I liked the fact that they didnt do a redemption arc for Marcus. It's so common to see redemption arc's for bad guy's in today's media. It's refreshing to see a guy with good intentions, but bad actions, die disgraced, unable to undo his mess. Because it's just so real. We usually do something bad and then are unable to undo it.
It's a realistic and fresh perspective on the archetype of the "currupted cop". Not a cruel man who doesn't care and only wants money; but a conflicted man who couldn't repair the mistakes of his young hot-headed self and that can't just run away from them for the sake of his daughter.
he's decent character in the story because he doesn't right any of his wrongs. he just dies and that makes him more real. his arc was being a piece of shit who didn't have the guts to do the right thing or even the guts to commit fully to being evil and finally got killed for it. he's died a good death. i don't think i was alone when i thought fuck you marcus but also pity for him when he died.
I always felt Marcus was a very tragic supporting character. We watch him go from a cocky bastard to a man who's honest to god trying his best to fill Grayson's shoes and play the same role she did in trying to keep the peace between the upper and lower cities, but he was dealt such a rotten hand in that Silco was a much, much worse man to be making deals with while Vander and Grayson at least had some kind of tangible mutual respect for each other and actually had the same goals. They were more diplomatic with each other. Meanwhile Marcus later thinks he's playing the same role but instead he's being used more than anything. Even though he's a "weak" character he felt just as real, if not more so in some ways, as the rest of the starring cast. He was just a very average man with nothing truly grounding him until he had a daughter and then he was just trying his best with her basically being the only thing keeping him going to the very end. He was just too cornered and misguided along the way.
That's exactly how I feel about Marcus too. He's a pretty mundane character. I don't like him but I feel bad for him and he feels ridiculously realistic.
@@emma2884 And let’s be honest. Most of us are probably a lot more like Marcus than any of the other main characters. Just blindly going through life, reacting to the actions of those around us and hiding from our shortcomings until we are inevitably buried under the weight of our failures.
You captured his character so well, as unremarkable as he was you cant help to feel for him and his short-comings, his character feels so real and i was deeply saddened by his death and unresolved life and character arc
Coming out of the show, Marcus was my favorite character. I don't think he had enough time to grow, and it was clear he respected Grayson a lot. I think he made deals with Silco only because he watched her make deals with Vander. He definitely did feel real, his mistakes were real, his fears were real, his regrets were real, and I think that's why I liked him so much. We know a lot of these characters have plot armor, they're fantastical and near-inhuman. Vi, Jayce, Ekko, Jinx are all duking it out with blades, guns, and explosions but you know they'll be fine. I feel like Marcus grounded the world of Arcane showing that topside was not all roses and sunshine. A part of me wishes he didn't die, but I also loved how he went out. I think his abrupt and unceremonious death was just the perfect cap to his well-meaning unremarkable tragedy.
I think that Marcus is just the perfect embodiment of the "show don't tell" philosophy with regards to SHOWING the average perception of someone from Piltover towards someone from Zaun. I think you'd believably imagine that many people in Piltover would behave and think in much the same way as him, and Marcus is just our on-screen representation of that. He doesn't need to be anything more than that for the sake of the story and that's okay (and he's still a very believable and human character because frankly some people are just as bigoted and one-dimensional as Marcus is in the real world). But your point about him being a foil to Caitlyn perfectly captures why I don't think he needed to be anything more than exactly what he was in the show, because he allowed us to understand what makes Caitlyn DIFFERENT.
I can respect Marcus being a foil for Caitlyn but he is far from perfect. If the writers decide to introduce Camille in season 2 (and I have a hard time seeing why the wouldn't because thematically her backstory plays well with both Viktor and Jinx's progression) you'll see how flawed Marcus was designed in this story.
@@mutantmagnet And honestly when Camille does Show up it'll make Marcus's whole existence pointless because she already fulfills everything he does but better.
@@badconnection4383 But Camille is not in season 1, after all the creators of this show couldn’t know if it would be successful or not. So they needed to represent Piltover’s views is S1.
@@petrorlov2599 Camille will do that better when she shows up. Marcus is a representation of surface level bigotry, while Camille is a representation of bigotry by system.
He didn't start as a corrupt cop. He started as a mean and over zealous cop. Grayson wasn't dealing with the robbery, which was frustrating him, he couldn't understand why. This put him on the mindset to be easily manipulated by Silco.
Exactly. He starts as a self-righteous, but not corrupt, cop. And he doesn't understand why Grayson compromises with Vander. Then he ends up in a position where he has to compromise with Silco, in a worst deal than Grayson ever had with Vander. And he knows it's his fault.
Wait a sec that's a parallel there. Grayson wasn't dealing with the robbery because she and vander had a deal and she could not break the deal. vander wasn't ready to give up the robbers because they were his children. Now after act 1, there's an explosion that Marcus isn't dealing with because he has a deal with Silco. and silco isn't ready to give up jinx because she is his daughter.
He was also unable to see the bigger picture. It also seemed that he was brainwashed as a kid to hate the people of zaun, which carried on to his adulthood, and still kept that narrow mindedness until his last breath.
@jugemujugemugokonosurikire4735 I think he had started getting over that, he now hated silco and silco's crew, as opposed to anyone from the undercity - otherwise I think he would have be3n less resistant to throwing echo under bus.
TBH Marcus is >85% of the people who happen to get stuck between great powers. Don't fool yourself into believing that you are "the One" who can ressist and push back in such a situation. When faced with the possibility of losing the most precious in your life it is HIGHLY LIKELY that you will buckle and bend.
Yeah, calling him unnuanced is a little uncharitible. He's a guy who knows he's not doing the right thing but doesn't have the strength to stand up, who has to much to lose. That's already way more nuanced than just some corrupt asshole cop
This is exactly why I like Marcus so much, he's one of the most realistic and relatable character in the series even if most don't realize (or want to realize).
Silco, Vander, Markus, Benzo... Arcane is the show of loving single father figures. As a single father raising my daughter... I absolutely love this! It's so different than the usual portrayal.
I didn't think of Benzo in that category, but you're absolutely right! That's interesting! I def want to make a video on Arcane's parent/child relationships, lots to say on that
Am I the only one who liked the fact that Marcus failed constantly/ was a screw up? To me it felt like his character humanized the setting( irl there are always those people who try to do the good thing but keep failing nonetheless.) as well as making the success of other characters feel that much more earned and suspenseful as we can see that some characters might not succeed.
I agree, I think they are like one of few other tragic characters that ran out of chances to redeem themselves, and I think its okay because again, just like the other viewers has commented... some plot stuff would not be possible without Marcus's involvement. They are bound to fail again and again in order to have surviving characters' growth come true. ... In real life this is also true, there are people that died because they never had the chance to change their habits, or that they are that unfortunate to not have much second or more chances in life. I worry about the likes of CWC for how the society they are in, is failing them, back then and up until now I think that they are in the jail.... As if they are bound to not develop into a more likeable person because they are in an awful set of circumstances (e.g., that Chris is in the spectrum, their parents entrusted the growth of their child to the electronics, Chris kept on responding to their trolls, and the professionals around them failed to help Chris become a more functioning healthy grownup.) Unfortunate people like CWC has served me a reason to change my habits. Their inactions and its consequences to their life has served as a warning, that if you kept on ignoring the details in your life experiences, you may end up in a more miserable position, and in the end it could cause you your last chance to become a redeemable person. I may or may not be in the spectrum too, but these people had it worse than me, and I feel like not ending up like Marcus.
I think one of the best things about Marcus is he represents the more average characters in the show, he's not a league character, he's not destined to eventually become one of the main characters everyone knows people like Vi, Jayce, Jinx, etc. will become. the scene where Silco is planting evidence in the show and Marcus has the urge to sacrifice himself to kill Silco is a great example, he clearly wants to do good, he's realized what Greyson did for the balance of things, in his eyes his former boss has turned from someone he looked down on for sinking to dealing with the undercity, to someone he understood what she was accomplishing. And I think the only thing that holds him back from that is the fear of endangering his daughter, he has the realities of an average person, he has people who rely on him and reasons he can't just throw caution to the wind like alot of other characters in the show. Silco clearly knows this and in the same scene mocks him for it with the whole, "Imagining yourself a hero? one final act to make you the martyr you've always seen yourself as?" line, Silco knows that if he didn't have something over Marcus he wouldn't be going along with his shit anymore he'd most likely choose to martyr himself in an attempt to make up for his role in all this, but he does, and he knows how to put pressure on it.
I wouldn't necessarily say he's a bad character. He is a supporting character. Not every character can be a main character, and he is used to build up those around him. If a main character had the same depth as Marcus, then that would be a bad character. But Marcus is not a main character, he is just a side character who doesn't even show up in the intro.
I agree with you, but even Arcane's supporting characters have more depth and nuance. Ekko has much less screentime than Marcus, but he's interesting and likeable has an arc that begins and ends satisfactorily in a single episode. Even the characters without arcs like Grayson, Ambessa, and Singed are so well designed that they draw us in with their uniqueness.
@@schnee1 To be clear, I do think that Marcus is a side character and doesn't have much depth to him in comparison to the major players. But I want to give some credit to Marcus and say that he is not entirely without interest. Marcus is probably the most human character. You have all these larger-than-life League Champions running the show, and then you have this little man Marcus getting caught up in the crossfire, trying to survive the consequences of his errors. To me the most interesting part of Marcus was his end. He had no redemption, no hero's moment. He couldn't even finish his final words. Sometimes in life, there is no out, and it really struck me during the bridge scene. I very much expected a redemption from Marcus, because there's always a redemption. But there wasn't for Marcus. BTW, another great analysis schnee. Keep em coming. :P
@@wpelfeta I never thought of it like that but - yes - you're absolutely right and that fits perfectly into how the show kept on subverting my expectations based on my experience with most other shows, books, games and media in general. Like how Silco at first very much looks like your stereotypical villain in episode one and it's only with episode 3 and onwards that his other layers are starting to show. Same with Mel Medarda. They don't exactly hide her true motivations but they also don't go out of their way to show them either. It's only within the second half of the show that we're slowly seeing that there's more to her than that.
I'd describe him more as a weak/uncompelling character than a bad one. He's a supporting antagonist and he fulfills the role he was made for extremely well, and even then we get a full sense of his motivations (without having to like or even sympathize with him).
@@schnee1 Marcus starts out as a vicious, intolerant, plotting, and power hungry young man because he believes power creates justice. Instead he becomes a party to corruption far worse than what existed and he maintains a dreadful status quo because the alternatives are far worse. Yes, Silico could murder his daughter, but seldomly does anything good come from the chaos of a power vacuum. He realizes the errors of his ways after he's too far in and becomes trapped by his actions. He's forced to live in violation of his own ideals because he grossly misinterpreted the world he lived in. Arcane's story telling is economical in use of scenes. Marcus exists strictly as a foil and anytime spent fleshing him out takes away from the main cast. The arcs of Ekko, Ambessa and Singed are just beginning and were more limited in scope. Marcus is neither a bad character or an underdeveloped character. He's unlikable and unrelatable because there isn't time to flesh out his flawed characters traits and make them understandable, he is only as developed as he needs to be.
I feel kind of bad for Marcus to be honest. He brought it on himself - I know he did, but since when he made the deal, he was likely a new parent with a baby, and he probably just wanted the aclaim or a bonus to get nice stuff for her then it put him in a hole he couldn't get out of... I'm not a fan of him, but I can't help but feel somewhat sorry for him.
I was thinking that too about how his daughter must have just been born or on the way when he made the deal -- makes the Silco playtime scene more chilling for sure! I wondered if that also might have been why he decided to save Vi, since he saw her losing her parent, which was his ultimate fear for his own daughter. Man I gotta make a video about all the parent-child relationships already...
@@schnee1 Its honestly sad to think about. Especially considering when he rose to become the Sheriff they probably twisted his arm more than he probably expected them to - he expected it to be a one time thing, he didn't even expect Grayson to be killed. It makes me wonder if he planned on Vander being killed and his children orphaned - as "plans change." Perhaps the despair from young Vi and seeing how the loss of a parent affected a child firsthand really fueled his drive to not leave his child alone. Plus how in his last moments, when he asks them to tell his daughter that he loves her... it's kind of a tragic-not-quite-villian thing. Dunno, think I'm rambling now lmao, but yes!! Videos from you are always a delight. You should definitely do it. 👀
I feel Bad for him too. He tried to do the best for his child. He did many things wrong that's what is undeniable... But in the end he was a human being trying to do what is in his force to do the best for his child. I hate his attitude... But the series made feel everything in it so real that I show humanity for him and especially for his child which has to live without father now.
@@Lusor_Caterpillar Agreed. Amazing how a show can make you sympathize with a.. less than likeable character lmao. It's honestly rather tragic - I hope his daughter will end up alright. I also wonder what happened to her mother.. If we see her at all in S2 again, I'd be interested in learning more about her - even if she's such a minor character.
I actually like Marcus, he was one of the driving force in the show. If you removed Marcus in the story so many things change. Grayson (I forgot the spelling), benzo, claggor, milo and Vander will be alive. Powder wouldn't need to create his monkey bomb to help vi and crew. Vi, milo and claggor wouldn't have needed to help vander. I think he's character is very realistic and genuine. In story writing context yes that is true that he character might be unappealing. But Arcane does have an emphasis on how real the character feels. Like they are actually human. So, I honestly don't see any flaws in Marcus character because that's the way he is. If he is changed ever so slightly the entire plot would have changed. If he wanted his daughter to live a better life then we will find silco dead before jinx can ever kill him. And so on. Not all of the weakest character is a bad character. Sometimes we need a weak character to move the plot forward to enhance and enrich character development. We need a contrasting force so we can have someone we can hate or dislike or something similar. There are other stuff as well.
Idk I disagree on a lot of those, especially the first few. Marcus being an arrogant dumb ass wouldnt change what Grayson said, Pilover demanded a sacrifical lamb. Vi still wouldve tried to contact Grayson, Vader would still try to swap places, so Grayson and Vader would be there to pick him up, and Silco couldve went on with his plan, and hed know of enforcers movements through his other informants. So everything up to Vi being put in jail by him wouldve been the same. We see how much people despise Zaun, through the council and other enforcers. And over all tbh, I dont mind using a bad character as a prop, which is what he is, what did annoy me was the inclusion of his daughter, and trying to buy him some simpathy. Especially when the topic of daughters causing us pain is already kinda too much in the overall story.
