caused serious cramping down through my wrist. So what I found out was that that position originates from the days when bows didn't have frogs and the horsehair had to be manually tightened by the thumb against the wood of the bow stick. Traditionalists adhere to this teaching as though it preserves the art of the original form. But it is merely an archaic holdover. You would be surprised how many brilliant players actually default to the so called "Banana thumb" behind the scenes. It has no negative effect on bow sound or technique whatsoever, at least in my experience. But everyone is different, so it's important to find your own bow hold, or if the traditional works better for you great.
I didn't know about the tightening of the hair with thumb pressure in Baroque bows. Thank you for that!
Agree. To know that 30% of professional violinists have some degree of chronic pain relating to their profession is far too alarming. With the adult beginners and the relative lack of joint and ligament flexibility, it is often a struggle against own anatomy- a lost one indeed. Adaptability is key!
My favorite violin teacher is back! Great video. We missed you!♥
What an amazingly informative video. I am one of those “adults” revisiting the violin after playing it for 6-7 years in middle and high school. You eloquently captured and conveyed some important distinctions. Welcome back and I hope you stay on this platform for some time forward.
GREAT video. That last one is THE most important. At least it was for me. I had developed a beginner's vibrato rather early in my adult violin learning, but, then I found I was unable to consistently transfer this from finger to finger, and, then FINALLY I found that this was due to my index knuckle being too firmly attached to the neck, and THAT was a result of my setup not being secure enough to hold my violin without any tension or support from my hand. Once I upgraded my setup, I was able to free my left hand, and EVERYTHING changed. Thank you. Violin Lab and Red Desert Violin subscriber and student here. You ladies are the best.
Thank you for that feedback! I'm glad you resolved the issues preventing your best vibrato.
@@violinlab Thank you for all you do! I discovered you and your channel through Lora Lynn Staples, and I am VERY glad she recommended you!
For the "close the gate" elbow problem, I remember my teacher had me stand against a wall. This kept my shoulder relaxed, but didn't enable me to pull my elbow behind my shoulder (because a physical wall would stop me). It was such a brilliant teaching device and I still use it for my students.
I feel so wonderful. Been struggling for two years. Self taught.
I'm a violin/viola teacher and I do see a difference in teaching children and adults. I've also found that now that I want to share how I play with my adult students, that sometimes I over share for my children students and that makes me sad. As a small child beginner, I always wanted to share with small children too, but I find myself less able to connect with them because I've been working at an adult learning program and have been focusing a lot on making playing violin something that adult learners can do. I also find that adults will have me play and then watch what my hands are doing and try to emulate that more than children do.
One of the best, most insightful instructions I've yet encountered on youtube (and I've seen a lot). I am just a beginner and the constantly bent right thumb took away the joy in playing. I am a musical teacher myself and I always tell my pupils 'to play an instrument well, you've got to enjoy all the physical movements'. Thanks very much.
I love that! Enjoy is the perfect word!
You are god sent! Im not an adult beginner, i started in 6th grade in my school orchestra, and 6 years later I've moved into the professional status playing concertos and such, my biggest challenge was that I've been trying to change my bow hold from my straight thumb to a bent one becuase thats what t was taught, but the straight thumb felt more comfortable for me, and you breaking that myth, created such a realization moment for me, like fully mind blown!! You've earned a like and a new subscriber! Thank you. ❤
Very good points! The adaptive left hand, the reaching forward of the bow arm and the neutral thumb position in the bow are really important to understand as a teacher. Hands are so different and outstanding violinists continue to show us how little "rules" there are. I think it is a freeing thing to keep in mind!
Nice to see you back! Awesome quality!
You are the BEST teacher on RUclips among all the violin teachers that I have watched so far! Thank you so much for making some tutorials available on youtube. Really appreciate!
Another great video Beth - timely reminders for so many of us - at whatever level we play at!