@@BambiLena666 you may have a point I honestly don't know all of the things in the story of arcane. But the thing there is timing. Marcus was in the right place in the right time or wrong place in the wrong time. If he wasn't there, Vi would have charged in to save powder. Marcus took Vi because he was worried that Silco would kill her too, in the line "He might kill you too if he hears you". Marcus Night have a different intention, but the timing was perfect! Yes, Piltover hates the lanes and would still have tried to take them away but a completely different story would have unfold. 1st Vi and Jinx could have been reunited without Marcus intervention. Which would have never let powder to become jinx in the first place. 2nd Vi or Jinx or both could have gotten hurt or died because of Silco and his goons. Well that's self explanatory. Also Marcus made a deal with Silco, I might be mistaken by what that deal is but with the context given it is relating to Vander and Grayson. With the line " this isn't part of the deal". But that is true even without Marcus Silco could have still gotten Vander and killed Grayson because Vander will still swp places with Vi. And yes Silco's informant can spoof the enforcers. But that is a very high liability and a massive risk to silco. With Marcus it's killing two birds with one stone getting Grayson into the lanes and knowing that Vander will be there. Which means without Marcus silco needs to make sure Grayson goes down into the lane and figure out where van der will be going. Plus Marcus is the informant, without him Silco's timing might be off. He needs to rely in the shadow instead of an inside man than can feed him the info from the direct source. Plus I do believe the big reason Vi wanted to surrender herself because of Marcus and his enforcers almost finding powder and the gang. I might be wrong with the last part.
It's not that Marcus is not an essential character just his arc is poorly written or even absent. In the series we don't feel empathy for him at all, his thread with his daughter is boring and unnecessary because it doesn't lead to anything. The supporting character should not only be a tool and a contrast to the rest of the characters. Marcus in Arcane was needed, but the potential to show his internal conflict wasn't used.
Marcus is the most real character. None of us is Vi or Jayce, even if we like to believe it. We all are weak when out of our waters, we are all manipulated, we all can't escape the role society has uppon us and when we try we get destroyed. I was deeply moved by him, because I would be that character and that's why I felt he was compelling. A small man trapped between great forces.
I think the Marcus being unable to shot Cait scene could be compared to how Jinx looks away from the people she shoots them, to show how detached she is from reality. Marcus seems to realise the weight of taking a life, while Jinx detaches herself from that weight.
My take on Marcus' character is that he always wants to do the right thing but keeps pushing it off. He always tries to pivot or delay or hide instead convincing himself that he still has time to do the right thing. The character arc seems to head towards that maybe he will have redemption. But time ran out. He died before he could ever realize that character arc. And that's realistic. If you keep on pushing things off, your time might end abruptly without you ever having gotten close to accomplishing them.
I don't see it as him pivoting, delaying or hiding, necessarily, but rather constantly searching for a way out and having to bide his time until he could, which never came. It's similar to what you said, but comes at your endpoint from a different starting perspective. Sometimes the devil is in details. You're suggesting he was okay with all the bad things he was doing, thinking there'd be time to eventually fix it. What I saw was a man who knew the walls were closing in after he'd realized the error of his ways, but just couldn't find a way out before they did.
The way I interpreted the 'martyr' line from Silco is that Marcus took over Graysons role as the mediator with the undercity. Yes, Silco is much worse than Vander, but I think that Marcus just sees it as his job to keep the peace between Piltover and Zaun in whatever way he can. That relationship is obviously skewed in Silco's favour and Marcus isn't strong enough to actually stand up to him in any significant way. Marcus is stuck, and he has to tell himself that he is continuing Graysons legacy in order to live with what he did. He convinces himself that he is sacrificing his honour for this necessary evil. That is how I see it, and it fits that Silco calls him out for it.
I think the most tragic part about Marcus is that he was SO CLOSE to making things right. If he had pulled the grenade pin in Silco's office, he would have fixed everything. Silco would have died, Shimmer likely would have went away, Jinx wouldn't have been injured and revived with Shimmer, and he would have died a hero. Yes, his daughter would be left without a father, but he would have went out in a blaze of glory that saved both Piltover and Zaun. But that isn't what happened. Because Marcus isn't a hero. He's just a guy trying his best to live up to impossible standards he has no chance of meeting. He's terrified of leaving his daughter, the one person who idolizes him, just like Grayson left him. Marcus may be the most "average" character in the whole show, and unfortunately it isn't the average people who can make the kind of decision that would have saved everyone. I'm glad he didn't pass the baton to Caitlyn because it isn't a baton that should be passed. A person who compromises their beliefs to save their own skin, puts on a lie to the people they care about, and aren't willing to make the tough decision for the sake of others isn't the kind of sheriff Piltover needs, and it isn't the kind of person Caitlyn is. So in the end, Marcus died the way he lived: all for nothing.
Jinx was sitting above them though and the grenades have a timer. So even IF he did pull the pin, he would get shot by Jinx and they would duck for cover before it could do any real harm.
Would the grenade save everyone? I don’t think so as someone else would have taken over Silco’s position in the power vacuum. It could have made things worse
@@aksjhdbaksjhdbNotASpam The explosive has a wide range and they're in a small office, there would be nowhere to hide and Jinx would have simply died with them
Marcus is such an underrated character. He's uninteresting, weak, and unsympathetic. Yet, he's an incredibly realistic character. He's a man doing shitty things, for good intentions. And, he fucks up every single step of the way. He's a man who wants to do his damn job well, keep his loved one safe, and save the city he lives in. And he fails. At every damn thing. That's the really realistic and relatable thing about him. He fails. We all do. And I kinda felt the same way he did when my life wasn't going too well. I've felt like I was doing shitty things for what I thought were good reasons. And I wanted to end it. And I think some others here may have felt the same at some point. Not all characters have to be strong, good, or interesting. Sometimes they just have to be relatable. Marcus is that kind of character.
Great analysis. Though I think you missed a parallel Marcus has with another character: Grayson. In the past, he couldn't understand why Grayson would deal with Vander, a prolific de facto leader of the undercity. He had a simplistic dualistic view (Piltover = good. Undercity = thrash). Grayson did so because her experience has thought her that the alternative (war) would be catastrophic, so she aligns herself with "necessary evil", but a benign one in Vander. Eventually, Marcus find himself taking the same deal/be in the same position, however with an objectively worse undercity leader in Silco. His scene at Grayson's grave shows his Arc: he now sees the complexities in relationship between Piltover and Undercity that Grayson had to play, and now he knows he's playing the same game, but he's objectively much worse at it. He used to scorn her part in it, but now finding himself trapped, he empathizes with Grayson. Moreover, he now RESPECTS her even more precisely because he's in a similar but worse situation, playing with the worse "devil". Even in his death, he dies similarly to Grayson: a victim of Silco's influence and machinations. Interestingly, Grayson serves as an Enforcer mentor figure for both Caitlyn and Marcus. Caitlyn was inspired by Grayson to become an Enforcer in the first place, while Marcus models his captainship after hers. Grayson served as the ideal for both these characters that saw her differently. Ironically yet fittingly, they both fell on opposite ends of Enforcer's code of justice. This enforces the parallel opposite nature of Marcus vs Caitlyn but with Grayson as the lynchpin between them.
FANTASTIC points! I wish I had remembered the Grayson/Caitlyn scene especially! Since I posted this vid, I've actually been thinking a lot about Marcus' relationship with Grayson, and your comment helped me understand it a lot better. It's like his willingness to work with Silco was his clunky Marcus-brain understanding of what Grayson was doing with Vander, because to him Vander and Silco were "all the same". But with Vander's death, he realized that Silco was leagues worse than Vander (which is possibly why he decided to save Vi too). Interesting too that if Marcus HAD killed Caitlyn, then he would have essentially been playing Deckard's role in Grayson's fate. Maybe that's another reason why he couldn't do it. Man, now I gotta make Marcus part 2 lol...
I was going to say how human Marcus was in the show and how that made him a very appealing character to me, but there are surprisingly many other comments saying exactly that! Glad to know others see that too.
This guy don't deserve to be called human, I thought that he could become good when he dropped silco's payment on the ground, but since this fuckhead continued to work for him, I am pretty sure that he went on his knees to grab the coins 5 minutes after. He could also just save Vi because he felt guilty for the death of Vander but nooooooo, he wanted that promotion now that he have the person to blame for the heist and that the sheriff died on his fault. I would say to his daughter "good riddance".
@@leonurbach6841 You completely missed the point then. You're almost definitely more similar to Marcus than any of the show's other characters, it's just hard to admit your own mistakes.
@@danielwoods3896 did he admitted his mistakes when he shot a fucking kid ? Is it a mistake to hate a such a morally wrong an egoistic character? The fact that his daughter is threatened by Silco is the result of his choices. Nothing to save for him, or please explain me guys, because I really cannot find anything good in him.
I personally dont think a character being unappealing equals them being a bad character when they are clearly fulfilling a role in the story and to other characters while ALSO being a realistic person that doesnt come across as artificial. Hes not as spectacular as the others but he is a person who made decisions that lead him to every point of his life that we saw and we saw him hate it but not be strong enough to get out of the cycle either cause he cared for someone else more. I dont think they did anything wrong with his character and I dont think he is a flaw. He is exactly as he should be.
I actually found Marcus really interesting. He's weak and puts his own personal interests before helping the people of the Undercity and Piltover alike, but he's self aware of his weaknesses. He wishes he could be the hero he should be, he knows what he needs to do to make it right but his daughter and his own selfishness stops him. Almost like Marcus is Piltover boiled into a character, particularly the council. The council knows the issues with the undercity, but they are too weak and too selfish to act. Putting their own self interests above what needs to be done. Marcus fails to act in time and this gets him killed. Much like the council fails to act in time and going by the end of season 1, this will get a lot of them killed. There's something to be said about a character who fails to achieve what you were hoping they would.
Marcus being uninteresting and underdeveloped is NOT a bad thing. The way I see it Marcus is just NORMAL, in a world full of such massive characters he's just a regular, weak person with fantasies of being the main character in his story. He doesn't shoot Caitlin because I dont think he's killed anyone in the show if I remember, and he's scared to. He's not some big idealist father with big speeches on morality, he's just a normal dad. In the grenade scene he fantasies about blowing up Silco and being a hero, something he's fantasied about many times, But he doesn't, because he's scared and I think its just for his own life. While watching this character I keep thinking of an episode from Ghost in the Shell: stand alone anime called S2 ep2 Well-fed Me. I think your solutions, especially with the daughter just tries to put too much emphasis on characters who are just Normal, Everyday, 9 to 5 characters. It's hard to fully explain my thoughts like this but I hope my rambling makes some kind of sense. Love the video essays
I was honestly rooting for Markus the whole time and really wanted him to get redemption. He was actually one of my favourites. I like how you see he really wanted to do good and sacrifice himself but couldn’t bring himself to do it. Like what would happen In real life.
I think this character doesn't need to be fixed, because he's good as he is. Your fixes would ruin his arc. His arc is telling to us that doing the right thing is not only about that you know the right path, you also have to do it. He's the character who doesn't have the courage to drive change. And that's what we see through his story.
I'd always thought Marcus was a representation of the mediocrity of the majority of people as compared to the larger-than-life characters in the main cast. Can't kill Cait, can't cut a good deal with Silco like Grayson did, and can't muster up the courage to take Silco out with him. But him being a foil to Cait works so well that I can't believe I didn't notice it before.
One thought on Marcus death scene: While Powder sings the song in the first scene, Jinx only hums it there. She is no more begging for a coin from Piltover citizens, but she is the one bringing death to Piltover enforcers. So, this also portraits Jinx’ evolution and the shifting balance between Piltover and Zaun.
It's funny that I didn't think of it until now, (or maybe it was already talked about and I totally forgot. XD), but Marcus once accused Vander and everyone for "a crime behind every coin that passes through this place". Then Marcus committed the ultimate 'sin' he never thought he'd do: receive blood money which he caused. In that vein, I thought about all of Arcane's characters and realized nearly all them end up committing the exact thing they feared. Vander became a monster again, Silco sacrificed his cause for love, Vi broke her relationship with her sister, Ekko fell for the Powder in Jinx, Caitlyn couldn't save Piltover and Zaun. Viktor strayed from his ideal of science to the darker forms of science like his teacher. Jayce's invention, which he had such high hopes for helping people, in his own hands, killed people. It's amazing how the writing subtly tells you what each character fears and it still hits you like a truck when it happens.
My idea to this: There are "great"characters, who influence the story (about all main characters), there are characters, who aren't that great in willpower or influence (and though aren't worth mentioning) and there are characters in the middle, like Marcus, who kinda influnce the whole thing and are not really unimportant enough to not tell about him.
This was the exact issue that I was facing in my story. Your analyse videos are really informing, I hope you're aware how much of a help these are while also being entertaining
The “Martyr” comment read a little different to me. Marcus see himself as a kind of slow martyr, both by trying to imitate his mentor with an incomplete understanding of her relationship of the undercity, and his working with Silco being viewed as a necessity. Marcus does not see himself as a man of privilege living a good life, he sees the reality that everything he has is contingent on satisfying Silco. He does not view being sheriff as an honor, but a burden he must carry, lest someone else be forced to. There’s a lot of weird, twisted feelings about his inferiority to Grayson and his being beholden to Silco. So I think that’s what Silco means when he dares him to pull the pin, that Marcus imagines himself the one thing stopping Silco from taking over; a suffering, silent protector, and Silco dares him to make it more than just talk.
Marcus' character is so bad that he's a good character. He's good at making you hate him and really appreciate every other character. Every time he came on screen, I felt nothing but pure hatred for him. For how he screws over the investigations into Zaun, separates Vi and Jinx, does nothing meaningful, and always complains. He feels real and compelling in all the wrong ways a person can be.
"Does nothing meaningful" is a little harsh. He saved Vi's life, and he hid all of Silco's shady business from the council. He's a major player in the story
@@tevenpowell8023 I think they might have meant in a more moral sense? He basically upholds the status quo but that kind of always seems to come with the job in Piltover's power dynamics.
His character feels like the 'normal man in a special world' kind of character, he's trying to be special like his peers, put into this situation unwillingly, tries to, wants to, and even IMAGINES himself being a hero and sacrificing himself to prove a point, but is always held back by something and unfortunately remains a 'useless' person with no closure or redemption til the end. His character feels the most relatable to me because he is what I fear of being, my goals in life is to end up doing something big, something impressive and make the people I care about happy and proud of me and redeem myself for all my mistakes but my fear is failing to meet those expectations and accomplish nothing to the end of mine, or their lives.
When you consider what Markus is supposed to represent... I'm kinda glad they left him a bit underdeveloped. He got exactly the right amount of screen time. Only used to further the plot. Think about it... Every time Markus appeared on screen the storyboard drastically changes in some way. New stakes are revealed or power changes hands or at least implies it might be getting ready to. Markus is vital to move the story forward as an essential and arguably the primary tool of our main antagonist (Silco)... and protagonist (Jayce) at times. As well as heading up the force of sworn enemies of the entire undercity, including the majority of the cast in this threeway battle royal.
I'm inordinately fond of Marcus, even with the reasons you describe, and I think this video you made is REALLY strong. Arcane is one of the best written ANYTHING I've seen in years, and seeing someone else ALSO analyze it with respect to economy of storytelling. I think Marcus serves his purpose - exactly how you described. I never saw the Caitlyn/Marcus parallel, too! so that rocks. Thank you king.
I think you miss one angle of Marcus, and that is his role as as a warning about the consequences of complacency and corrupt, mirroring the complacency of Heimerdinger and the corruption of the council.
I feel like Markus represents the average enforcer. Raised ti believe the under city is corrupt and evil. Fights them. Slowly becomes that corruption and realizing how far he has fallen before dying. I honestly like Marcus. Because every other character in the show has a story of growth. Whether that growth be for better or worse. It’s something enduring or something ti cry over. Marcus however atleast to me represents most of us. As we get older we realize the folly of our actions, see how foolish we were and the hurt we’ve caused at times. But do we ever change? Do we ever have a moment of triumph where we grow beyond ourselves? No, we do not. For most of us we live our lives the same way till our death bed, and for others such as Marcus it’s cut short.
Marcus is one of my favorite character, so much more appealing to me than Caitlyn or even Ekko, he's that guys that believe in what he does and is really ambitious, but he's clearly wrong and don't know what he's doing, once he realize it, it's too late, i won't call him a coward because that's what most people would do at that point, he had great ambition, but not anymore, he's afraid and full of regret, and he looks miserable you said he didn't kamikaze on Silco because of his daugther, but i think he was just afraid to die, that's not an easy thing to do, and again, he looks like a coward for an anime character, but this would be the most common reaction you would have in real life... i really like this way to write "human" character, it's very important to have this character reminding what it is to be normal/nothing exceptional
Marcus being a bad character was genius because they used him right, he's human and realistic in some ways, so that lack of uniqueness makes him versatile for his position.
Marcus is definitely unlikable. But I like what he adds to the world of Arcane. I love your analysis videos - they are very insightful and help put into words how I feel about Arcane. But I don't think my opinions on anything or any of the characters have changed. Despite Jinx being my favourite character I can easily relate to, I can very much relate to Mel's act 3 arc. There are so many good characters in Arcane, but Jinx and Mel stood out more to me.
I think it's important to distinguish between a *Bad* character and a *Flat* character. Characters are, ultimately, tools for telling a story. Sometimes the best tool isn't a deep, complex character with a dynamic arc: sometimes it's a brick in a wall.
Marcus couldn't shoot Cait like all those reasons, but also because his weakness couldn't let him be responsible for this like he feels for Grayson, it's conflict, weakness and regret and all that. It's his bad character traits conflicting, as opposed to any good traits rising, it is specifically his bad traits that lead to this hesitation.
I’m literally so in love with Marcus - yes he’s a bad person and he did bad things and he should’ve killed Silco but he genuinely felt bad about what he did. He recognized what he did
he was so ambitious, when he looks at Caitlyn, he see what he wanted to be before he got stuck into his own mess, forced to get a little more corrupted everyday, he's the most miserable character on the show and i love it
In regards to the “Can’t shoot Cait” scene, I think it’s actually handled super well, and the only thing they could’ve changed to unify that opinion would be to have a quick flash of Greyson’s dead body (maybe a flash of his daughter too). The funeral scene shows he deeply respects who she was and what she was able to do. A deal was struck between her and Vander, and it prevented a war, kept mutual respect between the pair, with neither side being a puppet to the other. “She was a good woman.” On the bridge it seems as if he is seeing Greyson in Cait, and the only way to save his daughter is to kill not just a good cop, but “a good woman.” He sees his failures catch up to him, and he’s struggling because he has to go against his intentions: being a good man, a hero, and a good father.
The Martyr line is about how Marcus feels he is falling on his sword to protect piltover by working with silco. He views it (even if its a lie he tells himself) as a sacrifice for the greater good, for his daughter.
I think Marcus is really human. He attempts arcs but fails - in fails to comprehend, attempts to correct don't work. So many people have great ideas and plans to improve themselves and the world around them, and fail.
I honestly felt like the unlikeability of Marcus was what made him so interesting. Ultimately his purpose of existing was to set up Caitlyn taking the sheriff role later, and that's it, but I also think his general place in the story will pay off later as well. I suspect his daughter is going to be a character we see more of and she's going to be a supporting character of her own. That will retroactively add more value to Marcus as he's helping set up the character she's going to be as well. That naturally makes him more compelling, we just can't see the full payoff of his presence yet.
I don't think Marcus is a character that needs to be fixed, he is, in his own way... perfect. In a show with so many super-characters capable of unbelievable things, Marcus is very much a realistic character. In real life, you often get into situation you can't control, and the average person will often times not be capable of changing the whole situation to his liking, because unlike movie characters, the average person isn't a super hero. I think Marcus is exactly that, a perfect average real life person. he tries to do his best for his own goals, not realizing how damning his actions are until it is too late. Later he realizes what is happening and what he is, but is still unable to change the course, self-preservation, ego, whatever it is that is holding him, he's become a prisoner of his past faults. And I think that's very relatebla, I can imagine how many average everyday people feel the same stuck in their lives, granted the average real person isn't intertwined in such a high stake political situation, so it's different in that way, of course, but the concept of a single character and his struggle, I think, is what makes Markus relatable in a way. I also think it makes the world feel more realistic, despite it being a magical fantasy world.
One thing I'm not sure of is the idea that Marcus is "a regular crooked cop". His first deal with Silco is that of an informant telling the police about a group of fugitives, pretty standard. After Graysons death he saves Vi and reestablishes an uneasy version of the peace with Vander, but with Silco as a counterpart, which is more taxing than it was with Vander. He is Grayson but his counterpart forces him to become rougher and once his daughter comes into the picture he can be blackmailed. I don't think he was as bad as he started. He only seems to look up to Grayon after he takes over her position and the dealings, he doesn't seem to look down upon the Zaunites (at least not as obvious.) His hesitation to shoot Caitlyn to me seemed to be more linked with his love and affection for his subordinates, which made him nearly break the peace with Silco. I might be reading more into him but to me Marcus seems to be a man with a naive view of justice who believed the anti Zaun propaganda, made a mistake and spent his life trying to restore what he inadvertently helped destroy.
The story behind this channel is so surprising!! Glad things worked out, you’re making me appreciate the show a lot more (I LOVED the first three episodes but then fell off it a bit, these make it appreciate it more)
I think you could argue that Marcus is the viewer put into the world. If we are being honest with ourselves, I think that's how most of us would be in the world of Arcane. A glory hound trying to prove ourselves and live up to the greatness of Piltover, driven by prejudice towards the Undercity. Not completely being a bad guy, just getting in way over our head and spiraling downwards until the end. I know we all like to think of ourselves as special, but in reality? I think, if we had to be honest, Marcus is how most of us would be if we were born in Piltover, unfortunately.
i don't think so, all character have pretty much the age they are supposed to have so there shouldn't be another considerable time skip, meaning she'll stay a kid forever
I think the best thing to do to fix Marcus within the scene while not robbing focus from Jinx would be to enhance the parallel to Grayson. Knowing the full picture, I would have him aim his gun at Silco during Grayson's death scene, but he doesn't pull the trigger which is the single worst thing he's done. Then when it comes to pointing the gun at Kaitlynn he refuses to pull the trigger again and this time it's the single best thing he's done.
I was sad they killed off Marcus, I thought they could have done SOMETHING more with him. Then I realised the reason he was killed off was so Caitlyn could become sheriff, and I’m unsure how I feel about that.
Before I even start watching this video I want to say: I love Marcus. After I saw the video I want to say: He might not be a great character, but he's very human. And I believe we are supposed to feel exactly that, because the animation does a LOT of facial expressions on him. A lot. I kept rewinding to see it all. There's something about it. He did a bad thing and that thing kept snowballing into worse and worse things that he was unable to escape from. I feel like this could be relatable to a lot of people. Not knowing any better, having opinions that you later find out were bad, effects of echo chambers or trusting bad people, making enormous mistakes. And then not resolving any of that, not letting him to do better, is like a punch to the guts. And I love it. Damn, I hate it.
Your reductive logic is simply to hide the fact you did not like him. That is subjective, as are most of your arguments. This entire season was "show do not tell" and Marcus, like all the other characters encompasses that perfectly. The fact that you do not like him should tell you something. Poorly written character engender apathy, not a 14 minute video with 28 minutes of narration compressed to fit in it.
Woah I disagree with everything you said. Though I'm not surprised as you contradict yourself plenty of times. Despite all that, it was good to see a video like that, made me laugh and proved once again how great Arcane is!
There is nothing to fix or add in Marcus' death scene on the bridge. Marcus' "mercy" for Vi (when he arrests her rather than let her be killed by Silco) and Caitlyn (when he knows if she comes back to Piltover she'll have proof that he's corrupt) is entirely motivated by the same thing that prevents him from pulling the pin on the grenade in Silco's office: his love for his daughter. He presumably witnesses Vander's death, and sees Vi and Jinx split apart, and cannot bring himself to kill her knowing he'd be killing somebody's daughter who has been freshly orphaned. Consider it a father's respect. He can't bring himself to shoot Caitlyn, because once again he is reminded of his own daughter and cannot bare the thought that Caitlyn's father would be as devastated as he would be given the same circumstance, which is fresh in his mind as Silco blackmailed him and tacitly threatened his own daughter so that Caitlyn/Vi wouldn't reach Piltover. If he pulls the trigger on Caitlyn, he's proving Silco right that he's a coward who can't martyr himself for a cause greater than himself. Thus, in the end, Marcus' death isn't as meaningless or tragic as it may seem, but rather his death, while unexpected and not intended by him, serves to allow him to martyr himself for a greater cause (Vi and Caitlyn reaching Piltover and exposing Silco). It is both a trivial death that highlights Jinx' in that moment transforming into the monster that Marcus always thought Zaunites were, and exists as the penalty for his reluctance to be proactive. Had he not hesitated to pull the trigger on Caitlyn and Vi and walk away, he may have lived to scheme another day, but left to forever live in fear of Silco's underhanded threats on his and his daughter's life. He changed his and other's fate by staying true to his character of hesitating when it mattered most, of being a coward who could do nothing to actively change anything.
Hi Schnee. Just wanted to pop in, a year late, to say I'm so grateful for these videos. Your keen mind for analysis is one of a kind, and I feel like I have to watch each video five times to get everything out that you put into them! Seriously, no one does story analysis as well as you do, and I'm hooked.
On the one hand I see what you're saying but I think this concept of "bad character" is reductionist. A good character doesn't have to be a good person. Marcus is an incredible asshole but is a great character. Because he is used effectively and I'd personally disagree about him being satisfying, compelling, and appealing. An asshole who is killed by the same force he helped unleash is just desserts and was very satisfying, not to mention how it relates to Jinx. A compelling character is someone who you want to see and find it difficult to pull your eyes away from. Idk about you but I was certainly compelled by his actions with the grenade, with his confrontations with Silco and his interactions with Vi and the others on the bridge. And appealing, personally I'd argue that this is the flat out wrong word. Evocative would be better, your judging on if the character makes you feel something. If they have moments to proform that show off who they are what they are about. And Marcus definitely does that.
I didn't say a good character has to be a good person, but I do appreciate the alternative definition you offered. My four characteristics are based on what I think can chiefly carry a character alone. I feel compelled by characters who are unnuanced but interesting in their characterization, or are unlikeable but have well developed arcs, or are uninteresting and have no arcs but are very likeable, etc. Even though independently Marcus can't stand on his own like the other characters can, Marcus served the story well, and I think you're right that the part he played ended up being more compelling from that vantage point.
@@schnee1 Marcus doesn't stand on his own, but he's not written to, either. He made a bad call that put him in a box. Everything that came after was this average man realizing his mistakes and trying to find a way out of them before the walls closed in, which never happened. He evokes plenty of emotions of regret and frustration, often used not just as a foil to Caitlyn, as you pointed out, but to anyone whose ideals are turned upside down once the veil of naivety is stripped away. That doesn't take away that you make a lot of good points in your video, but respectfully, I think you missed the point of his characterization and his role as a tragic support character being used as a sounding board to represent that sometimes you get into situations you simply can't get out from under, regardless of their ability to recognize their own faults. Too little, too late. It's the entire basis around why the character is empathized with.
@@LockeNarshe Schnee makes great videos with helpful writing advice but I feel like he often misses the point in a lot of his videos and also either over analyses and forces connections which aren’t there or under analyses/ doesn’t address certain things as well as I just don’t agree with some of his definitions and some opinions he presents in his videos just seem wrong e.g “Jinx being morally grey, is she a hero or villain?” (She’s clearly an obvious villain who just has sympathetic traits). Or his opinion that Mylo is insecure and takes it out Powder, as opposed to him clearly being the only one who spoke up about how Powder was weighing them down and faced no consequences because Vi was showing favouritism as her sister. But that’s fine I suppose he’s only one guy and it’s not like he’s the one correct authority on writing/ Arcane and it’s nice to have your own opinions and disagree sometimes.
When you started listing how Marcus and Caitlyn are opposites my jaw hit the floor. I never noticed these details and I never would have known such obvious things like that.
You have imo the best analysis videos on Arcane. Your editing, the pace, and the depth of analysis are all amazing, but my favorite is how you incorporate fundamentals of storytelling into your justifications. I feel like I learn something new with every video.
What is inspiring about your story is that just taking action from curiosity and inspiration enough times, the right pebble starts rolling down a mountain and pretty soon its a snowball that defines the course of your life. I'm not a writer and never think I will be, but I'm learning about human nature and by extension myself and my own motivations. Thank you for what you do. You're my favorite youtube channel and I'm so excited to follow your videos and your progress to create more amazing content
How do you find these things? This was extremely good, one of the characters I think of when Arcane comes to mind is Marcus. I never wondered why before this video but it's like you brought everything forthwith and just makes me love the show even more. PLEASE keep making these videos; the way you present them and then back them up with actual scenes and plot from the show just further bolsters my feelings for it. Your videos are incredible
I would love to see Marcus used as a way to develop his daughter's character. I would have used his death as the catalyst to push her to want to become an enforcer and do good. I would have her living with Caitlyn and her family out of some altruistic sense of obligation to Marcus. She would grow up idolizing Caitlyn who is now the sheriff and have her believing her father was just like Caitlyn, but Caitlyn not having the heart to tell her the truth. I would have loved it if her mother turns out to be Singed's daughter who like Viktor has some sort of terminal illness and was being experimented on by Singed with his "mutation" to keep her from dying. I would have Viktor help Singed using Hextech to bring her back in some sort of variation of his "glorious evolution." Which caused Marcus' hatred of Zaun; and he was using his relationship with Silco to get closer to Singed to enact some kind of revenge. In the end she find out her mother is alive as Orianna, but maybe has little to no memory of her due to the experimentation. Not sure if this would even make sense given Orianna's actual lore--maybe just my over active imagination running wild here.
Honestly I would see this as her maybe becoming an antagonist. Her fathers mentor died because of Zaun. Her father died because of Zaun. Someone who resents the undercity with all her heart.