Thank you so much. I’ve come a long way since my childhood violin teacher put a 3/4 size bridge on my full size violin. You have given me a lot of simple things to unlearn that has transformed my sound. I appreciate you.
These are some incredibly informative tips and I'm definitely going to be revisiting these pointers as I continue my practice. Thank you Beth!
I missed your videos so much!! Glad you're back, sharing wisdom and tips. Yaaii!! 🙌
You are amazing. This video is so incredibly helpful. I’m one of those who was blessed with extremely short thumbs and I’ve always been super confused by conflicting left hand advice. Thank you for sharing!!
Well done, Beth! Misconceptions about the movements in the bow arm/shoulder are very common, even in advanced and professional players. The work of Jennifer Johnson around the topic of body mapping came to me late in my violin career but has made a huge difference in how I teach and play the violin.
Thanks! I'm not familiar with her work, but will look it up.
These tips are very helpful. Thanks you so much
You're thoughtful and generous.🎻❤ It solidified it in my mind about reaching or pushing. It's always worth spending the time to listen carefully when you have a video out.
This is great! The point about precision of language is so good! I'm a new teacher and I don't have a degree, which often makes me feel unequipped. However, there is a need in our community for teachers and I'm seeking to help fulfill that need. I had one adult and she was so receptive to precise instructions. I find with my younger students, less talking and more playing together is best. But adults are much more aware of their flaws and are in need of precise directions.
This is a great video for students and teachers alike!
I totally agree, Hannah. Teaching adults makes me have to reflect so much on precision of words.
Thank you a lot for this great video Mrs. Blackerby, it is always helpful and informative to watch your videos
Desk Flip moments on this entire video! All lessons on this I had questioned myself with no professional guidance to remedy these details. Thank you SO MUCH!
WOW! Thank you so much for this video. I am one of those frustrated adult would-be violinists. I needed this information greatly.
Thank you Beth. Thank you for another great video! I like the video and image transitions, very nice!
I´m 50 years and started violin 12 month ago whit 4/4 but just 3 weeks ago got me a 7/8 violin because it´s better for small hands. I enjoy practice more now.
I play on a 7/8ths too! I could never go back!
@@violinlab When I was thinking to change my violin there was attitude from people that adult must play full size. The good thing my hesitation was that my local luthier found me a beautiful JTL made in 1900 for 2500€ to me it´s good for the rest of my life. It make me think how many people stop playing for not hawin support or information for the 7/8 size.
@@kirsitahtinen9968yes I’ve never heard of that before! My mind is blown! Good to know. I don’t think I need it, but I wonder about my teacher who is a pretty small person.
Excellent content. Really enjoyed this video. Beth is a superb teacher.
Thank you, I will see how I do all this next time I practice. Love your information
I learn so much with your tutorials, many thanks. Maybe the best teach in youtube. Greetings from Argentina
Hola Beth! He aprendido mucho gracias a tu canal y vuelvo a ver tus videos para recordar buenas prácticas! Es una alegría verte por aquí! Muchas gracias por tus explicaciones siempre tan interesantes 👏👏👏👏👏👏💜🎶💜🎻
This is so awesome. I'm an accomplished pianist (65) who began playing violin about 2 years ago. Sadly, the first year I studied with my goddaughter (amazing player, horrible teacher) who did not focus on my bow technique AT ALL. Now, with my new teacher, I've had to basically start over. I have zero authority to teach anything about violin to anyone, but sometimes I want to post a vid that includes ALL of the mistakes I made so adult beginners don't follow suit. (That won't be happening any time soon.) I've watched this video twice. Going back for a third helping. Thank you so much!
Very clear and precious explanations. Thank you so much. Actually all of your videos are very helpful. Greetings from Italy (Elena)
The first tip literally blew my mind. Thank you.
Thank you for this! It is very helpful for a new adult learner.