@@Mediados You could have a James Potter situation where she (like Harry) sees her father as infallible because she never saw him for what he was because Marcus only ever acted morally and justly in her presence. And then as the story unravels, she's forced to confront the dichotomy of hatred (for Zaun) and love (for her father) that keeps her from seeing the truth, the big picture.
Absolutely love your analysis and style, fantastic videos, really well paced to get a fix of this deep dive into the story without over labouring points. I’ve got so much out of them, so much deeper understanding and makes me want to find this sort of thing for books and films I’ve watched many times and see what I’ve missed. Love it! Challenge: Keep going till season 2 hahaha
Your description of what makes Arcane's charters interesting is RELLY shallow and completely missing who the actual charters are for a reductive vison of there concept concept, you don't seem to know what your talking about
Love this video! Here’s a idea. Perhaps a different scene after the six Enforcers’ funeral. Marcus can glance at Greyson’s statue. Cut to him and his daughter, some time later, in front of it. His daughter can play a game of Enforcer vs Fissers (Undercoty people) with dolls since she’s waiting for her Dad. Marcus stares blatantly at them, maybe remembering his dirty deal that killed Greyson to end scene.
I think Marcus is crucial to show realism. He's not strong or smart, he lives a life with his child and he's not a good person. The fact that there's nothing interesting about him is what makes him interesting when compared against the main characters.
The way I viewed his death was more of a subversion. Marcus keeps trying to be a martyr and wants to do the right thing but he keeps failing, so the audience expects him to eventually make some big heroic sacrifice or save someone or anything, but he dies unceremoniously on the bridge. To me, the point was that if the show was more storybook Marcus would eventually do that, but it’s not. He passed up the opportunity to do good one too many times and so he dies unredeemed. He doesn’t deserve or get some big moment of redemption, because in real-life that doesn’t happen.
The part that makes me think is when Marcus grabs Vi at the end of ep3 and says "if he sees you he'll kill you", but then takes her to jail. After the time skip, we see a change in Marcus. He's less of a villain and more of a hostage. Stuck in a situation he has no control over. I think his character arch is very subtly play, because we do see a morality struggle build in his character, but he's buried so deep he can't get out. So now I see him more as another victim of the system, but also much more that I don't have time to get into bc I'm m driving to work
You came just in time, a lot of the early content about Arcane is drawn out and not really elucidating anything about the story. I respect a lot that there's a linear correlation between how long your videos are and how much it makes me think about the show in a new way. The information is delivered quickly and succinctly without filler, love it. That's why people keep coming back :)
Marcus is definitely one of my favorite characters in the show, he's not a bad character. You just keep saying he's uncompelling or uninteresting but you didn't really give anything convincing as to why he isn't. You gave examples of other character archetypes, but even those can be uninteresting as well. You can't always be original, and characters will always follow tropes, and even if a trope is common or overused, it doesn't matter where and in what medium they're used. It matter how well they're written. You might feel like Marcus is uninteresting, but that is personal to you; he's not bad. He's incredibly well written up until his tragic ending.
8 likes for this? - a shooting match calling the other side's views subjective - I lose faith in humanity sometimes. He argued his point. What you actually disagree with is what defines a well written character. He thinks originality is a requirement, you don't. I think tropes are sometimes fine but often harmful, hence the rule of thumb exists. Why "fine sometimes"? - Tropes are an efficient shortcut that conveys information by relying on things the audience already knows. This allows you to tell more compact stories and makes it easier to get across meaning/plot etc, example: "it rains during a sad scene while sad music plays" is cliche but gets the point across quickly and there is more room for other things, Why "often Harmful"? - It is near impossible to get immersed in a story when constantly reminded of other similar stories that also did the same trope but better. The take away here is that you grow to hate tropes and cliches the more you watch and the older you get, young people don't mind them because they haven't seen enough to get distracted by them. Other perspective on this also exists, and I welcome them, I want them! but it's so hard to find them when people just creates sides. Super depressing.
@@wanderingwatcher3981 Yea, I would definitely disagree with the idea that a well written character means they have to be original. That standard kind of sucks because storytelling is incredibly derivative, most stories follow established tropes in one way or another if you boil it down. From what you're saying, you just sound like you, and people who have listened to alot of stories (everyone literally has), have a fairly high bar when it comes to suspension of disbelief, and if anything seems familiar to you or them, it automatically takes you out of the story, which honestly I have a hard time believing. I think if you find stories, that has tropes and elements you enjoy that are executed well in the story, it doesn't matter if they're original, you'll still find enjoyment out of them. An original character does not always mean a well written character, and an unoriginal character does not always mean a poorly written character. It's all about execution.
@@Tripleat117 I agree with everything you are saying. It doesn't matter if you are combining known elements in a creative way or using new elements, both can create compelling stories. I'd actually go further and say that people tend to prefer a new mix of "ingredients" they already like over alien experiences. Safer, somewhat nostalgic and more relevant to current topics. However, I think there is more to it. I think Arcane's writing is outstanding because it takes elements or agendas we have grown tired of and puts them in a new perspective, moving the public discussion forward. I still remember how I was on guard with Vi at the start until she was the only one out of the gang losing in the slow-mo brawl. Sure, she's an unrealistic character (hate to say it but females suck at fist fighting) but the trope isn't left there, it's expanded upon, it's integrated with other elements of her personality in a way that actually makes a lot of sense for a female character, I think this makes all the difference, it justifies suspending disbelief. In a vacuum I hate "females can be fighters too", but enjoy it if used with thought together with other elements to create a compelling character. Many of my all time favorite characters are female fighters (nuanced perspectives and unique challenges) so it really is all about the execution. So, it's not about the trope itself. It's when it's used raw I think it's bad. It is bad in the same way showing the exact same scene over and over doesn't create a good movie. The movie here is my personal journey absorbing different perspectives and stories. New stimulation is why I watch. I've already processed the trope in it's most basic form and so get nothing more out of seeing it again. Sure, if it was something I enjoyed or learned something from I will still get some nostalgic enjoyment out of it, respect it and maybe even comfort watch. But it´ll never have me praise it's writing. Arcane consistently goes the extra mile with it's tropes, never leaving them at face value and I think that more then anything else is the secret sauce behind it's acclaim. All things you could get hung up on have been expanded upon or fixed compared to it's basic overdone form. It's so consistent across the entire show I'd be shocked if it wasn't a guiding principle for the project. The only people I've meet having (valid) issues with the show have been those unable to get much out of it. For example old folk, less adapt at juggling multiple locations/characters, unable to pick up on nuance in action and fast cuts, etc.
Something I wondered about when you were talking about his daughter is that maybe she's going to be used in later seasons? I don't know if it's something the writers really care about, but it would certainly be interesting to see a kind of parallel to Vi and Powders parents death on the bridge but with a child from Piltover. Probably not in a big role, because the Piltover vs Zuan arc's are meant to mostly rap up by the end of season 2, but a little scene where we see how she's sad about her fathers death. Or maybe she could come back in later seasons. Mostly likely we won't see her again but she would be a good tool for the writers to think about using.
At first Marcus was bad, but he came to learn, to understand. He became so much more human to me. He started respecting Grayson, who he had no respect for, because he finally understood. He was not noble enough to "be a beacon of hope", but he still was a symbol as head of the enforcers. Even then though, it feels like everything he did, he did only for his daughter. Trying to make something right not for himself, but for her. When he felt down he went to her, he was hopeful, and glad, then he saw Silco and: paralyzed. She was his all. It felt that way when I saw him and his daughter. Marcus saw her as the one and only good thing in his life full of wrongs. Which also makes his last words to me at least, all the more heartbreaking, because not even that came out right.
Really interesting video! You should make a video on what you think the logical conclusion for Vi and Jinx's arc is. I've seen arguments for vi killing jinx, jinx killing vi, them both dying, them reconciling, etc. Personally, I think that having them reconcile, at least in some way, seems to make the most sense. They seem to be parallels of Vander and Silco, and we all know how that one ended. It would make sense for them to somehow learn from Vander and Silco and find a way to make up, though I do see that with jinx in her current state, that would still be hard. But it just makes sense from a character perspective for Vi as well, seeing as her arc is probably learning to not solve everything with her fists? I would love to know what you think!
I think it is possible for them to reconcile. They both get too emotional. Strong emotions cloud just judgement. Jinx need a stoic person in her life who would serv as therapist and mediator. I think Blitzcrank could perform this role.
I think Marcus's story is fairly interesting and fairly nuanced with the fact that he is trying to protect his kid and he doesn't know what choice to make. The character himself not a whole lot most of his interestingness comes from his story of protecting his kid
I liked Marcus, from when we first met him he wasn't hesitant, he was confident in his hate, his speech, his arrogance but as we watched he started second guessing himself, getting nervous and unsure of his actions. I can understand the "good" and "bad" character writing discussion but I also believe your video shows in the end of the day he fits in the good category. My reasoning is that I don't believe he needed to be special to be a "good" character. We as people do not all stand out and at the end of the day we can be fairly one track minded, from believing propaganda to developing prejudice based on said propaganda, I think Marcus as a character showed that well. If you isolate the character you're taking him away from the story and that would be taking him away from his very purpose, he is a character meant to build onto the story as you showed in the video. He's also the face of the enforcers as a whole where Caitlyn seems to be a minority if not the last enforcer who sees people as equals. Just watching this character I can picture a normal person going through his life choices. His whole work life is chaotic but then he also is a single father where that alone puts in my mind that his personal life is chaotic too. At the end of the day he is completely outshined by the rest of the colorful and interesting cast of characters but that's a tough bar to reach especially when he was never meant to be anything more than average. Also don't know if you read any of this but I love your video, the way you explain them is fantastic and it's all very thought provoking for me. I hope you continue I'm excited to see how far you go
What about this: Marcus can't shoot Caitlyn because she's a Kiramman. At this point, at least in his mind I think he's fine as far as his job goes. He held up the blockade at the bridge, he did everything Jayce asked him to, he shot an firelight member (leader), doesn't matter because his plan is to blame the firelights on all the terrorism anyways. And he doesn't know Jinx is coming yet. Ofcourse, even holding a gun to Caitlyn will get him fired on Cassandra's and Jayce's behalf, as both councilors have been shown to want to protect her at all costs. But he doesn't necessarily realise that. However, SHOOTING a kiramman? That will get him executed, imprisoned, expelled, whatever the worst punishment is that Piltover has. At that point, he will have done the same thing as he would have with the explosive in Silco's office, but for a far less righteous cause: he would have effectively made Ren an orphan.
really interesting take on him! i don't think that he's a bad character as in poorly written, he's just flat. stories need flat underdeveloped side characters too. they have their purposes; not every side character can be as rounded as a main character. but i like how you highlighted the significance he has in the show as a foil
You say he's a bad character but what you really mean in the video is that he's shallow. Nothing that he does contradicts who he is as a character, and not every character in a story needs to be or even should be complex. Some people are motivated by simple predictable things, that doesn't make them worse people any more than a character motivated by simple, predictable things makes them a bad character. The best argument you brought up for him being a bad character was his decision to not shoot Caitlyn but I think that decision is just a result of his guilt/regret for being a bad cop while Caitlyn has been trying to be a good cop. Emotions aren't always the most logical thing, so him feeling hesitant to blast her in cold blood isn't anything out of the ordinary. It's not like we've been shown he's a ruthless killer earlier in the show. On the contrary, we see that he's pretty cowardly, shying away from any conflict that might cause him problems in the short term (resulting in his long term demise). Yes he's a bully to the people of Zaun, but again he's not a murderer, and Caitlyn isn't from Zaun anyways. Bad title and misuse of terminology, but overall the premise and video were good. 8/10
I love all of the points you make, but I do have to disagree with something. I don't see Marcus as a bad character. I see him as an extremely flawed person, but also a very real one.
I.... disagree. Marcus has more than enough nuance to his character and it's pretty damn obvious. How anyone could come to this conclusion about him, I have no idea.
These character analyses always let me see arcane in a new way. They show how deep and complex some of these characters are or how they fit into the story and I think there are still more unappreciated ones like Singed (the doctor) wich havent got any attention yet.
Marcus' daughters possible age matches with the duration of the time skip. So maybe his wife had died in a childbirth around the same time he was first introduced, explaining his constant rage and impulsivity.
The way I interpreted Marcus being unable to shoot Caitlyn is sorta as a whole embodiment of his situation. He shoots Caitlyn, and then what? She's a councilors daughter and the Kiraman family would 100% investigate her death, even privately if so. Not to mention Jayce knows, or has a hunch, that Marcus is corrupt. So he can't shoot her. But at the same time, he can't let her go, because of Silco's explicit order and his threat against his daughter. So he can't let her go. In the end he was trapped in a situation of his own making. Jinx had to swoop in and "resolve" his indecision; his fate once again determined by others hands rather than his own.
I liked the fact that they didnt do a redemption arc for Marcus. It's so common to see redemption arc's for bad guy's in today's media. It's refreshing to see a guy with good intentions, but bad actions, die disgraced, unable to undo his mess. Because it's just so real. We usually do something bad and then are unable to undo it.
Absolutely, because in reality people who deal with such shady business don't tend to have very happy ending.
@@Mediados couldn't have said it better myself.
It's just a beautiful punch to the guts not letting him have a redemption arc
@@materla4102 oh yes. When he suddenly died on that bridge, my jaw just smashed into the ground.
@@michabuksalewicz8907 Though you did.
It's a realistic and fresh perspective on the archetype of the "currupted cop". Not a cruel man who doesn't care and only wants money; but a conflicted man who couldn't repair the mistakes of his young hot-headed self and that can't just run away from them for the sake of his daughter.
nah, that's been overused, but he's still decent
he's decent character in the story because he doesn't right any of his wrongs. he just dies and that makes him more real. his arc was being a piece of shit who didn't have the guts to do the right thing or even the guts to commit fully to being evil and finally got killed for it. he's died a good death. i don't think i was alone when i thought fuck you marcus but also pity for him when he died.
@@cheesypizzajokes overused? care to give examples that shows its overused?
I always felt Marcus was a very tragic supporting character. We watch him go from a cocky bastard to a man who's honest to god trying his best to fill Grayson's shoes and play the same role she did in trying to keep the peace between the upper and lower cities, but he was dealt such a rotten hand in that Silco was a much, much worse man to be making deals with while Vander and Grayson at least had some kind of tangible mutual respect for each other and actually had the same goals. They were more diplomatic with each other. Meanwhile Marcus later thinks he's playing the same role but instead he's being used more than anything. Even though he's a "weak" character he felt just as real, if not more so in some ways, as the rest of the starring cast. He was just a very average man with nothing truly grounding him until he had a daughter and then he was just trying his best with her basically being the only thing keeping him going to the very end. He was just too cornered and misguided along the way.
very good points!
That's exactly how I feel about Marcus too. He's a pretty mundane character. I don't like him but I feel bad for him and he feels ridiculously realistic.
@@emma2884
And let’s be honest. Most of us are probably a lot more like Marcus than any of the other main characters. Just blindly going through life, reacting to the actions of those around us and hiding from our shortcomings until we are inevitably buried under the weight of our failures.
You captured his character so well, as unremarkable as he was you cant help to feel for him and his short-comings, his character feels so real and i was deeply saddened by his death and unresolved life and character arc
Coming out of the show, Marcus was my favorite character. I don't think he had enough time to grow, and it was clear he respected Grayson a lot. I think he made deals with Silco only because he watched her make deals with Vander. He definitely did feel real, his mistakes were real, his fears were real, his regrets were real, and I think that's why I liked him so much. We know a lot of these characters have plot armor, they're fantastical and near-inhuman. Vi, Jayce, Ekko, Jinx are all duking it out with blades, guns, and explosions but you know they'll be fine. I feel like Marcus grounded the world of Arcane showing that topside was not all roses and sunshine. A part of me wishes he didn't die, but I also loved how he went out. I think his abrupt and unceremonious death was just the perfect cap to his well-meaning unremarkable tragedy.
I think that Marcus is just the perfect embodiment of the "show don't tell" philosophy with regards to SHOWING the average perception of someone from Piltover towards someone from Zaun. I think you'd believably imagine that many people in Piltover would behave and think in much the same way as him, and Marcus is just our on-screen representation of that. He doesn't need to be anything more than that for the sake of the story and that's okay (and he's still a very believable and human character because frankly some people are just as bigoted and one-dimensional as Marcus is in the real world). But your point about him being a foil to Caitlyn perfectly captures why I don't think he needed to be anything more than exactly what he was in the show, because he allowed us to understand what makes Caitlyn DIFFERENT.
I can respect Marcus being a foil for Caitlyn but he is far from perfect. If the writers decide to introduce Camille in season 2 (and I have a hard time seeing why the wouldn't because thematically her backstory plays well with both Viktor and Jinx's progression) you'll see how flawed Marcus was designed in this story.
@@mutantmagnet And honestly when Camille does Show up it'll make Marcus's whole existence pointless because she already fulfills everything he does but better.
@@badconnection4383 But Camille is not in season 1, after all the creators of this show couldn’t know if it would be successful or not. So they needed to represent Piltover’s views is S1.
@@petrorlov2599 Camille will do that better when she shows up. Marcus is a representation of surface level bigotry, while Camille is a representation of bigotry by system.
@@badconnection4383 Sure, but they need that representation NOW. Not in S2.
He didn't start as a corrupt cop. He started as a mean and over zealous cop. Grayson wasn't dealing with the robbery, which was frustrating him, he couldn't understand why. This put him on the mindset to be easily manipulated by Silco.
Exactly. He starts as a self-righteous, but not corrupt, cop.
And he doesn't understand why Grayson compromises with Vander.
Then he ends up in a position where he has to compromise with Silco, in a worst deal than Grayson ever had with Vander.
And he knows it's his fault.
Wait a sec that's a parallel there. Grayson wasn't dealing with the robbery because she and vander had a deal and she could not break the deal. vander wasn't ready to give up the robbers because they were his children. Now after act 1, there's an explosion that Marcus isn't dealing with because he has a deal with Silco. and silco isn't ready to give up jinx because she is his daughter.
not really related to the video but that seemed interesting
He was also unable to see the bigger picture. It also seemed that he was brainwashed as a kid to hate the people of zaun, which carried on to his adulthood, and still kept that narrow mindedness until his last breath.
@jugemujugemugokonosurikire4735 I think he had started getting over that, he now hated silco and silco's crew, as opposed to anyone from the undercity - otherwise I think he would have be3n less resistant to throwing echo under bus.
TBH Marcus is >85% of the people who happen to get stuck between great powers. Don't fool yourself into believing that you are "the One" who can ressist and push back in such a situation. When faced with the possibility of losing the most precious in your life it is HIGHLY LIKELY that you will buckle and bend.
Yeah, calling him unnuanced is a little uncharitible. He's a guy who knows he's not doing the right thing but doesn't have the strength to stand up, who has to much to lose. That's already way more nuanced than just some corrupt asshole cop
Now THIS is the most realistic interpretation I have seen so far.
This is exactly why I like Marcus so much, he's one of the most realistic and relatable character in the series even if most don't realize (or want to realize).
Completely agree. My friends hated Marcus's guts, but I saw him as just some guy also in a terrible situation, trying to make do.
That’s nihilistic cowardice. Maybe you can’t, maybe you can. But either way You have to try.
Silco, Vander, Markus, Benzo...
Arcane is the show of loving single father figures.
As a single father raising my daughter... I absolutely love this! It's so different than the usual portrayal.
I didn't think of Benzo in that category, but you're absolutely right! That's interesting! I def want to make a video on Arcane's parent/child relationships, lots to say on that
@@schnee1
I'd watch it.
Damn arcane mothers really losing in comparison
@@RonquixoteDIII None of the dads really get happy endings either though lol
@@rsullivan6738 Damn lol. _😭_
Am I the only one who liked the fact that Marcus failed constantly/ was a screw up? To me it felt like his character humanized the setting( irl there are always those people who try to do the good thing but keep failing nonetheless.) as well as making the success of other characters feel that much more earned and suspenseful as we can see that some characters might not succeed.
No, you are not it was really neat to watch.
I agree, I think they are like one of few other tragic characters that ran out of chances to redeem themselves, and I think its okay because again, just like the other viewers has commented... some plot stuff would not be possible without Marcus's involvement.
They are bound to fail again and again in order to have surviving characters' growth come true.
...
In real life this is also true, there are people that died because they never had the chance to change their habits, or that they are that unfortunate to not have much second or more chances in life.
I worry about the likes of CWC for how the society they are in, is failing them, back then and up until now I think that they are in the jail.... As if they are bound to not develop into a more likeable person because they are in an awful set of circumstances (e.g., that Chris is in the spectrum, their parents entrusted the growth of their child to the electronics, Chris kept on responding to their trolls, and the professionals around them failed to help Chris become a more functioning healthy grownup.)
Unfortunate people like CWC has served me a reason to change my habits. Their inactions and its consequences to their life has served as a warning, that if you kept on ignoring the details in your life experiences, you may end up in a more miserable position, and in the end it could cause you your last chance to become a redeemable person. I may or may not be in the spectrum too, but these people had it worse than me, and I feel like not ending up like Marcus.
He's kinda like Jinx in the "trying to do good, but everything ends up bad"
I think one of the best things about Marcus is he represents the more average characters in the show, he's not a league character, he's not destined to eventually become one of the main characters everyone knows people like Vi, Jayce, Jinx, etc. will become. the scene where Silco is planting evidence in the show and Marcus has the urge to sacrifice himself to kill Silco is a great example, he clearly wants to do good, he's realized what Greyson did for the balance of things, in his eyes his former boss has turned from someone he looked down on for sinking to dealing with the undercity, to someone he understood what she was accomplishing. And I think the only thing that holds him back from that is the fear of endangering his daughter, he has the realities of an average person, he has people who rely on him and reasons he can't just throw caution to the wind like alot of other characters in the show. Silco clearly knows this and in the same scene mocks him for it with the whole, "Imagining yourself a hero? one final act to make you the martyr you've always seen yourself as?" line, Silco knows that if he didn't have something over Marcus he wouldn't be going along with his shit anymore he'd most likely choose to martyr himself in an attempt to make up for his role in all this, but he does, and he knows how to put pressure on it.
I wouldn't necessarily say he's a bad character. He is a supporting character. Not every character can be a main character, and he is used to build up those around him. If a main character had the same depth as Marcus, then that would be a bad character. But Marcus is not a main character, he is just a side character who doesn't even show up in the intro.
I agree with you, but even Arcane's supporting characters have more depth and nuance. Ekko has much less screentime than Marcus, but he's interesting and likeable has an arc that begins and ends satisfactorily in a single episode. Even the characters without arcs like Grayson, Ambessa, and Singed are so well designed that they draw us in with their uniqueness.
@@schnee1 To be clear, I do think that Marcus is a side character and doesn't have much depth to him in comparison to the major players. But I want to give some credit to Marcus and say that he is not entirely without interest. Marcus is probably the most human character. You have all these larger-than-life League Champions running the show, and then you have this little man Marcus getting caught up in the crossfire, trying to survive the consequences of his errors. To me the most interesting part of Marcus was his end. He had no redemption, no hero's moment. He couldn't even finish his final words. Sometimes in life, there is no out, and it really struck me during the bridge scene. I very much expected a redemption from Marcus, because there's always a redemption. But there wasn't for Marcus.
BTW, another great analysis schnee. Keep em coming. :P
@@wpelfeta I never thought of it like that but - yes - you're absolutely right and that fits perfectly into how the show kept on subverting my expectations based on my experience with most other shows, books, games and media in general.
Like how Silco at first very much looks like your stereotypical villain in episode one and it's only with episode 3 and onwards that his other layers are starting to show. Same with Mel Medarda. They don't exactly hide her true motivations but they also don't go out of their way to show them either. It's only within the second half of the show that we're slowly seeing that there's more to her than that.
I'd describe him more as a weak/uncompelling character than a bad one. He's a supporting antagonist and he fulfills the role he was made for extremely well, and even then we get a full sense of his motivations (without having to like or even sympathize with him).
@@schnee1 Marcus starts out as a vicious, intolerant, plotting, and power hungry young man because he believes power creates justice. Instead he becomes a party to corruption far worse than what existed and he maintains a dreadful status quo because the alternatives are far worse. Yes, Silico could murder his daughter, but seldomly does anything good come from the chaos of a power vacuum. He realizes the errors of his ways after he's too far in and becomes trapped by his actions. He's forced to live in violation of his own ideals because he grossly misinterpreted the world he lived in.
Arcane's story telling is economical in use of scenes. Marcus exists strictly as a foil and anytime spent fleshing him out takes away from the main cast.
The arcs of Ekko, Ambessa and Singed are just beginning and were more limited in scope.
Marcus is neither a bad character or an underdeveloped character. He's unlikable and unrelatable because there isn't time to flesh out his flawed characters traits and make them understandable, he is only as developed as he needs to be.
I feel kind of bad for Marcus to be honest. He brought it on himself - I know he did, but since when he made the deal, he was likely a new parent with a baby, and he probably just wanted the aclaim or a bonus to get nice stuff for her then it put him in a hole he couldn't get out of... I'm not a fan of him, but I can't help but feel somewhat sorry for him.
I was thinking that too about how his daughter must have just been born or on the way when he made the deal -- makes the Silco playtime scene more chilling for sure! I wondered if that also might have been why he decided to save Vi, since he saw her losing her parent, which was his ultimate fear for his own daughter. Man I gotta make a video about all the parent-child relationships already...
@@schnee1 please do make a parent child relationship video, i love your essays ^^
@@schnee1 Its honestly sad to think about. Especially considering when he rose to become the Sheriff they probably twisted his arm more than he probably expected them to - he expected it to be a one time thing, he didn't even expect Grayson to be killed. It makes me wonder if he planned on Vander being killed and his children orphaned - as "plans change." Perhaps the despair from young Vi and seeing how the loss of a parent affected a child firsthand really fueled his drive to not leave his child alone. Plus how in his last moments, when he asks them to tell his daughter that he loves her... it's kind of a tragic-not-quite-villian thing. Dunno, think I'm rambling now lmao, but yes!! Videos from you are always a delight. You should definitely do it. 👀
I feel Bad for him too. He tried to do the best for his child. He did many things wrong that's what is undeniable... But in the end he was a human being trying to do what is in his force to do the best for his child. I hate his attitude... But the series made feel everything in it so real that I show humanity for him and especially for his child which has to live without father now.
@@Lusor_Caterpillar Agreed. Amazing how a show can make you sympathize with a.. less than likeable character lmao. It's honestly rather tragic - I hope his daughter will end up alright.
I also wonder what happened to her mother.. If we see her at all in S2 again, I'd be interested in learning more about her - even if she's such a minor character.
I actually like Marcus, he was one of the driving force in the show.
If you removed Marcus in the story so many things change. Grayson (I forgot the spelling), benzo, claggor, milo and Vander will be alive.
Powder wouldn't need to create his monkey bomb to help vi and crew.
Vi, milo and claggor wouldn't have needed to help vander.
I think he's character is very realistic and genuine.
In story writing context yes that is true that he character might be unappealing.
But Arcane does have an emphasis on how real the character feels. Like they are actually human.
So, I honestly don't see any flaws in Marcus character because that's the way he is.
If he is changed ever so slightly the entire plot would have changed.
If he wanted his daughter to live a better life then we will find silco dead before jinx can ever kill him.
And so on. Not all of the weakest character is a bad character.
Sometimes we need a weak character to move the plot forward to enhance and enrich character development.
We need a contrasting force so we can have someone we can hate or dislike or something similar.
There are other stuff as well.
Right? I disagree that he was poorly written.
I agree. Without Marcus, Vi may have been killed by Silco too. It's a complicated story and I love it.
Idk I disagree on a lot of those, especially the first few. Marcus being an arrogant dumb ass wouldnt change what Grayson said, Pilover demanded a sacrifical lamb. Vi still wouldve tried to contact Grayson, Vader would still try to swap places, so Grayson and Vader would be there to pick him up, and Silco couldve went on with his plan, and hed know of enforcers movements through his other informants. So everything up to Vi being put in jail by him wouldve been the same. We see how much people despise Zaun, through the council and other enforcers.
And over all tbh, I dont mind using a bad character as a prop, which is what he is, what did annoy me was the inclusion of his daughter, and trying to buy him some simpathy. Especially when the topic of daughters causing us pain is already kinda too much in the overall story.
@@BambiLena666 you may have a point I honestly don't know all of the things in the story of arcane.
But the thing there is timing.
Marcus was in the right place in the right time or wrong place in the wrong time. If he wasn't there, Vi would have charged in to save powder. Marcus took Vi because he was worried that Silco would kill her too, in the line "He might kill you too if he hears you". Marcus Night have a different intention, but the timing was perfect!
Yes, Piltover hates the lanes and would still have tried to take them away but a completely different story would have unfold.
1st Vi and Jinx could have been reunited without Marcus intervention. Which would have never let powder to become jinx in the first place.
2nd Vi or Jinx or both could have gotten hurt or died because of Silco and his goons. Well that's self explanatory.
Also Marcus made a deal with Silco, I might be mistaken by what that deal is but with the context given it is relating to Vander and Grayson. With the line " this isn't part of the deal".
But that is true even without Marcus Silco could have still gotten Vander and killed Grayson because Vander will still swp places with Vi.
And yes Silco's informant can spoof the enforcers. But that is a very high liability and a massive risk to silco.
With Marcus it's killing two birds with one stone getting Grayson into the lanes and knowing that Vander will be there.
Which means without Marcus silco needs to make sure Grayson goes down into the lane and figure out where van der will be going.