Excellent tips. Thank you.
that's great! i learned about the elbow movement using a little from the shoulder on the Ferdinand Kuchtler violin method, he explains exacly that. no bow movement is made enterely of just one section of the arm. there's always something from the other sections involved somehow.
Obrigado Beth Por mais um vídeo especial!!!!
so helpful! many many thanks for this video!
You're very welcome!
This was some awesome advice for someone coming back to the violin from playing when I was a child! Thank you!!!
You're so welcome! Do consider giving Violinlab.com a visit. I have an abundance of resources and cohesive lessons to help you recover your skills.
How sweet you are explaining us whats in your heart!
It really seems to me, that you wish everybody to be an exellent player !!
I love your videos soooo much !!!
I really do!
This video not only shed some light, it opened the door!! ( forgive the pun).I am well amazed. By following what you said about bowing (still a hinge but turning the knob clockwise ) and the right up of the bow, made a HUGE difference directly on my bowing straighter, I am still far from bowing straight without concerntrating but what a difference. THANK YOU
Thank you, thank you. The kids, and I love you so much, keep up the good work!👏
Good to know now that I've been fighting my body's natural tendencies. Great!
So good, Beth, as usual! I love being able to learn violin from you at violin lab! It’s been a huge blessing, thank you!
Jessica
Aww, thank you Jessica. And thank you for being a Violin Labber.♥️
Great lesson! Thanks Beth!
That bow tilt is golden advice. I had the best practice in a month due to that little cupcake. THANKS!
That's great! It's a part of bow technique that is under appreciated.
This is soooo helpful. A thousand thanks!
Como siempre GENIAL. Muchas gracias.❤
Good for you! Very observant. Nice catch
Great video, thank you so much!
Love this lady. welcome back teacher ^-^
Generally agree - and I like the emphasis on adapting to your own unique physique rather than the dogmatism of so many less skilled teachers. But I'm surprised at the emphasis on left-hand finger strength. When you stop the string with a soft palm and the minimum required force, my experience is that very little strength is required. It's much more about balance in the frame, a crisp drop from the base knuckle, and relaxing the finger as soon as the string has sounded, in a springing motion. I never need to press the string anywhere close to the fingerboard to get a strong tone. Strength suggests we should be working with force - but surely that's what we are trying to avoid?
I think the meaning here is strength internal to the finger itself, as opposed to bringing in opposing muscles which could be very counterproductive.
I really love watching your videos even if I don't play violin, i hope to start soon tho 🥰
wonderful video thank you, I feel liberated!
I recommend Beth's course. I homeschool, and my 16 year-old-daughter has taken her beginner course this year, along with the note reading course, and I have watched her improve greatly over the past 9 months. My daughter loves her lessons, and Beth is very thorough with her lessons. She really focuses on technique. I noticed my daughter starting to relax and bend her pinky, which I have heard is a good sign that the violinist is relaxed. She also has no problems with bouncing either. She even played around on her own a little trying to dance some while playing. I like the fact that she is relaxed and enjoying playing the violin. Beth just has a very calm spirit, and it rubs off on her students.
Oh, Sue, thank you for the kind endorsement. It makes me so happy to hear your daughter is improving!
Wonderful explanation. Thank you.
You are welcome!
One of the best online violin labs I've found. Her vibrato in slow motion is a must! Two videos...
Wow, thank you!
Many thanks. Very helpful.
You are a great violin teacher. Thank you for your video.
Thank you so much ♥️
Awesome! Thank you so much! I’m the Cellist, but I find it very interesting and informative!
Awesome video! Thanks so much!😊
Thank you so much
Great advice thanks!
I'm an intermediate pianist by now and in 2 days my new instrument/friend violin will be so glad when it "feels" my hands relaxed on it thanks to your guidance. Wish me good luck for these squeaky first notes of mine 😂🎉
Bravo and thank you!
Thank you for posting this!
You're very welcome!
Thankgoodness for this.
Started playing end of last yr. Age 63.
There was no way my bow hold was going to work in usual hold expected.
You are a phenomenal teacher!
Thank you so much!
Thank you so much for your video. I am a adult starter.. I got some. Of those advices you talk about. For example my left hand thumb wants to rest more at the hight of the middle finger.. Also the thumb of the right hand.. I need to talk to my violin teacher
Excellent, thank you so much@
This video helped me a ton!
Thank you Teacher.
You are very welcome
Hello ...!
I wright you form Germany. I know You for a long time. Thanks a lot for teaching very interssted Violin Lab. I have leant Violin Form you by youre Clips.
Dentist from Germany.
Brilliant advice..Thankyou 😁
Glad it was helpful!
Gracias por todo
Teacher here! What an excellent video!
Thank you for your affirming comment!
My main obstacle to being an adult-onset student of violin is that I came in with a solid music background, music minor in college with piano, flute, and French horn training. I think I wanted to progress too fast. My intellect moved far faster than my fingers! In a sense, training in music performance is a form of physical education. Rather than training nerves and muscles to throw a baseball or make a free-throw, we are conditioning the body to play a musical instrument.
Very true, and this is a particular issue for adults, who are have developed brilliant minds. An adult understands the concepts so easily and then wonders why they can't just "do them". Our muscles and the nerves that control them are not as quick as our intellect, unfortunately.
Omg I was told the thumb thing last week and struggled to figure out why it wasn’t working well.
Por favor coloque legendas em português
Seu trabalho é fenomenal 👏👏
This video is what i've been looking for😃
Thanks friend 🎶🎻
CONGRATS!!! 🎻
In terms of the hinge of the elbow, one of the most helpful teachings for me has come from Kato Havas and the cello teacher Margaret Rowell. They both emphasise the (anatomically correct!) fact that the impulse comes from the back and upper arm, and that the forearm should simply transmit the movement passively to the root of the bow hand. I find that visualising the forearm as the actor simply creates tension. The Havas/Rowell visualisation frees the forearm up to flow more freely. This is true even with short, rapid bowstrokes. Just use your left hand to feel all the action in the muscles of your upper arm if you don't believe them!
Some good and adult insights, thank you
I love You teacher, You are the Best
Rarely do instructors address bow tilt, which is important to good tone. I noticed instructors doing this and learned to tilt by inference.
It's great you are observant and pick up on these details!
¡¡ Fantastico !!
Realiza unas presentaciones muy ilustrativas con una didáctica encomiablemente afin para conseguir una técnica necesaria, fundamental.
¡¡¡ Es una maravilla !!!
I cannot say how much this video will help me regarding bow thumb! I have been struggling with the bow from day 1 (about 7yrs ago!!!) and had my thumb very bent as you describe, thinking the position sacrosanct. Last week I went to watch a local orchestra play and was sitting less than 10ft away from violins and noticed not ONE had a bent thumb like mine! I was literally in shock. I reported my observation in an adult on line group and someone pointed me to you and this video. I am now subscribed. Brilliant and thank you!!! I am almost 65yrs old and a left hander playing a left hand violin left handed. Sadly a rarity in strings. Now the hard part... unlearning and relearning.... again. I have a feeling I will be exploring this channel in my future! ;))
Kevin, I'm glad you had that epiphany. Observing what "real" playing looks like is very powerful. I hope your bow technique has improved since then.
@@MishaSkripach if that was true, all right handers would be playing left handed. If we reverse the point, if all right handers were told 'sorry, but you have to learn left handed', I am sure it would not take long before someone asked 'why?' If your child came home from school complaining that they have to learn violin left handed, you would rightly think it was wrong or at least inconvenient and slightly unfair. I believe music should be inclusive and not exclusive. Yes, it can be an issue in orchestra, but there have been some lefties who have played in orchestra, but for all other genres and even ensembles, left handedness is not an issue. And how many players actually end up in orchestra? Probably a tiny percentage. Left handed violin is extremely sparse for instruments and even worse for shoulder rests and chin rests. I do not believe it should be that way. If the violin community opened up a little, more left handers would start playing and it would eventually become commercially viable. It happened with guitars, there is no reason for it not to happen with violin and strings. And yes, it is a bee in my bonnet! ;))
@@MishaSkripach Richard Barth 1863-1867; Paavo Berglund 1929-2012 and Rudolph Kolisch (re-learned left handed after an accident) 1896-1978; Terje Mo Hansen... the list goes on, all left handers...