Plus Marcus is the informant, without him Silco's timing might be off. He needs to rely in the shadow instead of an inside man than can feed him the info from the direct source.
Plus I do believe the big reason Vi wanted to surrender herself because of Marcus and his enforcers almost finding powder and the gang. I might be wrong with the last part.
It's not that Marcus is not an essential character just his arc is poorly written or even absent. In the series we don't feel empathy for him at all, his thread with his daughter is boring and unnecessary because it doesn't lead to anything. The supporting character should not only be a tool and a contrast to the rest of the characters. Marcus in Arcane was needed, but the potential to show his internal conflict wasn't used.
Marcus is the most real character. None of us is Vi or Jayce, even if we like to believe it. We all are weak when out of our waters, we are all manipulated, we all can't escape the role society has uppon us and when we try we get destroyed. I was deeply moved by him, because I would be that character and that's why I felt he was compelling. A small man trapped between great forces.
Hey pal, speak for yourself. I'm Him. 🗿😆
that's exactly what i felt with Marcus.
yep
Jayce?? I think u meant Caitlyn😅
nah speak for yourself lmfao
I think the Marcus being unable to shot Cait scene could be compared to how Jinx looks away from the people she shoots them, to show how detached she is from reality.
Marcus seems to realise the weight of taking a life, while Jinx detaches herself from that weight.
My take on Marcus' character is that he always wants to do the right thing but keeps pushing it off. He always tries to pivot or delay or hide instead convincing himself that he still has time to do the right thing. The character arc seems to head towards that maybe he will have redemption. But time ran out. He died before he could ever realize that character arc. And that's realistic. If you keep on pushing things off, your time might end abruptly without you ever having gotten close to accomplishing them.
I don't see it as him pivoting, delaying or hiding, necessarily, but rather constantly searching for a way out and having to bide his time until he could, which never came. It's similar to what you said, but comes at your endpoint from a different starting perspective. Sometimes the devil is in details. You're suggesting he was okay with all the bad things he was doing, thinking there'd be time to eventually fix it. What I saw was a man who knew the walls were closing in after he'd realized the error of his ways, but just couldn't find a way out before they did.
The way I interpreted the 'martyr' line from Silco is that Marcus took over Graysons role as the mediator with the undercity. Yes, Silco is much worse than Vander, but I think that Marcus just sees it as his job to keep the peace between Piltover and Zaun in whatever way he can. That relationship is obviously skewed in Silco's favour and Marcus isn't strong enough to actually stand up to him in any significant way. Marcus is stuck, and he has to tell himself that he is continuing Graysons legacy in order to live with what he did. He convinces himself that he is sacrificing his honour for this necessary evil.
That is how I see it, and it fits that Silco calls him out for it.
I think the most tragic part about Marcus is that he was SO CLOSE to making things right. If he had pulled the grenade pin in Silco's office, he would have fixed everything. Silco would have died, Shimmer likely would have went away, Jinx wouldn't have been injured and revived with Shimmer, and he would have died a hero. Yes, his daughter would be left without a father, but he would have went out in a blaze of glory that saved both Piltover and Zaun.
But that isn't what happened. Because Marcus isn't a hero. He's just a guy trying his best to live up to impossible standards he has no chance of meeting. He's terrified of leaving his daughter, the one person who idolizes him, just like Grayson left him. Marcus may be the most "average" character in the whole show, and unfortunately it isn't the average people who can make the kind of decision that would have saved everyone.
I'm glad he didn't pass the baton to Caitlyn because it isn't a baton that should be passed. A person who compromises their beliefs to save their own skin, puts on a lie to the people they care about, and aren't willing to make the tough decision for the sake of others isn't the kind of sheriff Piltover needs, and it isn't the kind of person Caitlyn is. So in the end, Marcus died the way he lived: all for nothing.
Jinx was sitting above them though and the grenades have a timer. So even IF he did pull the pin, he would get shot by Jinx and they would duck for cover before it could do any real harm.
Would the grenade save everyone? I don’t think so as someone else would have taken over Silco’s position in the power vacuum. It could have made things worse
@@aksjhdbaksjhdbNotASpam The explosive has a wide range and they're in a small office, there would be nowhere to hide and Jinx would have simply died with them
Marcus is such an underrated character.
He's uninteresting, weak, and unsympathetic. Yet, he's an incredibly realistic character. He's a man doing shitty things, for good intentions. And, he fucks up every single step of the way. He's a man who wants to do his damn job well, keep his loved one safe, and save the city he lives in. And he fails. At every damn thing.
That's the really realistic and relatable thing about him. He fails. We all do.
And I kinda felt the same way he did when my life wasn't going too well. I've felt like I was doing shitty things for what I thought were good reasons. And I wanted to end it. And I think some others here may have felt the same at some point.
Not all characters have to be strong, good, or interesting. Sometimes they just have to be relatable. Marcus is that kind of character.
Great analysis. Though I think you missed a parallel Marcus has with another character: Grayson. In the past, he couldn't understand why Grayson would deal with Vander, a prolific de facto leader of the undercity. He had a simplistic dualistic view (Piltover = good. Undercity = thrash). Grayson did so because her experience has thought her that the alternative (war) would be catastrophic, so she aligns herself with "necessary evil", but a benign one in Vander. Eventually, Marcus find himself taking the same deal/be in the same position, however with an objectively worse undercity leader in Silco.
His scene at Grayson's grave shows his Arc: he now sees the complexities in relationship between Piltover and Undercity that Grayson had to play, and now he knows he's playing the same game, but he's objectively much worse at it. He used to scorn her part in it, but now finding himself trapped, he empathizes with Grayson. Moreover, he now RESPECTS her even more precisely because he's in a similar but worse situation, playing with the worse "devil". Even in his death, he dies similarly to Grayson: a victim of Silco's influence and machinations.
Interestingly, Grayson serves as an Enforcer mentor figure for both Caitlyn and Marcus. Caitlyn was inspired by Grayson to become an Enforcer in the first place, while Marcus models his captainship after hers. Grayson served as the ideal for both these characters that saw her differently. Ironically yet fittingly, they both fell on opposite ends of Enforcer's code of justice. This enforces the parallel opposite nature of Marcus vs Caitlyn but with Grayson as the lynchpin between them.
FANTASTIC points! I wish I had remembered the Grayson/Caitlyn scene especially! Since I posted this vid, I've actually been thinking a lot about Marcus' relationship with Grayson, and your comment helped me understand it a lot better. It's like his willingness to work with Silco was his clunky Marcus-brain understanding of what Grayson was doing with Vander, because to him Vander and Silco were "all the same". But with Vander's death, he realized that Silco was leagues worse than Vander (which is possibly why he decided to save Vi too).
Interesting too that if Marcus HAD killed Caitlyn, then he would have essentially been playing Deckard's role in Grayson's fate. Maybe that's another reason why he couldn't do it. Man, now I gotta make Marcus part 2 lol...
@@schnee1 i'm rooting for part 2 :D
@@schnee1 it’s been two years 😢
I was going to say how human Marcus was in the show and how that made him a very appealing character to me, but there are surprisingly many other comments saying exactly that! Glad to know others see that too.
This guy don't deserve to be called human, I thought that he could become good when he dropped silco's payment on the ground, but since this fuckhead continued to work for him, I am pretty sure that he went on his knees to grab the coins 5 minutes after. He could also just save Vi because he felt guilty for the death of Vander but nooooooo, he wanted that promotion now that he have the person to blame for the heist and that the sheriff died on his fault. I would say to his daughter "good riddance".
@@leonurbach6841 You completely missed the point then. You're almost definitely more similar to Marcus than any of the show's other characters, it's just hard to admit your own mistakes.
@@leonurbach6841 how can you just... make so many objectively wrong statements? Like actually i hope you've come around by now
@@danielwoods3896 did he admitted his mistakes when he shot a fucking kid ? Is it a mistake to hate a such a morally wrong an egoistic character? The fact that his daughter is threatened by Silco is the result of his choices. Nothing to save for him, or please explain me guys, because I really cannot find anything good in him.
@@leonurbach6841you're saying it like "human" is some sort of status..
I personally dont think a character being unappealing equals them being a bad character when they are clearly fulfilling a role in the story and to other characters while ALSO being a realistic person that doesnt come across as artificial. Hes not as spectacular as the others but he is a person who made decisions that lead him to every point of his life that we saw and we saw him hate it but not be strong enough to get out of the cycle either cause he cared for someone else more. I dont think they did anything wrong with his character and I dont think he is a flaw. He is exactly as he should be.
I actually found Marcus really interesting. He's weak and puts his own personal interests before helping the people of the Undercity and Piltover alike, but he's self aware of his weaknesses. He wishes he could be the hero he should be, he knows what he needs to do to make it right but his daughter and his own selfishness stops him.
Almost like Marcus is Piltover boiled into a character, particularly the council. The council knows the issues with the undercity, but they are too weak and too selfish to act. Putting their own self interests above what needs to be done.
Marcus fails to act in time and this gets him killed.
Much like the council fails to act in time and going by the end of season 1, this will get a lot of them killed.
There's something to be said about a character who fails to achieve what you were hoping they would.
I’m super happy you decided to make videos about Arcane. I’m jealous & inspired by your work as a fellow creator. I hope you continue to find success.
Ad astra per aspera
its not that deep
@@chadurena6356 but I'm deep in your mom *GOT EM*
Marcus being uninteresting and underdeveloped is NOT a bad thing. The way I see it Marcus is just NORMAL, in a world full of such massive characters he's just a regular, weak person with fantasies of being the main character in his story. He doesn't shoot Caitlin because I dont think he's killed anyone in the show if I remember, and he's scared to. He's not some big idealist father with big speeches on morality, he's just a normal dad. In the grenade scene he fantasies about blowing up Silco and being a hero, something he's fantasied about many times, But he doesn't, because he's scared and I think its just for his own life. While watching this character I keep thinking of an episode from Ghost in the Shell: stand alone anime called S2 ep2 Well-fed Me. I think your solutions, especially with the daughter just tries to put too much emphasis on characters who are just Normal, Everyday, 9 to 5 characters. It's hard to fully explain my thoughts like this but I hope my rambling makes some kind of sense. Love the video essays
Agree
I was honestly rooting for Markus the whole time and really wanted him to get redemption. He was actually one of my favourites. I like how you see he really wanted to do good and sacrifice himself but couldn’t bring himself to do it. Like what would happen In real life.
and then he dies 😂😂😂😢
I think this character doesn't need to be fixed, because he's good as he is. Your fixes would ruin his arc. His arc is telling to us that doing the right thing is not only about that you know the right path, you also have to do it. He's the character who doesn't have the courage to drive change. And that's what we see through his story.
I'd always thought Marcus was a representation of the mediocrity of the majority of people as compared to the larger-than-life characters in the main cast. Can't kill Cait, can't cut a good deal with Silco like Grayson did, and can't muster up the courage to take Silco out with him. But him being a foil to Cait works so well that I can't believe I didn't notice it before.
One thought on Marcus death scene:
While Powder sings the song in the first scene, Jinx only hums it there. She is no more begging for a coin from Piltover citizens, but she is the one bringing death to Piltover enforcers. So, this also portraits Jinx’ evolution and the shifting balance between Piltover and Zaun.
It's funny that I didn't think of it until now, (or maybe it was already talked about and I totally forgot. XD), but Marcus once accused Vander and everyone for "a crime behind every coin that passes through this place". Then Marcus committed the ultimate 'sin' he never thought he'd do: receive blood money which he caused. In that vein, I thought about all of Arcane's characters and realized nearly all them end up committing the exact thing they feared.
Vander became a monster again, Silco sacrificed his cause for love, Vi broke her relationship with her sister, Ekko fell for the Powder in Jinx, Caitlyn couldn't save Piltover and Zaun. Viktor strayed from his ideal of science to the darker forms of science like his teacher. Jayce's invention, which he had such high hopes for helping people, in his own hands, killed people.
It's amazing how the writing subtly tells you what each character fears and it still hits you like a truck when it happens.
I think Marcus's last words of, "Tell my daughter I'm-" is both deserved and undeserved at the same time.
He died before he could even say his last words :( its realistic but also a little sad. I reckon he wanted to say “Tell my daughter I’m sorry”
@@remedy2174 like damn at least silco got his last words in
My idea to this: There are "great"characters, who influence the story (about all main characters), there are characters, who aren't that great in willpower or influence (and though aren't worth mentioning) and there are characters in the middle, like Marcus, who kinda influnce the whole thing and are not really unimportant enough to not tell about him.
He is literally that, the middleman. His role is imperative for Silcos plan to work, but Marcus as a person is easily replacable.
This was the exact issue that I was facing in my story. Your analyse videos are really informing, I hope you're aware how much of a help these are while also being entertaining
thanks!! happy I can help! :D
Mind blowing when “supporting characters” “support” the main characters and themes of a story and aren’t necessarily the most complicated
The “Martyr” comment read a little different to me. Marcus see himself as a kind of slow martyr, both by trying to imitate his mentor with an incomplete understanding of her relationship of the undercity, and his working with Silco being viewed as a necessity.
Marcus does not see himself as a man of privilege living a good life, he sees the reality that everything he has is contingent on satisfying Silco. He does not view being sheriff as an honor, but a burden he must carry, lest someone else be forced to. There’s a lot of weird, twisted feelings about his inferiority to Grayson and his being beholden to Silco.
So I think that’s what Silco means when he dares him to pull the pin, that Marcus imagines himself the one thing stopping Silco from taking over; a suffering, silent protector, and Silco dares him to make it more than just talk.
Marcus' character is so bad that he's a good character. He's good at making you hate him and really appreciate every other character. Every time he came on screen, I felt nothing but pure hatred for him. For how he screws over the investigations into Zaun, separates Vi and Jinx, does nothing meaningful, and always complains. He feels real and compelling in all the wrong ways a person can be.
"Does nothing meaningful" is a little harsh.
He saved Vi's life, and he hid all of Silco's shady business from the council. He's a major player in the story
@@tevenpowell8023 I think they might have meant in a more moral sense? He basically upholds the status quo but that kind of always seems to come with the job in Piltover's power dynamics.
Sounds like you didn't pay attention very well at all then.
I think you might need a rewatch Marcus is one the most internally conflicted and sympathetic characters
His character feels like the 'normal man in a special world' kind of character, he's trying to be special like his peers, put into this situation unwillingly, tries to, wants to, and even IMAGINES himself being a hero and sacrificing himself to prove a point, but is always held back by something and unfortunately remains a 'useless' person with no closure or redemption til the end. His character feels the most relatable to me because he is what I fear of being, my goals in life is to end up doing something big, something impressive and make the people I care about happy and proud of me and redeem myself for all my mistakes but my fear is failing to meet those expectations and accomplish nothing to the end of mine, or their lives.
When you consider what Markus is supposed to represent... I'm kinda glad they left him a bit underdeveloped.
He got exactly the right amount of screen time. Only used to further the plot.