You are probably right about the vast majority of adult learners not ever making it to virtuoso level, but I don't think that is the point. The point is to have joy in your life, regardless of ability. If making music brings you joy, what is the problem? There is EVERY point in buying a left handed violin, I have been playing left handed guitars for 50 years! Why would I burden myself with a right handed violin? It is nonsense. It is beyond my comprehension why some people are so violently against it. My father was also left handed and was forced at school to write with his right hand. Society has evolved from those times and we don't force people to do that any more because it is senseless. My playing left handed does no harm and makes no difference to anyone. Ever. Let us celebrate the joy of difference and be inclusive. Today I am 65 years old, I will NEVER be a virtuoso or even professionally capable on the violin. I really don't care. I LOVE playing and I LOVE music and making music. Being told I am being pointless in buying a left handed violin is frankly laughable. Light and love to you. xxx
@@MishaSkripach beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When I see someone play who is learning or not sounding good but are full of passion and love and trying their best, it is beautiful to me. Standards are relative. This is not an excuse, it is a plain fact.
A left handed car is not a creative pastime, it has nothing to do with expression or life long learning.
Consider this... why are there so few left handed violinists? The answer is very simple. It is because historically they have never been allowed. A mix of snobbery and perhaps manufacturing practicality along with a cup of prejudice eliminated them from the right handed tribe majority. 'Be like us or leave' mentality.
You also cite arm articulation, dexterity and muscle development being the same for a left hander playing right handed. A right hander uses the dominant arm for the bow. Therefore a left hander using the dominant arm for the bow has exactly the same learning curve as a right hander. It is a null argument.
Your need for pure excellence and nothing else leaves me cold and I will continue to torture my friends, family and neighbours for as long as I am able to pick up an instrument. Fortunately, you will never suffer my playing. I hope you have joy somewhere in your life, it is certainly not in the spirit of creativity of expression.
@@MishaSkripach one more thing....
I applaud you for learning to write right handed. Well done!
But you had a choice, didn't you? ;))
Thank you for this teaching.
Welkome back.
Greeting from Netherland. 🥰✍👌
Love you!
Omg ! Thank you !!!!!!!!
Thank you for this. I wasted alot of time criticizing myself because I was doing it wrong. I'd just about decided that I was just going to play wrong. Like many people in their 60s, my thumb saddle, the joint that connect to the hand, is almost gone. With hand relaxed, younger people's thumbs appear to emerge almost exactly from the edge of the palm. Mine now has migrated so that when relaxed it looks like it emerges not from the edge but from my palm near my wrist almost in line with the space between my first to fingers. That was harder to describe than I thought it would be. The point being there is no combination of finger contortions that would allow me any control with my thumb bent that much. And my left thumb, I have a matching set, doesn't work like a 20 year olds. It is where it is and as long as I can move my hand where I need to, stiff knuckles cause one to become creative, I have stopped worrying about right and wrong. That happened when this thing I always wanted to do, stopped being fun and started being daily failure. I had to decide do I want to look good or sound good. In the fiddle world, if you play well it doesn't matter if you have to take off a shoe &sock to do it. Form isn't criticized if the sound is really good.
Good for you! I am astounded sometimes how how wonderful players have totally unique left hand set ups. As long as it's relaxed and gets the job done, who cares! Having said that, there are certainly best practices that applies to most hands.
@@violinlab Absolutely. I start from what is considered or taught as the correct way. I didn't want to have to unlearn bad habits. The ways that are taught usually have a specific reason for doing things. Avoiding injury, greater ease, speed or accuracy being just a few. When you begin 5 decades after most players, one (me) is no longer nimble. There are days or a couple weeks that I don't pick up my fiddle because I know the outcome will be really bad sounds and/or pain. But I look at my music several times a day. I sing & air bow just to work out the rhythm, sometimes even with the metronome. I use the time to mark, I have my own color/symbol system for things like for STOP PICKING UP FINGER 2 or 🤔 4th or open? Which is efficient. Some times I'll just pick the notes like a mandolin just to become familiar then when my knuckles are better, I can put more attention to intonation and bowing because I know the notes. I absolutely love it that now, listening to a recording of professional fiddle players I can hear things like a roll, a hammerdown or a double up bow. I would never have this if it weren't for people like you who take the time to put this up. I hope you truly understand what a gift it is and how much joy and a sense of accomplishment your efforts afford people like me. Thank you.
Beth, I’m a 72 year old beginner, have watched several of your RUclips videos, and I think so far, this might be the best one. Thank you for these tips!
Yes! My bow was bouncing! I played trumpet in middle school and high school but my 10 year old is learning violin, and I picked up a used full size for me after enjoying the first few lesson pages on her 1/4 size. I've hit a wall with making it sound better, but I think these will address my issues!
I hope so. I have another video on my RUclips channel "Getting rid of unwanted bounces" that might help as well. Good luck!
Thanks for your course. You advanced my playing a lot. I would like to ask may be you can explain: one violin teacher said to me and never explained: "Help to your left hand with your right hand" And she studied in Vienna conservatory so she knows what to say, but it is kind of "meme" for me for a very long period of time.
I just think your teacher meant that since the hands influence each other, particularly in regards to holding tension, when you learn to play with relaxation in one hand it will benefit the other. She also might have meant that sometimes we blame the left hand when really, it's the right hand that is subtly causing problems. Either way, she's correct. The left hand will be more in tune and relaxed when we master control with the bow. Strange how that happens.
Fantastic advice! I’m right now learning the bow hold in an online school and could only think: Bent thumb? My anatomy doesn’t work like that.
I'm happy this helped!
Hi! I have a question about the bow tilt. I am a violist, not a beginner, but someone who has never really had instruction on bow technique. Do you think that tilt would also translate to good technique for the viola? I was basically taught to dig in with my bow as much as I could, especially on the lower strings (C string the most) to really get as much sound out of my instrument as possible, but that's where my instruction on bowing ended. I understand your expertise is in violin and not necessarily viola, so if you can't answer my question, I understand. I still really found a lot of helpful tips in your video. Thank you so much!
You're correct in that one needs a nice heavy arm to produce good sounds on the lower strings of a viola, but you would still tilt the bow. Watch the hair as you add weight. Even with a tilt, more pressure will flatten the hair so that all the hair can contact the string, but the tilt somehow miraculously "cleans up" the sound. Concentrate more on dropping the shoulder deep into the socket.
Weird - and yet . . . maybe it's not. A barrier I've noticed with such varied things as playing banjo, riding a horse, learning judo, and correct use of the shovel to put the coal exactly where it's needed when firing a steam locomotive is - keeping your muscles and joints fluid and mobile!
It's worth noting by older learners in particular what you say about not imposing strain on the base knuckle of your thumb. This is a prime site for early development of osteo-arthritis, and any such strain will not only make playing painful, but tend to make that condition even worse (guess how I know?).
Ha! I hear you. My right thumb is already feeling some arthritis so I'm even more cautious about keeping it as "neutral" as possible when playing.
Hello Beth. Happy Holidays! Out of curiosity, what chin rest are you using? It looks extremely comfortable.
Thanks! I'm using a Wave from wavechinrest.com