Think about it... Every time Markus appeared on screen the storyboard drastically changes in some way. New stakes are revealed or power changes hands or at least implies it might be getting ready to.
Markus is vital to move the story forward as an essential and arguably the primary tool of our main antagonist (Silco)... and protagonist (Jayce) at times. As well as heading up the force of sworn enemies of the entire undercity, including the majority of the cast in this threeway battle royal.
I'm inordinately fond of Marcus, even with the reasons you describe, and I think this video you made is REALLY strong. Arcane is one of the best written ANYTHING I've seen in years, and seeing someone else ALSO analyze it with respect to economy of storytelling. I think Marcus serves his purpose - exactly how you described. I never saw the Caitlyn/Marcus parallel, too! so that rocks. Thank you king.
I think you miss one angle of Marcus, and that is his role as as a warning about the consequences of complacency and corrupt, mirroring the complacency of Heimerdinger and the corruption of the council.
I feel like Markus represents the average enforcer. Raised ti believe the under city is corrupt and evil. Fights them. Slowly becomes that corruption and realizing how far he has fallen before dying. I honestly like Marcus. Because every other character in the show has a story of growth. Whether that growth be for better or worse. It’s something enduring or something ti cry over. Marcus however atleast to me represents most of us. As we get older we realize the folly of our actions, see how foolish we were and the hurt we’ve caused at times. But do we ever change? Do we ever have a moment of triumph where we grow beyond ourselves? No, we do not. For most of us we live our lives the same way till our death bed, and for others such as Marcus it’s cut short.
Marcus is one of my favorite character, so much more appealing to me than Caitlyn or even Ekko, he's that guys that believe in what he does and is really ambitious, but he's clearly wrong and don't know what he's doing, once he realize it, it's too late, i won't call him a coward because that's what most people would do at that point, he had great ambition, but not anymore, he's afraid and full of regret, and he looks miserable
you said he didn't kamikaze on Silco because of his daugther, but i think he was just afraid to die, that's not an easy thing to do, and again, he looks like a coward for an anime character, but this would be the most common reaction you would have in real life...
i really like this way to write "human" character, it's very important to have this character reminding what it is to be normal/nothing exceptional
Marcus being a bad character was genius because they used him right, he's human and realistic in some ways, so that lack of uniqueness makes him versatile for his position.
I think Marcus is still a great character
Marcus is definitely unlikable. But I like what he adds to the world of Arcane.
I love your analysis videos - they are very insightful and help put into words how I feel about Arcane. But I don't think my opinions on anything or any of the characters have changed. Despite Jinx being my favourite character I can easily relate to, I can very much relate to Mel's act 3 arc. There are so many good characters in Arcane, but Jinx and Mel stood out more to me.
I think it's important to distinguish between a *Bad* character and a *Flat* character. Characters are, ultimately, tools for telling a story. Sometimes the best tool isn't a deep, complex character with a dynamic arc: sometimes it's a brick in a wall.
Marcus couldn't shoot Cait like all those reasons, but also because his weakness couldn't let him be responsible for this like he feels for Grayson, it's conflict, weakness and regret and all that. It's his bad character traits conflicting, as opposed to any good traits rising, it is specifically his bad traits that lead to this hesitation.
I’m literally so in love with Marcus - yes he’s a bad person and he did bad things and he should’ve killed Silco but he genuinely felt bad about what he did. He recognized what he did
he was so ambitious, when he looks at Caitlyn, he see what he wanted to be before he got stuck into his own mess, forced to get a little more corrupted everyday, he's the most miserable character on the show and i love it
In regards to the “Can’t shoot Cait” scene, I think it’s actually handled super well, and the only thing they could’ve changed to unify that opinion would be to have a quick flash of Greyson’s dead body (maybe a flash of his daughter too). The funeral scene shows he deeply respects who she was and what she was able to do. A deal was struck between her and Vander, and it prevented a war, kept mutual respect between the pair, with neither side being a puppet to the other. “She was a good woman.” On the bridge it seems as if he is seeing Greyson in Cait, and the only way to save his daughter is to kill not just a good cop, but “a good woman.” He sees his failures catch up to him, and he’s struggling because he has to go against his intentions: being a good man, a hero, and a good father.
The Martyr line is about how Marcus feels he is falling on his sword to protect piltover by working with silco. He views it (even if its a lie he tells himself) as a sacrifice for the greater good, for his daughter.
I think Marcus is really human. He attempts arcs but fails - in fails to comprehend, attempts to correct don't work. So many people have great ideas and plans to improve themselves and the world around them, and fail.
Arcane is a masterpiece, I'm shocked, how such a gem exists in a sea of mediocrity.
I feel like Marcus is deeply underappreciated as people rarely mention him, and is recieving more hate than he actually deserved.
I honestly felt like the unlikeability of Marcus was what made him so interesting. Ultimately his purpose of existing was to set up Caitlyn taking the sheriff role later, and that's it, but I also think his general place in the story will pay off later as well. I suspect his daughter is going to be a character we see more of and she's going to be a supporting character of her own. That will retroactively add more value to Marcus as he's helping set up the character she's going to be as well. That naturally makes him more compelling, we just can't see the full payoff of his presence yet.
I don't think Marcus is a character that needs to be fixed, he is, in his own way... perfect. In a show with so many super-characters capable of unbelievable things, Marcus is very much a realistic character. In real life, you often get into situation you can't control, and the average person will often times not be capable of changing the whole situation to his liking, because unlike movie characters, the average person isn't a super hero. I think Marcus is exactly that, a perfect average real life person. he tries to do his best for his own goals, not realizing how damning his actions are until it is too late. Later he realizes what is happening and what he is, but is still unable to change the course, self-preservation, ego, whatever it is that is holding him, he's become a prisoner of his past faults. And I think that's very relatebla, I can imagine how many average everyday people feel the same stuck in their lives, granted the average real person isn't intertwined in such a high stake political situation, so it's different in that way, of course, but the concept of a single character and his struggle, I think, is what makes Markus relatable in a way. I also think it makes the world feel more realistic, despite it being a magical fantasy world.
One thing I'm not sure of is the idea that Marcus is "a regular crooked cop". His first deal with Silco is that of an informant telling the police about a group of fugitives, pretty standard. After Graysons death he saves Vi and reestablishes an uneasy version of the peace with Vander, but with Silco as a counterpart, which is more taxing than it was with Vander. He is Grayson but his counterpart forces him to become rougher and once his daughter comes into the picture he can be blackmailed. I don't think he was as bad as he started. He only seems to look up to Grayon after he takes over her position and the dealings, he doesn't seem to look down upon the Zaunites (at least not as obvious.) His hesitation to shoot Caitlyn to me seemed to be more linked with his love and affection for his subordinates, which made him nearly break the peace with Silco. I might be reading more into him but to me Marcus seems to be a man with a naive view of justice who believed the anti Zaun propaganda, made a mistake and spent his life trying to restore what he inadvertently helped destroy.
The story behind this channel is so surprising!! Glad things worked out, you’re making me appreciate the show a lot more (I LOVED the first three episodes but then fell off it a bit, these make it appreciate it more)
I think you could argue that Marcus is the viewer put into the world.
If we are being honest with ourselves, I think that's how most of us would be in the world of Arcane. A glory hound trying to prove ourselves and live up to the greatness of Piltover, driven by prejudice towards the Undercity. Not completely being a bad guy, just getting in way over our head and spiraling downwards until the end.
I know we all like to think of ourselves as special, but in reality? I think, if we had to be honest, Marcus is how most of us would be if we were born in Piltover, unfortunately.
I have a good feeling that Marcus' daughter will play a role later in the show and that might shine a different light on his character.
i don't think so, all character have pretty much the age they are supposed to have so there shouldn't be another considerable time skip, meaning she'll stay a kid forever
I think the best thing to do to fix Marcus within the scene while not robbing focus from Jinx would be to enhance the parallel to Grayson. Knowing the full picture, I would have him aim his gun at Silco during Grayson's death scene, but he doesn't pull the trigger which is the single worst thing he's done. Then when it comes to pointing the gun at Kaitlynn he refuses to pull the trigger again and this time it's the single best thing he's done.
I was sad they killed off Marcus, I thought they could have done SOMETHING more with him. Then I realised the reason he was killed off was so Caitlyn could become sheriff, and I’m unsure how I feel about that.
Before I even start watching this video I want to say: I love Marcus.
After I saw the video I want to say:
He might not be a great character, but he's very human. And I believe we are supposed to feel exactly that, because the animation does a LOT of facial expressions on him. A lot. I kept rewinding to see it all. There's something about it.
He did a bad thing and that thing kept snowballing into worse and worse things that he was unable to escape from. I feel like this could be relatable to a lot of people. Not knowing any better, having opinions that you later find out were bad, effects of echo chambers or trusting bad people, making enormous mistakes.
And then not resolving any of that, not letting him to do better, is like a punch to the guts.
And I love it. Damn, I hate it.
Your reductive logic is simply to hide the fact you did not like him. That is subjective, as are most of your arguments. This entire season was "show do not tell" and Marcus, like all the other characters encompasses that perfectly. The fact that you do not like him should tell you something. Poorly written character engender apathy, not a 14 minute video with 28 minutes of narration compressed to fit in it.
Woah I disagree with everything you said. Though I'm not surprised as you contradict yourself plenty of times. Despite all that, it was good to see a video like that, made me laugh and proved once again how great Arcane is!
There is nothing to fix or add in Marcus' death scene on the bridge.
Marcus' "mercy" for Vi (when he arrests her rather than let her be killed by Silco) and Caitlyn (when he knows if she comes back to Piltover she'll have proof that he's corrupt) is entirely motivated by the same thing that prevents him from pulling the pin on the grenade in Silco's office: his love for his daughter. He presumably witnesses Vander's death, and sees Vi and Jinx split apart, and cannot bring himself to kill her knowing he'd be killing somebody's daughter who has been freshly orphaned. Consider it a father's respect. He can't bring himself to shoot Caitlyn, because once again he is reminded of his own daughter and cannot bare the thought that Caitlyn's father would be as devastated as he would be given the same circumstance, which is fresh in his mind as Silco blackmailed him and tacitly threatened his own daughter so that Caitlyn/Vi wouldn't reach Piltover. If he pulls the trigger on Caitlyn, he's proving Silco right that he's a coward who can't martyr himself for a cause greater than himself.
Thus, in the end, Marcus' death isn't as meaningless or tragic as it may seem, but rather his death, while unexpected and not intended by him, serves to allow him to martyr himself for a greater cause (Vi and Caitlyn reaching Piltover and exposing Silco). It is both a trivial death that highlights Jinx' in that moment transforming into the monster that Marcus always thought Zaunites were, and exists as the penalty for his reluctance to be proactive. Had he not hesitated to pull the trigger on Caitlyn and Vi and walk away, he may have lived to scheme another day, but left to forever live in fear of Silco's underhanded threats on his and his daughter's life. He changed his and other's fate by staying true to his character of hesitating when it mattered most, of being a coward who could do nothing to actively change anything.
Hi Schnee. Just wanted to pop in, a year late, to say I'm so grateful for these videos. Your keen mind for analysis is one of a kind, and I feel like I have to watch each video five times to get everything out that you put into them! Seriously, no one does story analysis as well as you do, and I'm hooked.
On the one hand I see what you're saying but I think this concept of "bad character" is reductionist. A good character doesn't have to be a good person. Marcus is an incredible asshole but is a great character. Because he is used effectively and I'd personally disagree about him being satisfying, compelling, and appealing. An asshole who is killed by the same force he helped unleash is just desserts and was very satisfying, not to mention how it relates to Jinx. A compelling character is someone who you want to see and find it difficult to pull your eyes away from. Idk about you but I was certainly compelled by his actions with the grenade, with his confrontations with Silco and his interactions with Vi and the others on the bridge. And appealing, personally I'd argue that this is the flat out wrong word. Evocative would be better, your judging on if the character makes you feel something. If they have moments to proform that show off who they are what they are about. And Marcus definitely does that.
I didn't say a good character has to be a good person, but I do appreciate the alternative definition you offered. My four characteristics are based on what I think can chiefly carry a character alone. I feel compelled by characters who are unnuanced but interesting in their characterization, or are unlikeable but have well developed arcs, or are uninteresting and have no arcs but are very likeable, etc. Even though independently Marcus can't stand on his own like the other characters can, Marcus served the story well, and I think you're right that the part he played ended up being more compelling from that vantage point.
@@schnee1 Marcus doesn't stand on his own, but he's not written to, either. He made a bad call that put him in a box. Everything that came after was this average man realizing his mistakes and trying to find a way out of them before the walls closed in, which never happened. He evokes plenty of emotions of regret and frustration, often used not just as a foil to Caitlyn, as you pointed out, but to anyone whose ideals are turned upside down once the veil of naivety is stripped away. That doesn't take away that you make a lot of good points in your video, but respectfully, I think you missed the point of his characterization and his role as a tragic support character being used as a sounding board to represent that sometimes you get into situations you simply can't get out from under, regardless of their ability to recognize their own faults. Too little, too late. It's the entire basis around why the character is empathized with.
@@LockeNarshe Schnee makes great videos with helpful writing advice but I feel like he often misses the point in a lot of his videos and also either over analyses and forces connections which aren’t there or under analyses/ doesn’t address certain things as well as I just don’t agree with some of his definitions and some opinions he presents in his videos just seem wrong e.g “Jinx being morally grey, is she a hero or villain?” (She’s clearly an obvious villain who just has sympathetic traits). Or his opinion that Mylo is insecure and takes it out Powder, as opposed to him clearly being the only one who spoke up about how Powder was weighing them down and faced no consequences because Vi was showing favouritism as her sister.
But that’s fine I suppose he’s only one guy and it’s not like he’s the one correct authority on writing/ Arcane and it’s nice to have your own opinions and disagree sometimes.
When you started listing how Marcus and Caitlyn are opposites my jaw hit the floor. I never noticed these details and I never would have known such obvious things like that.
Because they’re not lol
He really had to twist a lot to fit
You have imo the best analysis videos on Arcane. Your editing, the pace, and the depth of analysis are all amazing, but my favorite is how you incorporate fundamentals of storytelling into your justifications. I feel like I learn something new with every video.
What is inspiring about your story is that just taking action from curiosity and inspiration enough times, the right pebble starts rolling down a mountain and pretty soon its a snowball that defines the course of your life. I'm not a writer and never think I will be, but I'm learning about human nature and by extension myself and my own motivations. Thank you for what you do. You're my favorite youtube channel and I'm so excited to follow your videos and your progress to create more amazing content
How do you find these things? This was extremely good, one of the characters I think of when Arcane comes to mind is Marcus. I never wondered why before this video but it's like you brought everything forthwith and just makes me love the show even more. PLEASE keep making these videos; the way you present them and then back them up with actual scenes and plot from the show just further bolsters my feelings for it. Your videos are incredible
I would love to see Marcus used as a way to develop his daughter's character. I would have used his death as the catalyst to push her to want to become an enforcer and do good. I would have her living with Caitlyn and her family out of some altruistic sense of obligation to Marcus. She would grow up idolizing Caitlyn who is now the sheriff and have her believing her father was just like Caitlyn, but Caitlyn not having the heart to tell her the truth.
I would have loved it if her mother turns out to be Singed's daughter who like Viktor has some sort of terminal illness and was being experimented on by Singed with his "mutation" to keep her from dying. I would have Viktor help Singed using Hextech to bring her back in some sort of variation of his "glorious evolution." Which caused Marcus' hatred of Zaun; and he was using his relationship with Silco to get closer to Singed to enact some kind of revenge. In the end she find out her mother is alive as Orianna, but maybe has little to no memory of her due to the experimentation. Not sure if this would even make sense given Orianna's actual lore--maybe just my over active imagination running wild here.
Honestly I would see this as her maybe becoming an antagonist. Her fathers mentor died because of Zaun. Her father died because of Zaun. Someone who resents the undercity with all her heart.
@@Mediados You could have a James Potter situation where she (like Harry) sees her father as infallible because she never saw him for what he was because Marcus only ever acted morally and justly in her presence. And then as the story unravels, she's forced to confront the dichotomy of hatred (for Zaun) and love (for her father) that keeps her from seeing the truth, the big picture.
Absolutely love your analysis and style, fantastic videos, really well paced to get a fix of this deep dive into the story without over labouring points. I’ve got so much out of them, so much deeper understanding and makes me want to find this sort of thing for books and films I’ve watched many times and see what I’ve missed. Love it!
Challenge:
Keep going till season 2 hahaha
Marcus is the most normal man in Arcane. He is not special, he has no particular skills, he just stumbled into the position of Sheriff.
He also probably had to raise a newborn by himself since there's no wife in the picture. Can you imagine S1 Marcus raising a 6month old?
@@AIartificalIntellige S1 Marcus was barely an adult himself.
Your description of what makes Arcane's charters interesting is RELLY shallow and completely missing who the actual charters are for a reductive vison of there concept concept, you don't seem to know what your talking about
So making a character care about their daughter is generic and bad character writing? What a joke...
This man made a whole video telling writers to use the mojang method: they’re not glitches, they’re “features”
…And I love it
Love this video!
Here’s a idea. Perhaps a different scene after the six Enforcers’ funeral. Marcus can glance at Greyson’s statue. Cut to him and his daughter, some time later, in front of it. His daughter can play a game of Enforcer vs Fissers (Undercoty people) with dolls since she’s waiting for her Dad. Marcus stares blatantly at them, maybe remembering his dirty deal that killed Greyson to end scene.
I think Marcus is crucial to show realism. He's not strong or smart, he lives a life with his child and he's not a good person. The fact that there's nothing interesting about him is what makes him interesting when compared against the main characters.
The way I viewed his death was more of a subversion. Marcus keeps trying to be a martyr and wants to do the right thing but he keeps failing, so the audience expects him to eventually make some big heroic sacrifice or save someone or anything, but he dies unceremoniously on the bridge. To me, the point was that if the show was more storybook Marcus would eventually do that, but it’s not. He passed up the opportunity to do good one too many times and so he dies unredeemed. He doesn’t deserve or get some big moment of redemption, because in real-life that doesn’t happen.
The part that makes me think is when Marcus grabs Vi at the end of ep3 and says "if he sees you he'll kill you", but then takes her to jail. After the time skip, we see a change in Marcus. He's less of a villain and more of a hostage. Stuck in a situation he has no control over. I think his character arch is very subtly play, because we do see a morality struggle build in his character, but he's buried so deep he can't get out. So now I see him more as another victim of the system, but also much more that I don't have time to get into bc I'm m driving to work
You came just in time, a lot of the early content about Arcane is drawn out and not really elucidating anything about the story. I respect a lot that there's a linear correlation between how long your videos are and how much it makes me think about the show in a new way. The information is delivered quickly and succinctly without filler, love it. That's why people keep coming back :)
Marcus is definitely one of my favorite characters in the show, he's not a bad character. You just keep saying he's uncompelling or uninteresting but you didn't really give anything convincing as to why he isn't. You gave examples of other character archetypes, but even those can be uninteresting as well.
You can't always be original, and characters will always follow tropes, and even if a trope is common or overused, it doesn't matter where and in what medium they're used. It matter how well they're written.
You might feel like Marcus is uninteresting, but that is personal to you; he's not bad. He's incredibly well written up until his tragic ending.
8 likes for this? - a shooting match calling the other side's views subjective - I lose faith in humanity sometimes. He argued his point. What you actually disagree with is what defines a well written character. He thinks originality is a requirement, you don't.
I think tropes are sometimes fine but often harmful, hence the rule of thumb exists. Why "fine sometimes"? - Tropes are an efficient shortcut that conveys information by relying on things the audience already knows. This allows you to tell more compact stories and makes it easier to get across meaning/plot etc, example: "it rains during a sad scene while sad music plays" is cliche but gets the point across quickly and there is more room for other things, Why "often Harmful"? - It is near impossible to get immersed in a story when constantly reminded of other similar stories that also did the same trope but better.
The take away here is that you grow to hate tropes and cliches the more you watch and the older you get, young people don't mind them because they haven't seen enough to get distracted by them. Other perspective on this also exists, and I welcome them, I want them! but it's so hard to find them when people just creates sides. Super depressing.
@@wanderingwatcher3981 Yea, I would definitely disagree with the idea that a well written character means they have to be original. That standard kind of sucks because storytelling is incredibly derivative, most stories follow established tropes in one way or another if you boil it down. From what you're saying, you just sound like you, and people who have listened to alot of stories (everyone literally has), have a fairly high bar when it comes to suspension of disbelief, and if anything seems familiar to you or them, it automatically takes you out of the story, which honestly I have a hard time believing.
I think if you find stories, that has tropes and elements you enjoy that are executed well in the story, it doesn't matter if they're original, you'll still find enjoyment out of them.
An original character does not always mean a well written character, and an unoriginal character does not always mean a poorly written character.
It's all about execution.
@@Tripleat117 I agree with everything you are saying. It doesn't matter if you are combining known elements in a creative way or using new elements, both can create compelling stories. I'd actually go further and say that people tend to prefer a new mix of "ingredients" they already like over alien experiences. Safer, somewhat nostalgic and more relevant to current topics. However, I think there is more to it.
I think Arcane's writing is outstanding because it takes elements or agendas we have grown tired of and puts them in a new perspective, moving the public discussion forward. I still remember how I was on guard with Vi at the start until she was the only one out of the gang losing in the slow-mo brawl. Sure, she's an unrealistic character (hate to say it but females suck at fist fighting) but the trope isn't left there, it's expanded upon, it's integrated with other elements of her personality in a way that actually makes a lot of sense for a female character, I think this makes all the difference, it justifies suspending disbelief. In a vacuum I hate "females can be fighters too", but enjoy it if used with thought together with other elements to create a compelling character. Many of my all time favorite characters are female fighters (nuanced perspectives and unique challenges) so it really is all about the execution.
So, it's not about the trope itself. It's when it's used raw I think it's bad. It is bad in the same way showing the exact same scene over and over doesn't create a good movie. The movie here is my personal journey absorbing different perspectives and stories. New stimulation is why I watch. I've already processed the trope in it's most basic form and so get nothing more out of seeing it again. Sure, if it was something I enjoyed or learned something from I will still get some nostalgic enjoyment out of it, respect it and maybe even comfort watch. But it´ll never have me praise it's writing.
Arcane consistently goes the extra mile with it's tropes, never leaving them at face value and I think that more then anything else is the secret sauce behind it's acclaim. All things you could get hung up on have been expanded upon or fixed compared to it's basic overdone form. It's so consistent across the entire show I'd be shocked if it wasn't a guiding principle for the project. The only people I've meet having (valid) issues with the show have been those unable to get much out of it. For example old folk, less adapt at juggling multiple locations/characters, unable to pick up on nuance in action and fast cuts, etc.
I feel like the way you discuss and view writing really diminishes from how incredible almost every facet of this show is.
Something I wondered about when you were talking about his daughter is that maybe she's going to be used in later seasons? I don't know if it's something the writers really care about, but it would certainly be interesting to see a kind of parallel to Vi and Powders parents death on the bridge but with a child from Piltover. Probably not in a big role, because the Piltover vs Zuan arc's are meant to mostly rap up by the end of season 2, but a little scene where we see how she's sad about her fathers death. Or maybe she could come back in later seasons. Mostly likely we won't see her again but she would be a good tool for the writers to think about using.
At first Marcus was bad, but he came to learn, to understand. He became so much more human to me. He started respecting Grayson, who he had no respect for, because he finally understood.
He was not noble enough to "be a beacon of hope", but he still was a symbol as head of the enforcers. Even then though, it feels like everything he did, he did only for his daughter. Trying to make something right not for himself, but for her. When he felt down he went to her, he was hopeful, and glad, then he saw Silco and: paralyzed. She was his all.
It felt that way when I saw him and his daughter. Marcus saw her as the one and only good thing in his life full of wrongs. Which also makes his last words to me at least, all the more heartbreaking, because not even that came out right.
Really interesting video!
You should make a video on what you think the logical conclusion for Vi and Jinx's arc is. I've seen arguments for vi killing jinx, jinx killing vi, them both dying, them reconciling, etc.
Personally, I think that having them reconcile, at least in some way, seems to make the most sense. They seem to be parallels of Vander and Silco, and we all know how that one ended. It would make sense for them to somehow learn from Vander and Silco and find a way to make up, though I do see that with jinx in her current state, that would still be hard. But it just makes sense from a character perspective for Vi as well, seeing as her arc is probably learning to not solve everything with her fists?
I would love to know what you think!
I think it is possible for them to reconcile. They both get too emotional. Strong emotions cloud just judgement. Jinx need a stoic person in her life who would serv as therapist and mediator. I think Blitzcrank could perform this role.
I think Marcus's story is fairly interesting and fairly nuanced with the fact that he is trying to protect his kid and he doesn't know what choice to make. The character himself not a whole lot most of his interestingness comes from his story of protecting his kid
I swear your videos have helped me with writing effectively more than any other actual writing youtuber/writing advice I've ever gotten.
I liked Marcus, from when we first met him he wasn't hesitant, he was confident in his hate, his speech, his arrogance but as we watched he started second guessing himself, getting nervous and unsure of his actions. I can understand the "good" and "bad" character writing discussion but I also believe your video shows in the end of the day he fits in the good category. My reasoning is that I don't believe he needed to be special to be a "good" character. We as people do not all stand out and at the end of the day we can be fairly one track minded, from believing propaganda to developing prejudice based on said propaganda, I think Marcus as a character showed that well. If you isolate the character you're taking him away from the story and that would be taking him away from his very purpose, he is a character meant to build onto the story as you showed in the video. He's also the face of the enforcers as a whole where Caitlyn seems to be a minority if not the last enforcer who sees people as equals. Just watching this character I can picture a normal person going through his life choices. His whole work life is chaotic but then he also is a single father where that alone puts in my mind that his personal life is chaotic too. At the end of the day he is completely outshined by the rest of the colorful and interesting cast of characters but that's a tough bar to reach especially when he was never meant to be anything more than average.
Also don't know if you read any of this but I love your video, the way you explain them is fantastic and it's all very thought provoking for me. I hope you continue I'm excited to see how far you go
What about this: Marcus can't shoot Caitlyn because she's a Kiramman. At this point, at least in his mind I think he's fine as far as his job goes. He held up the blockade at the bridge, he did everything Jayce asked him to, he shot an firelight member (leader), doesn't matter because his plan is to blame the firelights on all the terrorism anyways. And he doesn't know Jinx is coming yet.
Ofcourse, even holding a gun to Caitlyn will get him fired on Cassandra's and Jayce's behalf, as both councilors have been shown to want to protect her at all costs. But he doesn't necessarily realise that. However, SHOOTING a kiramman? That will get him executed, imprisoned, expelled, whatever the worst punishment is that Piltover has. At that point, he will have done the same thing as he would have with the explosive in Silco's office, but for a far less righteous cause: he would have effectively made Ren an orphan.
youre right!
Marcus is a good character. You are wrong lol
I really like that Marcus tries really hard at the end to shoot Caitlyn but he cant bring himself into actually doing it.
really interesting take on him! i don't think that he's a bad character as in poorly written, he's just flat. stories need flat underdeveloped side characters too. they have their purposes; not every side character can be as rounded as a main character. but i like how you highlighted the significance he has in the show as a foil
You say he's a bad character but what you really mean in the video is that he's shallow. Nothing that he does contradicts who he is as a character, and not every character in a story needs to be or even should be complex. Some people are motivated by simple predictable things, that doesn't make them worse people any more than a character motivated by simple, predictable things makes them a bad character. The best argument you brought up for him being a bad character was his decision to not shoot Caitlyn but I think that decision is just a result of his guilt/regret for being a bad cop while Caitlyn has been trying to be a good cop. Emotions aren't always the most logical thing, so him feeling hesitant to blast her in cold blood isn't anything out of the ordinary. It's not like we've been shown he's a ruthless killer earlier in the show. On the contrary, we see that he's pretty cowardly, shying away from any conflict that might cause him problems in the short term (resulting in his long term demise). Yes he's a bully to the people of Zaun, but again he's not a murderer, and Caitlyn isn't from Zaun anyways. Bad title and misuse of terminology, but overall the premise and video were good. 8/10
I love all of the points you make, but I do have to disagree with something. I don't see Marcus as a bad character. I see him as an extremely flawed person, but also a very real one.
I don’t know why I laughed out loud when Schnee called Marcus’s daughter little Marcus
So glad to see you point out the parallel with jinx and the song at the bridge, that is one of my favorite moments but very few seems to notice it.
I.... disagree. Marcus has more than enough nuance to his character and it's pretty damn obvious. How anyone could come to this conclusion about him, I have no idea.
These character analyses always let me see arcane in a new way. They show how deep and complex some of these characters are or how they fit into the story and I think there are still more unappreciated ones like Singed (the doctor) wich havent got any attention yet.
Marcus' daughters possible age matches with the duration of the time skip. So maybe his wife had died in a childbirth around the same time he was first introduced, explaining his constant rage and impulsivity.
The way I interpreted Marcus being unable to shoot Caitlyn is sorta as a whole embodiment of his situation.
He shoots Caitlyn, and then what? She's a councilors daughter and the Kiraman family would 100% investigate her death, even privately if so. Not to mention Jayce knows, or has a hunch, that Marcus is corrupt. So he can't shoot her.
But at the same time, he can't let her go, because of Silco's explicit order and his threat against his daughter. So he can't let her go.
In the end he was trapped in a situation of his own making. Jinx had to swoop in and "resolve" his indecision; his fate once again determined by others hands rather than his own.